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The American Public Supports Torture … Because They Don’t Know THIS
New polls show that – even after the Senate torture report showed that torture is unnecessary and doesn’t work – Americans still think torture is necessary and works.
Why?
Because they still don’t know the truth … because the mainstream media has hidden it from them. Specifically, Americans still believe that torture works to produce helpful intelligence that helps keep us safe.
Americans wouldn’t support torture if they knew the following facts, proven beyond any doubt:
- All of the top interrogation experts say that torture does NOT produce actionable intelligence … even in a “ticking time bomb” scenario
- Torture doesn’t reduce terrorism. In fact, the opposite is true: it simply creates new terrorists and terrorist groups, including ISIS
- Most of those tortured were completely innocent of any crime. Children were tortured, too
- The specific type of torture used by the U.S. is famous for producing FALSE evidence
- People have known for thousands of years that torture – stripped of the torturer’s lies – is really just a way to create fear … i.e. a form of terrorism. Indeed, America’s recently-leaked criteria for putting people on the terror watchlist says torture is terror (page 47-48):
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- While the mainstream media gives overwhelming coverage to pro-torture guests, those people have a very strong incentive to lie. Specifically, virtually all of them are war criminals under international and U.S. law who are afraid of being prosecuted for their creation and approval of the torture program. Indeed, many are calling for their prosecution, and a former top Air Force interrogator notes that government officials knew they are vulnerable for war crime prosecution:
They have, from the beginning, been trying to prevent an investigation into war crimes.
- The Nazis used the same “Enhanced Interrogation” techniques the U.S. did … and even CALLED IT the same thing
- The Founding Fathers were strongly opposed to torture … and enshrined a torture ban in the Constitution
- This is not the first time America tortured. Americans tortured Filipinos over a hundred years ago as a way to terrorize the population into submission. CIA torture in Vietnam was so severe that most prisoners died during torture; and the torture was so horrific that those who didn't die during torture usually killed themselves soon after. Americans also taught the leaders of other countries how to torture
- The detainees held up as “poster boy” justifications for torture actually prove the opposite
(Note: Other polls reach very different conclusions about Americans' acceptance of torture.)
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US Voters don't understand the Corporate System = Military System = Government System = Fascist System... And they don't know Squat about Dirty Wars. Time for US Voters to learn about "Dirty Wars".
At Least in terms of Organization, Hierarchy, Secrecy, Compartmentalization, Fealty, Patriarchy, and Authoritarianism.
And I'm not even a student of Political Science or anything related...
Torture is limited by Compartmentalization. You can Torture 1000 people... but the one Board of Directors member that has the power to call for an action... is the only one that can reveal the power above him or the group that he is aligned with.
I recognize that if you have had losses like unit members, family or neighbors... if you have been fighting for a year... if you feel agitated for a long period of paranoia, fighting, attacks, clear enemies moving to kill, jail, kidnap, bury, or charge with crimes your people... like in a Dirty War... you will react differently to Torture and will plan for Compartmentalization.
- People at War, People Suffering from a "Dirty War" are in a different mind state than Herb d'Olay who is sitting in the USA... Innocent people are frequently Tortured by Governments or Military Coups for no reason by a Stalin type Paranoia
Really good post by TrulyStupid.
TrulyStupid
The majority of the American public don't want to believe that torture doesn't work just like they don't want to beleve that building 7 was a controlled demolition... the implications of the truth will shatter their cultural foundation.
For most the response is cognitive dissonance... like believing that torture makes us safer, at the same time believing that we have never been more at risk than today. Its obvious that the war on terror , is a slogan... not an achievable military objective, we have turned it into the war of terror against the civilian population of both America and it enemies. (which change from day to day). Only the brain in deep denial of the obvious truths can process the ever changing narrative.. Egypt is our friend, no our enemy..ditto Iraq, Iran,Russia North Korea, China, Ukraine etc... etc.. etc..
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
The majority of the American public don't want to believe that torture doesn't work just like they don't want to beleve that building 7 was a controlled demolition... the implications of the truth will shatter their cultural foundation.
For most the response is cognitive dissonance... like believing that torture makes us safer, at the same time believing that we have never been more at risk than today. Its obvious that the war on terror , is a slogan... not an acheivable military objective, we have turned it into the war of terror against the civilian population of both America and it enemies. (which change from day to day). Only the brain in deep denial of the obvious truths can process the ever changing narrative.. Egypt is our friend, no our enemy..ditto Iraq, Iran,Russia North Korea, China, Ukraine etc... etc.. etc..
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
Even if torture is effective at getting accurate information, if the state can't use this information to conclude the conflict then the effort has failed.
We've been at this for 25 years. What do they need, another 50?
Is it any wonder why people hate the US.
Associate Justice Robert Jackson would have glumly hung Mr. Richard Cheney and many others in the Bush Administration had they come before his court in 1945. Even if we were to assume that torture may be more effective in generating actionable intelligence than humane treatment (yes, I know, there is no evidence it does or did), using torture to further the nation's aims is immoral and diminishes the moral authority of the state. Given the state's incredible power for violence, ethical limits are about the only thing that keeps us out of those dreaded FEMA camps, or much, much worse. It is important that if We the People wish to remain free that We press for moral leadership. A good start would be a grand jury or board of inquiry with the power to indict the perpetrators. I note here on this blog that is is quite clear that loyalty can damage one's moral compass. I encourage everyone to be loyal to one's self first, then family - and be damned slow to allow yourself to become loyal to anything or anyone else - it clouds your judgement.
A slippery slope. First you start with secret prisons, then you move to waterboarding, and stress positions but that doesn't produce results so then you go to Ass feeding....The the sicker individuals in charge decide, "Hey, lets try sodomy, and chaining a guy to the floor douse him with water until he freezes to death." Next thing you know, because no one sees you, or seems to care what you do, then you go with the heavy shit.
Torture, first and formost, in inhuman and immoral. The people of our country should know that....because they claim to be mostly Christians.
What we give out as a country we will get back in the form of revenge killings, bombings, and retaliations of the kind.
It will never solve anything, it will never help anything, it will never produce the results you want, without an even bigger backlash.
All involved should be imprisoned for a GOOD LONG TIME.
Houston Plumber Mark's Truck Ends Up in the Hands of ISIS:
http://winteractionables.com/?p=17294
The support for torture is not based on reason or logic.
Support is emotionally and culturally based on narcissism, xenophobia, and sadism.
Unfortunately, reason and facts will not suffice to end support for it.
Peruse many of the comments.
Gaining info is just a fabricated excuse, it is a belief held beyond reasonable proof or disproof.
It is impossible to "prove", especially to a paranoid, that no credible "threat" exists even when none do exist.
It is just as impossible to "prove" that torture is bad, is evil, and never "works" or will "work" differently next time.
Even if it were proved certain that torture is only a terror weapon of the state,
many would be OK with that, so long as it were "others" being terrorized.
Emotional support is generated by hubristic impressions of "punishing" the feared "evildoers".
As long as it is the "others" (foreigners, "terrorists", "criminals", some other "minority")
who are the deemed "evil-doers" to be tortured, many will be glad.
Many will feel self-righteous vindication because others are punished,
and 'safer" because they themselves are not being punished.,
Therefore, the unfortunate conclusion is that the majority will gladly support torture despite reason or facts,
(as well as the assassinations, executions, "collateral" killings, etc.)
Well done!
People know torture is used to get false confessions. Americans support it because they don't care.
9/11 was an inside job. So why did we torture people?
I say just saw their heads off like they do ours.
Ridiculous. If I was tortured, or even threatened with it, say, with boiling oil poured judiciously down one of my orifices,
I wouldn't only tell them what they want to know, but sing it.
To say torture doesn't work at all, at any time is preposterous.
To tell me that my dog has been selected for torture, and I have to watch, I'd spill the beans.
If my GF was being tortured I would talk and fast.
How insane to write that torture never works.
This piece is total lie. Why does Tyler keep allowing you to post this nonsense. There aren't many rules here but these kinds of lies masquerading as facts should be grounds for banning.
Comte d'herblay- the reason Tyler alows George to post is because his articles' contentions are backed up with research. Personal testimony based on imagined situations does not really support the argument. Get back to us with concrete examples of when torture has worked. To me it seems you are only really interested in your perception of what torture would do to you and confusing that with the truth. The other glaring take away message from your comment is your dislike for George's articles in general. That we should not believe anything this individual posts seems a lot like what a propagandist might engage with. I am not sure if you have noticed but most ZH readers enjoy critical thinking- try another site. I hear Yahoo readers embrace trolls. If you are paid by the thumbs up it may be a more lucrative venue.
..."backed up with research"? Are you kidding me? Click a link in this article and it takes to to his blog where you can click another link that takes you another one of his blogs where you can click a link that takes you to vanity fair and an article that I suspect he wrote under another pen name.
GW articles are opinions based on previously stated opinion, being sold as FACT. Criticiize him and you will get the down vote.
I don't buy 'research' that goes completely against observed phenomena, common sense, and obvious deduction. I KNOW torture works, not in every case but it works.
To hype his remark by saying it NEVER works is total bullshit, and that isn't trolling it's fact.
You can go ahead and believe it if you choose that's your right. Just as is the right of the flat earth society to think the earth isn't round.
I've proven to you it works citing only myself, but there isn't a poster on here that wouldn't spill the beans including you and george.
Guaranteed torture works.
All George needs do is tell the truth.
"Torture doesn't ALWAYS work", would cover it.
I don't buy 'research' that goes completely against observed phenomena, common sense, and obvious deduction. I KNOW torture works, not in every case but it works.
To hype his remark by saying it NEVER works is total bullshit, and that isn't trolling it's fact.
You can go ahead and believe it if you choose that's your right. Just as is the right of the flat earth society to think the earth isn't round.
I've proven to you it works citing only myself, but there isn't a poster on here that wouldn't spill the beans including you and george.
Guaranteed torture works.
All George needs do is tell the truth.
"Torture doesn't ALWAYS work", would cover it.
So you're responding to a platitude and making the counterfactual by using your own supposed experience if you were ever in that situation to invalidate a generalization.
What is known is that you can't verify any information you get from torture unless you have an outside means of doing so. Which means, in order to know that torturee is telling the truth, you have to figure it out some other way. And if you can verify intelligence another way, then why not use that?
So let me use my logic: torture is NEVER the single datapoint to verify intelligence.
Oh. And there are laws against employing it. So there's that fact.
The Law is not JUSTICE. The LAW is some arbitrarily applied rule of thumb that is bent like a pretzel in so many instances that most real crime is committed in and around the worlds' courthouses.
In the UK you can serve 12 years in prison for murdering a whole family. The LWOP we have in this country is a fucking joke since the liberals took over the courts.
So don't wash over me with LAWS.
George is simply wrong and the dozen or so agreeing with him as well.
All that needs done is to remove the NEVER from the statement and bob's your uncle.
Torture is sometimes the single datapoint to verify a truth. Try it sometime.
Do you know what a platitude is? So he removes "never".
Watch this...
Torture never works.
Torture doesn't work.
There. Removed never.
And yes, sometimes it's used as the single datapoint... to justify a war. And a hundred thousand or so people die or are injurred because of that war. That's what "try it sometime" led to. People who have 3 functioning brain cells knew that would be the outcome before they "try it sometime".
......errata...'
remove "NEVER" works, and substitute "Many Times" works
which is my point.
Again you are using macro examples and I'm not going there since I have no knowledge of it.
I am simply saying that Torture Some times works, Many times works, depending on the variables such as the techniques, the torturee, and the stakes.
If we can't agree on that and that George needs to as well, then let's just move on, you in your certainty and me in mine, george in his, but I will deduce this:
Torture is being used right now to a more or lesser degree, effectually and ineffectually and will continue to be because it produces or confirms truth otherwise not able to be found out.
And it will not be rendered extinct as some seem to think or want to happen.
And that's another fact. George, notwithstanding.
Really, rolling over that fast seems suspicious. "Well, Comte just said he didn't know anything so we should let him go". They will have to interrogate you over the course of a few months and see if the story changes. Then get ahold of your dog or girlfriend, torture them anyway, they might know something. Maybe you know something or someone you don't even know you know about. Besides, your screams help soften up others waiting their turn. You try making up shit to make them stop. Now starts the leading questions and they show you pictures, "Do you know them?" . Thus creating "actionable" evidence to do what they were going to do anyway, with you as the source. Of course it's all legal, even if you are innocent, you can't be let out right away. It might take 5-10 years for it all to blow over. So, as long as your are going to be here a while, lets see if you can be turned into an asset...
So what's a good ratio to torture innocent people if you might have one guilty one? 50 innocent to 1 guilty? Or do you think they all must be guilty of something or they wouldn't be locked up.
All George needs to do is tone it down and admit that Torture doesn't ALWAYS work. But some times, many times it does, and quickly.
You have a very overrated sense of what kinds of pain, and other 'incentives' torturers will use to get the results that are verifiable proven truths.
Torture would never have been employed if it didn't work at least most of the time.
AS I said, there isn't a poster here who won't give it up at the first jab in the tooth nerve with a hot needle. Or even the intention to do so.
Comte, how many foot-soldiers, in the history of warfare, every carried plans that could hasten the defeat of their side? Not one. Knowing where a regiment is located is hardly classified info that could turn the tide. Scant few Generals know plans that could turn the war. How many of them are ever captured? And they usually end up in chateaux drinking champers. Torture is depraved. Those who sanction it are even more depraved. Their end is near. The Cabal is finished!
Torture will be used until the end of time. It works.
You can delude yourself with obscure logic and macro examples of it not working. But to use only one example of some soldier carrying plans that would hasten the defeat of their side is just a bit isolated.
I admit to being 'depraved' insofar as 1) the use of Capital Punishment, preferably using the same means as the killer to execute him or her and 2) torture you to attempt to gain vital information that may not necessarily yield your battle plan, but will provide a truth that I am seeking about something I know you know about that gain my side advantage.
If that be depraved, then realize that I am the LORD and I will strike you down and smite your family if the prize be large enough and prove at least as depraved and more so, than you are.
I believe in taking a Kalashnikov to a knife fight.
So... what if your truth is not what they expect from you... you wouldn't exaggerate or anything if the pounding continued? Oh I get it government intelligence (lol) is the only department without massive fuck ups.
Get the scum of the Earth to stop torture FIRST,
THEN get back to us, you suicidal, sanctimonious traitor.
Czar are you in third grade? Your argument is they started it first. Torture is an affront to humanity and the people must stand against it. Our leaders worldwide have gotten out of control. There are none virtuous that act simply to create a better world for their citizenry. If the general populace of all nations do not unite on certain fronts then there is no hope. We are being dragged into a quagmire of our leaders making and we argue on ZH about who does what? Stand up against torture now or the world will sink into an even uglier place. People must realize that we are on a slippery slope- we are devolving fast. Czar- you are the traitor. You deny humanity while playing into the hands of some sick twisted people who will never be satisfied. They cannot get enough power or money, they play games with your mind to get you to do their dirty work.
Just because a being has arms, legs, eyes and nose, etc. does not make him/her/it, "human".
The second you kill someone, or attempt to, in that split second that you decide, you have become less than human. And deserve everything you get, including me temporarily suspending my own humanity to deal with you. Become a Hyena and I will be a pack of Lions tearing you apart.
There is far too much civility in dealing with Jihadists, Convicted muderers, and the Jewish Mafia on Wall Street.
Hey Czar
Raping children in front of their parents with flashlights dripping with acid must turn you on.
The US government, and all governments, are criminal gangs of murderers, thieves, and thugs.
YOU are a traitor to the principles elaborated in the Declaration of Independence.
Go suck Dick Cheney.
YOU must enjoy the moral relativism that says beheading people is okay but waterboarding those same folks makes the US eeevil.
Go live there, since you haven't yet learned the difference, moron.
"YOU must enjoy the moral relativism that says beheading people is okay but waterboarding those same folks makes the US eeevil."
An interesting false comparison. Being opposed to torture does not mean that beheading is OK.
OK Czar- then you demand the U.S. sever all relations with Saudi Arabia. By your critearia beheading is the breaking point and they beheaded 17 individuals last year. Demand your just, moral, democracy spreading U.S. government stop all relations with the Saudis. No trade- which means no oil for your pick up truck. We are not the benevolent nation you believe we are. I understand if this is a discomforting thought but at some point your must stop trying to defend your entrenched view of the nation and look at reality. There is no beacon on the hill- no nation that is heaven on earth. All war is about markets and resources. The U.S. is dirty. They have fooled you into an us against them mentality. As an American I am ashamed that I believed all the propaganda for so long. I worry for my children- we are heading into a strange chapter when 59% of Americans believe torture is permissable. Czar get prepared for a different U.S. If we do not rise up and charge some folks with war crimes we will have given them the green light to destroy what's left of the nation.
swallowed that shit hook, liine and sinker, didn't you?
Looks like you'll learn only when the scimitar is at YOUR throat.
Better you before me.
Yes, IF you buy into the whole terrurism crap as laid out. 'Be afraid, but we will save you from those monsters'. Yeah, ok.
torture is torture no matter how you spin it GW.
Obama did execute an American by droning without even a trial. A trial by absentia would have been at least given the execution a fig leaf of following the rule of law.
And the drone strike killed his unindicted son - also an American. So where is the outrage here?
This is executive power to kill Americans at will or by declaring them terrorists? What will that precident evolve to?
I think we know how this story plays out Joe, won't be good for Americans
Most Americans will never recognize tyranny until the military boot smashes their face.
I am 100% in favor of national policy for torturing to death, on prime-time TV, anonymous propagandists & 5th columnists, masquerading as one of America's greatest founders, and all of their followers & supporters.
Freedom of speach? Nah. Torture? Good.
You are a sick fuck.
PS - do you not know that the original George Washington would hang any soldier under his command found guilty of rape or torture?
Did not think so - idiot.
plenty of space for you too on the stage
What scares me Czar and Probe, is people like you will be in control of who is a terrorist and in need of torture. I'm afraid anyone with a shred of humanity will make your hit list.
nice factoid about the real GW Curley....kudos...when my 10th grade History teacher told us that (back in 68), he damn near got in trouble...suppressing shit's been around for EVER
Nazis, Hitler...blah, blah, blah. Disease and starvation did most of the Nazi's dirty work...
Lets hear something about Bolshevik torture for once:
from: Trotsky torture squad
and from: The Cheka (and historian Orlando Figes in his book A People’s Tragedy):
Stay tuned for the Hollyweird blockbuster movie on that...or not. s/Oy Vey!s/
I'm still waiting to be able to buy a copy of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's book 200 Years Together off the shelf here in the 'free-est and bestest country in the world...or an English translation(in book form) available from anywhere for that matter. My guess is that's it going to be a long wait.
Kevin MacDonald discusses the book at his Occidental Observer site, here:
Is it really any wonder now that Amerika is controlled by the spawn of the Bolsheviks that USA INC would use torture? How long before we Amerikans are Bolsheviked?
Duplicate
http://www.amazon.com/Hellstorm-Death-Nazi-Germany-1944-1947/dp/14947750...
US tax dollars at work. Eisenhower, one of the greatest mass murderers in history.
Along with Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant.
Spot on. The New Bolsheviks have trained ISIS to do the reign of terror in the middle east and they are training their drug cartels here in the same way so once they get the guns from Americans they can let the flood of blood thirsty savage gangsters in from Mexico and Central Ameria.