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Back To Square One: Germany Throws Up All Over Varoufakis Proposal, Calls Greek Plan "Half-Baked"
If there was any confusion how Germany would react to the latest Greek plan, even though as we explicitly stated yesterday, the "new" Greek plan is really the "old" Greek plan but repackaged semantically for appeal to German taxpayers, even as the proposal to involve Europe's public entities in a distressed debt restructuring is a non-starter, all confusion can be now abandoned following remarks by Merkel's ally Kauder in which he not only called the Greek debt plan "half-baked" saying he will no longer respond to new proposals from Athens "every day", but making it clear that there will be no renegotiation of the existing bailout proposal saying "we have agreements with Greece and not with a government - and these agreements have to be adhered to."
From Bloomberg:
- Volker Kauder, the caucus leader for Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic-led bloc in German parliament, calls Greek debt recommendation “half-baked” demands a refrain from new proposals “every day.”
- "We’re not going to play this game,” Kauder tells reporters in Berlin ahead of CDU/CSU caucus meeting. “I’m not ready to comment on half-baked plans every day. The fact remains that we have agreements with Greece and not with a government -- and these agreements have to be adhered to.”
- Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s new government has a right to make proposals, though must bear consequences
- “The German tax payer mustn’t be held liable for the decisions of this leftist-populist government,” Kauder says. “It’s up to Greece to decide.”
- Troika of ECB, IMF and Commission must remain as negotiating partner with Greece: Kauder
- “I don’t like the tone of voice out of Athens at all,” Kauder says. “That’s not the way to talk to one another in Europe.”
- “There are new proposals and new reports coming out of Greece all the time and all of Europe and beyond seems to be holding its breath,” Kauder says
- “A government should first of all reflect, should make concrete proposals and not present something new every day,” Kauder says
- “The new Greek government doesn’t create any trust this way,” Kauder says
All of this takes place after moments ago Merkel made the record-high DAX unhappy when she said the Greek talks would likely drag on for months.
And just like that, we are back to square one, even though futures are now almost 60 points higher form where they were this time yesterday.
Mission accomplished.
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I want this whole fucking sytem to burn to the ground. Hindenberg style.
no give, no take. greece be hittin' da brics soon.
I hope this guy, WhatTheFakis, is not a slimy sleazeball. For a change ;-)
Looney
watching channel N24 ... it is simple terrible what the fathers and grandfathers of these current people have done ... terrible people ...
"Germany Throws Up All Over Varoufakis Proposal,"
that's funny, the news has made me want to puke for years now
German TOWEL FIGHT With Greeks...
Germans won't us any olive oil on the loser either.....gl Greeks at least you're used to it
News out!...
Ukraine declares "Anna Kournikova" as new President.
EU President Jean-Claude Juncker Thursday - The EU is a Fascist Dictatorship “There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties” http://ian56.blogspot.com/2015/02/eu-president-jean-claude-juncker.html
Ghordius this is a dagger to your idea of the EU: thank you poster Ian56..
"EU President Jean-Claude Juncker Thursday - The EU is a Fascist Dictatorship “There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties” http://ian56.blogspot.com/2015/02/eu-president-jean-claude-juncker.html"
what does it even mean? this guy has a blog, takes this half-baked sentence of Juncker - who is known for his very strange utterances - and builds up a "The EU is a Fascist Dictatorship"
the real meaning of JCJ's sentence is that a treaty involving more then a dozen countries can't be just thrown out of the window because of one election and... no new treaty negotiations
please. the new elected Greek Parliament is not even one bloody week old. and we have seen that it's appointed government is still trying to find it's diplomatic voice
The problem is thus;
If the Greek people do not want to repay the debt who is going to make them?
Every debtor has a right to default. If Greece wants to default who is going to stop them?
has the Greek Parliament legislated a law concerning a default? the answer is either no or not yet
They will.
This is pretty much a majority government over in Greece...not a coalition of many factions as in times past.
Greece will default. You had best hedge your positions, Ghordius, and prepare for that eventuality.
it's still a coalition of two parties. and no, I have no positions to hedge. we'll see
If you hold Euro priced assets then you have a position.
I produce in Greece and in a few other eurozone countries. so I hold EUR... liabilities. does it count?
Now we get to the root of your love for the Euro.
It benefits your business, and individual currencies would give you risks that you rather not have.
risks and possible profits, too. I'm an entrepreneur. for me, risk is opportunity
of course the EUR makes my business, and that of all that have operations across the eurozone, much simpler. that was one of the purposes of the EUR, after all
sometimes financialists should remember that the real economy has needs, too
having said that, I'd rather prefer not to have to setup my own FX desk, and skirt the hedged border of speculation
Take care of yourself, Ghordius. I harbor no ill will toward you.
you too, me too ;-)
Someone is forgetting the 2011 Coup D'Etats in Greece and Italy to install Goldman Sachs puppets, when Greece and Italy threatened to rebel against bailing out the banksters.
Someone is forgetting the level of Goldman Sachs control over the EU in general.
Someone forgot how Luxembourg actually makes it's money.
It's all in the blog article, along with much else.
in both cases, parliaments fired their governments
George Soros is the one who financed this Greek Selection.
So you think that this is a contest between Goldman Sachs and Soros?
Hmmmm...Pass the popcorn.
the Squid is called this way because it has many, many tentacles. but calling all those who come out of the Squid Academy on the same side is a bit like saying that holding an AK47 makes you a terrorist
You think anyone from Goldman Sachs has the Greek peoples best interests at heart? They will strip mine that country until there is nothing left of it. And that is a provable fact. GS is the foremost terrorist organization on the planet (with JPM a close second).
Speaking of things that need to be burnt to the ground...
Is it possible that your hosts at Zerohedge came out of the Squid Academy?
http://nymag.com/guides/money/2009/59457/
Just because you were schooled at Squid Academy does not make you loyal to the Squid in any way, shape, or form, whatsoever.
Looking forward to the Soros vs. Squid battle. Pass the popcorn, will ya?
Draghi is a terrorist and he can't even hold an AK47.
why not? he is an Italian national born 1947. I would not know why not, at least for sure not after his military service
in other words: Juncker is right (and, as usual, used the wrong wording):
Nobody is going to renegotiate the treaties just because a freshly appointed government says so
It would need at least a full resolution of the Greek Parliament and perhaps two other countries just to get all participants back to the negotiating table. Until then, the treaties are just that, as usual: a "take it or leave it" agreement among sovereigns
note that the debt issue and the treaties regarding budgets are two different, separate things
Treaties are just meaningless pieces of paper, just like contracts, if they are not honored.
Hell the USA breaks their treaties all of the time. We burned domestic oil against the Kissinger Saudi agreements of 1973.
Greece will repudiate the treaties and repudiate the debt.
They are just politically posturing to place Germany in the role of the one whom rejects any compromise.
Actually they've been quite successful.
I don't know about breaking contracts, it's not something that is lightly done, in my world. similarly, breaking a treaty (which still has nothing to do with the debt) instead of just not complying fully... is also not done lightly
While I may disagree with the morality of this whole debacle...and I believe that it is immoral concerning both parties involved...my feelings do not change the reality about it...NOT ONE IOTA....pun intended.
yes and no. I do not understand it completely, and probably no one does, but there seems to be a parallel universe of ideas. Sometimes ideas get legs and spread, sometimes they even get wings...So by participating in the debate, you potentially influence the outcome. You think government trolls would be on the internet if it was not so ? Or on a more positive note, you seem to be a decent chap, please continue to contribute. You never know who is reading ZH.
"we have agreements with Greece and NOT WITH A GOVERNMENT - and these agreements have to be adhered to." ~ Kauder
So this reads as that the Merkel led German Government does not recognize the legitamacy of the democratically elected Government in Greece.
It seems as Germany is posturing as the de facto legitamite Government in Greece and is now dictating.
Now that is quite an interesting position for the Germans to take.
If I were leading Greece then I'd tell Germany to put it where the Sun does not shine...and without the K-Y JellyTM .
Kauder is clearly living in a fantasy land.
If the people of Greece want to default, nobody can stop them defaulting short of invading Greece and confiscating Greek assets at gun point.
Greece WILL default.
Greece WILL default... IF the Greek Parliament authorizes it's appointed government to proceed to do so, with a national law. otherwise... not
It would be illegal and unconstitutional for a Greek government to proceed to a default without Parliamentary authorization
There is a strong Majority government in the Greek Parliament, dude.
It is not a loose coalition as in times past. And yes they have an agenda, with widespread public support...a mandate.
You can deny the eventuality at your own peril if you choose.
Or you can hedge your bets and profit from this.
The Euro is cooked. The European Union is splintering, fracturing, before your eyes.
Hedge accordingly.
So what happens when there is a sovereign debt repayment that Greece can't make -- because their account has 0?
Does the Greek Parliment have to authorize their bank account to be zero?
A "technicality" which the ISDA will invent a new euphemism for (which will be something other than "default").
You know damned well that they cannot play that charade forever.
The Credit Default Swaps will have to take affect.
They allowed it to happen to Argentina.
What are they going to do when Italy, Portugal, or Spain begin the process to repudiate their debts? When they see the success of Greece then they will follow.
If the ISDA is to retain any credibility then they will have to declare a default.
The costs of the ISDA becoming incredible will just serve to demonstrate how insane this market is. Then the markets themselves lose credibility, trust, and confidence.
The end result is the same, euphemisms, or, no euphemisms.
"If the ISDA is to retain any credibility then they will have to declare a default. "
you know what? FUCK THE ISDA AND ALL DERIVATIVE BETS ;-)
that stuff belongs banned, the way it was until 1999
But the REALITY is that it is NOT banned and is even ENCOURAGED.
And I will celebrate the day that the entire World Financial Markets are imploded as a result of it as it will be the beginning of a return to honesty, integrity, and morality.
I and they know they can't indefinitely but the ISDA would face being "S&P'd" by the next AG or the loss of its self-regulatory authority if it crossed the US Treasury and FED like that. The imperative is to maintain the status quo (until they cannot) if Greece won't fold, then another lesser entity will have to fold because an ECB insolvency would negatively impact the FED (despite the short term pop in USD).
He is in denial. He is grasping at straws, looking at the technicalities which will not pan out instead of seeing the dismal reality which will befall the EU..
It is sad. But all fantasies will come to an end. Then the ugly truth of the inherent fraud will become apparent and that will be a day of celebration.
Of course this will also happen to the USA at the very end. I am not gloating by any means. But the corruption and fraud must cease if there is to be any hope of rebuilding.
is your question serious or a reference to the King_Canute_and_the_waves story? my point - the same as Juncker's, I guess - is that the Greek Parliament has not spoken yet
and in fact it's waiting until his appointed governenment has ended this meeting tour all around Europe
No.
What I am saying is a default is not a democratic decision when the bank has a zero balance.
For example, Greece gets cut off the end of this month. Next month when Greece has to redeem her bonds, she has a little north of 1 Billion available, and thus doesn't have the funds to pay the bills.
The Greek Parliment had nothing to do with this decision. It was a simple decision of math.
If your bill is 3€ and you have 1€ -- you just defaulted, even if the Greek Parliment votes to NOT default, if they cash isn't there -- its a default.
"What I am saying is a default is not a democratic decision when the bank has... "
hmm... are you mirroring Juncker? Fascist Juncker? ;-)
Lol
While your anaology is off -- and you know its off -- I can tell you've had a hard day. I'll let it slide today.
They are being offered assured credit, to pay the other loans, and rejecting it, voluntarily.
nope. a treaty is ratified by Parliament. a government is just the appointed executor of the Parliament's will...
Leg ... Leg-itamacy
Leg ... Leg-al
If agreements and treaties are between governments, and not between countries, then the USA would still be dropping A-bombs on Japan, as the Abe govt didn't sign a surrender document with Obuma.
Legal treaties are between countries, not between governments. The governments just have constitutional authority, after swearing in, for the term of the Govt, to enter into legal treaties on behalf of the country.
They represent the country when they do that, not a government.
It's why democracy doesn't work when the population is full of idiots, as they will vote for anyone who may sell them to debt slavers, without them giving a stuff about the implications and legal obligations that follow.
Hence democracy is not really the problem, it's the idiots in the population who vote for constitutional govts, that will over time wreck the country's future.
The Constitution is changeable only via these same idiots voting for the proposed changes in a referendum ... see a terminal problem with that yet?
Awe fuck you, you gran provocateur.
Expecting me to pay for stuff that occured before I was born is as asinine as expecting the Greeks that aren't born yet to pay for stuff that the corrupt EU political class has done there.
Take your shitlibdom and shove it right up my ass.
Herr Hans -
it might come as a shock, but the world doesnt revolve around you ... au contraire, there are bills to pay and unwritten agreements to honor ... we go down ALL TOGETHER ... do you dig?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/greece-spain-helped...
YES, i do held someone like you, accountable for the crimes your grandfather committed ... you are not someone who has passed the recorrection test ...
I could care less who you hold accountable -- whether its me, Frau Merkel or the Eastern Bunny.
You. Won't. Get. Me. To. Pay. For. Shit.
Cash + stacking = me wanting the whole thing to go down "together." Maybe you missed my first post on here -- I WANT THE SYSTEM TO BURN TO THE GROUND. The Greek Banks as well as the German ones.
Holding me accountable for stuff that occured before I was born makes as little sense as me holding you accountable for the atrocities your forefathers committed.
Oh yeah, you are fucking stupid. Just thought I would let you know and I hold your mother personally responsible for your stupidity. Gas yourself and whatever recorrection test you are talking about.
"You. Won't. Get. Me. To. Pay. For. Shit."
thats why i keep telling you are stupid ... it is not me amigo ... you really think i have that power? i just happened to know that you personally are fucked ... comprendre?
you, accountable for the crimes your grandfather committed
Arius and other O'Zero fans understand it's a corollary of 'You didn't create this'.
Personally fucked?
hahahahahhahahahaha
You think that we are beaten and weak or something? In the history of asinine statements I have never heard one this asinine. Listen princess, you want to strurt around ZH acting like you have a huge e-Penis, and then say something as FUCKING EGREGIOUSLY STUPID as what you just said, because you think pulling the WWII card will put me down and make me cow-down to your shitty asinine statement!? LET ME EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU IN A METAPHORE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND. I AM SURE THERE ARE GUYS THAT HAVE FINGERED YOU IN THE ASS LONG ENOUGH UNTIL YOU EVENTUALLY LET THEM FUCK IT. AND NOW WITH YOUR PITHY LITTLE ARGUMENT YOU THINK YOU'VE GOT ME BENT OVER WITH YOUR FINGER IN MY ASS THINKING I'M GOING TO LET YOU DO THE SAME. I AM NOT LIKE YOU ARIUS -- YOU WILL NOT FUCK ME IN THE ASS -- I WILL NOT PAY FOR YOUR BUTT HURT 70 YEAR OLD SHIT -- THE GREEKS SHOULD NOT PAY FOR WHAT IS GOING ON NOW.
YOU ARE A NAZI !!!
being a NAZI you are personally fucked ... you dig???
I stack and I have cash. Explain to me how I am fucked. *in detail* if your superior Greek brain -- fed with Feta Cheese and Olive Oil can put together sentences that long.
You stack and have your cash ,,, you really believe the Federalies are going to let the NAZIS enjoy their stolen goods???? you are not re-educated Hans ,,,
Posession is 9/10ths of the law. I possess it, so --- fuck you.
tell that to the Federalies ... pray to God there is a Neo Nazi investigating your case ...
Federalies -- no such thing here dude. Tough luck.
not that you know ... but what do you know right???
Obviously more than you. Keep smoking the weed. Seriously.
A butt nazi? Sounds serious.. Sounds more like an Anti-Debt nazi.. He is dangerous to the status quo..
Once it "burns to the ground," you will have the attempt at a one-world money system.
you are losing him there ... just tell him to watch channel N24 for re-education
Living in Germany I see, yet hating germans to the core.
Typical greek, loving german money, but does not want any strings attached.
well not exactly, i am being paid by American US Dollars ... and NO I do not live in Germany ...
bowever, I can smell a NAZI when I see one ... YES you are correct - there is NO lost love there ...
Of course I am correct. You just hate Germany, and your hatred is increased by the fact that they don't want to give you easy money anymoe.
Now you have to live in your own misery. Now you would have to face the ugly reality of the corruption in your country.
But that is not what you want, because that would be hard work. It would require self-reflection.
Maybe the greek society can't change, but that would be up to you.
Leave the Euro. Take your lifes in your own hands.
I expect the Russians and Chinese to seriously fuck with their plans re; one (western) world monetary system. A one world monetary system where the current Chinese and Russian governemnts are kept out of the loop cannot happen. These governments, I assume, are forward looking enough to prevent this from happen, or at least creating enough chaos to attempt and prevent such a disaster (for them).
They would do it to save us, but to save themselves, thus saving us in the process.
Once it "burns to the ground," you will have the attempt at a one-world money system.
Probably, but I doubt tptb will have the infrastructure available to actually pull it off.
Lol, our forefathers showed those pathetic Greek losers how things get done in he 1940ies when the Greeks thought it is a good idea to turn against us. There is nothing to be ashamed of anyway. Now they turn against us Germans again and again they will lose big time. Shows you how stupid Greeks are in general, incapable to learn anything from history.
well, talk to our Neo Nazi herr Hans, he would agree with your point of view.
I THROW UP ALL OVER these nazis views ...
P.s. dont get too excited from the support of other neo nazis
I know, it´s shameful for the Greeks that they couldn´t even hold their country for 2 weeks against a small part of the German army. Shows you that Greeks have always been underachievers, not only today.
I THROW UP ALL OVER these nazis views
Quite understandable, if i were Greek i did throw up too to be one.
So which wars did Germany win?
World War I ?.......NO!
World War II?......NO!
You have the nerve to call Germany a country when you are still paying compensation, erecting monuments and saying sorry to the Jewish people and yet you do not have the decency to make good the vile damage you inflicted on Greece and its people during WWII.
You are the shameful pigs that locked women and children in a school and burned it to the ground or have you not been taught about that?
It is better that you read what your own philosophers have written about the Greeks before you write such utter nonsense.
The Greeks decided to join the war of the English against us at free will. They could have remained neutral. What happened is their own fault.
So if the allies had decided to burn every German alive for starting a war that would have been your people's fault as well?
Your reasoning is not even worth answering to any further.
You´re perfectly right. We Germans were quite lucky that the Muricans needed us so badly in their new (cold) war against Russia. Besides, the allies committed a genocide against 10 million Germans after WWII. So, lesson learned, we Germans better avoid a war against most of the world at a time.
So if the allies had decided to burn every German alive for starting a war that would have been your people's fault as well?
Your reasoning is not even worth answering to any further.
The US and UK firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg come to mind (25K and 50K civilian dead). And do you know how many people were burnt alive in Tokyo? A hundred thousand. Was that any better than dropping nukes? No, not really. You can argue atrocities and assign blame all you want but the facts are cold and brutal. In war, the winners love to gloss over their own savage blood lust and revenge. I guess that's human nature. Fact is today that any moral high ground we had was thrown to the curb long ago in the West.
Bullshit!
At the time of the German invasion, Greece was at war with Italy, following the Italian invasion on 28 October 1940. The Greeks defeated the initial attack and the counter-attack of March 1941. When Operation Marita began on 6 April, the bulk of the Greek army was on the Albanian border, from which the Italians were trying to enter Greece. German troops invaded through Bulgaria, creating a second front. Greece had already received a small though inadequate reinforcement from British Empire forces, in anticipation of the German attack [THE ITALIANS, GERMAN ALLIES, ATTACKED GREECE FIRST] but no more help was sent after the invasion began. The Greek army found itself outnumbered in its effort to defend against both Italian and German troops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Greece
Well, i don´t think that an English wikipedia article tells the truth here. First of all Italy and Germany were no allies in that attack of the Italians against Greece, the German government had even begged the Italians not to go to war on the Balkans. After the defeat of the Italians by the Greeks the German government asked the Greek government again to stay neutral but the Greek government allready started talks with the British empire about bringing British troops to Greece. In late 1940 the Greek government promised the Germans to stay neutral again, but soon after that the British started deploying troops in mainland Greece and on Crete with the consent of the Greecs. Since the Brits had declared war on Germany in 1939 this was nothing less than a Greek declaration of war against Germany. In March 1941 the German government again asked the Greek government to stay neutral and throw out the British troops but they didn´t. Those British troops that the Greecs let in their country was the reason for the German attack and nothing else. If the Greecs had maintained their neutrality in this war nothing would have happened. But the Greecs wanted war and they got what they had asked for.
Yes lay it all on the Greeks. They got what they asked for.
In this deluded Nazi's world, this should have happened:
Hitler: Sorry ol chap Meta, disregard that [failed] invasion. Stay neutral.
Metaxas: OK NP buddy. No harm, no foul.
Can't wait to read your newsletter Hitler Was A Hero Who Wanted to Free Europe. Please send me subscription.
No. Axis power Italy invaded. The British moved into North Africa. Stuck in the middle, Greece could not avoid it.
All that is nothing to what Alexander the Great did. That vile butcherer of the persians.
And he's still a hero in Greece.
Go figure.
And he was not even a Greek actually.
There's nothing to be ashamed of anyway-
Actually, Germans was plenty ashamed until very recently. What happened in the past was verboten, and wearing German colors was frowned upon. Jail if publicly denying the Holocaust, oh yeah, German's were plenty ashamed. It's the German mindset... very structured and rules oriented, which is thier greatest strength and greatest weakness.
You want to talk stupid, delaying the Russian invasion until the winter b/c Germany had to make a detour to little greece. Yeah, that worked out well. You sure showed the Allies.
I would beg to differ Wolferl. The Greeks did fight valiantly even though they and everyone else knew they did not stand a chance in hell. You gotta admit, that takes guts. They did much better than the French. Oh yeah and based on the outcome, their decision to fight against you was rather wise. Credit where credit is due.
The fact that the Greeks decided to have a civil war after WWII is an entirely different story which highlights the other issues of the "Greek Condition".
The Greeks defeated the desorganized Italians and thought they are invincible. Besides that the British promised to bring 9 army divisions but in the end less than 3 showed up, that fled Greece in panic a few days after the fighting had begun. The Brits were throwing the Greeks under the German bus by purpose, and those stupid Greeks havn´t realized this fact up to this very day. Just like allways, the Greeks were in a delusion and made a very, very bad decision and had to suffer badly. It´s the same story today.
I am not certain they had any real hope of beating the Germans, even in their own minds. Very few nations, if any, could beat Germany at the height of its power, let alone tiny Greece. Yet they fought and they fought bravely.
As for their choice of sides, I still say they chose wisely. Turkey was probably the smartest though. They kinda played both sides but ever actually entered the war.
They didn't decide to have a civil war. Britain incited it, having made the secret agreements with Stalin, and Churchill decided he must crush the "communists" (even though they fought side by side with British vs. the Nazis and thus were rightfully expecting to have a voice in government through democratic means) and used Nazis and Nazi collaborators to help him do it. They fucking strafed Athens the assholes (called the "Dekemvriana"). Which is what partly wolferl may be referring to that the British used Greece. Greeks are very well aware of this history. There has never been a reckoning with this and has caused the nasty left-right schism that still exists today.
Yes, I read all about that in Nato's Secret Armies. Very interesting read and it contains a lot of info on this part of history.
After so many years of extreme hardship, listening to someone "incite" a civil war would not be high on my list of priorities, no matter which side I was on. There had to be a deeper desire to follow through.
P.S. Late edit.......and by the use of Greek words etc., it appears you are Greek. I hate to break this to you but some things are actually the Greeks' fault.
As you can see I'm not one-sided. i support the Greek people and their efforts whenever I truly and objectively feel they are in the right.
I understand your point of view and agree that you are not morally responsible for actions of your forefathers. Perhaps the argument for WWII reparations is not strong, especially because the damages are almost impossible to calculate now. But I don't see how anyone can deny that Germany ought to pay back the forced loans Greece made to it during the occupation. These have an exact price. It's not like loans can be ignored if not paid back on time. After all, Greece is probably stuck paying back loans from decades ago.
Those loans are denominated in Reichsmark. Todays value: ZERO.
(And i do not even start talking about things like statut of limitations, the 1960 treaty between Germany and Greece, billions and billions of aid from Germany to Greece via EC/EU since 1882 and much more)
The leftist government in Greece has no stomach for real austerity, Drachma style.. They cannot do what they were elected to do, it takes massive brass balls to take on the troika and their own people.. If it does happen color me surprised..
They might try a Assange or Strauss-Khan manuever on him where an unknown student form Sydney accuses Varoufakis of sex crimes.
The "Establishment" will stop at nothing to stop these guys pretty soon
[sarc] Well, let's be optimistic and BTFD: half-baked is better than not baked at all, so Germany is definitely softening it's stance! [/sarc]
And Germany is perfectly right; it's half-baked. The full-baked proposal is 'We want full 100% write-off. Period!'
It's a very good lesson to Varoufakis for his hesitation and prevarication. But anyway, he's fighting a good fight; keeping fingers crossed.
So BBG is reporting on all the Greek miasma this morning and of course, since the FinMin is the guy telling the Germans and French to go fugumselves, he has to be portrayed as a radical. Right?
Of course! He's the anti-Christ to the NWO in the manifestation of the EU! Tearing the very fabric of the financing ponxzi of the EU apart.
So they describe him as a ... get ready...
A Libertarian Marxist
Now how fucking bad is that? If it's upsetting the system, it's gotta be for our USA USA USA viewers (The Propaganda Machine in Full Bloom) ....
An evil ....
Tea Partier or
Libertarian
Libertarian Marxist is an Oxymoron, truly a term inducing cognitive dissonance
Libertarian Marxist
Ok, now that's funny.
Wow.
Anything like a Republican Nazi?
Let me guess, he likes the circus too?
The bearded lady perhaps?
You guys gotta remember that "Libertarian" means something very different in Europe than it does here, and has for over 100 years. The label of Libertarian is typically associated with Syndicalism on the other side of the pond and connotes the anarchic Left. Reading any Goldman, Kropotkin, et. al. makes that pretty clear.
Just as the label of Liberal has been stolen from freedom-loving individualists in America, so, too, has the American Libertarian movement been successful in wrenching the term Libertarian away from the Syndicalist Left, at least on this continent.
The cognitive dissonance resulting from constantly redefining these terms every 50 odd years, however, is inarguable. It's why something like the Trivium method of critical thinking is so important; can't get anywhere if we're not all on the same page with something as basic as definitions.
I am over 50 and a have a BA in Political Science and have never heard the term "syndicalism".
Go figure...
I'm a tradesman, and syndicalism is an old term.
Anarcho-syndicalism was part of my youthful philosophy.
Now I just don't care.
Yes. Thanks. I was just reading up on the term.
Fuck you junkers. Here in America we call that political view "Communist" and "Marxist", not "syndicalism".
I think syndicalism is what differentiates Bakunin from Marx.
Q: "What's the difference between an anarcho-syndicalist and an anarcho-capitalist?"
A: "A contract."
Ba Dum - TSHHH
Seriously, though, I really wish more American libertarians read anarcho-communist literature, or even knew who Mikhail Bakunin was. Same goes for the AnComs vis a vis Samuel Edward Konkin III, but I suspect many of them have, given the embrace many European communes give to alternative currencies like Bitcoin. I don't count myself among their ranks, but we fight the same enemy and will inevitably have to work together if we're to succeed in making our (many) common goals a reality.
No offense, really, but where did you go to college?
They taught that to us way down in the South at the Univ. of the South, circa 1969.
Haha...no worries friend. It is possible I simply forgot the term as it is never used in American politics.
Western Washington University, class of '84.
I am under 50 and have no subject-appropriate degree, and I have heard of syndicalism. Perhaps you ought to ask for your money back?
all i care about is, will my wife let me use "syndicalism" in scrabble?
+1 it's a strange thing, yes, but all classic political terms get transmogrifed, whenever they arrive in America. liberal becomes "Left", libertarian becomes "Right"
the problem is that the US has a duopoly "market" for elections. there can be only two major contendents for one seat, if only one seat per district is available for grabs
and so everything has to be compressed to either "this" or "that", the "douche" or the "shit sandwitch", Left OR Right, You Are Either With Me Or Against Me
Yes, it is strange. America has come full circle. We are right back where we started.
In a nutshell, it is "taxation without representation".
'Taxation without representation' was a ploy slogan. Stealing your money, is 'stealing your money' with or without representation. Our government was tied to the hip with commerce, its only true source of revenue. But today, government has fooled the people into believing that they the servants have become the masters of the masters, and can help themselves into anything they wish. Your property, your children, your rights, and your life. The only true thing you may save is your soul. Don't become part of the problem.
I considered it was just double-think.
Everything has to be dumbed down a bit in America. This doesn't necessarily mean that having 50 parties in other nations serves any real purpose. Arguing the finer points of difference between a syndicalist, a Marxist or a Trotskiist is really not very productive.
The only real choices we have in America, as the comedian George Carlin used to say is: "Paper or plastic?"
Years ago (and perhaps even today in some areas) when you left the supermarket, you were asked if you wanted your groceries bagged in a paper or plastic bag.
Do you mean the anarcho-syndicalists of Spain?
The idea was good in theory.
"Libertarian Marxist is an Oxymoron"
not in europe. here it means: 1. weak state 2. left-wing politics.
plus, if the curious readers want to comprehend the greek story, better stay away from ideological mumbo jumbo, not relevant.
+100
No, 'libertarian marxist' isn't necessarily an oxymoron. Historically, many anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists referred to themselves as such. That was how Murray Rothbard was originally exposed to the term 'libertarian' (though he usually preferred to describe himself as an 'anarcho-capitalist').
Standing by for the..."if Greece doesn't perform, the entire global financial system will be in jeopardy" threat.
Oxymoron or no, the message gets across.
BBG readers, while being more clever than most, are still susceptible to the big lie.
They see the linkage of two words with drastically different ideas impossible to reconcile, but the seed is planted and will take root.
You might see it repeated in the Economist next week.
give the guy a break-he is an academic!
is Merkel part of the system? is Germany the People part of the system? you have to define "the system", first
(for example for me, bloomberg, both the news service and the man, are part of "the system")
odious debt
oh. my. goodness. I remember that poster, but I can't place it. you did change the wording, didn't you? is it about WWI's "Rape of Belgium"?
WB, do a cartoon where Uncle Sam is tied to a chair and the Banksters are making torture on him.
The cut line could be: "Admit I control the world."
It would be most revealing.
If I could draw, I'd have the Red Shield waterboarding Uncle Sam.
Next time I am in HK I am going to try to look you up.
Peace.
The Germans are simply clueless. It is obvious that they are reacting and not in the driver seat. Why don't they make a plan that works? Answer: Because Merkel does what her transatlantic advisors tell her. This strange woman is the most overrated person on the planet.
My prediction is, that it will turn out in 2015 that she is a CIA-controlled transatlantic mole in the business to destroy her own country.
Talk about "talking out of both corners of your mouth". When the Greek government bends over for the Troika, the later claims that the government "speaks for Greece." When a new government comes in and tells the Troika to go pound sand, the later - incredibly - states that they "have an agreement with Greece and not the government".
Is it possible to be an even bigger disingenuous as hole than that? If someone treated me that I would probably bust their nose.
I'm sure you speak for many of us, but until the Greeks actually light the blue touch paper, nothing very much will happen. We need a similar movement to Syriakis in the UK and one that hauls the bankers into the courts, not any old courts, but special ones set up to fact track them and their servants into the prison system. We need to invoke the Nuremburg Principles all over again, so that the "I was merely following orders" and general pleading of the headaches is not allowed and with legal representation set by the courts to avoid a bunch of legal shysters drawing things out forever.
Burn baby! Default! Trade with Russia. Don't pay them one thin eurodime of that odious debt. Bring back the drachma and back it with olive oil and time shares in Mykonos. I'll buy that stuff for shizzle.
Merkal demands young greek men rub her lamb chops
yikes, they'd probably rather do that thing greeks are usually known to do
I wouldn't envy them. Physical contact with Merkel is a less than alluring prospect.
it was a bad poster in 2011 and it's still a bad one in 2015
The Euro is still a bad idea.
But keep worshipping that false idol.
you are right, Greece would have been soooooo much better off with the Drachma /S
and it would have been so much fun shorting the Drachma against all other currencies, and screw the Greek with some pocket change, eh?
but keep attacking the wrong symbols
Are you kidding, Greece is bancrupt.
Greece is not competitive within the Euro. That is why they needed to cheat to get in.
Do you understand that you can't have the whole world in one currency?
Why not?
Because countries have different economic realities and different ways of living.
"Do you understand that you can't have the whole world in one currency? "
and do you understand that it's called EUR? does not sound like the whole world, Europe