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The Morality and Legality of Debt Jubilee, Part II

Sprott Money's picture




 

 

Jeff Nielson for Sprott Money

 

 

Part I of this series demonstrated how/why all of our government debts incurred in recent decades are the result of obvious and egregious fraud. These debts currently cripple our economies (and societies) with roughly 25% of every revenue dollar taken in by our corrupt governments being utterly wasted, making interest payments to financial parasites – criminal parasites.

 

This means that not only is it morally defensible (and imperative) that we wipe away these recent, fraudulent debts, it can be justified legally, in clear and unequivocal terms. But the question which remained from the opening installment of this series was with respect to the morality/legality of our historical debts. Could we, should we also erase the debts incurred by past generations, after we wipe away all of the recent years of debt-via-fraud?

 

Part I provided a clue/argument on how we should adjudicate the debts from our past, in the form of a quote from the late Charles Lindbergh Sr., former Republican Congressman, and a champion of the people in his own era, nearly a century ago:

Charles_August_Lindbergh

Our future and the future of our children have been doubly mortgaged by the wonderful profiteering schemes of the last eight years [1915 – 22], mortgaged on a larger scale than ever before. It is simply a larger installment of the great profiteering game, growing in its burden all the time andforcing us into greater and greater debt, debt that can never be paid under the present system of finance; but, on the contrary, will increase until by its own excesses it breaks down by forcing its own repudiation [i.e. Debt Jubilee]. It cannot much longer stand the strain imposed by its own plan.  [emphasis mine]

 

There are two themes which dominate this quote. First of all; the debts incurred in Lindbergh’s era – the original debts of our nations – were the product of a “game” (or a scam, or a fraud?). The banking cabal ofLindbergh’s era, the (direct) ancestors of today’s banking oligarchs employed coercion: “forcing” us into debt, and (via the arithmetic of compound interest) ultimately “forcing” us to repudiate that debt.

 

Clearly the original debts piled atop our nations were also the result of malice, coercion, and fraud. The malice and coercion are explicitly implied by the quote; the fraud is implicitly implied. Were the banksters of Lindbergh’s era – who also professed to be “the financial advisors” of our governments – telling our governments that the economic path they were leading us down could only end in disaster and bankruptcy? Of course not.

 

They professed to have a superior understanding of “finance”, and (like all Con Artists) they claimed the subtleties of this “finance” were too complex to grasp – for anyone lacking their “expertise”. Lindbergh understood in his own era, as it is understood here, that the majority of “finance” is nothing more than the application of arithmetic.

 

Any entity which steadily and relentlessly incurs debt will go bankrupt. There is no ‘magical’ means of manipulating one’s financial management in a manner which contradicts the most-basic principles of arithmetic. Were the political leaders of Lindbergh’s era simply too stupid to grasp the arithmetic of compound interest: that piling debt on top of debt must lead to bankruptcy (and Debt Jubilee)?

 

No. Just as with the political traitors of our own era; the means of “force” employed by the One Bank of Lindbergh’s era was the brute-force of corruption. The bankers bought our political leaders, and once in their service, those “leaders” (i.e. employees) feigned an incapacity to understand the simple mechanics of compound interest, and the inevitable result of serial debt. Quoting Lindbergh, again:

debt_jubilee(2)

 

…it has become a farce. Voters must realize that the old party leaders shout the ideals the people had in the original formation of the parties. Party leaders do that for propaganda purposes only.They proclaim good, and do evil.

 

The (U.S.) Two-Party Dictatorship described in these (modern) commentaries was already a fact of life one hundred years ago. Lest any reader make the mistake of interpreting any ambiguity in the preceding quote; Lindbergh is unequivocal in words which preceded that:

 

There is no material difference now in the old political parties [Republican and Democrat], except which shall control patronage [and thus collect the biggest bribes].

 

Clearly the debts incurred by the U.S. government of Lindbergh’s era, the U.S. debts incurred in our own era, and all the decades in between were a deliberate fraud perpetrated by the (supposed) government of the people, against the people. The combination of both fraud and malicious intent makes all of this debt blatantly illegal, and absolutely unenforceable.

 

However, what must be understood is that there is a totally separate basis for concluding that these debts were incurred as the product of fraud (in the strict, legal sense), and therefore legally unenforceable on this basis, as well. Thus for any who insist on blinding themselves to the rampant corruption of our traitor-leaders, there is still a binding, legal basis for repudiating these debts – all of them.

 

This other, fatal illegality in the origins of our debts, past, present, and future is founded in the legal doctrine of “fraudulent misrepresentation”. Under ordinary circumstances; if someone tricks us, and we suffer financial harm from that treachery, we have no legal recourse. We are (legally) victims of our own stupidity.

 

There is, however, a very large, distinct, and legally conclusive exception to this general rule. This relates to the legal concept known as “fiduciary duty”. Readers need not be intimidated by this jargon, as it represents a very simple principle. If someone proclaims themselves to be an expert, and also proclaims to be giving someone/some entity advice which is in their own best interests; this self-proclaimed “expert” creates a fiduciary duty for himself.

 

The expert (or “fiduciary”) has a legal duty of honesty. It is never allowable (or legal) for someone to gain the confidence of any person/entity by portraying one’s self as an expert, and then exploit that trust (and dependence) for their own financial advantage. Have the bankers of these Big Banks (the tentacles of the One Bank) portrayed themselves as “experts” when they advised our governments, and thus became fiduciaries? Obviously, yes.

 

The banksters have irrevocably portrayed themselves as fiduciaries (binding themselves by this legal duty of honesty) in both explicit and implicit terms. For proof of this; we need merely look around at the current generation of these financial experts.

 

According to Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of one of “the Evil Twins” of banking (Goldman Sachs); he considers himself and his banking brethren to not merely be “experts”, but High Priests of the world of finance:

 

I’m doing ‘God’s Work.’ Meet Mr. Goldman Sachs.

 

Note the deliberate capitalization of the word “work”. This devious snake not only wraps himself in divinity (as he lies, cheats, and steals every day of his life); he claims that the “Work” he does is, itself, Divine – and thus beyond the comprehension of lesser mortals (like our governments).

 

For any banker apologists reading this, who don’t consider Blankfein’s explicit boast of being a High Priest as proof of the fiduciary status of these banksters; the implicit evidence is even more overwhelming. These High Priests award themselves astronomical salaries, orders of magnitude greater than the Average Person, and an order of magnitude greater than the politicians they advise – even if we include all their political bribes.

 

There are only three possible conclusions which can be deduced from the obscene levels of compensation which these banksters award themselves each year, concerning their own state of mind:

a)  They consider themselves experts.

b)  They consider themselves thieves.

c)   (A) and (B).

 

Even if these career criminals seek to profess that there was nothing strictly illegal concerning how they induced our governments into burying themselves (and us) in debt, even mere dishonesty is enough, by itself, to taint these debts (past, present, and future) and render them legally null-and-void.

 

here is one, final element necessary to conclusively prove “fraudulent misrepresentation”, and thus conclusively prove that all our governments’ debts are illegal and unenforceable. We must show that our governments relied upon these swindlers – as experts/fiduciaries.

 

Here, once again, the evidence is overwhelming. Going back to Lindbergh’s own era (and the “J.P. Morgans”, and other Snakes of that time); these High Priests have always enjoyed privileged status as “financial insiders”. They have always been privy to confidential information from our governments, concerning our markets, our economies, and the present and future policies they intended.

 

The banksters have used this confidential information to their (enormous) financial advantage, year after year, decade after decade, for more than a century. It’s known as “insider trading”, and it’s yet another crime which has been serially perpetrated by the High Priests. Putting aside all that additional crime; with the privilege of being (permanent) financial/economic “insiders” comes (legal) responsibility.

BANKSTERS-2BIG2JAIL

The fact that our governments have shared (financial/economic) secrets with the High Priests – for generations – is conclusive legal proof of the “reliance” we seek to demonstrate. One only shares their most important Secrets with their most trusted Advisors.

 

For one hundred years; these financial High Priests have had a binding, legal duty to advise our governments honestly – and to act in their/our best interests. For one hundred years; the High Priests have shamelessly betrayed us, to bring us to where we are today: buried in debt, and on the brink of bankruptcy.

 

These High Priests (of the same Big Banks) have not only been the “trusted advisors” of the U.S. government over the past century. They have been the trusted advisors of (nearly) every nation in the Western world over those hundred years. Our national debts, debts incurred at the explicit urgings of the High Priests are not merely illegal and unenforceable. They are a joke – a very, very bad joke.

 

This still leaves one, very large question unanswered as we head (rapidly and inevitably) toward Debt Jubilee. What about our own, individual debts? The majority of our populations are also seriously (if not terminally) indebted, and indebted to the same financial parasite: the One Bank.

 

Should all of our personal debts stand, when the fraudulent/illegal debts of our governments are inevitably (and legally) wiped clean? That final issue will be the subject of the third, and concluding installment of this series.

 

Part III coming later this week....

 

Jeff Nielson for Sprott Money

 

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Wed, 12/17/2014 - 19:38 | 5565766 flacorps
Wed, 12/17/2014 - 19:07 | 5565612 theyjustcantstop
theyjustcantstop's picture

yes i admit, i was a working sheeple for 40 yrs., how was i going to do much, i seen in plain site, tax-dollars funding entitlements, and public-sector, and govt. unions, to fund, and advance facsism in america.

progressives,communist, fascist in america hiding under the cover of the liberal, democrat party banner, using tax-payers money to ruin america.

when you stood up in public and complained, and pointed out wasted, or illegally doled out tax-dollars, you were allinskied, (ie. it's for the children), are you against a better education for the children, you want the poor in america to go hungry, how is it you know someones disablity, on, and on.

i do have have some solice, the funding of the FSA will not be wasted, their going to be the taxpayers marines, they'll land on the beaches, be on the front lines when things go south.

they'll be joined by another force for good in america, the 18-35 yr. olds, when they realize their unamerican indoctranation, (not education), they recieved for the first 50%-75% of their lives, (your all equal, if you don't feel so, it's someone elses fault), so find out who you can blame.

the fsa, and the younger americans, live in what could be an historic time in america.

never has it been so obvious as to who, and what put america in the shape it's in.

the red, blue politics in america, (which have publicly merged), and the fed., they've taken your freedoms away, without freedoms, equality is just a policical talking point, to be used for division, as we all can see.

 

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 17:06 | 5564925 ussa
ussa's picture

Easier way to implement a jubilee:

1.Bring Fed into US Treasury

2. Issue zero interest US treasury notes with no expiration to pay off debt and deficit spending

3. Require 100% reserve banking--enables $13 trillion ($14.6t assets less $1.6t equity) in debt that Treasury can buy

4. Buy all household sector debt - forgive all household sector debt (mortgages, consumer credit, student loans) without creating a tax liability

5.  Gaming is rampant - we pay 2x what we should on defense and healthcare alone.  A relatively efficient gov't that is not totally captured ought to generate countrywide savings approaching 8% to 10% of GDP / year. 

The abuse of the American people by the various fascist / corporatist complexes is beyond anything the Soviets or most dictators have ever been able to accomplish with their respective peoples until this time in history.

 

 

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 16:58 | 5564875 Usurious
Usurious's picture

I dont want freedom from the debt, only freedom from the USURY, or the Interest..........

There is nothing wrong with debt, its the Interest that gets attached to it that is wrong...

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 19:08 | 5565619 MEFOBILLS
MEFOBILLS's picture

Both Debt and Usury matter.  Credit as money is a division of the debt instrument.  All debt instruments are created at banks/finance.  These debt instruments then flow to markets and ultimately can aggregate into pyramid control by way of banker reserve channels. 

In dollar zone areas, debt instruments even leave a country and can become "international." In other words, the legal country where debt is attached subordinates itself to the "international bankers and looses sovereignty."  Third world countries are of this type, where they have dollar loans that cannot be paid and hence exchange rate is always under pressure.  This then means foreigners can buy up the country cheap. 

Note:  the dollars can leave the country and hence dollar denominated debt instrument cannot be paid, and this action is completely outside of the usury mechanism.

The type of money and the system matters - it is more than just usury.

 

Treasury Bills are held in reserve channels, Mortgage Backed Securities were QE'd on to the FED's ledger.  SPV's at TBTF banks rehypothecated mortgages to create MBS, which is an accelerated usury function as the interest compounds (interest on interest). Note the aggregation of debt insturments and hence the control mechanism of finance.

 

So, debt instruments and their mirror (credit as money) give control to those who hold the debts.  Usury on this scheme grows the debt and hence allows debt holder to have money power.  Usury and Debts as a mechanism act upon each other. 

If you had a Sovereign system, where the money becomes a wealth unit (rather than a division of debt insturments) then the output of the system becomes less usurious. For example, with  a large component of floating money (permacredit) or what some people call greenbacks - this money circulates in the economy and DOES NOT GET RECALLED TO THE LEDGER FOR DESTRUCTION.  All economies have a certain base level of activity that can be met with this non usurious money type.

 

OK. That means that new usurious loans do not need to constantly come on line.  This type of wealth money can mediate transactions efficiently.  But, it can only be recalled by taxes.  That means that government needs to understand fiscal policy.  Sigh...good luck with that, as long as bankster usury continues to buy up economic chairs and print propaganda.

100% reserves are unnecessary as it keeps private credit as the main unit for exchange.  Just change all money to a wealth type and also have some sovereign credit channel into the commons and modes of production.  We don't need a two loop system of reserves and private bank credit.

 

See Huber at:  http://sovereignmoney.eu/

 

Zero interest credit could work, but pay attention to where the debt instruments are located and who controls them.  A zero interest credit system will have a constant drain and credit issuance (new loans) will need to be controlled to keep volume in alignment with goods and services.  Only new loans won't be controlled with raising interest rates - people will simply be denied new credit.

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:53 | 5564455 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

If debt is forgiven a creditor loses.

Hyperinflation is the usual form of modern debt jubilee. Even though efforts have been made in the past (France 1796, Germany 1923 and Zimbabwe ...not sure) efforts to save certain creditors don't work. When the currency goes bad debts are easily paid and all creditors are screwed. If there were to be an organized effort to save some creditors it would reveal the rot in the system. It is easier for all to just start over with a new currency.

The PTB have been through this before. Don't worry about them, they are prepared just like they were last time. Understanding money and the monetary system is what they do best.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 19:28 | 5565704 MEFOBILLS
MEFOBILLS's picture

No,  Hyperinflation is always an exchange rate problem

Debts do cause exchange rate difficulties. 

 

The Weimar inflation was due to Triangular flow where credit issued was dollars from wall street against German Muni Bonds primarily.

 

The credit flowed to municipalities, then ultimately to German central bank.  From there it went to pay reparations for Versaille treaty.  These dollars then cycled out of Germany and into France/Britain for reparations, and from there to the U.S. Treasury.  France and England were in dollar debt bondage to the U.S.

Debts then grow with Usury at Wall street Banks, to ultimately fund the U.S. Treasury.  This put exchange rate pressure on Germany.  Credit dollars sourced in wall street and found their way to the treasury.

 

Private banks in Germany then started hypothecating new deutchmarks against dollars collateral as loans to short the Mark.  This positive feedback mechanism created yet more shorts leading to a break into hyperinflation as more and more marks were hypothecated into existence.  Exchange rate pressures can cause bear raids of this type, where finance busts out sovereign country.  It is non trivial as people commit suicide.

 

Never let your debts point outside your legal system.  At its most fundamental, money is a division of the law.  Why cannot economists understand this?  Why?  They are bought and paid for.

Today, debts are canceled with mark to markets.  Or, debts are canceled with bankruptcy.  Private debts can be countered with Deficit spending from government - hence Keynsianism.

China cancels debts all the time because they have state banks - and this is the key reason why China will always beat the U.S. and the world.  By canceling debts they effectively let their former credit float free - so it begins to act like a Greenback generating non usurious efficiencies in the marketplace.  Initially, the credit loans from Chinese state banks are channeled into production .... that is stealing American Industry with Wall Streets help.

 

 

 

 

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:32 | 5564310 p00k1e
p00k1e's picture

Like “Ghordius” states above, ‘for every debt, there is a debtor on one side, and a creditor on the other side’

The debt used to keep the non-producer going will be moot. 

After the debt is canceled, what are we going to do with the broke pensioners and social security crowd?   Their ‘income’ will be gone. 

Kill them?

The then broke 401K crowd?  Kill them? 

What about the ‘disabled’ crowd?  Kill them too?

What about the disabled veterans??  Whack ‘em? 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 14:56 | 5564049 Clesthenes
Clesthenes's picture

You wrote,

“criminal parasites”…

Not quite: simple, “cannibals” would be more correct.  Parasites do not suck the blood of their own kind; cannibals do.  That they practice a form of cannibalism will become clear as we proceed.

You wrote secondly,

Could we, should we also erase the debts incurred by past generations, after we wipe away all of the recent years of debt-via-fraud?

Let me give you a little ammunition here.

It is a maxim of natural law (the basis of the American Revolution, and, hence, the basis of American law), that an heir cannot be forced to assume his ancestors’ DEBTS; but American law, generally, guarantees that he will inherit his ancestors’ PROPERTY.  This is a co-relative of another maxim, the earth belongs to the living, not the dead.

Government debt is the means by which an existing generation of tax consumers imposes taxes on following generations of tax payers: it is a form of financial cannibalism.  The problem here is that there is enough federal debt on the books to financially cannibalize our children and grand children to the end of time.  Don’t take my word for it; this conclusion is based on data, assumptions and formulas provided by Financial Reports of the US Government.

It is practically and constitutionally impossible to collect taxes made necessary by debt incurred by previous generations (going back some 150 years).

But that won’t stop them from trying; and they know native tax takers won’t be ruthless enough to make any more than a timid attempt to collect such taxes; for, who can put a border on stupidity?

That’s why the Department of Justice, Congress and a few other agencies aided the Red Chinese to cobble together the ALLIANCE among Mexican and Columbian drug cartels, Chinese Triads, Red Army, Chinese Communist Party along with a few other world-class criminal gangs.  It’s also why the DoJ (among other agencies) aided the Chinese (after they took possession of the Panama Canal) to smuggle into the US 150 top-level crime bosses into the US.  Gee, where did I get this info?  You’ll find it in testimony given before a congressional subcommittee (follow the link).

Now, before they could use members of this ALLIANCE as tax collectors and slave masters on American soil, they had to create an instrument modeled on French Committees of Terror (1792-4), the Judeo-Bolshevik Cheka, and the Nazi Shchutzstaffel.  Americans know this instrument as the Department of Homeland Security.

There’s got to be a better alternative; and there is: above links lead to pages that explain the only historically-proven method by which men have been made accountable for what they have done; the same method employed by American Founders, despite their mistakes.

 

Don’t forget to let your lawyers and accountants verify my work.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 14:54 | 5564045 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

A Jubilee is a must at this point....BUT then never allow for the moneychangers to people who can't pay it back....that is how they stole the money !!!!!

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 14:49 | 5564023 Prober
Prober's picture

This is one policy approach. There are many possible policy approaches, one is to terminate everyone who is an incompetent lazy failure and/or parasite in the economy, and all the entitlement programs (which account for MORE than 60% of government spending) which subsidize these economic ticks, leeches, tapeworms, vampires, etc. Then there would be a 60% reduction in government spending, 60% reduction in deficits and debt accumulation, and 60% reduction in confiscation of the earnings of the competent & successful.

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:43 | 5564393 Panem et Circus
Panem et Circus's picture

Honestly bud, I agree with you as to the potential of that solution; however, I'm afraid the reality is that any leader that is willing to do that at this point in the Republic is literally be risking his life.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 14:20 | 5563842 Bemused Observer
Bemused Observer's picture

Debt only works as enslavement when the victims cooperate, in fact, the victims MUST cooperate if it is to work at all.

Understand that...it cannot be imposed, it must be accepted. YOU, the 'debt-slave' must AGREE to the terms of your enslavement, or it cannot be imposed on you WITHOUT your consent...

Todays debt-slaves go along with their captors because they believe the bullshit being fed to them, about how this system will someday make THEM rich, as long as they behave and go along with the program. So, a debt-slavery system can only function as long as a critical mass of the populace BELIEVES the lie.

The feeling I get is that a critical mass is starting to become aware of how they've been hoodwinked. I don't see lots of folks going out and spending, or 'investing', as if this economy was healthy. I see them hunkering down, closing their wallets, and pulling themselves out of a very sick system.

So, if that is true, then our current system is on its last legs. People can get REAL and do some kind of "Jubilee by stages"...an orderly deleveraging of all toxic debts, where they can exert SOME control. Or they can just wait for the other kind of 'Jubilee"...the one that will be imposed when the whole Jenga tower of debt and derivatives collapses suddenly under its own weight. That kind is a lot messier, and you have NO control.

But we WILL get Jubilee, one way or another. The economy has no concepts of moral hazard. That is a problem only we humans seem to have with every God-damned thing we encounter. As far as the economy is concerned, it is simply a mathematical problem..."X" can only be the number that makes the equation work, or your calculations are wrong, period. An economy with too much debt WILL shut down, so the debt MUST be removed. Since it cannot be paid, it must either be defaulted or forgiven...Unless there's some other way to eliminate it that no one has thought of yet?

The problem is the whiny squeaking about the "unfairness" of writing off debt because someone will get away with something, and we can't have that. Bullshit. These folks have been getting away with plenty themselves, which is why we are IN this mess to begin with. Let's NOT forget THAT, ok?

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:59 | 5563706 New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

This article misquotes Lloyd Blankfein.  What he said was the was doing "gods work", not "God's work".  The difference is huge, as the former inidicates service to Satan, while the latter pay homage to God; and in this there is a very big difference.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:47 | 5564408 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

that's a hilarious comment.

so, when he spoke verbally, how did you happen to know whether he said "gods work" with lower-case g or "God's work" with upper-case G?

i won't even get started on your superstitious belief in the bogeyman under the bed that you call "satan"

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:58 | 5563703 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

It's "moral and legal" as long as I am not a counter-party (recipient of cash flows) to any of the debts being forgiven.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:42 | 5563614 lex parsimoniae
lex parsimoniae's picture

Along with Part 1, this is the best writing I've seen on the subject. Those of us who have held the postion that a debt jubilee is the only solution have not been taken seriously (perhaps until now). Considering the legal benchmarks of Unjust Enrichment and Equity it's possible to conceive how a Jubilee may "look" and it would be far more manageable and effective than simply handing out money.

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:41 | 5563598 Shekels
Shekels's picture

The bankers (Shylocks) want their pound of flesh. Sell the farm and/ or Alaaska. They still wont be satisfied.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:33 | 5563546 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

A "Jubilee" is not needed, we just need to Stop paying. Just Stop.

The banksters stole it from us, we're taking it back. Can't get any more moral than that.

An American, not US subject.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:03 | 5563388 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

So you honestly think people have learned their lesson? You honestly think this was done in a corner? We are the most informed people in history with access to any bit of information we want and we have somehow been duped into this? We are here because the public wanted us to be here. This is the fruit of a choice. So how is it that if the profligate public gets forgiven that this little act doesn't repeat itself in a generation?

Did people learn nothing from the depression? It is all there for all to see yet we are in worse shape when this rolls over. Who do we honestly blame here? The public

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 16:17 | 5564605 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Not quite.  The public, even the productive public cannot access billions at 0.25% interest.

This bullshit "financialization" is very different from what happened during the great depression (when there were less people and considerable more resources).

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 16:24 | 5564629 Panem et Circus
Panem et Circus's picture

The public is consistently chosing to borrow today against the future, when they know there is no way to pay all this debt back. They are complicent in the fraud that is taking place. The public is trading comfort today for an ass raping tomorrow.

I think your argument is that they don't benefit as much as the billionaires do, which is true.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:35 | 5565490 Seer
Seer's picture

"they know there is no way to pay all this debt back."

We won't admit it that the ENTIRE SYSTEM is predicated on a Ponzi, it's a Growth Ponzi.  It all went horribly wrong when we strayed from the origins of "interest:" in the beginning "interest" was based on claims to calves birthed during transport (Phoenicians).  Now we're just fucking making shit up, and we're ALL complicit because "in GROWTH we trust!"

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:46 | 5564415 Panem et Circus
Panem et Circus's picture

+ 1,000

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:00 | 5563195 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Moral hazard is a real bitch motherfucker.  Who's debt will be forgiven exactly?  The only way to make this fair and avoid the issue of moral hazard would be to hand out the same amount of money to every productive (tax-paying) citizen for the sole purpose of paying down or off debt, period.

Forgiving government and bank debt without addressing how the productive members of society have been getting fucked is simply more cronyism/fascism.

 

Let me be clear, FUCK THAT.  We have had enough of this already.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:06 | 5563419 Canuckistan Al
Canuckistan Al's picture

OK let me start with the acknowledgement that I'm probably going to come off like a whiny little bitch here. So be it. And yes, I am perfectly aware that life is not fair.

What I would like to understand is, under all this chatter about Debt Jubilee, exactly how does this all work for the smallish percentage of the peoples (myself among them), that spent a lifetime avoiding all but the most unvoidable usury (and paid off student loans, (mine and the kiddies), mortages etc as quickly as possible), lived well within my means, eschewed debt, practiced delayed gratification, priotized and perhaps sacrificed a bit?

When they flush all the bad debts in an epic do-over, do I get a piece of the action too? Or do I just get fucked?

I know, I know, I probably answered my own question here.

I would like to understand if there is a plausible scenario where the savers somehow are treated equitably even though they may not have debt to forgive?

I mean really, I've done without hookers and blow, fancy Rolex and a shiny BMer. (don't I get a turn at the trough).

OK junk away!

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:27 | 5565453 Seer
Seer's picture

"I mean really, I've done without hookers and blow, fancy Rolex and a shiny BMer. (don't I get a turn at the trough)."

Silly fool, been living wrong, haven't you? :-)

I know the feeling quite well.  Not claiming moral superiority over others, BUT, I CAN say that where they might find comfort in such things I find comfort in my head (many folks latch on to religion for this purpose- I skipped past this training wheels level, but regardless, when all is said and done I can hold my head high).

Another comment on this...  Years ago I recall some folks here on ZH claiming that they were going to go out and take huge loans and never repay them.  I lashed out at that behavior stating that I would NOT do business with such folks: two wrongs don't make a right.  Moral character, moral character.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:58 | 5563707 Blood Spattered...
Blood Spattered Banner's picture

Rest easy Al, as a debt jubilee will never happen (but you would get fucked if one happened).  One thing to note is that your fiscal responsibility (which I applaud) means you are playing by different rules than the very people giving you your money.  That's the farce of the "Moral Hazard".  Now that we've seen the unscrupulous tactics of high finance and corporations, we know the rules are different between us and them.  Yet we all continue to follow their rules...

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:35 | 5564331 Panem et Circus
Panem et Circus's picture

Canuck,

Research a little about what has been considered "wealth" for millenia. For many generations across the planet, even today, wealth is enough calories to survive on a daily basis. Food that stores for years is an excellent investment. So is first-hand knowledge. The rest are pretty easy to figure out by reading internet message boards.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:30 | 5565467 Seer
Seer's picture

Thans for that post.  More people here need to understand that the bulk of humanity lives at quite an impoverised level (I'm well aware of this- my wife is from the Philippines): something like 2/3 of the world's population lives on $3/day or less (there's like 750 MILLION people in India living on $0.50/day).

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:01 | 5563391 PT
PT's picture

Hand exact the same amount of money to every citizen for the sole purpose of paying down debt, if they have any.  Pay off all debt first.  You get to keep what's left.  That's the only way responsible people can be rewarded for being careful with their money.
Step 2.  Stop lending money to idiots.  Stop Ponzi Finance.  As long as an idiot has access to borrow money, he will out-bid sensible people and the whole cycle starts again.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:23 | 5565415 Seer
Seer's picture

"Stop lending money to idiots. "

Laws aren't going to help here, except, perhaps, eliminating the ability of financial entities writing off bad loans: actually ANYONE writing them off.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 16:16 | 5564589 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yep, I can promise you they will see inflation after doing this.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 12:09 | 5563017 lordbyroniv
lordbyroniv's picture

Yes yes...we the people hold the moral & legal high ground....but so what????

Its been 6 years and we are still in bondage while they beat us over the head with our morality & belief in Law.

 

 

:(

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:19 | 5565398 Seer
Seer's picture

"Its been 6 years and we are still in bondage while they beat us over the head with our morality & belief in Law."

Did you fail to comprehend the article? the part about this being an issue that goes WAY back? (not just based on some stupid Party Pussy mentality/line)

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 11:43 | 5562926 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

However it plays out, I know it is going to hurt me and not the Banksters.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 12:45 | 5562923 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

for every debt, there is a debtor on one side, and a creditor on the other side

at the end, if you want to make a debt jubilee, you have to understand that giving credit and asking for credit is a typical human action

so the very moment the debt jubilee is done, the whole cycle starts again

except if you redifine debt. as something that has to be... careful, here it comes.... regulated

I'll make an example: for most countries on this planet, those student loans are... illegal. seen as an accessory to modern slavery

in the same way, the Old World got rid of debt prisons. and would not even dare building too many prisons, or, worse, privatizing parts of the prison system

so what is more important? the freedom of getting in debt as much as the individual wants or the whole "fabric of a nation"? it's a "or" question, you can't have your cake and eat it too

except if you are a megabank, then you can lend out of nothing based on the collateral that is the cake, then make synthetic financial wizardry with the debt on the cake, sell it to idiots, jack the price of the cake so that the buyer of the debt is robbed, jack the other way so that the cake buyer is robbed, and then buy with the results two cakes, eat them with the original cake and ask the government to bail you out for three cakes. then you ate three cakes and have three cakes

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:17 | 5565391 Seer
Seer's picture

"the whole cycle starts again

"except if you redifine debt. as something that has to be... careful, here it comes.... regulated"

Regulation within a system that's predicated on the impossible -perpetual growth on a finite planet- cannot/could not work.  Without growth it is impossible to pay both interest (which is really the growth part) and principal).

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 03:45 | 5567291 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

excellent point, seer, though it applies only if you don't accept default as one of the possible outcomes

without bailouts, you have defaults, which are the "creative destruction" of which several Austrian speak

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 13:00 | 5563381 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

When a "creditor" has no real collateral, yet they print money to "lend", they are in fact a criminal motherfucker.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:29 | 5564299 Panem et Circus
Panem et Circus's picture

The very definition of fraud.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 12:57 | 5563363 PT
PT's picture

Lend money to idiots and they will, of their own free will, outbid everyone else at the auction.
Then they default.  Because they are idiots.
Then you repossess all their stuff.  You win.  Every one else loses.
Then repeat.

And you can proudly proclaim "It was all free market transactions."
(Just remember to hide all the free money that enabled the idea).

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 11:43 | 5562920 geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

Most Americans  I know are living off old wealth and inheritances that is bieng depleted and the rest are in deep debt.  The other 1% will not talk to me.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 15:36 | 5564342 Panem et Circus
Panem et Circus's picture

Of course. We are not taught how to create wealth anymore. In fact we are taught that creating wealth is a moral hazard in and of itself! After a few generations of that nonsense, what else would you expect?

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:12 | 5565369 Seer
Seer's picture

The entire notion of "creating wealth" is WAY overblown.  REAL wealth is created first and foremost from materials extracted from the planet.  Yes, we "humans" "value-add," but without the (once) abundant materials from the planet we're stuck, we go nowhere.  And as REAL wealth becomes harder to extract from the planet (owing to greater resistance, scarcity and such) our increases in wealth decline, cumulatively.  It's this cumulative decline that is now upon us.  Humans haven't changed one iota; what has changed is the availability of easier-to-extract wealth.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 20:17 | 5565928 logicalman
logicalman's picture

The question I'd like to ask is... define the term 'wealth'

I consider myself to be wealthy, though my monetary value isn't that great.

I'm fit and healthy.

I have food on the table, a roof over my head and clothes on my back - TODAY.

Tomorrow, who knows?

 

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 11:35 | 5562882 gobsmack
gobsmack's picture

I am having trouble finding reliable information as to whether debt will simply be revalued following a currency collapse.  I had been counting on tossing a Kruggerand at my mortgagee and telling it to get fucked but Jim Sinclair says not so fast, they'll just revalue the debt as they did in Mexico.  I found one source that says they did the same in Weimar.  Zimbabwe I'm not sure about.  It doesn't really matter since I'm not selling my relics no matter what but it would be nice to have that silver lining amidst all the doom and gloom.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 12:05 | 5563031 silentsock
silentsock's picture

If the situation isn't to your liking, rather than tossing them a Krugerrand, you can always toss them the keys instead. lol

It's funny how when WE do such things, we are "immoral" or "deadbeats", but when THEY do such things, it's in their "strategic business interests", or some such shit.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 12:26 | 5563150 TahoeBilly2012
TahoeBilly2012's picture

Worldwide debt saturation, bankrupt Governments/currencies. then the "solution", a global currency controlled by the Tribe (tm). End transmission.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 14:42 | 5563975 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

Why don't you assholes quit blaming this on the "tribe", implicating people of the Jewish faith as the one controlling interest of all that is wrong with the world. How about some so called Jews are a part of an international conspiracy to own the world and everyone on it.These people worship greed, authority over others and idolize themselves as superior. They have no religious faith, they only revel in their success in the misery they cause by deceiving the stupid sheep.

Stop looking for scape goats and look in the mirror. What are you going to do about the increasing slavery of mankind? Are you just going to point a finger and hope leaders emerge that will do it for you? Stop complying and contributing to the looting and rising police state. Then figure out ways to resist and impede these sociopaths that have you by the nuts.

Devout Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses  believe it is Satan's grasp on the earth and there is nothing they can do but wait for God or the Son of God to return to destroy Satan's evil reign. I'm not waiting for a Savior. I'm taking positive action and at least trying to learn how to do a better job for the benefit of the oppressed.

 

 

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