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The Gloves Come Off: Germany Says Grexit "Manageable" As Tsipras Demands Greek Debt Writeoff
With just three weeks until the Greek snap elections on January 25 in which Tsipras' Syriza is virtually assured of victory (unless somehow G-Pap's "new and improved" political party manages to steal enough votes to prevent this, although one wonders what his political campaign will be: "vote for us because this time we know how to avoid a sovereign bankruptcy"), Germany takes yet another opportunity to remind the Greeks that it won't be blackmailed (spoiler: it will) into another year of funding the insolvent Greek state which in turn will pretend to engage in another year of "reforms" (spoiler: it won't). Recall it was on New Year's Eve when Merkel's chief advisor Michael Fuchs explicitly used the "blackmail" word saying:
"If Alexis Tsipras of the Greek left party Syriza thinks he can cut back the reform efforts and austerity measures, then the troika will have to cut back the credits for Greece," he said.
"The times where we had to rescue Greece are over. There is no potential for political blackmail anymore. Greece is no longer of systemic importance for the euro."
Today, concerned that Tsipras' ascent to power will mean precisely that, namely more "blackmail" by Greece of Germany and the Eurozone, as a Grexit opens the way for a collapse of the monetary union and a return to the Deutsche Mark which would cost Germany far more than continuing the annual charade of keeping Greece in the Euro, Spiegel is out with another piece saying "Bundesregierung hält Ausscheiden Griechenlands aus dem Euro für verkraftbar", or loosely translated, the Federal Government considers Greece's exit from the euro manageable.
In the article Spiegel says, per Bloomberg, that German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, contrary to the German government's previous stance, consider a Greek exit from the euro area to be manageable because of progress made since height of sovereign debt crisis in 2012, Der Spiegel reports in e-mailed summary of article, citing unidentified people close to govt.
Risk of contagion is limited because Portugal and Ireland have addressed their fiscal issues and ESM is ready as rescue mechanism while security of large banks to be maintained through banking union.
European lawmakers don’t know how a country could leave the euro while remaining in the EU and would have to task legal experts with clarifying issue.
German govt considers Greek exit from euro area to be almost inevitable if opposition leader Alexis Tsipras leads the country’s next govt, ditches austerity measures and stops servicing Greece’s debts.
Worse, a Grexit now would mean all hopes of ECB QE would be put on indefinite hiatus until the legal framework of not only funding sovereign deficits but also monetizing bonds from an imploding Eurozone is justified. It also means that peripheral bonds, which have priced in well over 100% of a European QE, would go bidless overnight, leading to market crashes across the continent, then to bank runs first across the periphery then the core, and ultimately lead to a full-blown European depression.
Reality aside, why is Spiegel going with this now? Simple: moments ago Tsipras made some headlines of his own, making it very clear just what will happen if and when his party wins the election in 3 weeks.
- TSIPRAS SAYS SYRIZA WANTS WRITEDOWN ON NOMINAL VALUE OF GREEK DEBT
- TSIPRAS SAYS TRUE MENACE FOR EUROPE IS MERKEL'S POLICY
- TSIPRAS SAYS GREEK DEBT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE, NEEDS RESTRUCTURING
And in detail, from Bloomberg:
Syriza’s win in forthcoming Greek snap elections will pave way for progressive policy change in Europe against German Chancellor Merkel’s austerity, party leader Alexis Tsipras says according to e-mailed transcript of speech in Athens today, with Podemos in Spain, Sinn Fein in Ireland to follow. Syriza will guarantee bank deposits. [ZH: curious, just how would Syriza do that?]. "Syriza will put an end to social tragedy, nightmare of austerity."
- Syriza not seeking nor planning to break with European partners, but to put end to economic and social absurdity of memoranda and austerity.
- Syriza seeks within framework of EU and European institutions to achieve realistic deal on servicing debt, developing real economy
- Syriza will conduct sincere, resolute negotiation on debt
As for the punchline, on one hand we have this:
- Germany had most of nominal value of debt written off in 1953, same should be done for Greece in 2015
... and on the other:
- Syriza wants quantitative easing by direct purchase of govt bonds by ECB
Alas Syriza does not get that one is incompatible with the other, and in fact a Greek debt write off means no more ECB QE as the ECB's balance sheet - a proud holder of tens of billions of insolvent Greek debt still marked to par - would become impaired, and thus crush any political capital Draghi may have left with the Germans and the Bundesbank.
That said, the consensus can certainly forget the ECB announcing public QE at its next monetary policy meeting on January 22, which will be followed just 3 days later by the Greek national elections. In fact, things in the coming weeks and months may get very ugly, fast depending on how things in Greece play out.
So after 3 years of kicking the can and pretending it is fixed, suddenly everything that is broken in the Eurozone threatens to float right back to the surface, leading to another showdown when photos such as this one become a daily occurrence.
The only question is whether this time anyone will believe the rhetorical "whatever it takes" threats uttered by the one central bank which for the past 4 years has proven it is utterly incapable of acting, instead chosing to talk each and every day, a strategy that has worked brilliantly, until now.
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No point ignoring the obvious, the Greeks are going to go left, so Germany must face facts. I like the more direct talk, at least we all know it's coming.
If Greece leaves the Eurzone then it's adios to the Euro.
How anyone could consider this to be "managable" is beyond me.
bullshit. the powers that be have been spending the past several years sucking greece dry while unwinding and dissolving all connections to greece so that the inevitable grexit will be of little systemic importance, just as they were the last 5 times they defaulted...... the greeks will be on their own this year and will be made an example of.............
Naw.
If Greece walks away through default, then other countries mired in debt may well take the same option as Greece.
The powers that be cannot be seen to allow a member country to exit.
But do they want to stand outside?
irishcyclist you need to stop reading archives of mark grant 2012.....your argument is passe....
The entire reason for the creation of the Euro was to consolidate power and control over multiple countries in a stepwise progression towards global centralization and control.
It's a fundamental tenant of the NWO/ZWO/Syndicate/Global Financial Oligarchy or whatever you prefer to call them.
Some of you may remember the entire Polish government going down in flames in a plane crash. This is what happens to uncooperative politicians.
The point being, if the current Greek politicians won't play ball, the new ones will, or the new new ones will regardless of how many plane crashes or hot tub accidents the ZWO has to perform.
Greece has a free pass in a few years when the NatGas flows from Turkey into southern Europe.
Greece will pickup enough to support its economy, backed by Turkey and Russia, and other gas producers.
It's what's next and they can 'play' Communist without any debts remaining for a long time.
Yup, high rates were supposed to surely kill it too - didn't.
Iceland and Detroit 'exited' essentially, but not completely, and we survived the outcomes.
Grexit might mess up the Euro for a while, maybe that is why Euro has been going down lately in anticipation.
How about Italy then ?
Because if the Greeks go, so will Italy.
and Iberia. Austria will stay with the Fatherland.
I see Belgium as the big loser. Central to nothing.
The Southern Euro will need a new faux capital. How about Sicily;)
If one leaves it shows others they can leave, and avoid paying any penalty to th EU. The EU's threat to extract penalties and to isoate any who might leave has gotten stale.
But do the banker still win. The bankers actively put in attachments to the early bank bailouts that the debt would become the countries debt (no longer the debt of a bank in the country) and would be use the countries infrastructure as collateral. Greece and some others were presented this. Later some leaders resisted and may have vetoed those provisions. Would be interesting to know to what extent some of these countries could find that the bankers own their electrical, water, roadway, etc. infrastructures.
Always thought some of those little countries being blackmailed should have loaded all the bad debt, CDS and such into one bank and officially declared it to be in full default, that no bailout would be provided and all insurance policies related to the debt to be activated.
Greece's ace in the hole is that it is geographically located where central Europe is most easily accessed by air, via a hostile force. So inviting Greece into the Euro and trying to keep it in has always been strategically important to the core of NATO. Greece has been virulently anti PAX-Americana and left-ish for decades, mostly due to past CIA false-flag terrorism scheme fuck-ups. And sensitive to core of Europe because of Greece's unusual mix of both advanced NATO weapons and advanced Russian arms, i.e. Greece has always been making a strategic two-way bet, while also running up the debt easy-credit flows. Which is why Cyprus was also a Russian financial haven. This is another reason why its debt to GDP ratio was tolerated for so long and why GS was winked at, and permitted to flagrantly increase it further, using subterfuge. It was approved by NATO central.
So in the end, Europe tends to hold its nose and cut Greece the slack it wants, at least so far it more-or-less has.
I wonder if riot dog is still alive.
No :(
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11151215/Greek-r...
Google images of riot dog, you will see some cool pics, and cool artwork. I'm sad. RIP riot dog.
http://tinyurl.com/lj9ls9r
I'm sad too :( What a fascinating story.
the riot dog ruled !!!!
"I wonder if riot dog is still alive. "
The Sons of Riot Dog shall avenge their Father's death!!!!
Coincidence?
I think not.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/051/118/29251_1417485884...
Default, call the German banker's (Moneychangers) bluff. Let's get the show on the road.
Strangely enough, the myth of "turning the tables" extends farther back into human history than your conception.
There are Sumerian tales from 5,000 years ago of a great elder who smashed the structures (and strictures) of commerce. Even farther, in my own lush Valley, there are tales of merchants who dominated commerce 13,000 years ago by disrupting the powers that be.
Modern German bankers are, by and large, pragmatic and altruistic. This is by my experience and therefore quite limited. However, History would seem to prove the exent of your complaint invalid unless you have concrete data on Germans' malfeasance.
Bankers are altruistic? Since when?
Germans, by and large, are the most malleable altruists of the last 50 years because that action is the exact opposite of what allegedly happened in a camp somewhere in Poland.
Every Jerry banker I know is positive, clean and open about my investments, unlike any lying American dirtbag at Ed Jones. Like I said, Anecdotal.
Feel free to do a little research of history as to the true "behind the scenes" cause of WW1 and WWII. It's not the official narrative.
The everyday banker you deal with may seem that way but the true top eschelon banker is anything but.
You may be a Barnaby but you're no Barnaby Jones.
I enjoy a man with income. Nice work holding the line!
You just reminded me that I don't have a German bank account, but I should.
Thanks.
"It's not the official narrative."
I'd take it a step further Colonel and say that narrative actually gets stood on its head. Here's just one example. Britain and France declared war on Germany in 1939 for invading Poland. The USSR invaded Poland at the same time. Germany was destroyed and the USSR bacame allies.
Strange, no?
"Official Narrative" is administration speak for "Bull shit we feed the masses."
Wash your mouth out Mr. Burns! You seem to want to assert some lack in the eternal enmity between the slavic superman and the evil Anglo-Saxonite 5-headed beast! The Anglos have always been at war with Mother Russia!!
oh ... wait ... that's not true at all ... with a moment's reflection it seems to be a load of complete and utter horseshit which doesn't comport with the known facts ... apparently we were really allies for most of a decade, and the British were so friendly with Stallin that they donated the Rolls Royce jet engine to the CCCP which was then used to power the MiG15s ... which same MiG15s then fought against F-86 Sabres in Korea, and again over the Taiwan strait, then was flown against F4 Phantoms in Vietnam.
Luckily the evil Anglo-Saxons were so damned nice to Russia, to help preserve its strategic capacity to complete in modern air combat, eh? Something they still struggle with today ... and airpower propulsion tech in general.
Thank you Barnaby. I have worked all over the world and found the German people among the best, generally reliable, helpful and honorable. I have immense regard and affection for them and the way they've been traduced, demonized and vilified is nothing short of scandalous. My uncle was imprisoned by the Germans during WW 2 and told me there was no ill-treatment whatsoever.
FWIW my experience with German people lead to my revisiting the Official Narrative of WW 2. I have never looked at the world the same way again after I had finished my research.
My own dear uncle produced what is now known as aspirin in Bayer Labs, an American consortium.
Vilified senselessly for his efforts, a sweet and flawed man.
Today at about 4 EST.
"Bankers are altruistic? Since when?"
I think he meant allthrusadistic.
"Default, call the German banker's (Moneychangers) bluff. Let's get the show on the road. "
+1
IF the Greeks want to restructure, and the Germans think that their Euro/Mark system can survive a Greek restructuring, and further -that a Greek restructuring won't open the door for Italy and Spain to restructure as well: then pull the fucking pin and get it the hell over with.
Now, about those pesky derivatives stack...
Ja! Mein Oberst vorne in vergessenheit !
"Vorwärts! Ich führe euch herrlichen Zeiten entgegen!"
Debt: The Greek Fire of the 21st Century.
This will be an interesting year! Keep your fingers on the sell button.
keeping fingers on the sell button has been the worst advice for the past 7 years and will continue to be the worst......wake up man, the system is rolling along beautifully....i know....i know...you will be right one day....in the future.......soon....just any day now....its coming...blah dee fucking blah......btfd or you are a dumbass.....
Oh look the Cab Drivers are talking stocks... Sell signal!
GYMON!
Bring It!!!!
At some point, Europeans will get fed up of the Fed/GS, the NSA and DOD, and cook up a palatable pretext to set themselves free.
Might as well be a Grexit.
A default by any other nsame is still default
Actually, a default isn't a default until the Determinations Committee of the ISDA (International Swaps and Derivatives Association) says it is. What may seem like an obvious failure-to-pay credit event to us rational creatures can be declared a non-default, if this is what's needed to guarantee that the right "market participants" come out on top. cf: Argentina
and that is the bottom line
The Central banksters are winning the confidence game even as Western nations have less than zero chance of ever paying off their debts:
Bond yields have plummeted to record lows across the eurozone as deflation becomes lodged in the system and markets bet on a blitz of asset purchases by the European Central Bank this month.
German five-year yields dropped below zero for the first time ever, touching -0.007pc on the first day of new year trading, implying that investors are willing to pay the German government to store their money for the rest of this decade.
Italian, Spanish and Portuguese yields have seen spectacular drops over the past two trading days. The French state can borrow for five years at a rate of 0.13pc, and Ireland can do so at 0.32pc.
Even if Greece leave the EU, it will have little effect as Central banksters have asserted their omnipotence. The new Greek currency will have little value and inflation in Greece will rival that in Venezuela and will be a lesson to those who threaten to default on their debt.
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/the-fast-money-is-following-draghi...
"The Central banksters are winning the confidence game even as Western nations have less than zero chance of ever paying off their debts "
These ARE NOT debts God dammit !
Debts are designed to be paid off.
Government Bonds ARE NOT designed to be paid off.
Who the hell thinks that the Citizenry of the United States are going to pay off $18 Trillion fucking Dollars with interest how and when? IDIOTS.
"Who the hell thinks that the Citizenry of the United States are going to pay off $18 Trillion fucking Dollars with interest how and when?"
And with what?
All of our currency is loaned into existence at interest and therefore all of our currency is debt, and cannot be used to "pay off" debt- one must use non-existant money.
Show me the fuckin' money!
"All of our currency is loaned into existence at interest and therefore all of our currency is debt, and cannot be used to "pay off" debt- one must use non-existant money. "
Not quite ALL, my friend.
There is actual currency.
The true coin of the realm: Eagles of silver and gold.
-Not that there are enough to satisfy the outlandish pyramided debt stacks at anything close to face valuation...
Possible the recent rates are pushed down in anticipation of Grexit, to soften the impact.
The Greeks can just throw in the towel and live off their pension funds. It's transferable right down the line, to the next generation.
OOPS...Forgot FUBAR
Grexit will have a huge impact on the world , bye bye EU ,trully your numbers are numbered!
Boy 2015 is starting with a BANG
Heard this too many times to care.
People tend to jump the gun tooo fast ,but let's be honest :Greece is a Huge issue for the EU and there is no good or easy way out or solution (just pure ugly)
Post WW2 Greek political establishment is supported by Britain and the U.S. Greece is located strategically and must not fall to Communism. Collapse of Soviet Union and Rise of Euro, does not change leadership dynamic in Greece.
1)
Greece’s leaders print up sovereign bonds and exchange them for Euro’s, usually in English, German, or French banks. Said PRIVATE banking corporations, create the Euros from nothing, in exchange for the bonds. Usury, of course, is embedded in the bond as a function.
2)
Greece spends their Credit Euro’s into their money supply. This money is directed at consumption and buying off political favors. (At this point, two economic laws have been broken: Debts point outside of Greek legal system and Credit money spent on consumption)
3)
Credit money spent into Greek Money supply finds its way to buy a BMW or other imported good. Since Germany is a mercantile country, they are happy to have surplus exports, to suck up credit Euros from the periphery. (Germany should know better as they got screwed by Versaille treaty in similar mechanism – Germany could not export their way to get hard currency to pay debts. Another law is broken. Exports and Imports should balance.)
4)
Greece then prints up another bond and takes it to perhaps a German bank, where their former Euros now reside as German Savings. This new bond re-finances the debt from former bond. In this case the usury becomes principle in new bond. (Yet another economic rule is now broken. Rolling over usury makes it go exponential as it is interest on interest)
5)
Greece spends Euros into its money supply on more non-production. The cycle renews.
6)
Greece has no sovereign money, so there is no exchange rate mechanism that says to devalue your currency and hence pay off foreign debts. Even if they could become mercantile, it is not in the Greek economy to become Germans. (Another rule broken: No real feedback mechanism to prevent rent taking. Three entities in on the game: Private Euro Credit Creating Banking Corporations, Greek Political Oligarchs, German Mercantilism.) Who gets screwed? German labor and Greek Labor.
7)
How to settle the debts? Finance will want Greek Lands or real assets transferred to collapse the debt instruments. (Another rule broken: Don’t ever let private finance rule over sovereignty, otherwise you become slaves in the lands of your fathers.)
Lots of rules now broken in a giant circle jerk. Where were the economists?
"Lots of rules now broken in a giant circle jerk. Where were the economists? "
CAPTURED. -The 'eCONomists' all work for the Banks or the Governments or other Bank or Government/Politician sanctioned/controlled/funded institutions such as Universities and Think Tanks.
Show me an 'economist' that does NOT function as a goal-seeking tool of institutional policy of some sort or another.
Correct. And even those very few 'independent' ones in think tanks or academia will find themselves rapidly and musteriously out of funding if they step out of the reservation.
Dimitris Kazakis
link here.
He Repudiates All the Odious Debt,
Nationalizing the Central Bank (Open all the Dark secrets since its inception)
New Currency ,New Drachma or whatever else is called even Tallanta (Ancient multiplier of Drachma 1 Tallanto = 6000.00 drachmas
Sit on the Dock all Perpetrators, (All Hangers and Guillotine makers welcome)
New Constitution with Direct Democracy not Representative Apparatchiks (Swiss Style, well almost)
"He Repudiates All the Odious Debt,
Nationalizing the Central Bank (Open all the Dark secrets since its inception)
New Currency ,New Drachma or whatever else is called even Tallanta (Ancient multiplier of Drachma 1 Tallanto = 6000.00 drachmas
Sit on the Dock all Perpetrators, (All Hangers and Guillotine makers welcome)
New Constitution with Direct Democracy not Representative Apparatchiks (Swiss Style, well almost) "
I like most of this.
Off the cuff I would offer one vital caveat:
DIRECT DEMOCRACY MUST ENTAIL DIRECT FUNDING OF A SERVICE OR PROGRAM EXCLUSIVELY BY THOSE VOTERS.
X-number of People want to pool THEIR RESOURCES they can.
NO expropriation of Other Peoples property/money via the ballot box.
YOU vote for it -YOU fund it entirely amongst yourselves.
NO Debt unless is apportioned amongst those that vote for it. NO bail-outs. NO bail-ins.
+100000
Your addition too. Every party has to fund itself with COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY and No outside (NO Dual Citizens allowed, My addition) funding.
His side have apparently has members from across the spectrum, i.e from Old Left to Old Right and non commited.
This Front is a Nation wide front to save their asses, from the Banksters and the Old Political Elite, that you bet your bottom dollar are also the Creditors.
Good summary.
Actually, what you've described (with minor variations) has happened all around the world. The difference is Greece and other EU debtors have no currency risk, thus the debt can be piled higher than in emerging markets where debt in foreign currency sets a hard limit when the exchange rate collapses.
Prior to the EU, the exchange rate was the flywheel that limited foreign borrowing. The EU effectively removed that restraint, so (politics being what it is) a runaway debt trap was ineviitable.
MEFOBILLS
Another great post. And great writing skills that are easy to follow and to understand.
So, I am glad you decided to join us here, at Zero Hedge.
“Where were the economists?”
I hope not in Zero Hedge, because for the most part, they are all a bunch of delusional liars.
“How to settle the debts?”
You know these debts need to be void. Unfortunately, some of the propagandists that post here, at Zero Hedge, are NO better than the fraudster’s economists.
Here’s my beef
I don’t care that the stupid Europeans haven’t learned. Mostly are a bunch of tugs, as far as I am concerned.
“real feedback mechanism to prevent rent taking” ……. That’s my beef
L E G A C Y of A S H E S P23
"Millions of dollars started flowing to Greece—along with warships,
soldiers, guns, ammunition, napalm, and spies. Soon Athens became
one of the biggest American intelligence posts in the world. Truman's decision
to fight communism overseas was the first clear direction that
American spies received from the White House. They still lacked a strong
commander. General Vandenberg was counting the days until he could
take over the new air force, but he delivered secret testimony to a handful
of members of Congress in his last days as director of central intelligence,
saying that the nation faced foreign threats as never before. "The
oceans have shrunk, until today both Europe and Asia border the United
States almost as do Canada and Mexico," he said, in a turn of phrase repeated,
eerily, by President Bush after 9/11."
[Lots of rules now broken in a giant circle jerk. Where were the economists?]
1. Advocating ZIRP and NIRP
2. Advocating competitve devaluations
3. Advocating quantitative easing.
4. Advocating "twist" operations to lower long term bond rates.
5. Advocating a return to the status quo rather than fixing structural economic problems.
6. Advocating bail-ins to confiscate funds from savers.
7. Generally denying the current application of Mathematics and History
I've ignored several other smoke and mirrors accounting tricks (e.g. suspension of mark to market) to pare down my list to match your seven.
If Greece exits in a month, will Portugal or Spain or Italy too ?
Would Greece align with Turkey, or a new Empire form ?
Greece and Turkey have a history of emnity. It is highly unlikely that they would form an alliance. Cyrpus.
Given the new natgas pipelines through Turkey to Europe, could there be a major re-alignment given the exigencies ?
Cyprus (North and South?), Greece, Portugal, Spain could buddy up ?
Scrabble or Risk ?
No one knows the future but the likelihood of a new Empire consisting of Turkey and Greece is not feasible in this current geopolitical arena /chess game
having say that, where have you been the past 6 years to come up with such far fetch ideas?
the ultimate threat would be if greece turned to china, or worse, russia or the brics' bank for a bailout. the only problem with that is the crazies would bomb the parthenon because weapons were being stashed there.
not so far afield, i think China owns a good part of the greek's port facilities. The silk road would have GR as a european terminus.
And the new pipeline to Turkey would go through GR.
I think the EU has got a lot to worry about here and it ain't only the GR debt default.
All that is already up and building. The big surprise will come after that : Germany will leave the Euro and join Eurasia ( and be back at the table with Greece to settle the accounts in a different way).
Reduced rate NatGas for a looong time to Europe from Russia/Turkey/Greece. If currencies collapse there remains Energy, and Food as immediate needs.
Russia could also cut a deal with Germany via NordStream rates to end the impasse.
One of the stipulations of the Memoranda is .. wait for it
THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE MONEY FROM ANYONE ELSE but keep paying it through their impossible economy.
Search it, I know it because that was one of the key arguments back at the begining of all this staged charade. Russia offered back then as it did with Cyprus.
They cut off all the avenues for FUNDING FROM Outsiders. Especially for the BRICS
THEY WANT THEIR ASSETS. Harbours, Airports, the lot.
German Finance Minister Schaeuble is positioning himself for the inevitable, which by now everyone sees coming. There won't be "solutions," there will be outcomes, details to be determined, but all of them unpleasant. So, just as Bernanke made the ridiculous statement that the US subprime cancer was "contained," Schaeuble claims that Grexit will be "manageable," and that unpayable debt won't metastasize throughout Europe. Time will tell, and very soon.
Listen up my Greecian friends,
You want to kick this fucker off? I strongly urge you in that direction.
Tell the whole lot of fucking child molesting parasites its game over.
It might kick the fucker off here.....
:-)
Cant wait for the Drachma , the Nazi banking takeover of greece is falling apart, Europe should be forced to pay reparations for the damage the Euro has done to the Greek people.
wasn't it the Greeks themselves who, with the help of the squid, cooked the books to get into the Euro? ... I don't see where reparations would be due.
More like people in Greece who were paid off by the euro bankers cooked the books so that bought and paid for politicians could schmooze their way into the euro.
The banks want to plunder Greece, in order for them to do that, they had to get Greece into the euro so that through planned deflation they could perform a controlled collapse within Greece.
The Euro was the Nazi Dream child, a way to enforce and temper control over defeated nations through centralized banking fraud, Hitlers so-called "European Federation".
The Nazis couldn't take over Europe militarily, so they copied the British monetarist ways of waging wars (financing your enemies domestic enemies) ... a take-over from the inside.... by bribing and paying off politicians and bankers, and selling it as a "good thing" to the population of your target nation through the corporate owned media outlets.
The Euro implementation in Greece was nothing short of an act of war and treason.
If you can't use an army to take over a nation, the next best way is to take over the banking system from the inside out. . . there is no faster way to take control of a nation without even firing a single round... and better yet, this system of take-over is more often than not looked at like a form of voluntary participation (or atleast thats how it is sold to the masses) so the outrage is contained until after the take-over , at which point its too late and the foreign bank has already attached itself to the political processes of the nation, like a parasite, taking control over all aspects of govt, making nothing short of a civil war within the nation a necessary evil for the nation to free itself from the vamperic grip such a system creates.
Looking back at this, it has become clear to me that . . . in all likelihood . . . World War III started some time around 2000~2001, we just didn't know we were under attack yet, because the weapons being used were not conventional bombers, planes , and armies, but what the media sells us as "Modern Finance" and "Globalization".
Edit:
And as far as reparations, Greece was one of the few countries post WWII which never got paid War Reparations from Germany, even though Germans came in and plundered
-The gold of the nation
-The art and history of the nation
-The brothers and sisters of every Greek, my Grandmother lost two brothers in the war, they were taken by germans and put on slave ships never to be seen from again.
-God knows what sick experiments these Germans performed on Greek people in their sick quest to find their Aryan Heritage (which is GREEK HERITAGE BY THE WAY) since it is well known that Greeks were known for having Blond Hair and blue eyes before the Turkish enslavement. Aryan = Greek Blood for the most part, god knows what these sick germans did to the greeks they captured under their Eugenics programs.
Now my grandmother is sitting on her farm home in greece, while tax collectors come by and try to count her windows on her house to determine how much tax she owes this defunct state . . . for her home . . so that she can pay taxes to Nazi German Banks . . .
The irony is almost disgusting, and people have the nerve to say greece isn't owed reparations ??? a country that was invaded by germans, raped by germans of all cultural art and history . . . and then bamboozled into a nazi banking system designed from the get-go to enslave them.... and now the greek people are watching their own corrupt government sell off islands and natural resources/mineral rights and utiltiies that were once owned by greeks to pay this fraudulent debt????
If anything greece should demand all its art back out of every german museum... AND reparations.
There are probably asshole germans out there with mansions built out of columns of the fucking Parthenon.
Germany owes everything to greece, and then some.
the problem with the western central bank scheme is there is no method of debt foregiveness that doesn't harm the banks. and the economy.
in a .gov owned central banking system debt foregiveness doesn't matter because the banks have an unlimited balance sheet that ironically makes solvency a moot variable. china(and japan) are set up for a debt jubilee whether for one company or the entire economy. the fed did something similar but it amounted to a debt jubilee only for the member banks who did not/could not extend the courtesy to its customers(except the back door created for aig).
Greece needs to default on all of its debt, and put that money into their own economy. Call it a 5-year plan. No loans from ANYONE, but they'll have the money not going to debt payments to use at home.
Then you tell all the Greek people the party is over, and it's time to get to work. The Troika yoke is off, now put your money where your mouths are and show us all what you got...
And if they make a decent go of it, consider helping them out a little if they need it. But enough of this paternalistic debt-slavery shit! Face the facts...it was a bad idea to loan them so much money, but creditors have to accept their responsibility here too, and take their damned scalping.
Refusal to take losses is why we're all here in the first place.
+100. Finally a serious post on this topic.
The Greek elites have sucked so much money out of Greece and have put it ouside Greece in various private banks for years. The people lending them the money were fools also.
I feel sorry for the working-class Greek who believed the Eurozone would bring prosperity to Greece through monetary alchemy.
There is plenty of blame to go around and few innocents.
Dand, another double post...
" tell all the Greek people the party is over, and it's time to get to work"
Good luck with that!
The working class Greeks elected the same crooks time after time. And unlike in the USSA where the choice at every level is between two interchangeable bought-and-paid-for clones the Greeks did have a choice but were bought off by the promise of Free Stuff. I know this view has little traction on ZH but it happens to be true. The 'ordinary Greek' is far from blameless in all of this.
Along with the privilege of leadership comes the burden of responsibility...............
Why be such an apologist for those (int'l financiers and local politcians) that clearly deserve the lion's share of the blame?
The old lady pushing her Gyro cart simply trusted that these avaricious scumbags knew what they were doing. She deserves the least of the blame and yet has taken the biggest hit.
She now votes for Tsipras, deal with it.
Greece.
Nice beaches.
Good seafood.
Most of the women are hot until they hit 30.
Sounds a lot like Venezuela ...with less donkey porn maybe...
rubbish i am sure many look great after 30
A small observation if I may?
The older you get, the better young women look. Not only that, but the number of women you consider "young" also expands. If there's any upside to growing old, this has to be it.
An upside, indeed. On the downside, most young women know that when old men have an orgasm, mummy dust shoots out of their dicks.
But we have the experience while you walk around with it in your hand and not knowing what to do with it.
unless somehow G-Pap's "new and improved" political party manages to steal enough votes to prevent this
Which is obviously the aim...
.
Bullshit. It greases the pivot east.
EDIT: A Grexit (by virtue of having the highest probability of default/exit, right here, right now, any exit would do probably) is a psychological hurdle, nothing more, in the grand scheme of things. Greece is not Ostdeutschland.
there are two elephants in the room. germany is one. japan is the other. both realize their future depends upon a transition to the east but are hogtied by the usa. the less relevant the usa are to them the tighter the usa tries to tighten the binds with threats.
You may be right. It makes for an interesting mix.
How would Japan get along with China in this new "Empire of The East" that you speak of?
Every single overexpanded and Piled High Deep in Debt country is looking for an exit.
Maybe,
China takes Japan and all of Asia, and Brazil.
Russia takes Greece and Cyprus (and Turkey may follow). Ukraine is tough call.
Italy teams with Spain and Portugal.
All debts forgiven, then move on.
China and Russia 'victors' have armies, but the 'victim' countries much less so.
in the historical view there is a tremendous amount of respect between china and japan notwithstanding all the crap you read about nanking and the conflict over the senkaku islands currently. china is japan's biggest trading partner. exoil and the crap sent to the usa i think japan is also china's biggest trading partner. trade relations date back, literally thousands of years now. interestingly, the chinese never colonized japan the way it did the rest of the nations in southeast asia and the pacific. the chinese have a unique way of colonization. mind you. it doesn't involve conquest militarily. it has always taken the form of trade, chinese emigration, becoming dominant local and national businessmen and securing economic ties to china through many generations.
when japan embarked upon their western inspired conquest of the pacific japan's goal was to create what was called the asian circle of prosperity. the purpose was to join all the local nations, including china, into a singular economic zone. they studied european(they considered the americans cultural and historical barbarians, too young of a nation to learn from or emulate) empire building and culture and followed suit. they failed obviously.
the irony of today is china is doing the same thing japan tried to do with japan as the key partner for success.
the senkaku island dispute is all about showing japan that the usa does not have its back even as the japan/usa security pact says the usa will guarentee the security of japan because japan's military is so diminished by law and treaty. the conception about the current japanese desire to amend their constitution to allow a full military is not, as reported in the usa, a means to take some pressure from and help the usa defend their interests in the pacific as much as preparing for independence from usa occupation forces in japan and defending themselves independently from both the usa and china.
if anyone thinks japan is a staunch ally of the usa and is willing to die for theinterests of the usa they are mistaken. japan has already told the usa banking establishment to fuckoff with the abe yellowback yen. they have tried to rid themselves of the usa military on the mainland and okinawa(everytime a usa soldier rapes some japanese girl the soldier is doing japan a favor).
no, china and japan are not enemies. they are already coconspirators in kicking the usa out of asia.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your insight besnook, I always enjoy reading your comments :-)
+1000
Has Germany finally realized that Greece is never going to change its' ways?
There is a way to make these things compatible
Greece could issue 100 year 1% zero coupon bonds, and the ECB could buy them. Although the debt isn't actually written off in principle, it is in practice. Problem solved.
While I'm on one,
You think those fuckers that run your lives, that you supposedly elected, give two fucks about the average Greek? You know them fucking child molesting fiends who you pay a fucking good salary and a pension to, even care what thoughts run through your collective heads as you struggle on by with youth unemployment at some 50+% and finding day to day life a bit of a fucking bind?
You know that lot? You owe them fuck all, neither do we, in EVERY country where these filthy paedophile, nation wrecking cunts reside.
Start the start my friends, 2015, a fresh do over, lets fucking give them some.
The people, are, going, to, be, heard.
;-)
Agreed.
"tsipras better sleep with one eye open. and it might not be a bad idea to get a gun, if he doesn't already carry one. the man, unfortunately, is prime assassination material."
Unless this is meant to be the trigger that makes the whole shit show go BOOOMMM!!!
Or maybe an accident will happen to TSIPRAS or one of his friends or family members... you know... just a big coincidence.
You mean like a tragic accident with a nail gun or summat??
DEMOCRACIA!!!!!!!
hells yes. DEMOCRACIA!!!
after tsipras gets elected, when things start going really bad, people will begin joining the golden dawn in droves. the best thing that ever happens to hardcore leftists and rightists --commi-nazis------is things getting really bad.
the nazi's will have more recruits and the hardcore violent commies will also get more recruits. the coalition of socialist pussies that tsipras leads will be another 5 years of whining and bitching with germany and the EU.
when the tru beautiful violence will erupt is anyone's guess. but here at ZH there is a major bias towards premature temporal guesses.
greece and spain both had a dictatorship in the 70's . so , for the time being, we can relax with the knowledge their oldest citizens who are not yet dead are not yet in a rush to regress to the conditions they were raised in 45 some odd years ago.
If that is what it takes for the Statists and Banksters to start catching bullets with their face....I'm OK with that....
Golden Dawn are NOT Nazis. "Nazis" and "far right" are MSM-speak for anyone who opposes the Globalist Order.
GD want to free Greece from the foreign banks and to throw out the millions of Africans and Muslims swamping the country. What so bad about that even if they do use some dodgy-looking symbols?
+1000 people here are quick to throw "terms" around on here, doing nothing but parroting zio bullshit, I'm willing to bet there are very few who even know what the banking/monetary system of Hitlers NSAPD actually were, most here want the jews out of the way yet they seem to want the exact same corrupt "principles" to remain.
As a further lesson heres an explanation of propoganda:
The use of propoganda is meant to bring a complex issue to light via simpler means not through lies or deception but through images and language the "common" man might understand. To "propogandize" a lie is to simplify that lie in the same fashion and therefore becomes the ultimate poison, the ultimate lie.
The use of the word has become poisoned by the great liars, as with virtually all modern propoganda for the jews are masters of the art of "spin doctoring".
Guess their tired of the infinite bailouts.
Greece is not the only country. There are others.
German
"Das Boot!"
"They're."
Das Boot refers to a submarine conflict. If you're referring to the underworld "hacking" flak of the present era, NSA has it covered.
Focus on not being stupid for all of 2015. For the love of God.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=das+boot
Oh ok. Thanks for your internet take on "urban" things.
I am aware of that Four Hour long epic movie.
I am also aware that it means to be removed forcefully, and, that it has meant that for the past THREE AND A HALF FUCKING DECADES AT LEAST.
I am a 55 y.o. and I cannot remember exactly where I first heard that term but I have been using it since my early College Years.
Oh, yeah, I am a Country Boy. Thank God I am a Country Boy. It is not just an "Urban thang".
What amazes me is that you were unaware and then have the arrogance to attempt to point out the stupidity of others?
Yes. I am impressed. Please continue...
Cuntry Boy.
55 year old cuntry boy.
Your cuntry cunt donor must be cuntry proud.
"What amazes me is that you were unaware and then have the arrogance to attempt to point out the stupidity of others?"
Good points ... finally....until next time.
"Das muss das Boot abkönnen!" (The boat has to stand this.)
Happy 2015 BW. ;)
Thank you, a happy 2015 to you and your loved ones, too. By the way, Lothar Günther Buchheim wrote also "The Fortress" and "The Parting", both books featuring characters from "The Boat", very recommendable reads, further complementing many insights from "The Boat". ;)
Not a bailout when you have to blow everyone.
So, blowout then?
From any sort of perspective, what is the point of "managing" a country's debt, when you leave the same politico-bankster-rentier class remain? Another couple rounds of musical chairs?
Must the misallocation of capital and labor persist until every single (non-government) bank account is empty, every asset seized, and the country's currency is utter toilet paper?
Since the shitstorm hit, Greece has not:
1. Addressed nepotism.
2. Established tax collection.
It won't.
You might be right on 1 but regarding 2 the Greek are getting taxed left and right. Taxes on real estate are simply added to the electricity bill. But people stopped paying that and end up getting disconnected.
Similar in Detroit, and they both persist !
Mr. Panos will be pleased.
never gonna happen, fuck germany, since when they decide with their very own weight about rest of other 18 countries ( lituania came 1st 01/15 ) 19 fucking euro lands now, crazy shit.
not happy -> DOOR ? ( not gonna happen, they whine like shit babies, they are most comfy position in whole EU zone, fuck germany...., nazi punks.
will be bended by others
a single eu zone quit = collapse.
their blackmail -> worth crap.
cia will tear merkel like kleenex.
usa will not allow any EU collapse / eu boom....
Greece should leave EURO zone and default on it's debt.
While the Greek lived above their means and are collectively responsible for their mess, the first bailout was to bail out German and French banks that made bad investments. These banks knew that Greece was a mess but invested in the country anyway. With that money the Greek bought German stuff.
When you and I make bad investments we are responsible for that and no one will bail us out. Why does this capitalist principle not apply then to banks. Oh wait, they are too big too fail.
A clause in the Greek bailout demanded that Greece with that money also would buy German military stuff. The bailout also demanded reform and austerity but this has put thousands of SME out of business. 25% unemployment rate, 60% youth unemployment, 60% of population lives below on just on the poverty line and Greece has accumulated more debt than they ever had.
Now the German banks and the Eurozone are safe and Greece can go to hell. Greece should have defaulted back then and go back to the Drachme. It would have been hard times for them but they will have it much harder now when they default. If they default now and need to leave the Euro and perhaps the EU then what options do they have? They will be debt free but will be locked out of money markets. Enter Russia, China and the rest of the brics.
Same as for Ireland and probably the other PIIGS. The process transferred unrepayable debt of local banks and companies, owed to major European banks, to national debt, for which local taxpayers are on the hook, owed to the ECB.
German may think its banks are now safe and so Germany does not have to worry, but that's only by pretending the ECB is solvent (it isn't) and ignoring the fact Germany would be the main party having to bail out the ECB.
Because Merkel and other German political leaders have lied to their electorate about what has been done, they now can't own up to what will be the consequences.
Greece Signs Treaty With Russia, China
Yuan to be Official Currency
Greece Kicks Out NATO
Russia to Occupy Ports
Spain, Italy Eyeing Greek Move
WHY do you think Obama is suddenly making nice with Cuba?
Russia was probably hours away from pulling a Crimea 2.0 and parking the fleet off the fucking coast of Florida.
That could be a potential scenario. China is already investing in a port in Greece. And don't rule out some Orthodox alliance. Anyway, interesting times (and not necessarily good times) ahead in the Med.
The EU fucked up really. Blinded by their ambition to create an empire they overshot.
didn't the greeks buy 2 german submarines with the first bailout?
I don't know what they bought. Perhaps submarines. Also tanks or armoured vehicles. Greece has a quite a big army compared to the size of its population. Airspace is patrolled daily and there are often incidents with the Turkish airforce that intrudes Greek airspace.
Fighter Jets.
It is a house of cards, everyone is afraid to exhale too hard, never mind moving or changing anything.
The debts will not be paid back.
They are theiving because at this point no one knows the difference because, fundamentally, the accounting can never be "accurate." They can sweep and swap and not mark to market. Things can hide in shadowy pools, be rehypothecated, naked shorted, and more.
There is no correct answer to find, no real accounting to be done. There is the flow of funds and how much power you have to be able to make other people buy your definition of the situation (think Corzine and the vaporized 1.2 billion dollars at MF Global, or the two trillion with the pentagon). Everyone is stealing. If you are making it, you are stealing (I put myself in this too). Some folks are positioned to steal BIG. Any of us who benefit from government Ponzi are in on the theft. Everyone is being bought off.
JUST DON'T EXHALE and the flow can go on and be skimmed for a while longer.
When supply chains fail for enough people, more of them will refuse to keep going along with the story that the economy is working. For now, we are on cruise control as central bankers make adjustments and fine tune the speed and direction of the flow.
All the cards are shaking and quaking, some are becoming dislodged here and there. You see Greece, I see Japan, someone else sees Russia or the US. As the cards come down, some of us will still be able to skim from the flow for a while. The flow will not just turn off all of a sudden like a tap.
This is what parasites do. This is how we are acting as a race. We need a better more sustainable model. It is not looking good.
Yes, and why won't we just be able to spin down to a third world level? Suck up to the Government or you and your progeny will be destined to live in squalor?
Brilliant post.
I know something you don't know that will repay the debt easily, and more ad infinitum.
They either have it or they anticipate a gift from a mind like mine.
I'm not going to give it to them.
"We need a better more sustainable model"
I am not sure is such a brilliant post ... no pun intended.
WHY need another model? i think the model is working according to specifications and has been proven to work perfectly well in the past.
the only thing to keep in mind is who built the model and for what purpose?
You seem to put yourself first ... i am not so sure that was the intention of the builder.
The flow will not just turn off all of a sudden like a tap.
Bridges decay and collapse very slowly over a long period of time. Then it seems that they fail all at once.
Like any structure, and an Economy, especially a Planned Economy, is structured, it does decay and collapse very slowly over a long period of time. And like a Bridge, then it will seem to fail, all at once.
Sorry dear. I must disagree, and, respectfully at that. Exponential Growth leads to Exponential Collapse. It will happen exceedingly fast when the fatal moment is realized.
It...it...it...it is just like...dying.
The Waterfall.
The exponential drop off.
The minute before midnight, when all the bacteria in the Petri dish are still alive, and at midnight there are too many of them and they die, for lack of food and becoming overwhelmed by their own waste material.
I agree.
On a long enough time line, you are, and then you are not. I like Kunstler's The Long Emergency for most of this, though. There will be brown outs, black outs, recoveries, more brown outs, etc. but always the slope will trend downwards. And unless we get off the planet, we are fucked. We spent the best of the resources already, I fear.
I am listening to the blues as I write this...it's working.
Of course it's working: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQlRQRGdfQ
John Lee Hooker, Hobo Blues
Abso-fucking-lutely. Unless we get off the planet, we are well and truly fucked.
The alternative is what a wolf pack must do at all fresh kills.
Parasitism is a fair bit more polite at dividing the meat.
Have a great 2015, MsC!
if they exit, the PIIGS will all go down too. They can then print to eternity like the US. Better than slumming in the EU backyard. Atleast you spend like nuts before everything blows. US seems to be enjoying themselves before the SHTF!