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It's Greece Vs Wall Street
Submitted by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,
On the one hand, I’ve written so much about Greece lately I fear I’m reaching overkill. On the other hand, there’s so much going on with Greece, and so fast, that I wouldn’t know here to begin. Moreover, I’m thinking and trying to figure what is what and what is actually happening so much it’s hard to stay focused for more than a short while before something else happens again and it all starts all over. And I’m thinking it must feel that way for the Syriza guys as well.
One thing I do increasingly ponder is that it gets ever harder to see the eurozone survive. In its present shape and form, that is. Damned if you do, doomed if you don’t, is an expression I’ve used before. It’s like this big experiment that a bunch of power hungry Europeans really get off on, that now all of a sudden is confronted with the democracy they all only thought existed in books of history anymore.
But if you take your blind hunger far enough to kill people, or ‘only’ condemn them to lives of misery, they will eventually try to speak up, even if not nearly soon enough. It’s like a law of physics, or like Icarus in, yes, Greek mythology: try to reach too high, and you’ll find you can’t.
What is Brussels supposed to do now? Throw Athens off a cliff? Not respect the voice of the Greek people? That doesn’t really rhyme with the ideals of the union, does it? If they want to keep the euro going, they’re going to have to give in to a probably substantial part of what Syriza is looking for. Or Greece will leave the eurozone, and bust it wide open, exposing its failures, its lack of coherence, and especially its lack of democratic and moral values.
The problem with giving in, though, is that there are large protest demonstrations in Spain and Italy too. Give anything at all to Greece, and the EU won’t be able to avoid giving it to others as well. And by then you’re talking real money.
They called it upon themselves. They got too greedy. They thought those starving Greek grannies would not be noticed enough to derail their big schemes. That claiming “much progress has been made”, as Eurogroup head Dijsselbloem did again this week, would be considered more important than the fact that an entire eurozone member nation has been thrown into despair.
That’s a big oversight no matter how you put it. The leadership can be plush and comfy in Berlin, Paris, Helsinki, but that doesn’t excuse them sporting blinders. And now they know. Or, let’s say, are beginning to know, because they still think they can ‘win this battle’, ostensibly with the aim of deepening the Greek misery even further, while continuing to proclaim that “much progress has been made”.
Not very smart. At least that much is obvious. But what else is? Greek Finance Minister Varoufakis declares in front of a camera that Greece ever paying back its full debt is akin to the Santa Claus story. Less than 24 hours later, PM Tsipras says of course Greece will pay back its debt. Varoufakis lashed out about Syriza not being consulted on EU sanctions against Russia, but shortly after their own Foreign Minister was reported to have said he reached a satisfactory compromise on the sanctions with his EU peers.
Discontent, confusion, or something worse, in the ranks? Hard to tell. What we can tell, however, is that the obvious discomfort with Dijsselbloem, Draghi, and the entire apparatus in Brussels – and Frankfurt – is a fake move. Either that or it’s only foreplay. If Yanis and Alexis want to get anywhere, they’ll need to take on Wall Street and its international, American, French, German, TBTF banks, primary dealers. And if there’s one thing those guys don’t like, it’s democracy.
Syriza is not really up against the EU or ECB, or the Troika, that’s a sideshow. They’re taking the battle to the IMF, a sort of silent partner in the Troika, and the organization that rules the world for the rich and the banks they own. And that, if they had paid a bit more attention and a bit less hubris, could have gone on the way they have, small squeeze after small squeeze, without hardly anyone noticing, until the end of – this – civilization. But no. It had to be more.
It’s going to be a bloody battle. And it hasn’t even started yet. But kudos to all Greeks for starting it. It has to be done. And I don’t see how the euro could possibly survive it.
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Hang a banker for me Greece.
The 300 Spartans, Part 2.0 Let's hope history repeats and the Greeks beat back the EU/USSA empire.
it is not just greece, spain podemos party is on the rise ... on syriza's elections he tweeted first we take athens, then madrid ...
italy and the rest are not far beyond ... everyone has been basically cornered to the Wall
It´s Greece vs. reality actually. I put my money on reality.
Is this good for American stocks?
In lieu of events in several locations over the past year or so, this is looking more prescient than ever :
http://web.archive.org/web/20111112074159/http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...
With the ever decreasing marginal productivity of debt, tethered to the unbridled worldwide debt-issuance-insanity of the last 30 years, obfuscated by the chimera of mark-to-fantasy/hopes/and dreams of an international banking cabal, and ultimately indulged by a universal toadying elite with its poodle-dog-media conglomerates on the tightest of leashes . . . I for one will put my money (and raise you to infinity) on the objectivity of MATHEMATICS. Greece may yet be cajoled or threatened into cease and desist, but the world has quite suddenly lurched infinitely closer to financial armageddon!!!!!!
Und Sie, mein deutscher Freund sind dabei Ihre vierte Reich bald zu verloren.
i.e. the ponzi has a timeline.
f
Fourth Reich? Something that just exists in a mind in the state of delusion. But that´s what i mean when talking about that Greeks are fighting reality. Seems like 10 million people in Greece are living in their own, very odd dream world since a century or more.
Wolferl,
You just don't get it, do you?
Even as you say it, it does not sink in. Greeks are NOT GERMANS!!!, thank God. There are enough of us as it is. And they do live in a 'different reality', hence, in your arrogance you insist that they are 'fighting' reality. But no!! I insist they are fighting the GERMAN/NORTH EUROPEAN REALITY, as they must, if they are going to ever remain as Greeks. The same with the Russians, or the Turks, or the Morrocans or Egyptians. Not everyone is going to accept the German Reality as the only vitally soleful "reality". Every significant culture has evolved its own long and somewhat unique story. And as such, will push back against the NWO and globalism, or itself die. And if you do not stop insisting on such total gibberish as your reality, then you inevitably will conclude, MUST CONCLUDE, to the great detriment of Germany and the world, that you are an Ubermensch and all else is inferior.
Don't you see where that leads? Can you people be so blind?
And, by the way, my German hi-tech business friends, quite openly accede to the "reichness'" of the present economic arrangement of the north vs. the south. In their unconscious minds it is by no means foreign to them. It is crystal clear. And they laugh out loud as to its perfectness.
So let's not be cute, shall we?
So, as you say, the Greeks are fighting against us Germans. That´s okay with me. And i know the Greeks decided to be Germany´s enemy a long time ago. Time to throw them over the cliff already, because this is getting boring.
Dear Wolferl,
A little pyschological transference? "the Greeks decided to be Germany's enemy??????? What has Greece ever done in two thousand years of tribal evoluition to Germany?
I do not recall the Greeks invading Germany, ever! However in the not so distant past German Wehrmacht imposed some considerable horror on that ancient land.
If your answer is to just "throw them over the cliff", I believe your manner of thinking and speech has indeed dipped deeply into the ancient German soul.
I hope the Greeks make certain you're boredom ends soon.
double post/sticky fingers
The reality is Greece will default and the EU banks will get cornholed and send the entire region into a deep recession.
All nice, but the enemy within is much more dangerous. Greece: Start with your oligarchs, bankers and corrupt officials.
(If Merkel wasn't the pawn of her transatlantic overlords she would act on basis of the understanding that Germany as well one day will find itself in a similar situation: Unable to service its debt under conditions of normal interest rates. Instead of making use of this unique opportunity and get rid of all the debt this c**t keeps on playing the bankers game.)
It is worth noting the double-standard. In 1948 Germany was in ruins and owed extraordinary cumulative debts to its victims for both WWI and WWII. But the then allied response, in order to jumpstart the rebuilding of Europe and not engage in yet another visciously punishing and vengeful Versailles scenario, decided to forgive 50% of all German war debts immediately, and then in order to further not cripple Germany's reconstruction it limited it's remaining repayment schedule to a no greater annual expense of 3% of its debt based upon its net export income.
Rather generous terms, don't you think. But that is because the United States WANTED Germany to survive and succeed (as a bulwark to the Soviet Union).
Clearly the Greeks are considered of little consequence. Kind of like cockroaches. Apparently the farther east and south one travels, the more numerous the pests.
Germany, the fatherland of three of my four grandparents, is once again quite disturbinlgy walking a very dangerous tightrope.
Well... the Spartans won immortality but actually they lost that battle (and died to last man).
It was the democratic Athenians that defeated the Persian army in Marathon and in Salamina. And Alexis and Yanis are Athenians mind you!
It would have been nice if the Greeks and Spanish etc., were equally committed to not getting so far into debt in the first place. Then at least they would have dignity in what they're now demand others do about it. It's not as if they haven't done this to others a dozen times before. Not as if they didn't know exacty where it would lead to.
Yet Germans somehow know that printing money is not the solution to a debt junkie.
Yet it is apparently ok to QE money for those at the pinacle.
Indeed.
Whenever money was involved, people got paid and they got paid A LOT. The conflicts of interest are still everywhere.
Ah, yes! The ELEMENT(s) of Style. You and the bankers have it, the life-loving Greeks do not! Nice of you to admit it, though. Go f**k yourself.
mmh... imho too simple. is the BuBa going to monetize it's part of this "EUR QE"? that's roughly one fifth of the deal. and Finland's NB? or the Dutch NB? etc. etc.
+1 the point is excellent. all in all, Greece is now on the cusp of balanced budgets, and this since nearly half a year
it has two options: either continuing to balance them, at which point it does not need new creditors, and has the upper hand on the old ones
or it spends moar then it taxes, and this means new debt, at which point it has to find creditors, either the new or the old ones
all the rest is just theater... something that has it's own political value, of course
Well, I'll go with the general position Rogoff and Reinhart asserted, that once a sovereign reaches ~90% debt to GDP the ability to repay is out, and sovereign default is on the table, just a case of when. Permanent usury servicing is immoral and unacceptable for any country and population to be placed into, it is little more than criminals in drag employing the tactics of mass slavery.
Despite the pathetic fact that the Greeks got so far in debt, yet again, there is the equally pathetic fact that bankers enabled it, knowing what the score was.
In which case a 50% writedown of current public debt should likewise be on the table, at this stage.
i.e. I have no sympathy for either side.
Rogoff and Reinhart have brought up a good rule of thumb, but the better rule of thumb about debt, independently if you are a private person or a sovereign, is that debt service should not exceed 25% of your income
which, by the way, is the very reason the FED dove down to ZIRP, facing the rest of the world with hard choices
so... no. the Greek debt situation, despite it's "175% vs GDP" headline... is better then the Chinese, Japanese or... drum rolls... American one
mainly because three quarters of it does not pay interest until 2023 and because of the long terms of the Greek bonds on the market
excellent historic examples of sovereigns climbing out of debt are plentiful, for all that want to research them. it's a question of will... and balanced budgets
Yes, that would be a better concept of viability, and once the debt load is thus reduced, economic activity is viable and the blunt tool of inflation can then be applied to speed up the process and ease the burden faster if disciplined to keep eye focused on ball.
This is the banker viewpoint: that the financier is always correct and the victim of usury needs to be taught a lesson.
And when bankers say keep the eye on the ball, as Element says, they mean pay them back, they don’t mean pay attention to the savers, the pensioners in despair, or the beggars on the street.
I wasn't referring to that at all, I was referring to policies of interest rate targets to allow the reduced principle to be reduced even faster to more quickly alleviate the tax burdens to the people doing the paying back to eliminate the debt completely. Hence keeping a disciplined eye on the objective.
JR, you are grossly misinterpreting what is being said. Try standing back and reading what is being said, before diving in.
I've already read Bernanke's and Janet Yellen's speeches.
You are a petty small-minded jerk, fuck off.
So mortgage service should not exceed 25% of income"
Which would mean that the average price of a house should not exceed 4 x average income.
Do we have a "rule of thumb" or not?
In an ideal world, the average house price in Holland should be the average income: €34.600 x 4 = € 138 400
But...but...the average price of house is € 215 000
So another € 76 600, this is 35%, to go.
http://www.gemiddeld-inkomen.nl/modaal-inkomen/
http://www.nu.nl/economie/3501525/nederlands-huis-even-goedkoop-als-in-b...
Fine. But that opens a few cans of worms, like land prices, materials, labor costs to build it and how much market do we want, or get, if prices are constrained?
We do have constrained wages though in a minimum wage world where the majority seem to exist now. That sure doesn't work.
Several cans of worms in fact, but it looks like some very serious changes are coming, and they will have to be resolved.
Affordability and wages are everything if aggregate demand is to stabilize.
Yet, here is Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac writing mortgages with only 3% down yet again!
This is complete nonsense. The Greek people didn’t agree to anything; it was the corrupt politicians who deal directly with the Greek banks who are tied up with oligarchs and get their marching orders from the Troika.
The arrangements worked out for the bailouts of the creditors have been continuing but the misery, unemployment, business disasters and even starvation in Greece have continued as well. And now, when a leader steps forward to take on the political establishment, the people said: We’re behind you.
It confuses the issue to discuss the details of German and Greek relationships to the deal when these arrangements are simply banker-to-banker theft of the people’s prosperity and the nation's resources.
It’s Goldman in Germany behind the German banks and it’s Goldman in Greece behind the Greek banks. It’s Goldman taking the Germans’ money and paying it to Goldman in Greece. The two losers: the German people and the Greek people.
Should be a piece of cake getting them to pay it back then.
We could have a tetchy argument about who started WWII too, but it wouldn't get us to a ceasefire and reconstruction phase.
There is a problem. How to fix it is all we are talking about.
The fix being discussed here, that I disagree with, is the fix calling for continued usury in disregard for the suffering of the victims. Wouldn’t a good place to start be identifying the cause of this crisis, identifying the perpetrators, and confronting them so strongly that they back down?
If necessary, the Greek election may lead to this, even if it’s necessary for Russia to become involved.
For god's sake, don't you think myself and Ghordius haven't discussed or written about that a thousand fucking times over the past four years?
Is there some point at which you will be prepared to move on and address the issue with practical options, and allow such discussions to occur without pretending some critical principle was missed every fucking thread?
Move it on.
What happened to your smooth, sophisticated banker line? Your ZIRP and inflation support are no different from Bernanke’s:
Bernanke himself acknowledged as much in a 2011 press conference: “We are quite aware that very low interest rates, particularly for a protracted period, do have costs for a lot of people. They have costs for savers. We have complaints from banks that their net interest margins are affected by low interest rates. Pension funds will be affected if low interest rates for a protracted period require them to make larger contributions. So we are aware of those concerns, and we take them very seriously. I think the response is, though, that there is a greater good here, which is the health and recovery of the U.S. economy.”
Unfortunately, it turned out that “the health and recovery of the U.S. economy” was only the health and recovery of the insolvent bankers.
When you get loan, it creates a liability, and the credited imaginary dollars presented, as paper or plastic, allows you to claim and obtain real physical resources. So a liability is in fact the result of expending credit to receive real material goods. The person that provided the physical goods does have to be paid, in equal credit claims, that they can use to obtain resources to cover their costs, and make a profit that they can legally live on. You do in fact have to pay people for real resources, or it's called stealing, and you go to prison. I don't make the rules. So struggle with the reality of debts all that you want, it won't be changing as a result though.
Besides writedowns, inflation is a valid and quite rapid way of quickly reducing the principle of the debt, and its service cost, to most rapidly reduce the burden on the public, and to increase revenues for their use, and thus build-up actual surpluses, and provide tax cuts, and grow national savings and investment.
You seem to have no idea whatsoever what we're talking about. I am not a banker, and you clearly are not listening to anything but the imaginary voices in your fucked-up head.
You misinterpret and twist anything I say to you into something that wasn't said at all, and then smear accusations the "banker's line", and other pitiful claptrap. You are thus self-rendered a complete imbecile, and incapable of worthwhile fruitful discussion.
So I reiterate: You are a small minded jerk, fuck off.
I'm 100% satisfied at this point that this is a very accurate assessment of you.
“When you get a loan” is where we begin to disagree. You are taking the view of a contract between lender and borrower. These loans and the bailout arrangements for Greece were made between bankers and their enablers, the unbelievably corrupt politicians. And because of the substantially corruptive political systems throughout Europe and the United States, the people never have a chance to select true representatives.
Exhibit A: Barack Obama.
In Greece, it has been as bad where no matter what happened the same socialists moved into power.
If America’s politicians make their agreements with their creditors you would agrue that these agreements are valid. But I would agrue that they are made between bankers and banker puppets.
Is the U.S. Congress representative of the people’s interest? Are the candidates mentioned and promoted by the press for the coming general election not beholden completely to the bankers? If Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush becomes president, will the contract he or she and John Boehner make with the Federal Reserve be a fair representation of what the American people want or need? It’s laughable that we are dealing with legitimate contract law when the people are not a party to the contract; It ls bankers dealing with banker puppets at the expense of the people.
Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes its laws. – Mayer Amschel Rothschild
"It is easy to rob the people and get rich. We just lend them their own credit on paper and charge them usury (interest)." --The TBTFs
Blah fucking blah. Look at the top of the discussion between me and Ghordius.
That is the topic. Which you did your best to barge into and make a complete arse of yourself.
If you can't even manage to stay on a topic, then you are just an inconsolable ranting dickwad.
Your losing the high ground. Now you are sounding like that name calling prancing peacock named "Jim Golden Jackass Willy."
Let's get something straight Beowulf, I'm not interested in impressing you, gaining your approval, gaining you intellectual trust, or dominating a pathetic moral house-of-cards at zero hedge, nor in populist pandering to it's crowd (most of which are plainly contemptible morons).
It is commentary, it is discussion, it stands of falls on merit, and as I told you two weeks ago, slimy demented arseholes will be treated like slimy demented arseholes, and ingenuous people who are respectable in their comments and not just being stupid trolls, will be respected.
I respect you up to a point, but your playing this "sounds like" angle is puerile. Give it up and participate if you have something to add, or say.
Why you keep comparing me to Jim Willie is a mystery though. I disagree will much of what Willie says, and agree with many things he says, but I do listen to his views and find them thought provoking, if nothing else. I just know when he's talking his gold book, and not talking realistically or in sync with realities I see.
JR:
You wrtoe: "Unfortunately, it turned out that “the health and recovery of the U.S. economy” was only the health and recovery of the insolvent bankers."
Exactly - because the FED is owned by the bankers who are insolvent, and the FED's real mandate from Day 1 was to provide a backstop to the banker's greed and stupidity.
The NY bankers decided they would never suffer throug another Panic of 1907 again. Thus the FED - the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the American people.
-30-
FED's real mandate, from Day 1, has been to fool the general public of the USA, and wider world and MSM, and via the MSM, that the 'US Federal Reserve Bank' is an official US organ of constitutional Governance, and not just some tawdry criminal banking cartel.
Any other form of asserted FED 'mandate' or role is 100% contrived.
Perpetrators or PREDATORS!!!
Does anyone think for a moment that the lenders ever were unaware of the social/political/economic makeup of Greece? THIS IS ABSOLUTELY GROTESQUE. A one week visit would inform any half-wit tourist visitor to Griechenland of the absence of industry and technology and the overselling of sun and sand. Just like the pusher proffering more lines of crack, morally the seller is at least equally culpable as the addict (THINK Goldman Sachs, for christ's sake). In an HONEST and FREE (not politically manipulated) CAPITAL MARKET THE LENDER BEARS EQUAL RESPONSIBILITY (LIABILITY) AS THE BORROWER. Caveat Emptor. The European Banks were buying of the inept and juvenile. No different than CDS based on 'liar loans'. The damn banks and their political henchman are at fault!!!!!!!! And they, not Greek farmers, students, cafe owners can afford to eat their dishonest 'mistakes' (my ass).
Their are pills for that.
Yes, and their are sometimes certain pills that are slipped to tyrants. F**k off!
For your edification:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0dvz07wJEU
"The two losers: the German people and the Greek people. "
And the two winners appear to be Goldman and Goldman
When a leader emerges offering to restore free stuff, the people said, "we're behind you." That's what actually happened. My impression of ZeroHedge is that libertarians like big government.
The Greek people did agree that they want their overgenerous pensions restored. The Greek people did agree that they want the State ownership of inefficient businesses to continue and to employ all of the excess workers. The Greek people did agree that they want to continue to receive the several billion Euro subsidies from the EU. And the Greek people agreed that they don't want to pay for the costs of these failed policies.
Germans did not vote in the Greek elections. Fins did not vote in Greek elections.
I call bullshit! "The Greek people" wanted civil and just society, nothing more . . . and the Greek politicians and oligarchs wanted access to the European purse strings. Nor did anyone (whether in Brussels, Frankfort, or Athens) ever publicly attempted to honestly explain the difference and disintwine the respective interests, anymore by the way, than the general populace of the USA is exposed to the same argument regarding disparate interests here. And that is because the corporate/media/politcal interest successfully gains far too much from obfuscation and theft.
If you want to see blowback, forget Greeks!!! Just wait till JoeBlow Amerikanski is faced with a collapse in SS payments, disappeared pension funds, skyrocketing insurance premia, not to mention job loss . . . and then you will see what runaway financialisation of an enconomy can really lead to.
While I rue the day it happens, some fuckheads here on ZH will eat their filthy words.
By the way, when they created the Euro as a single currency the Finns and Germans, Belgians and Dutch insisted on NOT DOING THE ONE ACT THAT WOULD HAVE MADE THE EUROPEAN UNION WHOLE!!! And that was to federalize the individual national debts of the member states. And curiously, why was that? Because they knew damn well they themselves didn't want to take on the debt-risk of a half a dozen southern 'Alabamas' and 'Mississippis'. GREECE and SPAIN ARE NOT GERMANY and FINLAND, and they never will be! They have completely different cultural heritages and histories.
Given that, the Euro was never anything but a trap to capture markets and shackel a new legion of serfs to a wholly alien cultural ethos. And it worked, until it didn't. Now the serfs are waking, rubbing their eyes, and becoming quite agitated. Bring on the guillotines, bitches!
The entity loaning money should pick the interest rate that takes into account the possibility/probability of default.
That is the purpose of interest.
+1 and defaults bring balance back. nevertheless, that was the purpose of interest... until the Age of "Risk-Free" and "Fully Hedged" Bankster Bull Shit (BBS) came... ZeroHedge's very title is imho a criticism of this Age and BBS
Good point! And I'll just suggest negative interest is appropriate here.
If interest is tied to the level of risk on a loan, how can negative interest rates make any sense?
Can't have a loan with less than zero risk.
It was tongue-in-cheek. ;-)
Fair enough.
Sometimes my sarc detector has an off day!
It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents. (Lyric from Roger Waters : http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rogerwaters/perfectsensepartii.html)
If the risk of default on loans gets too high, then loans just won't be made. I've often heard it said that the banks are just sitting on their QEs and not lending it out. What does that tell you?
same as it tells everybody
The banks are trading the markets
“Not as if they didn't know exacty where it would lead to.” -- Element
You are confusing the Greek and Spanish people with their corrupt politicians who knew, of course, what they were doing time after time – and why they were doing it. They get paid for it, for heaven’s sake.
Are these banker-connected politicians corrupt? Here’s what Peter Pan wrote on 12/03/2013:
QUOTE:
Varoufakis may not have all of the solutions but at least he is a mile ahead of the lying kleptocracy thay continues to rule Greece and the European vultures that circle and land for instructions and inspections.
Just for readers' interest;
1, the mother of ex prime minister George Papandreou has been found to have an account with 500 billion euros
2. The wife of an ex PASOK party powerful minister Papantoniou has been found to have not declared a bank account with 2 million euros
3, Ten high ranking clergy are being investigated for multi million euro bank accounts.
In the good days, the high ranking kleptocracy stole 5 and gave out 1 to the common people to buy their votes. Now that things have soured they persist by trying to syphon 5 out of the common people while they can barely bring themselves to contribute even one euro themselves.
Greece will have no progress until the local and international vermin remove their tentacles from the throats of the people. Of that, I hold no immediate hope.(end quote)
Piss-off! When people vote for governments who steal the people's future, and sell them to bankers, those idiots do in fact know they're building-up debt.
For years the PIIGs were told the nature of the problem, and were warned about their govt spending policies, and were warned about the ramifications of high deficits, which were well out of whack with revenues and rates.
But in the off-chance that they were inexplicably ignorant, dull, illerate, chroically appathetic or just not paying attention, ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse. You still pay for voting choices. So spare me the applogetics and blame games.
I'VE HEARD EVERY WHINING FUCKING BIT OF IT BEFORE, A MILLION TIMES.
I have zero sympathy for excessive debtors, or for excessive banksters, or for ANY politicans who sell populations as debt slaves (or for tedious idealoges).
For years the PIIGs were told the nature of the problem [...]
So spare me the [...] blame games.
Maybe you should start yourself doing that, if you don't want to look like a complete bullshitter here
The PIIGS were told explicitly, in papers, in speeches, in reports, at conferences, year after year, to cut their excessive spending and borrowing and reduce their deficits, and balance their budgets or expand revenues. You apparently have no clue about any of that, or are just acting incredibly ignorant.
And pointing out basic facts of history is not blame, it is the context of why Greece's Govts and Greek people are now pretending to have done nothing at all wrong. They made this mess, not someone else. What they did could not be any clearer.
In fact, they're infamous for having the worst record of serial sovereign default of probably any country of Earth. This also is the relevant context, not blame. It is exactly that context that the bankers ignored, and loaded them up anyway, to enslave them, so I have no sympathy for any of them.
But it is necessary to finally resolve this, which is exactly what we were discussing above.
Not that you give a fuck about resolving it, I've seen your comments before, and you are invariably a toxic little scumbag.
The big mistake is VOTING!
If nobody voted, these fucks wouldn't be able to claim power over others.
The very last person who should be given power over others is he/she that wants it.
A point I 100% agree with LM. There was an State election where I am this weekend just past (Monday morn here) and I did not vote for that, and a few other reasons. I will not be voting ever again as I am satisfied it doesn't help one bit. But does have the intent of indicating my consent to debt slavery and other forms of organized govt infringement and personal betrayal.
Vote Guy Fawkes, the only man to enter the Houses of Parliament with honest intentions.
@ When people vote for governments who steal the people's future, and sell them to bankers, those idiots do in fact know they're building-up debt.
So, you’re saying when we had to pick between John McCain and Barack Obama, if we had just picked the right one, our problems would have been solved (IOW, which one would have saved us from being “debt slaves?).
There have been thousands of speeches, books, and reports providing the information to American voters about the consequences social Security - Ponzi scheme is a regular theme. Deficit and Debt are regular political topics. Picking the right one failed long ago. But, yes, McCain would have been a much better choice for the country on a financial score card. Saving the country would have to begin with stop digging a deeper hole.
The U.S. already is paying a price for “John McCain.” He costs you – from open borders, to war on sovereign nations to surrender to Israel foreign policy, to the threat of World War III on the battlefields of Ukraine.
JR+110 you are wright.
have to agree with element here.. reposting my comment on another thread:
i know a bunch of greeks in NA. I asked them what they thought about greece having their own currency back in 2012 and they were vehemently opposed to it. They do realize that they will have a very low purchasing power with the drachma as almost nothing is made in greece anymore. The citizens of greece really want to kick the can forward. However these are teh youth that managed to get out of greece and are not the unemployed in greece. I dont really know if the unemployed youth in greece have a different opinion but the greeks I talked to seemed to think so. There is also a lot of greek pensioners in greece that dont want to recieve their pensions in drachma essentailly devastating their current standard of living.
The greeks dont really want to go back into farming though they probably will have to when they exit the euro. They probably wont be able to keep fuelling their BMWs. As the greek i was talking to said. They really cant live like the chinese who are manufacturing most of the stuff they consume. They think that they can keep their trade/current account deficit forever. the people are complicit in their governments actions at least in the case of greece.
Oh you mean
it was the masses fault if they didn't reject the politicians disguised offer of "the easy thing first, the difficult thing later"?
And in general it's always the borrower's fault, never the lender's.
Yeah sure.
Seems one sided. In the eternal war of makers vs. takers, these bankers are takers, but aren't many of the Greek people takers too? Didn't they just elect someone who will help them take more?
Bingo. I have no love for the banks, but if people think electing leftist scum is going to help them, they are dead wrong.
The only good in it I see is that the people are fucked either way, so the leftist scum will work to make sure the bankers are as fucked as possible too ... until the bankers hire assassins to take out the leaders that are making things tough.
It's human nature to be a Taker. It is a social subculture that 'legitimizes' this mindset into a permanent and 'honorable' state.
What Greeks are really good at is Tax Evasion. Given the nature of the fiat and FRB financial system, I can't say I blame them.
In the Olympics of Tax Evasion, can the Greeks even approach the American's World Record?
I must be sub-human.
I don't want to take from others, just exchange on a mutually agreed basis without some middle man standing in between and stealing from both.
I can do a lot of useful stuff, but I can't do everything I need to have a decent life in this world. Others can do stuff I can't.
As soon as a human being makes enough effort to have a small excess, the takers who have no skills or morals move in and steal it.
Goes back a long time - to the development of agriculture.
The prevalence of psychopathy in humans is about 1%.
1% have taken control.
Correlation is not neccessarily cuasation, but there is, IMHO a decent amount of evidence that in this case, it is.
If money is to be taken, what's more acceptable:
Okay. Now answer if that somebody invented the game in the first place.
Well how aboutmwe aim a little lower and tell them to stop stealing everything and then taking the money.
In short..."get a grip, dude.". This is what being in charge actually means.
This ain't no Party running these things and, well...let's just say "there is no substitute for an independent judiciary" which is why in the USA the Judges starve.
Excellent article
Greek Finance Minister Varoufakis declares in front of a camera that Greece ever paying back its full debt is akin to the Santa Claus story.
So in other words Greece is like every other nation. The money is never getting paid back. It was never meant to be paid back. It is a debt system meant only to keep the Oligarchy empowered and all important assets under their control.
If Syiza's "socialism" is keeping the assets and wealth of its nation of and for its nation that's okay by me. There's a big difference between a total command/control economy and protecting your nation from supranational predators.
No, they hire them. (for lots of money they don't have)
Greece has just employed an investment bank to "restructure" their debt.
Matthieu Pigasse, CEO von Lazard, France will head the restructuring. Has major influence within France's elite. That spells trouble.
Surprised they didn't hire Goldman Sachs, since they did such a good job "massaging" Greece's debt numbers so they could cheat their way into the €.
it ain't easy being a fly in the ointment. no one cares about the fly, only the ointment.
I guess the author of this blog is right - we must support the democratically elected Marxists now running Greece, because really, who has a better track record of running countries around the world besisdes democratically elected Marxists?? Just look at the great job they've done in Venezuela. Sure, they have a little habit of changing the Constitution so that once elected they can never be removed, and sure they will destroy the economy as all Marxists are wont to do, but who better to enforce equality than a bunch of Communists? Go for it Greece, I'm sure everything will just come out roses!
If your enemy is superior, evade him. If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight, and if not split and reevaluate.
How it will be done:
Everybody loves and underdog, and there's millions of people just waiting for someone to step up so we can join them. Others will follow, Spain, Portugal, France, UK....
That's how it's gone down every time in history. The bully doesn't realize how many kids wanna bash his head in until that fateful day.
I can't imagine how UK folks will follow anyone. Have you seen the scotch referendum vote? England is bought by City, population brainwashed. But maybe I'm missing something.
Scotch is the drink.
The people are Scottish.
Might help to know this if ever you find yourself in a Glasgow pub on a Saturday night!
The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club.
The second rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club.
Third rule of Fight Club: Someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over.
Fourth rule: only two guys to a fight.
Fifth rule: one fight at a time, fellas.
Sixth rule: no shirts, no shoes.
Seventh rule: Fights will go on as long as they have to.
And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
get it straight! ITS ON BITCHEZ!!
I don't know about all this fighting. Seems to me that the bankers don't fight until the game is rigged to their advantage. I'm afraid all this talking about fighting is just going to lead to a big disappointment for us non-bankers.
Yup. The only way you win the banking game is not to play. When enough people withdraw from their rigged casinos, unplug their propaganda, and repudiate their odious debt and fraudulent property claims, THEN they will collapse without a shot fired.
OTOH the banksters are the only ones who profit from a shooting war. (Or a War On Drugs, War On Terror, War On Poverty... )
No shooting, just stopping. Disappear from their systems in any way you can. Then you win.
A friend of mine has developed a card game which demonstrates this quite nicely.
The only way not to lose is not to play!
or to be playing with a "stacked" deck, like some bankers we've all heard of
"When you got nothin' u got nothin' to lose"
~ Dylan, Highway 61 Revisited
Relative. Greeks got more than 90% of the rest of the world. Watch out Greeks, Indians and Chinese are coming for you, you rich bastards. Hell, even average Russian is still much poorer than average Greek.
Sadly - Greece is but a pawn -
Every chess player will gladly sacrifice a few pawns to win the game - it is after all one of the things pawns are good for.
Wrong reply. Deleted.
So they will sucrifice the Eurozone or to put it in numbers... around 300billions in actual loses because Greece is a pawn ;p
I bet you don't really know what is going on here ;)
But to clarify its what kind of debt Greece holds rather than the amount or the willingness to pay it off!
Spartans unite; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Prc1UfuokY
I hope the Greeks tell the Eurocrats to piss off and default....and get this bond bubble pricked.
This so called great recession and the (non) recovery is kind of like being in purgatory. Let's get this show on the road.
Best case, it seems to me, is that the BRIC's get their alternative payment system operational soon enough to provide an alternative financial system.
Everything else is gonna be treading water . . . or revolution.
Who the hell is this "Ilargi Meijer" spammer? More articles written than agent Durden himself.
Try reading the very 'elegant' discourse at Automatic Earth. The Tylers post him because he has thoughtful and pointed commentary to make a person actually think, in other words, 'Elegance'. Unlike yourself.
so dear Raul... had an epiphany. excellent
"It's Greece Vs Wall Street" kudos to him to realize that"Syriza is not really up against the EU or ECB, or the Troika, that’s a sideshow. They’re taking the battle to the IMF, a sort of silent partner in the Troika, and the organization that rules the world for the rich and the banks they own. And that, if they had paid a bit more attention and a bit less hubris, could have gone on the way they have, small squeeze after small squeeze, without hardly anyone noticing, until the end of – this – civilization. But no. It had to be more."
now since the author has had this great leap in understanding that both the EU and the ECB are indirectly victims, through Greece, of this scandalous WALL STREET series of actions...
perhaps soon he will even understand that the IMF is just doing the job the way it's set up. the dog hates the veterinary even when his life depends from it
the real vampires in this story around Greece... are plainly visible to everyone that just follows the frigging money and sees who organized this great inroad of cheap credits and little people's savings into Greece and then back home to the strong dollar
something the "EUR wall" should and could have prevented... if the Greek corrupt governments had not let the Trojan Horse in. ah, Greed, damn powerful demon
seeing how smart this guy is, perhaps in two weeks we can read his next epiphany, if he takes time to research a bit more
Goldman Squid
0 % interest cannot have the effect that interest is normally supposed to have, account for the possibility of default.
Can't have real interest rates when WS has such large derivatives, even if they are now owned by the future tax payer...
Exactly. It was Goldman Sachs which systemically defrauded the EU by hiding the true facts of the Greek national debt between 1998 and 2009. GS even installed their own man, a GS alumni Lucas Papademos as unelected prime minister of Greece in 2012 after booting out the elected prime minister George Papandreou (He resigned).
I am reminded, though, of the best gladiator schools in ancient Rome. only because they come from the best Academy, it does not mean they can't be hired by others
the Swiss mercenary history is a good example for that, until 1515 both France and Austria had so many Swiss mercenary that it became their "Armageddon" on the battlefield
Just doin God's work.
Exactly exactly
"Bailout" is just another screwdriver in the toolbox of "Redistribution of Wealth"
Back home in the USA to join all the other scams of the Fed and the huge profits taken between Dow 17,000 and Dow 18,000 by the corporations who bought the Dow 6600 on a tip from Treasury and the Fed in 2009.
Profits that will be plowed into the USD as it continues its lighter-than-air flight alongside a new herd of flying pigs longing for employment in Washington.
And that strong dollar will be used to strip the prime assets from the struggling nations, ruined by the Made-in-USA subprime mortgage bubble and the "helpful" bailouts that followed.
And then the US will own all the hotels and property on the board of Earth Monopoly and the 1% will set their sights on distant stars and the NYT and WaPo will cheer them on.
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/ This is the blog site I have read for year or so from the Greek finance minister. Some of you really need to go there and do some reading. What is being protrayed here and on other blog sites around the world is not a true picture. You all might as well get it from the finance minister himself.
Many here blame GS when the ECB knew all about the GS financial spins and the ECB even had auditors in place working with GS. Goldman Sachs did not pull the wool over on the ECB as so many state all the time. The ECB and GS were in cohoots to get another country into the EMU. All many need to d ois look at the Ukraine to know how the ECB and EU act to be honest. The Ukraine was broke and in worse shape then any other EU country in the bailouts. Yet they were going to become a member of the EU and EMU. Please!
The IMF originally recommended for the bailouts to work in Greece, a debt write down had to be done from all sources. Guess what the private investors took it in the ass and the ECB refused to take a write down. Laws were actually broken at the ECB to subordinate all other debt. Many here pointed that out at the time.
None of us will ever know the real stories and all we can do is research and come to our own conclusions.
Ghodrius likes the blame the USA for their woes. I blame them all for their woes. Yanis has many valid points and even blames the ECB for the mess, moreso then the IMF.
While not dismissing GS culpability here, I do believe it is European Banks (including their patron the ECB) that own the vast majority of Greece's debt, and thus hardly are "the EU and the ECB ... indirectly victims", but rather the predators, methinks.
Look, we really need to keep it in our pants about Syriza defying the bankers. Sure there have been hopeful noises but you have to assume that in the end Tsipras and co will be blackmailed, bribed, or otherwise brought into compliance, if indeed this hasn't been a load of premeditated bullshit from day one. For gods sake don't hang your hat on the promises of a bunch of Greek socialist politicians!
Indeed, prolly are just haggling over the price to sell out their citizens.
Politicians will be politicians, after all.
No matter what label they apply to themselves and how we might feel about that label, the proof is in nothing but the puddin'.
We'll know it when we see it.
Yup, fact is that we ain't seen it yet.
They better get their shit together, they are against a powerful enemy. Not every country has a heavyweight like Castro.
I hope they stick it to the banksters and become the catalyst that starts the collapse of the whole artficial edifice.
Venga Podemos!
What will Brussels do now? Same thing East Berlin did in 1953---call in the professionals to teach the proles a lesson.
The Warsaw Pact only collapsed when the banksters pulled the plug on the Russian experiment in central planning and a bankrupt Moscow had to choose between normalizing eastern Europe or keeping the lights on. DC's credit is still good. There may be no money for tax cuts, but you better believe there'll be plenty of money for another Balkan war.
"There may be no money for tax cuts, but you better believe there'll be plenty of money for another Balkan war."
That's because there's ALWAYS money for war! ALWAYS!
How much traction these new leaders get with this is the question. The policy may be right for Greece, but the cabalists don't play by those rules and they are gunning for fire sale privatizations.
I wonder if the cabalists are dusting off the compromised pediphile dossiers on these Greek politicians. Afterwards as these are presented as part of the discussion it is often amazing how quickly the tune changes. And if Boy Scouts are involved against these satanists it is best to avoid high places and dark alleys. God speed. The resistance shelf time may be short.
Lousy article at best. I see why it is posted: 'bad' words against financial powers. But so what: more depth is needed. Raul I. M. failed miserably.
The reality is as the new FinMin has stated. Grease is already BK - loaning more on condition of greater austerity is not an answer, unlress you are a banker and want to avoid market-to-market (zero).
No civilized bankruptcy laws require the debtors to eat from dumpsters or prostitute themselves.
Greece can BTFD. Invite Russian and Chinese support and convert to Bitcoin. Then they can create their own cryptocurrency--Geekcoin digital currency.
Long live the revolution. Arrest Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein.
Can we stop pouring sympathy on these guys - a tiny nation of tax-cheats and government dependents discovers its accounting was fraudulent, gets bailed out, and doesn't want to pay the loan. Such sympathetic characters! Their leverage is imaginary. Frau Merkel should send them back to the drachma and in three months' time everyone outside the soon-to-be hovel that is Athens will have forgotten the matter.
Maybe the Frau can repossess the Mercedes and Audis, etc that were purchased with that money? I am sure Germany has a robust market for second hand goods.
How's your Flavor-Aid? Because this isn't about just Greece. When the banksters start foreclosing on your nation, don't say you weren't warned.
I hereby award you 1 printed upvote for agreement, and one digital upvote for getting "Flavor-Aid" right. (Alas, digital upvotes aren't printed for you to use, but you can go ahead and mark 2 upvotes on your balance sheet at home. Now you are twice as rich!)
On what you said, I can only see those down votes as people in denial.
kolya111 that is exactly what it is. The problem is Greece produces little, they're not anywhere close to self sufficient. They MUST import and that will be near impossible with an inflated Drach. Who wants worthless paper? Greece is fucked and they don't have an easy way out. The big talk is a great political move, but the starving masses will riot when they can't afford a Souvlaki.
"a tiny nation of tax-cheats and government dependents"
Greece is small fry compared to the US on those matters, and I've never heard any calls for US austerity. Greece has enough leverage, Russia/China would gladly help in their hour of need.
Banking is about power, not money.
If you have never heard calls for US austerity it is only because you were not listening very well. It is a regular topic in all Federal and State elections. Of course, you may be excused for not hearing it as the majority of voters also ignore it.
And of course, you did include all military expenditures, and CIA, FBI, NSA, NSC, and every other god-damned government blood-sucking acronymic leech-agency, right? Just checking. I certainly want to be on the right page with you.
Tax Cheats? Tax Cheats?
Any rich fuck with assets over 50 million I guarantee you pays NO taxes.
Corporations DON'T pay taxes. (it's a business Expense).
Do you think the Rothchilds & Rockefellers on down 5 levels pay ANY taxes?
Chomsky: Victory of Syriza is a victory against neoliberal assault
The only one that will save Greece is Russia at this point.
And guess who just announced they will volunteer to be an intermediary for Greece in a vain attempt to keep any outside third party interests at bay?!!!!
Too much oil and natural gas on it's turf for the Troika to walk away from. Not to mention that wonderful "silent partner" that won't be so silent with a beautiful bridge in the shape a trans Northern pipe running between Turkey and Greece!
Oh and lets not forget all those U.S. military bases dotted throughout there landscape keeping them safe from a Russian invasion!...
End of discussion!!!
The Greeks owe half a TRILLION dollars ($400B euro)!!!! There's no way in hell Russia can bail them out. This is really serious folks. There is NO easy button on this one.
The Greeks DO NOT pay their taxes. I lived there for many years, I know this for a fact. The professionals (doctors, etc) brag about avoiding the taxman. The only real reliable tax base is government employees. But, a government can't tax itself enough to ever pay equal wages to itself. That's a big part of Greece's problem.
The Greeks owe half a TRILLION dollars ($400B euro)!!!! There's no way in hell Russia can bail them out. This is really serious folks. There is NO easy button on this one.
Who says they owe a Trillion dollars?... The IMF???....
And if we were to add up the REAL value of those oil and gas deposits they have on their soil, how much would the Greek citizens be compensated for in paying off that debt?!!! Will the EU affiliates in Brussels tell them what it's actually worth???!!! Just like the price of PMs they will never get an honest valuation from the "Casino"! Will they?...
No small wonder we're being told that oil prices will be staying in the $40.00 a barrel range for years to come in order to accompany perpetual war!!!!
Hocus Pocus sheik!
They better do better than 'Bath House Barry' to fix it now with Spain "on deck"!!!
And if we were to add up the REAL value of those oil and gas deposits they have on their soil, how much would the Greek citizens be compensated for in paying off that debt?!!!
That is a new concept that should be popular in Greece. Debtor gets paid for honoring the repayment obligation. So, Borrow money and make a gain for paying it back?
Greece has a World War II reparations claim against the Germany for a couple trillion dollars. Greece declares that it is using part of its reparations claim to fully off set all monies advance to Greece by all third parties. Tells those creditors to collect whatever is due from Germany.
Greece reinstates the Drachma and solicits bridge loans from China. Offers free trade agreements to Russia and China. Repudiates all prior sales of public properties and entities and tells the buyers to use part of the reparation claim to obtain payment from Germany, etc.
Greece withdraws from the common currency and IMF and sets up banking and business otherwise.
Why would you stupidly assume that any support Russia would give would go to interest payments to rich bankers?
What a dumb supposition as a starting premise.
Fuck Me Running! Enough already! Just do what Iceland did and put an end to all the drama. Crap...
I still think that Greece want more money and ECB don't have spare money.
Meijer is exactly right. It’s now the final battle, coming for generations: The people versus the banks.
There’s nothing more dangerous to the king than the people in the streets with a leader who won’t back down.
The mistake the IMF (Wall Street) made, you can see, is it doesn’t understand leadership. It’s almost as if Tsipras has been reading Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals.” And here is a key rule:
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
Alinsky’s primary advice for radical leadership is to take a bold unconventional radical stand and then never back down; the people will follow.
IMO, Tsipras does have the option to back down. If he does, what role will their ever be for him in life.
.
The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks.
--Lord Acton