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60 Prominent Germans Appeal Against Another War In Europe: "It Is Not About Putin. What Is At Stake Is Europe"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Two weeks ago, as the S&P was preparing to surge on the latest round of all time high market-goosing algo trickery by the FOMC, 60 prominent German personalities from the realms of politics, economics, culture and the media were less concerned with blinking red and green stock quotes and were focused on something far more serious to the future of the world: the threat of war with Russia.

In a letter published by Germany's Die Zeit, numerous famous and respected Germans including a former president and former prime minister write "Wieder Krieg in Europa? Nicht in unserem Namen!", or, roughly translated, "War in Europe Again? Not in Our Names!"

The open letter to the German government, parliament, and media, excerpted here, was signed by more than 60 prominent German personalities and published in the weekly Die Zeit on Dec. 5. The initiators were Horst Teltschik (CDU), advisor to then-Chancellor Helmut Kohl at the time German of reunification; Walther Stützle (SPD), former Secretary of State for the Ministry of Defense; and Antje Vollmer (Greens), former Bundestag Vice President. Teltschik said, in motivating the appeal, “We are giving a political signal that the justified criticism of Russia’s Ukraine policy should not wipe out all the progress that we have made in the past 25 years in relations with Russia.”

Below is an excerpted translation (source) of the original letter found here.

Nobody wants war. But North America, the European Union, and Russia are inevitably driving towards war if they do not finally halt the disastrous spiral of threats and counter-threats. All Europeans, including Russia, are jointly responsible for peace and security. Only those who do not lose sight of this goal can avoid fatal actions.

The Ukraine conflict shows that the quest for power and domination has not been overcome. In 1990, at the end of the Cold War, we all hoped that it would be. But the success of the détente policy and the peaceful revolutions allowed people to become lethargic and careless. In both East and West. The Americans, Europeans, and Russians all lost, as their guiding principle, the idea of permanently banishing war from their relationship. Otherwise it is impossible to explain either the West’s eastward expansion without simultaneously deepening cooperation with Moscow—a policy which Russia sees as a threat—or Putin’s annexation of Crimea in violation of international law.

At this moment of great danger for the continent, Germany has a special responsibility for the maintenance of peace. Without the will for reconciliation of the people of Russia, without the foresight of Mikhail Gorbachov, without the support of our Western allies, and without the prudent action by the then-Federal government, the division of Europe would not have been overcome. To allow German unification to evolve peacefully was a great gesture, shaped by the wisdom of the victorious powers. It was a decision of historic proportions.

Once the division of Europe was overcome, permanent peace and security, from Vancouver to Vladivostok, should have developed, as had been agreed by all the 35 heads of state and government of the OSCE member states in November 1990, in the “Charter of Paris for a New Europe.”. . . This goal of postwar policy has not been achieved to this day. People in Europe are forced to live in fear once again.

We, the undersigned, appeal to the Federal Government of Germany to assume its responsibility for peace in Europe. We need a new policy of détente in Europe. This is only possible on the basis of equal security for all and mutually respected partners. The German government is not pursuing a go-it-alone policy, as long as it  continues to call, during this stalemate, for calm and dialogue with Russia. The need of the Russians for security is as legitimate as is that of the Germans, the Poles, the Baltic States, and the Ukrainians.

We must also not push Russia out of Europe....  Since the Congress of Vienna in 1814, Russia has been a recognized global player in Europe. All who have tried to change that have failed violently, the last being the megalomaniacal Germany of Hitler, which set out in 1941 to murderously subjugate Russia.

We call upon the members of the German Bundestag, delegated by the people as their political representatives, to deal appropriately with the seriousness of the situation. . . . Whoever is constructing a bogeyman, putting the blame on only one side, is exacerbating tensions, when the signals should be for de-escalation.

We appeal to the media, to more scrupulously adhere to their obligation to provide unbiased reporting than they have hitherto done. Editorialists and leading commentators are demonizing entire nations, without fully taking their histories into account. Any journalist experienced in foreign affairs would understand the Russians’ fear, since members of NATO in 2008 invited Georgia and Ukraine to join the Alliance. It is not about Putin. Heads of state come and go. What is at stake is Europe.

On October 3, 1990, the Day of German Reunification, Federal President Richard von Weizäcker said: “The Cold War has been overcome, and freedom and democracy will soon be in place in all countries. . . . This is a challenge. We can achieve it, but we can also fail. We are facing the clear alternative to unite Europe or fall back again into painful historical examples of nationalist conflicts in Europe.”

Until the Ukraine conflict, we here in Europe thought we were on the right track. Today, a quarter of a century later, Richard von Weizäcker’s warning is more apropos than ever.

* * *

The full list of signatories:

Mario Adorf, actor
Robert Antretter (Bundestag ret.)
Prof. Dr. Wilfried Bergmann (Vice – President of the Alma Mater Europaea)
Prince Luitpold of Bavaria (Royal Holding and license KG)
Achim von Borries (director and writer)
Klaus Maria Brandauer (Actor, Director)
Dr. Eckhard Cordes (Chairman of the Committee on Eastern European Economic Relations)
Prof. Dr. Herta Däubler-Gmelin (Minister of Justice Retired)
Eberhard Diepgen (Former Governing Mayor of Berlin)
Dr. Klaus von Dohnanyi (Mayor of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg)
Alexander van Dülmen (A-Board Company Filmed Entertainment AG)
Stefan Dürr (Managing Partner and CEO Ekosem-Agrar GmbH)
Dr. Erhard Eppler (Federal Minister for Development and Cooperation retired)
Prof. Dr. Heino Falcke (Propst iR)
Prof. Hans-Joachim Frey (CEO Semper Opera Ball Dresden)
Father Anselm Grün (Fr.)
Sibylle Havemann (Berlin)
Dr. Roman Herzog (Former President)
Christoph Hein (writer)
Dr. Dr. hc Burkhard Hirsch (Bundestag Vice President retd)
Volker horns (Academy Director Retired)
Joseph Jacobi (organic farmer)
Dr. Sigmund Jähn (former astronaut)
Uli Jörges (journalist)
Prof. Dr. Dr. hc Margot Käßmann (EKD Council President and former bishop)
Dr. Andrea von Knoop (Moscow)
Prof. Dr. Gabriele Krone-Schmalz (former correspondent for the ARD in Moscow)
Friedrich Küppersbusch (journalist)
Vera Gräfin von Lehndorff (artist)
Irina Liebmann (writer)
Dr. hc Lothar de Maizière (Former Prime Minister)
Stephen Märki (artistic director of the theater Bern)
Prof. Dr. Klaus Mangold (Chairman Mangold Consulting GmbH)
Reinhard Mey and Hella (Songwriter)
Ruth Misselwitz (Protestant pastor Pankow)
Klaus Prömpers (journalist)
Prof. Dr. Konrad Raiser (eh. General Secretary of the World Council of Churches World)
Jim rocket (Photographer)
Gerhard Rein (journalist)
Michael Röskau (Secretary ret)
Eugen Ruge (writer)
Dr. hc Otto Schily (Federal Minister of the Interior Retired)
Dr. hc Friedrich Schorlemmer (ev. theologian, civil rights)
Georg Schramm (comedian)
Gerhard Schröder (former chancellor)
Philipp von Schulthess (Actor)
Ingo Schulze (writer)
Hanna Schygulla (actress, singer)
Dr. Dieter Spöri (Minister of Economics)
Prof. Dr. Fulbert Steffensky (Cath. Theologian)
Dr. Wolf-D. Stelzner (Managing Partner: Institute for WDS analyzes in cultures mbH)
Dr. Manfred Stolpe (Former Prime Minister)
Dr. Ernst-Jörg von Studnitz (Ambassador)
Prof. Dr. Walther Stützle (secretary of defense Retired)
Prof. Dr. Christian R. Supthut (Board Member Retired)
Prof. Horst Teltschik (former adviser at the Federal Office for Security and Foreign Policy)
Andres Veiel (Director)
Dr. Hans-Jochen Vogel (Federal Minister of Justice retd)
Dr Antje Vollmer (Vice-President of the German Bundestag Retired)
Bärbel Wartenberg-Potter (Lübeck Bishop retired)
Dr. Ernst Ulrich von Weizsäcker (scientists)
Wim Wenders (Director)
Wenzel (Songwriter)
Gerhard Wolf (writer, publisher)

 

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Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:28 | 5594123 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

NEIN-ty nine luftballons bitchez!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:34 | 5594149 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

We vill have Var! ONWARD neocon soldiers......er wait.......onward Christian soldiers....neocons to the rear

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:37 | 5594158 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

I thought it was 6 million dreidels

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:44 | 5594188 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

USSA wants a war with Russians.  

The USSA will get their war.  This is almost a foregone conclusion at this point.  

The important questions are;

1) When
2) Where
3) Who is on whos side
4) Who will sit it out

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:44 | 5594192 TungstenBars
TungstenBars's picture

Germany can still stop this. Does it have the political will to destroy Americas empire?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:51 | 5594200 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

I think the best thing Germany could do is sit it out and refuse to fight.  

Let Poland (who lets be honest -- would love to have another go at the Russians with American backing) take the worst of the onslaught,  and then come in thereafter and clean up the (financial) mess -- of course, with its fair share of kickbacks and free shit from the Russians.  

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:54 | 5594220 TungstenBars
TungstenBars's picture

Poland...what a brainwashed bunch of idiots in that country. I kind of feel sorry they fall prey to the russophobic propaganda so fucking easily. 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:01 | 5594236 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

The Polacks are known morons, and matter little.

 

The real question is what dirt the NSA has on Merkel that makes her the USSA lapdog?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:20 | 5594278 0b1knob
0b1knob's picture

Amazing.  The Germans beat the French in preemptively surrendering.     Sauerkraut eating surrender monkeys.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:32 | 5594304 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Bankers need a distraction from the coming half quadrillion dollar derivatives structure collapse even larger than the 2001 Pentagon distraction from the 3 trillion dollar unaccounted expense scam.

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:51 | 5594348 BuddyEffed
BuddyEffed's picture

This open letter is intelligent and good natured and it asks for and brings good faith.  The German peoples have always been very intelligent at this level.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:00 | 5594374 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

It wasnt always like this. But someone would have to switch off the net to bring us back into darkness. :)

The middleclass people here dont buy the state propaganda anymore. We will see where this leads us...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:52 | 5594486 Jeff the Terrible
Jeff the Terrible's picture

Any war between the US and Russia would last about two months and end in American owned strip malls and fast food restaurants blanketing the backwards country

 

http://y2u.be/VI6tBwVjyOY

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:18 | 5594540 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

Says the spammer who obviously lives on a diet of paint chips...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:39 | 5594590 Thirtyseven
Thirtyseven's picture

At least we know who the likely Hasbara are.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:50 | 5594608 Arius
Arius's picture

Do you want your gold now?

 

Who is your dady? 

 

I cannot hear you???

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:45 | 5594718 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

I hope the chosenites get their war that they have been asking for, starting with nuclear bombs sent to Israel for 40 days and 40 nights

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:58 | 5594761 Christophe2
Christophe2's picture

LOL at this BS letter from past and present professional politicians: "justified criticism of Russia’s Ukraine policy should not wipe out all the progress...".

PUH-LEAZE.  This is just more distractions from the professional distracters and their CIA-controlled media.

The German population is not nearly as retarded as Americans, and far too many of them have stopped paying attention to mainstream sources, in large part due to the gross lies about Ukraine's neo-Nazi coup.

This is just another lame attempt to pull the sheep back into the fold.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:06 | 5594782 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Sounds like those German chosenites that are scared shitless are begging their greedy German Chosenite friends to back down. They're afraid a nuclear war will cut into their profits

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:48 | 5594917 Comte de Saint ...
Comte de Saint Germain's picture

At this stage, the only way to avert a thermonuclear war between NATO and the Sino-Russian axis, is letting the Russian Federation to military occupy Ukraine, destroy the country's armed forces, quarantine the political class sympathetic to the west, and make of this failed state a loose confederation of provinces, in which ethnic Russians can be governed under the umbrella of Mother Russia.

Anything less than that is just another step closer to a major nuclear confrontation.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:56 | 5594933 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

No. The only way to handle this mess is to actively ignore the Ukraine crisis, in western and eastern capitals. No hostile acts anymore. Silence it.

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:11 | 5595098 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

You sound like the typical Chosenite, you want to steal to your hearts content without ever having any negative consequences.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:52 | 5595181 old naughty
old naughty's picture

PTB planned and executes...oligarchs listen and follow (not to)...sheeples only talk and dream...

que sera sera...

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:23 | 5595785 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

Welcome to Matrix bitches...

 

Reality is what we ssy it is.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 02:12 | 5595493 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

You know, your "chosenites" would like to see "Gomer and Magok" united, makes bombing easier to sell. Ask Mr. "private agency" Friedman:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie...

This time Germany will be the laughing third party. Need some moare woar? Not our business, have fun! :)

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 05:33 | 5595620 winchester
winchester's picture

nobody understand a classic war style like 14 or 40 is no longer possible,  you do not invade to break, shrink, divide lands.

this not works like this anymore.

 

crimea was a call back from population itself.

 

ussa will not go in russian land,  trigger missile on monuments and destroy everything until poutin say i surrender then put  nazi in president slot.... come on.

 

the war is now, at the moment, it is money.

 

only thing that can happen on such blocks size is manipulating masse to riot to collapse civilisation from inside.

 

the nuke story, all weaponry, it is all theater.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:29 | 5595793 MalteseFalcon
MalteseFalcon's picture

As the sole “Hyper-power” and the head of the “uni-polar” world in 1990, the US could have shaped many different possible worlds.  We now see their creation.  It is unworthy of ideals upon which the US was founded.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 11:27 | 5596083 Manthong
Manthong's picture

+100 on that observation.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:31 | 5595798 MalteseFalcon
MalteseFalcon's picture

The time for integrating Russia into Europe was 1990. Europe has had itself a nice, long snooze and now a nasty wake-up call.

A 3rd time will not be a charm.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:24 | 5595928 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

yes they obsessed about the Euro superstructure instead of building foundations

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:43 | 5595799 MalteseFalcon
MalteseFalcon's picture

.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:18 | 5595858 Arnold
Arnold's picture

And polish up the mothballed A 10s.

(for self defence of borders of course, wink wink.)

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:36 | 5594880 weburke
weburke's picture

"the last being the megalomaniacal Germany of Hitler, which set out in 1941 to murderously subjugate Russia." ? 

This is the writings of guys with doctorates?  

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:44 | 5594903 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Hitler was a saint. The Chosenites ganged up against him. They knew that he was right on target. "Money created as CREDIT, and re-injected back into the very BOTTM of the economic pyramid".

Those words are to a Banker what light is to a Vampire.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:20 | 5594973 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

Hitler wasnt a saint, he played a copy of the same game.

"... that violence is broken only by violence and terror by terror. Only then can a new regime be created by means of constructive work."

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:14 | 5595104 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Not a copy of the same game. The Chosenites were using the Peoples printing press to buy up all the food sources and resources. We the people used our printing press to produce food and resources. Sad, but they got the our printing press back away from us again.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 07:42 | 5595747 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

We the people used our printing press to produce food and resources.

You may be beyond professional help. Your lack of understanding is only superceded by your hatred of the Jews. It is obvious that you lump them all together - no, not one innocent, while blithely ignoring all the ethnic German profiteers from the folly of Versailles. If a Jew saw the writing on the wall and positioned themselves correctly, was it still proof of collusion and foreknowledge? Of course, you say - kill them. Then you compound your ignorance by saying "we however, printed food and resources". Ignorant fool, who exactly is these we you speak of? The people in your head? Understand this - these "chosenites" whom you despise, gave us the only truly workable system, and it was the nature of all mankind to screw it up.  

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:00 | 5595895 Dame Ednas Possum
Dame Ednas Possum's picture

Oh...and should we the goyim now express our undying gratitude to the chosenites and their sympathisers for their boundless selflessness, charity and benevolence?

Save your dribble for the front steps of the temple you lowlife shill.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:03 | 5595897 harrybrown
harrybrown's picture

This Whole story is classic crafted Zio-jewish BS well done ZH, the writer should hung & the guy who submitted it, along with the bosses in the fiat printing business.
Read christopher Story's "European Union - Enemy within its member states" written in 1974.
The use of celebs & the famous to play the final cruel hoax on the goyim.
The Zionits started the last two World Wars and they're going to make it a hatrick if they have their way.
There are no countries, just a world to be taken into private hands.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 15:13 | 5596767 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Are you Michael Caine's  Harry Brown ?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:30 | 5594577 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

"Any war between the US and Russia would last about two months"

I am shure Napoleon and Hitler said the same bevore they had tried it... ;)

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:47 | 5594604 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Doubtful as both had no illusion of war by that time.

Not true this go around. "Red Badge of Courage" is everywhere and always a good read. These matters take on a life of their own once underway. Hence "peace fighters."

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:21 | 5594671 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

IMO "Red Badge of Courage" wasn't even Stephen Crane's best. I prefer "The Open Boat"

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:49 | 5594731 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Nixon was Chosenite número uno

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:45 | 5595817 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

Yeah...and he prayed with Kissinger.

 

It didn't help him.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 05:37 | 5595627 stilletto
stilletto's picture

Agree. Just look at how the USA and allies sorted Afganistan - with its modern arms - in 2 months! And Iraq was all fixed in 2 months as well!!!!!!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:28 | 5594688 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Jeffy babe...everytime you post an animal dies...I eat another piece of chicken and think of you.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:36 | 5594876 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Icky Jeffy, I will post a link to my two freezers, 40 chickens, slit their little throats myself..  1/2 a beef cow shot him.  I am an apex predator.  Find your predator find a better life, your count will soar.

Germans against war, good for them since all their men pee sitting down now probably best..

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:31 | 5595146 scrappy
scrappy's picture

Get to work HAMBERG-ler.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 04:48 | 5595601 Urtica ferox
Urtica ferox's picture

Errr... but the "backwards country" is ALREADY blanketed by American owned strip malls and fast food restaurants ... you were referrring to the USSA all along, right? Maybe you don't get out that much?

Addendum - any war would last only a few hours and the USSA will end up as a glass-floored glow-in-the dark parking lot.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:43 | 5594717 Dugald
Dugald's picture

" The German peoples have always been very intelligent at this level."

Tell that to those who died as a result of WWll

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:50 | 5594736 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Those who died were those that started the fight. Too bad they didn't Lear, their kind are going to die this time too. Chosenites never learn.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 11:37 | 5596087 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

Dugald, you have been reading the government issued version of WW2. There is no way under the sun that Germany could be flat busted broke in  1929 and able to take on the whole would 10 years later. NO WAY. They got a lot of help from those who claimed to be on our side. The central bankers had Germany in the crosshairs for a long time. 

http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_Hitler-5.pdf

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:47 | 5594913 noben
noben's picture

"The German peoples have always been very intelligent at this level."

Knowing what the Right Thing is, and having the spine and balls to do it, are two different pairs of shoes.  Don't confuse one with the other, as the Germans seem to.

"Not Acting" is also a decision, even if it's a coward's way out.  But, to keep perspective, remember that this comes down to ONE of TWO choices:

      1. Keep the EurAsian Silk Road going, and tell the Yankee war-mongers "Go take a hike!", or

      2. Suffer and Bleed for the Yankee war-mongers.

There are NO other choices, Fritz.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 06:33 | 5595695 Bingo Hammer
Bingo Hammer's picture

The open letter contains quite a number of subtle disinfo's...eg "or Putin’s annexation of Crimea in violation of international law." - no such thing happened 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:56 | 5594363 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

This time the world will do nothing to support another war, even if some mic idiot would nuke Manhattan!

This time the empire has to pay its debt alone. Obamba should ask the east coast folks for a jubilee year! ;)

 

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:20 | 5594544 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

@0b1knob

Ah, the 'ol French surrender jokes !

This kind of ugly disdain and nasty jokes come from the firm refusal of the French to join America in Irak, in 2003.

Since France refused to go to Iraq, American warmongers and neo-cons made French army look like cowards – as a punishment.

But History has proved the French were right, and that the WMD were only a dirty trick to serve as a pretext.

Nevertheless, the hate of American warmongers against France remains still there, well alive, even in ZH.

This stale hate still shows through "innocent good jokes" about the “surrender monkeys” and their white flag … As for the rest, the French can be proud of their Military History which remains despite these stupid jokes the best military record in Europe.

In fact the French - surrounded by the Germans, English, Dutch, Italians and Spaniards (among others) - succeeded to win and guard the largest country in the very heart of Europe.

According to the British historian Niall Ferguson they did it by fighting 168 major wars even against such badasses as the Roman Empire, the British Army and the Turkish forces. They've won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armed_Forces

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:59 | 5594635 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This kind of ugly disdain and nasty jokes come from the firm refusal of the French to join America in Irak, in 2003.

You can't be an american...  the french have been made fun of for many decades prior to 2003...  You're welcome for vietnam btw.

According to the British historian Niall Ferguson they did it by fighting 168 major wars even against such badasses as the Roman Empire, the British Army and the Turkish forces. They've won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10 times.

If you're forced to invoke war glory from a couple thousand years ago, then you've lost the argument...  aside from the fact that is a terrible record...  what point are you trying to make, the french are not worthless, they're just the bad news bears of war?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:41 | 5595016 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

The Americans didn't save the French in Vietnam. The Americans just thought they could move in and take this part of the French colonial empire that the French could no longer maintain to add to the American colonies in southeast Asia.

The Vietnamese, to their everlasting credit, taught the Americans the same lesson they gave the French.

Any problems the French army may have had were not due to cowardice of the French soldier. He is as good as any American, German, Russian or British soldier.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 11:30 | 5596086 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Care to address any of the material issues raised in my post?  Again, I have heard french jokes all my life...  you know, like "it's a french car, 2 gears in forward, 5 in reverse."  It has nothing to do with france's refusal to participate in iraq...  I'm guessing it even predates the world wars, but that's before my time.

Also, america's intervention in vietnam gave the french a chance to pass the baton, history ultimately caring most about america's involvement.  America didn't save France in Vietnam, but it certainly provided political cover for a beaten france to gracefully bow out.  Again, you're welcome.

Further, considering vietnam was nothing but a proxy war, are you really going to claim that it was solely the vietnamese who taught the lesson?

In addition, what was the lesson exactly?  America got to dramatically increase the size and scope of its military industrial complex, which set the stage to win the cold war and punitively impose the dollar for decades to come...  occupation of the country was never the goal and we killed them 10-20:1 on the battlefield (never losing a battle).  Call it what you like...

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 14:08 | 5596594 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

The French lost Dien Bien Phu because they were screwed by NATO (ie. the US).

They had to specialize in jets while others in Europe had to specialize in bombers.

And when it came to fight Communism (the Viet Cong, massively helped by Soviet Union and China's troops) ... guess what... the US refused the NATO to get involved.

They had to fight the war without bombers, as in 1954 they had very few of these kind of planes.

Another nice lesson from a long list for French morons who believe America is a reliable ally, and even a friend of France. For those who should have any doubt, the reading of French-bashing in ZH is instructive enough …

And guess what... who had to fight the Vietnam war after the US sabotaged French effort  ?

Besides that, in 1954, when the French were finally defeated in Vietnam, they had 50,000 troops and their biggest planes were Douglas A26 and C47’s, and Vought Corsairs.

When the US was defeated by the same enemy some twenty years later, they had 550,000 troops, B52’s, napalm, missiles, big helicopters, the works …

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 19:36 | 5597347 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Besides that, in 1954, when the French were finally defeated in Vietnam, they had 50,000 troops and their biggest planes were Douglas A26 and C47’s, and Vought Corsairs.

When the US was defeated by the same enemy some twenty years later, they had 550,000 troops, B52’s, napalm, missiles, big helicopters, the works …

Which battle were we defeated in exactly?  The one where we just left or the one where we just left?  It's kind of like saying you won a fight when the other guy got tired of beating your face and left...  and that was with at least one arm behind our back (you act like the french were the only ones with political parameters).

I don't give a shit about france...  my point was that american's disdain for the french started long before their refusal to participate in iraq...  I don't think a single american cares about france's lack of participation in iraq...  it may even give you more respect.  Americans didn't want our troops over there either... 

PS, if you want a good ally, then build a fence and get a guard dog...  if you're complaining about someone else playing the game better, then fuck off...  we'll be on the list of has beens soon enough and then you can talk shit, but until that day...

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 14:26 | 5596635 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

The only material issue I could ascertain that you were raising was the extensive French experience with war is not educational. I suggest the opposite is true. The French jokes we have heard suggest a rather big lie. I don't know where that propaganda originated. The suggestions of cowardice of the French soldier is bullshit. The fact that the French declined to be involved in Iraq is to their credit. The Iraq War is one of the most unjust and unjustifiable conflicts Americans have ever been involved in.

Some French cars weren't very good. Some American cars aren't and weren't very good either. The opposite is also true.

Vietnam was much more than a proxy war. The real motives of TPTB that controlled the CIA and its Vietnamese adventures have still not been completely revealed.

"we killed them 10-20:1 on the battlefield (never losing a battle). Call it what you like..."

Yes, it was just like shooting fish in a barrel, eh? You're proud of that record? They were defending their homes with rather primitive weapons while America's MIC was getting rich. It wasn't pretty.

The French colonial record was not so pretty either.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 19:29 | 5597338 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The only material issue I could ascertain that you were raising was the extensive French experience with war is not educational. I suggest the opposite is true. The French jokes we have heard suggest a rather big lie. I don't know where that propaganda originated. The suggestions of cowardice of the French soldier is bullshit. The fact that the French declined to be involved in Iraq is to their credit. The Iraq War is one of the most unjust and unjustifiable conflicts Americans have ever been involved in.

Some French cars weren't very good. Some American cars aren't and weren't very good either. The opposite is also true.

Well, there are two aspects to the jokes: (1) they do suggest a cowardice [or self preservation; sometimes it's hard to tell between the two]; but (2) they suggest that the french just suck at war.  Again, if you have to invoke battles from a few hundred years prior as evidence to the contrary, then it's a fairly strong indicator...

I guess you guys are mopping up in africa atm though... 

Vietnam was much more than a proxy war. The real motives of TPTB that controlled the CIA and its Vietnamese adventures have still not been completely revealed.

OK, so it's much more important than the most important thing possible...  but you're not sure what that might be and can't provide any examples?  Got it...

"we killed them 10-20:1 on the battlefield (never losing a battle). Call it what you like..."

Yes, it was just like shooting fish in a barrel, eh? You're proud of that record? They were defending their homes with rather primitive weapons while America's MIC was getting rich. It wasn't pretty.

The French colonial record was not so pretty either.

Call it what you want...  we never lost a battle and we achieved our objective (you don't think the protestors had a say do you?).  If you can buy into the notion that the war was about issues much larger than the war, and following the war the US MIC beefed up as world bully, then why is it so hard for you to simply concede the issue?

Sun, 12/28/2014 - 10:54 | 5598619 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

"(1) they do suggest a cowardice [or self preservation; sometimes it's hard to tell between the two]; but (2) they suggest that the french just suck at war.  Again, if you have to invoke battles from a few hundred years prior as evidence to the contrary, then it's a fairly strong indicator..."

OK, let's see more recent wars

- WW1

World War I cost France 1,697,800 dead and 4,266,000 wounded (of whom 1.5 million were permanently maimed) and 537,000 made prisoner or missing - exactly 73% of the 8,410,000 men mobilized (for a total population of 40 million).

This means that 60% of men between the ages of 18 and 28 died or were permanently maimed.

You can have an idea of what these figures woud represent for the present population of the US:

13,412,000 dead and 33,701,400 wounded (of whom 11,850,000 permanently maimed) and 4,242,000 made prisoner or missing. Can you imagine US reaction to casualties on that scale?

And the French DID NOT SURRENDER (the stupid Jay Leno's style jokes are not funny) … and they  were not at all defeated in 1918 when the US endly decided to came significantly in action (1 division) at the battle of Seicheprey in April 1918 (only 7 months before the end the war).

 

- WW2

 

In 1939 and 1940 France was let alone (apart from only 8 British divisions, which succeeded to quickly re-embark at Dunkirk thanks to the sacrifice of the soldiers of the 1st French Army of the North ).

France was let alone facing a nazi-fanaticized country with a population of 80 million (vs. 40 million in France), a particularly well prepared war-industry, and an air superiority of 5 vs 1. 

At the same time the “US ally” refused to sell planes on credit to France !

Contrary to what has often been said, and is a result of the Nazi propaganda of that time, and the neo-cons hatred in 2003, the German advance (Blitzkrieg) encountered serious resistance from the French troops.In the six week Battle of France, from May 10 to June 22, 1940, the French lost, in military personnel alone, 260,000 wounded and 108,000 killed. A total of 368,000 casualties in six weeks is not something to pass off lightly.

This is 5 times more than the losses of the American army in three months of battles in Normandy in 1944 (21000), and nearly the same amount than the US deaths in 7 months of WW1 (116700) !

It is the air superiority (over 1,000 Stuka bombers knocked out the troops defending Sedan) and the intelligent use of the German panzers that broke the defenses and made ineluctable the defeat.

Since WW2, air superiority is generally the winning key of all battles …

The 1940 campaign was the most intense of all the battles that will take place later on the Western Front:

the Germans suffered heavy losses in just 6 weeks - approximately 60,000 killed 111 000 injured and above 1250 planes were destroyed which will be greatly missed by the Luftwaffe during the battle of Britain. Struggling one against five, the French fighter planes weakened the Luftvaffe (defeating two German planes for one loss). 

Yes, the Germans gave the French a terrible beating. But it took the combined strength of the United States, Great Britain, Soviet Russia, Canada, etc., to beat the Germans.

It’s asking rather a great deal of France to match such strength against hers – with an air inferiority of 1 vs 5. The US never faced more than 15% of the Wehrmacht – 80% were in the East -  when France had to face alone 100% of Hitler's war machine in 1940 – plus 22 Italian divisions in the south. 

In fact, the Germans would have walked straight over the British or American armies if any of these places would have been directly adjacent to France. Remember that in 1944, at the battle of the Bulge (Ardennes) the Americans were only saved by their planes. Strangely, it is at the very same place that the Germans initially broke the French line.

To conclude: All these old English racist jokes have been revivified since 2003 by the hate of american warmongers against France, and are still remaining even in ZH.

Sun, 12/28/2014 - 17:32 | 5599601 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

To conclude: All these old English racist jokes have been revivified since 2003 by the hate of american warmongers against France, and are still remaining even in ZH.

That's news to me...  I didn't know that france was a race...  also, since I've heard them all my life (and they have been in popular american culture all my life), I can't fathom why you believe there is some sort of larger push since 2003...  you're trying to fit the issue into some personal narrative...  it doesn't exist, move on.

Also, I'm really not sure what the point of your post was...  France threw a lot of people at the germans and they died?  They don't suck at war because a lot of their people died in war and they became occupied?  Maginot line?  C'mon...  you're trolling at this point.

At some point in the future, france may be relevant again...  but please don't conjure the ghost of france's past for any resemblance of its present...  at some point in the future, america will be irrelevant...  this is the nature of the world. 

PS, diplomacy is part of war.

Sun, 12/28/2014 - 21:05 | 5600263 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

At least France’s army didn't surrender and didn't suck at WW1 war,

and it also did not simply surrender or run away in 1940, as ignorant American Know-Nothing conservatives claim.

The suggestions of cowardice of the French soldier are bullshit - coming from these old racist English jokes revivified by the hate of american warmongers since 2003.

But without the fighting frogs you would still be kissing the Queen's arse.

BTW, French is not a race, so there are no racists in this instance ... only prejudiced, hate mongering hypocrites ...

 

 

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:09 | 5594653 MrButtoMcFarty
MrButtoMcFarty's picture

Why did the French plant trees along the Champs Élysées?

So the Nazis could march in the shade.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:43 | 5594714 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Let's see ... the last army to march past the Arc de Triomphe in victory was ???

The one before that was ???

What I can't understand is why, in the HQ-city of NATO, when I order Freedom Fries, they have no idea what I am asking for.  Didn't they get the memo?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:01 | 5594766 Arius
Arius's picture

I insist on Freedom Fries as well ...imagine the sucker who got the kick of coming up with the name ...those fuckers, do not care at all ... a young chap years ago, just started working at Congress some low level thing, said to me once "You never go broke by underestimating the American people" ... that was the brainwashing they go under over there to start with.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 15:02 | 5596743 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

@MrButtoMcFarty

You are a TROLL

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 07:36 | 5595740 Aussie V
Aussie V's picture

IMO you guys should stick to Rugby

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:49 | 5594920 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The US is "led" by "prez" Lance Link, Secret Chimp.

We have enough troubles.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 12:05 | 5596049 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

Ob1knob, the Germans were baited the last two times and still took the fall for starting both. In fact, the book "Germany Must Perish!" published in 1941 advocated the complete destruction of Germany and all its citizens. Maybe the Germans are fed up being dragged into and blamed for wars that are planned by perverted central bankers in their cozy DC conference rooms.

The Gemans should tell the planners to find somebody else this time or maybe send their own children and grandchildren into the battlefield and do their own dirty work for a change. 

http://www.solargeneral.org/wp-content/uploads/library/germany-must-peri...

We were not even in the war when this book was published but our puppet masters already knew how things would turn out. They got a little bit ahead of themselves in hatred and spilled the beans. Normandy, Anzio, Okinawa, none of those lives mattered as long as the planners got their hands on all the socio-economic systems aferwards. 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:34 | 5594317 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

Merkel is the strange piece to all  of this  - she could stop it in a minute - her country is disadvantaged by these policies and the world can see it

we must be nearer to an explosion than before and all are going to pull the stops - I assume will hear from Kissinger very soon with the Germans - he is motivating a strategy independent of these signers - all the air lifts reported in the last two weeks to East Ukraine from the USA with heavy equipment is setting the stage for January action

it is all surreal

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:42 | 5594466 Captain Obvious.
Captain Obvious.'s picture

Merkel assumes the Bonobo defence.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:23 | 5594678 RECISION
RECISION's picture

hahaha  :-)

Very good.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:09 | 5594797 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Let's not insult our Bonobo relatives, they're ten times as intelligent as their distant Chosenite relatives...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:20 | 5594419 nuke ISIS now
nuke ISIS now's picture

Latina..

 

Id call you a cunt, but that would be an insult to all cunts, you racist fuck

 

 

The real question is whether you could ever get that dick out of your mouth long enough to actually understand that you are  fucking inbred fuck tard...fuck you ..and BTW im not a "polack" you fucking douche

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:26 | 5594431 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

You must be a NWO cunt. The Pollocks I know laugh at those jokes. Lighten up douche.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:12 | 5594528 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Can't we be more Politically Correct and call it Summer's Eve?

It's for the children ya know.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:51 | 5595052 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

There's children here? That explains a lot.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 00:49 | 5595346 nuke ISIS now
nuke ISIS now's picture

Hey Fred Hanna Barbara called and they relayed that Barney said to go fuck yorself.

Maybe you need to read Latinas entire post, although i guess you cant becase there can be no posting in pictures  in order for your va-cunt cranium to try and cobble together wht is being discussed

 

The only NWO Nazi would be you fucked up freddie, as apparently you think racist comment are okay...fuckhead

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:59 | 5595920 Dame Ednas Possum
Dame Ednas Possum's picture

'Nuke ISIS now'

Obviously a new account as nobody had even heard of the big bad ISIS 4 months ago...not even my Syrian, Persian and Iraqi colleagues - of which i have plenty liviing here in the ME.

Shalom yid shill. Tell us...what's the hourly rate working for hasbara.

Or are you doing it for the love of being an abnoxious, antisocial freak?

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 18:10 | 5597182 nuke ISIS now
nuke ISIS now's picture

"Shalom yid shill"

Dame, no offense, but go fuck yourself, you condescending swine...

How's that for some Holiday cheer, you cunt

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:55 | 5595976 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I SAID LIGHTEN UP NOW!!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:43 | 5594521 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Hey Nuke Isis now,  calling me a racist fuck is amusing, coming from someone/it that advocates genocide against Russians.

Look up the word hypocrite, you will find your picture beside it.

 

Further, your command of invective falls short even for a  typical inbred fuck tard like myself, with overuse of F  and  C words.  It's  quite pathetic really.

 

Moreover, your over reaction to my characterization of Polacks betrays the secret shame you must feel for your antecedents. You protest too much... paraphrasing a borrowed phrase.

 

Finally, it is reckless,  immature, hateful people like yourself  that promote war. Unlike your  Call of Duty video-game, real battle is a deadly, horrifying, scrotum shrinking terror, something that never leaves you ever.  Only the camaraderie of shared pain with your squadies, provides some consolation.

I hope you never find out what battle is really like.  

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:07 | 5595384 nuke ISIS now
nuke ISIS now's picture

Latina..it is quite amusng to see folks like you pretend to be so called "intellectuals, sitting up high on a perch, looking down upon the peasants...you display the real hatred that has its foundational base from the past where countries such as Germany, an your beloved Russia, prey upon manipulate, and brainwash the proloteriat

Further due to deeply seated inferiority, folks with weak minds like yourself put other races down, lest the spotlight be foisted upon you

Latina, I have forgotten more about world politics than you would ever hope to learn in your useless lifetime, you have no idea who I am or what i know...trust me 

I have no Polish ancestry and even if I did  it would not change the fact that you have a serious inferiority complex,

 I guess the "moron" comment with Polackwas perfectly innocuous right?  fucking douche bag

I see the blatant bashing of America here, I point out, and then Im called the imature hater...what a fucking joke,,well Fuck you you fucking conck suckers...

Newsflash just because the folks here accept yur Russia bUllshit, doest mean im going to sit here and let you rant unopposed..

CUNT

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:49 | 5595571 August
August's picture

Man, I just hate it when somebody foists a spotlight on me.

But, on a brighter not, I am heartened to see that Russia Today has added a fourth broadcast-language to their line-up: as of October, RT is messaging auf Deutsch.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 18:16 | 5597199 nuke ISIS now
nuke ISIS now's picture

Yes August, "foist", maybe your vacant cranium can expand its limited vocabulary.

Here read the definition, you fucking idiot

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foist

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:11 | 5594565 TungstenBars
TungstenBars's picture

Considering your blatent ignorant anti-russian positions that I remember I can safely say that you are a brainwashed polak.

 

Why the WW3 death wish? (serious question)

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:14 | 5595406 nuke ISIS now
nuke ISIS now's picture

I dont have a WWIII death wish, actually...but apparently your supreme fuckhead leader does, or why else would your bomber runs be flyng close to NATO countries ans the US? hmm...so I guess thats Rssias idea of diplomacy i guess

My blantantly ignorat Russian positions? what? Oh I see, because I oppose your little Russia cheerleading party here, means that I have a blatantly ignorant position of Russia, no its called pointing out that you are brainwashed..

 

Feel pity for you

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:12 | 5594658 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Good point Latina Lover, about the blackmail of Merkel. She has proven herself incapable of leadership, she only speaks when the hand of Washington moves her disgusting mouth. There is no credit to the idea that she leads Germany as a German, she leads Germany as the puppet whose fear of the USA is total. Obviously the NSA can end this womans career and her personal life in an eye blink. This black mail and bribery policy of Washington hold good across the EU. The UK leaders are such evil abusers of underage boys that every one of them is held by the NSA in a death grip of blackmail.

The Washington Neoconservative Israelis rulers of America have the tools of the NSA to blackmail, or the CIA to kill any European leader who seeks to represent their nation rather than the USA. It is America's goal to destroy Russia as quickly as possible before confronting China. But it may already be too late, US policy has driven Russia and China into an ever deeper alliance, that now extends to Russian sale of S-400 anti aircraft systems, the best long and medium range mobile defense in the world. China would never have been sold these weapons a year ago, NEVER. But Moscow knows now that it must reward China to gain her support. Imagine China's military getting to leap a full 20 years into the future with these missiles, making China's military a nearly impossible target for a long bombing campaign by the USA.

Washington wants to start fighting in Europe to break apart Russia from Europe for the next century. If a few million people must die, then they will be in Europe not America.

As for the screeching fools in Poland, these are some of earth's most stupid fools, as history has already proven. Germany may remind Poland that Poland occupies all of East Prussia and other German lands. Perhaps Germany might like the eastern half of Germany back. Russia gave Poland all of it at wars end, yet Poles piss and cry, even as they are fully independent and are expanded into a greater Poland that they never could have created without Russia's gifts of half of Germany.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:34 | 5594872 Doom and Dust
Doom and Dust's picture

Informative, perceptive, incisive post. Thanks.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:51 | 5595468 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Thank you for your kind remarks, Jack Burton.  One has to ask why Merkel is acting against Germany's better interests, especially in light of NSA scandals, and given that the Ukrainian project is going rapidly south.  Had Germany 'captured'  Crimea with her strategic ports and energy reserves, it might have been worth it, but now it is a lost cause. The Ukraine is a destroyed country, a poor market for Germany's products.  I just don't get how Germany  benefits from further conflict with Russia since there is no scenario where Germany ends up controlling Russia's resources.

Clearly Merkel is compromised, and eventually she will be tossed by the German Industrialists, who will not sacrifice the huge Russian market to save her political rear.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 07:55 | 5595763 Wolferl
Wolferl's picture

I don´t think your´re German, because you don´t see things with a German perspective. Being a vasal state of the Anglo-American empire has been a good strategy for the western German state and it´s people so far for 70 years, so don´t expect that this will be changed anytime soon. Many Germans don´t like this, but it´s clearly better than being under attack of everyone around us. Germany will just keep calm and waits till the others are destroying themselfs out of their own stupidity and will take advantage out of this. You don´t fight an empire openly, passiv resistance is the way to prevail. If you have this in mind Merkel serves the German interests pretty well.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:16 | 5595780 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Germany has only been united for 24 years and Berlin has only been the seat of government for 14 years and things are going wrong again.

Germany lacks a political culture or even a cultural identity and is simply subservient to the US agenda and compliant with France. It has sacrificed its chemical industry to France and its defence sector, it is not a real nation and is faced with an ageing demographic ever visible in poorly maintained housing and labour unrest and an obsession with welfarism for the non-working and ever-younger retirees. Britain raises the retirement age, Germany lowers it.

Russia had counted on German business but German politics is run by incompetents and half wits paid for Deutsche Bank and Allianz and Susanne Klatten. Germany has a history of making bad choices, and it looks more and more than Schroeder made some better foreign policy choices than has Merkel who oozes complacent stagnation

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 11:06 | 5596004 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Wolferl  you are right, I am not german and do not read german media since it is an echo chamber for the USSA

Your perspective is interesting, and I will entertain it as a possible theory to explain Merkel's actions.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 22:05 | 5597667 piratepiet
piratepiet's picture

2nd part is sarcastic, 3rd part is not ?  If so, you are very confusing.  If not, I am afraid you do not really know what you are writing about.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:47 | 5595818 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I'm sure the German taxpayers will thank her for putting them in the poorhouse to pay off Euro-debt.

If Mutti said "Nien" to Obama's sactions, what would he do?

Steal Germany' gold?

Oops, too late.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:48 | 5594911 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

I think she is Adolf's daughter and they are blackmailing her.

Nope, I just checked. She is the same age I am.

But it was a good theory.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 23:02 | 5597803 piratepiet
piratepiet's picture

did not really bother to read it completely, but here it is :

http://www.helpfreetheearth.com/news501_Merkel.html

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:18 | 5595416 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

.

Obviously the NSA can end this womans career and her personal life in an eye blink.

Zwei Frauleins, ein Stein.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:48 | 5595955 PolishErick
PolishErick's picture

whew, where to begin mr Jack Burton! haha...

 

yeah you got the part about Merkel being a US puppet right I will give you that... But about those generous gifts Russia bestowed upon the shtuipid polloks... damn son You should be beaten to death with a history book for that...

 

You fail to mention cities like Lviv, Vilno, and a THIRD of Polish land that was taken by The USSR. Maybe we should also thank them for the thousands of polish officers murderized in Katyn? Or for the hundreds of thousands sent off to Siberia and Kazachstan to die in forced labour camps? And finally Germany may also remind itself about the millions Polish Jews and Poles it killed (roughly one in five people living in the country) during the war (destroying a multicultural progressive society, which Poland was before the war) and shut the fuck up about prussia (which was btw. given to the Teutonic knights by the polish crown in the 13th - I think - century)... And if You want to talk about screeching idiots- all that shit germans did in ww2? They did under the leadership of a psychotic failed painter from austria :P WHO THE FUCK WOULD LISTEN TO A SPAZ LIKE THAT!? Hah, ze germans :P

 

Now the facts... Poles are dummbed down, the destruction of the whole educated class by the Nazis and then by the Soviet puppet regieme, the plutocracy installed and still entrenched after the round table in 89, all of that did its job. Poland is a lapdog of germany and the EU (and as You pointed out correctly- the strings of power run all the way to our lovely Neocons in DC)... The Russofobia and war/fear mongering propaganda is insane right now- and with a history like the polloks have- Are you surprized they are pissing themselves, crying Wolf, and ruinning for the guns? Now where does the propaganda come from? The media- who owns Polish media? here is a little map:

 

http://www.wykop.pl/ramka/2015682/w-to-klamstwo-wierza-polacy/

 

... the CEO of the biggest media group (tvn) is named Markus Tellenbach (doesn't sound verry polish does it?)... all media in poland (the biggest newspapers, the private TV networks, biggest radiostations, all of it) are owned by german companies... So if You want to look for the source of the warmongering, dont look for it between the Oder and Wisla rivers ... look for it on the banks of the Rhine and Spree...

 

Now if there is a conflict- if it turns global than thats all folks, nowhere to run when the button is pushed... If there is a localized conflict in Europe it will happen in the general region of Poland- it will be done by proxy (maybe Poland vs Belarus- which has a better military than Poland)... the western design will be to bankrupt Russia with it, the scapegoat will be the dummbed down Polish populace- and yeah I wouldnt be surprized if Gerry Anschlusses Breslau, Poznan, Stetin and a bunch of other places after the dust settles- would be verry much like them.

 

So stop blaming the poles and lying about history (I dont know if Youre lying or just a dumbass, so Ill give you the benefit of the doubt)- dont blame the tail for wagging the dog. Poles are dumb because they have been systematically dumbed down for the last 60 years, they will be the victims in this themselves (not saying theyre not guilty of swollowing the propaganda, but still no one should die over lies). And just like in 39- no one from the west will be dying for Warsaw (promisess promisess)... As for the Russofobia, it is unfortunate, but it has historical background and a reason, and it is fanned by German owned media on every step... The Russians also never want to see a strong Poland (1612 anyone?)... I just hope that will turn around- we are all slavs, we should live in peace...

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 20:12 | 5597397 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

You are right, of course, about the eastern border of Poland being moved a good distance to the west as a result of the war. You neglect to mention, though, that Stalin also moved the WESTERN border of Poland to the west as well into Germany. Poland remained about the same size as before the war. Germany was the real loser in area.

I realize the Poles didn't get to vote on their move west. Neither did the Germans.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 20:52 | 5597481 PolishErick
PolishErick's picture

here is the thing- the polak basers here dont mention that whaever happened after 1945 was without consent of the nations that took part in the conflict at its start... there were two countries that REALY lost the war- east Germans and Poles... they suffered beyond 1945 (ofcourse all nations suffered under the soviet regime- ESPECIALY the Russians, but im talking only about the sides of conflict in 39 and what it changed for them)

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:07 | 5595533 Ondoron
Ondoron's picture

The NSA/CIA know Merkel was a STASI-c***....

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:26 | 5595787 Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

Only Merkel?

Why do you think only retired or old persons dared to underwrite this very moderate letter?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:00 | 5594377 flapdoodle
flapdoodle's picture

Before I took the red pill and back when I was pretty ignorant, I always thought the French were a bunch of fools, and I had a romantic notion of Poland.

Years later, after meeting actual French folks and Polish folks, my opinion of the French has gone way, way up - they actually tend to be fairly level headed and practical. (The French after all saw through the US-Iraq stupidity, as did DeGaulle see through the Anglo-Zionist banker schemes), and fairly recently after having to do business with real Poles, I find them to be nasty, stubborn, and even stupid, while supposedly well educated.

I calibrate my opinion of what the Ukies are like as measured against the Polish benchmark, assuming the Ukies are even nastier, more stupid, and more stubborn and it seems to hold up.

I fear the stupidity of the Poles may ultimately be what makes the deciding mistake that will trigger the nuclear exchanges between Russia & China and the Anglo-Zionist Empire.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:50 | 5594616 BruntFCA
BruntFCA's picture

Poland was partly responsible for World War 2. Basically they had annexed a chunk of Germany and the city of Danzig; there were many overtures to create some sort of access corridor. Even Churchill called the Versailles treaty "monsterous". Once Pland received a laughable "guarantee" from the British Empire they refused any peace overtures while concurrently attacking Czech republic and killing ethnic Germans in Poland. A UK foreign minister stated that we had given the power to start a World War to Polish colonels. Take a look at this interesting documentary.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mA0kk29DBA

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 11:16 | 5596037 PolishErick
PolishErick's picture

whats that? cant hear You with all those neo-nazi dicks in your mouth... haha from the video's description:

"(...)It's the first documentary ever to unabashedly explain from the German perspective, how World War II really began, and the many efforts that were made by Hitler to avoid it, and to establish a lasting, viable and mutually acceptable peace, but how he was ultimately left with no choice but to invade Poland.(...)"

 

No choice but to invade Poland! Poor 3rd reich... then those shitty poles made them kill all the jews... dude really- READ MEIN KAMPF (if you want that peace-loving-austrian-psycho's perspective) YOU FUCKING DUMBASS AND STOP LYING ABOUT HISTORY! :D go on, have your mum read you the part about lebensraum...

 

shit... I blame the public schools for producing such idiots.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:56 | 5594752 fascismlover
fascismlover's picture

Well the French appear to dislike most Americans so I would agree on that too....ZHr's excluded of course!  You are spot on with the 9/11 war too...they knew right away and the MSM was promoting freedom fries, right away.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:47 | 5595881 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Most Americans dislike most Americans (thanks POTUS).

Don't call me French or Shirley.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 15:17 | 5596775 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

You are a victim of neo-cons propaganda

See Pew Poll July 2013

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/07/18/chapter-1-attitudes-toward-the-united-states/

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 07:56 | 5595764 Aussie V
Aussie V's picture

All those dumb Polak jokes were tolad all around the world in many languages.

Surely there was a valid core reason for all those dumb polak jokes. As a matter of fact every Pole I've known, at school and 30 years of working life have been pretty thick.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:40 | 5595809 freak of nature
freak of nature's picture

Of all the Polish I've known, they've been highly intelligent. Also, Polish cryptologists were the first to crack the Enigma code from the machine devised by people working under the thoroughly defeated man you have in your profile. Try not to live up to your own nation's stereotype of dumb, drunk and racist.  It would serve you better.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:23 | 5595927 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

in reality the Enigma was a commercial coding device which the French were cracking and since France was a defence treaty ally of Poland since 1920 it was Marian Rejewski and other mathematicians in Warsaw that worked with French Intelligence on the device.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:34 | 5595439 tumblemore
tumblemore's picture

I don't blame the Poles for being Russophobic. It's in the nature of things that smaller countries are phobic about their neighboring bigger countries due to past history. It's unfortunate in the current context but an inevitable part of human nature imo.

 

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:00 | 5595836 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Some of them are still a bit testy about Stalin grabbing their Eastern half.

Poland's historical cellar is filled with 'Under New Management' signs.

I can't imagine why they would like to see Russia turned into a docile NATO pet.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 07:38 | 5595744 goldhedge
goldhedge's picture

Then maybe the shit load of Poles in the UK will return to save their motherland from the "evil" Putin.

Heres hoping.

 

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 12:42 | 5596315 PolishErick
PolishErick's picture

http://grayee.blogspot.nl/2014/06/bloody-poles-coming-over-here.html

 

... id just kick them out- makes no sense to keep em around really- poles are only good for fences my granddad used to say!

 

shouldn't have sold a whole country to Stalin- if they hadn't been poor like they are they wouldnt come over to your preciouss UK... oh and vote in someone who cares about your country's interests (not only the intrests of the City's moneychangers) and maybe they will make an immigration policy that makes half a sense...  "Here's hopin" - but I have a hunch that ppl in the UK are at least half as dumb as the polloks from all those fine jokes- so I wouldn't hold my breath...

 

Wow- ZH is now a pollak hate machine- nice, I see that the "divide and conquer" doctrine is still alive and well with TPTB. blame the dirty pollaks- all they do is steal the minimum wage jobs anyways.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:22 | 5594284 crazybob369
crazybob369's picture

Germany is well aware that they are the "swing" vote in how this all turns out. But they are truly caught between a rock and a hard place. Turn to Russia, and not only can they kiss their 400 tons of gold goodbye (probably a forgone conclusion anyway), but they risk economic Armageddon brought on by US sanctions and whatnot; turn to the US and risk freezing their collective butts off. Tough call.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:38 | 5594324 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

I disagree once the USA has to exact overt price from Germany if they go the other way  - their entire alliance falls apart - France will roll out as well and probably Italy - the rest dont matter especially the UK.

AS with everything Obama does it is a bad plan with n backup

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:40 | 5594709 delacroix
delacroix's picture

 more like 1500 tons

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:46 | 5594721 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

More like 1500 'tungs'

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:43 | 5594901 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

What good is the gold if Germany becomes a smoking hole in the ground??

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:22 | 5594287 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Germany can still stop this?! LOL

Paul Craig Roberts: Merkel Whores For Washington
http://www.infowars.com/merkel-whores-for-washington/

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:22 | 5594670 robobbob
robobbob's picture

not just an american empire. many others are part of that project.

those pipelines they want through syria and ukraine don't connect to NY.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:28 | 5594687 supermaxedout
supermaxedout's picture

the will but not the power. Germany is under tight US control till 2099. 

http://rt.com/usa/germany-us-pact-komossa-978/

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:12 | 5595534 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Germany can still stop this. Does it have the political will to destroy Americas empire?

 

 

Russia allied with Germany before...back in World War II...against France and England...

 

What happened?

 

Yeah...I know..It's different this time. Yeah..Right...

 

When the bullets start to fly it is no longer about political will as it is more about military might.

 

You may want to choose to support the victor, beforehand, as supporting the vanquished may lead to undesirable consequences in the aftermath.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:11 | 5595536 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

For 100's of years, Germans looked to the East, not to the West.The instinct is East.

 

 

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 13:33 | 5596489 Fed-up with bei...
Fed-up with being Sick and Tired's picture

I actually think that your statement is correct.   I also think that there is NO way to stop this.  And my little piss-ant concern is should we cancel our trip to the EU this coming year (late in the fall)....I think it is INDEED that close in time....wow.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:03 | 5594234 Monty Burns
Monty Burns's picture

In the lead-up to WW 2 a leading British diplomat said that every time it looked like the negotiators had found a peaceful solution 'powerful and invisible hands' seemed to manouvre things back towards war.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:29 | 5594986 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

The invisible hand built a fancy house to mock God. Again. From there they issue proclamations for the goyim:

http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-eu-parliament/

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:51 | 5595969 perchprism
perchprism's picture

I like the cut of your jib.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:44 | 5594335 Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

We have always been at war with Eurasia.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 06:49 | 5595709 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

And war is peace, lest we forget ...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:44 | 5594189 TungstenBars
TungstenBars's picture

Sure Europe doesn't want war. 

But the US wants war for Europe. They will have it, or else the US will try to destory Europe herself as revenge.

Empire of Chaos. 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:22 | 5594285 BruntFCA
BruntFCA's picture

Basicaly this.

 

A lot of Europeans are getting pretty sick of the US/Anglo American/Zionist Establishment. Exporting its bullshit empire of Multiculturalism, Feminism and the US Dollar. US/Israel pushing wars in Middle East, and dumping the refugees in Europe. If push comes to shove, Europe could make it clear that Tel Aviv is not safe if a war breaks out in Europe...then see how keen they are for war.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:27 | 5594661 MrButtoMcFarty
MrButtoMcFarty's picture

This would require LARGE HAIRY TESTICLES.

Something that the EU has NEVER HAD and NEVER WILL HAVE.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:13 | 5594811 LibertarianMenace
LibertarianMenace's picture

Quite right. The Europeans could disband NATO. But they're in on the FRN gravy train, just like everybody else on the globe. While I appreciate the sincerity of these good Germans, the unfortunate fact is that they don't count.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:21 | 5594833 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Every morning I wake up watch the news and I CANT FUCKING BELIEVE THAT RUSSIA AND CHNA HAVE NOT BOMBED ISRAEL YET!..
What the hell are they waiting for?..

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:05 | 5595901 new game
new game's picture

bomb the command center! hmmm, that would get the bees nest buzzing. queen bee obomb ba would yell nine and the rest on the world would hear nein...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:59 | 5594633 FIAT CON
FIAT CON's picture

Maybe the next war should be on Amerkan soil. Now let's see how anxious the Amerkan .gov wants to continue!

 The Amerkans have been spoiled, with no wars on their soil in many, many years, that is why they are always so eager to go to war, in never happens in their back yard.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:08 | 5594788 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Wars are all about logistics.   Logistics are the reason there will be no major war in North America (at least at the beginning of a major war).  The war may come to North America, but it will not start there. Unless, of course, tptb want it to start there and create and supply "sides" with in North America.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:42 | 5594897 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The Celestials and Ivan could load lots of troops onboard fake container vessels which appear to have containers on them, but are loaded for war. Then they sail to the Chinese-managed ports, in the US and Mexico. They shut down the Panama Canal and invade east over CA and North from Mexico, split the US in half.

Meanwhile, we will have to run everyone out of Vichy DC then sue for peace or continue to fight the Russkies and the Chicoms.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:47 | 5594155 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

Wasnt that song sung by Tzipi Livni, she does look a lot like Steffi Graf

http://www.zimbio.com/dating/Steffi+Graf

https://www.google.com/search?q=livni+tzipi&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs...

LOL Wimbledon 99 was Steffi's last I think, there is our connection hahaha

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/wimbledon-99-the-steffi-graf-intervie...

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:00 | 5594942 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

by the German band Nena from their 1983 self-titled album.

- Gabriele Susanne Kerner (Nena) – lead vocals
- Jörn-Uwe Fahrenkrog-Petersen – keyboards, synthesizers, keytar, backing and lead vocals
- Carlo Karges – guitar, backing vocals
- Jürgen Dehmel – bass
- Rolf Brendel – drums, percussion

Tziporah "Tzipi" Livni (Hebrew: ?????? ???? "????" ?????, pronounced [tsipo??a ?tsipi ?livni]; born 8 July 1958) is an Israeli politician. Livni served as Minister of Justice of Israel between March 2013 and December 2014. She previously served as a minister in the Israeli cabinet from 2001 to 2009, most notably serving as Minister of Foreign Affairs from 2006 to 2009. Following her failure to form a government after the 2009 Israeli elections, she served as Israeli Opposition Leader from 2009 to 2012[1][2][3] and leader of Kadima.

Raised an ardent nationalist, Livni has become one of her nation's leading voices for the two-state solution.[4] In Israel she has earned a reputation as an honest politician who sticks to her principles.[5][6][7][8][9] In 2011 Livni was named one of "150 Women Who Shake the World" by Newsweek and The Daily Beast.[10]

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:30 | 5594133 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

silly people...
dont they understand that sociopaths never entertain reasonable,rational ideas even when it ensures their own survival...

DEATH TO THE MONEYCHANGERS.

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