This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

60 Prominent Germans Appeal Against Another War In Europe: "It Is Not About Putin. What Is At Stake Is Europe"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Two weeks ago, as the S&P was preparing to surge on the latest round of all time high market-goosing algo trickery by the FOMC, 60 prominent German personalities from the realms of politics, economics, culture and the media were less concerned with blinking red and green stock quotes and were focused on something far more serious to the future of the world: the threat of war with Russia.

In a letter published by Germany's Die Zeit, numerous famous and respected Germans including a former president and former prime minister write "Wieder Krieg in Europa? Nicht in unserem Namen!", or, roughly translated, "War in Europe Again? Not in Our Names!"

The open letter to the German government, parliament, and media, excerpted here, was signed by more than 60 prominent German personalities and published in the weekly Die Zeit on Dec. 5. The initiators were Horst Teltschik (CDU), advisor to then-Chancellor Helmut Kohl at the time German of reunification; Walther Stützle (SPD), former Secretary of State for the Ministry of Defense; and Antje Vollmer (Greens), former Bundestag Vice President. Teltschik said, in motivating the appeal, “We are giving a political signal that the justified criticism of Russia’s Ukraine policy should not wipe out all the progress that we have made in the past 25 years in relations with Russia.”

Below is an excerpted translation (source) of the original letter found here.

Nobody wants war. But North America, the European Union, and Russia are inevitably driving towards war if they do not finally halt the disastrous spiral of threats and counter-threats. All Europeans, including Russia, are jointly responsible for peace and security. Only those who do not lose sight of this goal can avoid fatal actions.

The Ukraine conflict shows that the quest for power and domination has not been overcome. In 1990, at the end of the Cold War, we all hoped that it would be. But the success of the détente policy and the peaceful revolutions allowed people to become lethargic and careless. In both East and West. The Americans, Europeans, and Russians all lost, as their guiding principle, the idea of permanently banishing war from their relationship. Otherwise it is impossible to explain either the West’s eastward expansion without simultaneously deepening cooperation with Moscow—a policy which Russia sees as a threat—or Putin’s annexation of Crimea in violation of international law.

At this moment of great danger for the continent, Germany has a special responsibility for the maintenance of peace. Without the will for reconciliation of the people of Russia, without the foresight of Mikhail Gorbachov, without the support of our Western allies, and without the prudent action by the then-Federal government, the division of Europe would not have been overcome. To allow German unification to evolve peacefully was a great gesture, shaped by the wisdom of the victorious powers. It was a decision of historic proportions.

Once the division of Europe was overcome, permanent peace and security, from Vancouver to Vladivostok, should have developed, as had been agreed by all the 35 heads of state and government of the OSCE member states in November 1990, in the “Charter of Paris for a New Europe.”. . . This goal of postwar policy has not been achieved to this day. People in Europe are forced to live in fear once again.

We, the undersigned, appeal to the Federal Government of Germany to assume its responsibility for peace in Europe. We need a new policy of détente in Europe. This is only possible on the basis of equal security for all and mutually respected partners. The German government is not pursuing a go-it-alone policy, as long as it  continues to call, during this stalemate, for calm and dialogue with Russia. The need of the Russians for security is as legitimate as is that of the Germans, the Poles, the Baltic States, and the Ukrainians.

We must also not push Russia out of Europe....  Since the Congress of Vienna in 1814, Russia has been a recognized global player in Europe. All who have tried to change that have failed violently, the last being the megalomaniacal Germany of Hitler, which set out in 1941 to murderously subjugate Russia.

We call upon the members of the German Bundestag, delegated by the people as their political representatives, to deal appropriately with the seriousness of the situation. . . . Whoever is constructing a bogeyman, putting the blame on only one side, is exacerbating tensions, when the signals should be for de-escalation.

We appeal to the media, to more scrupulously adhere to their obligation to provide unbiased reporting than they have hitherto done. Editorialists and leading commentators are demonizing entire nations, without fully taking their histories into account. Any journalist experienced in foreign affairs would understand the Russians’ fear, since members of NATO in 2008 invited Georgia and Ukraine to join the Alliance. It is not about Putin. Heads of state come and go. What is at stake is Europe.

On October 3, 1990, the Day of German Reunification, Federal President Richard von Weizäcker said: “The Cold War has been overcome, and freedom and democracy will soon be in place in all countries. . . . This is a challenge. We can achieve it, but we can also fail. We are facing the clear alternative to unite Europe or fall back again into painful historical examples of nationalist conflicts in Europe.”

Until the Ukraine conflict, we here in Europe thought we were on the right track. Today, a quarter of a century later, Richard von Weizäcker’s warning is more apropos than ever.

* * *

The full list of signatories:

Mario Adorf, actor
Robert Antretter (Bundestag ret.)
Prof. Dr. Wilfried Bergmann (Vice – President of the Alma Mater Europaea)
Prince Luitpold of Bavaria (Royal Holding and license KG)
Achim von Borries (director and writer)
Klaus Maria Brandauer (Actor, Director)
Dr. Eckhard Cordes (Chairman of the Committee on Eastern European Economic Relations)
Prof. Dr. Herta Däubler-Gmelin (Minister of Justice Retired)
Eberhard Diepgen (Former Governing Mayor of Berlin)
Dr. Klaus von Dohnanyi (Mayor of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg)
Alexander van Dülmen (A-Board Company Filmed Entertainment AG)
Stefan Dürr (Managing Partner and CEO Ekosem-Agrar GmbH)
Dr. Erhard Eppler (Federal Minister for Development and Cooperation retired)
Prof. Dr. Heino Falcke (Propst iR)
Prof. Hans-Joachim Frey (CEO Semper Opera Ball Dresden)
Father Anselm Grün (Fr.)
Sibylle Havemann (Berlin)
Dr. Roman Herzog (Former President)
Christoph Hein (writer)
Dr. Dr. hc Burkhard Hirsch (Bundestag Vice President retd)
Volker horns (Academy Director Retired)
Joseph Jacobi (organic farmer)
Dr. Sigmund Jähn (former astronaut)
Uli Jörges (journalist)
Prof. Dr. Dr. hc Margot Käßmann (EKD Council President and former bishop)
Dr. Andrea von Knoop (Moscow)
Prof. Dr. Gabriele Krone-Schmalz (former correspondent for the ARD in Moscow)
Friedrich Küppersbusch (journalist)
Vera Gräfin von Lehndorff (artist)
Irina Liebmann (writer)
Dr. hc Lothar de Maizière (Former Prime Minister)
Stephen Märki (artistic director of the theater Bern)
Prof. Dr. Klaus Mangold (Chairman Mangold Consulting GmbH)
Reinhard Mey and Hella (Songwriter)
Ruth Misselwitz (Protestant pastor Pankow)
Klaus Prömpers (journalist)
Prof. Dr. Konrad Raiser (eh. General Secretary of the World Council of Churches World)
Jim rocket (Photographer)
Gerhard Rein (journalist)
Michael Röskau (Secretary ret)
Eugen Ruge (writer)
Dr. hc Otto Schily (Federal Minister of the Interior Retired)
Dr. hc Friedrich Schorlemmer (ev. theologian, civil rights)
Georg Schramm (comedian)
Gerhard Schröder (former chancellor)
Philipp von Schulthess (Actor)
Ingo Schulze (writer)
Hanna Schygulla (actress, singer)
Dr. Dieter Spöri (Minister of Economics)
Prof. Dr. Fulbert Steffensky (Cath. Theologian)
Dr. Wolf-D. Stelzner (Managing Partner: Institute for WDS analyzes in cultures mbH)
Dr. Manfred Stolpe (Former Prime Minister)
Dr. Ernst-Jörg von Studnitz (Ambassador)
Prof. Dr. Walther Stützle (secretary of defense Retired)
Prof. Dr. Christian R. Supthut (Board Member Retired)
Prof. Horst Teltschik (former adviser at the Federal Office for Security and Foreign Policy)
Andres Veiel (Director)
Dr. Hans-Jochen Vogel (Federal Minister of Justice retd)
Dr Antje Vollmer (Vice-President of the German Bundestag Retired)
Bärbel Wartenberg-Potter (Lübeck Bishop retired)
Dr. Ernst Ulrich von Weizsäcker (scientists)
Wim Wenders (Director)
Wenzel (Songwriter)
Gerhard Wolf (writer, publisher)

 

- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:22 | 5594837 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

AMEN

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:40 | 5595163 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Yet another thing you will not read much about, but the Rothslandians HATE the Orthodox Church, as people who adhere to the Faith do not want to fall under Zionist Slavery!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:33 | 5594139 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

"Nobody wants war."

BULLSHIT.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:36 | 5594160 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

War Is a racket - US Marine General Smedley Butler

 

 

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:37 | 5594165 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

With a foreign government that's been occupying your ass for 69 years using you as "nuclear fodder" that just happens to be the only one that has used them twice before on another Country that is also still occupied by that same government?

NOT BULLSHIT!

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:32 | 5595555 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

"Nobody wants war."

 

 

 

 

Well I guess I am nobody. I surely do not want war.

 

But it is not about what I want, or, do not want. I have no control over any of these piss poor developments.

 

That is what really sucks. If I could only be World Dictator I would promise evryone peace. /sarc

 

Seriously, as a Libertarian, does non interference apply to belligerants looking to annhilate one another? (As long as you are not the victim then the self defense clause does not apply, right?) That is why Libertarianism, while being a great ideal, is not practical or applicable.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:34 | 5594141 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

It is not about Europe.  It It is about DEBT

 

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:23 | 5594839 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Money is created as CREDIT, but the chosenites would have you believe it's created as debt

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:33 | 5594144 PontifexMaximus
PontifexMaximus's picture

Be very, very, very careful, when the so called "Deutsche Intelligenz" is looking for a public place to declare their intentions/opinions. Be very careful: it is the famous "Wolf im Schafspelz"! Never ever believe them, never!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:25 | 5594843 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

But, but, but the chosenites NEVER lie...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:34 | 5594150 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOa9-fiUdl4

It's gonna be a nuclear winter for the next 2000 years....

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:25 | 5595053 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Decades ago (before the Thatcher era destruction of the UK NHS), the MOD and NHS examined the consequences of a "small" nuclear exchange, using as an example the then-current Polaris type of warhead (150kt I believe).

The very early conclusion was that ONE (1) warhead detonated over a "moderately populated" area would produce a casualty count that would exceed the entire peacetime capacity of the NHS.  They also examined capacities / capabilities of other Countries (e.g. USA) and found the same outcome - just ONE 150kt warhead, over a "smaller city" and the peacetime healthcare system is swamped.

This does not include the secondary effects (lack of critical resupply, lack of critical services, lack of staff (owing to the staff being dead).

Just ONE Warhead, folks.  Think about it . . . . .

I believe they also calculated that TWELVE (12) such warheads, detonated over medium-sized cities (not big, just medium), would have produced a casualty-count capable of swamping the GLOBAL peacetime healthcare bed capacity available at that time. Seeing as the Polaris A2 was designed to take 3 x 150kt + 1 decoy, and the old Trafalgar class UK boats carried 12 of these, then assuming a 100% delivery rate (which could well have been the case in the good old days (!)), 1/3 of the boat's payload = bye, bye Global healthcare. Or, to put it another way - ONE Trafalgar-class boat had the capability of producing 3 x as many casualties as there was the Global capacity to manage.

Now, how many nuclear warheads are available worldwide right now? - over 17,000. 

http://armscontrolcenter.org/issues/nuclearweapons/articles/fact_sheet_global_nuclear_weapons_inventories_in_2014/

Mutually-assured destruction, or mutual madness??

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:45 | 5595565 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

This is the very reason that there are no ETs.

 

When a Civilization of Predators reaches the point of being able to destroy themselves, and since predators always rise to the top of the food chain to allow for such technological development, and predators will always seek out prey to sustain themselves, then destruction is all but assured.

 

Civilization is just a veneer for the weak whom are farmed to be harvested by the psychopathic predatory elite.

 

We are not going to transcend this. We are cooked..

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:42 | 5594151 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

T-H-A-N-K G-O-D!

Cause...

It's about fucking time!!! 

Wrap a Christmas bow around this one and call it a gift!

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:56 | 5594221 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

P.S.

Only wish the 60 petitioners had been a hell of a lot more blunt with details furnished as to just who among the NATO state(s) was responsible for the bloody overthrow and massacres that have ensued over the last 10 months by the Ukrainian junta last February and the evidence still being withheld over the MH-17 flight that was used to frame the Russian Federation by NATO!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:54 | 5594625 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Coming from me this might sound strange... but this letter isn't the place for invective. That said, they should have been able to get a lot more than 60 signatures of people of similar stature with that language. There is a fuck ton of work to do and coalitions to build if they want even a slight chance of containing the dogs of war.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:22 | 5594673 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

signatures on paper well bake my ass Since when has this EVER done anything as for opposition??  1 asshole obozo signs his name to paper it's fearful law 100,000 sign theirs in opposition it gets "round filed"   just more placating for the "sheep"  more smoke and mirrors more bullshit more controlled opposition.  nothing to see here, you want to stop the dogs of war become an even bigger more viscious pack of dogs and attack first.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:26 | 5594845 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Can't trust their paper money OR their paper...

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:03 | 5595896 Arnold
Arnold's picture

(How's that 'stop global warming' petition going, it must have several billion signatures and several paw prints by now) snicker

Yes, quite ineffective and polly anna-ish.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 00:37 | 5595302 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

they should have been able to get a lot more than 60 signatures of people of similar stature with that language. There is a fuck ton of work to do and coalitions to build if they want even a slight chance of containing the dogs of war.

Absolutely said it right UR.  Guess I'm so desperate for a victory at this point after all the other ugly defeats that the glass "1/4 full" looks pretty god damn spectacular even after this belated "win".

To add to your point.  We got plenty of work to do...  Let's start with the bankers that made this mess and work our way down to the politicians and "uniforms" that do their bidding!

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:34 | 5595556 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

Well the thing is, they thought they were signing a petition to BAN dihydrogen monoxide (but they ran out of actors).

Sun, 12/28/2014 - 06:26 | 5598368 piratepiet
piratepiet's picture

That is much better, UR !

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:36 | 5594152 giovanni_f
giovanni_f's picture

US not like it does. Underwriters punish it must.

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:37 | 5594157 TheFourthStooge-ing
Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:37 | 5594166 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Why do they always have an actor as the first signatory.

It makes me not want to read the other names, because if they think an Actirs opinion means anything...they are idiots.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:18 | 5594272 BaghdadBob
BaghdadBob's picture

"Why do they always have an actor as the first signatory." -

The list is in Alphabetical order, determined on Surname.

Why does ZH continue to allow fucking idiots to comment?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:52 | 5594350 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

You call yourself Baghdad Bob and you expect anyone to take you seriously?  Who is the fucking idiot.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:38 | 5594572 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

Ah ZH. You'll come for the articles, but you'll stay for the comments.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:54 | 5595474 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

Just here for the movie and free coffee

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:36 | 5595557 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

We should split our attendance days up here on ZH... You can have the 'testicular cancer' days...

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:05 | 5595840 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Dibs on Brain Parasites.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:39 | 5594167 Chad_the_short_...
Chad_the_short_seller's picture

israel uses america, america uses ukraine. One world order with no white race out there. All mixed and fucking multi-white-cultured-out!!!! Good ol murica!!!!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:53 | 5594214 Monty Burns
Monty Burns's picture

Becomes more obvious every day that this is the plan.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:05 | 5595084 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Keep looking brother until you figure out who uses Israel.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:08 | 5595842 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Wish I had that kind of clearance and compartmentalization.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:39 | 5594169 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture

There will be no war. There is not enough canon fodder stupid enough to wanna fight the Russians (not even in Ukraine). It's all a nice show & dance but, when push comes to shove, there are no bodies to fill the trenches. However, 2015 will be a tough year for Merkel. She might lose her shaky coalition, and get kicked out as CDU's top power maker. Just wait for the economic pain to become a bit more tangible in Germany...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:42 | 5594183 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

They are forcing Uke boys into the army, they will throw them against their brethren.  Depopulate the country for the Eurocrauts to steal the land and the women.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:16 | 5594414 Captain Obvious.
Captain Obvious.'s picture

You've got it nailed.

Stone age man gets to play with nuclear weapons.

The US military has had all its talented officers purged in preparation. All the Colonels left are hand picked spineless wonders.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:28 | 5594856 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Spineless Chosenite wonders

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:52 | 5594484 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture

You can force some people into some army, but you cannot force that army to FIGHT in an effective manner. Last summer's war in Donbass was proof of that... if any more proof was needed.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:30 | 5594858 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Thus the need for CNN, Fox News, etc...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:49 | 5595049 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

To get those dissident eastern othodox back under the thumb of Rome.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:20 | 5594417 MrPalladium
MrPalladium's picture

"There is not enough canon fodder stupid enough to wanna fight the Russians"

The irony of it all is that the oligarchs in Manhattan, London, Chateau Lafitte Rothschild, Washington D.C. and West L.A. are the front line troops this time around if war with Russia goes nuclear. Russia knows full well who is driving this agression and where they live. Outside of some military installations, the people residing in the Red states are entirely irrelevant and relatively safe.

It amazes me that the Ukranian people can't figure out how to get rid of the dozen or so oligarchs who are looting their country. Their plight has nothing to do with Russia, hatred of which is a useful smoke screen for the thieves who are doing the looting.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:52 | 5595056 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Nowadays, everyone who is not a looter works for the looters. The looters use TV and smart phones and music to keep the sheep in the pen. A sheep who has to worry about losing their precious is an obediant sheep indeed.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:56 | 5595068 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Why should it amaze you? The American people can't get rid of the oligarchs that are looting their country either.

It's the same everywhere. In People vs. Oligarchs, Oligarchs win and become even more entrenched.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:36 | 5595158 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Yes! We have our own Oligarchs to rid ourselves of! They own Lance Link and all the other chimps in the Congress!

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:13 | 5595913 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Divulge no more about A.P.E., CHUMP.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:39 | 5595085 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Knowing just who is behind this "war", I'd not be at all surprised to see a few mutinies, probably led by pretty senior ranks, who fully understand what's going on.

If such events did happen, it would certainly be USA on its own against Russia, and very possibly USA on its own against a Russia supported (overtly or covertly) by the mutineers (who know which side their bread's buttered on thank you).

Thinking further ahead - if by some magical event the USA did "win", and Russia became yet another vassal state (followed tout suite by China), we'd certainly have a very Unipolar World Structure, and "those running the show" would be able to do exactly as they please, with no risk of any, let alone any effective, impediment.

How long before "the rest of us" would be paying taxes to the USSA  and how long before we'd be "all one happy family" under ONE NWO Flag - and that's when the "selection of the fittest" fun would really start - with the new High Command being quite keen to start "thinning the herd" of all those they claim to be "useless eaters" . . . .

So maybe, just maybe, Russia winning "this one" might be good for us all, in that we might have a few more years of "relative freedom" to enjoy.

 

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:52 | 5595469 tumblemore
tumblemore's picture

"It amazes me that the Ukranian people can't figure out how to get rid of the dozen or so oligarchs who are looting their country."

 

The most intelligent 15% were murdered in the 1930s. Takes a while to grow back.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 03:49 | 5595570 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

You must be referring to jolly old Lazar Kaganovich

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:10 | 5595843 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

I think there's a Kaganovich on the Supreme Court. And at least another Kaganovich in the Pentagon. Go figure.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:57 | 5594489 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

Bye Bye Merkel

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:39 | 5594170 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

If they want to avoid war they need to end the hegemony of the banksters in Brussels and Wall Street.

How can Europe have peace when the West installs puppet regimes and surrounds Russia with NATO?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:43 | 5594187 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

Europe want the Ukraine land.  Land is in dire shortage in Europe.  Ukraine is that last great landgrab in that region.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:30 | 5594860 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Ukraine land of chosenites

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:54 | 5594357 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

I guess if the Russians wanted a better deal they could have participated in the Marshall Plan, instead of being a bunch of insufferable communist douchebags... which, unfortunately, is what they were... you can lay much of this at the feet of Molotov and Stalin, frankly... it's their own damn fault and you're just seeing their legacy...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:04 | 5594643 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

Guess the Russians didnt like the part of the Marshall plan that came with Permanent USA bases on their LAND.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:45 | 5595031 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

that's real funny... didn't realize they considered the entire Eastern Bloc to be "their land"... all the more reason we should have pushed their faces in like we did... it's no wonder Germans ran to West Germany as fast as their feet could carry them, they knew they'd get nothing but a boot in their face from Russia, USA was there to rebuild Europe from the ashes... good call, Germany, good call... Russia / Molotov / Stalin didn't give a rat's ass about German economic rebuilding in the best interests of Europe...

"Wir wollen kohle, Wir wollen brot"... USA delivered, Russia didn't... period, end of story

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:33 | 5595147 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

oh yeah, great job with that whole blockade of Berlin thing, too... how'd that work out lol

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:35 | 5595443 TungstenBars
TungstenBars's picture

What year are you living in?

 

USSR might have been immoral at times and the US more moral. Brainwashed fools in the US and its vassals seem to think its still 1955 or 1965.

 

It's almost 2015. 

USA is on a murder campaign of 1M+ these last 14 years. 

ZH is about modern Russia and especially modern USA (fascist warmonering corrupt cunts)

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 17:56 | 5595503 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

"First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century."

Vlad 2005

He still thinks that way.

 

 First I´ve heard of that letter, although I admit I´m not a reader of Die Zeit.  It made no waves in the MSM at all, and I didn´t hear anyone talking about it either. So, since this looks like it´s in need of a publicity re-launch (and since it looks like the Petersburger Dialog, a pro-Russian/German interest group (of which five members signed), didn´t get much bang for the hefty amount of roubles....converted into euros of course... it laid out for the ad), we are now seeing it here, three weeks later, just as Vlad starts getting pissed off again.   

Respect ZH...or at least to the german speaking Tyler...who was able to find this article at Die Zeit, read the online article, log in, respond to it (in proper German of course), and be the #1 commentator...ALL WITHIN SIX MINUTES OF PUBLICATION way back on December 5th.   I thought only newshounds like Hilsenrath are capable of such deeds.  Impressive.  Most impressive.

1. Respekt

Diese Menschen verdienen meinen größten Respekt.

Check it: http://www.zeit.de/politik/2014-12/aufruf-russland-dialog?commentstart=1...

Tit for tat perhaps?

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 11:26 | 5596080 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

it's neocons vs. neocoms... I know exactly what year it is and so does the fifth column of sewage rats that lives here on RTHedge, rooting for RTyler posts and ol' Pooty Poot (the patron saint of NeoComs) the whole way... they can at least bring in a set of rats that remembers basic Cold War history, any dumbass who thinks the Marshall Plan called for US bases in the fucking USSR is off their meds... Marshall knew they couldn't get USSR buy-in on the plan as it was, let alone with something like that in the mix... get real...

Stalin & Molotov did a GREAT job of making sure Western Europe ran as fast as they could to the US side, if ol' Pooty Poot wants a repeat performance of that he can just keep on doing what he's doing... hell, we're back to Russians working with Red China, hell it IS like the '50s and '60s all over again...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:41 | 5594173 Counterpunch
Counterpunch's picture

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"  - Voltaire

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:00 | 5595073 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Voltaire ought to know - he was a leading figure in destruction of freedom in his time.

Here are the present day Voltairians putting forward a public face to save Syria:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article180830.html

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:41 | 5594178 breadonwaters
breadonwaters's picture

Where oh where are 60 responsible leaders of the west to add their names to the clarion call for peace? 

 

What's that?  The DOW is over 1800?  Oh, ok then.

 

It a big club and we don't belong.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:49 | 5594186 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Unfortunately nothing will come of this appeal though it is a move towards peace and a more equitable world.  Germany is an occupied country with US and UK troops on her soil, German media is completely controlled by America and infinite spying by the NSA has compromised German politicians.  The corruption and control and propaganda run too deep to be reversed by just an appeal

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:50 | 5594208 Monty Burns
Monty Burns's picture

"infinite spying by the NSA has compromised German politicians"

There is no possible alternative explanation for the behaviour of most German politicians. Definitely they have the goods on Merkel from her time in the GDR.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:01 | 5594502 TungstenBars
TungstenBars's picture

"infinite spying by the NSA has compromised German politicians"

 

Sounds like an act of war. German politicians should act accordingly and be honest with the public about it. Everyone is sick of Americunts on German land.

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:34 | 5594868 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Remember, the US is not alone in spying. Russia, China and Israel all have massive Intel forces. These other entities also know a lot of inside info.

Even the Cubans have spies in the US, although if we normalize relations, some of that should drop off.

 

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 13:34 | 5596455 LibertarianMenace
LibertarianMenace's picture

I mean this sincerely, then throw us out, PLEASE!!!

 

Edit: this post was a reply to Tungsten. There was once a time when BB software used graph theory as a template, but those programmers must have turned to dust ages ago.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 19:53 | 5597364 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

America and her Zioligarchs own the German media and politicians. They aren't able to throw them out even though most of the German people would like that to happen.

The Hawaiians would like to throw out the Americans too.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:31 | 5594303 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I like to call a spade a spade. Germany - is a colony of the United States.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:19 | 5595857 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

..which is owned by the Federal Reserve. Which is owned by ?.

When they say New World Order, it means they're only using the familiar flags and offices of the nation-state to further their own ends. We must understand that the Powers which direct the rump Nations are truly International. Or to wit,

"Give me control of a Nation's Money and I care not who makes its laws."

-YKW

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 06:36 | 5595698 escapeefromOZ
escapeefromOZ's picture

  The same applies in other Eu occupied countries . In Italy there are about 100 US bases , the press is controlled by the secret services and the politicians are on the take . 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:48 | 5594199 Hannibal
Hannibal's picture

"Nobody wants another war"... Bullshit

When the EU/Nato neoCons imposed ecconomic sanctions against Russia, a facsist Nazi coup in Kiev and a buildup of Nato military forces on its borders. That IS war my friend!

Fucking morons!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:11 | 5594255 crazybob369
crazybob369's picture

They forgot the rest of the quote. Let me fix it for them:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:48 | 5594202 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Don't fret Europeans, Greater Israel needs Europe as a terminus for their pipelines, and the Zionists need a new HQ for operations, and wardog, as they move on out of the depleted DC US.

The banksters need to repay us.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:31 | 5594859 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The Zionistsas are already building their new homeland in Central Asia, near where they originated.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:46 | 5594915 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Their new homeland is n Palo Alto

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 13:41 | 5596507 LibertarianMenace
LibertarianMenace's picture

From Wall St to CA: at least they're headed in the right direction. Now if we can just persuade them to step off and keep moving.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:48 | 5594204 f16hoser
f16hoser's picture

German people better wake the fuck up and Jettison Merkel and go back to the Mark. The Euro is a dying currency soon to be joined by the POS Dollar. It's game over. Don't let these banksters (Rothschilds) bait you/us into another world war. We're better and smarter than that. WAKE UP WORLD CITIZENS AND SEE WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS. IT'S CENTRAL BANKING!!!!!!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:57 | 5594223 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

Cant stand that fucking Bitch.  Would not be surprised if later on she reveals her Zionist grandfather's lineage etc just like Allbright and Johnny Kerry

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:01 | 5594500 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

all wars are bankers' wars

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:31 | 5594578 GRDguy
GRDguy's picture

And that's the reason the book "The Gold Wars" exists.  Whether one understands gold or not, there are important positions in every country occupied by sociopaths that know that gold is not a barbaric relic and the vast powers that go with its accumulation, and they are willing and able to sacrifice their country's young men and women to attain it.  The odd thing is that the 99% of each country permits the 1% to do this.  That's what The Great Red Dragon (or Serpent) is a symbol for the "Snakes In Suits" that occupy these important positions.  They have all the attributes of a python, including no conscience nor empathy for its victims.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:18 | 5594826 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

Here's the link to a well-done walk through history on this topic of 'All Wars are Bankers' Wars':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:28 | 5594854 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Smedley: (paraphrased) "I worked on many continents for the Banksters! It's a Racket!"

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:23 | 5594676 f16hoser
f16hoser's picture

I see 2 Bankers read my post today. Too funny and obvious...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:54 | 5594219 Space Animatoltipap
Space Animatoltipap's picture

Europe will become like the ME. Of course. Megalomania has got its price. 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:56 | 5594224 Infinite QE
Infinite QE's picture

Germany needs to wrest control of it's future from the zio-queer New Bolsheviks. They need to broadcast out the hoaxes perpetrated on them and the world. The true history of WW2. In union with Russia, seek trillions in reparations and restitution for the zionist crimes against both of their countries. It's time to get on with it folks, no more world wars for zio-queer banking cabals.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:34 | 5594870 Self-enslavement
Self-enslavement's picture

Chosenites never talk much about what THEY did to the good Christian German people to warrant being put INTO re-education camps...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:33 | 5595150 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

NEVER forget Slick Willie's abandonment of Christians for Muslims in the Balkan war.

ZATO broke up another Christian-Historical people.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 08:34 | 5595585 Ahoy Polloi
Ahoy Polloi's picture

It's always amazing to me (well not really), how the zio-controlled Western Media succeeded, over time, to virtually 'romanticize' Bolshevism (which was like candy to left wingers), and all the while virtually erase any reportage about the deeds of insidious Bolsheviks like Lazar Kaganovich

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 16:58 | 5594226 Mike Honcho
Mike Honcho's picture

"Nobody wants war. But North America, the European Union, and Russia are inevitably driving towards war"

How is russia driving it, they have seemed to be reactionary in this whole charade. 

 

There will be war, question is who.  What economy crumbles first/the worst should be an indicator right?....Japan?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:44 | 5594905 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

Russia is clearly extremely focused on setting up a symbiotic relationship with China. Seeking war now seems antithetical to all this investment, as it only potentially unravels these efforts and at minimum would divert and destroy crucial resources needed for cementing the relationship.

The Vineyard of the Saker has created a white paper detailing many (all?) of the fronts on which these two sovereigns are engaged. It's a worthwhile read to provide an initial perspective on just how deep and expansive the relationship is. Russia's and China's future appear to be extremely bright alongside each other. Think Silk Road 2.0, this time on steroids.

Article intro here:

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/12/vineyard-of-saker-white-paper-...

Actual whitepaper here:

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/fpid1fhd6nv59/China_Russia_Double_Helix

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:06 | 5594241 crazybob369
crazybob369's picture

"or Putin’s annexation of Crimea in violation of international law."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Crimean people vote 95% in favor of joining Russia. Do we not believe in peoples' right to self-determination? Or, is that only allowed when it is convenient? These guys are as full of horshit as anyone.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:18 | 5594273 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Don't mess with Putin   -especially when it is very clear that he is not responsible for the problems here. The Russians are the clear good guys here. If you don't agree with that, you have no understanding of the truth of what has happened, 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:26 | 5594848 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Self-Determination is in the UN Charter. The Crimeans followed the rules.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:13 | 5594251 noben
noben's picture

60 is a good start, but you'll need to keep doubling these numbers, at a faster clip than the War-Mongers in NY and DC are escalating their train to Euro-Russian oblivion.

The time is nearing, when Germans and ALL Continental Europeans will have to shout...

 

"We don't want your war machine, we don't want your ghetto scene...  Get away from me!"

"YANKEE GO HOME!  Come back as Tourists.  Neocon Globalists stay home!"

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 06:58 | 5595719 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

"We don't want your war machine" .... I know that song ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJTd9y-l6ks
The Guess Who  -  American Woman

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:11 | 5594253 Miss Expectations
Miss Expectations's picture

The overthrow/destabilization/civil war of Ukraine by the likes of Nuland is very similar to the set up to the Spanish civil war, including the theft of gold.

Aleksandr Mikhailovich Orlov:

Orlov arrived in Madrid on 15 September 1936. Orlov organized guerrilla warfare behind Nationalist lines as he had in Ukraine during the Civil War, but the work was later credited to his deputy Grigory Syroezhkin to avoid mention of the defected General.

In October 1936 Orlov was placed in command of the operation which moved the Spanish treasury from Madrid to Moscow. The Republican government had agreed to use this hoard of bullion as an advance payment for Soviet military supplies. Orlov undertook the logistics of this transfer. It took four nights for truck convoys, driven by Soviet tankmen, to bring the 510 tons of gold from its hiding place in the mountains to the port of Cartagena. There, under threat of German bombing raids, it was loaded on four different Russian steamers bound for Odessa. The gold was conveyed to Moscow by special armored train.

(Simply substitute Nuland for Orlov and US for Soviet)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Mikhailovich_Orlov

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:11 | 5594256 FallenOne
FallenOne's picture

fuck Europe how bout the world not become a radioactive waste dump for the next few decades! idiot krauts just side with Putin already!

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:44 | 5594597 trader1
trader1's picture

this is old news:

http://www.energypost.eu/ukrainian-nuclear-power-emerges-russian-shadow/

While discussions around Ukrainian energy dependence on Russia usually focus on gas, the Ukrainian nuclear sector is even more dominated by Russia. And more strategic: it supplies half of the country’s electricity. And whereas Ukraine wants to use less gas, the government intends to expand the country’s nuclear power production significantly. The good news for Ukraine is that it has plenty of its own uranium. With Western support the country could make its nuclear sector emerge from the Russian shadow, writes Zuzanna Nowak of the Polish Institute of International Affairs (PISM).

...

 

Due to the Chernobyl disaster in 1986, the safety of the Ukrainian nuclear reactors is a priority. The Ukrainian State Nuclear Regulatory Inspectorate (SNRI) sets increasingly higher safety standards, and attempts to comply with the requirements of international nuclear organisations (such as the IAEA, WENRA and ENSREG). The EU-model stress-tests have shown that safety measures implemented in the last 15 years in the Ukrainian nuclear blocks have greatly minimised the risk of core damage and emergency release of radioactive substances into the environment. In March 2013, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and Euratom, each granted a €300 million loan for the comprehensive modernisation of Ukrainian reactors by 2017. SNRI also maintains protection of the Ukrainian nuclear power plants against external threats and the risk of sabotage at a high level.

Although the Russian nuclear technology used in Ukraine necessitates the need for cooperation with Russia, Ukraine seeks to increase its control over the sector. This task is made easier by the fact that Ukraine possesses its own uranium resources, constituting approximately 2% of world reserves. Although the 225,000 tonnes of uranium (tU) located in 12 deposits would cover the total demand of Ukraine for the next 100 years, the current annual production (1,000 tU) allows Ukraine to meet only 30% of its domestic needs. According to SkhidGZK, Ukraine’s uranium mining and processing company, the goal is to achieve self-sufficiency and, in the longer term, export of uranium surpluses. But this will only be possible with increased funding for the domestic industry, the opening of the Ukrainian market for international investment, and cooperation with foreign companies.

In order to diversify the supply of fresh fuel derived so far exclusively from Russia (but prepared using Ukrainian uranium and zirconium), Energoatom started implementation of the Nuclear Fuel Qualification Project in 2007, assuming use of fuel from Westinghouse in three Ukrainian reactors. This Ukrainian–American cooperation prompted Russian company TVEL to propose in 2010 new, more favourable conditions for a long-term contract for the supply of fuel from Russia to Ukraine. Although TVEL also won the tender on a joint venture that aims to build a nuclear fuel production plant in Smolino, the new contract secures for Ukraine access to fuel manufacture technology. Such concern for Ukraine’s interests is an expression of a change in strategy towards Russia and the desire to make the nuclear industry independent.

Ukraine also seeks to reduce its dependence on Russia in the field of spent nuclear fuel management. Although Ukraine has two storage facilities for spent fuel (dry, at the Zaporozhye plant, and wet, at Chernobyl), the fuel from other power plants is exported to Russia. Therefore, Ukraine wants to invest in the long-term storage of spent fuel on its own territory. Thus Energoatom has, since 2005, been cooperating with the U.S. company Holtec International on a project to build a centralised spent fuel storage facility in the Chernobyl exclusion zone. It is expected that an integrated system of radioactive waste management will also be constructed.

Political problems and Ukraine’s growing debt may delay the modernisation of reactors and the implementation of some essential investments. Given that the security of the nuclear sector directly affects the security of neighbouring countries, the involvement of the European authorities and institutions in support of planned projects in Ukraine is of great importance. In comparison to other sectors of the Ukrainian energy industry, the nuclear industry is, due to strict supervision, less corrupt, which can help to ensure international control over how funds are spent. In addition, investment in the development of the Ukrainian fuel cycle can promote, in the long term, the diversification of nuclear fuel supplies to European VVER-type reactors (in, for example, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary).

The further development of nuclear energy in Ukraine will also have an impact on Poland. Due to the proximity of the power plant in Khmelnitsky, about 185 km from the Polish border, as well as the possible (re)construction of an interconnection between Khmelnitsky and Rzeszów connection, Poland may be able to import or transport Ukrainian electricity in future. Due to the technical conditions of the Polish energy system, Ukrainian electricity will not be competition for the planned Polish nuclear power plant, which is intended for the north of the country. At most, Ukrainian electricity could offer a serious alternative to electricity from emerging nuclear power plants in Kaliningrad and Belarus. Poland has urgent need for more power capacity. For Kyiv, the reconstruction of the Khmelnitsky–Rzeszów connection might be an incentive for a synchronisation of the Ukrainian national electricity system with that of the EU.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:24 | 5595127 Paveway IV
Paveway IV's picture

"...According to SkhidGZK, Ukraine’s uranium mining and processing company, the goal is to achieve self-sufficiency and, in the longer term, export of uranium surpluses..."

To Israel... for weapons production. That was always part of the deal.

"...In order to diversify the supply of fresh fuel derived so far exclusively from Russia (but prepared using Ukrainian uranium and zirconium), Energoatom started implementation of the Nuclear Fuel Qualification Project in 2007, assuming use of fuel from Westinghouse in three Ukrainian reactors..."

An assinine plan, tantamount to an act of nuclear terrorism, to replace the gigawatt-class VVER reactor manufacturer's standard, safe, proven Russian TVEL fuel bundles with cheap knock-off Westinghouse clones that have already failed in Ukraine's VVER reactors. Why? To save Westinghouse's failing nuclear fuel business. Westinghouse has zero experience building VVER fuel bundles and doesn't even have access to specifications TVEL uses. They just sort of winged-it. 

So SNRI should be all over this and prohibit anything but the manufacturer's specific TVEL fuel in Ukraine's reactors, right? For safety's sake? (It's for the children, after all...) And they did exactly that after the failed Westinghouse 'trial' in the Ukraine South Nuclear Power Plant - the Westinghouse fuel rods warped and twisted and displayed such rapid corrosion that the SNRI permanently banned their use anywhere in Ukraine. Ukraine would only use the Russain fuel bundles designed specifically for their Russian-built reactors. 

When, that was until the ZATO coup installled their puppet government in Kiev and immediately replaced all the nuclear regulators with 'Westinghouse-friendly' psychopaths. Embargo: OFF! Westinghouse's shitty clones are miraculously permitted in Ukraine's Russian-designed VVER reactors once again. Not only that, but Westinghouse just got a new order for a whole crapload more of their cheap-ass clone fuel bundles for Ukraine. Why worry about a meltdown? Westinghouse isn't liable for anything. Besides, Ukrainians are already radiation-hardened from Chernobyl. 

"...Political problems and Ukraine’s growing debt may delay the modernisation of reactors and the implementation of some essential investments..."

Hence the call for cheap-ass clone fuel bundles in their 30-year-old deteriorating reactors. Why waste the money on 'good' Russain fuel rods?

"...In comparison to other sectors of the Ukrainian energy industry, the nuclear industry is, due to strict supervision, less corrupt, which can help to ensure international control over how funds are spent..."

Get Russain engineers to upgrade the aging reactors so they're safe? Fuck that - just buy bargain-basement knock-off fuel-bundles, stock up on iodine tablets and censor nuclear accidents in Ukraine. Radiation is good for you.

"...In addition, investment in the development of the Ukrainian fuel cycle can promote, in the long term, the diversification of nuclear fuel supplies to European VVER-type reactors (in, for example, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary)..."

Where fuel 'diversification' really means 'only Westinghouse knock-offs' in those Russian desinged, engineered and built 'European-style' VVER reactors.

"...Ukraine also seeks to reduce its dependence on Russia in the field of spent nuclear fuel management. Although Ukraine has two storage facilities for spent fuel (dry, at the Zaporozhye plant, and wet, at Chernobyl), the fuel from other power plants is exported to Russia. Therefore, Ukraine wants to invest in the long-term storage of spent fuel on its own territory..."

Every rational person in any country on earth wants to get rid of that crap somewhere else, not in their own country. Sounds like some U.S. based-nuclear whore contractor... [cough] Holtec...  has their sites on a mega-nuclear dump at Chernobyl. Not just for Ukraine of course, but for the rest of Europe as well. Fuck the Ukraine people - they don't have a say in the matter. This is the post-Soviet rape of Ukraine national resources ver. 2.0 - you know there has to be a Jewish-Ukrainian oligarch somewhere in the mix that's set to make a fortune on this planned radioactive wonderland.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 05:10 | 5595604 trader1
trader1's picture

5 junks for copy/pasting facts?

Wed, 12/31/2014 - 00:06 | 5596626 Paveway IV
Paveway IV's picture

This isn't American Idol, trader1 - the junks are directed at the content of your post. 

These are hardly facts. This embarassing PISM 'analysis' may have well just come right off the PR desk of Westinghouse and Holtec. Poland's issues are arguably as complex as those of Ukriaine and inevitably intertwined with its neighbor. The issues are certainly worthy of analysis and Polish comment. However, they deserve far more thought than this superficial 'cram Western nuclear down the Ukrainian's throats' piece. Despite whoring the U.S. line for their funding, PISM does occasionally put out some well-though-out pieces. This certainly isn't one of them.

Ukraine wasn't perfect two years ago, but the people had jobs, food, heat and far fewer Nazis running around. Ukraine's problems today are not a result of any kind of past economic dependence on Russia (except in the minds of U.S. neocons). They are not going to be solved by any kind of Western-driven anti-Russian energy policy or risky 'independence' promised by fracking, massive nuclear waste dumps or cheap, knock-off reactor fuel. Ukraine is no more capable of any kind of energy independence than Poland. The solution is to live with your neighbors, not snub them or fight proxy wars at the whim of a distant master. 

When the U.S. goes in (with Poland's assistance) and completely fucks over the lives of 46 million Ukrainians for the purpose of 'containing' Russia, they should at least wait some civil amount of time before allowing U.S. corporations to go in and sodomize their unwitting victims. Ukraine (and Poland, for that matter) don't need to be saved from Russia - they need to be saved from America.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:13 | 5594257 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

To extend & pretend, "we" have to centralize. Cocksuckers.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:15 | 5594262 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Yes a group backed by military forces needs to move in on the NWO and arrest them and prosecute them for terrorism. People are on the verge of discovering something that will alter reality in a way not perceived before. In intelligence that supercedes any primitive social organizations that have survived up until today. That is all about to change but it requires that the primitives be arrested and their ill-gotten wealth be redistributed by way of referendum. We are here and there is not anyway that oligarchs and their primitive cultures shall defeat this thing. It is nameless and brings change of its own accord. Inevitable as it is justice by others in control will greatly lessen the damage possible by the antiquated systems as they suffer defeat.

The real enemy is corporate isolationism. That enemy is dying.

Arrest Loyd Blankfein.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:55 | 5594930 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

And then the rest of them.

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:57 | 5594932 FIAT CON
FIAT CON's picture

Any Banker that say's "He's doing God's work" should be arrested.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 02:18 | 5595499 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

How about death bed confession by G.H.W. Bush??

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:17 | 5594268 fibonacci's claus
fibonacci's claus's picture

seig hail means "hail victory" right?

i can't see the germans playing butt darts with putin.  although, merkel does have a giant ass

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:33 | 5594310 highwaytoserfdom
highwaytoserfdom's picture

Gitmo fo CFR DHS stop pensions for MIC for regime change and creating debt slavery.How about changing

G20 creditor list to creators eat the losses...


 

 

"The Rothschilds, and that class of money-lenders of whom they are the representatives and agents -- men who never think of lending a shilling to their next-door neighbors, for purposes of honest industry, unless upon the most ample security, and at the highest rate of interest -- stand ready, at all times, to lend money in unlimited amounts to those robbers and murderers, who call themselves governments, to be expended in shooting down those who do not submit quietly to being robbed and enslaved." by: Lysander Spooner
(1808-1887) Political theorist, activist, abolitionist
Fri, 12/26/2014 - 17:59 | 5594371 homebody
homebody's picture

When a peoples have little or nothing to lose, no hope for a better future, being further punished economically because of some dink with a Stalin complex - but have the weapons to take down the privileged countries out of spite and jealosy - blammy

 

There is no stopping this race to world destruction.  Alas Babylon 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:01 | 5594379 geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

German internal presure is meaningless although welcome.  China has recieved gratis all the technology they need or can absorb from the West and know if Russia is overtaken by West through force or economic  strangulation, they will be the next target by US Neocons.  China will therefore play a balanciing act of cooperating with Russia to thwart war in Europe and at same time  maintain an export market in USA through combination of buying Treasuries and trade financing.  .  In a sense China will play a pivitol role in maintaining world peace.  Who would have thought China as the keeper of world peace 20 years ago.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:05 | 5594391 homebody
homebody's picture

Sure - that's why China is building subs as fast as possible with ICBM capability - time to learn another language (if we survive)

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:07 | 5594512 geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

If you were a Chinaman wouldn't you do the same considering the US military arsenal near your border able to cut off sources of raw materials ? Remember pre WWII  Japan ? Russia also has a mighty  arsenal , but does not seem to be a deterent on her borders with Nato countries. I just do not believe the conflict is over impoverished Ukraine.  It is all about global strategy, raw materials, energy, empire preservation and quest to maintain growth in a deficit ridden global economy---alll the ingredients  for WWIII.  As a first step to peace, nations should begin to live within their means and refrain from exporting deficits, inflation and triggering currency wars or miltary actions and coups that lead to real wars.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:42 | 5594713 22winmag
22winmag's picture

The main event occurs when Russia and China go at it... and no oceans separate the two.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 01:03 | 5595388 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Kissinger & Nixon must have negotiated to get China to produce goods fir USA & allow US investment in China in return for US Technology.

NSA, UK, Australia SPYing only provided more technology for more deals....

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:21 | 5594420 Duc888
Duc888's picture

 

 

 

I guess they don't realize NATO is corporate welfare / jobs program for the MIC.

 

Any Politicians that "votes" for war needs to have their complete families all the way out to second cousins sent to the front lines.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:38 | 5594708 22winmag
22winmag's picture

Truer words were never spoken.

 

Piss on that warmongering anachronism known as NATO.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:30 | 5594436 Lone_Star
Lone_Star's picture

I'm sorry, I've got to say this. I find it hard to believe that some of you, which I agree with most of the time, passed world history in high-school. Trying to lay all blame of WWII or any ills, as I've seen in previous posts, on Jews alone is pretty thin. I'm not going to get into the historical hell they've been through, but it's a little more than lopsided against them.

As for the reasoning of the letter, it's clearly statecraft, in that it is being used by Germany as an out. They can say to Russia, "look, we want to be friends, but the rest of the EU and the U.S. is forcing us into a corner." That way when the SHTF, they can decide which way team to pick based on the direction the wind is blowing.

As far as the French are concerned, the only French I've ever had respect for were the resistance fighters during WWII. The rest in my mind, politicians especially, were the most worthless of all Europeans. The Polish on the other hand, first had to deal with the Nazis and extermination/work camps, then the Soviets and Communism.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:46 | 5594475 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture


* In 1945 the Allied Forces on the west front consisted in:  US: 45 divisions  -  UK: 12 divisions  -  France: 9 divisions  -  Poland: 1 division.  In total, not a lot compared with the Soviet forces on the east side, the real winners of WWII.

* In all occupied countries by the Nazis, some citizens, driven by nationalism, ethnic hatred, anti-communism, anti-Semitism, or opportunism knowingly engaged in collaboration. But the LVF (Legion Volontaire Francaise), the French volunteer army that the Germans tried to organize, was a gigantic flop: Only a division was supplied to the German army, whereas the

Netherlands (with a 4 times less important population) supplied 2 divisions.

* In all occupied countries by the Nazis, the Jews have been quite completely exterminated during WW2. In occupied France, “only” (if we may say) 25% of the Jews have been deported. Most of the Jews succeeded to survive thanks to the active and passive resistance of a large part of the population. This explains why France is now, by far, the country in Europe with the largest Jewish community (more than 600 000).

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 20:54 | 5594743 22winmag
22winmag's picture

While we are on the subject of WWII trivia, which was the only foreign fighting force allowed by the Germans to wear the SS patch?

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:20 | 5594834 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

I Think it was Galicians or Ukraine NAZIs.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:59 | 5594937 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Thank you, nmewn.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:34 | 5595006 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Just tryin to keep it real.

There were others, like the 13th Waffen-SS (Hanjar). Now, I don't know what that multi-ethnic division had to do with a blue-eyed blonde "master race" but it certainly fought, bled out and commited atrocities for it.

No one who has ever been in war wishes for it ever happen again (thats for insane people) there is no way back once it starts (its victory or defeat) but no sane man sits around unprepared for it either, it will come, it always comes.

Stay prepared and hope for the best.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:33 | 5595151 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

Complete agreement here.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:27 | 5595025 tarabel
tarabel's picture

On a divisional scale....

5 SS Panzer Div (Wiking) volunteers originally drawn from Scandinavian, Dutch and Flemish volunteers, later reinforced with Volksdeustch from the Balkans.

7 SS Volunteer Mountain Div (Prinz Eugen) Volksdeutsche from Hungary, Rumania, and Yugoslavia.

11 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Div (Nordland) originally comprised of three SS legions from Norway, Denmark, and Holland, reinforced by the usual Volksdeutsche recruits from the Balkans.

13 SS Mountain Division (Handschar) Bosnian Muslims and Croatian Christians.

14 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) Galician Volunteers.

15 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) Latvian Volunteers.

17 SS Panzer Grenadier Div (Gotz von Berlichingen) Germans, Volksdeutsche, Belgians, Rumanians.

18 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Div (Horst Wessel) Germans and general Volksdeutsche Volunteers.

19 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) Latvian Volunteers.

20 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) Estonian Volunteers.

21 SS Mountain Div (Skanderberg) Albanian Volunteers.

22 SS Volunteer Cavalry Division (Maria Theresa) Hungarian Volunteers.

23 SS Mountain Div (Kama) Croatian Volunteers.

23 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Div (Nederland) #2 Dutch Volunteers.

24 SS Mountain Div (Karstjager) Italian Volunteers.

25 SS Grenadier Div (Hunyadi) Hungarian Volunteers.

26 SS Panzer Grenadier Div (unnamed) Hungarian Volunteers.

27 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Div (Langemarck) Belgian Volunteers.

28 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Div (Wallonien) French-speaking Belgian Volunteers.

29 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) Russian Volunteers.

29 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) #2 Italian Volunteers.

30 SS Grenadier Div (unnamed) Russian Volunteers.

31 SS Volunteer Grenadier Div (Bohmen-Mahren) Volksdeutsche drawn primarily from Bohemia and Moravia. 

33 SS Cavalry Div (unnamed) Hungarian Volunteers.

33 SS Grenadier Div (Charlemagne) #2 French Volunteers.

34 SS Panzer Grenadier Div (Landsturm Nederland)  Dutch Volunteers.

A few notes of interest...

The German order of battle included the 250th Infantry Div, also known as the Blue Division and comprised entirely of Spaniards. After Franco asked for the return of the Div in late 1943, about 1/3rd of the men stayed behind and volunteered for the SS.

The 33rd SS Grenadier was originally a legion-sized unit of French Volunteers who served on the Eastern Front from July of 1941 onwards and were later transferred to the SS.

The German order of battle also included the Indian National Army and the George Washington Legion. Undoubtedly some sort of British force as well.

The two Russian SS Divisions were later transferred over to the Russian Army of Liberation, headed by the famous ex-Soviet General Andre Vlasov-- a much more historically important figure than the non-entity Stepan Bandera.

But of course the greatest contributor of foreigners to the ranks of the Wehrmacht came from the Russian Army itself, of whom more than a million wore the Wehrmachtsadler at one time or another, including numerous units posted on the Normandy beaches.

Hope that clears things up a bit for all you admirers of Grandmother Putin.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:08 | 5594950 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

Wrong.

 

Next contestant...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:41 | 5594895 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Latvia & Estonia.

Cursory review, the 15th & 19th Waffen-SS (Latvian) and 20th Waffen-SS (Estonian). Everyone fights for different reasons though, the patch is often times ancillary to fighting foreign invaders, whether communists or fascists ;-)

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:09 | 5594949 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

Wrong.

Next contestant...

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:40 | 5595020 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...there was no 15th & 19th Waffen-SS (Latvian) and 20th Waffen-SS (Estonian)? It may not have been the answer you wanted to see but they were very much real.

PROVE me wrong.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 22:44 | 5595029 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

See answer below, but the challenge was to state the ONLY foreign troops... an all-inclusive list at which you definitely failed.

So you get a double wrong for not reading the question before you answered either time.

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:57 | 5595208 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Don't be petulant.

The question was:

"While we are on the subject of WWII trivia, which was the only foreign fighting force (implying one) allowed by the Germans (again, one, the Germans) to wear the SS patch (which is Nazi insignia, again, one)?"

I said there were many "foreign forces" allowed by the Nazis to wear it, which is unequivocally true.

The question should have been phrased: "How many foreign fighting force(s) (implying besides nationalities other than Nazi-Germans) got to wear the SS patch."

So your point is what?

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 00:20 | 5595250 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

Two observations first.

1) You were correct in your answer so far as it went. You identified actual units and their origins. But he wanted a list of the "only" foreign forces allowed to wear SS insignia. This means that the question involved absolute inclusiveness as opposed to your partial listing. Nor did you in fact specify that others were to be considered in your original post-- to which I was responding.

2) What was the purpose of the question? My assumption was that the idea was to tar the Baltic States and Ukraine as a bunch of Nazis. I judged this to be so based on the two answers that served to reinforce this (assumed) point by not listing any of the many other nations swept up in the "Volunteer" SS net. Every territory under the heel of the Nazis contributed something, as did every territory under the boot of Great Stalin contribute something to the Soviet armies. Many of these people did not have a choice, often served multiple times in both armies, and would probably have preferred a pox on both of their houses.

The record now stands reasonably corrected, so far as I can determine, which was my point. If I did so in a way that turned out to be somewhat crude in nature, you have my apologies.

In the words of US Grant:

Let us have peace.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 10:16 | 5595916 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

he said "only foreign force"   

implies singular?

there was very many and even less known:

I can think of Ostturkiscker WaffenVerband SS with collar patch

and Wallonians of Degrelle

 

 

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:58 | 5595884 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

You refer to the Sieg Runes?

All inclusive? don't miss these

I have see Turks...Osturkiscker WaffenVerband SS with collar patch

 

 

 

 

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:32 | 5595109 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

Wow, where to begin analyzing this...

1) From 9/39 to 6/41, the Western Allies faced Germany alone while Russians sold war supplies to the Wehrmacht and digested its stolen half of Eastern Europe.

2) Western divisions were far larger (2+ times larger) than authorized strength of Soviet Divisions, almost all of which were severely ground down and not at full strength. 

3) German forces facing Western Allies on 6/1/44: 2.4 million mostly fresh troops (fresh in West but not Italy). German forces facing Russians on  6/1/44: 2.8 million in burnt out divisions. Plus approx 280,000 allies looking to defect.

4) Estimated percentage of Allied strength drawn off in war versus Japan-- 15-20%. Percentage of Russian war effort versus Japan prior to the DAY AFTER HIROSHIMA: 0%

5) Percentage of vehicles operating with Soviet (not Red) Army and supplied by lend-lease: >50.

6) Estimated percentage of total Soviet war economy supplied by lend-lease: 10-15%

7) Estimated loss to German economy from round-the-clock Allied Strategic Bombing campaign: 9%  

8) Estimated Soviet contribution to Strategic Bombing Campaign: 0%

9) The Western Allies needed huge naval and merchant marine forces to fight a two-ocean war.

Counting cannon fodder divisions is not a real good way to judge the respective contributions of the various Allied powers in the war. Neither side could have prevailed alone against the Germans. Well, maybe the Western Allies after the invention of the atomic bomb.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 23:50 | 5595178 tarabel
tarabel's picture

 

 

One other note of interest regarding French contributions to the German war effort. Check out Albert Speer's (Hitler's architect and later Armaments Minister) for the answer on what all those unemployed Frenchmen were doing with their time.

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 15:34 | 5596833 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

French contribution ? don't forget this :

* By the time of the Normandy invasion, Free French forces numbered approximately half a million regulars and more than 100,000 French Forces of the Interior (FFI).

The FFI in Normandy and the Île-de-France region surrounding Paris began to harass German forces intensively, cutting roads and railways, setting ambushes and fighting conventional battles alongside their allies. This caused the death, arrest, or deportation of 90,000 resistance fighters  -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance

General Eisenhower estimated the value of the Résistance to have been equal to ten to fifteen divisions at the time of the landings  -  http://voices.yahoo.com/the-french-resistance-world-war-ii-400073.html

* The Free French 2nd Armored Division, under General Philippe Leclerc, landed in Normandy, and, in the waning days of summer 1944, led the drive toward Paris, and later Strasbourg.

* 3500 French pilots served in the RAF  -  http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force  

and others in Russia in Normandie-Niemen Squadron  -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandie-Niemen

* 6 Free French divisions (230 000 men) did contribute hugely to the Provence landing - under command of General De Lattre de Tassigny (Operation Dragoon). They held their ground in Alsace during the battle of the Bulge, disobeying Eisenhower’s orders to retreat.

* In 1945 the Allied Forces on the west front consisted in:  US: 45 divisions  -  UK: 12 divisions  -  France: 9 divisions  -  Poland: 1 division.  In total, not a lot compared with the Soviet forces on the east side, the real winners of WWII.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:50 | 5594482 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I link you to a state-sponsored source, but start here: The Balfour Declaration.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 21:20 | 5594828 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Thank you.

You have made the Point!

Sat, 12/27/2014 - 09:12 | 5595846 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

You know nothing about this subject.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:36 | 5594448 Salzburg1756
Salzburg1756's picture

"Go ahead, make my day." (McCain family)

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:41 | 5594461 BillyPilgrim
BillyPilgrim's picture

The annexation was not in violation of international law. The people voted for it in a referendum, the parliament requested it, the democratically chosen president approved it.

Totally valid.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 18:49 | 5594479 Karaio
Karaio's picture

The Germans are with the ass in hand, are with a fear insane.

They know:

1- Fighting with Russia and Russians is crazy, and cities, it is not a virgin woman indoors.

2 Russia is independent of food, steel, oil and electricity, a Russian may well live with a Lada in the cold rather than with a Mercedes, an Audi etc. .

3- Most shit that EU did was to boycott the south pipeline, were held hostage in Turkey for gas. A lot of European companies mainly of German steel and technology take the ass, a lot of jobs lost. The Turks have a good memory, you know that nearly twenty years trying to enter the European Community and are not accepted, revenge will come soon, very soon.

Another thing, do not forget the French, the Russian sailors (400 military) returned to Russia three days ago, the Mistral (are two) by way were pro bag, Russia gave up those things. Wait for the financial rebound.

The rest of the EU can not export their agricultural production to Russia, are fucked, forgot that Russians always have lots of fruit, vegetables and the like stored in glass as vinaigrette indeed any Slavic have it in kkkkk house, half my blood is Slavic and even in Brazil I have these canned at home.

Obosta and his boys jumped the Millennium History and Geography classes exceptionally.

You, Americans, this time, messed with great people.

It will be very difficult to return the "status quo".

Divide and rule is gone.

hehe.

Fri, 12/26/2014 - 19:35 | 5594583 smacker
smacker's picture

"...half my blood is Slavic"

OK, that places you in the South of Brazil. Rio Grande do Sul? Santa Catarina? Paraná?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!