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Greece Slams EU Bailout-ers: "We Don't Want The $7 Billion, We Want To Rethink The Whole Program"
UPDATE: "CONSTRUCTIVE TALKS" are over:
- *GREECE'S VAROUFAKIS SAYS WILL NOT ASK FOR BAILOUT EXTENSION
- *VAROUFAKIS SAYS WILL NOT ACCEPT SELF-PERPETUATING CRISIS
- *VAROUFAKIS SAYS DISCUSSED EURO AREA, NEW DEAL FOR GREECE
- *DIJSSELBLOEM SAYS UNILATERAL STEPS IS NOT THE WAY FORWARD
- *DIJSSELBLOEM SAYS GREECE SHOULD CLARIFY ITS POSITION (we think they did!)
- *GREECE'S VAROUFAKIS SAYS WILL CONVINCE EU PEERS ON NEW DEAL
As Eurogroup chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem (of "template" foot in mouth infamy) heads to Athens for talks today, Bloomberg reports the new Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has a clear message for his European overlords of the past: “We don’t want the 7 billion euros...We want to sit down and rethink the whole program." While this exposes the nation's banking system to further runs, yesterday's revelation that Russia could step in with financing should they need it, leaves Dijsselbloem and Shulz with less and less leverage even as Spain's chief economic advisor warns, if Greece doesn't play along, "there will be problems on all fronts."
“Will Greece antagonize the European union? If they don’t there won’t be any problems,” Alvaro Nadal, chief economic adviser to the Spanish prime minister, said in a radio interview in Madrid on Friday. “If they do, there will be, on all fronts.”
And, as Bloomberg reports, that is what Greece's new government is doing (as they promised the people),
Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis said he’s not interested in persuading Greece’s official creditors to release the final 7 billion euros ($8 billion) of bailout funds as Eurogroup Chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem headed to Athens for talks on Friday.
Greece wants to agree a new plan shifting from spending cuts to combating corruption and boosting public investment. The proposal hinges on the euro area and the European Central Bank agreeing to write down Greece’s public debt, a suggestion that has been met with skepticism by officials across the rest of Europe.
“We don’t want the 7 billion euros,” Varoufakis said in an interview with the New York Times published late on Thursday. “We want to sit down and rethink the whole program.”
...
“In all honesty, if you sum up all their promises then the Greek budget will very quickly be out of balance and then further debt relief won’t help anyway,” Dijsselbloem said in Amsterdam on the eve of his trip. “We want to keep Greece in the euro zone, in the European Union, but that also requires the Greeks to meet their commitments.”
Things are not going well...
European Parliament Martin Schulz confirmed the divide between Tsipras and the rest of Europe after two hours of talks with the Greek leader in Athens on Thursday.
“In diplomatic parlance, they say that talks were constructive and honest when they have ended in disagreement,” Schulz said. “Well, I will say that talks were honest and constructive.”
* * *
However, it appears things just got a little more tense...
- GREEK GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL SAYS THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT THE TROIKA TO GO BACK TO GREECE OR TO INCREASE THE DEBT PROGRAM: RTRS
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Always start the negotiations with everything.
Well......cause you might get it.
ZHers seem divided on the issue of Syriza and its socialist ideology. I contend that most of the disagreement about socialism vs. capitalism is actually semantic. You see, "capitalism" is a marxist word. (Classical) liberalism entails capitalism, but capitalism doesn't entail liberalism (e.g. if you agree Singapore is "capitalist"). In a free society, you're perfectly able to join/establish a kibbutz or whatever marxist utopia you desire. As you are free to be a randian hero/producer. So the problem isn't with socialism/marxism versus capitalism, it's with coercion versus non-aggression, i.e. forced collectivism versus individual liberty. Can everyone agree on that?
This is THE FIGHT CLUB, not the AGREE CLUB.
If they hung Eurogroup chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem from the nearest lamp post, and sent back his head to Brussels on a plate, would that be considered a message?
I think the Netherlands would consider it a message. after all, it's one of their ministers
So Greece has even less to worry about!
REPUDIATE THE DEBT!
ALL OF IT!
Now is the time to say: "Fuck the EU".
I kinda start to like these little Greeks.
The Greek stance is nothing short of heroic. It's not their fault that corporations and governments helped them borrow such an insane amount of money. In my opinion the new Greek government should take a hard line with the EU. Firstly, Greece should settle for no less than a total debt write-off - anything else is simply unfair and outright fascistic. Secondly, Greece should demand compensation for the damage that other countries such as Germany, have caused to their country. This should be in the form of a grant to help rebuild Greece and get their economy back on its feet. Finally, the rich simply need to pay their fair share - I'm tired of hearing how rich people are the ‘most productive’ and ‘provide jobs and capital investment’. BULLSHIT - All I see rich people doing is playing gold and having fancy corporate meetings, while everyone else struggles to make end's meat. Most of these bastards inherited their wealth anyway, or got lucky.
Costco Has A FULL Return Policy. Learn From It...
EU Can take Their UNWANTED Shit Back Also...
I never thought I would witness a democratically elected leader of a major country (in terms of disruption) be assassinated or removed from presidency. Whoever is after him will be a tyrant if a revolution fails to happen at the time of change.
You think the Cronyism Intellegence Agency (CIA) will stand down this Liberty?!
@MillionDollarBonus_: You must be a mole. The solution to Greece's EU problem of monetary facism is NOT communism. The solution is a Sound Currency and True Capitalism. A Libertarian Society.
ah........November 22, 1963 comes to mind.
or did I just miss the /sarc tag?
This one small step - stop taking new loans - is huge! If they stick to this and it spreads?
Unfortunately, the reaction may be very violent on the part of the lenders, and I mean that literally. When you try to opt out when the mob hits your neighborhood in their racket, the results aren't pretty. :(
Greece needs to DO THE RIGHT THING - and go Iceland on the EU's ass.
It's time for them to simply default - and then turn right around and start renegotiating reentering the Eurozone with no debt.
Lesson to whoever leaned them money - don't.
Reason and basic common sense lead to the same conclusion reached by Varoufakis - it makes no sense to impoverish an entire nation so that it can pay fiat back to an organization which is printing trillions (1.5 planned so far) out of this air.
Balanced wrote: "Reason and basic common sense lead to the same conclusion reached by Varoufakis - it makes no sense to impoverish an entire nation so that it can pay fiat back to an organization which is printing trillions (1.5 planned so far) out of this air."
Precisely so. Had to log in to upvote this comment.
Bankster, the other white meat.
Is there any way to determine whom is most exposed to Greek bonds?
'Repudiate the debt' ?
But the banksters had to make the effort to create a 'loan' out of thin air Nothing, so they could collect interest and enslave the population. The serfs have been taught to "always pay 'your 'debts'".
How is this gonna work out for the banksters if people refuse to be 'debt' slaves ?
How will the world keep spinning ? (The money junkie bankers think it revolves around them, you see.)
Once the banks get nationalized the bankers will not suffer from such dilemma anymore.
When they send it back on a golden plate, i don't have a problem with it.
. . .
Putin already courting traditional Greek friends
Lavrov invites Greek FM Kotzias to Moscow
@Truthseeker2 BREAKING NEWS, Greek FM Kotzias private plane collides with a snowplow that was crossing the runway at Athens Airport. Authorities are at a loss to explain why a snowplow was at the airport in the first place, and attempts to question the snowplow operator were unsuccessful as it appears he committed suicide with a nail gun.
If the bonds are backed by individual countries, for the use of each individual country, aren't we back to individual countries anyway?
Just what is the difference?
The whole purpose of a combined Europe is effectively gone, and with that the leverage against war between countries in Europe....
bonds, taxes and armies go together. the very basis of sovereignty. all this talk about the EU being "something like the US or the UK" was always... silly
the EU is about common trade, common trade treaties and common economic space and regulations. a confederation of fully sovereign countries sharing facilities
That's how they sold the EU, that's not what they had in mind. How many times have we heard that broader legal & political powers must be used to insure that independent countries like Greece can't undermine 'the Project'.
They want a United Europe as a path to a New World Order. They also want a North American Union for that same NWO purpose.
Control freaks want to control everything & this has failed throughout history. Maybe this time enough of Humanity will wake up and minimize the damage before these insane psychopaths blow up the world.
Why exactly do you guys need a common currency, a common law, and a common policy then ? The old Common Market concept worked very well. You could add free movement for European people and that's it. You DON'T need an European Commissar to establish the right number of sheets in a toilet paper roll, or to check the curvature of your garden cucumber. Bureaucracy killed the Soviet Union, and it's gonna kill you too ! Any time now, you're already out of money...
I must confess that I enjoyed it when Tyler Durden creatively renamed Dijsselbloem to "Dieselboom". It was a "Zerohedgian" to do.
No no no no no you are doing it wrong.
You need to send back his head on a spike.
"In breaking news today, the Netherlands declared war on Greece after the Arch-Duke of Euro-Rainbow Land's head was sent to the Hague on a spike."
Russia proposed a summit called "Winter is Coming" while the US proposed an alternative summit -- had something something to do with Dragon Fire and some port in Athens.
Sounds like the Greeks need to use Dijsselbloem for target practice at the same range where the Nazis wiped out 200 of their fellow countrymen. That would send a message.
Interesting how obvious is the "we control you with debt" meme, that is also how they control individuals, municipalities, states, and entire nations.
Eschew the debt, eschew them and their control.
Debt shackles are strong. But no match for guns. With Russia indicating finacial support, those Rubbles could be converted to AK47's in a pinch.
The debter is always slave to the creditor.
...The debter is always slave to the creditor
Only until he decides to stop paying. Same as with any addiction. Breaking the old habits is the hardest part...
The creditor is also enslaved to the debtor as they are reliant upon timely payment. The converse is likewise.
Indebtedness is enslavement both to the debtor and creditor.
Germany is a productive nation and their future is absolutely reliant upon Greece's decision. If Greece defaults then the Germans deal with a large portion of the capital loss.
Who is enslaved at this point, creditor or the debtor whom will default. The defaulted party has no problem as they are not going to pay and have escaped the contract by declaring a Force Majerue.
What will Germany do? Invade? Seize the assets of Greece?
There is not one damned thing they can do. Whom has the problem?
Greece them up and throw them in the russian bear pit
"This is THE FIGHT CLUB, not the AGREE CLUB."
Nah. We've evolved into the Debate Club", where the 'fights' is in the power of ideas & oratory vs the power of fists. Everybody has to grow up sometimes, or be left behind.
Thanks for clarifying that Noben. Never thought I see someone say that on ZH, but there do appear to be increasing numbers of gropwn ups posting on here and it's both a treat and an education at times.
pretty sure even the most reasonable and intelligent person feels the need to throw down occasionally. Talk only gets one so far.
A famous historical quote is coming to mind. Something about black flags and slitting throats or some such glorious barbarism.
The EU is a Zombie and Greece is the limb threatening to come back to life.
just shortly we defined the EU Council as a Hydra, and the fresh new Greek ministers are one of it's heads
and the new head is bitching with the other ones
doubled
I'll give you that.
I contend that there are a multitude of modern-day conservatives who are nothing but died-in-the-wool collectivists. They want everybody to think the same way, be the same way, preferably be the same color, and love the same national symbols. To them, the perfect world would consist of straight white people - dominated, of course, by men.
I am a producer, but I also believe in assisting those who are worse off than I. It's a shame political science/thought/theory is as poorly understood in America as is economic thought & theory.
Do you feel its a moral imperative for all producers to assist all those worse off? In my experience, I've determined - using my own free will - that I don't think many of those worse off should get any of the fruits of my labor. Some I have no problem assisting, but all the others I am perfectly comfortable merely not further disadvantanging by my personal actions.
I believe we should all be free to choose whom we assist or not, based upon our own judgement. I'm tired of the gun at my head saying I have to, have to, have to.
If you dont help them, either by teaching or charity, they will cut your head off and fairness has nothing to do with it. Make a choice.
I won't be held hostage to threats.
They want my head, let em come and get it.
I got a nice hillbilly howdy waiting for em. You see, I don't live in the city. I don't have to beg or bribe them to behave.
They don't want (or need) your head when they already have the ability to skim off of your productive output, as your energy fuels them. (yay parasites)
As for the hillbilly welcome bravado... well, if need be they'll drone your ass before you even get a chance to yell, "hold my beer."
Oh, then they'll use the media to paint you and your friends as enemies of the state, thus further empowering them over you, as the firebrands of "the other side" demand that you be made an example of, to serve as a warning to others.
Simply put, the world is run by the mafia, and you're not going to ever battle them and win.
Its possible to battle them and win. Join any marxist inspired civil war on the bourgeoise side!
The trouble is none of us live in a vacuum. Your attitude is the same exact one that TPTB have towards the rest of us. Doubling down on 'foolish' helps no one.
It's not enough to accumulate wealth for yourself. You also have to convince everyone else to let you keep it. Because they CAN and WILL take it from you if things get bad enough for enough people.
All the arguments about 'fairness' won't stop them. Not being seen as a prick however, just might.
tsar, one does hold a high opinion of one's self. perhaps justified. but you are brain washed as to what conservatives hold..your description could of come off the local script writer for hollywood.
I can GUARAN-DAMN-TEE you, my understanding of modern-day conservatives is spot-on. I don't have the time or desire to go on at multi-paragraph length, but it's founded on deeply personal experience.
I don't hold a high opinion of myself - just a lower opinion of certain people.
tsar:
"I don't hold a high opinion of myself - just a lower opinion of certain people."
well LOL..there you go.
I would agree with tsar, look at John Bohner. Supposed to be a conservative, but serves the progressives.
Not a constitutional conservative anywhere in sight IMHO.
The Greek people are fucked anyway the shit gets sliced as bankers/progressive scum politicians who got them to this point will not be hanged, shot, guillotined or even jailed for the crimes they committed.
Grimaldus
I wouldn't be too sure about that Grimaldus. We live in interesting times and if the Greeks succeed in breaking the mould, I'd hesitate to bet money on where the pieces are likely to fall and who they're going to fall on.
Tsar...I am curious...Just what do you produce?
I am a RECYCLER myself. I take people's unwanted discards, pay for them, recycle them, and ideally net a profit.
I also will provide service through brokering transactions at times.
I am not really manufacturing anything...for the most part. I will hire people to manufacture, fabricate, that which I need.
What item(s) do you produce, and then market?
Just curious.
I don't know that I'd make a statement like Tsar's on rank-and-file conservatives, but with those who actually run the show they're corporate collectivists, which really isn't a surprising given how the US - like many other countries - is increasingly becoming a rent-seeking oligarchy.
spanish, did you have boehner is mind?
How about John McCain?
http://news.yahoo.com/senator-john-mccain-calls-protesters-swarmed-henry-kissinger-185843425.html;_ylt=A0SO8wE71stUL54AsiBXNyoA
Sen. John McCain earned some applause inside a Senate Armed Services hearing this morning after he erupted at protesters of former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, calling them “low-life scum.”
“I've been a member of this committee for many years, and I have never seen anything as disgraceful and outrageous and despicable as the last demonstration that just took place,” said McCain, R-AZ.
Protesters from the group CodePink swarmed behind Kissinger as he arrived alongside two other former Secretaries of State, Madeleine Albright and George Shultz, for a hearing on U.S. national security strategy.
They held up signs calling Kissinger a criminal and chanted “arrest Henry Kissinger for war crimes” -- citing some of his more controversial decisions during the Nixon and Ford administrations.
Madeline Albright is also a piece of shit for a human being.
But I just guess that I am "low life scum". LMAO.
I contend that there are a multitude of modern-day conservatives who are nothing but died-in-the-wool collectivists. -- Yes they are called Neocons.
And they have displaced the Jefferson conservatives.
Here is a sample of current Neocons:
That is one fucking slimey list.
Could not have said it any better. Thank you!
Grimaldus
Thank you for posting that list of Pure Evil Criminals. They will be hunted down one by one & delt with accordingly.
Especially Dov Zaikeim
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LXLmAiNYRoE
looks like the list of dual citizens
They would look good on a deck of cards
They would look even better Hung on stage for all the World to see live.
I whole heartedly agree wth your statement. The whole world is about power relations. Those who show they have power and are willing to use it, then others around suddenly back off. For example, how come they haven't invaded North Korea yet? maybe it's because they have shown to have nuclear weapons.
The current world dominated oligarchs only understand one thing- real action. Now we need a world class leader that will tell the world oligarchs that he will go after them and kill them if they don't back down. I don't think this is going to happen.
Id say it's a serious lack of real consequences for BAD behavior, period.
True capitalists and true soiclaists agree what the problem is. They don't agree on what the solution is.
Unfettered capitalism without some guaranteed .gov safety net leads to either a workers revolution or a fascist dystopia. No less an authority than Von Mises said it best to have some standard of living floor, if only to keep the pitchforks at bay. If you're gonna have some elements of socialisim, protecting the national interests against the oligarchy that has sold out your nation to foreign interests seems a legitimate endeavor.
The problem is that someone in a society of individual liberty will become a banker.
He will the work out how to take everyone elses wealth.
Humans are often conditioned to be a fair bit more diplomatic (i.e. know their place) than a wolf pack that's stacking 5-deep at a fresh kill.
Most civility and expectation of polite civility and fair treatment, is socially conditioned by disapproval of the disagreeable actions, and approval of the constructive and cooperative.
But the pecking order at the kill within a coercive wolf pack which bites those that disagree also determines who gets what, and political peace and equity is not generally the aim.
Given that humans and wolves are both natural social mammals, I prefer human methods at deciding who gets what. But it's clearly not the only way to do things, coercion works too.
It's just that humans are a hell of a lot more dangerous and capable of massive bloody harm and reactions spanning generations, far more deadly than any wolf, so it's definitely best if humans take the more humane path to political differences and equitable diplomatic divisions of the spoils ... of the, er, ... the plundering of ... um, ... humanity.
Get that wrong and humans have long range missiles and rapid transport. Given that's a recipe for certain failure rather than acceptable allocation of resources I'd say non-coercive agreements between unequal 'equals', is always going to be the path to survival and civil continuance.
Alternative to coercion is constructive inducements for mutual cooperative solution, and those always decrease the potential for humans get feral at the kill.
__
Fight-club was once the apt metaphor, now mostly converted to a scrap yard for old failed ideas to convalesce, then stink up the internet as they finally die ... ... Wot? was that too much truth before the third coffee kicks in? ... Please, just mash red button to thus fully articulate your incandescent pique and implicit rejection of manifest verity. ... cheers.
“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
~Proudhon
Coercion and violence are baked in.
@jefferson32
"Can everyone agree on that?"
No, since you're wide off the mark. Capitalism is an economic system, socialism is another system. Capitalism, in its extreme versions, is the absolute rule of the private sector (banks, corporations). In this system, the State (with its powers like its military or police) is only a loudspeaker for private/bank/corporate profits. Good examples are Mussolini's Italy, the EU, nowadays America or any banana republic.
If there was no State at all, in the capitalist worldview, you would end up with private armies paid by corporations and open mafiosi wars, winner-takes-all style.
Socialism, in its extreme version, i.e communism, does not accept any private sector or interests. Everything is State-owned, which guarantees a wealthy State and allows for distribution of riches (salaries, pensions, health system) but curbs private talents and initiatives.
There is nothing "semantic" about their opposition. It's a very real antagonism.
There is a difference between socialism and capitalism, of course; but the disagreement is mostly semantic insofar as the definition of capitalism is ambiguous (e.g. Mises wouldn't have said that extreme capitalism is corporatism, as you do, because he meant capitalism as individualism while corporatism is a collectivism, i.e. is always enforced by the State/institution/guns), and as people often agree when they get rid of the ambiguous/divisive labels and focus on the moral fundamentals: non-aggression and individual liberty. Collectivism/individualism is a better dichotomy to debate (and it fundamentally boils down to your existential view of individual humans).
As a libertarian / classical liberal I find I often have more in common with activist "socialists" (who intend well but haven't yet completed their reasoning/observations) than with activist "conservatives". The apparent benevolence of some ZHers towards Syriza I think illustrates that well. I guess it depends how old you are and how influenced you are by dominant sociological thought.
i disagree with how you framed your outlook.
it is obvious ideology is always bullshit. but there are genuine POLITICAL divides between groups because of the nature of 'identity politics' and the generic human behavior hueristic of 'having to pick sides' in any meaningful existential conflict of political control.
while there are always conspiracies about specific individual politicians and where their allegiances lie and where the skeletons lie (who they are beholden to)-----there is not question that political parties SELL an image of being on a team. and that image includes 'policies' and 'allignements'.
those arent' ideologies but they are very much meaningfully different because it goes to the core of what a political leadership must actually DO to keep the loyalty of the people it sold a team identity to. now , sometimes, leadership betrays its stated goals and lies ( like in america where both parties are totally corrupt and can only be relied upon to take bribes)
but the problems arise when there is very little if not NO money left to bribe people. this problem is the problem of politicians actually DOING what they say they will do.
for example, golden actually WILL kill people it says it will kill. many people say this is theatre. i don't.
the u.s. government kills folks in prison because it's profiteable and this is a money empire of profit. when profits are gone, political leadership obtains its strength both by taking from certain target groups and by rallying the strength of the poor via 'promises' and 'rhetoric' that it FOLLOWS UP ON BY DOING IT.
syriza wants to take from the rich. it says as much. it wants to tax the shit out of the wealthy. it says as much. it will do as much.
in a fools world, everything is perfect and the game of ideology means something. BUT DO NOT CONFUSE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT JUST BECAUSE THAT PERFECT WORLD DOESN'T EXIST, THAT A LESS PERFECT WORLD WHERE PRACTICAL YET MESSY 'TAKINGS' STILL DO NOT OCCUR.
it is , at the end of the day ALL ABOUT POWER. and just because propoganda warfare and the selling of ideology is bullshit , and the underlying narrative warfare is itself part of a practical goal of rallying public power to SUPPORT political power ----DONT BE NAIVE. TAKINGS , VIOLENT TAKINGS HAPPEN.
AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN WHICH VIOLENT TAKINGS---ACCOMPLISHED BY DIFFERENT GROUPS----ARE SUPPORTED BY DIFFERENT PARTIES.
syriza has stated a 40 point goal. which is FUCKING RETARDED. THEY WANT TO TAKE FROM EVERYONE. REGULTORY TAKINGS, AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER OCCUPY WALL STREET STUPIDITY.
YOU'D THINK SYRIZA COULD FOCUS ON ONE THING, BANKS AND DEBT. BUT THEY CANNOT. IF THEIR COALITION DOES NOT FALL APART, THEY WILL WIND UP IN CIVIL WAR WITH THEMSELVES AND OR GOLDEN DAWN.
SYRIZA AS A WHOLE IS A BUNCH OF MORONS. THEIR LEADERS MIGHT NOT BE. THIS IS A DANGEROUS COMBINATION. BUT ITS ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU SEE EVERYWHERE WHEN TIMES ARE GOOD. WHEN TIMES ARE BAD, IT'S MORE DANGEROUS.
...and if it ware /yes/ ,what could it be the practical result of it?
And what program may that be
That we are all borne as debt slaves to .gov for thier debts
I am all for it.
Baaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaa
GO Greece. The bailouts are a curse, they just let foreigners (sorry, European partners) buy up your country using paper they just print to order, its all theft and manipulation.
The vultures are circling - follow Iceland's example and you will save Greece and in turn other countries that are about to be crushed. Greece will go down in history if you can pull this off.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurengensler/2015/01/28/mcdonalds-ceo-out-a...
The entire world should "rethink" this "let the majority eat cake" monetary experiment.
No shit, motherfuckers...
I'm sure glad there are others who think subtlety is over-rated.
There is a reason people are taught and trained to avoid conflict and be complicit, it allows the fraud to continue.
I'm going to borrow that phrase word for word.
I know my word doesn't mean anything to you, but I promise i will attribute it to you when i use it. .
For sure.....The only way Greece gets "cleaned up" is if the debt is reduced/ defaulted
Go Greece & "Fuck The EU!"
if Greece fucks the EU without leaving the EU... isn't that - technically - masturbation?
and yet again, that debt (three quarters of the total) does not pay dividends until 2023
Stroke
For sure.....The only way Greece gets "cleaned up" is if the debt is reduced/ defaulted
Go Greece & "Fuck The EU!"
AND DON'T PUT A CONDOM ON!
Greece never sees money they receive as loan, they usually end at French and German banks as full repaiment 100% on 1euro for there bed investment in Greece.What Greece gets is transfering debt(non Greek but becomes Greek) from banks to government books so it can be permanent. If Greece refuse loan it will be Creditor countries that suffer most not Greece.
"If Greece refuse loan it will be Creditor countries that suffer most not Greece."
I wonder what the amount of debt is? Sure I read it last time they were on the verge but don't rememeber. Who owns the debt and in what amounts. I assume it's the bankers which will just be made whole by the ECB. Looks like the new ECB QE will be buying bonds allright...Greek Bonds.
I suppose I should spend some time to find out what amount and owned by whom. Been waiting for that report to surface here or maybe I missed it.
This is the question these new guys need to ask...and I sure hope they do it!
Demand a full audit of all Greek debt! Who got what, and when? And Greece should also state their intention to repay all LEGITIMATE debt, pending that full audit. If somebody hands me a huge bill, and demands payment, you'd better believe we're gonna sit down and go over those figures, in great detail, before I even take my checkbook out of my purse.
Put up or shut the fuck up, Troika!
There is NO SUCH THING AS LEGITIMATE SOVEREIGN DEBT.
All forced collectives are nothing more than a hostage situation. That they use this power to borrow debt-money on your behalf can never be considered legitimate.
It is theft via coercion and fraud. All Tsipras is trying to do is to negotiate less destructive terms, because if he repudiates, he loses access to the same cashflow for his own ends.
Greece apparently understands the time honored line:
If you owe the bank 100, you have a problem;
If you owe the bank 10000000, the bank has a problem.
Good for them. FUCK IT Roll the dice. What could go wrong to make it worse than it already is?
“When it becomes serious, you have to lie." - Jean Claude Juncker
from about.com:
But just what - or who - is The Troika?
The troika is a slang term for the three organizations which have the most power over Greece's financial future - or at least that future as it is defined within the European Union. The three groups are the European Commission (EC), the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the European Central Bank (ECB)...
+1 but it's not the completely overrated EC (a glorified secretary service, or civil service), it's the EU org itself
of which Greece is a member, and so we see those discussions in the real ruling body of the EU: the EU Council, where 28 governments including Greece and it's real main creditors have votes
Disinfo alert.
Ever been a member of a 28-man gang where everyone respectfully accommodates each other's wishes and sovereignty, and the 27 having a shared kleptocratic interest on behalf of their puppet-masters resist the temptation to gang up on the little new 28th guy?
Spain's chief economic advisor warns, if Greece doesn't play along, "there will be problems on all fronts."...
In particular "Spain"!...
Fixed it!
The words, *huge*, and *brass*, and *balls* comes to mind... ;-)
What's the old saying? Go lie big or go home.
Something like that.
Greece can ask for party money.
How about $50 billion?
Maybe Greece has the ECB and EU by the balls.
Spain and Italy take note on being tough on the pussified EU.
You have Putin in Russia to raise the stakes.
Greece should only accept a one time up front 100 trillion euro or greater loan. After all, we now know that Draghi can print whatever he likes.
Greece should only accept a one time up front 100 trillion euro or greater loan. After all, we now know that Draghi can print whatever he likes
Not sure they would need that much
Take the loan buy silver and gold
and when the euro hits 0.01 hey heres that loan back!
Don't we all think about doing this from time? just replace Euro with USD/GBP/AUD/JPY...
They should definitely submit a request for "aid" to John Kerry. The US never says no.
They should definitely submit a request for "aid" to John Kerry. The US never says no.
Don't worry. The troika will make them agree to their terms with whatever means necessary. BULLISH!!! BTFATH!!!
"Awright, Mr 'Finance Minister,' here are the Troika's Terms.. you will sign them...say, who are those men with you?"
"FSB Bodyguards on loan from the Kremlin."
"Uhh, err, I have to make a phone call. Excuse me."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_nUztwPiEY
“Will Greece antagonize the European union? If they don’t there won’t be any problems...
Alvaro Nadal, chief economic adviser to the Spanish prime minister”
Sounds like a line from "Godfather 4."
Not the Godfather; the Eurofather.
Same guy.
The ZWO syndicate will murder the new Greek government before they allow their 40 point platform to proceed.
Of course, the murder will look like a plane crash or other unfortunate accident because by way of deception the ZWO does war.
The global gangbangksters are in charge.
Greece needs to introduce their new 40 caliber platform.
I disagree, ZWO. Plane crashes worked in Poland, but would be too suspicious here.
It's way more ZWO to pay or set up a Golden Dawn member to assassinate uncooperative Greek heads-of-state.
The ZWO hates paying full price. Setting up Golden Dawn is like a two-fer-one sale.
Greece banks will soar after another 3 weeks of talks turns into an maturity extension and pretend things are fixed for all moment...too important to let Greece pull way the ECB QE curtain and show it toothless as it is..
So they're defaulting.
There's nothing to negotiate. You either pay or you don't.
Can't kick a country out of the EU. You can only choose to leave.
Germany just needs to raise the ante and threaten to leave. Then watch as Greek bonds yield skyrocket and say "you can't service the old or new debt. Negotiate that, asshole."
""you can't service the old or new debt" -- Try this one dipshit, fuck all debt.
Tomorrow you'll come up with FUCK DOUBLE ENTRY ACCOUNTING.
The point being that monetary systems that are not grounded in fucking reality and can be manipulated by a relative few do not last.
Demographics and the laws of Nature and physics are the ultimate drivers of change and things are changing faster. Change is the only constant in this life. No risk, no reward motherfucker. Personally I would not have it any other way.
With you all the way LoP. Just catching up on astrophysics, vector calculus is a bitch!
Better ask German car makers and appliance makers how they feel about their subsidised marketplace disapearing....
The problem with one line formulas is that they are one line....
Perhaps the EU has outlived it's usefulness.
perhaps the rants about the EU without really looking at what it is and what it isn't have outlived their usefulness
After several years of listening to (as opposed to talking to) a number of intelligent Europeans, it is clear that political words have different meanings in Europe and the USA.
For example, the "Right" in the US favors constitutionally limited central government and are considered "Conservatives". Given that the EU has little control over its Soverign members, the EU itself is far to the "Right" of the US using the US sense of the word. It is even further "Right" than the US was before the US Civil War, when US states lost most of their rights to self govern.
The "Left" (Progressives) in the US favors a very strong national government unfettered by meaningful constitutional limitations on its power over states and individuals. By US standards, most ot the soverign EU member states are far to the "left" of anything in the US.
Also, Europeans are very sensitive to the differences between Socialism, Communism and Fasciasm. American are not -They tend to lump them together as part of the Big Government "Left".
Listening to individual Europeans (including more than one Greek), there is no meaningful political support for limited central government within the soverign member states and no support for increasing central control by the EU. How does this political contradiction resolve?
Is there any viable political party in Europe that favors small limited government for soverign member states (not just the EU organization itself)?
Cordially,
TwoHoot
TwoHoot, +1
"Is there any viable political party in Europe that favors small limited government for soverign member states"
well, inside the eurozone there is a faction of various people among several parties, be them conservatives, socialists or liberals (in the classic sense) that favour balanced budgets
that's the smallest "small gov" we can still agree about, and the "tool" to reach that is the... EUR. so technically, pro-EUR means "against new debt"
but the current "champion" of the thing is the EPP, the European People's Party, the EU platform of the various conservative parties in the eurozone
Cameron's Torys used to belong to them, but then he took them out of it
Thanks for "...liberals (in the classic sense)...".
In the US today, "Liberal" means the exact opposite of Classic Liberal. US "Conservatives" are the Classic Liberals. Our constitution was written by classic liberals and embodies classic liberal principles.
If Europeans could remember that simple fact, it would make political discussion between Americans and Europeans much easier. If Americans even knew the difference, it would make US politics much easier to understand.
Changing the definition of words for political advantage halts reasonable discussion.
"There's gonna be troubleeeeee...."
-Tootie
"Spain's chief economic advisor warns, if Greece doesn't play along .."
There ... to them it is all "a game"!
Granted, but what would you call political theater in the USofA?
It's nothing but a sport here - "red team" vs. "blue team" bullshit. That's all we ever get. That's all we're allowed to have.
Rah-rah, sis-boom-bah!
then watch our EU Council, it's 28 teams, each with a national flag and a national anthem
and inside the 28, a total of more then 100 political parties, with fresh, new ones like Syriza
Saw that too, not just a game, but when you play along, it is PRETEND. "If Greece doesn't continue to pretend they can borrow and pay back the 'loans'."
I think they call that a Fraudian Slip.
Greece: STOP LENDING US MONEY
ECB: YOU HAVE NO CHOICE TAKE THE MONEY
Seems the Troika wants to force Greece to go more into debt and Greece is saying no.
They used the TARP boilerplate.
Borrowing to pay debt.
Greece need to start up talks with China and Russia.
That would throw a wrench in Brussel's banking machine.
I still thinks Greece should sue the european institutions and other members (especially france and germany) for breach of EU treaties when they "helped" Greece... Make the whole procedure void, and remove all the clothes on this transfer from EU taxpayers to EU banks...
That's right. That's what it has been about all along. Get them in debt, keep them in debt, forever.
If these guys can make this clear to European taxpayers, it might be a game-changer. It would shed new light on the whole national debt thing. Once people become aware of what the game really IS, they may see things differently.
I'm sure that many German taxpayers are not aware that the recent 'loans' did not in fact go to Greece, but to their own banks. It's because the money gets 'laundered' through Greek banks that gives people the impression the money goes to Greece.
I remain convinced that there is a 'hinky' reason they keep funneling money THROUGH those banks, and that this has something to do with why they seem so reluctant to let Greece go.
We don't want your shitty paper money debt...that compounds each time we take a piss...and can only be used to pay debt service on your shitty paper money debt.
Perfecto!
If they manage to unveil the folly of it, they will have performed an invaluable public service.
Arrest Jeroen JIZZ when he arrives on the TROIKA Private Jet for crying out loud. Hold him for fucking ransom. Don't take the PISS Ghordo!
Martin Schulz confirmed the divide between Tsipras and the rest of Europe"
'Rest of Europe'. He talks for Europe? When did I vote for him? And when the fuck does he talk for me?
The floozie that is Greece does talk sense at times. And the only thing better than courting both the EU and Russia would be to add the US separate from the IMF. But to add the USA, there needs to be a war scenario.
So how can the policy shift to dealing with corruption when the whole EU approach is to shift losses from banks and oligarchs to the public?
*loads up the popcorn machine*
Tsipras folded yesterday about sanctions on Russia.
He will fold soon on this one also, no worries.
http://www.novinite.com/articles/166242/Is+Greece+%27Uniquely+Deserving+...
Not sure why East Europe with a lower standard of living than Greece, would accept to bail out Greece.
Bulgarians are already bitching
either he folded or he extracted concessions and promises in exchange for it. I think the latter is more likely
Euro will be dead soon in my view. They are only trying to minimize the damage at this point.
@ ekm1
You're too small for the lead romantic role but we can consider you for the comedy part you snide little cunt.
Don't know about that. My understanding is Greece is rich in nat gas & Puti is making them an offer they can't refuse.
NATO may surround Russia, Putin is making energy plans around NATO.
Putin has no technology for offshore gas extraction.
Its own deep oil and gas extraction is stalled because western companies withdrew technology, that is about 20% of it, huge
I just finished "None Dare Call It Conspiracy".
After reading how Rottenfellar exported tech to Russia not to mention the disabling of the Cook, I think you may underestimate their capabilities.
Keep in mind the tech Slick Willy exported to China.
Me thinks there's a much bigger pic that we may be missing.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/507474.html