59% Of Americans Support Post-9/11 Torture – Propaganda, Cultural Sickness, Or Both?

Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Mike Krieger via Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

Ever since the torture report was released last week, U.S. television outlets have endlessly featured American torturers and torture proponents. But there was one group that was almost never heard from: the victims of their torture, not even the ones recognized by the U.S. Government itself as innocent, not even the family members of the ones they tortured to death. Whether by design (most likely) or effect, this inexcusable omission radically distorts coverage.

 

Whenever America is forced to confront its heinous acts, the central strategy is to disappear the victims, render them invisible. That’s what robs them of their humanity: it’s the process of dehumanization. That, in turns, is what enables American elites first to support atrocities, and then, when forced to reckon with them, tell themselves that – despite some isolated and well-intentioned bad acts – they are still really good, elevated, noble, admirable people. It’s hardly surprising, then, that a Washington Post/ABC News poll released this morning found that a large majority of Americans believe torture is justified even when you call it “torture.” Not having to think about actual human victims makes it easy to justify any sort of crime.

 

– From Glenn Greenwald’s latest piece: U.S. TV Provides Ample Platform for American Torturers, but None to Their Victims

After reading about a new poll that shows 59% of Americans support post 9/11 torture, I’ve spent the entire morning thinking about what it means. Does this confirm the total degeneration of American culture into a collective of chicken-hawk, unthinking, statist war-mongering automatons? Alternatively, does it merely reflect the effectiveness of corporate-government propaganda? Is it a combination of both? How does the poll spilt by age group?

These are all important questions to which I do not have definitive answers, but I have some thoughts I’d like to share. First, here are some of the observations from the Washington Post:

A majority of Americans believe that the harsh interrogation techniques used on terrorism suspects after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were justified, even as about half the public says the treatment amounted to torture, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

 

By an almost 2-1 margin, or 59-to-31 percent, those interviewed support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying they produced valuable intelligence.

 

In general, 58 percent say the torture of suspected terrorists can be justified “often” or “sometimes.”

 

The new poll comes on the heels of a scathing Senate Intelligence Committee investigation into the CIA’s detention and interrogation program, which President Obama ended in 2009. The report concluded that controversial interrogation techniques — including waterboarding detainees, placing them in stress positions and keeping them inside confinement boxes — were not an effective means of acquiring intelligence.

This is important, because despite the Senate Report showing torture was not effective in acquiring intelligence (see: Revelations from the Torture Report – CIA Lies, Nazi Methods and the $81 Million No-Bid Torture Contract), the American public thinks it was. This is the power of mainstream media spin and propaganda.

Fifty-three percent of Americans say the CIA’s harsh interrogation of suspected terrorists produced important information that could not have been obtained any other way, while 31 percent say it did not.

 

In a CBS poll released Monday, nearly seven in 10 considered waterboarding torture, but about half said the technique and others are, at times, justified. Fifty-seven percent said harsh interrogation techniques can provide information that can prevent terrorist attacks.

While the above is disturbing, if I felt that the culture is lost beyond hope and that my fellow American is akin to a zombified sociopath with no hope of awakening, I wouldn’t be writing on this website. I would have renounced my citizenship long ago and moved somewhere else. In contrast, I think there’s a lot to fight for in these United States and I think the war for freedom, civil rights and the rule of law can and will prevail. After all, I was admittedly more or less a zombie during the years immediately following 9/11 and for most of my time on Wall Street. If I was able to make such a profound transition (and countless of my friends have as well ), then there is always hope.

I continue to think that the vast majority of human beings are not particularly ethical or unethical. They are basically somewhere in the middle and thus very easily molded by propaganda. History pretty much proves this to be the case. My sentiments on the subject can be best summarized by something I wrote back in 2012 in the post: Humanity is Rising.

I have always felt that human disposition lies on a bell curve.  So let’s say for the sake of argument that 1% is just extraordinarily wicked, selfish, mentally deranged so along the lines of a Stalin like character.  Then let’s say the 1% on the other side is gentle, enlightened, and moral almost to a fault so a Gandhi like character.  Then the masses in the middle are not of any extreme disposition in either way, but are easily malleable and generally just “go along to get along.”  Well as far as recorded human history is concerned, the 1% of nasty, immoral parasites have dominated humanity through the various playbooks strategies that I and many others have outlined.  The 1% on the other side have generally been silenced or ostracized systematically by the control freak “leaders” and if that fails to work, they are simply murdered.  I mean even up until the 20th Century think about the kinds of guys that have been murdered.  Gandhi.  Martin Luther King Jr.  John Lennon.  Oh and if we want to go back a couple thousand years there was Jesus.  The list is endless.  Guys that talk about a higher level of consciousness and love and actually make inroads in society are murdered.  Yet no one ever seems to take a shot at the genocidal, sociopaths that run our lives through politics and banking (nor would I ever want that as I do not condone violence as a solution to a violent system).  Interesting isn’t it?  I think it is pretty obvious why this is the case.  The 1% on the decent side of the bell curve aren’t murderers.  The guys on the other side of it are.  

While certainly not giving the middle of the bell curve a pass for its unquestioned apathy and ignorance, I am convinced that the key variable here is information, which is why it is so imperative to conduct alternative narratives, and is why I spend most of my time working on this site. Glenn Greenwald’s recent piece in the Intercept helped to reinforce the impact of media propaganda in shaping public perceptions. Here are some excerpts:

Ever since the torture report was released last week, U.S. television outlets have endlessly featured American torturers and torture proponents. But there was one group that was almost never heard from: the victims of their torture, not even the ones recognized by the U.S. Government itself as innocent, not even the family members of the ones they tortured to death. Whether by design (most likely) or effect, this inexcusable omission radically distorts coverage.

 

Whenever America is forced to confront its heinous acts, the central strategy is to disappear the victims, render them invisible. That’s what robs them of their humanity: it’s the process of dehumanization. That, in turns, is what enables American elites first to support atrocities, and then, when forced to reckon with them, tell themselves that – despite some isolated and well-intentioned bad acts – they are still really good, elevated, noble, admirable people. It’s hardly surprising, then, that a Washington Post/ABC News poll released this morning found that a large majority of Americans believe torture is justified even when you call it “torture.” Not having to think about actual human victims makes it easy to justify any sort of crime.

 

This self-glorifying ritual can be sustained only by completely suppressing America’s victims. If you don’t hear from the human beings who are tortured, it’s easy to pretend nothing truly terrible happened. That’s how the War on Terror generally has been “reported” for 13 years and counting: by completely silencing those whose lives are destroyed or ended by U.S. crimes. That’s how the illusion gets sustained.

 

Thus, we sometimes hear about drones (usually to celebrate the Great Kills) but almost never hear from their victims: the surviving family members of innocents whom the U.S. kills or those forced to live under the traumatizing regime of permanently circling death robots. We periodically hear about the vile regimes the U.S. props up for decades, but almost never from the dissidents and activists imprisoned, tortured and killed by those allied tyrants. Most Americans have heard the words “rendition” and “Guantanamo” but could not name a single person victimized by them, let alone recount what happened to them, because they almost never appear on American television.

 

It would be incredibly easy, and incredibly effective, for U.S. television outlets to interview America’s torture victims. There is certainly no shortage of them. Groups such as the ACLUCenter for Constitutional RightsReprieve, and CAGE UK represent many of them. Many are incredibly smart and eloquent, and have spent years contemplating what happened to them and navigating the aftermath on their lives.

 

I’ve written previously about the transformative experience of meeting and hearing directly from the victims of the abuses by your own government. That human interaction converts an injustice from an abstraction into a deeply felt rage and disgust. That’s precisely why the U.S. media doesn’t air those stories directly from the victims themselves: because it would make it impossible to maintain the pleasing fairy tales about “who we really are.”

 

When I was in Canada in October, I met Maher Arar (pictured above) for the second time, went to his home, had breakfast with his wife (also pictured above) and two children. In 2002, Maher, a Canadian citizen of Syrian descent who worked as an engineer, was traveling back home to Ottawa when he was abducted by the U.S. Government at JFK Airport, heldincommunicado and interrogated for weeks, then “rendered” to Syria where the U.S. arranged to have him brutally tortured by Assad’s regime. He was kept in a coffin-like cell for 10 months and savagely tortured until even his Syrian captors were convinced that he was completely innocent. He was then uncermoniously released back to his life in Canada as though nothing had happened.

 

When he sued the U.S. government, subservient U.S. courts refused even to hear his case, accepting the Obama DOJ’s claim that it was too secret to safely adjudicate.

 

There are hundreds if not thousands of Maher Arars the U.S. media could easily and powerfully interview. McClatchy this week detailed the story of Khalid al Masri, a German citizen whom the U.S. Government abducted in Macedonia, tortured, and then dumped on a road when they decided he wasn’t guilty of anything (US courts also refused to hear his case on secrecy grounds). The detainees held without charges, tortured, and then unceremoniously released from Guantanamo and Bagram are rarely if ever heard from on U.S. television, even when the U.S. Government is forced to admit that they were guilty of nothing.

 

This is not to say that merely putting these victims on television would fundamentally change how these issues are perceived. Many Americans would look at the largely non-white and foreign faces recounting their abuses, or take note of their demonized religion and ethnicity, and react for that reason with indifference or even support for what was done to them.

I’m not so sure this is the case, and in any event, we can’t know unless we try.

Keeping those victims silenced and invisible is the biggest favor the U.S. television media could do for the government over which they claim to act as watchdogs. So that’s what they do: dutifully, eagerly and with very rare exception.

Watching television is easy and addicting, particularly if you came of age before the internet. Television news is simply horrifying. On those rare instances when I catch a glimpse of it at the gym, I feel as if I have entered a bizarro world of idiocy and shamelessness.

Nevertheless, it remains true that a lot of the pre-internet generation still receives intellectual marching orders from the idiot-box. This is why I’m so curious to see how the Washington Post poll splits by age bracket. Either way, hope is never lost and the torch of liberty must remain lit and carried forward by those who care. That’s precisely what I try to do here at Liberty Blitzkrieg, and I ask you to do the same in whatever capacity you can.

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Latina Lover's picture

Our  'Elites' have achieved their goal of turning most Americans into moral imbeciles, distracting them with 'rights' that do not threaten the state, while dumbing down their sense of Right and Wrong, making it much easier to violate individual rights.

bigdumbnugly's picture

the 59% were probably tortured into agreeing

 

SoberOne's picture

It's both. There are other reasons too. I call it apathetic lethargy.

Headbanger's picture

Have you idiots ever heard of 9/11 !!??

Fucking duh!!

knukles's picture

What's with the picture?  No Mo'bomba?  He's kept the torture programs alive and well, if not expanded them along with all the wars overseas!
Nobel Pizza Prize man

SuperRay's picture

Call it the stupidity of the American voter...

suteibu's picture

It's the 24/Jack Bauer effect.  And you thought you were just being entertained.

Gaius Frakkin' Baltar's picture

This is why americans deserve to lose. They have no moral high-ground and no greater goal. Just aimless consumption. At least the liver-eaters have goals. Do they even kill as many babies? Doubt it.

SoilMyselfRotten's picture

Have you idiots ever heard of 9/11?

 

Who the hell let Rudy in here?

TungstenBars's picture

Nobody gives a fuck about 9/11.

If the US didn't kill millions of people then it wouldn't have a target on its stinkin back. 

NESD's picture

These head-loping bastards are at war Western Civilization, decadent as it is. War is a nasty business where bad things happen by definition. I and most I know could care less what happens to these Muslim extremist scumbags.  They slaughter innocent children at their schools and we have to play nice?

TungstenBars's picture

In regards to the middle east upwards of 90% of the people the US kills are innocent civilians over there, numbering in the hundreds of thousands. That is not counting the lives they ruin, the people they displace, and the infrastructre they destroy...fucking over millions for generations. 

If you don't want a war against muslims then here is a solution: GTFO of their countries (it's their oil not yours) stopping at every door and begging forgiveness along the way, and then don't allow them into yours if you are so fucking afraid of them.

 

Edit: If your country was bombed with depleted uranium, robbed, and occupied for decades you would be ready to cut some heads off too

This is not about religion. If they were christians they would still be doing the same things under the same circumstances. At most those people just use religion to try to cope with their environment. It's all they have left as they stand in the rubble. 

FL_Conservative's picture

TungstenBars, while I have strong non-interventionist feelings, if it were up to me, I'm not going to "sign off" on whatever KSM wants to do to US citizens, saying that "we deserved it".  My policy would be clear that we're staying the fuck out of other people's business (saving the lives of our children who have to go there to fight) unless legitimate US interests are threatened.  And, if that happened, while I would not use some of the "torture" methods that Cheney and W did, to save the lives of innocent Americans (including any of your or my family members), I'm going to do what I need to to get information/answers.  Yes, our foreign policy has created most of our problems, but I don't and won't respect the life of a terrorist more than I will US citizens.  If that offends strict civil libertarians here, sorry.  But our government's primary purpose is to protect the rights and property of Americans.  And that is what MY government policies would be about. 

CH1's picture

They haven't the guts to admit that they were wrong.

TBT or not TBT's picture

"They" strike once again!  Blast!

balolalo's picture

Have you looked around lately?

59% OF AMERICANS ARE DUMBFUCKS

eatthebanksters's picture

Without even taking the time to read the article I am of the opinion that the world is filled with brutal people who kill and would continue to kill many innocents people. I have no problem doing whatever is necessary to them, and that includes torture, to save the lives of many innocents.  My compassion and pride in being a 'good' person ends when others lives are in danger.  

NuckingFuts's picture

The moral high ground is the birds eye view of the barbarians around us. If we believe we are better then "them" we need to act like it. not just talk about our superior morals.

Many of us have taken that ground, sometimes in a divorce, sometime in business, sometimes with our enemies. When I did, I was left with a feeling of peace and those around me knew that I had done the right thing... Although they also agreed that I was wronged and hurt and deserved my due.

Moral compasses can swing also. If one were to seriously wrong my wards who are my responsibility, I would flay them slowly with no regard to any morality or sense of right wrong. Each of us has that in them regardless of how much they deny it.

For my own sense; I do not believe this was a just thing our government did. But if my kid was killed or my wife raped .... What would I consider just? I don't know. Revenge is a hell of a drug.

Bananamerican's picture

It isn't about "revenge" , or justice or strength or pride or any of that bullshit though, Nucking.

It's about the "devils' children doing what they LIKE to do... in every culture on earth.

Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

artless's picture

It's actually a MUCH, MUCH HIGHER NUMBER.

Paveway IV's picture

You're arguing against decades of proven psychopath-creating success by both Goebbels and the Jewish-run mainstream media, CH1.

It's not pride, nor cowardice. Most of these people are not in denial about the torture - they actually believe they are right and the CIA was morally justified. 

Look around you. Is it so hard to believe that 50% of Americans are closet psychopaths today? 

TungstenBars's picture

But our government's primary purpose is to protect the rights and property of Americans.

If the government strickly did abide by that premise then it would realize not to stick it's nose into places where it shouldn't be, infrining on the rights and property of non-Americans and creating a perpetual cycle of hostility that comes back and naturally harms Americans. 

What we have instead is a pissing contest of US vs world that can never be won, where the .gov contestants in a deranged state of hubris think they can win; in essence killing their own people (and many others) due to their lunacy. 

The9thDoctor's picture

Righty-tighty neocons are pro-torture... until it happens to them, then they whine about police state, big government, and oppression.  Since it was cool to do it to Muslims, blacks, "terrorists" and [insert next boogeyman here], then when it's the neocons' turn to have the state torture and disappear them, there will be no one left to speak out.

Don't worry conservatards.  The torture, oppression, renditions, and ham-fisted tactics will be used against you next as clearly stated in the DHS reports.  That's your little "reward" for being fellow traveler dupes cheerleading the destruction of civil liberties and unalienable rights.

I know the chickenhawks will be the first to cry when they go six days without sleep being forced to stand in a box with loud heavy metal music playing and bright lights shined into their face.  They act all tough until it happens to them.

cgbspender's picture

I agree with your sentiments. I had a conversation the other day with a neocon co-worker on this subject. He seemed to think of torture as a uniquely american cultural value that he was proud to identify and sympathize with. It was disgusting.

Heavy's picture

Anywhere I can move to that has stricter anti-torture laws?  Man never thought I'd ask that question as a kid.

barliman's picture

 

Everywhere else has less rights and more government controls. That's the fact. 

Wife wanted an assessment with an eye to a retirement "safe haven". I built her a spreadsheet breaking down a lot of factors including the American panopticon.   Her response was, "Shit! North Dakota?"

If ANYONE thinks there is some "better" place, please pack your bags and move there.

I just LOVE all the PC pussies and Pajama Boys speaking out against torture - let me guess, your going by what some "noble organization" published right?

My view on torture is it probably isn't going to work on a wholesale basis ... but never discount how effective it can be in any given situation.

BTW, I won't be reading your comments or looking at your votes - I date back on here before most all of you so I remember when this place was something other than another link on RealClearMarkets.com inundated by assholes.

 

P.S. If you don't "believe" in torture, eat a bullet when the global clusterfuck STARTS - there are going to be a lot of sick fucks looking for people like you when they don't have to worry about the consequences.

FL_Conservative's picture

Hey Doc, let me know how that "polite treatment" of yours works when they life of your wife, son or daughter hangs in the balance.  Maybe if you said "please" sincerely enough, they would comply.  The people we're dealing with are barbarians pure and simple. While I have no tolerance for waterboarding or suspending people by their limbs or putting them in tight, confined spaces, if I want to crank Britney Spears or Justin Bieber 24/7 to gain compliance and save your family-member's life, then I would choose to do it.  As said in my first post, I couldn't "undo" what past Prez's have done, but I also wouldn't tolerate muslim extremists continuing to go off on innocent US citizens if it was plainly apparent that we were employing non-interventionist policies. At some point you have to deal with the issue that it probably isn't going to change how those extremists think of us, because of the gross difference in culture and values.

Samman's picture

Torture doesn't work or haven't you heard? I'm no con-servative but I'll take a John McCain, 5.5 years of torture in a Vietnam prison v. the Dick Cheney, 5 deferments, who knows NOTHING of war except how to profit. 

Voicefather's picture

I keep hearing this torture doesn't work mantra. If someone REALLY tortured you, before long you would blab every secret in your life to make it stop. It doesn't work because most people don't know anything useful worth being tortured over. If Corzine stole you and your family's life savings most people on ZH would be lined up with pliers to figure out which account he buried that money in.  

Tall Tom's picture

And you'd be buttfucking Corzine's grandchildren in front of Corzine to make him talk, right?

 

US Troops did that to Iraqi detainees' children.

 

You are just another fucking PEDOPHILE. That is what YOU SUPPORT.

 

 

Voicefather's picture

Yes please, nothing proves an argument like jumping to massive conclusions and name calling. Did I advocate raping kids? Did I advocate torture? No dumbass, I am trying to point out to you dorks that as much as you want torture to be inherently useless 100% of the time so you can cling to some weakminded view about some absolutist moral underpinnings of the universe, there is no evidence this universe cares about you. And guess what, if someone has information you want you could beat it out of them. I'm arguing the equivalent that if you shoot someone with a gun they will likely die and you're like nya-uh!!, its evil to shoot someone with a gun, that never works!!11 Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger, I didn't create this universe.  

Memedada's picture

Don’t you sometime wish you had the capability of critical thinking – so you could understand more of what’s happening around you? Or are you happy to be (blissfully?) ignorant?

Well, I’ll help you out on this one: if torture makes you ‘scream’ the truth out, how do you know it’s the truth? Would you not say ANYTHING to make the torture stop? And would that little predicament not make ALL information obtained through torture unreliable?

All the ‘blabs’ (is this a word? - I'm a native Danish speaker, so I don't know) created through torture are more misguiding than guiding. The British knew this during WWII. They did not use torture (as an intelligence gathering method). Instead captured high-profile information-sources were installed on luxury estates. With plenty of food, wine/alcohol, games and music. With microphones installed everywhere they got all the information needed.

Voicefather's picture

Actually I think very well for myself. I am fully capable of viewing this reality as the fucked up, indifferent entity that it is and you liberal types persist in a delusion that this world is gumdrops and rainbows til humans mess it up. You are dead wrong, the Brits did torture in WWII. I just read an article about that in another discussion. One of the lines from one of the Brit interrogators was that if a German spy came in with information that they wanted, sooner or later they got it. I'm not an advocate of torture, I'm merely pointing out that it is a wishful delusion to say it never works.

TBT or not TBT's picture

Yeah...no.  The KKK was the militant wing of the Democrat party back when it rode.   Bull Connor was a DNC committee chair.   A Dem senator who was a high KKK officer just finished out doyen of the Senate just a few years ago.  The charming folks who riot and burn and incite riots and all the hurt and mayhem that goes with it.  They vote Dem.   Truman, FDR, Wilson, LBJ.   Lefty pantheon members who have damaged the Republic domestically and rained hell overseas that make the hated W look very unaccomplished indeed.   Those four killed some folks.  By the millions.  

Memedada's picture

RE: FL_Conservative

OK, so you’re dumb on many levels:

1.       You support torture (i.e. you’ve lost your humanity)

2.       You think torture works (that you can get reliable and valid data from torturing people – this has been proven wrong again and again. The US ‘intelligence’ community (should be called propaganda-, PSY-op- or intimidation-community) themselves know this. They’ve used torture as a method for decades, but the goal is not intelligence but coercion – making the potential consequences of rebellious act against the empire so frightening that most people will abstain)

3.       You think the stated purpose of your government is equal to its actual purpose (the actual purpose being maintaining status quo = a militaristic empire that protects the ‘rights’ of the affluent 0,01%)

Sad.

 

Pizza man's picture

My goodness, the hypocracy on this site. No fracking in NY..YEAH! But get out of the world's center of energy production! WHOA! First world countries use a lot of energy. Period.

Muslims have been killing "infidels" for ages. AGES! Remember the Barbary coast? Remember a cat named Charles Martel? Thermopylae? Our muslim brothers have no use for peace.Or not enough of them do..and a lot of innicent lives are lost in the game of muslim whack a mole.

Energy independence would go along way to lessening our mideast involvement. But we'll be there for as long as there is "us" or as long as there is "them".

As for "torture". You cats act as if we do it for giggles like Caligula. If I walk out my door and shoot a neighbor. It's murder. If I walk out my door and shoot a guy with a knife about to stab my neighbor, it's 100% justified, moral and so on.

The very jerks who wrote this biased piece of shit of a "report/study" on terror told the CIA to "do anything" to prevent another attack.

What world do you people live in? Not the real one.

 

 

 

TungstenBars's picture

But get out of the world's center of energy production! WHOA! First world countries use a lot of energy. Period.

 

It's not your energy. If you want it try diplomacy.

Better yet turn off a couple of the TVs in your house. 

detached.amusement's picture

and committing acts of war just to ensure it hits the petrodollar market is stupidly immoral

Civilizedworm's picture

Wait....pizzaman? Are you from florida? (OT)

Iwanttoknow's picture

Thermopylae? persian empire was zorostrian at that time.

TBT or not TBT's picture

The Germans didn't bomb Thermopylae.   That was the Persians. Who were not Islamic.   Zoroastrian maybe.  Anyway, for the rest of your screed I have little objection.  You were on a roll.  Islam has always been a religion of bloody uncompromising enslaving raping and torturing pillage and conquest, except when and where it ran out of conquest to do, or got stopped by force of arms.    Confined, it rots most pathetically.   Take the world's Muslim countries, please.   

Memedada's picture

RE: Pizza 'man'

Sadly, I share the world with intellectual midgets like you.

Well, your posts is ignorant on all the subjects you mention. I’ll rebut some of them.

First, there’re many (only) arguments against fracking. Fracking is – like most ‘economic’ activities in US – a pyramid-scheme/a Ponzi-scheme. The business case for fracking is negative – it cost more dollars to get the energy than you get out (ROI is negative). But it’s good for the banksters financing the circus and for the propaganda-machine glorifying the US’s new-won energy-independence (also a big hoax). Fracking is an environmental catastrophe – the chemicals used to frack destroys the groundwater and the environment above. These ‘externalities’ are paid by the generations to come (if there’ll be new generations in your devastated ‘homeland’/Vaterland).

“The very jerks who wrote this biased piece of shit of a "report/study" on terror told the CIA to "do anything" to prevent another attack.” Are you kidding? It’s the CIA/NSA who’s behind most of the attacks (either directly or through a proxy). More important, that ‘mandate’ was not a mandate to torture. Torture DOESN’T WORK! At least not towards it’s stated purpose of gaining intelligence. ‘Intelligence’ gathered through torture is per definition unreliable – and therefore of more harm than good if CIA actually wants to prevent terrorism (and of course they don’t – they foster, support and carry out terrorism themselves). The torture was in fact carried out to get the expected unreliable intelligence needed to propagandize the continued warfare of the US empire.

 

the_magician's picture

I say, enough with all this torture that, obambie this or FX tomorrow. The shit is real, petunias. Thousands, scratch the fuck it, millions were killed and still being killed. Why the fuck is this circus even discussed? It is obvious, everywhere you look, that we  are gone far far into insane and surrealistic.    

We are past anything we are doing, long time ago.

Bring the stone age, I say! Let the limp wristed idiots of the world have some proper fear, work and living.

effendi's picture

Fuck You Tungstenbars.

It isn't their (muslims) lands in the Middle East. It belongs more to the native people who are often not muslim. Copts, Assyrians, Druze, Zoroastrans, Sephardic Jews and others have more claim to the land than the fucking muslims. Egypt and the rest of North Africa was at one stage 90-100% Christian just before the arab invasion and was a generally peaceful place

America wasn't in the region when the Barbary pirates were killing Americans in the Atlantic and the same shit would still happen if there were no Americans there now.

If the fuckers in al qaida, ISIS, Ikhwan etc  don't wear uniforms and seek to blend in to their families homes it isn't any wonder that lots of their women and children get killed. Most of those 90% are not innocent but are intentionally allowing the fuckers to hide in their villages and homes. Turn your village into barracks and munitions depots for the fuckers and that makes those home/villages a legitimate target.

As for the use of torture; the US shouldn't be doing it but I have no sympathy for the fuckers who were tortured. Per the Geneva Convention they should have been executed when captured.

Memedada's picture

You ‘sir’ is a moron.

I don’t actually know why I waste time replying to you, but here goes.

1.       Do your ‘logic’ about who ‘owns’ the land in the middle east apply to all countries? Meaning, that 99% in USA should bow their heads to their new rightful masters (the indigenous population – i.e. the ‘indians’)? Should Australia give the country back to the aboriginals? Should archaeology be the new primary political science (=the further back you can ‘dig’ the more rightful owners you can find)?

2.       Al-Qaeda and ISIL/ISIS are US created entities. Al-Qaeda basically means the ‘database’ and is referring to the database created by CIA to enroll partisans for their guerilla war against USSR in Afghanistan. ISIL/ISIS was created and supported to fight Assad in Syria (and on the greater chessboard to destabilize the region – give a pretext for continued imperial war in the region)

3.       ALL religions are – when institutionalized and made to serve TPTB – a menace. Muslims are the scapegoat of today – Jews in the past. Maybe Hindus will be next (and you’ll be right there with your masters cheering for the dehumanization of them).

4.       You clearly know nothing about the Geneva Convention (either). There’s no green card for executing prisoners of war. Especially without a judge ruling you guilty of war crimes – most of your leaders (US) however qualify for this sanction. The supreme crime of war is the actual war itself (aggression is punished by death according to the Geneva Convention – as applied in the Nuremberg-process) – all your presidents and ministers are guilty of this crime against humanity (+ hundreds of others)

I could go on. But it bores me to debate on this level.

Tall Tom's picture

Troops out of uniform are not soldiers, but spies. Espionage in wartime is a death penalty offense.

 

So what uniform does ISIS wear?

 

I am not agreeing with any war. In fact I am in total disagreement with most wars.

 

But when soldiers are posing as civilians then they are summarily shot....NOT TORTURED.

Memedada's picture

From the Geneva Convention part IV:

"Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention [my emphasis]".

In short NO YOU CAN NOT (and at the same time comply with the Geneva Convention) summarily execute prisoners of war (no matter how they dress). And yes, US does it all the time – droning ‘suspects’ daily.

Tall Tom's picture

Thanks. I was unaware. Too much Hollywood programming for me. I stand corrected.

artless's picture

RE: Geneva Convention

I'm pretty sure the whole "summarily executed" idea stems from WWII and FDR's treatment of a particular case of Nazi spies in the US on the North East seaboard. That event pre-dates the Geneva ratification in 1949.

So I doubt it's the fact that Tall Tom fell for programming. Previous posts indicate that would be diffcult.

artless's picture

"America wasn't in the region when the Barbary pirates were killing Americans in the Atlantic and the same shit would still happen if there were no Americans there now."

Dude, they were PIRATES. Some American ships and crew were attacked by pirates not explicitly due to our intervention in the Middle East as stated on numerous occasions by those people who we call terrorists.

And please don't go into the whole 9-11 claptrap. If you actually believe it was not an orchestrated false flag a la Pearl Harbor, Tonlin Gulf, etc then debating you or Headbanger (above is pointless).

For fuck's sake there are government documents that show planning scenarios for such an "attack". Never mind the problems with the physics.

"but I have no sympathy for the fuckers who were tortured."

Did you read the article? Are you actually saying you have NO SYMPATHY for the Canadian citizen who was kidnapped by the US, sent to Syria and tortured? Or the German guy? Do you actually think that these two are the only innocent bystanders? Are you that fucking delusion? Are you that much of a fucking pussified scared shitless fuchyeahamerika tool that you think that any day now some rag tag bunch of illiterate, dirt poor, virgin seeking, box cutter totoing nitwits is gonna do a home invasion on your whiet picket fence McMansion? Cause last time I checked that can be done at will. In fact any of the scenarios put out by the propaganda machine regarding possible terrorism can be pulled off without so much as a hitch.

So tell me why has that not happened? You mean to tell me that because we tortured some innocent Canadians that THAT prevented all those scary plans being made by all those scary Mooslims? Really?

Oh and the FBI and the Police et al have foiled all the other plans. Just in a nick of time. Which of course is quite easy when you are the folks INSTIGATING THE PLOTS and entrapping the "evildoers".

We have for GENERATIONS used our military might to wreak havoc on countless nations in order to pave the way for industry or simply keep a population in chaos (Middle East policy-see PNAC) so as to fortify our position in the world in regard socio-political power, industry, and most of all FINANCE (that would be the criminal entity institution at which you most likely bank) which all in return provides for the PONZI scheme financing of the Greatest Crinimal Entity on the planet The Fedral Government of The United States which I would bet YOU VOTED FOR and continue to finance by paying your "voluntary" taxes.

And just in case you need another example to illustrate the massive flaw in your logic, I guess you feel no sympathy for all the poor, inocent Laotians, Cambodians, and Vietnamese, who were incinerated in the 60's and 70's by our government and your tax dollars who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Obvioulsy worth it all because the rice farming fuckers wre gonna tear down all we hold dear, right? Never mind they were ten thousand miles away.

And just for ironies of all ironies the STILL COMMUNIST Vietnam is now a major trading partner.

Good thing all those 57,000 American kids died for THAT. But of course they are heros, right?

 

Buy hey, they'll NEVER torture or otherwise commit violence on YOU if you don't cough up the cash. So who cares, right?