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Guest Post: How Vaccine Hysteria Could Spark A Totalitarian Nightmare
Authored by Lee Hieb, M.D., originally published at World Net Daily, via Alt-Market blog,
Gov. Chris Christie has been vilified for making a very simple statement – that parents (and presumably patients themselves) should have the freedom to choose whether to vaccinate their children. I have been asked for years what I thought about vaccination, so let me lay out the issues.
Before getting into the science, lets discuss the philosophy:
1. The voices shrieking to forcibly vaccinate people are the same voices shrieking to support a woman’s right to choose abortion under Roe v. Wade. If a woman’s body is sacrosanct, if she has the right to choose to deliver a child or not, if she has total authority over her body, how can she not have the right to accept or refuse a vaccination?
2. Medical ethics are clear: No one should be forced to undergo a medical treatment without informed consent and without their agreement to the treatment. We condemn the forced sterilization of the ’20s and ’30s, the Tuskegee medical experiments infecting black inmates and the Nazi medicine that included involuntary “Euthanasia,” experimentation and sterilization. How can we force vaccination without consent? Vaccination is a medical treatment with risks including death. It is totally antithetical to all ethics in medicine to mandate that risk to others.
3. Science is never “concluded.” Mr. Obama and other ideologues may think the truth is finalized (“The science is indisputable”), but the reality is our understanding of disease and treatment are constantly being updated. Just like Newton’s mechanical paradigm of the universe was supplanted by Einsteinian physics, and physicists today modify that view, medical “truth” is not the truth for long. In an attempt to quantify change in medicine, years ago a cardiology journal discussed “The Half-life of Truth.” cardiologists looked back in their journal at 20-year-old articles to see how much of what was believed then was still believed to be true. The answer? 50 percent. So in cardiology, at least – and in all of medicine to greater or lesser degree – only half of what we believe now will still be true in 20 or so years. The last word on vaccination is not in. It hasn’t even begun to be written.
4. If you believe absolutely in the benefit and protective value of vaccination, why does it matter what others do? Or don’t do? If you believe you need vaccination to be healthy and protected, then by all means vaccinate your child and yourself. Why should you even be concerned what your neighbor chooses to do for his child – if vaccination works? The idea of herd immunity is still based on the idea that in individual cases vaccines actually are protective.
5. If you think the government has the right to forcibly vaccinate people – for the good of society – what is to prevent them from forcibly sterilizing people, or forcibly euthanizing people, or forcibly implanting a tracking device – for the good of society? You make think those examples are extreme (although two-thirds have happened), but the principle is the same. You are allowing government to have ultimate authority over your body.
So, I’ve been asked, “Why not vaccinate your children? Why not take the influenza vaccine?” Well, I believe the choice is up to you. I’ve covered my thinking about the influenza vaccine in an article in the Journal of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, available online, but here are some facts about childhood vaccines that make me think twice about their use. I traced these points back to the source, so these are not blindly reprinted from hearsay Internet articles. In some cases I found public references to be wrong but the data to be correct when I got to the source. Much of this comes from government reporting. Anyone can research disease incidence by reading MMWR (Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report) from the CDC and accessing the search engine for VAERS (Vaccine complication reporting site) at http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/index.php.
1. Since 2005 (and even before that), there have been no deaths in the U.S. from measles, but there have been 86 deaths from MMR vaccine – 68 of them in children under 3 years old. And there were nearly 2,000 disabled.
2. In countries which use BCG vaccinations against tuberculosis, the incidence of Type I diabetes in children under 14 is nearly double. (“Infectious Disease in Clinical Practice” no. 6 pages 449-454, 1997)
3. As reported in Lancet in 1995, inflammatory bowel disease (i.e. Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis) is 13 times more prevalent in persons vaccinated for measles.
4. In a nested case-control study within the General Practice Research Database (GPRD) in the United Kingdom, patients who had a first MS (Multiple Sclerosis) diagnosis recorded were compared with controls. The authors concluded that immunization with the recombinant hepatitis B vaccine is associated with a threefold increased risk of developing MS (Hernan et al., 2004). No increased risk of MS was associated with other vaccines, which included tetanus and influenza vaccinations.
5. In 1982 William Torch, a prolific researcher and publisher on Neurologic topics, presented a paper (later published) at the American Academy of Neurology reviewing SIDS deaths. He reported that in 100 consecutive cases, 70 percent of SIDS deaths occurred within three weeks of pertussis vaccination. In very convincing confirmation, a Japanese prefecture stopped vaccinating after associating SIDS with the pertussis vaccine. It is worth reading the entire description from Viera Scheibner, PhD:
In 1975, about 37 Crib Sudden Deaths were linked to vaccination in Japan. Doctors in one prefecture boycotted vaccinations, and refused to vaccinate. The Japanese government paid attention and stopped vaccinating children below the age of 2 years. When immunization was delayed until a child was 24 months of age, Sudden Infant Death cases and claims for vaccine related deaths disappeared. Japan zoomed from a high 17th place in infant mortality rate to the lowest infant mortality rate in the world when they stopped vaccinating. Japan didn’t vaccinate any children below the age of 2 years between 1975 and 1988, for 13 years. But then in 1988, Japanese parents were given the choice to start vaccinating anywhere between 3 months and 48 months. The Ministry study group studied 2,720 SIDS cases occurring between 1980 and 1992 and they established that their very low SIDS rate quadrupled.
6. A mail survey was done of 635 children in the Netherlands in 2004. German measles and whooping cough (pertussis) were twice as common in unvaccinated children. However, throat inflammations, ear infections, rheumatologic complaints, seizures and febrile convulsions were much more common in the vaccinated group. Aggressive behavioral episodes were eight times more frequent in vaccinated children, and sleep disordered more often. Tonsils were removed in 33 percent of children who had been vaccinated vs. 7.3 percent unvaccinated.
7. In 1947, the first reports of brain inflammation and chronic brain damage, including death, after pertussis vaccination began to be published (Brody, 1947; Byers and Moll, 1948, Low, 1955, Berg, 1958; Strom, 1960, 1967; Dick, 1967, 1974; Kuhlenkampff, 1974; Stewart, 1977, 1979). But it took more than 40 years of collective evidence before academic medicine decided it was true –1981 National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES) and in 1991 and 1994 by the Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences.
In 1991, after reviewing vaccine safety, the Institute of Medicine admitted, “In the course of its review, the committee encountered many gaps and limitations in knowledge bearing directly or indirectly on the safety of vaccines. These include inadequate understanding of the biologic mechanisms underlying adverse events following natural infection or immunization, insufficient or inconsistent information from case reports and case series, inadequate size or length of followup of many population based epidemiologic studies [and] few experimental studies published in relation to the number of epidemiologic studies published.”
So the next question is: Does vaccination work? Does it really protect you against disease? The answer is variable. Smallpox vaccine seems to be nearly universally protective against the very fatal disease of smallpox, and use of vaccine led to the eradication of the disease in the wild. But the dirty little secret in recent outbreaks of mumps, measles and pertussis is – they are occurring in vaccinated people in highly vaccinated populations!
In 2006 an epidemic of mumps broke out in my state of Iowa. Ultimately, 11 states reported 2,597 cases of mumps. The majority of mumps cases (1,487) were reported from Iowa. As reported in “Mumps Epidemic – Iowa, 2006,” “Despite control efforts and a highly vaccinated population, this epidemic has spread across Iowa and potentially to neighboring states.” According to the CDC, “During the prevaccine era, nearly everyone in the United States experienced mumps, and 90 percent of cases occurred among children, although 97 percent of children entering school in Iowa had received two doses of MMR vaccine. ” Of note, this outbreak mostly occurred in young adults of college age who had received the vaccine. Only 6 percent of those affected were known to be unvaccinated, 12 percent received one dose of MMR vaccine, 51 percent had two doses of MMR vaccine, and 31 percent (mostly adults) were not sure of their immunization history.
In 2008-2009, Australia had epidemics of whooping cough and measles. Health authorities there must reveal the vaccination status of children in epidemics. Eighty-four percent of Australian children who got whooping cough were fully vaccinated, and 78 percent who got measles had record of measles vaccination.
In the 2010 outbreak of whooping cough in California, well over half the victims were fully vaccinated.
Whooping cough continuously declined in the U.S. from over 100,000 cases in 1922 to around 1978 when 2,063 cases were reported. That year, pertussis vaccine became mandated for school attendance. Beginning around 1995, when the U.S. had 5,137 cases, the incidence has increased, to 2012 when over 48,000 cases were reported, including 20 deaths. The majority of deaths were in newborns under three months of age. Why is this happening? It is not because people are not becoming vaccinated. The CDC says more than 84 percent of children under 3 years old have been vaccinated with four doses of pertussis vaccine. But the current vaccine does not include all strains of pertussis. And the most vulnerable to the disease – the small infants – are not able to take the vaccine. Since older children and adults are much less likely to die of whooping cough, the question that must be asked is this: Is vaccination effective in producing antibody transfer from mother to infant? Or is it better to allow the natural disease to occur?
Finally, it turns out that death and disability from many childhood diseases is preventable by means other than vaccination. Vitamin A has been known since the 1930s to reduce mortality from measles by 60 percent. Vitamin D is protective against viral illness. And numerous authors and studies have shown the damaging effects of chemical antipyretics (fever lowering drugs) on the natural course of disease – a practice still sadly in widespread use in America. Better understanding of disease mechanisms, utilizing nutritional support and better scientific care of the sick child are safer alternatives to widespread vaccination.
Perhaps one of the best perspectives on the whole vaccination paradigm is provided by Dr. Harold Buttram, M.D., FAACP:
As one of today’s senior citizens who grew up in a Midwestern state in the 1930s, and as a doctor who has treated many children, I may have a special vantage point of time and experience in regard to the changes that have taken place in the health of America’s children since the relatively innocent times of the 1930s. At summer camps in the New Mexico Mountains that I was fortunate to attend, no boy had allergies, none was on medication, and no boy was ever sick with the common ailments of today. It was much the same in schools. I don’t recall ever seeing a child with easily recognized behaviors now described as hyperactivity (ADHD) or autism.
Today in stark contrast, approximately one-third of our youngsters are afflicted with the 4-A Disorders (Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies), as described and documented by Dr. Kenneth Bock. School budgets are being strained to the breaking points in providing special education classes for autistic and learning disabled children. Allergy problems are proliferating, as indicated by long lines of children at school nursing stations for their noontime medications.
Could today’s infant and childhood vaccine programs, with their steadily increasing numbers of vaccines, be a contributory cause of this ominous health trend? As reflected in the U.S. Congressional Hearings (1999 to December 2004) on issues of vaccine safety, in which major deficiencies in vaccine safety testing were disclosed, it is a real possibility that vaccines may be one of the major, if not the major cause of this trend.
I, too, am old enough to remember these times. We are changing the pattern of disease, but not necessarily making our children nor ourselves healthier. We are converting benign childhood disease into more severe adult disease. Consider the chickenpox vaccine. We used to have chickenpox parties where small children were purposely exposed to kids sick with chickenpox. In those days, every mother or grandmother knew it was safer for toddlers to get the disease early and not wait until teenage years. Now we vaccinate, but of course that vaccine is only effective for 15-20 years, so now adults must constantly be revaccinated or run the risk of getting a life-threatening severe form of chickenpox. The shingles uptick is directly attributable to the lack of re-exposure of older people to the wild chickpox virus. But not to worry – the drug companies can sell us a shingles vaccine for a disease their previous vaccine created.
We have forgotten that for most normal children, childhood diseases are benign. As recounted about mumps in the Iowa Department of Public Health Manual, “it is more common in infants, children and young adults. Of people who are not immunized, >85 percent will have mumps by adulthood, but symptoms may have been mild and therefore not recognized.”
At the end of the day, the issue here is one of freedom, and freedom is the freedom to choose – even if we make a bad choice. The argument that I must vaccinate my children for the good of the community is not only scientifically questionable, it is an unethical precept. It is the argument all dictators and totalitarians have used. “Comrade, you must work tirelessly for the good of the collective. You must give up your money and property for the good of the collective, and now … you must allow us to inject your children with what we deem is good for the collective.” If American’s don’t stand up against this, then we are lost. Because we have lost ownership of ourselves. Our bodies are no longer solely ours – we and our children are able to be commandeered for the “greater good.”
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"You know, gsd, the practices of good vets seem to make more sense to me than some of what we do in the medical world. Maybe it's because there isn't any verbal communication to get in the way."
Great comment.
Vets have better practices because go vernment funding for the benefit of pharmaceutical companies has not yet been expanded to animals.
"It's about CONTROL. It's always about CONTROL."
This
Yes
I caught a shocking case of measles in 1956, which I barely remember because I was delirous for a good portion of it. That's probably just as well. I understand it was quite unpleasant. I emerged, without any medical assistance other than my mother's nursing, without any sequelae. The vast majority of us did. Its two weeks of my life I'll never get back, of course, but I can walk into any measles-ravaged room with absolute confidence that it will never strike me again. How many people contracting measles now were vaccinated and believed themselves immune? I had chicken pox, mumps and German measles, which I remember pleased me and annoyed my mother, because I couldn't go to school and the diseases were so mild. I had all of the usual childhood ailments before the 4th grade so that the illnesses didn't cause any hardship where learning was concerned. It is important that those diseases be caught while young, as they can make adolescents and adults very ill indeed, and mumps will sterilize adolescent boys and men. My sister had whooping cough as an infant, as she only had 1 immunization when she caught it. I agree with the author here and tend to feel that these vaccines were developed for profit, of course, but also for fewer absences from work for mother's of small children. Polio, of course is a different matter. I fully support that vaccination. A girl on my block got that. The recovery was lengthy and she walked like an ostrich after that, poor thing. As far as the influenza vaccine is concerned I certainly wouldn't stand in the way of anyone who wanted that, but I don't take it myself and if anyone presses I simply plead an egg allergy.
If you've had chicken pox, you can get the shingles (also known as herpes zoster). You'd be wise to get yourself immunized against that. I can assure you that if you get it, it won't be "mild" - it's known to be horribly painful. Look it on Google.
I'm aware of that, but will take the risk. It won't be the first time I've been horribly ill.
And what will be the unintended consequences of the shingles vaccine. What a racquet!! Chickenpox is no big deal in early childhood. BUt no, we have to pay pharma to vacinate our kids, so that they can be at risk of shingles when they are older so we can sell them another vaccine that will cause who knows what profit opportunity.
We must be around the same age. I got measles when it hit our elementary school and almost everybody was out sick at the same time. Our parents got us exposed to whooping cough, chicken pox and mumps by means of a conveniently arranged party at the house of a kid just coming down with it, with the rational being to just go ahead and get it over and done with. Family doctors and the public schools actually recommended doing that back then. The only vaccinations I got were for polio and TB, nobody made an issue of it.
The line in the sand here is giving government the power to force vaccinations. I say no. I don't get flu shots either because it seems to be a government and big pharma cluster fuck. Every time I hear or read the "settled science" meme, the bullshit detector goes off.
I agree. No forced vaccinations.
Andrew P. Napolitano
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/02/andrew-p-napolitano/do-you-own-your-b...
Smallpox and measles: yes to vaccines.
Flu, shingles, etc: up to you.
If you don't want to get vaccinated against measles, then be prepared to pay the price (including forcible quarantine).
that makes some sense! and it is the way it is now, we should not change that...
So you want to employ violence in order to improve "healthcare?" Reminds me of the Python sketch about curing athlete's foot with dynamite. Seventeen missing and presumed cured.
"If you don't want to get vaccinated against measles, then be prepared to pay the price (including forcible quarantine)."
If vaccination is so good, then no need to quarantine anyone without. You are vaccinated and thus protected, right? I can't see the problem.
People should have the right to make their own choices, whether you agree with them or not.
It is about time people wake up and fight the power others are trying to usurp over them.
Smallpox is deadly. Measles is not. Get the facts for yourself.
Smallpox has also been wiped out. No one gets vaccinated for it anymore. The last time I got vaccinated was in 1977 because I was traveling overseas. Sadly, the virus has been saved in the freezers of biological laboratories in several locations by several governments just in case they want to release it on enemy populations (or their own) in the future.
I was freaked out when I was inoculating eggs with cow pox for my virology class in the 80s and stuck myself something fierce. Yeah, they used to let us do some crazy ass things in college. Nasty crusty lesion formed at the site. Maybe it wasn't such a bad thing after all.
Miffed
WRONG.
This is a bulshit argument. Why is it that we continually fight things that were settled decades ago?
Look, if you choosing not to do something (like vaccinating your kid) and that harms me or my kid (by not having enough of the population vaccinated to eradicate the disease(s)) then the government has a right to mandate you to stop being an idiot.
Just vaccinate your damn kids, people.*
*This obviously only really applies to the hippy left and the nutjob right.
I understand not getting flu vaccines but these nutjobs need to get a clue. Youre endangering the population by not getting the vaccine (they are only effective when a certain proportion of the pop has been vaccinated). Yeah, you should have the right to not get vaccinated at your discretion, just like you should have the right to drive at your discretion - on your own private land. Dont bring your biological weapon of a child near other people if you want to deny empirical evidence.
Has anyone else noticed a notable decline in the quality of posts on ZH over the last 6 mos or so? Who even owns Zerohedge these days? We get antivax posts, political drinking games, comics, propaganda supporting Tsipras- a communist who wants to roll back Greek "austerity", and posts about how bad cheap oil is for the US (because the hit to oil jobs; completely disregarding larger industries including transportation which flows its costs into the rest of everything). The most technical posts are charts with big red lines overlayed and a title with the term "DEATH CROSS."
Its as if someone is making a joke out of what this site once was.
The flu vaccine is interesting. I had a buddy who almost died getting one a few years back. But it does save thousands of lives (mainly the sick ,old, and young) a year. It's still a significant net positive. You can always find anecdotal evidence to the contrary. And my buddy is weak as shit, so he's vulnerable to everything lol.
As far as your macro take on ZH...
I was here, I believe, the week the .blogspot launched. It's funny,back then, it was completely technical. It's kind of mirrored the tea party as a whole. It started out as the credible Santelli sort and has denigrated to low iq, morons refusing to vaccinate their kids. I don't mind the divergence of opinion, but some of the topics have gotten ridiculous.
Somewhere in the halls of government there are folks who think that the way you live your life is silly and dangerous. They're more than happy to hear that you recognize their right to kick in your face.
Sophistry. Well it's actually, not even really that.
There's a difference between the government intervening in areas where my action or inaction affects others and areas where my stupidly only has an impact on myself.
There is a slight difference between the two.
Government always claims that those whom it imprisons or kills were dealt with for the public good. I'm surprised you haven't noticed.
Definitely a decline in quality posts... Gotta bring in that advertising revenue!
"Its as if someone is making a joke out of what this site once was."
No...It's more akin to making a joke out of what government has become.
Ah, the old, "the science is settled!" argument.
That one is dead on arrival.
Fuck you, your kids and your sense of entitlement. I'm sure you and your kids are fine people. But you don't have a right to force me to be medicated out of your own selfishness.
Fuck off moron. Nothing was "settled decades ago." A popiulation insufficiently distustful of their government let them establish a vaccination program without proper data to support it. If my kids aren't vaccinated it is no threat to you - unless your vaccination doesn't work. I am convinced that if the government mandated that you not be an idiot you would violently resist.
It is sheep programming and has nothing to do with shots...other than if you get this shot and your neighbor doesn't, you get to PC hate them. The social programming roots of this run much deeper than eggs.
Even the most banal of fashion, celeb, and 'mommy' blogs have taken to 24/7 shaming and teeth-gnashing. It's like the entire country has enlisted itself to champion the poisoning of an entire generation, and also like you said; because they've been conditioned to.
'Autism is just a different way of being', is the message.
Anyone not refusing this shit deserves all of the fucking immune overreactions and consequent disorders/damage that comes their way.
Socrates: "I know nothing." Our CDC, our media and most doctors:"We know everything about vaccines." Lord Acton: "The greatest heresy is that the office sanctifies the holder thereof." Doctors are no more sacrosanct than high priests. We want diversity, then have diversity of choice to vaccinate.
How did this even become a national issue in the last few months?
This sounds a lot like the phoney-baloney inveted "war on women". I.e. 100% political.
I L L E G A L S !
I think you're exactly right. I was posting similar, above, as you were replying.
It became an issue because there is damning evidence against both the safety and effectiveness of vaccines that is finally seeing the light of day, and the statists and the Pharma industry is terrified.
A measles outbreak is a terrific opportunity to demonize the anti-vaccine crowd. Measles is actually one of the very few diseases where the risk of vaccination is actually outweighed by the benefits of vaccination-- which makes it a perfect propaganda vehicle to bulldoze the anti-vaccine crowd.
That's why this is happening now.
Jenny McCarthy is that you???
Completely disagree wth your characterization of the risk/rewards associated with the measles vaccine.
How did this even become a national issue in the last few months?
The 23% efficacy of this year's flu vaccine, after the big push for everyone to get it; the hysteria over Ebola, with a reproduction number (RO) of 1 to 2 vs 12 to 18 for measles.
For most kids it isn't a big deal but some do get very sick. Adults who get measles are more likely to be sicker, as with most of the 'childhood diseases'. But I don't even watch television and I know they've been pushing the narrative to get all kids vaccinated.
And no one has seen so many cases here in a long time as in recently so they're freaked by it, realizing the potential for many more. It's the cognitive dissonance of "How can this be happening here" for some.
It is curious about the issue though. There are anti-vaxxers in both Democrats and Republicans.
One thing is for sure. Vaccines can certainly be thrown in the divide and conquer category.
I'm no expert of course, and I'm not sure there any experts that I'd personally trust regarding mandatory injections these days. It's noteworthy that I believe to this day, many dental fillings still contain mercury. That's just fine and dandy to stick it permanently in a patient's mouth...but dispose of a mercury thermostat in a landfill...woo...that'll get you in big trouble. Health experts are real quiet on that for some inexplicable reason.
The Disneyland measles epidemic last month brought this issue into the headlines. Then suddenly politicians and pundits jumped in, shooting off their mouths in public about conspiracies, the New World Order, etc. This SHOULD NOT be a liberal vs conservative issue. Indeed, both liberals and conservatives have for years been part of the anti-VAX "movement," if it can be called that. But since a few well-known liberals and conservatives have very publicly weighed in with their opinions, their fans have ralled to the cause, contributing yet more fuel to the fire that is America's cultural civil war.
Anti-vaxxers should be rounded up and thrown into a meat grinder. Fuck them.
Spoken like a true fuckwad.
Please excuse his bloodthirsty approach -- he's just really committed to the sanctity of human life.
At the very least vaccinate you kid for things like polio. Measles or the chicken pox are usually no big thing but polio sucks
I know i was vaccinated against tb and polio in high school. Alll the others i caught from conveniently arranged play dates when other kids had it. Except mumps, had that shot a few years ago.
Imagine that. Parents should evaluate the risk/reward of vaccination against any particular disease instead of being forcedeither into complete submission to the vaccination regime or being dismissed as a wild-eyed "anti-vaxxer."
So what have we got here?
The government is now telling you not only what to do with your own body (ObamaCare) but is also ordering you to vaccinate your children.
There is a line that cannot be crossed and that statement is NOT a recommendation or denunciation of vaccinations and its benefits "to the whole" nor is it a condemnation of either who choose either course for themselves.
It is a statement that the fucking state will never decide what is MY familys best interest.
SOME PEOPLE need to come to grips with that.
It is not the state, it is the people you live around you fucking clown.
The state always knows what's best. Shutup and take your medicine, sheep.
Fine, be a complete moron.
You should know that if your sick kid comes near mine, based on your selfish logic, I have a right to kill your kid before he can hurt mine.
You're making that statement based on the belief that the money changers have the best interest of your child at heart. They do not and deep down I think you understand that. Keep working through it. You'll get there.
You're hysterical. You write as if getting the measles was a death sentence or something. Its uncomfortable and unpleasant for the kids and horribly inconvenient for the parents, but its almost never life-threatening, and I grew up at a time where everybody got the measles. I never knew or heard of a kid who was permanently damaged by the experience. I know one who had a life-threatening reaction to the vaccination though.
You have the right to kill his kid? Dude, calm the fuck down.
He should be careful, my kids aren't sheep. I have 100% confidence if he locked himself in a room with any one of them mine would be the ones to come out.
They can all fight & shoot extremely well ;-)
You seem to think I would let my "sick kid" leave home with a disease and an order from the state should mean something to me.
You also seem to think Big Pharma (and their lobbying industry) has my childrens best interests at heart, instead of their own bottom line.
You'll be heartened to know they have all their vaccinations because thats what we decided a long time ago to do...after doing the research OURSELVES.
However, I OUTRIGHT ORDERED THEM to fight off and run away from school if any nurse came toward them with a "swine flu shot" up to and including stabbing them in the eyeball with a pencil, to do whatever it takes to get out and then we would deal with the school & government. I verbally and in writing told the school no, they are not doctors or scientists, they are propagandists. You should be very careful what YOU ORDER the state to do on your behalf as the blood will be on your hands not mine.
What are the incidences of Swine Flu these days by the way?
So don't presume you know anything about me or my "logical selfishness" or my childrens health, fuckstick.
I was one of those poor unlucky people who came down with the 2009H1N1 swine flu. Absolutely fucking most awful 2 days of my life. Fever over 103 and joints screaming on fire. All I could do was writhe in bed and pray it would end. Of course I gave it to Mr Miffed and had to listen to his all night screams of the joys being married to a microbiologist. We managed to survive. At least after that happy experience we will have immunity to that virus and similar strains for many years. Exposure to many wild type viruses gives you the best immunity as long as the population is healthy. But it certainly doesn't bode well for an income stream to big Pharma.
Miffed;-)
So, you fucking retarded elephant cock sucking moron, answer me this. For how many days after your precious little turd get its MMR vaccine is it contagious to anyone else who hasn't either had the disease or gotten vaccinated? I'm quite sure you don't know and probably lack the ability to google the answer. Of course that won't stop you from puking out your fear. Please identify yourself so your kids can be shot on approach.
If it comes right down to it, we all have choices, even if it affects others. If I so choose, I can drink and drive. Free choice --regardless of the impact on the rest of society.
But, just like drinking and driving, if you don't get vaccinated, you open yourself up to being sued for damages by those impacted by your "free choice". I can also see a time where if you're not vaccinated --for your own safety and the safety of others-- you will not be allowed into the hospital.
1) Prove the vaccine is 100% effective.
2) Prove the entire vaccine regimen proscribed by state is not contributing to the disorders.
Neither you, nor anyone else can prove either. (The ludicrious and self destructive litigiousness of US society is a different issue though.)
The results of ANY double blind study of a single vaccine is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT unless 1) the study shows the vaccine is ineffective or dangerous and should be pulled from the market, or 2) the ENTIRE proscribed vaccine regimen consists of only ONE vaccine.
The problem isn't a failure (or proof) of "the Science" it is a fundamental limitation of the Scientific Method and continual mischaracterization of the applicability of the results of a laboratory experiment to real world conditions.
It's like we're giving graduate and post graduate degrees to FUCKING RETARDS who should have received high school diplomas or post natal abortions.
CC is from Canada where there is no market for - and therefore choice in - healthcare, only a government monopoly. What he is saying is that the majority will cut off the only avenue to healthcare to those who don't comply with its majoritarian edicts. Nice, eh? That's beaver fascism for you...
Canadian Capitalist = contradiction of terms
Apparently, anyone getting sick today should sue the people who were vaccinated since they become contagious for a few days after getting the shot.
Vaccination works and is safe. Whether these vaccines work and are safe is a different thing.
Do i believe they wouldn't try to shave 1/1000th of a penny of the cost of each dose by cutting corners and hoping no one finds out? No.
We aren't even sure that vaccination "works." Do vaccines, properly prepared, and free of contaminants, confer immunity to a particular disease? Generally, yes. In the process of doing so, do they degrade and impair the immune system against other disease--including cancer? There is definitely evidence that that is the case.
Vaccines are AT BEST a trade off. At worst, they can have fatal side effects, in either the short or long term.
Complete bullshit. Nothing you said is in the least bit intelligible.
*Vaccines work. Period. (see disease rates)
*"degrade and impair the immune system against the immune system"?Bullshit
*"Vaccines are AT BEST a trade off" Bullshit, vaccines have saved MILLIONS of lives (polio, smallpox, etc)
Why would anyone take what you say seriously?
They would take me seriously because I am well-informed and thoughtful.
You on the other hand are misinformed and shrill.
I state facts or clearly stated opinions. I don't merge the two.
I'll give you shrill. That's fair. But, I mean, c'mon, with the current ZH crowd, can you blame me?
"Since 2005, there have been no deaths in the U.S. from measles, but there have been 86 deaths from MMR vaccine"
"working"
You have to be extremely careful when quoting official government stats on vaccine deaths
My ex worked as an ER nurse at a large hospital in Montreal, about once a month a young teen girl would die in convulsions at the hospital immediately after receiving the Gardasil vaccine
She knew of every case because the staff spoke amongst each other after every death (and if she happened to be there while it happened there would be some call over the speaker system to rush help to try and save the girl)
None of these deaths were recorded as being caused by the vaccine
The staff knew, but did nothing
Silver Bite Me you are a fine koolaid drinker. Please post the rates of measles from 1943 (two decades before the vaccine was licensed) through today. Then post the rates of vaccination during the same years. The major decline in measles happened well before the vaccine was widely used and years before it was licensed. But I bet you never bothered to investigate the facts yourself. Moreover, it is irresponsible to talk defend "vaccination" generally. The risk/reward is entirely dependent upon the disease. Polio and smallpox are dealy. Measles and mumps are not.
Even your bullshit, made up arguement is wrong....fuck could you be any dumber?
Vaccines dont work by killing the virus, they dont stop someone getting the virus....they work by teaching the immune system to recognise the virus. Therefore strengthing the immune system, and allowing it (the immune system) to kill the virus quickly before it multiplies enough times to be an issue for the host and spread to other organisms.
How and backed by what science does a vaccine impair or degrade the immune system? Let me guess, because without vaccines we would get these diseases and the body would fight them and the immune system would get stronger????? Thats WHAT a vaccine is you fucking dipshit.
"At worst, they can have fatal side effects" interesting you're so worried about mortality. There is something else that has fatal side-effects. I'll give you a hint it starts with P and ends with olio, mumps, tetanus, diptheria.
If you don't want vaccines injected in your body, then please accept a free high speed injection of inner cranium lead!
"If you don't want vaccines injected in your body, then please accept a free high speed injection of inner cranium lead!"
You are a fine example of everything that is evil in this world.
Collectivism.
I think the data from 1796 till now proves vaccination works.
Big pharma cutting corners and making vaccines that put profit margin above quality is the problem that give vaccination a bad name.
Anyone remember a few years back the BAXTER Vaccine/Bioweapon disaster? Of course not-it happened in the EU and the US MSM reported little of it. It appears BAXTER deliberately tainted crateloads of H5N1 vaccine sent to 18 countries worldwide with a fully live virus-later reports had the death rate in the Ukraine into the hundreds if not thousands. There were too many hoops, checks and controls in place for it to have been an "accident" from a Biolevel 3 lab;
OF COURSE all recipients were assured the vaccine was safe. Baxter has also been implicated in several Vaccine "accidents" in the past which caused the death of many people worldwide
http://www.unfictional.com/joseph-moshe-mossad-bioweapon-swine-flu-vacci...
http://www.rense.com/general88/bax.htm
there is much more reading about this fatal "Mistake" Thank God for the Czech laboratory who, on a whim, decided to test the vaccine-killing all test animals recieving it in the facility
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djdBDfGjTpQ
Dechamp vs. Pasteur, pleomorphic theory.
http://www.naturalnews.com/030384_Louis_Pasteur_disease.html
What we all believe is history has been massively distorted. Cui bono, Cui bono indeed.
Full spectrum dominance, death and debt for all on slave planet Earth.
As someone who isn't totally fucking retarded, I don't think unvaccinated children should be allowed to attend public school. No, you don't have a right to expose all the other children to hepatitis and other bullshit you think is trendy.
Well actually, you just proved you're "totally fucking retarded". You can have your public schools that teach to the lowest common denominator, in a system that is primarily incentivized to condition children to tolerate boredom rather than develop innovation and learning. It obviously worked perfectly on you. You're not going to find many public school kids in MIT and Stanford, but there's plenty of homeschooled kids, and many unvaccinated (clutch your pearls!).
The fields of science, and medicine are like shining a flashlight through a cluttered factory. The areas you shine the light on are illuminated, but what about the areas you didn't shine the light on? Does that help you understand how the factory works? It's an incomplete picture. The physician who authored this piece clearly has his head screwed on straight and understands science and it's limitations. You sir, do not.
You act like ivy leaguers arent indoctrinated. Go look at the educational background of our groupthink economists, politicians, and bankers. These are the guys that wrote the laws and drove us into the mess we are in today. There are plenty of drones in public schools but in my experience, the folks that get the GPAs to get into those schools were the worst of them. Being smart doesnt cut it in highschool, you need to put in serious time reading their approved curriculum to get those straight A's.
"I don't think unvaccinated children should be allowed to attend public school."
I don't think ANY children should be allowed to attend public school!
How about THAT?
They should attend private-coal mine as during Victorian days.
hey fucktard-if the vaccinated kids are 'protected' by the vaccine then what exactly is the problem?How can they get anything from the unvaccinated kids if the vaccine works? THINK ABOUT IT. DUH.
Thats exactly what I think when these retards start crying about the sky falling. If their kid is vaccinated, what do they care if an unvaccinated kid is running around?
Because you fucking complete moron - it's based on herd immunity. You're clearly too fucking dumb to understand, i'll try spell it out in simple short words.
Person A (vaccinated) gets polio virus, due to vaccine, the body recognised the virus and kills it. Virus doesn't spread.
Person B (Un-vaccinated fucktard) gets polio virus and unfortunately doesn't die - passes on the virus as their body took longer to recognise and fight the infection. Polio virus now spreads to more people.
Polio virus successfully spreads due to lack of herd immunity (too many fucktards), viruses constantly mutate (most of which are harmless or determental to virus). However this is a lottery and the more times the virus gets to play mutation lotto the sooner it wins.
Polio virus now has a new strain, unrecognised by previous vaccine.
Person A now gets new strain of Polio virus and dies, so does Person B's little baby girl, and their grandparents. Welcome back to the 1800's you dick.
To answer your question why do we cry about the sky falling stuff. It's because we understand the science and aren't too selfish to care about my neighbours kids, or my childrens friends, younger niece's etc. Your unvaccinated kid is a perfect temp controlled measles spreading and mutation petri dish you dumb fucking moron.
Please dont breed
A) you wont vaccinate your kids
B) Your stupid genes are not beneficial or needed and I don't want my kids to have to live in a world with your stupid offspring...get it?
+100 You win the internet for today.
You stupid idiot. Vaccines never work a 100% (but the more people vaccinated the better chances individually). And there are people who just can't get vaccinated (immune suppressed). THINK ABOUT IT. DUH...
"As someone who is totally fucking retarded" - corrected it. What the fuck are you afraid of if your kids are vaccinated - unless it doesn't really work?
fuck you stargazers, i don't want your stinking polio, TB, Measles, etc, get the fuck vaccinated on your own, and fuck big brother, he shouldn't be forcing us to do anything.
In Texas, we are.blessed.with "No Refusal" DWI weekend sweeps, typically on holiday weekends.
The cops need no warrant, and will forcibly take your blood, against your will, to be used against you in a court of.law.
Too bad your blood can't plead.the fifth....
People should sue for being stabbed by the state.
If some random scrub runs upto you in the street ties you down and stabs you with a needle its a criminal offense... but when a medically untrained police officer does it . . .
Sovereign immunity.
And let me.correct.myself: They do have to get a warrant, but they get it instantly from a duty judge on standby for the sole purpose.of.issuing these search warrants.
it can plead the 40 cal
Come on. You don't trust the gobment?! When have they EVER did any experiments on unwitting American citizens? They would NEVER. Twits. Anyone who thinks we shouldn't have a right to choose what enters our bodies is sick in the head. Period.
In America, government passes laws that almost no one wants in order to give the govt excuses to extract a given amount of wealth from the population.
And your children constitute something the government considers as wealth, as to the govt your child is worth something on the open market if they can steal it from you and sell it/the rights to it/use it for god knows what.
Don't vaccinate your kid??? Great the govt can snatch the little fucker, put him on a lithium drip and pimp him out to pharmaceutical companies to experiment on. . . .
Let me break it down.
Govt takes money from your check : ->path of money
Your pocket -> Government -> government kidnaps a kid -> government puts kid on prescriptions -> government uses money it stole from you to buy drugs -> drugs go into the kid they stole from you -> money for drugs goes from you ->govt->bigpharma-> kick backs back to politicians.
Government uses taxes, drugs, laws to steal children and drugging kids in clinics as a way to launder money they stole from you back into the pockets of govt officials.
Thats how the train works more or less....
there are more examples, this same model is used with all industries... medicine... real-estate . . . securities . . . other investment assets . . . good old fashioned money laundering of all sorts.
Dont think govt would do that???
Plenty of decalsified govt experiments where they tested chemicals on the population..... they probably spending billions right now spraying us with god knows what . . . and you better bet a good portion of those billions are flowing right back to the people who are getting paid to pass these ridiculous laws/black projects.
To all those who are saying that it's illegal aliens (presumably from Mexico) that are causing the Disneyland measles epidemic, I'm sorry to inform you that they have the MMR vaccine in Mexico, it's widely used, and they are not suffering a measles epidemic there. The epidemic that originated among kids visiting Disneyland has affected about 100 kids so far, almost all of whom weren't vaccinated. Among the tiny minority who were vaccinated, it seems they only received the first shot but not the second shot of the MMR vaccine (which has to be administered at least 4 weeks after the first shot).
The only other measles epidemic that I'm aware of outside of the USA has been in Pakistan, where Islamic militants starting shooting healthcare workers because it was decided that vaccines are "unIslamic."
Nearly everything is false in this comment.
Unless this is opposite day. Is it?
The "information" in this article about how chickenpox vaccine causes the shingles is total bullshit. You don't get the shingles unless you had chickenpox first. If you had chickenpox as a child, decades later you may get the shingles. If you get chickenpox as an adult, once you recover from that you can still get the shingles.
This article says the exact opposite, that failure to get chickenpox as a child is what causes the shingles later in life.
If the author got it so wrong about chickenpox/shingles, I have to wonder how much of his other "facts" are accurate. I have a feeling he's pulling all his "facts" from Facebook, not from medical literature.
You are correct sir!
I must have overlooked what your saying. The only reference I come up with is
"The shingles uptick is directly attributable to the lack of re-exposure of older people to the wild chickpox virus."
He states "Re-exposure"
Where did he say the vaccine caused Shingles?
The Jenny McCarthy crowd isn't known for their microbiology accumen.
He does not say that at all.
What he said was that shingles episodes have seen an increase in occurrence because adults are no longer exposed to children with chickenpox (or much more less so).
Getting an immune boost from being around kids with chickenpox is a known thing. It is for that reason Europe does not mass-vaccinate against chickenpox. The kids in the USA have been vaccinated so the boost is no longer there, generating that increase in shingles occurrences.
There's a trade-off, which is his point through most of the article. Fewer childhood diseases but an increase in childhood disorders, for example.
So much more profitable to have many many chronically ill and on expensive daily medication rather than to allow children and their parents to suffer through a short and harmless illness and inconvenience which caused expense to employers in lost productivity while parents were home tending sick children.
Learn to read.
What the author says is that the natural immunity to chickenpox infection wanes over time, and needs to be boosted by periodic exposure to...kids with chickenpox. If it doesn't receive these boosts, you risk developing shingles later in life. That's why people who had chicken pox as kids are now developing shingles when they get older.
You have your facts inverted. The argument is that the chickenpox vaccine results in a lesser immunity than does a case of childhood chickenpox. This reduced immunity is responsible for the increasing iincidence of shingles. You may disagree but at least understyand what is being said bnefore shooting your damned ignorant mouth off. Correlation isn't causation but there is a pretty good correlation between the widespread use of the chickenpox vaccine and the increase in shingles. But don't worry - now they have a vaccine for shingles and the CDC recommends everyone in their 50's or 60's get a dose of it. Barely mentioned is that the effectiveness of the vaccine is "said to be" - they don't actually give the actual rate - 51% Why the hell would any thinking person take a vaccine - with potentially seriious side effects - that is 50-50 on whether it actually works? Whyhe hell would the CDC promote it? The only real answer is because they are in the pocket of pharma. If they are now why in the hell would you think they weren't back in the day when it was so much easier to bullshit people?
Stick that flu shot up your ass.
Never had it, never will.
the goberment must round up the unvaccinated and put them in quaranteen camps. their parents should have to forfeit their property for endangering the collective. a new agency should be formed (VSA, vaccine security agency) after convening a task force oexperts from industry and hospitals. history teaches that segregating the weak and infirm and disobedient is the most efficient means of maintaining social order.
Whats the big deal. I had measles three times when I was a kid, including that 'German' measles and I came out OK, no different than a flu.
Try having polio. Or smallpox. Or tetanus. Or HPV...
What do those things have to do with justifying an MMR or chickenpox vaccine?
The guy's defending the anti vaccination ideology by saying he had those diseases for which vaccines are common and nothing happened to him. I just told him to go get some of the other more deadly ones and then we'll talk.
Improved Vaccines - e.g., removing Mercury(and other controversial products) from all formulations; and removing/modifying the Pharma/Biotech Firms' Exemption/Immunity from Lawsuits/Prosecution should be a start.
That "start" would be the end of vaccines
And then people laugh at Africa or parts of South East Asia where they still have "traditional medicine", i.e. mummified baby dicks, pangolin scales, leaches. Shit's coming to America now 'tseems. I guess it's only a matter of time until ads for baby dicks or pangolin scales show up on WND or prisonplanet... or ZH for that matter.
If making vacines "better" included reponsibility and liability to the manufacturer and/or distributor, there would be no vaccines. Too many side effects and death to support continued use. You do know what VAERS is, I'm sure.
Sources please or you're just talking BS. I know VAERS and I know that a huge percent of "reports" amount to nothing. Check for example the case of the HPV vaccine. What was it? Over 300 reports and only 30 or something required special attention?
Sources for what? When people die and/or suffer ill effects you think there would not be litigation if that was able to be pressed...? Why again are vaccine manufactureres in the US expempt from any responsibility of harm?
First - do no harm.
With a long enough tow line even ZeroHedge can jump that shark.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on Zero Hedge.
As a child I had the following normal childhood diseases: mumps, measles, chickenpox. Today as an adult I am in good health.
If immunization works as advertised, then why the fuss over unvaccinated kids? Those who are vaccinated will supposedly be protected. What no one can deny is the insane NUMBER of vaccinations that are forced onto newborns these days and the attendent rise in incidence of autism. Metabolic disorder/diabetes. Chilhood cancers.
uncorrelated thinking equals stupidity which can't be fixed. Congratulations, you're ignorant and stupid. deal with the truth.
Blindly choosing to ignore correlation, and not see it as a cause for further investigation, is even more ignorant ans stupid. Perhaps you suffered encephalitis as a child from too much mercury in your vaccines? That MIGHT explain your lack of reasoning ability. It might also be poor genes. I think, however, you are willfully ignorant because you just don't want to believe that you can't trust big brother.
Both you and the article argue, "why the fuss over unvaccinated kids?" and "If I choose/don't choose to be protected, why care about others choices?" The flaw in this argument, especially with measles, is the value of herd immunity. If enough people in a population group are vaccinated, it becomes impossible for the virus to circulate in a sustained way. Because measles is so contageous, the herd immunity threshold is very high. This protects people that can't be vaccinated for whatever reason (too young, cancer patients, organ transplant recipients, etc). So by giving into Jenny McCarthy syndrome and not getting vaccinated, you are choosing to murder that little 6-year old girl that had a liver transplant or the little 3 month old boy. Nice going.
The "vaccines kill more kids than the disease" is a failure of logic as well. The vaccines are so effective that complications are the major cause of death. The alternative would be to not vaccinate, which would allow the virus to circulate causing thousands of deaths. That is, zero deaths is a false choice. Your choices are dozens or thousands. Choose wisely.
You should research Herd Immunity and the original paper from which that term originates. You bastardize it's true meaning.
My point is entirely salient in the context of a broad foundation of microbiology research. Nice try though. Standard response in the Jenny McCarthy playbook. Press a flawed argument in spite of overwhelming data and logic, then hope your audience is to stupid to notice. There is no "original" paper on the topic, the one I presume you site wasn't the first research on the topic, nor is it especially relevant to current research on the topic.
Great debate tactics - if you have no ammo, use ad hom, allude to your superior data and logic (but provide none), then state that there is no such argument as mine (again, with no backing), and even if there was such an argument it is flawed simply because it is not current.
Nice try though.
And it is "too stupid" not "to stupid."
There is a real disconnect between the "well-informed and scientific" stance you are maintaining, and your compositional skills.
You do have my sincere apologies if English is not your native language.
Choose wisely.
That is the crux of the argument...Choice versus compulsion.
If vaccination is so damned beneficial then SELL the idea.
You do not have to force people to drink water. They know that it is beneficial.
You do not have to force people to EAT FOOD. Most will given the choice.
You do not have to force most people to obtain employment. Most will if it is available. Some may not but most will as they know that it is beneficial. They are SOLD on the idea that they may gain by their efforts.
If vaccination is so damned beneficial then the idea needs be sold that it is. When it is accepted that it is beneficial then most will choose vaccination.
The outright ARROGANCE that these "progressives" have, that they are all knowing and that others must be forced rather than persuaded is what causes the backlash and resentment.
Because of their demands and dictates I will resist it as I know that they know that they cannot persuade because something is amiss.
If it was not amiss then many more would be PERSUADED and choose it by their own free will.
But when they feel the need to initiate force then the UNDERSTOOD UNDERLYING MESSAGE is that something is wrong with what they are attempting to force down your throat.
That is what they do not understand. Education is much more beneficial than being subject to the dictates of another.
So fuck you Silver Bullet. Fuck you Statetheist. I can wipe my ass on every single piece of currency I have before I spend it as a response to BOTH of YOU. Everybody else here can too.
Has you kid ever had a Stinkin Lincoln? How do you like my response?
Because I travel I have no choice with certain vaccines. My suspicion of their value is now high. One family member has had two toddlers experience severe reactions requiring hosipitalisation after getting recommended vaccines (most people ignore the fact multiple vaccines are being given to babies not even weaned). Another friends healthy baby died 3 days after vaccination. Two older ladies in my family started getting strange memory lapses after flu shots, quiet unlike other forms of old age/senility we had previously had in the family. Another family member is a nurse and had to quit her job because she refused the flu shot despite never being sick and presenting valid information.
While in Cambodia about 4 years ago I passed a village that had a massive polio outbreak 10 days after a vaccination program. They were forbidden from talking to the media. In South America many small protests arise over the number of Gardisall reactions in the previously teenage girls...they're ignored.
Since we're unable to have a free and frank public discussion about vaccines and the risks and the number of serious reactions some of us are witnessing. It is logical to conclude that there is an agenda.
Fuck you, the 6-year old girl and the little 3 month old boy. Neither you nor them trump my right to refuse to be forcibly medicated. Neither your life nor their is any more or any less valuable than mine. We're dealt our cards and life ain't fair. Your desire to save yourself or someone else, while perfectly logical and understandable, doesn't trump my freedom of choice. Anyone who advocates mandatory vaccinations is no better than a common thug using force to elevate their own personal desires above others'. Is it sad that the "little 6-year old girl that had a liver transplant or the little 3 month old boy" might die? Sure. But their misfortune doesn't trump my freedom to refuse to inject soemthing into my body.
That being said, I have no beef with any employer or the like who instills vaccination requirements as a condition of work or participation. You choose to not meet their requirements, that's your perogative, but you deal with the consequences and limitations.
Despite the fact I dis-agree with forced vaccinations, anyone who choses not to is a fucking inconsiderate, selfish, un-educated fucking moron. You are absolutely correct that the govt, employers, schools should be able to refuse entry based on vaccinations.
I can't believe anyone can still argue the value of vaccinations, the fact this will get downvoted like most pro-vaccinations comments shows the dangers of the internet. Also how much the readership of this forum has declined into common morons and conspiracy nut jobs.
As for you arguement about your "rights" to refuse to inject something into your body desolves your responsiblity to the 3 month old boy I would strongly dis-agree. If you contract and pass on a preventable disease due to your decision to refuse vaccinations and that person dies, you should be on manslaughter charges. Yep said it!!!!!! Manslaughter....here is why. If your beliefs are that strong, go live in a jungle somewhere, you still expect all the benefits of a society and living in a community but feel your rights come above that community. Your a selfish cunt, fuck you and every single anti-vaccer. Worst still you all seem hell bend on stopping others from vaccinating.
Also what freedom of choice are you talking about? are you allowed to drink drive without repercussions....NO because innocent people die from your stupid decision. This is the benefit of living a society, there are certain personal freedoms sacrificed for the benfit of greater community. So fuck off and go live in the jungle.....please do not breed also
The reason none of you are scared of Polio, mumps and think that some Vitamin A, and good hygiene practices will save you is you haven't been exposed to the horror of these diseases.......because vaccinations all but wiped them out.
For anyone that stupid enough to think it causes autism would do to realise it's now been proven to develop in-utero, it's a genetic condition. Also I'd take an autistic child over a dead one any day of the week.
Also herd immunity is not just about protecting a person that couldn't be vaccinated, it also dramatically reduces the number of cases of a disease. Therefore reducing the opportunity for even more devasting mutations from occuring. Diseases like mumps, polio are bad enough on there own, and you morons want to give them opportunity of evolutionary lotto by increasing their numbers in the hundreds of millions.
I think I made it clear that I believe people should be free to choose AND be fully prepared to accept the repercussions. That goes for your drinking and driving example and everything else.
You're entitled to your opinion that people who don't get vaccinated and cause harm to another should be charged with manslaughter. I disagree, but then again I think we should string up bankers, politicians, and bad drivers in the town square, so I can appreciate your advocacy of punitive retribution even if I personally wouldn't extend it to vaccines.
Conversely, it could be argued that it is the 6-year-old child's and 3-month-old infant's caretarker's reponsibility to limit their exposure to the outside world, and so sorry, but that 6-year-old child's days are numbered anyway. There are many other dangers lurking out in the wild over and above the wicked unimmunized.
It takes some serious quantum physics to pack that much ignorance into two paragraphs. Herd immunity is bullshit. There is no such thing. There is a reduced liklihood of exposure for the non-immunized when there is a large percentage of immunized in the herd but no immunity. Contagiousness is not relevant here. Mortality is. Measles is not a lethal disease. Substituting a small probability of serious adverse effects from a vaccine for a small probability of serious afverse effects from a case of the disease is not rational in light of the extra expense and REDUCE immunity that comes from vacination. Finally, if you are immune-compromised you are stupid to go out and about as if you aren't simply because everyone has been vaccinated. Vaccines are not 100% effective and, while that is no big deal to a healthy person, it may be fatal to the immune-compromised. That is an irrational emotional argument thrown out by stupid people. Try to identify on your own which of your points that I didn't address are also bullshit. I'll give you a hint - all of them.
Are you really that ignorant or are you just predisposed to hyperbole?
For the decade prior to the introduction of the measles vaccine, the total deaths in the US were 600 or less and slowly declining, with the vast majority of decline since records began to be kept having already taken place.
http://truth11.com/2012/11/08/real-history-vaccines-not-responsible-for-...
So stating that a choice not to vaccinate is going to result in the deaths of thousands is obviously not correct -- you're either ignorant or deliberately dishonest. There's no third option.
Now that you've seen the graph, can you really stand on the soapbox and scream about the vaccines being "so effective"? The mortality rate had already declined from 13 down to 0.3 per 100,000 by the time of vaccine introduction. Then over the next 5 years, the mortality rate declined to effectively zero. Did vaccines have an impact? I would say so. Were they the only or even the dominant factor? I think that is a huge stretch.
So before you jump up on your high horse and hurl accusations of murder at anyone that makes a personal decision about vaccination based on factual information, perhaps you should take the time to become informed yourself. Afterall, dialogue is so much more productive than shouting matches filled with vitriol.
Funny. This autism advocacy group is _urging_ parents _to_ vaccinate their kids:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/autism-speaks-urges-parents-vaccinate-children/story?id=28751485
Vaccinations causing autism is a complete myth.
Yet you get upvoted 5 times... The IQ on ZH has declined considerably over the years.
Must be bored people coming over from facebook.
Sure, and you know this to be an absolute certainty because...
Please tell me you are basing your flimsy opinion on more than just the one tired story about Dr. Wakefield from the late 90's. If you knew ANYTHING about this topic, beyond the propaganda you've been fed, you would understand that at best, it is an issue that has yet to be settled.
"We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms."
So what is your point? That all anti-vaccine folks wil cut off their childrens' little arms?
I LOVE Libral though! That guy is nutz!!!
My older brother nearly died from an allergic reaction to the whooping cough vaccine. They left that one out for me but I was vaccinated for everything else. This was back in the 70's and it was never a big deal until the last 5 years or so. I've had two incidents of customers coming to me and telling me up front they had whooping cough, and one coworker coming into work with it as well. I sent to customers to someone else and demanded to leave work rather than be exposed to a coworker when I knew I had no chance of immunity. I was treated like the freak, like I was from one of "those" anti-vaccer families. I'm far too old for that. I have this crazy idea that maybe you should stay the fuck away from other people if you've been diagnosed with whooping cough, especially if someone tells you they couldn't be vaccinated.
The coworker who came to work with whooping cough? That was in a restaurant. She dutifully showed up to wait tables with it.
So just get the damn thing and be done with it.
So just put a bullet in your head and be done with it.
This is called an ad hominem attack and in debate announces that you have nothing.
I am a BIG critic of big PHARMA, but there are limits. This guy is a QUACK. People who buy into quackery put others at risk. Here is a comment from a Scientific American article on measles:
"The last major measles outbreak in the US was from 1989-1991. There were over 55,000 cases of measles.
250 died.
90% of those who died were unvaccinated.
100% of the 37 babies under 1 year old who died were not vaccinated (too young).
91% of 65 1-4 year olds who died were not vaccinated.
The mortality rate was 1 in 220 measles cases.
About 80% of the deaths were due to pneumonia, and the majority of the rest from encephalitis (brain inflammation).
11,000 were sent to the hospital, 3,500 developed pneumonia.
This was in 1989-1991 - you cannot blame sanitation, nutrition, or poor medical conditions, medications, or technology."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/spreading-measles-outbreak-als...
Most people don't realize how contageous some of these diseases are. R-naught is a measure of how easily a disease spreads. Ebola is about 1.5, the flu is 2 - 3 depending on the strain, and polio is around 6. By comparison, measles has an r naught of 18!
For an actual mortality rate of 0.45% to put this in perspective. But apparently none of those deaths were actually due to measles itself. Pneumonia and encephalitis are sequelae.
Hey spooz, if you are going to link to an article at least link to the one that you are referring to. Your link is a recent opinion piece regarding the current controversy but doesn't have the "facts" you allege which are largely incorrect. Try this one: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/551272_5 You might notice that the deaths were half the rate you claimed and that many of the victims had, in fact, been vaccinated contrary to your assertion.
Well, they have already set the precedent of forced medication with fluoridated water.
I had to drill a well to keep from drinking the poison.
The tyranny of the majority is the really bad thing with democracy.
The tyranny of a uninformed and plain stupid majority is even worse.
Stupid usually wins...