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Is It Socialism Or Just Failure?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,

It’s all still about Greece, and that makes sense, if nothing else Syriza is a breath if not a tornado of fresh air. But those too pass. The question at the end remains: did anything really change? It’s quite possible, don’t get me wrong, but Tsipras and Vanoufakis are busy looking out for the people who voted for them, not the rest of the Europe, or the world for that matter. And neither should they.

They’ve already gotten good response from Obama, from France and Britain, and if only for that reason they will get more. But you have to understand what they are trying to do: getting a better life for their own people, and that’s hard enough all by itself. The best they can do for now, hopefully, is that. But Greece is merely a symptom of something bigger and deeper that is going wrong.

There’s an ideological battle happening between money and wellbeing, between people and banks. Western leaders have so far chosen to protect money and banks, instead of people and their wellbeing, and that’s why we find ourselves where we do. Choosing money before people can only end in the demise of the system that makes such a choice. That, however, is apparently terribly hard to comprehend.

And that got Greece where it is. That’s why Europe set up a ‘union’ that shares a currency but that has no provisions to transfer funds from – even temporarily – weak regions from stronger ones. Even the US has that, or it would have imploded long ago. It’s the kind of thing that makes you wonder if maybe the EU wasn’t set up from the start so Germany could exploit the Mediterranean.

But even that is not the core issue. It’s money over people that is. And Brussels should not just be ashamed for what they’ve done to Greece, they should be driven out of town with tar and feathers. That’s not how they see it, though. Brussels, in the voice of Eurogroup head Dijsselbloem, when he met with new Greek FinMin Varoufakis, had the audacity – and stupidity, his job is up for grabs – to point out that much progress had been made. As the troika demands have turned Greece into a third world nation. That’s known as progress.

If you think about it, it’s not much different from how US policies have turned Detroit, and many other places, into semi-hellholes. It’s fine if there’s a difference between West Virginia and the Hamptons, it’s just about how big that difference gets.

It all comes down to a system that is failing spectacularly. Failing, that is, even if it’s intentional: there are plenty Darwinists and neo-liberals who would swear the poor only get what they deserve. Just as Brussels apparently saw the Greeks: let ‘em bleed, let ‘em suffer, let ‘em die, it’s only because they borrowed too much.

I can’t seem to figure out the logic there: if they borrowed so much, why are they unemployed and miserable and without health care? The answer to that of course is that they didn’t, it’s 90%+ money that flowed into western banks to make up for their gambling losses. It should by now be a non-issue, because it’s so glaringly obvious, but the narrative is strong.

This is not about Greece, this is about ideology, about economics as a belief system, a system so blind it sacrifices real people and proclaims that is a good thing: ‘much progress had been made’. Some people are saying: you need to help these people who end up on the wrong side of the economic tracks, while others invoke Darwin.

But you need to ask how they got where they are, or you’ll never solve the issue, you’ll just need up murdering people. And whether they deserve it or not, murder is not legal, Mr. Dijsselbloem. And neither is using your job to put people into misery, not even if your economic beliefs say that’s alright.

In the US, a lot of people complain about how the country has turned into a socialist bastion. And even taking into account that the word has a very different connotation stateside than it does in Europe and other parts of the world, it’s simply not correct, it doesn’t fit.

The US, like western Europe, is in the midst of a massive failure of its brand of capitalism. There are no free markets, no price discovery, there are asset bubbles being blown with money that belongs to our grandchildren as people are thrown into despair, while others attain unparalleled riches, and the whole grossly distorted movie is fed to everyone by a well-oiled spin machine.

Yes, 40 million Americans are on food stamps, 100 million are not even officially in the labor force, and perhaps as much as most Americans are receiving some sort of government assistance, but that doesn’t make it socialism. It makes it a failed capitalist system. Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares, and that’s not what those US government handouts are about. They’re about keeping people quiet in a failed system.

Europe understands the ‘caring society’ definition of socialism much better. Or it used to. Now it has to face the ‘New Greeks’, elected to stand up against a Europe that does not care one bit. That only wants Greece to obey its budget and bailout rules, over the bodies of its own people. The Greeks have democratically voted not to take that anymore.

Can you imagine what would happen in the US if the government pay-outs were halted? If there were no more foodstamps? The epic failure of the economic system would come to light in too many ways to mention. But one thing’s for sure, it would create one big mess of chaos and unrest that would sweep across the streets of the country like a tidal wave.

Nothing to do with socialism, that’s a political ideology, like capitalism is. There’s not much between them, once you put people first in either.

Still, for now, we all live in a failed economic system, and we refuse to admit it, edged on by our self-serving leaders and media. But how is it not obvious? It is in Greece, after all.

 

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Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:47 | 5741423 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Its satanism.

.

Full on attack on everything that is pure, natural and good. As above, so below.

.

'Welcome to planet earth - its beautiful, but ruled by cunts.'

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:50 | 5741451 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

no such thing as satan, keep your fairy tales to yourself.

what it is, is STATANISM

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:58 | 5741480 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Satan invaded your pants as you made that ridiculous statement. Perhaps you'll be wiser next time?

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:14 | 5741543 Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

"US policies have turned Detroit, and many other places, into semi-hellholes."

 

 


Should America Save Detroit?

A lifetime of education from America’s media elite, such as MSNBC, CNBC, NPR, PBS, the NYT, the Washington Post, CBS, NBC, ABC, and CNN, have given me the foundation and principles that empower me to think for myself and thereby figure out why we can’t let Detroit go bankrupt.

Detroit is too big to fail.

Republicans are turning Detroit into a plantation.

Don't blame the victims of greedy capitalists.

“To attack Detroit is to attack black.”

Only racists would oppose a bail out.

We are all in this together.

It takes a village (a government).

We have to move forward.

Somebody has to be in charge.

There is a Constitutional mandate to promote the general welfare.

Government rightly has the power to implement any good idea.

When we're all on the same page, everyone benefits.

Everyone has a right to good healthcare.

Everyone has a right to a living wage.

Everyone has a right to good nutrition.

Just think of it as reparations for slavery.

Do it for the children.

Do it for Trayvon.

What if it were Obama's kids?

What if it were your kids?

If it helps just one child, no cost is too great.

In a free-market, who would save a dying child?

It would be bad if George Bush did it, but we can trust Obama.

Obama is The One.

Obama! Give us our orders!

Only racists distrust Obama.

Don’t let Republicans make a liar out of Obama.

The alternative is chaos.

The alternative is anarchy.

What would Jesus do?

After all, Jesus would be a Democrat.

Detroit has done everything right. It has been ruled by Democrats and unions for 51 years, and ruled by black mayors for 49 years. It even has the 3rd highest income tax of any city in America. Therefore, the problems of Detroit must be part of a vast right wing conspiracy. As an example, consider how the internet has allowed the spread of right wing hate speech from people like this guy. He says stuff like:

No man has a right to the fruits of another mans labor.

Government dependency is the new plantation.

When we’re all free to pursue our own interests, everyone benefits.

In a free-market, children wouldn’t be dying.

It takes a village – but not a government.

Nobody has to be in charge.

The legitimate purpose of government, is to minimize government.

Sooner or later, socialists run out of other people’s money.

Individualism made America great.

The world is the result of our individual choices.

America is the least racist country in the world.

The myth of Obama is busted.

Progressivism = Liberalism + Fascism

Progressivism violates the Soul of Humanity.

You can instantly become the person you want to be.

Freedom is the Promise of Reality.

Now can you see the problem? These are the ideas on which America was founded, and we all know that America was founded on slavery. Such right wing hate speech is what scared all of the white people into leaving Detroit. It is like something out of Atlas Shrugged, in which the most productive people in America left the system and formed their own society. Therefore, the solution must come from the federal government because, while it is easy to leave a city, it would be much harder for people to leave the country, and Obama’s DHS would stop them if they tried – and rightly so.

What about when it is no longer Obama’s DHS? I know it is hard to imagine how America could elect anyone who is not a Democrat ever again – but that is why we need global governance, so that wealthy individuals cannot escape their debt to their country and to the world.

As you can see, a lifetime of education from America’s media elite have given me the foundation and principles that empower me to think for myself.

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:26 | 5741598 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's actually both.

 

Socialism promotes failure by allowing the mediocre to survive and "reproduce" and increase their impact on the economy. This is the fatal flaw of Socialism from the onset.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:34 | 5741624 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Man exploits man each and every time in all these systems.

.

I imagine in some galaxy far away that this shit on our planet is so beneath them...low level uselessness.

.

Lets go to work Monday to friday, 9-5, to work off a 30 yr mortgage and our kids tution and then let me watch tv - thats it eh, thats the goal? We made it? we did it!

.

Brain melt downwnn

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:35 | 5741637 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I'm not sure how people say something is exploitation when those people willingly live in that fashion.

 

No one forced those people to take out such mortgages, or to spend their free time watching TV. No one certainly forced them to work that 9-5 shit shop "job". I find it's the people with the lowest expectations in life that live like that. People who really are not alive in the first place.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:31 | 5741819 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

I hear what your saying, no one twists anyones arm.

.

But all it takes is the top level few to be the exploiters  -those at the 'top of the pyramid' because the lower level are easily manipulated and brainwashed.

They didnt give us a fair chance and dont want to. Nikola Tesla had plans for free energy. They want to mine the moon, yet peope are fucking starving. Some fuck makes 61 million severance - 1 guy(Target CEO)....15,6000 split 56 million. That is fuckin gay. Examples are endlesssssssss

 

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:32 | 5741827 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The only exploitation I see in the world these days is taxation/fiat. The rest is either a result of taxation/fiat, or just not really exploitation at all.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 00:04 | 5741953 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

"Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares,"

Right, just ask any venezuelian if they care for toilet paper.
Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:45 | 5743046 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

No is fault Maduro, comrade!

Is fault speculators!

...or maybe kulak!

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:03 | 5742717 Mediocritas
Mediocritas's picture

Sorry to hear about your eyes dude. Born blind or accident?

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:36 | 5741640 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Stupidest cut-and-paste diatribe ever.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:36 | 5741647 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I didn't even waste my time reading it. Certainly am not wasting my time clicking on those links.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:38 | 5741654 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Agreed.  I stopped after about five lines.  Wouldn't think of clicking in it.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:17 | 5741785 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Last paragraph,

"As you can see, a lifetime of education from America’s media elite have given me the foundation and principles that empower me to think for myself."

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:34 | 5741833 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I was born with the capability to think for myself.

 

I'm not sure what the fucking issue is with the rest of humanity. Perhaps they are missing part of their brain or something. I don't know...

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:41 | 5741656 Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

I think you must be taking it literally ...

ZHers used to get it right away ...

BTW, all of my satire is original.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:21 | 5742520 BigJim
BigJim's picture

You got green from me. I thought it was very amusing.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:41 | 5742846 Rhino
Rhino's picture

Poe's Law. Too many of us have heard or read serious people make those same arguements. 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 15:14 | 5743940 PTR
PTR's picture

I think you must be taking it literally ...

ZHers used to get it right away ...

BTW, all of my satire is original.

 

You were *this* close to me accusing you of being part of the 77th Battalion.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 05:00 | 5742330 Eirik Magnus Larssen
Eirik Magnus Larssen's picture

Many of the comments here genuinely make me despair for humanity.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:22 | 5742522 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Why? "Humanity" in the form of collectivism is gaining more and more control over how things are done... don't you like the result?

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 03:39 | 5742244 fr0thing
fr0thing's picture

Wow what an anti-white racist screed. So whites are to blame for all of our problems and all non-whites are helpless victims? Terrible.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:37 | 5741651 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

"Satan invaded your pants as you made that ridiculous statement. Perhaps you'll be wiser next time?"

ok, church lady (aka teamdepends), i will be sure to take your great wisdom under advisement!

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:09 | 5741525 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

There is and his handmaiden resides in the oval office.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:15 | 5741546 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Their are truths in those tales' - mixed in with lies, omissions and fabrications...

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:46 | 5741684 MarketAnarchist
MarketAnarchist's picture

Anyone who downvoted you, stacking, is a moron.  

Religion is just another form of statism.

 

God is the computer that is running this simulation, and it could give a fuck less about muhammed or jesus.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 02:38 | 5742177 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

some insecure people just have a psychological need to think, oh, i'm a christian, i'm one of the good guys - it's rubbish of course.

i wouldn't go so far as to say religion is a form of statism, though - the key difference is that statists impose their bad ideas on others through force. as far as religion, people can have whatever silly ideas they like, as long as they don't try to impose their ideas on others.

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 07:45 | 5742479 MarketAnarchist
MarketAnarchist's picture

Historically, relgious ideas were imposed through force on people. And even in modern times, tax exempt status is just a minor form statist-conferred advantage.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 09:17 | 5742586 franciscopendergrass
franciscopendergrass's picture

You mean like the inquisition, Spanish subjugation of natives,  sharia law, and ISIS

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 09:14 | 5742583 franciscopendergrass
franciscopendergrass's picture

Religion and the state are the same.  Parents indoctrinate children by taking them to church and telling them about sin, Jesus and salvation at an early age.  The state does the same thing by making kids go to school to get programmed and recite some pledge of allegiance at a young age when they have no concept what the damn thing means.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:46 | 5741685 MarketAnarchist
MarketAnarchist's picture

Anyone who downvoted you, stacking, is a moron.  

Religion is just another form of statism.

 

God is the computer that is running this simulation, and it could give a fuck less about muhammed or jesus.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:50 | 5743052 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

Religion need not necessarily have anything to do with the state.

Don't let your very healthy rejection of political authority evolve into a rejection of non-aggressive forms of authority (like religion, or family, or other traditional non-aggressive yet hierarchical social institutions). I.E., don't become John Stuart Mill!

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:03 | 5741738 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ stacking12321 Troll:

The history of the 'western' world up til the advent of Christ was ALWAYS a dictatorship of some kind..a clique w a leader + henchmen: Egyptian, followed by Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-persian,, Greek, then finally Roman. One miserable rotten dictatorship after the others, all with the same religion..worshipping the CREATION, [the sun god/ Lucifer] in one form or another. Since the advent of Christ the satanic rulers of this 'world' have tried again and again to set up a world Government. A "novus ordo seclorum" if you will . They have nearly succeeded. Their symbolism even rests upon the reverse of every "dollar bill" we circulate. today, w the all seeing eye of Lucifer at the top. Will it succeed? I do not know.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 02:29 | 5742171 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

@ Chupacabra-322 troll: 

the human tendency to worship idols, whether a golden cow, or jesus, or the dollar, is indeed a foul weakness among human beings.

i care not whether the criminals and aggressors call themselves satanists or christians, i will fight them either way.

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:50 | 5741453 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Potato/Potahto

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:46 | 5741676 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

A New World Order – is a transitioning the world from being under the Judeo/Christian world order to a Satanic/Luciferian world order. Moving the world from under the rule and worship of God, to Satan being worshipped as god.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:36 | 5741852 armageddon addahere
armageddon addahere's picture

"God rules in Heaven, money on earth. Even the devil dances for gold"

      -Swiss proverb

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 05:18 | 5742351 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

LOL!  Good to see you BLOTTO.

Exaclty, the only "-ism" left is banksterism, which is backed by satanism.  Kudos.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:11 | 5742506 doctor10
doctor10's picture

50% of the worlds assets are held by the top 0.1%.  its not just a USA problem. 

the top 0.1% now control all the "chokepoints" in finance, shipping, realestate/landlord, courts, utilites, regulation and taxation, insurance etc.

they have become too stupidly greedy for anyone to deal with them-and any one who does-and does so successfully  so as to become percieved as "beating" them financially, why they get a dose of FREEDOM! courtesy of the anglo-american military enforcement arm.

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:45 | 5741430 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares..."

Oh, really? No socialist system I've ever seen gives a flying fuck about anything but serving those in power by buying votes.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:52 | 5741459 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

It's about making the ones in power feel good about themselves while they take care of their peoples the way they take care of their pets.  About as heartless as one can get, treating people like dumb animals. 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:09 | 5741523 H. Perowne
H. Perowne's picture

Raul must be getting tired; all his inane bleating is starting to take a toll. His mask is starting to slip, giving us a nice view at the shallow statist underneath.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:20 | 5741570 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Socialists only care about other socialists. They build monuments to those they murder.

A enterprising farmer once decided he could save money by mixing sawdust into his cattle's feed. His scheme seemed to work perfectly in the beginning and over time he continued to add more and more sawdust into the feed, saving considerable money in the process. One day he went out to survey his herd and found them all dead. He threw his hands in the air in dispair, completely unable to understand how this could happen when he has just recently got to the point of feeding his cattle 100% sawdust. Obviously he needed better cows.

Progressives will continue to mix their socialist additives into our theoretically capitalist markets, all while they get weaker and weaker, the rhetoric will get louder and louder of the failures of capitalism. Capitalism is deficient as it can't take a little bit of collectivism. A dull knife is not a knife. Capitalism that is collectivised IS NOT capitalism.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 00:17 | 5741978 forwardho
forwardho's picture

Awsome comment, I regret I have but one up-vote for a statement of truth such as yours.

BRAVO!

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:47 | 5741433 surf0766
surf0766's picture

U.S. failed because of cronyism not capitalism. They are not one in the same.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:22 | 5741580 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

A progressive will NEVER admit that socialist policies fail...NEVER.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:12 | 5741764 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

And neither will a crony capitalist apparently.

 

All we need is "patience."

 

For a Few Trillion More...

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 00:36 | 5742018 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

The term crony capitalist is like saying free socialism or just corruption. It makes no sense and deliberately so. It's an attempt to corrupt the meaning of capitalism as they corrupt capitalism itself.

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:47 | 5741434 stant
stant's picture

Both

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:49 | 5741438 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Yep.  BOTH...

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:19 | 5741566 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Government is always doing things for reasons of preserving power, status, influence... even if it means welcoming back former Nazis. And look at the TARP Bailout, Future Plans for Bail Ins in Europe & USA, and look at the Waivers for Investigations & Prosecutions of TBTF Executives. They never wanted to see another Keating Five or Lincoln Savings & Loan... it was too damaging to Politicians and made Wealthy Powerful People Upset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_Trust_Corporation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis
- Between 1980 and 1994 more than 1,600 banks insured by the FDIC were closed or received FDIC financial assistance.[37]
- Between 1989 and mid-1995, the Resolution Trust Corporation closed or otherwise resolved 747 thrifts with total assets of $394 billion.[1]
- 5000 Executives we convicted in the S&L Crisis

Here is a very old example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification (but the French, English, American, and USSR only prosecuted hundreds of Nazis each at the most, Operation Paper Clip picked up 1500, and the Ratlines which benefited the Vatican and others let many Nazis Escape)

- In 1951 several laws were passed, ending the denazification. Officials were allowed to retake jobs in the civil service, with the exception of people assigned to Group I (Major Offenders) and II (Offenders) during the denazification review process.[78][79]

Now today in the news they are throwing a bone to OWS, End The FED Movement in Europe or who ever:

http://news.sky.com/story/1419819/ex-ss-man-to-face-trial-over-300000-mu...

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:00 | 5741726 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

However, the Criminal UNITED STATES, CORP. INC. empire is in the process of collapse. What we're witnessing today is Epic in nature when you consider the full context & scope of where we are at & what bought us here.

Absolutely Nothing will come between Total Complete Full Spectrum World Domination between the Megalomanics of the world who own the systems of Debt Bondage & Enslavement.

Its about ownership / Control. Nothing more. The Global Criminal Oligarch Cabal Bankster Intelligence Crime Syndicate own the Political, Economic, Education & Religious systems which control mankind. And, if even a whisper of a threat of losing control of those systems, the end result, for them at least would be the Sampson Option.
Mutual Destruction of mankind.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:00 | 5741495 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Systemic Lying? Systemic Corruption? Systemic Legislation to degrade accounting, auditing, financial ratings, Elections, Campaign Finance, Lobbying, Standardized Financial Instruments, Commercial, Investment & Savings & Loan Banks, Taxes... Rules about offshoring Capital, Rules about Vultures using LBOs & Mergers to take over companies and destroy them & their employees financial conditions.

How do you know if your leaders or Politicians are Lying? Their lips are moving.

How do you know if a Real Estate Broker or Financial Broker is giving you bad advice? Their Lips are moving.

- GALLUP CEO: 5.6% UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS ONE BIG LIE...
- The Fix is in? OPEC leader: Oil could shoot back to $200...
- Three-day rally pushes prices to 2015 highs...
- Snowden addresses Toronto students...
- Urges caution on new terror bill...
- NSA tweaks illustrate little change after revelations...
- Harry Reid, Accused of Fast-Tracking Visas to Chinese 'Investors'...

- NYT: In Christie's Career, Fondness for Luxe Benefits When Others Pay Bills...

- OBAMA VOWS BORDER FENCE -- IN OUTER SPACE?
- FAA starting to regulate business on moon...
- Mummy suggests brain surgery was carried out 3,600 years ago...

WTH?

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:50 | 5741449 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:55 | 5741705 spooz
spooz's picture

Ah, yes, the Iron Lady, who ushered in neoliberalism, along with its growing inequality, unemployment and stripping of social programs. The rise of the corporate state, with growing numbers waiting for the trickle down. The elites, of course, are so deserving of the spoils of globalization.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:11 | 5741762 Elliott Eldrich
Elliott Eldrich's picture

And the problem with neoliberalism is that eventually you run out of other people to blame.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:00 | 5741488 TheFreeLance
TheFreeLance's picture

So much to unpack here.

The EU and the Euro were "set up" to constrain a unified Germany -- in fact losing the DM was explicitly a price Germany paid for unification, the British and French were insistent on this. The Germans figured it was a good deal in that they were already debasing the DM somewhat by trading it for worthless East German marks and otherwise would have to shoulder the cost of boot-strapping the East for many years. Then the rules for admission to the Euro were bent, and the South showed up in basketcase mode. Everyone thought this could be solved by having the Germans and the North lend money and more money -- no nasty exchange rate drama after all -- and sooner or later all would be well. No one forced money on Greece. Except it has not turned out that way. It hasn't helped that the gnomes in Brussels care about one thing -- expanding the power of gnomes in Brussels. They will absolutely cut a deal with the Greeks and have the ECB attempt to sop up the mess.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:33 | 5742996 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

well said

The popular idea that the EU serves Germany's interest at the expense of the poorer nations is exactly back-asswards.

The EU is the economic counterpart to NATO: designed to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and Germany down.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 21:59 | 5741492 Gilnut
Gilnut's picture

Basic human fact.   Humans are self-centered and primarily concerned about the "self" when it comes to survival.  Any system that tries to supplant the "self" with the "other" is absolutely doomed to failure. Such as it was....such as it will always be.  Government and Religion are all about supplanting the "other" for the "self' which is exacly why they cause unmitigated chaos and death, they are unnatural.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:12 | 5741519 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Neither. The system throws in just enough capitalism so the socialist believe capitalism is at fault and just enough socialism so the capitalist believe socialism is at fault, what both sides of the economic spectrum fail to understand that it's a fucking fascist system we live in.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:24 | 5741594 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Good point here. Divide and conquer since they only want power, Status, Control, more money, bonus money like from Travel Per Diem Funding, more success, another career sometimes like Phil Gramm, etc.

Here is a news item:

http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-tablets-reveal-life-jews-nebuchadnezzars-b...

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A new exhibition of ancient clay tablets discovered in modern-day Iraq is shedding light for the first time on the daily life of Jews exiled to Babylon some 2,500 years ago.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:38 | 5743013 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

fascism = socialism

It is the same economic system: complete state control of the economy.

Free market capitalism means exactly the opposite: no state interference in the economy.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:10 | 5741526 TrustbutVerify
TrustbutVerify's picture

Socialism IS failure.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:12 | 5741530 jal
jal's picture

I'll say it again.

Capitalism is a failure.
It's a failure for 90+% of the world population.
Exploitation is the mean of operation.

Lets find a better system.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:14 | 5741544 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

There's a capitalist system somewhere?

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:23 | 5741586 Gilnut
Gilnut's picture

Communism, Socialism, and Fascism are a failure.

 

There.....fixed it for you.   There hasn't been a capitalist system in place since the early 1800's in the US, and that could even be debated.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:38 | 5741648 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

BULLSHIT! We had a system until progressives decided it wasn't fair enough and fixed it for us...and the fuckers are STILL calling it capitalism. The fuckers should be hung up by their testicles.

They are still claiming we have a capitalistic healthcare system too. Their shit simply don't stink. They just keep piling it on while declaring how sweet the smell is.

Its still shit.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:48 | 5741902 capital_anarchist
capital_anarchist's picture

Say it as many times as you like. Capitalism works very well. Unfortunately, it hasn't existed for quite some time here in the US.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:27 | 5742525 hot sauce technician
hot sauce technician's picture

If you really believe that then you should start becoming more cognizant of reality, and/or if you have intellectual capacity, reading. Henry Hazlitt's'Economics in One Lesson' is an excellent book to start with.

Capitalism in its purest form is allows for the greatest amount of benefit to the greatest amount of participants in a given market. Supply and demand is the only mechanism that allows for fair and accurate pricing of products and services. Government intervention disrupts market efficiency and only creates suffering for the majority of participants in a given market. You're problem is that you confuse capitalism with cronyism.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:18 | 5741563 Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

This article says the solution to socialism is ........ socialism?

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:42 | 5743031 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

Basic socialist logic comrade.

When is still some trace capitalism, problem is fault capitalism!

When is no more capitalism, when is socialism, is fault kulak!

...is never fault socialism.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 10:21 | 5747000 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

Exactly! Inasmuch as the solution to capitalism is capitalism.  

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:20 | 5741569 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

Socialism is a system.  It "cares" about nothing.  Its leaders care about enriching and empowering themselves, and care nothing for the people.  See, e.g., the USSR and Cuba.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:35 | 5741636 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

USA is a Socialist System, with Fixed Markets, a Military Republic type Government... in which the constitution is ignored, the Leaders propagandize about having a democracy & free Markets, but has a Central Bank that channels funds to TBTF Banks, the Politicians are all on the Take with the Richest Bribery System in history, and the country uses it's supper power status in military, economic, financial, and political power to hold up the world biggest Corporations who enjoy Oligarchic Control.

Whad I miss?

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:35 | 5741583 Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

"if they borrowed so much, why are they unemployed and miserable and without health care?"

I think the author just answered his own question.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:21 | 5741584 sudzee
sudzee's picture

Socialism includes the masses.

Capitalism excludes the masses.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:29 | 5741615 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Includes and excludes the masses from what? Prosperity?Murder? Poverty? Madness?

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:29 | 5741617 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The "masses" are not real. It's just you ignoring that they are individuals whom you wish to ignore their individual existence to support your own personal internal narrative to convince yourself that what you have been told is correct.

 

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:33 | 5741630 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Now that is STUPID.  Capitalism made the U.S. the most wealthy, powerful, nation in the world in record time.  Capitalism has made the "poor" in the U.S. wealthy compared to the poor in socialist countries.  Now that socialism is forcing its way into U.S. capitalism the system is starting to collapse. 

 

Socialism kills the masses.  Read up on your history.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:47 | 5741674 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

capitalism and socialism are  mutually dependent -

the creation of the middle class was a socialist invention which capitalim fed off of until  - "crony" capitalism - The natural evolution of capitalism - to - crony socialism for the rich -  killed the goose -the middle class -

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:20 | 5741786 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

You have a long view of History.

- US Civil War killed a lot of folks, 1861-65, 600,000 people (capitalism)

- Clayton Antitrust Act 1914
- Railway Labor Act 1926
- Social Security 1935
- Labor Management Relations Act of 1947
- Contract Work Hours Standards Act 1962
- Equal Pay Act of 1963
- Civil Rights Act of 1964
- Economic Opportunity Act of 1964
- Food Stamp Act of 1964
- Medicare passed 1965
- Medicaid passed 1965
- Voting Rights Act of 1965
- Higher Education Act of 1965
- Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965
- Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966
- Child Safety Act of 1966
- Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) of 1967
- Truth-in-Lending Act of 1968
- Land Sales Disclosure Act of 1968
- Bilingual Education Act of 1968
- Think Medicaid expanded in 1968?
- Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970
- Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act (MSPA), passed in 1983,
- FLSA amendment increased the minimum wage to $5.15 an hour 1996
- Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007

Government Kills, People Kill, Greed, Money & Power Kill.

Democide.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:02 | 5742712 Mike Honcho
Mike Honcho's picture

Why capitalism in ().  The civil war was caused by it or you are pointing out a complex situation that occurred in a capitalist country.  Weak as hell, the two are not interconnected and definitely not a causal relationship.

 

"

Government Kills, People Kill, Greed, Money & Power Kill." - yes, people not the system

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 14:40 | 5743816 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

You can't say Socialism, question if it is a failure, without examining what happened under the other -isms.

The British Empire, the French Empire, the Spanish, the Dutch, the Portuguese Empires... have all faded now, but were trading & capitalist empires.

They also did a lot of piracy, fighting, creating wars, subjugated peoples, and took cities, countries, regions... and often enslaved the people, gave them disease, and worked them to death.

Which US Wars do you believe in?

They used propaganda to get us into WWI & WWII. Why did we have to go to war in Korea? Vietnam was a false flag. Why did we kill crowds of people in Panama? Why did we kill convoys of retreating Iraqi Soldiers on that Highway in the Persian Gulf War?

Capitalism is pretty big on Democide old buddy.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 01:36 | 5742113 JoWazzoo
JoWazzoo's picture

Well said.  Government get the FSCK oiut of our lives.  Let us succeed you scum.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:50 | 5741590 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares,...

...about the state and its interests above all else. Although, when it's all about the state above all else it really doesn't matter what they call it so stop worrying about semantics.

 

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:28 | 5741609 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Freedom doesn't require an "ism" to work, even if it ain't pretty.

I fear, with good reason, any of the assholes trying to "fix" our economy, to make it fairer or kinder or just "better".

Honestly that is my biggest problem with the debates of climate change. Not with what will happen if we do nothing, but what will happen if we do anything. What irreparable damage will they do to the world with their "fixes".

Its like asking a twelve year old to work on your airplane engine.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:35 | 5741638 Gilnut
Gilnut's picture

"Freedom doesn't require an "ism" to work, even if it ain't pretty."

 

Amen.  Unfortunately people today do not want freedom, they want security.  

 

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:38 | 5741652 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Ultimately we are only secure in death.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 22:56 | 5741717 European American
European American's picture

"There are no free markets" 

Ahhh, but thank God for the Black Market...that's how I survive.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:06 | 5741748 ucde
ucde's picture

Most of the world's countries qualify as socialist in one way or another by the standards we have in this discourse (not the ideal one suggested by the article, perhaps). America is by its own standards heavily socialist. 

That includes Signapore:

http://rethinkecon.org/2012/07/25/is-singapore-a-capitalist-or-socialist...

So I would say that roughly 80% of the world = socialist. 

Having thought a bit more about this, I find the distinction between free markets and socialism gets really quite tenuous the more you go beneath the rhetoric and look at whats actually happening. For example, the law governing corporate entities is enforced by the state. As another example, Non-Disclosure Agreements. That's where somebody lets say in computer technology field, basically forces a consultant to agree not to create a competing product, that would utilize the same technologies developed while working on their product. Is that free market? Or is it using the power of the State's legal system to limit competition? What about patents? Some of these examples look like the free-market cannibalizing itself, literally limiting its own freedom. 

Many examples in the thought experiments I've run on this end up in one of the following two paradoxes: [i didnt just pull these out of a hat, I was thinking through known historical examples] 1) The free market entity using the power of the state to limit the power of other free market forces, or 2) The State being seen as necessary for enforcing an aspect of free market ideology. Example 1) is patent law: our idea space basically chewn up and legalized, the world of ideas surround by red tape and lawyer's fees. Example 2) Hayek's stated preference that governments be allowed to intervene during Union labor strikes, in order to 'protect the freedom of markets'. 

That's probably why we have so much trouble pointing to a period of history and calling it Free Market, because a strong free market force will always seek to legislate law in its favor, using the powers of the state. And free market ideology finds itself in a catch-22 with respect to pre-existing market interventions: does it intervene to stop the intervention, thus combating statism with statism, or does it be laissez-faire and allow the momentum of the prior intervention to continue?

I myself think Free Markets and "Socialism" both have their place. We would never have the computer, the internet or the Unix operating system without Bell Labs, MIT Research labs, DARPA and CERN (socialist programs, in essence, mountains of government money). That's because new technologies need to grow up in a nurturing environment, sheltered from market forces. But after these ideas have grown up, they need Free market forces to make them soar (think the Computer clubs of the early silicon valley nerds and their various 1980s Game companies, Altair, Apple, etc). We succeeded because we had the best of both worlds. If we had only had free markets, or only socialism, we never would have been as successful. 

I think the startup business model is an example of how crippling free market forces can be. An idea has to be able to run before its learned to walk, a product has to be ready in 6 months. Creators are incentivized to basically beg at the feat of angel investors for survival monies. The entire company culture can shift and change radically as sources of funding are acquired, and thus 'influence' is ceded to external groups. Oftentimes, the whole purpose of the enterprise is just to be cannibalized and eaten up into a larger company in a buy-out. Failures are 90%+ of the endeavor. I haven't even touched on the perverse disincentivizing of innovation that happens when every action has to lead to a 'market ready product' within 2 months. You can do R&D while you're building the prototype, son. :) Some would call it darwinian capitalism at its finest. I really disagree. Its short-term thinking and a dog-eat-dog competitive cultural model, and I don't see it producing much outside of 'DoggyPhotoSharer 2.0'. Pardon the cynicism, there are probably lots of great startups out there. The point is, if we were strictly free market, we wouldn't even have computers at this point, in all likelihood, as every 6 months a pointy-haired boss would have come into [insert bearded computer genius's name here]'s lab and said: "You've had six weeks for R&D, I'm going to need you to generate an income stream soon." And bang, future vision project shelved for DoggiePhotoSharer. 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:59 | 5742565 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

UCDE
There is a lot of good observation here.  You're thinking hard.  I also think one of the main problems is that the reality of a "free market" is an illusion.  However, it's a bit weird to say taht 80% of the world is socialist.  I tend to think that your use of the term is of the American variety you often see on ZH.  People think socialism is anything but total laissez faire government.  I also think people here (Americans mainly) are on the wrong track with their definition of socialism because there is a lot of historical baggage attached to the term in 20th century US history - mainly anti-red sentiments from WWII up until Reagan.  Setting aside years of liberal bullshit nonsense from so-called "communist" academics - we all know it's a joke to claim the US is anti-socialist, when corporate welfare in the US is so massive.  In that way, I suppose many nations are socialist if they participate in corporate welfare, for example.

However, Marxist theory has a lot to say about finance capitalism - but I suspect many here don't delve into this area (most likely because of the proximity to the aforementioned liberal-bullshit-nonsense academics).  However, consider this - inefficient capital investment, declining rates of profit, and the formation of oligopolies are all features of end-state capitalism in Marxist theory.  These result in wide wealth disparities and social unrest, which characterize the global North in the early 1900s.  Regardless of your feeling about whether banks sponsored the bolsheviks - it's clear that a portion of the Global North went toward so-called "socialism" or "communism", whereas another portion went toward "welfare state capitalism".  Welfare state capitalism employs social welfare to counterbalance civil unrest that responds to wealth disparity - i.e. the US halted revolution internally by spinning narratives about and selling various concessions.  Many people forget about this when they want to yank social support away - this was the result of a deal cut when the population started to rise up in the 20s/30s.  

However, that story is pretty straightforward and at least understandable as a subtext by most who are reflecting on history.  The real important analysis is of finance capitalism, which typifies late 20th century capitalism.   An example of this is your statement:

"We would never have the computer, the internet or the Unix operating system without Bell Labs, MIT Research labs, DARPA and CERN (socialist programs, in essence, mountains of government money)." 

These large state investments are not strictly speaking socialism.  They're essentially capitalist measures intended to off-set (or delay) the negative effects of advancing capitalism.  That is, the state sinks huge sums into these projects, which creates employment - this is a buffer against the unemployment caused by the rapidly declining rate of profit in late capitalism.  Some might argue that they represent the equivalent of public utilities in which massive capital expenditures require state intervention because the risks prohibit private investment - but in reality, it's state intervention in the market because of the growing inefficiencies of the market.  These are again, a form of concession in the underlying class struggle taking place.  

This is obviously very simplified and there is a whole feedback cycle regarding "legitimacy" in this analysis that brings in the role of the legislative (so-called democratic) process, but my point is that what you describe as socialism isn't really socialism - i.e. it's not done because the rulers "care".  It's done to stave off revolution my friend.  

This also is a good entry point to discuss actual finance capitalism - the proliferation of derivatives for example.  Which serve as another crutch to spin off and produce a buffer and counterbalance to the inevitable failure of capitalism described by Marxist theorists.  However, this is a much longer discussion and there is no room here.  

Also - you're mistaken on the startup VC funding model.  These are greenhouses for CIA/NSA/DOD/ETC. matrix control projects.  There is real incentivization going on there - it's to incentivize people to develop tools to enslave themselves and their fellow humans by the global elite.  This is just another approach by our controllers - instead of implementing stop gaps (even complex financial instrument stop gaps) to stave off social revolt, they are moving in the direction of control by force.  This is a concept that was once discussed by a smart German who referred to it as the "colonization of the lifeworld".  Freedom becomes circumscribed and thus the option or expectation which motivates the underlying social stuggle against our rulers becomes foreclosed in advance.   

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:12 | 5741769 scatha
scatha's picture

This whole thing is twisted. History in one pill. Greek government was neutral to Nazi Germany until early 1941 then after Italian aggression reversed so Italians, Bulgarians and Germans started killing Greeks, not only fascists but mostly communists, the only force really opposing Hitler's world order. When Red Army came close, Greek fascist  renewed friendship with British who supported them and invaded Greece to stop communists revolt against fascists collaborators that lead to civil war 1946.

Unfortunately If those SYRIZA guys are for real it means civil war in Greece again.Greece is divided, interests of EU and Greek oligarchs and Church are threatened,  military coupe d' etat will happened like in 1967.

If you sick and tired of labels, socialism, capitalism read this;

http://contrarianopinion.blogspot.com/2015/01/polls-and-propaganda-curio...

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:30 | 5741816 brown_hornet
brown_hornet's picture

Oldwood-You are on fire tonight.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:32 | 5741822 brown_hornet
brown_hornet's picture

Oldwood-You are on fire tonight.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:56 | 5741927 gwar5
gwar5's picture

We live in a parasitic socialist company town. We get enough rationed out to stay alive but the company store gets all the benefits of our captured existence.

 

"I bid you welcome." -- Dracula


Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:56 | 5741932 rejected
rejected's picture

"The US, like western Europe, is in the midst of a massive failure of its brand of capitalism."

Capitalism :an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

The u.s trade and industry are controlled by government. Taxes and Regulations for the most part. So that eliminates Capitalism.

Capital: is a type of good that can be consumed now, but if consumption is deferred an increased supply of consumable goods will be available later.

In other words Savers. Since the Central Bank has squashed savers there is very little real capital. The Central Bank prints up false capital which is what leads to Mal investments and huge debts that can never be paid.

Fascism: From the inventor of the word Benito Mussolini.1: Everything in the State. 2: Nothing outside the State. 3: Nothing against the State.

I pick Fascism and light Nazism as the system we now enjoy. Corporate bankers rule the government,,, fascism and a very large national police [DHS]  and associated security agencies makeup the Nazi part.

IMHO it is not a failure. It is a well planned take over. Granted there are some bumps here and there but like a sailboat they are zig zaging but still on their course to our complete defeat. This is a war that has been ongoing for centuries.

At this time evil seems to have the upper hand. Big Time!

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 00:16 | 5741975 Yao
Yao's picture

[T]hat's not what those US government handouts are about.  They're about keeping people quiet in a failed system.

It isn't the system that has failed the people, it's the people that have failed the system.  Capitalism requires a population that is willing to work and our post New Deal American socialism has simply removed all the willingness to work from most Americans.   

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 00:52 | 5742010 honestann
honestann's picture

How to reply to an article so misguided?

-----

First, you have ZERO hope if you adopt ANY grand scheme that will apply to everyone.

If you propose ANY grand scheme that will apply to everyone...

???  WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE  ???

-----

If you care about human beings, NO approach that applies FORCE to some (much less all) can possibly be charactertized as "pro human", or "pro civilization", or benevolent.

-----

Do you care about human beings?  Then prove it.  Advocate this:

ELIMINATE ALL FICTITIOUS ENTITIES (government, corporation, etc).

ELIMINATE ALL AUTHORITY (in every way, shape and form).

ELIMINATE ALL SUPPORT FOR FORCE AGAINST HUMANS.

PROMOTE VIGOROUS SELF-DEFENSE... so predators do not win.

-----

Humans are like a cage full of clueless animals being jerked around by diabolical behaviorist scientists (Pavlov and more vicious modern mutations), utterly unaware that all the stimuli provided are invented by diabolical cretins who watch and laugh at the stupidity of their captured prey.

One of the main ways people act so clueless is... what?  Is to adopt one of the already existing paradigms provided for them, rather than observe the world with their own eyes, recognize the patterns with their own brain, make their own identifications and provisional inferences, and purposely strive to comprehend as much of reality as they can find.  Which could be and should be the entire universe for beings at and beyond the capacity of human beings.

With such a perspective, all variations and mutations of every "scheme" like "socialism" and "capitalism" and endless others share the same fundamental defects.  And as long as those defects exist, humans will suffer, humans will be abused, humans will be cheated and defrauded and taken gross advantage of by human predators of all types.

What defects?

That "government" or "corporation" is real, or could possibly have any basis whatsoever.  This is easily proven to be UTTERLY FALSE.  And yet, what do hundreds of EXTREMELY smart people do every day?  They grapple with endless nonsense in various misguided attempts to find a way to make impossible fiction... real.  And workable.  When only the most cursory glance immediately reveals the inherent and irreparable flaws in these carefully manufactured and crafted fictional SCAMS (often called "systems" and "paradigms").

-----

Do you want humans to act in benevolent ways towards each other?

I CERTAINLY DO.

Well, the MOMENT you even mention the idea they must be FORCED to help other humans, and others will decide which other humans will be helped (clueless voters for whoever promises votes in exchange for goodies), and how they will be helped (brainwashing AKA school and various crumbs), and others will decide how much you must contribute every day, and how you must live every day, and what you must do every day, and what you must not do every day...

... WELL ...

YOU LOST THEM.

By proposing everyone must become YOUR slave in order to "help people", you have in fact made certain that:

A:  almost nobody will want to help.
B:  a great many will line up for help.
C:  almost nobody even remembers what benevolence feels like.

... and more.  But that's enough.

-----

This article is chock full of "grains of truth".  But also chock full in approximately equal measure with "gross assumptions", many of which are worse than the diseases it laments.  All wrapped in protests of "good intentions".  As always.

-----

If you want a benevolent world where virtually everyone would live at least a minimally comfortable life, then lobby for the rest of your life to ABOLISH ALL SYSTEMS.

If you want to characterize voluntary interaction as "a system", then go ahead and promote that.  But if you take even a few seconds to examine the nature of such a "system", you will find out this is precisely the only one that is NOT A SYSTEM. (though some might make the case this is a "eternally self-organizing dynamic system", which isn't quite a contradiction, but... at least a terminology stretch).

This is, in fact, the antithesis of a system.  Why?  Because everyone chooses their own way to live their lives (not one system, but endless ever-changing approaches), and everyone suffers the consequences of their choices.  Which is why they keep fiddling their own personal approaches, to attempt to get better results.  And oh, by the way, people will naturally look at approaches other people attempt, and what kind of consequences those approaches lead to, and on that basis modify their approaches to get the consequences they value and enjoy and prefer.

-----

Humans are such a sad joke.  From above, their plight is as stupid and unnecessary as the plight of a bunch of clueless rats who just can't see the way to paradise that lies right in front of their faces.  And the human predators (oligarchs, politicians and assorted other "authorities") laugh their asses off at human beings, just as the diabolical behaviorist scientists laugh their asses off at the stupid rats flailing around helplessly in the contrivance they created for their self-amusement and experimentation.  How dumb can rats be, they laugh.  Indeed.  And who are the rats in this situation?

-----

The solution?  Does it matter?  Because it won't happen.  Humans are too thoroughly clueless, like the rats in the contraption designed to torture and humiliate them.  While a few humans "get it" in varying degrees (some of whom seem to gravitate to ZH somehow), the vast majority are clueless.  And the vast majority of even the smartest human beings are clueless.  The author of this article is obviously a very intelligent human being, yet just as utterly and thoroughly trapped by the UTTERLY fictional devices established to fool him.

-----

While I am a scientist, I am not one of those diabolical swine who laugh at the torture of animals.  Just the opposite, in fact.  I find it all revolting in the extreme.  I and some small number of other lucky souls managed to escape the contraption designed to enslave and torture me, crawl up on top of a shelf above the contraption AND the behaviorists, and watch the whole show from an even wider perspective.

And yet, we can find no way to wake up the clueless rats in the contraption!  Many times late at night when the torturers are asleep we visited the contraption and explained the nature of the scam to the clueless prey.  Their response?  They think WE are insane.  If they could, they'd capture us and force us into the torture trap that torments them every day.  Because they believe...

... THEIR PITIFUL CAGE IS ALL THERE IS.  PERIOD.

-----

They have no idea how wrong they are about that!

Sadly, they are as hopeless as they are clueless, both of which may help to explain the other. 

Oh, the solution?  Probably the simplest one of all is... simply to learn to recognize the difference between nothing and something, which is to say, the difference between fiction and reality.

To recognize the following are all 100% fiction.  They flat-out don't exist.

LAW
NATION
OFFICIAL
AUTHORITY
GOVERNMENT
CORPORATION

Even that few is a good start.  The thousands of others should fall once a mind fully comprehends how ZERO the above are... how utterly non-existent.

But make no mistake the mental-unit that refers-to a fiction is just as real, and can be just as motivating as a mental-unit that refers-to things utterly real.  A kid who BELIEVES his SantaClaus mental-unit refers-to something real WILL ACT AS IF that non-existent entity exists.

And therein lies the key that the top-level human predators clearly understand, but their prey do not.  That if you can jam a bogus mental-unit into a human brain, a great many of them, if not most of them, if not almost all of them will ACT AS IF the blatant fiction were real.  The reality of the referent doesn't matter to the question of whether and how humans act.  And so, they craft endless utterly bogus, but even more utterly diabolical (and insane) fictional mental-units to pollute the minds of humans.  And they spred them, and repeat them endlessly, because they also understand the power and motivational efficacy of habituation.  Nag, nag, nag, repeat, repeat, repeat.

-----

Humans are finished, because they're as clueless as those tortured lab rats.  But somehow it is especially irritating to encounter tortured victims who diligently want to discover the nature of the "problem" and "fix it"... not even knowing the "problem" is actually just a scam, and escape is relatively easy --- just don't believe in fairy tale fictions, and DO NOT OBEY, DO NOT FUND, DO NOT SANCTION, and when possible, sink your rabid bite into any behaviorist you can.  Then run!  And hide.  And prepare.  And become an expert at recognizing fictions.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 00:59 | 5742049 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Every living creature has within it its nature, its evolved existence and as such can be studied and ultimately can be turned back against itself by more intelligent creatures. Our struggle is to know ones self, our strengths but especially our weaknesses. If not we will be enslaved by them. And many of us have been. This is the nature of our freedom. Learn, act or be a slave to the invisible hand of our own weaknesses. Everything of which we complain is the result of our pursuit of our most immediate desires, our need to believe rather our need to understand. Say no to something for nothing and things will start improving immediately. The people who  have power over us only do so because we give it to them.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 07:13 | 5746363 honestann
honestann's picture

Indeed, and excellent post.  But humans are capable of altering their perspective.  They just choose not to, for very lame reasons.  Which is why a rational analysis at this point in history must conclude they are a failed species.  The only "out" is... they are still capable.  The proof being, that a few have.  Way too few.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 01:32 | 5742101 JoWazzoo
JoWazzoo's picture

Nyce RANT!  Really

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:32 | 5742531 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

Ann

I don't think the article is misguided, it just comes from a different place than you.  It's obvious that in the theoretical and abstract realm, a principled rejection of these concatenations of authority and rules (paradigms) represent the only "true" and "complete" destruction of the system.  However, as total as this critique is - it's TOTALLY abstract.  This is one area where libertarians make themselves appear to be the hi-fallutin out of touch academic types they desperately don't want to be like.  That is, your individual committment to rejecting these systems is clearly what you need to do to increase spaces of liberty.  Indeed, if everyone did it, there would be a wholesale shift in society and proliferation of liberty.  However, there is almost ZERO material, historical precedent, or theory that provides a path for this non-obeyance, non-funding, non-sanctioning - rejection - that you ask for.  What does that mean?  It means that society's don't change by people en masse deciding to believe something different - due to some principle or theory.  Sure, there are some of us here who practice this personally.  However, to talk about the end state (the utopia that liberals often attack commies for, btw) without talking about the middle and end-game should be considered offensive.  

No one can discount that your abstract position is correct - it is entirely needed that people make these categorical rejections.  If everyone did it, society would be radically changed for the better.  However, this is like an army general preparing his soldiers for their victory without any actual battle plans other than "be the victors".  How do we get from current consciousness, which is totally integrated with material reality, death controls (shout out to RM), and all of the machinations of belief and self-interest, to one where enough people achieve Ann-Christ-consciousness?  

There simply is no answer, but those who share your position tend to get angry and upset that everyone isn't uniformly adopting your panacea - largely blaming individuals for not leveraging a strong enough will to achieve liberation...and thus we're resigned to simply perusing ZH and complaining about the world.  

The truth is that there MUST be a material analysis of social movements and organization in any "plan" to confront the elite.  Most people don't know much about Upgrayedd, but he has faced gunfire at barricades with people fighting for their liberty - been beaten and dragged off by the army.  This practical experience confirmed in me that the changes in people's minds about their system (what a Marxist would call becoming "conscious") tend to occur when people take shared risks over these ideas with others.  That means more than just rejecting their habituation to power, it means forming groups, setting goals, taking material risks together - out of that experience comes a sense of achievement, for sure - which motivates the human self-interest.  This is what is meant by the term "animating struggle for liberty" - it gives form and purpose to a life worth living.  The shared risks also help form the broader sense of "self-interest" which I was discussing above.  

Thus the road to liberation is found neither in an imposed collectivization of self-interest nor in an abstract rejection of the fictions that situation the elite's control vectors.  It's important that you're aware that I do not reject your analytic worldview.  I'm not suggesting we continue to feed the fictions.  My point is that we don't truly disrupt these fictions unless we band together inside of them to fight them face-to-face.  To keep imploring people to reject them without material organization simply ensures that when they are pressed or pinched by those systems - when it's 1 vs. the world - they will revert to being a disempowered individual, rather than a potent collective.   

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 03:18 | 5746229 honestann
honestann's picture

You are totally wrong in just about everything you said, though like the article I responded to, and most every story that "sounds good", it contains grains of truth to make you accept what you want to believe.

I'll try to address some of your mistakes in a very concrete, very non-abstract way.  BTW, I know my rants can sound harsh when read.  That's not where they're coming from, however.  The problem is in the world of today, REALITY SOUNDS HARSH to people, and as a consequence, my rants sound harsh.  I'm just being clear and direct, explaining what is real as best I can in a completely unprepared, unedited, stream-of-consciousness form.

-----

However, as total as this critique is - it's TOTALLY abstract.

Exactly BACKWARDS.  Read what I wrote.  Think a bit.  An important part of what my message DOES is to expose the FRAUDULENT FICTIONAL ABSTRACTIONS that confuse humans and point out WHAT IS REAL and WHAT IS NOT.  As such, the entire trust of my comments was to WARN ABOUT ABSTRACTIONS, and pay attention to WHAT IS REAL.

Your response is typical of what happens in a mind that is so habituated to worrying about endless abstractions that... it cannot cope with clear, direct, precise discussions of what is real, and what is not.  This is a natural reaction for modern brains, and probably for brains of any era.  It is a bit like a sci-fi episode, in which some caveman or bronze-age being accidentally discovers and enters a futuristic starship... the environment is so alien their brain simply can't cope!  In fact, there is an old StarTrek Next Generation episode like this, where they encounter a proto-vulcan society who learns of enterprise and Picard... and makes Picard a god.  Why?  Because they just aren't used to thinking in terms of the environment they experience.

Well, today most humans are so utterly immersed in the propaganda of "state" that they imagine that is more real than... well... REALITY.  This is not surprising.  This TOTAL FICTION has taken over most of their thinking process, as well as most of their wealth.  Think about what I just pointed out, go back and read my post, and think again about what is abstract (and fictional), and what is concrete (and real).

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For me, these topics have been THE OPPOSITE OF ABSTRACT since I was 4 years old.  Many times I've described real events of my life since 4 years old in ZH messages, and likely you've read some of them over the past 5+ years.

When I say "opposite of abstract", I mean I looked at utterly real people I encounter, and the utterly real mental-units they manipulate in their brains, and the utterly real choices and actions those manipulations lead them to make and take.

And I have observed very carefully, and for decades now, what happens when humans do not pay very careful attention to the "reality-status" of each of the mental-units they manipulate.  I described this briefly in my message.

And this understanding I had of how real mental-units in real sentient beings causes real choices and real actions led me to pay very close attention to the nature and status of my own mental-units.  I refused to just absorb whatever pile of language came to my attention, and accept all the "formulated concepts" as accepted mental-units in my brain... not without taking time to inspect them, consider them, and identify their relationship with reality and nonsense (AKA abstract fiction).

Since I am real, and the process I went through was real, and the difference in my choices compared to "normal folks" have been more than DRASTIC, I'm still trying to find out how any of that is ABSTRACT.  To be sure, I must make very clear, I have manipulated endless abstract mental-units since I was 4 years old in this entire very real process that I just described.  And every day I mentally manipulate abstract mental-units to choose the very concrete actions I take.

So for me, or anyone who OWNS and understands their mental-units, both concrete and abstract, no dichotomy exists.  Why?  Because we are self-aware what is abstract and what is concrete and what is real.

And most important of all... what is FICTION.

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This is one area where libertarians make themselves appear to be the hi-fallutin out of touch academic types they desperately don't want to be like.

Where do you get the idea I am libertarian?  Aren't they for "small government"?  Can you not see that I am more anarchist than any anarchist?  As I understand the conventional meanings of the term anarchist, an anarchist is one who "prefers no government".

I'm far beyond that.  I say:

 - government is inherent fiction
 - government has never existed
 - government does not exist today

 - government will never exist in the future
 - government inherently cannot exist or be real

I also say in various places that "human predators pretend to be government".

Now, read all I just wrote.  Is that an instance of "being abstract and hi-falutin"?  Or is that a direct, explicit statement that "government is an abstract fiction", but the predators who pretend to be government are real, as are their weapons, as are their actions?

Who, exactly, is being abstract here?  Me?

Seriously?

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I have to give you credit though, because you follow-up with a direct and explicit refutation of precisely what YOU stated, which I copy below:

your individual commitment to rejecting these systems is clearly what you need to do to increase spaces of liberty.  Indeed, if everyone did it, there would be a wholesale shift in society and proliferation of liberty.

Seems you do think rejecting these abstract fictions can lead me to enjoy more individual freedom (which it most certainly has).  But more, you also seem to think that if other real, physical human beings held these same thoughts, and took consistent (but personalized) actions... that "there would be a wholesale shift in society and a proliferation of liberty".

I can't disagree with that.

I also can't find where my thoughts and my actions leading me to live a life with vastly more liberty than others is ABSTRACT.  Seems mighty real to me out here in the extreme boonies, 125km from the nearest human being.

I also can't understand how all these other folks who enjoy "a wholesale shift towards a life of liberty" would be very abstract either.

In fact, seems to me, that what is STOPPING humans from this "wholesale shift towards liberty" is... what?

ABSTRACTIONS, and especially FICTIONAL ABSTRACTIONS.

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I mean, I do have to agree in one sense.  I don't know how to write any sort of message here in this forum without including any abstractions.  What would such a message look like?

Maui.  Jupiter.  Eiffel Tower.  Crater Lake.  Moon.  Water.

Woops, I screwed up.  Water is an abstraction.  But I could say "Pacific Ocean".

So, let me ask.  Can I express very concrete ideas and very concrete actions in language without abstractions?  I don't think I can, certainly not without taking a long, long, long time to attempt to concoct some strange new form of communication that might allow me to do such a thing.

Which... very funny actually... makes me remember another episode of Star Trek Next Generation in which the whole plot revolved around a similar problem (assuming I recall correctly).  I think Picard was trapped on a planet and the alien could ONLY communicate with concretes (like I was above by way of absurd example).  But Picard communicates mostly with abstractions and a scattering of concretes.  And they just can't comprehend each other, because their forms of expression are so alien to what they are used to.  Anyway, maybe you saw that... the phrase Darmok comes to mind, but that's all I remember now.

-----

However, there is almost ZERO material, historical precedent, or theory that provides a path for this non-obeyance, non-funding, non-sanctioning - rejection - that you ask for.

That is a VERY important fact you point out.

Do you think that perhaps the reason mankind has never escaped this complete absurdity of "enslavement by fiction" might just be...

EXACTLY WHAT I JUST REVEALED ???

I am, in fact, stating THE SOLUTION.

To be more blunt, and risk sounding harsh and pissing you off unintentionally...

The reason ages of mankind have remained enslaved by fictions is... precisely because they have been trapped by these bogus fictions.

... AND ...

I just told them how this scam works

... AND ...

HOW TO END IT.

I know.  That has to sound arrogant.  Sorry.  Somebody had to figure this out eventually!  And from what I can tell, a great many people have figured this out over the millennia.  However, they were not experts in the nature of consciousness like I am (and more so my mentor who still manages to make me look lame sometimes).

What should we do?  Shut the frack up?

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The point here is this.  NO OTHER WAY WILL WORK.

The ONLY way to unseat human predators who enslave you and almost all of mankind today is... what?  Is... to recognize THEY ARE NOT ABSTRACT.  To recognize THEY ARE CONCRETE... and can be killed.  And certainly do not need to be fed, and obeyed, and enriched, and pampered, and glorified beyond belief, and... made the center of thought for an entire planet full of brainwashed chimps.

-----

It means that society's don't change by people en masse deciding to believe something different - due to some principle or theory.

While I believe it could happen... certainly nothing makes it impossible... I have to agree with this part.

HOWEVER...

Did it ever occur to you that maybe I am not making the same mistake that everyone else is making?  I mean, speaking of abstractions!  Wow!  Did it ever occur to you that maybe I provide this information for... the 0.01% of readers who are already at the point where all they need is a BIT more understanding of the hoax, so they can make more effective plans sooner rather than later?

In other words, can you imagine a NON-ABSTRACT MOTIVE ???

Can you imagine that I would be thrilled to learn that 3 real, physical concrete people took what I write (or the sum of the hundreds of my messages they may have read), and thereby figured out how to achieve a superior life?

Think about that for a minute!

Is there any evidence for this?

If you read my messages, you'll know I've written "humans are finished" about a thousand times in these ZH messages.  Many of those times I have added that "maybe a few will be able to evade, escape, and achieve liberty and a better life... and eventually get the hell off this planet of predator apes".

So actually, I've said it many times.  Just to remind you if you've read me before.  And if this is the first message of mine you've read, you need no forgiveness for not knowing I have already written off the human race.

Which means, NONE of my agendas or motives or goals or are abstract.  They are utterly concrete.  They are only meant to have impact on... well... hopefully more than ZERO humans.  If one good human takes what I write and escapes the intellectual as well as physical hell-hole being constructed, then I achieve my very concrete goal.

To hell with the abstract notion of "savings mankind" or any such goal.  What you may not have read, but I have expressed many times here in ZH, is that I have no freaking idea how to defeat the techniques applied by the predators-that-be.  Well, actually that's not true, but no idea that I or we would be willing to consider.

Which means, we are individuals, we are individualists, and we have no abstract solutions to sell.  In fact, we have nothing to sell.

-----

Sure, there are some of us here who practice this personally.  However, to talk about the end state (the utopia that liberals often attack commies for, btw) without talking about the middle and end-game should be considered offensive.

See, maybe you get it after all.  Maybe you just don't get that you are implicitly contradicting yourself.  Do you see?

For practical purposes... to the extent it is possible on planet earth today... I do live in utopia.  I explored the planet for over 5 years, then chose the most attractive place (all things considered) based upon my likes and dislikes, spent 90% of my life savings to move into the extreme boonies 125km from the nearest human being, and build out my modest but very comfortable self-sufficient place to live.  I grow and raise almost all my own food, don't have or need a car since my place cannot be reached by land vehicle, but do enjoy the new 2-seat high-tech carbon-fiber airplane that gets me wherever I want to go... including all the way across the entire south-pacific a few times.

But... I am completely aware that most people didn't have $350K saved up, which I did, and needed to establish my modest but wonderful utopian paradise.  And I am completely aware that very few people on this planet have the sense of confidence and competence to attempt something like I did.  Sadly, my attempts to help tiny groups of 2 to 5 people collaborate (which would greatly reduce individual costs and risks) have not succeeded (seems they just can't get themselves to act as unconventionally as they think).

My point is this.  You say "some of this practice this personally".

Isn't that the point?

Aren't you glad you do?

If so, isn't that the point?  Isn't that a worthwhile goal?

And if that IS a worthwhile goal for you, or me, or a few others... then...

Maybe if we help others [on the verge] understand what they need to understand (rather than just feel) that making that choice to do something, get the hell outta dodge, make a good life for themselves, and avoid the human predators who pretend to be those abstract fictions... well... maybe a few will.

So why don't we?

What I think is UTOPIAN is... to wait until we can convince enough people to not accept the abstract fictions or the abuse.  Because THAT DAY WILL NEVER COME.

And to wait for that day is... what?  Thinking ABSTRACT rather than CONCRETE.

So while thinking correctly with those abstractions CAN help us understand the nature of the universe, the world, mankind and the predators-that-be... the POINT is to take individual concrete action to make our lives better.

Because, again, mankind is finished.

-----

No one can discount that your abstract position is correct - it is entirely needed that people make these categorical rejections.  If everyone did it, society would be radically changed for the better.  However, this is like an army general preparing his soldiers for their victory without any actual battle plans other than "be the victors".  How do we get from current consciousness, which is totally integrated with material reality, death controls (shout out to RM), and all of the machinations of belief and self-interest, to one where enough people achieve Ann-Christ-consciousness?

WE DON'T.

Let me ask the question this way.  If you are on the Titanic, and you realize "this sucker is going down", would you in a million years adopt the following attitude?

Hmmm... not enough life rafts for everyone.

So... we might as well all die.

I can see from what you write elsewhere that the answer is no.  You'd save as many as possible.  I'm not even trying to go that far.  To hell with mankind!!!  While I don't take the next step (like many others do) and say "they deserve what they get" (because they don't)... they certainly do bear some responsibility.

I would like to believe that what you would do on that sinking ship is to find the people with the most realistic wits about them, and put THEM into the life boats that do exist.  Why not save the best of them?  Why not save those who are realistic and reality-oriented enough to perhaps survive whatever are the next dangers they face?  Maybe no rescue ship will come for many hours... many days... and maybe some will eventually wash up on islands, and have to figure out how to survive there, and invent ways to signal airplanes or passing ships.

Do you want to save the morons who are always the ones most responsible for keeping the predators in power (and making life suck)?  Or save the few that might move forward.  I think you'd chose the last.

And that's all I'm doing.  Hopefully a few.

However, just for laughs, let's say that you and I are wrong, and these more optimistic folks who claim "we will overthrow them" are correct.  I don't believe that, and I stopped spending any time worrying about that scenario years ago (people are just too stupid and too averse to change to hope for widespread success).

But let's just say we're wrong, and they're right.  After all, I'm very confident in my mental abilities and insights, but I'm not omniscient and so there may be some super hail-mary long-shot chance they might be right.

What should we do?

My answer:  same thing.  Explain the situation.  Make sure SOMEBODY really understands what the hell has been going down for the past few millennia, so hopefully that someone is around if this magical day comes when the human predators have been destroyed and hung from the lampposts.

What then?

Well, hopefully this SOMEONE can stand up and explain what has been going on.  Because I can assure you, if we are wrong, and this day does come, it will NOT come because large number of people understand what I'm explaining.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

However, SOMEONE needs to explain.  Otherwise they'll just set up another version of the only thing they know!  THOSE BOGUS ABSTRACT FICTIONS.  They will leave them ALL in place.  And maybe they'll even add a few good short-term ideas to make the next rise-of-the-predators a bit more difficult.

But you and I know... IT WON'T WORK.  Furthermore IT WON'T LAST LONG.

And the reason for that is... because the human predators that I'm talking about already understand what I've been saying, and they've understood for millennia!  Maybe not in such detail as we do, but they DO understand, and they HAVE.

And furthermore, they spend their entire lives honing and tweaking and learning how to lie, cheat, steal, defraud, confuse, program and otherwise manipulate people to return themselves to power... AND KEEP IT.

While good, honest, ethical, productive, benevolent folks... well... THEY ARE TOO BUSY creating the goods and goodies they (but mostly the predators) get to enjoy.  They do have vastly less time to devise protections from predators than predators have to erect them.

Plus, the predators have the ultimate weapon.  No, not nuclear weapons.  Not biological weapons.  Something much simpler.

Predators know the core fact that gives them an inherent advantage.  And that fact is what?

That destruction is vastly more potent than production.

It takes a lot of time, effort, money, expertise and resources to build a nice comfortable home.

It takes a few minutes, almost zero effort, no money (free matches will do, though a couple bucks worth of gasoline will help too), no expertise and no other resources to burn that sucker to the ground... to totally destroy that house.

This is a universal metaphysical fact of reality.

DESTRUCTION IS MORE POTENT THAN PRODUCTION.

And everyone understands this clearly, even if only implicitly sometimes.  Which is why 99.99999% of the time, the predators only need to THREATEN you.  Hell, today they don't even need to threaten you.  You just ASSUME they will threaten you.  How many times has any human predator come to you and issued a actual threat if you don't pay your taxes, or obey speed limits, or anything else... that they will harm you?

Do you see the power of their weapon?

They know this clearly.  Oh boy do they know.

Which is why they always win, and ALWAYS WILL WIN, unless (guessing) at least 2% or 3% of the population understand the fundamental nature of the game that keeps the vast majority of human beings utterly enslaved.

So, to conclude this issue, I think we agree.  Humans are finished.  But just in case we're wrong, why not leave these ideas around for someone to pick up at the exact moment in history when these ideas are the ONLY thing that can stop this endless cycle of human stupidity and misery?

After all, we don't have to do anything beyond what we're doing in our rather lame attempt to help "just a few good people".

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There simply is no answer, but those who share your position tend to get angry and upset that everyone isn't uniformly adopting your panacea - largely blaming individuals for not leveraging a strong enough will to achieve liberation...and thus we're resigned to simply perusing ZH and complaining about the world.

I try to avoid blaming victims.  To be sure, humans should never allow themselves to ignore the endless evidence in front of their faces that they're being scammed.  But... I blame the human predators.

Besides, I'm only concerned with myself.  And my messages are just little crumbs of good will for anyone already wise enough to consider them nourishment.

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The truth is that there MUST be a material analysis of social movements and organization in any "plan" to confront the elite.

THAT is too abstract... and misguided.  You will only end up supporting yet another scheme (or one of the already existing schemes), that end up where we are now.

ONLY if somehow (not gonna happen) everyone from every perspective decided to work together to throw off their common enemy would humans have a chance.

The only organization that is necessary, or that will work, is the KILL the predators.  They will NEVER, EVER back down.  They WILL pretend anything to get what they want, but they will NEVER, EVER give in.  They will NEVER do so.  And so, the only possible solution is to exterminate them.  And in the process, show the next generation of humans who consider the predator life what may and should happen to them.

If they want to move into the deep jungle and live as predators there... let them.  Otherwise, KILL THEM.  PERIOD.

Man, this issue really is simple.

PREDATORS versus PRODUCERS.

And the only solution is... exterminate the predators.

No other approach has ANY chance whatsoever.  PERIOD.

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The only way to disrupt the fictions is to expose them, refuse them, avoid them... and kill those who attempt to enslave you.

Hopefully you realize now that I am anything but abstract in my intentions, though of course I do need to manipulate abstractions and communicate with them to convey concrete facts, relationships and action.

At the end, it seems to be YOU who are captured by the abstract!  I made very concrete decisions, took very concrete actions, and now live a very comfortable concrete life in my own little paradise utopia.  And my goal is only to MAYBE help one, two, five, or perhaps 25 others move forward far enough to achieve a reasonable degree of liberty and the good life.  While you are still talking about this abstract notion of "society".  I want no part of "society" and never have.  To HELL with all such notions.

One of my early thoughts from early years (perhaps 8 or 10 years old), was to conclude that the abstraction you and others call "society" or "culture" is quite appropriate to associate with the "culture" in a petri dish.  My personal decision was, "I want nothing to do with culture".  And so it remains today.  I guess I never was suited to become a biologist, eh?  :-)

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 10:15 | 5746900 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

Fly me to your redoubt Ann!  Whether we agree or not, I want more.  

Look - I believe that arguments aren't a win/lose game.  That is, the advancement of consciousness does not proceed along a system of won or lost points.  One theorist referred to this, usefully I believe, as the difference between arguments oriented toward mutual understanding and goal-oriented arguments.  The former are the basis of real community and social discourse - the latter are the realm of politics (i.e. manipulation, deceit, and market-oriented [goal oriented] actions).  Thus, I'm more interested in finding what we agree on than discounting your position.  I'm not here to move people away from your position, exactly.  I only want people to see it for its limitations.  I will call you offensive and selfish sometimes too, but I'm sure you can handle that.  

However, the one thing I dislike about your response is your misinterpretation and repeated application of the ersatz concept you took for the word "abstract".  I simply mean concrete, physical, social and historically seated dynamics.  Discussing the control systems in place in our world from the perspective of one who has (and serious kudos and envy from me for this) literally abs-tracted (dragged out) themselves from society to a u-topia (a non-place) will leave those of us still in the world looking like mere mortals and suckers.  If you were honest (as well as the readers), they would see that you took the word abstract and simply tried to spin it into its opposite - strategically I think it was a really stupid choice, likely to persuade maybe 20% of the readers.  However, to the smarties out there, we can tell this is a chink in your armor because you heaved such a "repeat the lie until they believe" it approach.  (Personally, I think it would be better to argue something along the lines of why principles such as yours would spread organically, or start a "wild-fire" or all we can hope for is discrete communities of freedom and you seek to create that - but you didn't make those arguments)  

I also should never have used the word "libertarian" - it's not even clear what that means.  I consider myself a socialist-libertarian which is the commonly deployed synonym for an anarchist.  However, I still have a syndicalist tendency which means I DO NOT seek to drop out of society to bathe myself with the pure ivory lather of absolute rejectionary principles such as "humans are finished", "I want no part of society", and "kill the predators" orated from an isolated pad near some landing strip.  That's fine - this seems to be your sort of thing and probably only really available to those who have that almost half-million to make decisions that avoid all real-world consequences.  But I get it - you still think I'm the abstract one because I don't hate all of humanity and move away from them like you did.  

Not saying your intellect isn't hot, but c'mon, you at least have to admit that the program you're espousing is much more in line with that of the ruling elite's aspirations than any of us plebs here on ZH.  I mean, you're in an isolated redoubt hundreds of kms from humanity, accessible only by plane, you hate everyone in the world, and call yourself an anarchist.  Doesn't that sum up a Rockefeller, more or less?  I mean, the only reason you can espouse all of this "it's all fiction, it's all invented" stuff is that you paid to remove yourself from these fictions.  This is not meant as an attack on your argument, because who you are doesn't change the power of your argument.  However, as someone who cares about community and changing the world together, I do have to push the issue and ask you WTF are the rest of us outside of Capital City supposed to do?  

Anyway - leseson to all.  If you can become like Ann - do it.  I know I would if I was a full-blown rich autistic.  However, I still retain love for my brothers and sister - as dirty as we are - and we're called as both beings gifted to be born on this earth to be the land's stewards and our brothers' keepers.  Walking away and then projecting your "humans are scum - it's all a fiction" ethics as if it is a solution when universalized is supremely irresponsible.  Certainly it verges on irrefutability because, as I mentioned, it completely skips over any of the real hard work and labor required to change the world (which most of us here are used to). 

Anyway, you've reminded me that I should just return to the land as well and fully embrace my hatred for everyone. However, something about my soul and conscience keeps me slogging through the mud of social fictions to try to improve our shared lot.   

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 03:03 | 5750864 honestann
honestann's picture

Well, it helps for us both to read more messages, and figure out where we're both coming from.

You are mistaken about my application of the term "abstraction".  The fact is, I was surprised to learn that terms like "water" are in fact abstractions... and that only terms that refer to specific concretes are not abstractions.  So I'm not surprised that others draw that false conclusion about the term too.

island == abstraction

Maui == concrete

Because of some very popular and pervasive but utterly inverted insanities that apparently trace back to Plato and "platonic ideals", some people call the concrete (like "Maui") an "instance" (of the "ideal" or "abstraction").  But that's completely back-ass-wards and utterly wrong.  It is the concrete that is real, and abstractions are derived from concretes.

Anyway, I'm not trying to fake anyone out about anything... ever.  What you probably don't know about me because you haven't read enough of my past messages, is that I am part of a team implementing "smarter than human inorganic consciousness".  I will add that I'm not the original inventor, and I will also add that he had already built a working proof-of-principle prototype of "smarter than human consciousness" that worked before I joined the collaboration.  The problem was... this first implementation was also much slower than human consciousness, which rendered the technology essentially impractical (circa 1998).

Nonetheless, since I've joined the collaboration to implement a faster-than-human update of his technology, I've come to thoroughly understand the nature and architecture (and valid and effective application-of) advanced consciousness.  And so, I've come to understand the nature of consciousness rather clearly these past few years, and so, I know what an abstraction is.  I mean, in reality.  If you and everyone else want to have your own definition of "abstract" or "abstraction", then go ahead.  I made exactly the same mistake before I went through dozens if not hundreds of hours of vigorous "brainstorming" sessions.  Well, okay, I was "learning" but not easily and not without a lot of resistance... because as you can see, I don't accept anything until I see the light... really see the light... and really understand.  Which now I do.  I'm usually "far ahead" of most people, and it was a humbling, but incredibly exciting experience to be on the other end of the spectrum for once.  Enough said about that.  Just... I know what is abstract, at least for technical purposes.  And I try to be precise in what I write, even though everything you read here is stream of consciousness and off the top of my head... and I type at warp 9.98 so I also leave quite a few typos along the way.

Anyway, I was just trying to be clear and precise, not "conventional".

About "brothers and sisters".  I agree.  The problem is, I can't find many.  Maybe a dozen at most on the planet... though I know there must be at least thousands more worthy but unknown to me.

But, therein may lie a big difference.  Just sharing the same general form of DNA does NOT make me include someone as a "brother or sister".  I am much more selective.  And frankly, I have to say, I advise you rethink your criteria for considering someone your "brother or sister".  Actually, I tend to hate family (because by implication the bond and value judgement is arbitrary, non-intellectual, non-ethical and unchosen).  I would prefer "comrade" or some other term that doesn't pop to mind, even though the term "comrade" has some seriously negative baggage too.

I don't hate everyone, but I do feel something like revulsion because I know they had just as much evidence as I did at age 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and beyond, and chose to IGNORE reality to gain short term comfort.  So... am somewhere in the middle.  I do not find any kinsmanship with those who made zero or little effort to figure out the reason for the endless obvious lies that permeated society... just to get a pat on the head now and then, or be treated better by disingenuous liars that only deserve revulsion.

I think most people are victims, even if they are also complicit with the predators who victimized them from birth until death.  And so, I don't "hate humans".

Rather, I am simply honest, as my moniker makes clear is my prime directive (100% honest with self, no exceptions).  And I am honest with others too, unless I need to be dishonest in self-defense (but never to harm others or gain unearned value).

And that honestly leads me to say this.  If you want to have warm fuzzy feelings for your "brothers and sisters", I suggest you consider your limited time, scale and scope, and reserve your warm fuzzy feelings for that teenie, tiny minority of human beings who... actually deserve your concern.  I believe you'll find that is "not many", certainly in percentage terms (though it might be higher where you live than where I have lived).

But I will add, that while I consider most humans victims, I am also aware that they aid, obey, fund, defend, sanction, finance and support those predators who abuse us all.  And since I believe they are responsible for their actions, I very much do not appreciate that part of their "belief system" that deems "I too must be forced to aid, obey, fund, defend, sanction, finance and support those predators".  And so I add that negative to the total, and humans end up not being net positive in my book... especially when I clearly see what glorious and impressive creatures they could be.

My statement that "humans are finished" and "humans are a failed species" are NOT what I wish was fact, and not what I wish was my honest conclusion.  However, as I said above, I am 100% honest with myself at all times on all issues... period.

And so, these are simply my honest assessments.  And I very much believe I need honest assessments, because they lead me to take practical concrete actions for the rest of my time here on earth, rather than take impractical, self-defeating, predator-promoting actions.  And because being clear can help everyone else who reads and thinks for themselves, I offer these thoughts for your consideration, and for the consideration of everyone else.  Not to look down on people, but to help them.  The good ones.  The few I care about, because the rest are hopeless.

Beware fictions.  They will be your undoing, and the cause of the most misery and harm you will suffer in your life.  And the same goes for everyone else.

PS:  I love fiction.  My life is fiction.  But that's because I am always clear what is fiction, and what is real.  What is possible fiction and what is inherently bogus.  Think about it.  I'm a scientist, engineer, inventor.  I dream up ideas, try to find ones that let me create wonderful things that do not yet exist.  Which means, they are fiction.  And when I succeed, they are no longer fiction... they are real.  I also love to watch sci-fi, which is fiction.  Often great ideas can come from fiction.  But the moment you cannot or do not clearly identify the precise nature of any fiction, and keep that in mind as you manipulate that fiction with your brain, you are dead meat.  In fact, you become completely insane (speaking technically here), and totally dominated by the fiction-spinners, the human predators-that-be.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 10:11 | 5746928 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

By the way, I'm going to go ahead and ignore  the "You are totally wrong in just about everything you said" line because you seem to prone to some drama ;)  I'm certain (having read you before) that you're not as insecure as such an opening telegraphs.   

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 02:21 | 5750805 honestann
honestann's picture

By the time I got finished answering your post, seemed like we mostly agreed.  However, I think you touched a nerve when you accused me of being totally abstract!

Hahaha.  That is a sensitive nerve for me!

BTW, probably we're both guilty of the same [non]-sin.  I have to admit I haven't read many of your posts, and probably also didn't remember which posts I've read in the past belonged to you.

Earlier tonight I read a few more of your posts and... learned you have earned a great deal of respect and admiration for being very real and concrete in thought and action.  As have I.

Like you, I realize almost everyone is totally captured by abstractions, and don't have a freaking clue how to process abstractions.  It is rare to encounter exceptions, even partial ones, so even we tend to make assumptions.  Let's call the above posts an instance of "collateral damage"... or something.

Too abstract.  Ha!  And hahahaha.

Enjoy your posts.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 01:09 | 5742060 litemine
litemine's picture

The New World Order is coning.  When everyone relies on handouts, You Will Be Told What You can or can not Do.         Kind of like now. Do you as an Individual have the Ability to say NO? Read the News.....see what happens to you when you Try.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 01:31 | 5742096 JoWazzoo
JoWazzoo's picture

STFU or you won't getany food stamps.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 01:40 | 5742125 Izznogood
Izznogood's picture

"Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares" - excuse me, I have to go wipe my tears of laughter ..

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 02:27 | 5742166 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Syriza is more capitalist than these cronies in the FED, the ECB, the IMF and the World Bank.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 02:44 | 5742186 Batman11
Batman11's picture

Socialism doesn't work as the human race is motivated by self-interest and greed (well the majority).

But calling everything that doesn't work Socialism is ridiculous.

 

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:07 | 5742502 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

Marxist social theory is also premised on self-interest.  I think this is something people don't understand - Marx viewed socialism then communism as an extension and indeed culmination of capitalism and these motivations that humans have.  Think about it - under the current system, is it in the interest of the vast majority - who have the numbers - to overthrown the 1% or whatever you want to call them.  Liberation is one of the strongest self-interests.  The idea of socialism/communism isn't that suddenly everyone decides to "be nice" and "share" by discounting and denying this self-interest.  Rather, socialism/communism (so the theory goes) is premised on the fulfillment of this self-interest.  Socialism as I understood it is a more conscious understanding of self-interest, rather than a strict denial of it.  If anything, life in a corrupt capitalist system seems to deny the self-interest of the vast majority.  The statistically minute "chance" to benefit from the system is spun as self-interest and a healthy state/economy.  However, this sense of self-interest is about as robust as claiming the purchase of a lottery ticket is in your self-interest.   

Now on to "greed".  It isn't as obvious that "greed" is a primary motivation of all people.  Indeed, greed is a social vice - vilified by many societies and religions as much as murder is (and if you claim that the human race is motivated by murder - there is a glint of reality to that, but it's such a stretch that the category is becoming somewhat meaningless).  Greed can be worked out of (or at least discouraged in) the system, inasmuch as greed harms others and we can come to clearly see this.  At present, greed might come across as "self-interest" in that it is accumulation of power, but in a larger context, greed destroys societies and indeed people themselves.  As such, it is not really in "self-interest" individually or writ large.  

Socialism/communism doesn't require the "self-interest" to be usurped by the "interests of all".  It only requires that all of us "selves" realize that is in our interest to overthrow the system.  When we band together and see our shared individual self-interests, the reality of the "big-picture" and "long term" sense of "self-interest", which is located in the community around us, becomes apparent - overthrow the elite who run us.  This is the rally point - the muster grounds - of communists and libertarian patriots.  We hardly should be fighting about how to cut the pie when we haven't even managed to steal but a baking tin from the elite.  

An important thing about communism in effect is not that the infrastructre in place need to be destroyed or changed, it simply has to be run by different people with a larger sense of "self-interest".  Some dictators have thought it necessary to force collective self-interest (re-education, creepy state-control shit) on their populations, but these people are fascists, whether they were Mao or Obama, Communist or Liberal.  This is why we should avoid jumping on anti-this or anti-that tropes as movements under various names and colors arise to challenge the elite.  Take them for what they actually fight for - the colors and names are mostly historical nostalgia at the point we're up against a corporate-technocratic elite.  

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 03:23 | 5742229 thegr8whorebabylon
thegr8whorebabylon's picture

Brussels will not let Greece go because Brussels wants moar $$$.

Remember when Ron Paul said his first act as president would be to send all of Washington home?  That's Brussels, the beast needs its' feast.

 

https://prowlingowlpolitiks.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/political-spectr...

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 03:30 | 5742237 thegr8whorebabylon
thegr8whorebabylon's picture

"And that got Greece where it is. That’s why Europe set up a ‘union’ that shares a currency but that has no provisions to transfer funds from – even temporarily – weak regions from stronger ones. Even the US has that, or it would have imploded long ago. It’s the kind of thing that makes you wonder if maybe the EU wasn’t set up from the start so Germany could exploit the Mediterranean."

So, that was supposed to be phase two of the Euro, after the monetary union, the fiscal union.  They were advised to set this up at the start, but said, 'no, let's just get this baby off the ground and then we'll come back and patch it up.  So there you go.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 03:49 | 5742256 thegr8whorebabylon
thegr8whorebabylon's picture

I like what we've seen of Syzria so far, but a few things trouble me;  Tsipras joined the communist party at 13, where he met his wife.  He has been in Brussels a lot.  He is athiest.  He's way too charismatic, good looking, cool. Varofakis has been 'vetted' by the ptb while teaching in the US. These guys are too shiny and new to be true. I'm nervous this might be another Washington 'deep game'.

 

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 03:49 | 5742257 thegr8whorebabylon
thegr8whorebabylon's picture

I like what we've seen of Syzria so far, but a few things trouble me;  Tsipras joined the communist party at 13, where he met his wife.  He has been in Brussels a lot.  He is athiest.  He's way too charismatic, good looking, cool. Varofakis has been 'vetted' by the ptb while teaching in the US. These guys are too shiny and new to be true. I'm nervous this might be another Washington 'deep game'.

 

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 07:45 | 5742476 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

I hear you on this.  My concern is that - for example - Varofakis is one of these sort of "tech futurist" types.  They very much appear on the surface to be anti-authoritarian and for a big change in the order of economics/governance.  However, you wonder if they're not just creepy matrix-of-control types that were crafted to "out-left" (and i suppose also "out-right") revolutionary tendencies that actually present an active opposition to TPTB.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 06:55 | 5742430 slowimplosion
slowimplosion's picture

Crony capitalism is not socialism.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 07:24 | 5742453 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

I'm glad someone finally said this clearly and succinctly:  

"Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares, and that’s not what those US government handouts are about. They’re about keeping people quiet in a failed system. "

To move forward, libertarians here need to shake off the right-wing trappings that cause them to attribute "socialism" or "communism" (and the resultant anti-statism or red-baiting) to Obama.  That dude is a failed neo-liberal capitalist and his handouts are NOT socialism.  The FSA is not the society that true anti-authoritarian socialists believe in.  I'm a proud socialist libertarian and I respect whatever discrete and sovereign communites want to do internally if it is freely, openly, and with full information agreed upon by a majority.  However, universal rules of "do no harm" apply.  Keeping people quiet with fiat printed handouts is doing harm indeed.  

If we're going to win this fight against the elite and bankers, we need to learn to operate with allies who share basic liberatory principles.  Yes, Stalin, Mao, et al. are scary authoritarians, but they're also not what most true communists/socialists want.  In any case - to have that fight out amongst us, we first need to get rid of the elite pulling the strings and pushing the divide and conquer.  We first need to clean the slate before we can fight among ourselves (or as I prefer to see it, disperse into our various preferred sovereign communities and trade with each other). 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 09:47 | 5742654 Mike Honcho
Mike Honcho's picture

Nice try jackaboo.  Read up on capitalism in America pre financialization of everything, aka pre 1971 gold standard eradication.  People helped eachother via community.  Free health care for those who need it, ask Ron Paul.  Churches and community orgs helping feed people etc.  It is the rotting of society not the capitalist model.

Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares, well isnt that just soft and sweet.  That is the weakest description to date.  People who are "right wing" believe in the old system that was not perfect but worked.  5% of the worlds population created the majority of the worlds wealth, not a bad statement. 

The artilce ignores the folly of humans and even primates. 

I like how you slide Stalin and Mao in at the end, they were the bad apples.  Yeah, worse mass murdering systems in modern history.  But dont let that put a stain on socialism.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:16 | 5742758 writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

Not even a good try - here are some pointers....

People helped eachother via community

That's more related to poverty than and money standard. People are helping each other now more and more through community, not because the money base has changed, but because they have little else.

 Free health care for those who need it, ask Ron Paul.

...and who decides who is 'needy'? - you once again gloss over the hard part.

Churches and community orgs helping feed people etc

Religion may be charitable, but it's also about control. Why didn't the church help people by encouraging them to rise up against their 'masters'? THe church is merely an older form of control of one man over another.

 5% of the worlds population created the majority of the worlds wealth, not a bad statement. 

You're confused between 'money' and 'wealth', even a hardened capitalist has to accept that the labour used to produce his goods and services (and ultimately his profit) were the main contributers to the amassing of capital.

I like how you slide Stalin and Mao in at the end, they were the bad apples.  Yeah, worse mass murdering systems in modern history.  But dont let that put a stain on socialism

Surely a) the Nazi's were far better at mass murder? 

b) There isn't a system that hasn't mass murdered, that's because all these systems are based on control of one man over another, this current one included. Surely the millions of innocents killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are a stain on 'capitalist democracy'? or the mass killings of 2 world wars a stain on a gold backed monetary system?


Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:27 | 5742981 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

"Surely a) the Nazi's were far better at mass murder? "

1. Why you would think that's a counterpoint, I don't know, since the NAZI (National Socialist German Workers Party) were socialists as well. "Fascism" is just a name for a particular historical brand of socialism, like "Maoism" or "Leninism."

2. No, actually, the Soviets and Chinese communists were far better as mass murder if we're going by the raw totals. Hitler killed about 11 million people. The Soviets and Chinese each killed in excess of 20 million. If you want to compare socialist butchery on a per capita basis, however, Pol Pot takes the cake. His government slaughtered approximately 1/3 of the entire population of Cambodia in a four year period.

Are you feeling the love, comrade?

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:33 | 5742990 Mike Honcho
Mike Honcho's picture

Trying to confuse the debate doesnt prove your point.  Capitalism vs socialism is the debate.  Now you bring in money standards, which neither has a constant form.

...and who decides who is 'needy'?  - WTF does that even mean or apply to?

Statement that communities helped out and you go into how religion is a control via masters, extremely off topic.

Not confused on money vs wealth.  The statement I made was accurate.

Stalin and Mao statement was accurate.  You detract to Hitler.  Iraq and Afgan have nothing to do with capitalism.

Fail, miserably at that.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:59 | 5743096 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

I sort of agree with Honcho's response to the guy who defended me.  However, I still don't think much of what you said Honcho was responsive to my argument.  

Let's break off the bits that we can chew.  I'm interested in talking about going off the gold standard and the development of central banks - I wrote a comment further down here that discusses these moves in capitalism/finance capitalism to quash revolutionary tendencies resulting from wealth disparities.  I think the important thing to notice is that this whole conversation can only take place in a post-industrialized world.  It is useless to bring in some magical pre-1800s world - we can only stick with what we got.   

As for Stalin and Mao - I don't get the previous guy's comment.  I never used the Hitler in my example because he was a National Socialist...which sort of feeds the perception that it's Socialists who kill a lot.  However, let's be honest, capitalism has killed just as many and consigned a large portion of the world to various forms of wage and debt slavery.  Making comparisons of leaders as a hallmark of an ideology's relevance is stupid anyway.  This was mainly my point about juxtaposing Mao and Obama, communist and liberal.   

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 12:14 | 5743162 Grimaldus
Grimaldus's picture

"I never used the Hitler in my example because he was a National Socialist...which sort of feeds the perception that it's Socialists who kill a lot.  However, let's be honest, capitalism has killed just as many and consigned a large portion of the world to various forms of wage and debt slavery."

Wow dude you are a slimey one. What total bullshit. Progressives not only sit on the biggest throne of corpses but they are also masters of the current debt suck destroying the world at the moment.

Here are the numbers for death by socialist government. Let's see your numbers for death by capitalism. Since you wont be posting any, how about just FOAD?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE6.HTM

Grimaldus

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:55 | 5743077 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

There are Libertarians who engage in reality - then there are people like Honcho.  "People helped each other by community"  His totally anhistorical account of a magical time when everyone helped each other is the stuff of John Stuart Mill.  I honestly thought he was referring to an antediluvian imaginary.  It seems he was talking about some sort of properly functioning America in the 1800s?  

It's a nice fantasy - about as grounded in fact and reality as "socialism caused all the bad".  It's not even engaging with my arguments.  

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 12:51 | 5743319 Mike Honcho
Mike Honcho's picture

I avoid complex debate via text for reasons displayed here.  It is reduced to self preservation at the cost of logical interjections.  Name calling - eg Libertarian, you cannot derive that from anything ive posted on this site.  Distortion - eg referring to the 1800s when this is clearly about modern forms.

You clearly dont understand the fabric of what American society was.  Again the topic is cap vs soc, capitalism was successful before it died and socialism has continually failed.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 08:04 | 5746429 U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D
U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D's picture

Honcho thinks it's cap vs. soc, but he has declared capitalism to have died, and I guess socialism to be every other regime in existence...which has continually failed.  I'm not even following his logic - if capitalism died, did it stop continually failing as well at some point?  

It's hard to argue with people who don't engage, declare a meta position (this is why I don't debate on text), then attempt frame the entire debate without responding 'it's cap vs. soc".  That's not even an interesting or relevant "vs" my friend.   

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 07:29 | 5742459 EddieLomax
EddieLomax's picture

A confused article, on one hand they say how American policies of helping its regions are why it works better than the EU, but then attacking the same institution for Detroits failure.

Overall the message is wrong, we are in this mess because we debased the currency by trying to socialize losses and get future generations to pay for our living standards of today.  With each step we allow a small group of people in Whitehall or DC to decide the economic priorities of the many, the free market always works better because it involves the decisions of millions instead.

While I don't advocate letting people starve to death, we have gone way beyond being charitable with those who lose out.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 07:36 | 5742467 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1 it is confused because it banks on the confusion over the very word "union"

if the author would make the same argument with the US vs UN instead of US vs EU... the hollowness of his argumentation would be clearer

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 07:43 | 5742475 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Let me summarise the historical thread as I see it :

THe Popes destroyed Catholicism's hold by their own corruption, as epitomised by their sale of indulgences and their active participation in local wars over three centuries. (Guelf Ghibelline wars). It ended the feudal age and spawned the nation-state, new European rage.

The Europeans destroyed their own nation-state civilization in industrial age greed exemplified by the great grab of African territories and Ottoman decomposition of its soft Arabian underbelly. Two world wars later and Europe's civilization was in ruins; all to protect their ingrained pride in nation-state, now an imperial dream of frustrated Prussian lebensraum that looked East to see immense Russia and West to see Britain/France imperial sway. The beast of national-fascism destoyed nation-state Europe.

The current US Pax Americana empire created the capitalist model of the universsally accepted WS asset marker of supply and demand. Its corruption is now signalling the downfall of financially "optimised" Capitalism.

THese three examples just show us that NO IDEOLOGY is immune to its own collapse over time.

As human aspirations evolve and condemn past equilibrium as a jaded concept. Very often its the most brilliant son of that status quo mantra who is the initiator of its own decay. Think Agamemnon, think Alcibiade, think Alexander, think Caesar, think Napoleon, think Reagan-Bush and consorts. 

History is our mirror into the future. And it plays out as a repeat game time and again for the same hidden reasons until they can no longer be hidden.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:09 | 5742498 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Here is the deal.  Nobody knows enough to fix this mess.  We are all a bunch of clueless monkeys trying to see patterns where there is only chaos.  It’s a bit like children staring at the clouds and seeing giants.  The system is far too complex to be understood much less be micromanaged.

 

We have over the last 200 years built an organic system that depends on cheap fossil fuels to function.  In our push for efficiency we have removed all redundancy.  In the process we have built a highly complex and rigid system.

 

We are now facing Liebig’s Law of the Minimum.  Cheap oil is the one ingredient necessary for exponential growth.  Wake up, we are steam cleaning sand for Christ’s sake.  Cheap oil is in our past. 

 

 

We are now suffering exponential contraction.   We are in the collapse.   There is no political solution beyond efforts to manage our descent.  

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:05 | 5742733 writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

I concur with your outlook, the system never really 'ran' - it was being subsidised by mother earth and the damage she took supporting it.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 08:14 | 5742510 Grimaldus
Grimaldus's picture

"The US, like western Europe, is in the midst of a massive failure of its brand of PROGRESSIVISM.

There, fixed it for ya.

PROGREESSIVES are in charge and have been for awhile. Embrace the suck.

Grimaldus

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:04 | 5742724 writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

The US, like western Europe, is in the midst of a massive failure of its brand of capitalism

Nearly correct, but it's not a brand of capitalism that's failing, it's CAPITALISM that failing.

It actually started failing the moment a Government was forced to step in and rescue the capitalist class - that was MANY years before this crisis. However Capitalists will always claim that 'this capitalism' isn't capitalism and therefore it has not failed.

The truth is capitalism is a system which will sefl destruct, it's all there in diaetical materialism, for the few that actually bothered to read and understand it. The rest are all happy to take someone elses word for it.

I'm glad that some people realise that 'this' is not socialism, but I'm afraid when people are strupid and need to be fed a good vs evil mantra (which fits nicely with their trained thinking through religion and other means) - the need a ying to the yang, and socialism fits the bill nicely.

Considering socialism is actualy a transitional stage, on the way to communism, demonstrates how ill-informed some peopel really are. 

Can you imagine what would happen in the US if the government pay-outs were halted? If there were no more foodstamps? The epic failure of the economic system would come to light in too many ways to mention. But one thing’s for sure, it would create one big mess of chaos and unrest that would sweep across the streets of the country like a tidal wave.

Yes, that is what capitlaism 'requires' to survive, chaos and unrest. Is that a society you want? Well I think I can handle that but I think the more vulnerable - and those I include the wealthy but weak, are not going to fare well.

 

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:37 | 5742834 Vin
Vin's picture

@writingsonthewall

That's called fascism.  This is exactly what Musolini had in mind.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 10:37 | 5742823 Vin
Vin's picture

"The US, like western Europe, is in the midst of a massive failure of its brand of capitalism."

What bullshit.  There's no capitalism in the US, it's complete facism.  The govt is owned by the bankers and their henchmen. 

Tue, 02/10/2015 - 12:38 | 5766684 Oscar Mayer
Oscar Mayer's picture

Fascism is Capitalism carried to its conclusion

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:07 | 5742927 TehGrumpyOldGuy
TehGrumpyOldGuy's picture

The human race is a failure... all the ism's that come along with the disease known as humans are a moot point now.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 11:12 | 5742931 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

“That’s why Europe set up a ‘union’ that shares a currency but that has no provisions to transfer funds from – even temporarily – weak regions from stronger ones. Even the US has that, or it would have imploded long ago. It’s the kind of thing that makes you wonder if maybe the EU wasn’t set up from the start so Germany could exploit the Mediterranean.” A. Europe does have a mechanism to transfer wealth from the richer to the poorer member states. It's called the ECB. It prints money to buy PIIGS sovereign debt, at the expense of inflation throughout the EMU (where the fuck have you been for the last 6 years). And then there's the direct state-to-state bailouts (about which you bitch, but which are precisely what you're asking for in this article). B. There shouldn't be a mechanism to transfer wealth from the richer to the poorer member states. All that does is encourage reckless behavior by the latter, which is precisely what's happened. As soon as the PIIGS joined the EMU, their bond yields dropped, because of the implicit assumption (which proved correct) that Germany et al would backstop those debts – which allowed the PIIGS to be even more fiscally irresponsible than they had been in the past, spending increasing amounts of money on increasingly unproductive, useless, socialist bullshit, accumulating huge debts in the process. C. And just how the fuck does this help Germany? They pay out huge sums of money to the PIIGS, directly and through inflation, in exchange for what? Ah yes, “control” over the PIIIGS governments – which they use to....try to get their fucking money back! Yes yes, brilliant master plan for world domination.

“As the troika demands have turned Greece into a third world nation.” No, the Greek government's moronic economic policies (massive welfare spending, nationalized industries, rigidly regulated markets, high taxes – aka socialism lite) turned Greece into a third world nation. Membership in the EU allowed Greece to pretend that it wasn't for a while, as it gorged itself on cheap credit – made possible by those aforementioned wealth transfer programs.

“If you think about it, it’s not much different from how US policies have turned Detroit, and many other places, into semi-hellholes.” Yes, the same socialistic economic policies that destroyed Detroit have destroyed Greece.

“It all comes down to a system that is failing spectacularly. Failing, that is, even if it’s intentional: there are plenty Darwinists and neo-liberals who would swear the poor only get what they deserve. Just as Brussels apparently saw the Greeks: let ‘em bleed, let ‘em suffer, let ‘em die, it’s only because they borrowed too much.” That seems to be the limit of your understanding of economics – duh capitalism makes duh poor poorer, dep, therefore more government iz betterer, derp, cuz deh government wants tuh help duh people n stuff.

“This is not about Greece, this is about ideology, about economics as a belief system, a system so blind it sacrifices real people and proclaims that is a good thing: ‘much progress had been made’. Some people are saying: you need to help these people who end up on the wrong side of the economic tracks, while others invoke Darwin. But you need to ask how they got where they are, or you’ll never solve the issue, you’ll just need up murdering people. And whether they deserve it or not, murder is not legal, Mr. Dijsselbloem. And neither is using your job to put people into misery, not even if your economic beliefs say that’s alright.” Economics is not a “belief system,” it is a science. Though it (like physics or chemistry or any other science) might appear like magic or nonsense to someone ignorant of its principles (such as yourself). And those EU apparatchiks that you're attacking share the same idiotic ideas as you: they do not understand free market capitalism, they believe in central planning. They, and you, and the millions of ignorant voters like you, are responsible for Greece's problems – not those precious few of us advocating free market capitalism.

“In the US, a lot of people complain about how the country has turned into a socialist bastion. And even taking into account that the word has a very different connotation stateside than it does in Europe and other parts of the world, it’s simply not correct, it doesn’t fit. The US, like western Europe, is in the midst of a massive failure of its brand of capitalism.” If by “its brand of capitalism” you mean socialism, you'd be correct.

“There are no free markets, no price discovery, there are asset bubbles being blown...Yes, 40 million Americans are on food stamps, 100 million are not even officially in the labor force, and perhaps as much as most Americans are receiving some sort of government assistance, but that doesn’t make it socialism. It makes it a failed capitalist system.” Uh no, that makes it not a capitalist system at all.

“Socialism is supposed to be about a society that cares” ROFLMAO!

“Nothing to do with socialism, that’s a political ideology, like capitalism is. There’s not much between them, once you put people first in either.” And....you've now revealed that you have zero knowledge of the subject on which you're speaking. My suggestion would be to stop speaking. Try listening instead.

Tue, 02/10/2015 - 12:35 | 5766663 Oscar Mayer
Oscar Mayer's picture

Capitalism, like socialism, is an abject failure.

It is long past time to give liberty a chance.

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