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Ekloges 2015: Greece Votes In Historic For Europe Election
Back in June 2012, when Greece last voted to choose its ruling party not once but twice, the Eurozone ground to a halt in anticipation of a nailbiliting outcome that could have seen the exit of Greece from the Euro and the gradual, at first, collapse of the artificial European political union. It was this vote, which saw the hardline socialist, "anti-bailout" Syriza lose by the smallest of margins, that led the surge in peripheral yields to record highs in the weeks following, and was the catalyst for Draghi's infamous "whatever it takes" speech in July 2012, which culminated last week with the launch of the ECB's Q€.
Today, Greece votes again in an election that came to be after the now deeply unpopular Prime Minister failed to muster enough support for his presidential candidate, and here, courtesy of @damomac, is a sampling of the nearly 20 "choices" the Greek long-suffering population is presented with.
What is at stake for Greece today? Largely the same things as in 2012, which means an appropriate question is what is at stake for Europe. The answer: a lot, because suddenly the fate of the European monetary union is in the hands of some 9.8 million eligible to vote Greeks: something the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels had hoped to avoid in perpetuity. And with the leading candidate on war footing with Brussels (if only for the time being) the next few days in Europe will be quite interesting: "In Greece, democracy will return," the party's 40-year-old leader Alexis Tsipras told a throng of cameras as he voted in Athens. "The message is that our common future in Europe is not the future of austerity."
Here is a quick summary of the day's events from Deutsche Welle:
Greek voters are going to the polls in an election that is being closely watched all over the EU. The vote could result in a party taking power that wants to renegotiate the terms of Greece's international bailout.
Opinion polls, published on Friday, the last day of the election campaign, gave the far left, anti-austerity Syriza party, led by 40-year-old Alexis Tsipras a clear lead over the governing conservative New Democracy party, led by Prime Minister Antonis Samaras.
Nine separate polls gave Syriza a lead of anywhere from 2.8 percent over New Democracy, but they also indicated that around 10 percent of Greece's nearly 10 million eligible voters remained undecided.
As voters cast their ballots this Sunday, they will be presented with a clear choice; to place their faith in the painful austerity measures introduced by Samaras' government to comply with the terms of Greece's international bailout and fix the country's finances long-term - or to hitch their wagon to Tsipras' promises to roll back the austerity measures and negotiate more favorable terms.
In his final appeal to the voters on Friday, Samaras urged Greeks to reelect his government, saying it sould be crazy to take a chance on Syriza just when the austerity measures he introduced could be about to pay off.
"Syriza will turn all of Europe against Greece.... They don't understand Europe, they don't believe in Europe," Samaras said at a campaign rally in Athens. However, with an unemployment rate of 25 percent, it is no secret that this is a tough sell.
For his part, Tsipras said he planned to restore Greece's dignity by rolling back public sector layoffs, pay and pension cuts, and getting the country's creditors to write off much of its public debt.
What remains unclear is whether, if elected, he will be able to deliver on these promises. Critics have also warned that trying to renegotiate the terms of Greece's bailout with the European Union, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund, could lead the "Grexit" scenario, in which the country would wind up leaving the eurozone. Syriza has said that it wants Greece to remain in the eurozone, and on Friday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, seen by many Greeks as the driving force behind the tough terms of the bailout, expressed a similar sentiment.
"At the heart of our principles lies solidarity. I want Greece, despite the difficulties, to remain part of our story," Merkel said.
While Tsipras promises the unachievable, the population - eager to take a chance on anyone - will likely believe him. As Reuters reports, Tsipras' campaign slogan "Hope is coming!" has resonated with austerity-weary voters, despite Samaras' warnings that a Syriza government could bankrupt Greece.
"We are voting for Alexis Tsipras to put an end to this misery," said Stavroula Gourdourou, an unemployed mother who voted for the ruling conservatives in 2012. "Enough is enough! We won't let them destroy our children."
Which is also why Syriza's victory is assured. The only question is how big the majority will be and whether Syriza will have an absolute majority.
Which means that the fate of Greece will not be in the hands of the big parties, but in the small ones, with the question being how many pass the critical 3% threshold and whether enough do to prevent Syriza from getting an outright majority in parliament.
Ironically, it may be up to that veteran of Greek politics, George Papandreou, and his new KDS party, to determine if Syriza gets an absolute majority: something which will be unlikely if KDS crosses the 3% threshold.
#Papandreou bracht zijn stem uit in de Atheense wijk
Néa Erythraía. Beduidend minder pers pic.twitter.com/Od5cxwhayv
— Frederiek Lommen (@frederieklommen) January 25, 2015
Here is Macropolis' explanation of why the "also ran" parties are crucial this time around: "This time round, a total of 22 parties (including four coalitions) are running in the election. Assuming that seven of them will make it into parliament (Syriza, New Democracy, Potami, KKE, Pasok, Independent Greeks and Golden Dawn), recent opinion polls suggest that the “also rans” could take anything from 5 to 8 percent. Or even more. Pushing up the figure will be the share of the vote taken by former prime minister George Papandreou’s Movement of Democratic Socialists, leftwing antiausterity ANTARSYA, nationalist LAOS, and Democratic Left, all of which are not expected to make it into parliament."
More:
When the counting of votes gets underway in Greece’s election on Sunday night, most eyes will be focused on election favourite Syriza’s tally to see if the leftist party stands a chance of gaining an overall majority in the new parliament. But under the Greek electoral system, determining whether the biggest party achieves an overall majority just doesn’t depend on its share of the vote, as important as that may be. One of the quirks of the system is that a host of other parties also play a major role in whether the main party gets to rule alone or not.
The political equivalent of the “also rans” in horseracing, these are the parties that fail to clear the three percent hurdle to enter parliament. The aggregate of the “also rans” is always important because if the percentage gained by these small parties totals 5 percent, for example, the winning party would need 38.4 percent to take 151 seats. If the total support for parties not entering Parliament reaches 10 percent, the threshold for the victorious party falls to 36.4.
The other words: the higher the share of the “also rans”, the easier it is for the poll-topping party to form a single-party government and avoid a coalition.
While some of these parties are familiar, like the far-right LAOS party that was in parliament until 2012, most are so obscure that only hardened political anoraks will have never heard of them, like numerous groups sporting the word “communist” in their title or the fantastically named perennial contestant run by a farmer in northern Greece called “Independent Innovative Left, Renewed Right, Renewed PASOK, Renewed New Democracy, No to War, Party of Business ‘I Give Away Land, I Give Away Debts, I Save Lives,’ Panagriarian Workers Movement of Greece”.
As previous results show, these parties are neither are they small in number, nor are the percentages they receive anything to be scoffed at.
In the first of the elections in 2012, for example, a record 25 “also rans” won a staggering 1.2 million votes, or some 19 percent of the total. Taken together, that made them more successful than New Democracy, which took 1.19 million votes (18.85 percent).
In the second election in June, the 15 of them who could afford to run again took 368,277 votes, or almost 6 percent. That was more than the communist KKE received and just less than Democratic Left, which won 17 seats.
And then there is of course also the question of just how "hard line" Tsipras really is: assuming he does get an absolute majority, will he dare to end the gravy train of handouts, as meager as they may have been, from Germany and Brussels over the past 6 years just to risk returning to the Drahcma, and even more pain, if only for the next 6-12 months as Greece has its long-overdue external adjustment which would also allow Greece to finally return to growth but only after the very painful preliminary period. A period that would be even more painful for the rest of Europe as one after another peripheral nation, also drowning in unemployment, decides to take the Greek route?
According to Reuters, despite all the bluster and rhetoric, Tsipras will most likely just continue the same Euro-directed show and dance.
Renouncing much of the firebrand rhetoric that was once his hallmark, Tsipras has promised to keep Greece in the euro and dropped threats to "tear up" the tough requirements of its 240 billion euro bailout.
He has promised to renegotiate a deal with the European Commission, ECB and International Monetary Fund "troika" and write off much of Greece's 320 billion-euro debt, despite clear signs from partners including Germany that they would refuse.
At the same time, he wants to raise the minimum wage, cut power prices for low income families, cut taxes and reverse pension and public sector pay cuts.
We shall have the answers soon: the first exit polls hit at 7pm local Time (noon Eastern) with the first official projections due out just over two hours later, at 9:30pm local. Once available, the official results will be updated in real-time on the following map.
We will provide updates during this historic for Greece and the Eurozone day, but in the meantime, here are some additional notable comments from twitter.
Proto Thema: "Fasten your seat belts"
#Greece #ekloges2015 pic.twitter.com/Rb4kohZs5R
— Derek Gatopoulos (@dgatopoulos) January 24, 2015
Stalinists, Maoists and Trots: the hammer and sickle options. #ekloges2015 #Greece #greeceElections pic.twitter.com/5UJTWur7PL
— Damian Mac Con Uladh (@damomac) January 25, 2015
??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????!?? ???????????? ?????????.???? ????????;????? ????! pic.twitter.com/OlkS5k9Pcm
— Costanza (@adamspectern) January 24, 2015
??????? ?????????? ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?????????.
???? via luben pic.twitter.com/MdyU3caxFZ
— Sofia Lampiki (@SofiaLampiki) January 23, 2015
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If Syriza follows their plan, how long before a coup? A week? Exit polls say Syriza has 40%...
They'll win... and then sell themselves out to Brussels. Greek folks gets screwed anyhow, anyway.
Or sell out to Russia!
Ya never know the way things are going..
"The answer, as of this moment, is in the hands of some 9.8 million eligible to vote Greeks..."
hahahahahahahaaaa
We "Diebold" some folks
Give me control of counting of the votes and I care not who shows up to the polls - Some Bankster.
Greece uses paper ballots, classic old style. perhaps instead of assuming Diebold in Greece, you could ask for a Greek-style electoral system in your country
ask your congressman or whatever similar you have. they'll give you very interesting responses, I'm sure of that
here in estonia, we can vote via internet. i shit you not. last election's electronic database was ordered to be deleted by the government as the opposition started to question the results, while the paper ballots are kept forever. how about that?
exactly.....so why waste a keystroke on it........all decided for you
Anyone thinking that EU/US would allow Syriza to win needs to visit a shrink ...
I wonder if the EU also uses Diebolt machines to count votes...
Desperate times breed desperate measures. Sort of how Germany ended up with a Hitler.
<Dupe>
Victoria Nuland's pick is really the only one that matters.
Didn't you know? You have to delete the results of electronic elections. If you kept them, results could be hacked, and a false claim could be made POST election. Deleting the results is good.
Unless in future they were stored on the block chain.
Paper ballot elections were rigged all the time in Northern New Mexico. They'd just vote for people who didn't vote, and dead people would vote. It ran (and probably still does, to an extent,) on a patron system. You want election security? You have to make multiple redundancies so that 4 or 5 seperate things need to be cheated simultaneously.
I still love how people call this shit austerity. They have been going deeper and deeper into debt every single year, just like every other fucking country in the EU , and they have the nerve to call it fucking austerity. If it was austerity, they would be spending less than they took in. This is bullshit. I kinda hope these lefties win and speed up the demise of the euro currency and the EU, as that would help all the European people out, but let's thing about what these people are promises by an end to (fake) austerity: that they will start spending more and more money, which either must be borrowed or printed, which will drive them more into debt, which will eat up more and more of their tax revenues, dragging the economy down even further. Same as it always happens, until they just default on everything or hyperinflate. What I haven't heard is a candidate or party in Greece telling people that it isn't the proper role of govt to manage the entire economy or take care of people from cradle to grave, and that by trying to do so, the govt has grown into a bloated monstrosity that is the cause of all this. Therefore the solution is to DRASTICALLY reduce the size of govt. Is there such a party or candidate in Greece? Or all they all just different forms of welfare statists?
at least the Greeks have 20 choices. In the US it's 2 (and there's not much difference between them)
20 choices between a bunch of scumbag nazis, commies, and the vampire squids?
Thats like getting to vote for which caliber weapon you want to be executed with.
so you prefer the choice to be restricted to two by two mainstream parties only? do you call independents in America "a bunch of scumbag nazis, commies, and the vampire squids", too?
in Greece, all parties have the same status as independents have in America. and every and each one can face failure, and be voted out of parliament. think for a moment about this detail
In the US, we only have two choices, even with the independants, at least on the national level.
Choice 1: Politicians who have been bought out by major corporate interests.
Choice 2: Politicians who will be bought out by major corporate interests.
Having 2 or 5 or 20 parties isn't going to fix that.
You can make all the independent parties you want in the US. Good luck getting around the law and actually making it onto the ballot.
In America we have one party, "the filthy rich scumbag party". Just look at billionaire scumbag Michael Bloomberg the Democrat Independent Republican, what a crock of fucking shit that guy is. Money wins every election in America. In American Elections we have candidates with 10% approval ratings that get re-elected 90% of the time. What the fuck is that people. When we fix that little problem maybe then we can waste some of our time talking shit about how other peoples elections work and who they vote for.
"It's all them other congresscritters, not mine! Mine is good!"
In the US, oligarchs figured out that, so long as some minimum amount of pork goes to the homestate, they can rig the candidates themselves.
@Ghordius
I don't prefer 99% of the sociopaths who want to rule over me in America either. I don't vote for any of them. I don't fall for the false Right vs Left paradigm that's been set up to divide our country along bullshit party lines.
I have written in my own Libertarian/Constiutionally Conservative candidates before for president and I vote in local elections sometimes if someone seems not to be a fucking psychopath and might actually try to do something right. But that's very rare.
I voted "against" obama but that proved to be futal for our country as well. Too many sheep-tards wanting to join the FSA. That stands for Free Shit Army...you know...the same kinds of losers that Europe is now plagued with. Gimmee gimmee gimmee and let's all go on vacation. Idiots.
Nearly everyone all over the entire world who runs for some kind of office are all usually totally morally and ethically corrupt to the core and just want to rule other people's lives while enriching their own and grabbing whatever power they can. Fuck 'em all.
I read that article yesterday about Greek women doctors having to become prostitutes to make money and one part really stood out. The part where the 30 something's were whining that they couldn't afford to shop or party or go on vacation anymore. That they just want a better future so that they could "go on vacation". What a bunch of fucking idiots.
Looks like the exit polls are showing that the commie scumbags are winning in Greece.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_ELECTION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-01-25-12-09-15
Yep...good luck with that, Greece. You're gonna need it.
Yeah right. Remember Varoufakis? Well he is running for MP with Syriza. He was also employed and funded by the George Soros Foundation. Get it? Good.
Actually something remarkable is cookin'....Moon & Uranus in conjunction the last 8 hrs, and for the next 8 (always good for people feeling shit-upon) and Sun + 4 planets bunched up at less than 30 degrees (indicates strong feelings for change--"our way"). So look for some serious iconoclastic collectivism, with a return to Greece's maritime "roots". Could be fun, for them, not the E.U.
A planetary gangbang cannot ruin this disaster
This is my guess.
YOU GOT IT. Politicians all over are just about TALK. NOTHING fundamental will change because the Giant Vampire Squid will not allow it. We all have to remember that the entire world is now run by Plutocracies.
YOU GOT IT. Politicians all over are just about TALK. NOTHING fundamental will change because the Giant Vampire Squid will not allow it. We all have to remember that the entire world is now run by Plutocracies.
Syriza will do a 180 by midnight if they even suspect they are close to winning this.
"whatever it takes" to control the outcome-more drama, and he is different?
if elected and the pile of money will be sitting on the table, he has to ask himself only one question? do i take it? he is a politician, so yes he will slide the pile to his side and start the process of doublespeak. the greeks will once again be fucked by a politician that caves to self interest and the people will go back to trying to survive on an ever shrinking economy.
The Greeks are hosed if he is genuine. The Greeks are hosed if he is a sellout. The Greeks are just hosed period.
Syriza's intellectual leaders are a bunch of commie and progressive ivory tower economists, some from very wealthy oligarchic families:
https://translate.google.ch/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=...
smells like controlled opposition.
Add on to that Greek bonds are not part of the ECB QE program and you get the picture: Greece is gonna leave the Euro soon and Syriza will orchestrate the move. The EU governments already know it. Thats why Syriza is allowed to win now. Germany said they are prepared for a Grexit as well.
Controlled or not, the Greek people aren't going to get what they think they're going to get. Greece has no good options, period.
Greece is a shit sandwhich. Eventually it will be digested and come out, you guessed it Shit again
This is like a bad nightmare that never ends, get it over with already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGYaFMFU63U
The Eurocrats will instigate yet another terrorist event to keep Greece in line and provide a distraction. I hope by now everyone knows that these "terrorist" events are sponsored by the bankers and the government.
"We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."
Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17th, l950
Socrates was forced to drink hemlock. There is nothing new under the sun in Greece. Truth and knowledge are poisoned. Lets get Syriza now? This might turn into a polonium milkshake.
Truth and Knowledge survived Socrates's death.
You are alluding to the OPPOSITE of what happened.
Its Socrates's legacy that CREATED western civilization.
But polonium milkshake remains true as truth and knowledge are not enuff to fight human nature's "natural" penchants.
We never learn even as we learn more and more. Its a case of a leaking barrel.
Some paradox.
Maybe you should copyright "polonium milkshake" and become an Oligarch.
Observers are already announcing exit polls showing Syriza with a percentage win large enough to form govt:
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150125/1017332424.html
Signs of resistance against the neoliberal catastrophe in Europe
Fuck the trioka!
I agree with the Arrowflinger. SYRIZA is one more part of the chain leading Greece to its demise and utter destruction,
Syriza reminds me of Obama's first election run. Hope, Change and at the end of the charade, bullshit in a glass.
The journey will be difficult. The road will be long. I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. But I also face it with limitless faith in the capacity of the American people. Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth. This was the moment - this was the time - when we came together to remake this great nation so that it may always reflect our very best selves, and our highest ideals.
What drugs are you taking, and were can I find some for myself.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+1 lol
At least Syriza would represent an overt rather than covert takeover by bureaucrats.
When things get Syriza, you gotta die!
I wonder how many of these small parties are fronts, used to siphon off votes and keep out a majority govt?
Funded by pedophile bankers who use it as a clever cover to go around kissing babies.
I will be very happy if Syriza investigates thoroughly all parliamentarians and how they amassed their wealth.
At least the people of Greece will be given some satisfaction before being screwed by the next puppet.
optimist!
Omertà aka honour among thieves
"2012 (...) a nailbiliting outcome that could have seen the exit of Greece from the Euro and the gradual, at first, collapse of the artificial European political union "
ah, what a myth this has become. as always based on the assumption that the monetary alliance is federalist, and that it's as federalist as the trading/regulatory alliance's main promotors, and that all this is just something that has to become "like the proper unions", i.e. the United States and the United Kingdom
lots and lots of projection going on in the English-speaking world, particularly on domestic issues that are projected on foreign situation with an eye on own domestic political narratives
I'll just reply with this:
Fuck the EMZ.
Who's counting the votes?
Liebold
it's a paper ballot, classic style, with representatives of all parties and external monitors watching all the time. if you know how to tamper such a ballot, please explain
Yep...they're all fucked
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Kinda like the Scottish vote...
Stuffing ballot boxes and voting, often by voting people who normally don't vote. Having dead people vote is also another option. It used to happen in my state all the time.
don't forget "hanging chads", gerrymandering,
and restrictions on voter eligibility (e.g. no "felony" record, onerous registration requirements, onerous voting procedures in selected areas such as few booths with very long queues).
(of course, there are MANY other means to affect outcomes, such as buying votes, physically threatening voters at home and booths, restrictions on media access both economic and other, and restrictive laws on free speech especially about criticism of government or royalty).
"Who's counting the votes?"
Florida
Not if the Supine Court has anything to say about it !!
Is Nuland behind Syriza? How is NATO allowing a purely Democratic process?
hotrod... NATO? Nuland does not work for NATO. NATO is what happens to be called after a Nuland has done a "sterling job"
NATO as such is a military defense alliance. A club of sovereigns where each member promises to come to the defense of the others if attacked. And a big military bazaar, too
what Nuland wanted is to get Ukraine into the NATO club as fast as possible, and so make Russia clear that the whole of Ukraine would be off limits for him
I'm trying to explain this because there is no shred of evidence that most commentators of ZH noticed that nearly all the other NATO partners were against this plan
My sarcasm was really about this election being "window dressing" more than substance and that little will accomplished yet the Greeks will be made to feel like they won. Throw em a bone. Seems like we were sold a similar bill of goods with Obama's hope and change.
To your point I think NATO is more than a military alliance. It is US political cotrol.
And yet NATO appears to support this Ukraine intervention. What are your thoughts on who really controls NATO and whether it is a worthwhile institution given it's political support for policies the majority of european nations are against? I ask because I'm interested, not because I'm staking out a position on this question.
Ukrainian Army is a main distributor of military hardware to the Army of Novorossia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=9won...
A video report on the Donbass defense industries.
A "shred of evidence" of NATO military expansion against Russia is the NATO expansion towards Russia itself. 'nough said...
I'm changing my name to Greece so that countries will loan me billions of dollars then happily let me default on my payments after I spend it all on hookers, booze, and vote buying. Of course I'll keep half of it for my future spending "needs," stashing that portion where Corzine, Reid, Clinton, Pelosi, et al stash their wealth.
Just call me Greecy A. Cracker.
Greecy,
I will loan you money I know you will never be able to pay back. But in exchange you are going to have to buy some fighter jets and other military equipment you don't need, and cannot afford to maintain, so that my cronies back home can build some planes and "make" some of this money I am "loaning" you.
I make jobz bitchez!
"in the hands of some 9.8 million eligible to vote"
Horseshit. The machines counting will decide.
They'll win, and the backsliding will start instantly,
I hope I'm wrong, but, looking at the body language on Tsipras this morning, well, he doesn't look like a man ready to fight to me,
"We are voting for Alexis Tsipras to put an end to this misery," said Stavroula Gourdourou, an unemployed mother who voted for the ruling conservatives in 2012. "
This attitude is what will seal the fate of Greece; that voting for one or another talking-head (i.e. Democracy) will result in the end to their misery. You would think that the people of a country as hoary and seasoned as Greece would have learned the concept of controlled opposition by now. Unofrtunately it looks as if the Greek ethos has been broken, in the process producing a sea of desperate souls like Stavroula above, who grasp in vain for their next promised savior. Drachma weeps.
Y'all still think voting matters!? Ah ha ha ha... Funny little sheep still being sheared.
Yes, PLEASE don't vote. It is a complete waste of your time (yes, you specifically).
(Thank God... One less of nut-job voting...)
Your name suits you. And you make my point quite well. Just another belligerent mouth breather.
Thank you for the compliment.
And thank you for not voting.
"Mouth breather." Ahhh... the finest "arguments" from the brilliant/enlightened ones are... wait for it... name calling. "Oh, yeah... you're stooopid." LOL! Thanks for that.
Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT Lets print some FIAT
All politicians (world wide) are zebras with slightly different strips. The one thing they all have in common is that they love the con job.
The very best liars stay on top for decades.
Greece’s Aegean Marine Petroleum Starting Operations in Russia
Egypt, Greece and Cyprus Pledge Energy Cooperation
Greece To Be An Important Player In E.U. Gas Market
I would not be surprised if Russia is behind the scene making a very compelling offer to whomever wins this vote. The Eurasia trade union will begin to take shape shortly, much to the chagrin of the US/UK alliance. Still waiting to see what Germany decides to do in the face of the Fuck You it got from Draghi last week. Wouldn't be surprised to see Germany start unwinding Russia sanctions and blowing kisses to Putin.
We were privaliged to get a visit from Madame Lagarde earlier this week, she praised the Irish people for struggling on bravely through all the taxes and cuts, even called us "heroes",
Literally, as she was standing beside our village idiot PM, speaking these words of praise, she was holding a Hermes handbain which costs €7,000......
Animal Farmesque so it was....
These people that deem themselves Guardians of Financial Gomorrah should be lynched.
Handbag,
Site won't let me edit, the hamsters have been in the servers again,
I bet she's against lether handbags with her skin. She's probably scared that somebody would want to pass her skin off as a crocodile handbag.
That is a fckn horrendously insulting thing to say.....
Why do you hate crocodiles so much...?
Can't argue with over 50 Million years of evolutionary success! :>D
In an interview on CNN i heard Lagarde say "that it even wasn't possible for a country to leave the EU/EMU because of the association agreement"
Early demention ?
I hope that was not lost on the Irish people!
Greeks will do the right thing. However, will the NAZI/CIA/Bush-NWO hand-selected ballot counters do the right thing? That is the $54 question.
since ND and SYRIZA voters both want Greece to stay in the Euro, there really is no hope for that country. They will have to eat austerity because that is what the Euro Fuhrers in Frankfurt & Brussels want!
If we all remember Greece was to be the banker's experiment all nations were to follow. In the beginning the question was whether the Greeks would revolt or leave the Euro zone. So today we get more results from the Greek laboratory
This chaos might help in accelerating the Euro's lead in the race down the staircase :
http://goo.gl/yDDXCo
The Euro is clearly in the lead now at a bit over -18% from Jan 2014. I have concluded that dealing with fiscal deficits ala Greece comes down to the following 3 choices:
1) Feed the Monster
2) Put the Monster on a diet, aka "Austerity" aka "Living within your means" (The last one dates me)
3) Disown the Monster
Where the Monster is the political class the promises everything, pays for everything with debt, and is surprised when there are budgetary constraints - hard to find nowadays at NZIRP.
What is ahead : the French call it - Écraser le champignon - Pedal to the Metal!!
Help me understand.
Why does Germany - or any other country in the EU care if Greece stays or goes?
Neither Germany nor any other country gives a rat's ass if Greece stays or goes. EXCEPT what the adverse effect maybe on themselves. The Greek people are the last item on their "worry list".
If Greece goes, it sets a precedent for all of them to go. It is drawing a road map for "how" to leave. The legalities will get worked out on them. There are no processes for leaving in place right now.
If Greece goes and their situation improves, others will want to go so that they too can improve.
If Greece leaves, they openly default on their debt and start fresh. Folks who think they owe them money will be pissed to not get paid.
If Greece leaves, and bankers don't get paid, the places in the financial system that expect to get paid may well have to suffer their own defaults, and margin calls will go out all over the world.
As those margin calls go out, people will sell assets to cover, sending certain asset classes into a deflationary spiral.
Folks who have bought CDSs on this shit will look for payouts. We will see if the lying motherfuckers who sold this insurance, have what it takes to cover such an event, or will they be forced to default.
Under pinning this whole thing is the question of "faith" in the system. When it becomes exposed how things really work (for instance the companies selling CDS just go bankrupt instead of paying out [and then we get an honest look at their books]), people will stop believing in it and perhaps withdraw their support.
This is a potential catalyst for the collapse of the entire financial system.
Lot of folks, like banksters, don't want to see that, just yet. And so the "leaders" try to keep folks in the union, claiming they plan to pay their debts, which they can't, so that no one else has to do anything for now. And those who have portfolios dependent on this definition of the situation can go on pretending they have wealth.
Greece leaving could be a domino that leads the world away from centralization and towards localization.
Excellent!
I hope to God they do. Seems symbolic, Greece being one of the birthplaces of democracy doesn't it.
Americans should take a real good look at the suffering of Greece, they're on the banker hit list also. The depravity of these psychopaths knows no bounds.
The third largest party in Greece is Golden Dawn; receiving 12% of the vote in the last election and is the only true opposition party. Its leader has been in prison for 18 months by the democratic regime without substantial charge.
The article mentions Golden Dawn only once at the end of a list of minor parties and the swastika montage at the end twitter (look close).
The Greek people were sold into debt slavery by their criminal ruling class and the central banking plutocrats. Sound familiar?
So the choise is either left communists or right nazi?
Polls close at 7 (12EST)
I ordered some metal today. Curious to see what will happen with gold and the eur...
Whatever happens in the elections, one thing is for sure: The greek people will be consigned as mere witnesses and victims to what follows. The real question is how the possible continuing drama or even an exit out of the monetary union (Somehow quite doubtful about their political union exit) will mesh with the State Dept's plans to "fuck the EU" even more than it has to increase social disintegration and enmity towards Russia in the region.
Another thing, which idiots are holding the bag on Greek debt derivatives? That is to say, who have been selling Greek CDS? If the TBTF banks have managed to offload them onto counterparties (indemnifiers) anywhere outside Wall St, then we might see banks/insurance in surprising countries collapse if Greece is allowed to exit the euro. If the TBTF banks still hold interest as counterparties (I think they still do at this time), then no amount of political will in Greece is ever going to be able to oppose the will of the Troika. Syriza could win all the seats, demand to exit the euro and that will shortly be followed by a military coup or a collective nailgun incident.
Most of the Greek CDS have probably been sold by the Greek banks themselves - they'll definitely blow up if Greece exits. The thing is, NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS who have been selling Greek CDS. AIG or JPM might be the biggest sellers but we won't know it. What we do know is that exposure to Greek banks by countries in the EU is high. There are Irish, Portugese, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Netherland, Belgium and Austrian banks with claims on Greece, but the biggest one is France. Credit Agricole owns Emporiki, and Societe Generale has stakes in Geniki Bank and Hellas Finance. (Source: FT from 4 yrs ago). The US appears to be the fourth largest claimant to greek debt.
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we're all fucked by the NSA, MSM, GCHQ, The Fed, its subscribed private banks and the dual national oligarchs with their fingers in every Davos hotdog. Sadly, the Greeks are not going to be exceptional to this state of affairs.
Wrong. Financial exposure to Greece is small. French banks sold their stakes in Greek banks too. Also Greek banks don't have squat to play with or to put up for margin in CDS's.
The real "exposure" problem is political. If Greece leaves then we open a can of worms in the EZ, with other countries likely to join. If Greece is given better terms to stay (most likely) then other countries will demand the same.
I made sure to put it in bold, but obviously that wasn't enough. I'm not referring to who has bought CDS on margin, I am referring to who has SOLD Greek CDS. Remember that this type of insurance does not need you to be a holder of greek bonds and therefore could have been sold in multiples of the debt itself. But thanks for the update with the French banks.
As for the political problems in the EZ, that is pretty much a given. Better terms to stay? Germany made it pretty clear that they were tired of bailing them out years ago. I can't see it happening, but you might be right.
"If Greece is given better terms to stay (most likely) then other countries will demand the same."
So in effect, the EZ is F*cked either way you cut it!
the ECB owns most of the greek national debt, purchased from the German and French banks that made infrastructure loans to Greece since 1999 or so.
Projected revenues from these projects have not yet materialized and won't until there is a very large increase in the Greek population or inward toursim to the mainalnd.
remember the Olympics? net cost of 6 billion up to 2004, plus the same in maintenance and interest bills since. just one example, others are train stations and military purchases.
i am a little curious as to how much in reparations the Greeks should have received seventy years ago, post WW 2. Successive occupying forces stripped national treasures that might be worth several billion or even up to 20 billion in todays Christies record breaking prices.
Not just reparations but A FORCED LOAN with Adolph's own signature. That is VERY CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE, 162 BILLION Euros.
Reparations are another thing.
Never paid, excuse was that, until the 2 Germanies were united they were going to get FUCK ALL. The "Friends" (USA and England) were lent on Greece, to let go of the demand.
The total could be anything up to 550 - 600 Billions of Euros.
The Old German Colloborators were still in charge AFTER THE WAR, with the SUPPORT of the ALLIES.
Benoit Coeure at Davos.
"With low growth, entrenched unemployment - people being dragged out of the labour market - we are seeing the whole political foundation of the European project being weakened. This cannot last for too long,"
I disagree, it can't go fast enough !
Without all the bail-outs, the Greeks will now have to go to work - bummer
50,000,000 Americans should also face this dilemma!
Well, 3 of those hapless 50,000,000 Americans just downvoted you!
About 100,000,000 people recieve money from the government or in other benifits. I figure that half could be eliminated through means testing, citizenship checks, address checks, live body counts, drug testing, single parent status etc - some might appear harsh but when the country is broke, this may be the only path.
homebody
there may be a shortage of available jobs,
so first there will have to be a law that employers must hire "anybody" who applies.
(of course there is always a revived CCC option)
I call BS! Free shit did not build this country - hard work, innovation, adaptation, responsibility, - and on and on
Civil strike will not originate with the moral, and ethical hard working population.
"did not build this country"... Yes that right, at a time robotization did not exist and demographics were expanding. I'm not sure services can entirely replace everything lost... we'll know soon...
Greece has less det than Illinois and the US is far worse than Europe in debt to GDP terms
for shit and giggles and yawning, scratching my ass and stretching, I am pondering the questions (ignoring relative QE):
does anyone have a good way of comparing a European state and a US one (or US cities for that matter)
is the US more or less indebted than Europe and is that a measure of "success"?
is a US state comparable to Greece?
takes a few minutes of surfing to start to get "stuck in the headlights" of the complete lack of accountability of anyone for their lives and awareness of facts in constructive debate, but here is what made the eyes glaze over.
Two key (bleary eyed and none too deep) conclusions.
1. The US is far worse off than Europe from a debt perspective. So a fedrated Europe would be a bad idea (it gets hijacked by even more lack of accountability that is painfully prevalent in the US).
2. Greece has half the debt of, say, Illinois, so people who live in glass houses should not throw stones!
Background websites on which this none-too-deep surf is based on.
http://www.eudebtclock.org/
Now you have to caveat these numbers as they could be complete BS, but at least it's a start.
The US owes 30% more at the Federal level than the sum of the (currency adjusted) sum of European parts. On a per capita basis the US owes $65,500 v $28,000 for Europe (and $80,000 in Japan). So the US is more than twice as indebted on a per capita basis than Europe (and Japan's economic windshield is getting bigger and bigger looking for that bug).
Illinois seems closest to Greece in population terms, though its debt needs to be adjusted for its share of US Federal debt (as could each European countries debt be adjusted up to its non-existent European Federal level).
Greece has c. $350 billion of debt (adjusted for dollars per Euro FX) v Illinois's number of $161 illion before its share of US Federal debt ( from here http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-illinois-debt-cloc...).
Ilinois has about 4% of the US population with 12.9 million people out of 312.9 million in the entire US. US national det is 17.8 trillion = US$730 billion
Add the $161 billion of Illinois state debt to its share of the US national debt of $730 billion and you come to $891 billion.
Now compare this to Greek national debt of $350 billion and the howling, screaming and finger pointing against Greece's parlous position and you have a different perspective.
No country, state, or city should be in debt - responsible government also requires that they must say no to some spending.
Illinois national debt per capita = $68,800, Greek national debt per capita = $32,963
another source i forgot to put on the post.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population
seems ridiculous to me that we can't just look for what is being done right, rather than saying "look at those stupid Europeans and those poor Greeks"
I wonder how many Germans and US students are pole dancing and whoring to pay for their education. I know even less about Japan, but if we need examples of Givernments that work, saying Europe's doesn't rather impies that the US has a better system when it obviosuly doesn't.
It has kicked the can down the road but the can is getting bigger at a faster rate than Europe's (Japan's is bigger than both?)
Of course debt is not the only metric. Quality of cars, foodand water or cost of power might be others, since economics is such a dismal art (not a science).
See my post with reference to Richard Duncan, above. The short answer: NOBODY has it right, and we've morphed from capitalism to "debtism".
IMO, even a government that starts off well intentioned will morph into a parasitic, corrupt oppressive entity, given enough time. My other belief that goes along with that is that, given enough people in an area and given enough time, there will be a government that arises. There are too many greedy fucks, too many control freaks and too many sheep.
Don't forget about the taxes.
The poster "homebody" is correct. Your premise is wrong as all fiat currencies and their associated governments eventually fail. There is no historical prescident for any other outcome.
Let me suggest Richard Duncan's presentation: "How Capitalism Died And Where that Leaves Us"
http://vimeo.com/user20236372/review/101487179/54bf993e5d
He explains the situation brilliantly, although I have my doubts that his (very original) 5 Trillion spending plan (near the end) would work due to government malfeasance and malinvestment.
Cheers!
Apple's and oranges, Europe is not a country, the US is,
Anyway, who's worse is irrelevant, when you're this far underwater, the exact depth don't matter, you're still gonna drown,
yep, yep yep yep.
end of the money age, just like the stone age morphed into the bronze age, the iron age and military age (parthian, greek, roman, viking, mongol, British, American), then the industrial and internet revolutions.
i wonder what bastages living in those bygone ages (ex the internet as we are thinking it now) were thinking during sunset periods without knowing what came next. I am thinking they could give two shits about debt!
I'm thinking that most probably didn't realize that they were in decline, had been for some time and that the end was near. The end of the bronze age may be different, as we're not really sure what the actual cause of its end was. There are a lot of references to some mysterious "sea people" who messed things up, but it is believed that, whatever the cause, the bronze age ended because the tin trade was shut down somehow for some reason. Did this happen over a period of a few years, or over several decades? Maybe some historian who studied antiquity can chime in here. Oddly enough, it was probably the lack of tin that led smiths to experiment with iron as an alternative to bronze.
+1
Haven't checked the maths (I've got a headache :)) But I think that's a fine analogy and a unique perspective to put on the situation. Kudos.
A Syriza government in Greece
After five years of extreme austerity prescribed to treat an epidemic of debt, a battered but defiant Greece appeared poised Sunday to reject the medicine. With millions of voters turning out from graffiti-scarred lanes in the Parthenon’s shadow…
latest:
http://tersee.com/#!q=greece&t=text
So let's vote for the far left anti-austerity party... ROTFLMAO.
Isn't spending above ones means the very thing that got Greece into this problem in the first place? Not to mention just about every other country on the planet. People will always vote for the easy way out rather than work towards an actual solvent future.
Careful - the basement dwelling, welfare sucking trolls will down vote you for being so heartless.
I'd worry less about down voting trolls and more about being branded as mentally ill for daring to have an honest opinion.
The "Free shit" party always wins the election...same as it ever was!
and the more they spend, the sooner this fckn nightmare will reach its inevitable conclusion,
Moar mad lefties I say, moar, the more extreme the fckn better,
Turnips for everyone...:)
I always thought (still do) - that free shit to the free shit army ends -
when they run out of other people's money (OPM).
It appears to me that Greece has in fact run out of OPM.
How will they pay for all of the unicorns being promised?
You get hungry enough, and Unicorn steaks sound like nouvelle cuisine! :>D
I'm still long Greek donkey carts
Whatever happened to all those greek farm animal jokes anyway? I guess after the net was plastered over with videos of Muslims having at it with sheep, goats, and donkeys, the Greeks got a reprieve.
Gas Pipeline, Ports for Russia & China & no food santions"Leverage"
Greek PM concedes election defeat to Syriza
We'll see if anything changes. I hope it does. Although loading up on debt is stupid, the fact that Greece needs austerity measures to stay in the EU, while Germany does fine and without austerity, is equally as dumb.
Putin regime terrorists attacks Mariupol civilians, killing 30 (incuding 2 children) - their leader announced attack here: http://youtu.be/1S1YdZRZQOk and OSCE confirms that GRAD rockets where fired from DNR terrorist controled teritory:This report is provided for the media and general public. At approximately 09:15hrs on 24 January, the SMM in government-controlled Mariupol heard at its location incoming massed Multi-Launch Rocket System (MLRS) attacks from a north-east direction, consisting of an extremely heavy barrage lasting 35 seconds. Twenty minutes later the SMM received information from the Joint Centre for Control and Co-ordination (JCCC) in Mariupol and other sources, that shelling had occurred in the area of Olimpiiska Street, in Ordzhonikidzevskyi district, 8.5 km north-east of Mariupol city centre, approximately 400 metres from a Ukrainian Armed Forces checkpoint. At 10:20hrs the SMM went to Olimpiiska Street and saw seven adult civilians dead. The SMM observed in an area of 1.6 km by 1.1 km, including an open market, multiple impacts on buildings, retail shops, homes and a school. The SMM observed cars on fire and windows facing the north-eastern side of a nine-storey building shattered. The SMM was able to count 19 rocket strikes and is certain there are more. Four hospitals and the emergency service in the city informed the SMM that at least 20 people died and 75 people were injured and hospitalized. Ten of the wounded were in a critical condition, according to a hospital representative. The SMM conducted a crater analysis and its initial assessment showed that the impacts were caused by Grad and Uragan rockets. According to the impact analysis, the Grad rockets originated from a north-easterly direction, in the area of Oktyabr (19 km north-east of Olimpiiska Street), and the Uragan rockets from an easterly direction, in the area of Zaichenko (15 km east of Olimpiiska Street), both controlled by the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”). At 13:02hrs and 13:21hrs the SMM heard again incoming MLRS salvos lasting for eight seconds, from an easterly direction. At a distance of 300 metres the SMM saw smoke above the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ checkpoint number 14 (8.9 km north-east of Mariupol city centre), just several hundred metres away from where the shelling had hit in Olimpiiska Street. http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136061 P.S. One of OSCE members is Alexey Lyzhenkov from the Russian Federation http://www.osce.org/node/109110
UN nations drafted resolution that woud condemn this brutal criminal teror attack, but Putin regime used it's veto against this resolution that way showing their support to terrorism around the world and especially in Ukraine.
Russia prevented the U.N. Security Council on Saturday from criticizing statements by pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels and condemning an upsurge in violence that has claimed dozens of lives in Ukraine, council diplomats said. Pro-Russian rebels have launched an offensive against the strategic port of Mariupol in eastern Ukraine, prompting warnings from the European Union and U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/25/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSKBN0KY01W20150125
EU threatens more Russia sanctions after Mariupol attack
The EU has threatened to impose more sanctions on Russia following its new offensive in south-east Ukraine. EU foreign relations chief Federica Mogherini on Saturday (24 January) said “further escalation … would inevitably lead to a further grave deterioration of relations”. Her communique spoke of “offensives by Russia-backed separatists”, adding, “I call therefore openly upon Russia to use its considerable influence over separatist leaders and to stop any form of military, political, or financial support”.
https://euobserver.com/foreign/127356
Looks like pay back time for Donbass.
So you can dish it out but you can't take it yourself?
Out side Putin regime trolls and propaganda, people understand that this is not war between different parts of Ukraine but between Ukranians and Putin regime.
This is russian speaking ukranian message to Putin after his terror attack on Mariupol:
http://youtu.be/4SqpX-l_8Fo
P.S. Ant this is your "russian world" culture you support:
http://youtu.be/oZ8_2vhkqYs
http://www.sadanduseless.com/2014/12/preved-medved/
http://sobadsogood.com/2015/01/15/49-utterly-confounding-photos-from-rus...
Today's topic of discussion is about Greece. In Latvia have no have upvote, only downvote. Also is cold.
It’s war; them against us. And by “them,” I include you. It's gotten to the point whereby you have an aggressor, created by the NATO/Banker/CIA forces that topple an elected government, that declares war on its own people and nothing it says can be believed. The violence has been accompanied by lies, and the trail of the violence extends from DC to Tel Aviv to Baghdad to Kiev..
Here’s the truth, from the oligarch-controlled media to their inhumanity towards man in Ukraine.
US Media Executive Includes Russia Today (RT) in the same “Challenge List” as ISIS and Boko Haram
By RT
Global Research, January 24, 2015
Newly-appointed chief of US Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG), Andrew Lack*, has named RT one of the agency’s main challenges alongside extremist groups like the Islamic State and Boko Haram.
Lack, the first chief executive of the BBG, mentioned RT in an interview with The New York Times.
“We are facing a number of challenges from entities like Russia Today which is out there pushing a point of view, the Islamic State in the Middle East and groups like Boko Haram,” he said. “But I firmly believe that this agency has a role to play in facing those challenges.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-media-executive-includes-russia-today-rt-in-the-same-challenge-list-as-isis-and-boko-h
*Andrew Lack(Ashkenazi Jew) – Chief Executive Officer, Bloomberg Multimedia
http://www.paleycenter.org/andrew-lack-ceo-multimedia-group-bloomberg-lp
“Je Suis Donetsk”: Ukraine Army Attacks Bus and Trolley in Center of Donetsk. 13 Killed including Children
By George Eliason
Global Research, January 22, 2015
This morning January 22nd at 8:30 local time in Donetsk the Ukrainian army fired what appear to be 82mm shells at buses and tram near the center of the city.
The targets were located within roughly a 25 meter radius of each other. The OSCE is investigating.
The terrorist strike on the bus shown above claimed the lives of 13-15 people including children. There are reported to be over 20 other critically injured, many with blast amputations. The driver of a car next to the blast burnt to death. The blast was large enough to blowout 2nd story windows in an apartment across from it and stopped the clock at 8:30.
Donetsk Defense Minister Vladimir Kononov gave a statement that a group of terrorists launching attacks on civilians have been caught and are Ukrainian military operatives. Small teams of Ukrainian army/terrorists have been perpetrating random drive by shootings with automatics in Donetsk since the Ukrainian army reignited the hot war eleven days ago.
In another development on Slavakaya St. which is located on the outskirts of Donetsk, a local resident noticed an improvised trip mine pictured above. The DNR(Donetsk Peoples Republic) army responded by sending an explosives team to defuse it. The mine was set up on a pathway to a children’s playground.
In the town of Stahanovo today a Grad and Hurricane rocket and missile attack left three children’s kindergartens entirely destroyed this morning. Three more pre-school facilities were targeted and partially destroyed. So far casualty reports are 8 civilians dead including at least 2 children and over 20 wounded. The attacks on civilians are escalating.
Sources are reporting that the attack this morning is only the beginning of a much larger one. Ukraine’s Donbas Battalion is moving military equipment into Artemovsk flying DNR flags and wearing DNR uniforms. Artemovsk is in the control of the Ukrainian army.
The latest attacks on civilian targets in Donetsk show a blatant pattern of criminal murder that has come to define the Ukrainian Government in Kiev throughout the war. Like the other bus attack near Volonovaha where the Ukrainian army fired Grad rockets at one of their own checkpoints this attack shows the open criminality of the Poroshenko regime.
In developed countries governments that give their army units orders to murder other army units and their own civilians are criminals. Every official that could have influence and stop the crimes are held accountable. Most developed countries also adhere to laws of war that makes the purposeful targeting of civilians an international crime. Leaders of countries that order crimes of this magnitude are prosecuted either internally or in an international forum like the War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremburg. After WW2, a guilty verdict meant the responsible leaders were hung.
Why is this openly Nazi government instead rewarded?
Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, U.S. Army, is head of Allied Land Command (LANDCOM) for NATO was in Kiev yesterday and awarded US Army Europe medallions for excellence to the Ukrainian army’s wounded. General Hodges shook one Ukrainian soldiers hand and stated he was “proud of his service to his country.”
At Debalsevo and the Donetsk airport where these wounded soldiers are coming from the Ukrainian army has been targeting civilians for several months. The US Army head of LANDCOM takes pride in this? As an American I have never felt this much shame for my country...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-army-attacks-bus-and-trolley-in-center-of-donetsk/5426224