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Greece Gives Europe A Counter-Ultimatum: Accept Or Reject Our Offer
UPDATE: *GREEK GOVT WON'T ACCEPT ULTIMATUMS, WON'T GIVE ANY: OFFICIAL
After days of repeated ultimata from The Eurogroup, as Germany (bad cop) and the rest (good cop) make optimistic sounds, this morning's rejection of Greece's latest plan (following Greek comparisons of Germany to Nazi surrender demands) has prompted something new:
- *EU HAS 2 CHOICES, APPROVE OR REJECT GREEK REQUEST: OFFICIAL
- *EUROGROUP MEETING TO SHOW WHO WANTS A SOLUTION: GREEK OFFICIAL
Markets are stumbling on this news as Germany and the rest come to terms with not just the billions in debt on ECB and various bank balance sheets but the 49 billion other reasons to avoid Grexit that have mounted in TARGET2 liabilities.
* * *
As Bloomberg reports,
Eurogroup has two choices tomorrow, either reject or accept Greece’s extension request, a Greek govt official says, in response to German Finance Ministry spokesman comments.
Greece has submitted request for 6-mo extension of loan agreement: official
Reuters adds that the Greece's government "said it was up to euro zone finance ministers to decide whether to accept or reject its proposal to extend a loan agreement, in a bid to play down German comments rejecting the proposal as insufficient. "The Greek government submitted a letter to the Eurogroup asking for a six-month extension of the loan agreement. Tomorrow's Eurogroup has only two options: either to accept or reject the Greek request," a government official said. "It will then be clear who wants to find a solution and who doesn't." Earlier on Thursday, the German finance ministry rejected Athens' request for an extension by saying it fell short of the conditions set out earlier this week by the euro zone.
What else is at stake besides the tens of billions of Greek sovereign bonds held by the ECB and various European official institutions? Why just some EUR 49 billion in Bundesbank Target2 claims which risk a prompt unwind once the sanctity of the "monetary union" is finally broken...
* * *
As Goldman recently warned, this is the worst case scenario...
That said, there are aspects that leave us more worried than we have been since the start of the Euro area crisis. The confrontation between Greece and its European creditors is taking place against different political constraints than on previous occasions. The new Greek government has to be able to claim at home that the program agreed on by its predecessors is all but defunct. While the European partners can agree to modify the content of the program, as we have seen occur in other program countries, they cannot abandon previous arrangements. In our view, the risk of a miscalculation in the negotiations remains high and will peak between now and month-end, when the current program ends.
...
To mitigate the risk of a failure of the two sides reaching an agreement by the end of the month, investors could consider buying deep out-of-money put options spanning this horizon on liquid equity indices. Given the systemic nature of the ‘shock’, we doubt that even the major markets would be unaffected.
And now, back to BTFATH.
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This is not the outcome the US was hoping for. Greece's geostrategical importance due to its central position in the Balkans, has always allowed it to punch above its weight in NATO (member since 1952) and carry special favours from the US. The US will now need to decide how it will respond to a request for billions $$ in emergency financing from a inexperience greek govt led by a group of crypto marxists attempting create communist nirvana in the Aegean .Maybe it can apply more pressure on the EU to reconsider its position.
^^^this. In any case, time is running out as there are numerous other communist states that may be willing to help Greece out. great comment.
Who knows what role Uncle Sam is playing in Greece considering Goldman played a role in weaponizing their debt that is now looking to blow up the Euro
hahaha, Hercule Poirot better have an ace up his sleeve!
"Hercule Poirot better have an ace up his sleeve!"
I think he's filming an update for "Three Act Tragedy"
How long before someone slashes Schauble's wheelchair tyres?
Drachma Queens
http://media.giphy.com/media/DUuyU3KyYGLNS/giphy.gif
I like the way Greeks play this. After all Varoufakis was Economist-in-Residence at Valve Corporation - a gamer, ROFL.
This is going to be sooooo embarressing for the EU as they cave in to Greece.
Epic.
My guess is "a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing". Ultimately someone will pay to keep Putin out. That's basically what's been going on for some time now.
tell the loan shark fuck off, we are broke, ain't gonna pay shit. then do it. 0 debt on the books - they will be EU's most stable economy..only if they show the world this public debt system was rigged to enrich banks.
the most obvious answers often are missed by so call smart people, as they are paid to not see them.
GREEK STYLE!
Data for 2012[78] place the Greek "black market" at 24.3% of GDP, compared with 28.6% for Estonia, 26.5% for Latvia, 21.6% for Italy, 17.1% for Belgium and 13.5% for Germany (partly in correlation with the percentage of Greek population that is self-employed[79] i.e., 31.9% in Greece vs. 15% EU average,[80] as several studies [81][82] have shown the clear correlation between tax evasion and self-employment).
At some point, the band aid has to be pulled off. Greece is either out now or later. If they stay in, they just buy some more time but nothing is going to change.
Do you really think people like that keep a budget bitchez?
More can kicking ahead, Greeks are addicted to the spice. they won't leave.
BAILOUTS are for BANKSTERS, silly, NOT PEOPLE
typical bailout agreements go to pay accumulated bond interest, so the recipient gets little if anything to their bottom line, leaves them in the same muddle as before BAILOUT.
if all greeks emptied their mattresses, greece would have its bailout
Essen meine Scheiße Schäuble
Time to export some hot mama's.
Essen meine Scheiße Schäuble
current cbank system is what is our economic suicide of ave person..one is born in debt by the state owed by banks and elite wealthy see income disparity for example.
what greece or any country for that matter could show is this economic suicide is planned and can be thrown off.
debt is illusion in a world of fiat money. there is no debt if there is no lender., get the idea.
Mr Varoufakis and Tsipras have some big balls. THIS IS SPARTA YOU MOTHERFUCKER SCHAUBLE.
Germans have always barbarians, civilization in the West arrived through Greece and might come back by killing the Minautor.
Tsipras & Varoufakis = Theseus
Goldman Sachs = Minautor.
Doctor V.
Part Vulcan, Part Spartan. Part Australian. = Powerful Hero, Powerful Man.
Not sure if any of the Greek actors in the current tragedy being played out before our eyes are trustworthy (literally, worthy of our trust), but isn't it rich that Goldman Sachs is now warning us about potential events in Greece when they were the very players who falsified Greek data to get that poor country admitted into the Eurozone in the first place?
"Like a dog to its vomit" comes to mind whenever thinking about those leeches.
Damned if he doesn't look it. He looks like a tough somebitch in a fight.. Of course time will tell if he has the brass to do it..
I am German and ur soooo right with fucking Schäuble -
but u missed another important prick, the "Zonenwachtel" Merkel (we call her quail from the DDR zone)
Unfortunately Varoufakis and Tsipras are writing a check with their mouth that their ass can't cash. Again, I hear no plan to actually fix the Greek economy. More free money is not plan.
And yes the Germanic tribes are barbarians..... Never forget that. We sacked Rome. We killed the eastern emperor. You can keep your "civilization" and your dead jewish god.
The U TURN is starting already, but look at the language:
German Economy Minister – “We can’t shut door now on talks with Greece” – KBC Thu, Feb 19 2015, 15:36 GMT | FXStreet Share on emailShare on printRelated News
- Growing optimism due to ECB QE could fuel the “sympathy selloff” in euro-rates – RBS
- EUR/USD: Greece headline risks looms – Scotiabank
FXStreet (Barcelona) - The KBC Bank Research Teamcomments on Greece’s u-turn and Germany’s reaction to the formers loan extension proposal.Key Quotes
“Germany has rejected a request by Athens to extend its €172bn bailout despite a significant U?turn by the new Greek government, which for the first time on Thursday promised to work on completing the economic reform measures required by the current rescue programme.” BULLSHIT.
“Spokesman Jäger said that Greek proposal was not substantive for a solution: “In truth, it aims at bridge financing without the demands of the programme. The text does not meet the conditions agreed on Monday in the eurogroup”." NO SHIT SHERLOCK! WE ALREADY KNEW THIS YOU FUCKTARD.
“After all, eurogroup president Dijsselbloem called for another extraordinary meeting tomorrow afternoon with the aim of reaching a deal this weekend at the latest following the Greek capitulation.” WTF.
“German economy minister Gabriel also downplayed the hawkish Jager comments: “we can’t shut door now on talks with Greece”.” SHITTING BRICKS.
EU: "So, what's your answer?"
Greece: "No...our answer is no."
Eu: "C'mon, seriously, what's it gonna be?"
Greece: "I told you, no."
EU: "Do you need more time?"
Greece: "How much time does it take to say no?"
EU: "Ok, ok...you twisted our arm. We'll give you another week."
I say Greece should play the same game right back. Just do whatever they are going to do, and when the EU calls, be completely obtuse...
EU: "Hey guys...just letting you know we didn't get your latest payment. When can we expect it?"
Greece: "Huh?"
EU: "The payment...the debt payment that's due. When can we expect it?"
Greece: "Whut?"...snickers in the background...
EU: "The DEBT payment! Your debt payment is late, when can we expect it?"
Greece: "Ummm, what number are you trying to reach?"
EU: "God dammit, you KNOW who this is, stop playing games!"
Greece:...hand over receiver, motions for silence from convulsing lawmakers in Athens..."Do you have Prince Albert in a can?"
EU: "Prince who?"
Greece: "Is your refrigerator running?" Coffee shoots out of Tsipras's nose...
"Tell 'em to send me a new keyboard first!"
Looool, the coffee almost shot out of my nose!
hehe you should write for South Park. Angela Testerberger vs Yanis Cartman.
Greek U Turn BOLLOCKS
Greek Promise to meet the conditions on monday BOLLOCKS
GREEK Capitulation BOLLOCKS
Those gutsy Greeks! How dare they!
We may be witnessing the unraveling of the EU. The oligarchs are terrified and shaking in their boots!
The oligarchs are terrified and shaking in their boots!...
That may be, but I suspect they will not go silently into the night.
That's right the killing will begin first.. Lots of killing before aristocracies go down, their downfall is always greased with the blood of the middle class..
Greece's position is based on the idea that if you owe a little money you have a problem. But if you owe a lot of money the bank has a problem.
The problem with Greece's strategy is that it's political elites still want to spend more than they have, have no intention of ever paying back the wealth they were loaned before, now, or will be loaned later.
The only thing that is certain is that Greece's current liabilities are finite, but its deficits extended into the future are infinite. Greek elites' moral bankrupcy preceeded and caused the nation's fiscal bankrupcy. (A widespread condition in the world right now.)
Europe, your choice is to lose a little money to Greece now, or to lose a lot later.
Deficits are sinkholes. Intentional deficits are infinite sinkholes. It is unwise to fill sinkholeswith money. Better to rectify the cause of the sinkhole, reinforce whatever structures risk falling into the sinkhole, and then move on.
Everyone in the world likes to get things free.
But, things are never free. Someone always has to pay.
Even knowing this, everyone still likes to get things free.
Everyone likes theft.
The problem with tolerating everyones' liking theft, is that soon there are many thieves but very little to steal.
Deficits are theft from the unborn.
You must be a descendant of Frederic Bastiat.
"have no intention of ever paying back the wealth they were loaned before,"
What wealth is this you speak of? 240 bill euro? Of this only 8% went to the Greek people, the rest went to European banks?
Marta Andreasen; asked the EU in her first audit, "what happened to the money"? She was propmptly suspended? She was of course referring to the millions given to Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal when they first joined the EU? AS WELL AS THE COUNTLESS MILLIONS THAT GO MISSING EACH YEAR! Time we all looked a lot more closely, just as Yanis Varoufakis has, and get out of this phoney set up that is costing us, the taxpayers a fortune!
You mean the 240 B that went to pay back Greek bondholders because they weren't getting paid by the Greeks themselves?
Okay, fair enough-- provided you tell me what happened to the 240 B in proceeds from the original sale of Greek bonds to investors. That money was paid into the hands of the Greek government and obviously squandered on something.
Ihave no problem with Greece defaulting or staying-- but I have a problem with them accusing their benefactors of being evil people who won't continue to benefit them on an unconditional basis.
At some point, virtue is going to have to rear its ugly head in this matter.
No one is better able to make money disappear than a junkie.
Asking where the money supplied to the Greeks was spent is about the same.
Not much different from asking the Detroit city ccouncil to detail where all the money from the bonds and US government was wasted. They ust spent it until there was no more.
How much was blown on the 2004 Olympics? Have you seen the shotty record keeping by previous Greek governments? The Greeks have been had by their own oligarchs.
Papandreou is Jewish. Goldman Sachs is Jewish
https://abravanel.wordpress.com/2008/06/15/pasok-the-great-jewish-politi...
Where is the fucking loot, yids?
How much of the 240 BILLION was transfered to MORDOR?
Wasn't too many years ago that banks, er, countries, would just simply attack, invade, kill and take over the bastards that didn't pay shit back and enslave the plebes, and sell that is not nailed down. We've lost our touch as a species.
Greece holds all the cards people. They are not worried about it. Greece will simply and gladly take the money from the US taxpayers in the form of GARP! 304 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to what our FED has been printing. Just think we US taxpayers will have a new 51st state!!
All to be paid back by allowing our fleets to use their deep water ports for a long long time!
A honest government which has the interests of Greek citizens in mind, instead of their own or their sponsors interests will be too difficult for the ECB to handle, which is a non elected body that represents the rich and the influential citizens of member countries. The best alternative for the Greek economic revival would be to default on their debts and leave the Eurozone.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article40231.html
I am amused that some comments just disappear. I signed in to upclick on the comment that the decision for Germany was to shit or to get off the pot. I can't find it.
Seems like a tragic loss....
You can't get blood from an olive!
Come on Mario ' do whatever it takes ' and pull another Vehicle on which the Troika/Markets can cling to from your ARSE.
This Greek-Eurozone stalement should be known as a Looper Stand-Off, my proposed addition to Game Theory.
[Spoiler warning, if you haven't seen the film Looper don't read any more.]
That is to say, the Greeks are saying to the Eurozone if you don't give us something we're going to blow ourselves
away (Grexit), thereby taking you (the Euro), with us.
You're welcome, Yanis.
if you ask me, the cynics prediction that greece will stay in the euro can be supplemented by the conspiracy theorists opinion that the high level oligarchs in nato , uk, german nazi multinationals actually don't care about the euro, they care about european dominance.
thus, if they see they can make an example of the communist syriza in greece and make communists look bad, to instigate a growth in golden dawn as an opposition party---then they will get a chance to send a message to the rest of europe to get in line or face the same consequences.
golden dawn will grow when misery grows in a post drachma greece. eventually, everyone will blame the communists for getting off the euro. the obviously polticial solution is the by then large fascist neo nazi golden dawn party. they will take control and lead greece forward, possibly negotiating to come back into the euro and privatising greek assets.
it's a perfect move for consoliditating european power. if you believe RUSSIA is a bargining chip for greece. you are deluded. if russia lends greece money , europe will come down even harder on russia and cut its own nose to spite itself. this gives the nato UK/US alliance even more power to create a financial crisis.
greece cannot gain independence from europe by taking money from russia the same as ukraine could not gain independence with the EU by yanukovich striking deals with PUTIN. these are the relationships of agnry lovers .
if the EU cannot have greece, no one will. there will be civil war in greece and a whole hell of a lot of violence before greece is allowed to maintain fully functioning ties with another nuclear power at the expense of NATO. after all, GREECE is STILL IN NATO. overnight , golden dawn leadership wil be given many millions of dollars of support, intelligence help , and weapons for growing their parts and beginning the march towards civil or not so civil conflict in greece. it was not so long ago greece was a dictatorship.
syriza's multi 40 point plan has already taken aim at NATO as well. if you think tsipra and other syriza leadership cannot be suicided or assasinated if they attack the sacred Nato relationship , you are very wrong. this isn't perestroika yet and the collapse of the european movement doesn't suddenlty mean nato and the cia are suddently as overwhelmed and incompetent as the KGB in pre collapset ussr.
At this point it's pretty obvious & risible. Greece ask's for an extension is a CONCESSION. They need to pivot to whom ever they self determine is in their best interest's of Greece. Whether China / Russia et al. Either become the change as Ghandi said or continue the same path of economic carpet bombing yourself. Be the first Domino for the cascade to follow. The theatrics are old & show the comlicitness of the whole charade. What are they waiting for divine intervention ?
Tomorrow is my Birthday.
Je suis Varoufakis.He is playing with these Marionettes
only on zh could commenters be so foolish as to think greece is suddenly going to become russias best friend.
it's as if zh'rs haven't read history , ww2, or otherwise, let alone modern history of greek dictatorship and the control of greece by nato. nato wants to attack russia now. and you think greece is suddenly joining nato's enemy? for political leverage?
isn't there only 2 answers to any request?
People who take this seriously and even buy puts on this as the article suggests probably don't understand Greek culture.
All the fun is in haggling over price. You never just walk up and pay the asking price. You scream. You name call. You walk away. You come back and threaten. In the end you settle on a price and both shake hands.
Iceland has absolutely no price haggling, there it actually is sticker price take it or leave it. They left it.
I believe Iceland have just jailed a few banksters...
You're making the same mistake as the Germans. Sometimes, as at present, some individuals act differently to the cultural norm, especially when their backs are to the wall, which is the situation Greece is now in.
There hasn't been any screaming and precious little haggling by the Greek government.
They planned their position and strategy over the last few years while Germany and the EU and ECB assumed that if Syriza came to power it would be just another corrupt Greek government, whose politicians were easily bought off. Turns out that's not the case and Germany and its minions has no plan B.
Watch out for a State Dept CIA Coup...Al la Ukraine...
...Or some sort of "major accident".
The Zen master holds a stick over his pupil's head and says, "If you tell me this stick is real, I will strike you with it. If you say to me this stick is not real, I will strike you with it. If you don't say anything, I will strike you with it."
This stick is brown.
In all the time I have been here on Zero Hedge and taken the red pill..there is one absolute I have come to swallow regardless of all we have seen before whenever we believe the status quo will be tested finally...for years now...All I know is that
Somehow the criminals will get their way and force their will on Greece...by hook or crook...this is however about the nearest I have seen them tested in recent memory and maybe I am just conditioned to it...Greece will miraculously final hour strike a deal...the NSA Blackamail net is not for show folks..
Same John, I didn't think they'd get this far before capitulating (which seemed likely to me) but they've also painted themselves into a tight corner with all this 'will of the people' and crazy democracy stuff, which as we know is fundamentally incompatible with Eurozone membership. It messes too much with the 'consensus' and 'mandate'. I've always figured that if Greece really went for the exit they would suffer all sorts of national emergencies. "Oh no, our main national power generation plant just exploded! Oh no, our flag ship just sank. Oh no, our international communications links have just been severed."
" As Goldman recently warned, this is the worst case scenario"
Yes, for Goldman. These Twats are only alive thanks to government and Central Bank intervention, they would have died, or broken into pieces in 2008. And today the entire financial system rests on MORE debt than in 2008. And an entirely new economic system, never before tried in a so called capitalist system. I speak of permanent zero to negative interest rates, mass asset purchases by central banks [who are bankrupt], and the whole system resting on money printing used to keep alive bankrupt banks and to blow asset bubble all over the place.
In NO sense is there any capitalism taking place, no markets not manipulated, no price discovery. We don't have a fucking clue what most things are really priced at.
Yet Goldman steps in with their concern over Greece? Goldman is like all the rest, living off of central banks, and ultimately living off of a world wide system of impovrishment of societies.
They have made the economies of the west into deserts and call it capitalism.
Jack, the pricing mechanism will soon adjust itself. The day when the store's shelves are bare and nobody is willing to either work or sell for the "official" price.
An ounce of gold for $1200 and an ounce of silver for $17 American Mickey Mouse Dollars? Really? The miners are already croaking on their deathbeds. They are shutting mines and mothballing equipment. It's cheaper to leave stuff in the ground on these large scale operations. There will be shortages and the paper price will be irrelevant soon.
Yes, that is what will happen. The mines are screwed, they can't operate at a profit, at these prices. So they shut down and gold is not produced. The snap back rally when people keep demanding physical, and there is none to buy.
"They have made the economies of the west into deserts and call it capitalism."
Excellent summation Jack.
As Victoria Nuland says, Fuck the EU!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fsladcp0E6A
Germany needs to be removed from the table. Germans are simply not good at negotiating. They're good at paying for the party though.
I would enter this as "donations" for economic development on the balance sheet and be done with it. Hopefully something will come back. A few streets with German names on it, whatever.
Everytime the spotlight is on Germany, it ends miserably. The irony is that Germans don't like the attention anyway. They like to be amongst themselves and work or innovate and have a good time.
The EU made it so that Germany was setup as the leader once again. It's a role that Germany just isn't comfortable with. Come to think of it, most aren't comfortable with that position.
Now is the time to start the talks on dissolving the EU and the ECB. Then whoever wants to regroup and join a new structure can do so. Provided it has a federal authority that those people inside that new structure get to vote on. At least that would be somewhat organic.
What we have now is a gigantic bureaucratic clusterfuck and nightmare enslaving 500+ million people.
No one wants to be part of an EZ without Germany because the whole point for the rest of them is to get some money from Germany.
This is a no win situation for the average person. The banks aren't going to be damaged much, even if Greece exists the EU. Most of the EU debt loans have been transferred to the public debt ledger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ
The ECB just needs a few more weeks to print enough bank notes, so that they can wallpaper over this mess.
The world's financal system is a giant pinata, full of excrement.
re The world's financal system is a giant pinata, full of excrement
With Goldman in a starring role as the The Sphincter.
"Greece - I'm Luvvin' Ya Baby!"
- Channeling Telly Savalas
quit bitching.
live your own life and forget about anyone else.
(understand the rules and break them accordingly)
Nein (rejected) Greek person, how do you say "next" in German?
There is no Grexit or "Greece" what part of "give up sovereignty upon entry" did they not understand?
What do you mean "you spent your sovereignty on vacation pay and an early retirement"?
Our Muslim tenants dont care about your problems Greek guy!
Honestly Greece has nothing to stand on. They knew the terms and went ahead and now they whine about it. Give them an extension and they still won't get it fixed.
Anyone else amused to see Germany speaking for Europe?
If only Adolf was alive to see it.
Also amusing has been the relegation of France. When the euro crisis blew up it was initially Sarkozy on stage, with Merkel behind him, laying down the law to the PIIGS. Over time, as it became clear Germany was the country with the money, Sarkozy became less prominent and then it was Merkel up front. Hollande has never got a look in.
Haha! To be a fly on that wall. If Greece leaves the Euro, leaving the ECB as the bag man it's over! German money will go straight down the tank (it's mostly theirs and Italy's, with some French) and there will be consequences, no matter what the talking heads will say. Snowballs won't be the only thing rolling down hill.
Never honor an old tomato given by a debtor.
Oh but you have to love the subliminal "middle digit" of this story to anything German and EU!
The Germans are necessarily the Nazis inthis case as a troika is involved.
National Socialism implemented by central banks? Interesting..if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck..is it a Nazi?