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What Ordinary Greeks Think Of Friday's Deal: "We Went Through Two Months Of Agony To Realize We Are Still A Debt Colony"
For all the third-party analysis, punditry and opinions such as this one by the Irish finance minister Michael Noonan:
"Their political problem is that this a reversal of their election position. There is absolutely nothing on the table that could be considered a concession. They're now compromising and compromising quite significantly," he told national broadcaster RTE, but made clear Athens had little choice. "The biggest threat to Greece was that their banking system would go belly up next Wednesday."
Noonan said Greece now faces another bailout on top of the two totaling 240 billion euros that it has taken since 2010. Friday's deal had been "the first set of discussions to ensure Greece doesn't collapse next week", said Noonan. "Once you get them into the safe space for the next four months, there'll be another set of discussions which will effectively involve the negotiation of a third program for Greece."
... when it comes to Friday's deal it all boils down to two things: promises, now broken:
- February 15, 2015: "(Greece) will not continue with a program which has the characteristics of the programs of previous governments" - Gabriel Sakellaridis
- February 16, 2015: "The “extend and pretend” game that began after Greece’s public debt became unserviceable in 2010 will end." - Yanis Varoufakis
- and February 20, 2015: "Greek finance minister says bailout extension is a great success"
But far more importantly, the real question is what the people on the ground think. Here is one answer:
Some Greeks wondered what the government had achieved. "We went through two months of agony, emptied the banks, to realize we are still a debt colony," 54-year-old electrician Dimitris Kanakis told Reuters. "The paymasters call the shots."
Here is Euronews with another:
Pensioner Paradisanos Rigas siad: "It looks to me that nothing has changed. Later on they'll throw us some bones and say everything is fine. Syriza will be saying we put up a fight, while the other side will be saying you did nothing. And I think that it will be the same, just more of the same."
And now that Greece has suffered its harshest hangover in years following several short weeks of hope that this time it may be finally different, it is time to repeat the farce from the beginning as yet another party will soon appeal to the Greek people with even greater and even more unrealistic promises, declaring that unlike Samaras, pardon, Tsipras, this time they will really show Germany who's boss.
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Greeks were pulling out 1bln euros a day out of the banks. They were voting with their cash. Now that's Democracy.
Except they voted politically too, and those demands have so far been ignored.
And will continue to be. This can not be solved politically. The polticians work FOR the banks.
Same as it always is, just like in the US... Say whatever you want to get in office, the immediately recant and do the exact opposite, all while skimming their share of the booty... Can anyone say Nov 2014?
Sounds like "hope and change" from 2008, while taking donations from Mr. Vampre Squid.
What was all that hoopla about "Game Theory" and Varoufakis? Maybe it all was just a game in the long run.... or "But this long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." ~ John Maynard Keynes
Given a long enough timeline, the mortality rate for all of us goes to zero... - Chuck Palahniuk
Banksters 10, dupesters 0.
Same as it's always been.
Hey it's all citizens that are the problem -- Geek, Americans , French,Canadians, all of them -- not just the politicians.
The citizens want all the treats, but they want someone else to pay.
Why anyone would want to be a politician in todays self-centred greed world , I will never understand.
I take exception. I don't want "treats," and I don't want anyone else to pay. All I ask, the only thing, is for the freedom to say "NO THANKS" and "BUGGER OFF!"
As for politics, you have to be a psychopath to thrive, at least until the system finally breaks and the masses won't be manipulated anymore.
Political Ponerology
This is what happens to every country that votes.
The best liar wins.
This is what happens when the best liar wins and isn't held to account by the people. How can even a few million control 7 billion?
"He who controls the spice, controls the universe." - Baron Harkonen
"What Ordinary Greeks Think Of Friday's Deal?"
---------------------------------------
Obviously, they are saying, "Bullshit!"
Tsipras did NOT do what he said he would do. He caved to the Euro-Lords.
So, how long now before he too is replaced? And we have to start all over again...
Ha! Exactly what TPTB want! Just keep kickin' that ol' can further down the road...
Says how?
Reuters, Euronews?
The only thing I see now is that the Greeks bought time and the EU now tries to kill them via the media in any form they can, and judging from comments here it is working.
Sometimes when you win.....you lose.
See you in a couple of months...
One astute commentator here a few days ago said words to the effect that Greece realizes the Eurozone has had it, so they are just angling to get the most they can out of a bad situation on their way out the door.
Maybe they got exactly what they wanted.
i read many well thought out solutions here. big credit to zh'ers. now if only the gap between the cog dis and the pain of change could be bridged. what was missing from this event was going to the people and laying it out in realistic terms. detail the pain and suffering and of course the goal with realistic timelines. nadda on any of this. it also would have served notice to the cartel we are fucking serious. oh well, rarely does a man or woman come along with a set...
Who couldda known that a politician who promises hope and change turns out to be another bankster owned lackey?
Wait a minute...
"Golden Dawn versus Charlie Heebdo: Round One.
But first a word from our sponsor of this fight.
Chase One/Capital Visa: your card, your life.
Accept only the best. You deserve it!"
"Elections matter"
Hahahahahaha morons
So, this is it then? People Power means jackshit?
What a pity, what a shame.
Greece is locked between a rock and a hard place. If they quit the Euro, the reforms post-euro might be too painful (even though, in the long term, they'd be free, and will be better positioned) - who wants to be the one who delivers the immediate pain?
Now, if Italy, Spain and to a lesser degree IRE and POR came out with some choice statements like "we're with you" to the former, and "if GRE do this, then so shall we" - then, maybe, just maybe Greece would have given the banksters (they of zionistic ilk), a bloody nose.
Oh well, better luck next time.
The Greeks should be happy over this. If they had dumped the banksters the US would have been obligated to bomb the shit out of them just like we have done, or want to do to all countries not beholding to the Red Shield.
America. Fuck Yea!
When you say it like that you sound like "one of those conspiracy theorists" who, even if you are right will be painted like a broken clock that is still right twice a day.
The Greeks should be happy because they aren't going to be invaded by the IS. Now we can focus on other issues. You listening over there Italy and Spain?
Well, at my age being right twice a day would be a great thing as I only got enough energy for one decision a day.
Though some countries would get that kind of treatment it wouldn't be Greece, that said I was pretty curious as to how things would go down if they were to leave. One thing is for sure, the financial powers that be would do everything in their power to make things much worse for the Greek people, and would succeed. I guess we won't find out now.
Here is a good summary of the debt based monetary system and how we got to this point. It needs some polish but its the best I have read so far.
http://debtcrash.blogspot.com/
Oh it looks like he put up a second post, the one I'm refering to is Intro and History
http://debtcrash.blogspot.com/
yes yes bwh, a rational view on a nations debt. but what you and the author miss is as important perhaps more so.
faith in a fiat paper. as long as fiat buys food shelter clothing medicine debt does not matter.
who is the debt is owed to does matter..the worlds banks and wealthy (those that buy bonds).
the debt holders have the most to lose in default and loss of faith in fiat.
they will ignore it, just as they did in any country that defaults today (greece) they will not call it that to avoid the CDO's derivative water fall. so if you cannot fail because you are TBTF. you will not.
fiat is illusion and the rules of illusion are not rational at any level but are usually criminal in the end
the fed is currently covering the USA debt and funding our wars and .gov spending- taxes are nolonger needed in this system..so by our systems logic just print every tax payers tax debt and be done with it.
Fiat money, and the ability to create money changes the effects of debt in one way, it allows debts to build evern larger thus causing more damage when the imballances are corrected.
"There is no means to avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought on by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.” Von Mises
This guys new post actually discusses this
http://debtcrash.blogspot.com/2015/02/debt-taken-on-by-fools.html
bwh, I agree and think nixon and long before him the formation of the FED, have brought us under the control of non american (in that they owe no loyalty to america) CFR nwo davos elites. the the crime of the fed (in direct conflict with money as written in the constitution)..has us in this illusion of money called fiat.
once the rules changed, (tbtf in 2008 is a great example)..we are left with debt payable in FRN's which are themselves as so often written: printed out of thin air.
what my point is ..this is not logical nor rational nor moral- it is illusion and therefore you can make it anything if you are in power. there are no rules -no obligations to pay off debt- what most here have trouble understanding because at our level common folk, debt does matter - it is still seen as a logical system-borrow on credit-pay it off or they take stuff back. we are good on the contract.
at the national and international level- no such rules apply.
Agreed
bwh then perhaps we are not all that different..I just take the logical leap to: greece has euro printing presses in greese..use them, pay off any debt you have to enclude tax debt of the greek people-eu may say these euro's are no good, but they come from printing presses they ok'd and used for money printing..let them try and make these euro's worthless and see the fall out from that.
They must default on their current debt if they want to go back to the Drachma. The exchange rate will suffer going back no matter what but the amount they would have to print to pay back the debt would completely destroy it. Not to mention if they paid back the debt with Drachma to foreigners essentially they would be selling the entirety of Greece. The only think you could buy with them would be in Greece so the banks would load up on everything from Greek Companies to real estate and the Parthenon.
Hi, A good start, once you have all that under your belt top it up with Creatures from Jekyll Island, Tragedy and Hope, Crossing the Rubicon, Confessions of an economic hitman, none dare call it conspiracy, and 50 years of deep state by Mark Gorton the limewire guy.
Given infinite nature of reality, everything that can happen will happen, so if we wait long enough, we will all at some point, sooner or later, spontaneously reform in the exact molecular order we have at present. Or better still, in the layers of infinite universes, we are all over the place, some place just the same, others doing different things. Obama is a cotton picker in some universe, and George Soros finally dies in another.
Soros and Kissinger can die together, holding hands. Sweet image, no? :)
"In the long run, we are all dead"
The reason why that was a famous line from Keynes is lost on everyone. People made a big deal out of it back then because it was the statement of a homosexual and a pedophile. Only a homosexual would make that kind of statement. Keynes was queer and he bragged about not wanting kids.
+1
Keynes was also known for changing his mind about his theories. My guess is he would see the failure in what has been done in the "church of his name".
Quite right. For all the demonization of the man's name and aspersions cast (like a sissy trying to throw a football) on his sexual orientation, he pointed out some rather serious flaws in the economic thinking of his day (from people who *never* change their theories, even after they're proven to be completely irrelevant bunk).
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't advocate giving $700M to banksters for destroying the economy.
No doubt he was skilled in the art of ECONOMIC TACTICS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YiPC91QUk
the "Game Theory" was being played -- on the Greek people!!!...there never was any real intention to play hardball with Germany...the game was to make everyone THINK they were actually GOING to play hardball.
You called it right, sir, on Feb 5th you wrote...
"I feel that the Greek Fin Min touring Europe makes him look like he's looking for favors and handouts. If he truly has the upper hand at the negotiating table, then why doesn't he just stay home."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-05/greece-big-picture-update-and-w...
In the long run we're all dead?
Only true for gay and/or childless men.
Folks,
Y'all gotta hold the faith. We have all had our "Hope n Change" and we jus gotta hang on and it gonna git even better.
Our POTUS has been working his butt off for all of us. Now, you guys ever heard him complain when he had to interrupt his golf game ?
C'mon, cut the guy some slack and it all gonna come right.
If it don't............... Well........................ its your butt, innit ?
2008 was much worse, The US was once a superpower, Obama killed it turned it into Greece.
I still laugh at the chumps who voted Republocrat, thinking the republicans would fix immigration.
Hahahha.
Go third party or don't go at all!
True Leftists talk big, then roll over when they are offered a piece of the action for themselves, because that was the point in the first place (feed off the host, "gimme some of your shit"). True Rightists (think Putin) call you "pussies", kick your asses all over the parking lot, and can't be bought off. They are not in it for a piece of the action, they are in it for the whole works.
So maybe the Greeks need to figure out just what it is that they are trying to accomplish. Perhaps they just got what they actually wanted, but don't know it yet.
This is all theater until the Euro crashes. Greece never had the ability to pay back the 320 billion it owed to the EU even before these negotiations. So now lend them more money that no one ever expects to pay back.
LoL, this game will go on for another 100 years.
Really. How well did the Euro do for the 1st 100 years? It has the lifespan of a tick, Mr packer.
And that tick will still be alive long after you're dead. Watch how the 'rules' now change to suit the circumstances.
A currency is a note, a promise to pay. Well what does that note pay? FUTURE GOODS and services. That is the underlying value of the Note. Why have it if I cannot buy Goods and Services?
When Germany stops PRODUCING, due to Global Economic DEPRESSION, and there is NO PRODUCTION to back up that note, then what happens to the value of that note, especially when there are too many in existence already?
The problem with the Euros being produced in Greece is that they have NO VALUE because Greece is idle and NOT PRODUCING. Germany will not subsidize Greece forever and Greece will not cut back its welfare programs. They cannot as they will starve. That is Politically untenable.
After Greece leaves, which will ultimatey happen, or perhaps even before Greece leaves, so will Italy, Spain, and Portugal sue for Debt Relief as the precedent has been set.
The Euro will unravel quite a bit more rapidly than you can imagine. Unbacked Fiat Currencies have an average lifespan, historically, for about 40 years. The Euro will not last that long. I will be amazed if it is still around to celebrate its 20th Birthday.
The golden rule-- China and Russia have the Gold they make the rules. Mr. Packer.
Mr. Packer...Now that's some funny shit.
"How well did the Euro do for the 1st 100 years?"
well, officially the EUR started on January 1st, 1999. but if you see the currency grids as the same thing just in a different shape, you have to go back to the 1979 European_Exchange_Rate_Mechanism
seriously, does anybody here know anything beyond the propaganda about the EUR? we had a problem, after Nixon killed the Bretton Wood's accords, in 1971
the envisioned solution was first currency pegs, like the one the Danish Krone still has, then a stabilization fund, and then a common currency
the EUR is the response to Nixon's "our currency, your problem". If you have a better solution, please advance it while I read the Squid's reccomendations on how they want to short the PLN and the HUF for reasons that have nothing to do with Poland or Hungary. But it has to be a solution with some connection to the realities of a global reserve fiat currency, or the phenomenon of dollarization, or the phenomenon of Hot Money and Carry Trades, or the 1999 megabanks
because the EUR was designed with those realities in mind, and wishful thinking won't take the external pressures away that are the reasons for the EUR, or pegs or floors
Wishful thinking -- thinking Europeans could give u their identities for a common identity is wishful thinking on the part of the shtheads in Brussels and the squid.
That being said -- big shame on your ghordo. You disappeared as soon as the Greeks might have blown the whole thing up. Then when your inside sources said its all good. Shame on you. Next time, stay on here and take your whippings or just don't come back to gloat.
Again -- you have won the battle. In the end -- we will win the war.
Not any time soon HT. Take another look at the vid and look at the people wandering around the square and in the market, the body language says it all, no one there gives a rats arse so long as the free shit keeps flowing and it hurts some one else...I'm alright jack, so fuck the guy next door.
I'd like to edit this. I wrote it originally on my phone pre-caffine this morning:
Wishful thinking -- thinking Europeans could give up their identities for a common identity is wishful thinking on the part of the shtheads in Brussels and the squid.
That being said -- big shame on your ghordo. You disappeared as soon as the Greeks might have blown the whole thing up. Then when your inside sources said its all good -- you show back up. Shame on you. Next time, stay on here and take your whippings like a man or just don't come back at all.
Coward.
Again -- you have won the battle. In the end -- we will win the war.
@Ghordius ^^^
I don't agree with you on a lot of different issues, but your observation here about the Euro is very accurate.
Actually HT you are the winner in this battle also as it buys you some more time to prepare.
And as for the war....We will all lose it...all of us...GLOBALLY
Some will lose a little. Others will lose everything which they have ever worked for. Others will even lose their lives. But we will all lose.
When it gets too intense even I will take a break from Hedge. That is not cowardice. It is called keeping your sanity.
"seriously, does anybody here know anything beyond the propaganda about the EUR?"
Certainly NOT. Everything published is evasion and lies. How could we possibly know anything else?
The missing element of reality is that Greece (and every other nation and individual on earth) must produce real goods and services with real utilitarian value and do it competitively in the world market. There is no mention of that in the EU discussion. Everything is about money and debt.
Creating money and debt will not produce a single potato, unclog a sewer, sew on a button, manufacture medicine or tires or generate electricity. That is ignored in Europe (and the rest of the Western world) in pursuit of the socialist fantasy of something for nothing.
Money only has value if it represents real, useful goods and services that actually exist. Someone has to produce them for them to exist. Where and when has that been discussed at a EU meeting?
The only political movement I know of that openly recognizes this harsh fact is the US Tea Party - leaderless and vilified.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
When the EU recognizes that fact and begins to emphasize it in public, we will have something other than propaganda to discuss. Until then, it is just lies and evasion believable only to fools.
But we are exceptional..... So there....
The Euro was designed to allow honest defaults. Because separate country defaults would not devalue the hell out of the currency. Similar to how Detroit defaulted but did not devalue the dollar. And with the non nation state ECB, they took the presses away from the politicians.
It was all going to work pretty good until Goldman got control of it.
Goldman is slowly destroying what was the replacement of the dollar system. The replacement of Bretton Woods 2.
Under Trichet, the ECB raised interest rates and wouldn't even think about printing. But as soon as Goldman scooped it, they eased. And now they are printing.
The euro never had a chance of replacing the dollar it was a terribly made currency union.
the euro was never designed to allow defaults. they dont have a common treasury, they all buy each others bonds. when one defaults its a domino effect in the banking system. did you just make that up yourself ?? because the world has been saying this since the euro started.
The ECB should have never raised interest rates in the 1st place. everyone was shocked they were that stupid to raise rates and what happened ?? the economy went in the hole fast. what you and most on here dont understand is that creating money out of so called thin air is not the problem it is charging interest on it. the principle was in fact created but the interest has to come out of the principle. thats why this system has to have inflation (new money/debt) or else it will implode like the house of cards it is.
INTEREST IS USURY
"The euro never had a chance of replacing the dollar... " where? in the eurozone or in the whole world?
btw, if gold was the accepted money of the world, would we then need a World Treasury?
Replacing the dollar as the medium for oil trading.
"This can not be solved politically."
Perhaps the peons of the world will finally come to this realization. Voting at the polls will not change anything. The true believers will try everything to shame you into voting for this sellout or that sellout, but the results will be the same until the money and power brokers behind the curtains are removed. End of story.
Ive been saying that for a while. "hope and change" greece style. These people got exactly what all the dupes who voted for obama got: more of the same. Syriza won't do jack shit. Even their pledge to end 'austerity' is bullshit. They are out of money, their govt was far too bloated, and promised far to much to far too many. Therefore those promises will be defaulted upon. This is happening now, and the last ones to get defaulted on will be the banks who hold greek bonds, same as always. They can't go back to their big spending ways even if they wanted to because there isn't any money left
Voting for less Govt means voting for self imposed austerity. Try selling that to the free shitters.
The tell all along has been the refusal to discuss returning to the drachma. As long as they are under the euro, they play by the rules of the euro. Going to the drachma would not make them rich. It would leave them just as poor as they already are. But at least it would give them a little flexibility for the future, a little more (dare I say?!) freedom.
Decentralization will be the only real change. Anything that depends on the centralized authorities is bullshit and will yield exactly what we already have. It's that simple.
They can't talk about it, their banks would fall over the next day.
Intelligent Greeks pulled out money from Banks, the FSA voted believing that Europe will give them free shit paid by other states and mainly Germany.
As expected, it didn't woks so well.
I don't remember them voting for all their banks and pension funds going bankrupt, if they had voted for that their votes could have been honored.
They voted for fairytales and their votes would have been ignored either way.
Notice they gave the age of Kanakis the electrician as 54, but ommitted the age of Rigas , the pensioneer. No doubt, they are the same age.
I told you.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Digital_clock_c...
What these lazy ass Greeks need to understand is that NOBODY is going to continue subidizing the very same spending party that already bankrupted them. They can stay in the Euro or go back to the Crapma, but either way they must BALANCE THEIR BUDGET and LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS. Sorry losers, but the party is PERMANENTLY OVER!
2010- 200bn send to Switzerland by the rich Greeks, nobody has any account where this money comes from (legally earned?) or if it had been taxed, to date the governments have not tried to verify
Since 1990 Greek political clans have turned in to Billionaires! Nobody has any account where this money comes from (legally earned?) or if it had been taxed, to date the governments have not tried to verify
Your politicians lied but what did you expect of Greek politicians?
Syriza capitulates to the EU
By Robert Stevens21 February 2015
The Greek government has repudiated its election pledges, agreeing Friday to a four-month extension of the existing loans and austerity programme dictated by “troika” of the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund.
After nearly a month of negotiations with the political representatives of the European banks, Syriza has accepted the conditions demanded by the troika. The Eurogroup statement noted the agreement remained conditional on Greece presenting, on Monday, a “first list of reform measures, based on the current arrangement.”
Syriza’s proposals must be approved the following day by the Eurogroup and the troika, who will “provide a first view whether this is sufficiently comprehensive to be a valid starting point for a successful conclusion of the review.”
April was set as a deadline for Greece to complete a final list of austerity measures, which will be “further specified and then agreed” by the troika.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/21/gree-f21.html
This embarrassing capitulation by the petty-bourgeois Syriza encapsulates the utterly despairing problem facing any pseudo-Socialist party relying upon the democratic process.
Democracy is dead - well proven by Syriza and its German overlords. We now need to supplant democracy with a political process NOT controlled by the bankers, NOT controlled by the oligarchs, NOT controlled by the 1% Saturday People, and certainly NOT controlled by the craven imperialistic capitalistic running-dogs of the USA.
Greece needs to default, right now, and let the dice fall where they may. I suspect that printing the New Drachma will be less of a problem than the "austerity" that these Syriza traitors have caved-in and agreed to.
The utter shame.
Democracy is alive and well. It is pretty easy to scare people and get them to vote the way the media tells them to vote. Pretty soon all the economic refugees in the US will get the right to vote. Does anyone want to guess how they as a group will vote?
This has already happened once before when the new world was conquered.
Democracy, as I say, is dead.
Once you have a majority voting in favour of gibsmedats, then I'm afraid that your entire country is fucked.
Fish, if you can see an upside to this slow but steady fall into the cauldron of the idiocy of popular democracy, please let me know.
Democracy as an intellectual concept, and indeed as a political construct, is dead. Finis. No more.
Presented for public amusement is the tyranny of the majority. We need a new system. The people who want the gibsmedats may not particularly like any such new system.
Like Rome and Athens before them, people will learn lessons from this time and probably civilization(s) will be guided by certain righteous principles for maybe a longer time the next go around. That is, of course, if you believe anyone is going to survive this one.
Sugestions?
Umm, how about a constitutional republic. In which democracy is tempered by certain inalienable rights, guaranteed by a bill of rights that explicates them, and that no government would dare try overturn, regardless of what the majority think.
Might be worth a try?
It was tried. It failed miserably. The human condition leads us down the same paths over and over again. Look after you and yours and, in the words of George Carlin, enjoy the Freak Show. Even in Greece the most productive are likely getting by. Skirting the system and doing as well as they can. That's all us few enlightened can do. I have sympathy for my fellows, but I've also witnessed the abject stupidity that brought many of them to their various troubles. Cynical as it may sound, playing Superman is the most foolish errand.
Ropes
Democracy, as envisioned by the naive, was never actually alive in the first fucking place, so lamenting it's passing seems silly.
America lasted what, 8 years before the Alien and Sedition Act?
How long before blacks and women could vote?
Stop patting yourself on the back; you just look like an ass.
Maybe they better reinstall the barricades
The people of Greece already did, albeit figuratively - by not paying their taxes up to the election (not that many paid them in the first instance).
I can't see them reversing that trend for the new government after Friday's u-turn.
Revenue will plummet further as Greece circles the drain.
The next tranche of Greek eurobonds will be fully securitised by an unlimited supply of young nubile Greek women.
That's what happens when they have control over the printing press, they OWN everything including YOU........
NO ONE should have that much power and control.
Agreed. This is why the *only* way to regard the greeks as being serious when it comes to the next round of negotiations is if we hear that they have made contingency plans to re-issue the drachma.
Yes, and it can be a gold Drachma.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/ltokyoembassiesoutoftokyo.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/BILATERAL.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/breakthrough.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/mboard3.pdf
If the Greeks had enough gold to float a backed Drachma, they wouldn't be up this creek in the first place.
Greece has a political party who was serious, Golden Dawn, whose MP's had to run their campaigns from prison. I'm not aware of any material number of Syriza MP's being imprisoned. In other words, I think Syriza cut a deal with the empire long ago...
Or just recently. With all the money sloshing about it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine a few billion of it finding its way into the Syriza coffers to help them come around to the proper way of thinking.
Or they found out he fucked a dead goat at a party.
Not a stretch, for Greece. It was a well established tradition, when I was there, for vacationing Brits, stumbling home with a bellyfull of retsina, to shag any donkey that wandered within range. Well, any female donkey, they weren't homo's or nuttin'.
I don't think Brits do that in Britain, so obviously the Greeks are to blame.
I think you are right on there.
Also when the Little Boy Tsipras was presented to his bosses in Brookings Institute he was confirmed as the next Whore ...oops.. sorry I meant Prime minister
Could Golden Dawn REALLY be trusted? or are they easily bought off with a suitcase of cash?
It must have at least been difficult to buy them off, hence the prison.
That's like saying you think Libertarians are sell-outs because the KKK can't get on a ticket north of the Mason-Dixon line.
Greeks- It's time you switched over to the ruble and or yuan. You dont need Europe as much as they need you to keep their banking systems running ( till it goes busts anyway).
All your trade can be done with Russia, China and Asia.
And you will have a head start when the rest of Europe goes bust.
European Spring in the making.
Live from the Acropolis, we are proud to present The Who, performing songs from their classic album "Sell Out."
We are all little worms on a big fucking hook.
The great delusion of mankind is to trust government.
But they had such high hopes! ;-)
they got exactly what they wanted, they stay with the EU. ;-)
Yes.
Independence is scary, its new and unknown. Much more comforting for the short term to elect those who feign outrage at your circumstances, so they can make a better deal (or not) with the bank...lol.
I would have had much more respect for the Greeks if they had just elected people who said fuck you, we're leaving the parasitical aristocracy behind and charting a new course for ourselves.
But no, its delay delay delay the inevitable.
Like the movie The Jerk...but what about all the stuff? ;-)
The same could be said about a great many other countries, but your correct, no one really wants hope and change, despite some minor inconveniences, life is still far too comfortable for the flock.
"we're leaving the parasitical aristocracy behind... "
which ones? that of the Greek oligarchs, crony capitalists and banks or those of the european partners?
there is one little thing that is seldom mentioned, here. trust in governance of the creditor nations is still higher then of local governance, in Greece
and it has a powerful symbol: the very EUR banknotes Greeks hold at home, exchangable in Greece and everywhere in this world for real goods and services
I thought we were talking about people, banks, vampires and the Troika Ghordius. The whole sordid thing, the vampire and the victim being promised eternal debt life, it all just appears so unseemly to me.
One shouldn't complain too loudly on the one hand about how much blood is being drawn out (foreign imposed "awsteriteee" as some like to call it...lol...trying to retain some sort of personal dignity) while in the act of asking the dear Count if the throbbing jugular vein he's eye-balling is being presented to him to his liking.
Thats really what it is.
They should just stab it through the heart with a wooden stake and say the Count chose poorly ;-)
The problem is they have to go through so much short term pain. The sheeple will immediately turn on the party and blame them for the pain. So, stay imprisoned and enslaved with long term grinding pain or suffer acutely, severely for a short period. Like the collapse of the USSR, few years of suck and they're back baby. Or, you can get used to sucking bankster dick and tell yourself it's not that bad.
My wife tells me giving birth involves short term pain and being in the room with her I can attest to the fact that she was not faking it...lol.
But she also says the long term joy & fullfillment derived by all (from that moment of short term pain) was well worth it ;-)
There's the very real possibility that a Greek exit would end about as well as a teenage girl running away from home and last about as long too.
They are not America giving the finger to Britain with a country full of resources to exploit.
Yeah, probably so.
Maybe they should lower their life expectations a little bit and realize moving out of "Mom & Dad's house" carries some personal responsibility with it.
But they would be free ;-)
Except this would be like moving out of your parent's place while also taking over paying their mortgage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcwz8-EfFYE
Pics of Tspiras with other EU leaders said it all, like a giddy little girl joining the tribe.
Well, they are Greek after all. What did you expect?
The Greeks need to vote in Golden Dawn.
Then when the GD tax collector shows up at their door with a truncheon, they can revel in the fact that tax collecting has been fixed.
Greece is so screwed, and all the principals that did it got away with it.
Not one arrested or prosecuted.
We did so much better in the USSA eh. Remind me, how many even arrested since 2008?
uhm, zero? What do I win?
"Their political problem is that this [is] a reversal of their election position."
Are you telling me that politicians are lying SOBs who will say anything to get elected and care about nothing other than their own careers? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!
Hope and change, baby, hope and change!!!!!!
How can you tell when a Greek politician is lying ?
When they bendover & say thanks can I have another extension....
Da Da Ta Da Da Da Da...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-SNrvHdZJE
Geeze, I'm sure glad this is only happenning to the Greeks, and that the US economy is humming right along, or so we are told:
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15894440/kctv5-investigations-modern-debtors-prisons
Am I supposed to cry for this jackass that borrows money, can't keep a job for more than two weeks consecutively, but is too busy to make his court date?
You want to see debtors in prison? Look at Americans stuck in fucking Dubai!
to get to long term solution you need a liquidity bridge for the short term - The Germans and everyone else understands that so they will shoot your legs out from under you at each step
only solution is short term extreme pain which the populace needs to get to the promised land = reject the debt 100% / form new constitution / create new currency / new rules / nationalize all the top 30 families holdings 100% - and start from scratch
they will not let you free tomorrow or 100 years from now - forget it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eighteenth_Brumaire_of_Louis_Napoleon
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The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about Karl Marx’s work. For the coup d'état itself, see French coup d'état of 1851.
1852 publication in Die Revolution
Part of a series on
Marxism
Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels
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The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon (German: Der 18te Brumaire des Louis Napoleon) was an essay written by Karl Marx between December 1851 and March 1852, and originally published in 1852 in Die Revolution, a German monthly magazine published in New York and established by Joseph Weydemeyer. Later English editions, such as an 1869 Hamburg edition, were entitled The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte.
The essay discusses the French coup of 1851 in which Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte assumed dictatorial powers. It shows Marx in his form as a social and political historian, treating actual historical events from the viewpoint of his materialist conception of history. Along with Marx's contemporary writings on English politics, the Eighteenth Brumaire is a principal source for understanding Marx's theory of the capitalist state.[1]
The title refers to the Coup of 18 Brumaire in which Louis Bonaparte's uncle, Napoleon Bonaparte, seized power in revolutionary France (9 November 1799, or 18 Brumaire Year VIII in the French Republican Calendar).
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In the preface to the second edition, Marx said it was the intention of the work to "demonstrate how the class struggle in France created circumstances and relationships that made it possible for a grotesque mediocrity to play a hero's part."[2]
The work contains the most famous formulation of Marx's view of the role of the individual in history, often translated to something like: "Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past." Unfortunately this translation obscures the meaning of his line - which should be read more like "The people make their own history, but they make it not however they want, not under self-selected circumstances, but out of the actual given and transmitted situation. The traditions of all the dead generations burden, like a mountain, the minds of the living."
Marx's interpretation of Louis Bonaparte's rise and rule is of interest to later scholars studying the nature and meaning of fascism. Many Marxist scholars regard the coup as a forerunner of the phenomenon of 20th-century fascism.[3]
It catalogues the mass of the bourgeoisie, which Marx says that impounded the republic like its property, as composed of: the large landowners, the aristocrats of finance and big industrialists, the high dignitaries of the army, the university, the church, the bar, the academy, and the press.[4][5]
"History repeats ... first as tragedy, then as farce"[edit]
This book is the source of one of Marx's most quoted[6] statements, that history repeats itself, "the first as tragedy, then as farce", referring respectively to Napoleon I and to his nephew Louis Napoleon (Napoleon III):
Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. Caussidière for Danton, Louis Blanc for Robespierre, the Montagne of 1848 to 1851 for the Montagne of 1793 to 1795, the nephew for the uncle. And the same caricature occurs in the circumstances of the second edition of the Eighteenth Brumaire.[7]
Marx's sentiment echoed an observation made by Friedrich Engels at exactly the same time Marx began work on this book. In a letter to Marx of 3 December 1851, Engels wrote from Manchester:
.... it really seems as though old Hegel, in the guise of the World Spirit, were directing history from the grave and, with the greatest conscientiousness, causing everything to be re-enacted twice over, once as grand tragedy and the second time as rotten farce, Caussidière for Danton, L. Blanc for Robespierre, Barthélemy for Saint-Just, Flocon for Carnot, and the moon-calf together with the first available dozen debt-encumbered lieutenants for the little corporal and his band of marshals. Thus the 18th Brumaire would already be upon us.[8]
Yet this motif appeared even earlier, in Marx's 1837 unpublished novel Scorpion and Felix, this time with a comparison between the first Napoleon and King Louis Philippe:
Every giant ... presupposes a dwarf, every genius a hidebound philistine.... The first are too great for this world, and so they are thrown out. But the latter strike root in it and remain.... Caesar the hero leaves behind him the play-acting Octavianus, Emperor Napoleon the bourgeois king Louis Philippe....[9]
I'm not very surprised Greece backed down. It's the same old game over and over again. The collapse is coming, so the ruling party chooses to put it off as long as possible, and you might as well, since there is little difference between the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do. They both end in the same place.
This is the greatest moment of Greece's existence and they are off missing it thinking the show will go on. They should be rioting harder now than ever before. They should be burning their government buildings along side the banks. They should change the landscape of humanity and tear down Syriza before it gets started. Kill the politicians and kill the bankers. They are playing with humanity's destiny and they deserve justice.
imho, your proscription for justice is
abhorent. mystery works in mysterious
realms, much better than riots and
property destruction. no?
Riots and property destruction are not good...that is not good enough.
There needs to be executions, beatings and floggings...a purging of the wickedness. Greece serves as a demonstration that THERE ARE NO POLITICAL SOLUTIONS.
The tree of Liberty is fed only through Blood Sacrifice. While it is better that if it were the oligarch's blood, rather than my own, I will sacrifice my own if it needs to happen.
To Liberty I will pay my dues.
Fuck the Banker and fuck the NSA.
Bomb 'em.
Most people do not understand why these events are happening to them. They look to the wrong people and therefore cannot solve their problems through violence, as it would not be directed at those who are causing them harm. As was clearly stated in 1984, the prols will never enter a revolution as they are too ignorant (intentionally kept so) to understand how and why they are being oppressed. Any uprisings (based on say, food shortages or some such thing that causes peasant revolt) would be quickly deflected and divide and conquer tactics would rapidly shift the mob into the bidding of the ptb. We are not dealing with 18th century oligarchs who had limited technology and historical understanding (there hadn't been a lot of revolutions prior to the 18th century {only England which was mostly considered a backwater [at the time] in Europe and not a model}). Our oligarchs are mobile and capable of exerting power to and from anywhere in the world(jet technology can take them anywhere in the world and communications tech can keep them in charge from where ever they go and weapons tech that allows them to kill billions at the press of a button).
Violence is not our answer. It is/will be the answer for the oligarchs however.
I was at the Liquor Store the other day. I sold the owner a 22kt Chain and took a promissory note. I figured that since he did not have the adequate amount of currency to pay for it then I would use this note both to finance his purchase as well as to teach him that the note which he wrote was like the Dollar, a promise to pay.
Now he is an Iraqi immigrant...who likes Obama. But just like many other Americans, he does not even think about what he is doing when bartering Dollars for useful goods and services. A Dollar, used as the currency, is just a promise to pay for future Goods and Services, ideally which will be produced... The note which I took in lieu of the Gold Chain served a dual purpose as I am demonstrating that the retirement of his debt is destroying the value of the Note.
So in walks this "drunk". He now seems to be a little more functional when I first met him and is learning Welding at a Trade School, a useful skill.
But this Iraqi Shopkeeper thought that the drunk knew absolutely nothing about Economics. And this Sober Drunk nailed him to the wall. He knew who Marriner Eccles was. You know? That Head of the Fed guy who testified to the US Congress that if there was not any debt then there would not be any "money" back in 1941.
How many people lost their homes...TO THE BANKS...as a result of 2008?
Many, and far too many, are much more aware than you may want to believe. TeeVee viewership is declining in the USA. The networks are no longer trusted. News is garnered from Comedy Central TeeVee Shows. The internet has supplanted the vast control that the Mass Media used to muscle over the population.
Even Hillary Clinton was complaining as a US Senator that the US Government was losing the Information War.
Even our little motley crew over here has a Number 14 ranking of Internet Traffic. That is huge considering the plethora of websites on the World Wide Web.
When Drunks and Street People can tell me who Marriner Eccles is then it kind of opens my ears a bit and gives me some hope that the propagandists will not succeed at diversion tactics for long. Now they may do well with the well to do, the TeeVee watching crowd. But that is now a minority and that minority is shrinking each and every day.
When people tell me that they have read what I have published over at Kitco Forums I know that I am having an impact. I thank that troll over on Kitco Forums cluing me into Zerohedge as it has a much broader audience. He did his bosses a real favor. LOL
The US Government has lost the Information War. Now they are attempting to regulate it. But it is far too little and much too late for them.
And when the masses become hungry anybody who has ever worked for a Bank is going to be fair game. It is an eventuality. You can be assured of that.
AND FOR THE REST OF YOU...Turn off your TeeVee Set and WAKE UP.
BTW...When you reveal your name and address, as I have, and are as critical of the Banks as I've been, just do not be too surprised when they close your Bank Account and steal your deposits.
Woe be unto those who confuse dollar bills with real bills.
Great rant.
Well to apply your program, just hire some ISIS militant, they will do it well !
And when they're done and they still have the debt and some burned out buildings...then what?
How much of the blame should be directed at the population? They demanded change yet they did not want to leave the euro by a 70+% margin. The only change that would work is if they left the euro. Staying with the euro is simply economic shackles which they apparently wanted.
Such is life.
They can borrow Jeb Bush if they want...
Henny Youngman: Take my despicable oligarch, please!
Meet the new boss.....The same as the old boss
It seems that Z-H is both a mouthpiece and cheerleader for the failure of Syrzia, with damn good cause.
SYRZIA, has the whip hand here, as their guys have had the krap knocked out of them and been stolen blind by the previous govt by oligarchy. Things could get worse, but the Greek vox popluli are numb, innured to pain, and battle hardened. Oh yes , the Russian (remember them ?) Duma just ratified membership in the new $100BIL Bricky Devel Bank. OH damn !!
Considering Z is part of the alternative face of MSM, likely a strategy of damning SYRZIA with faint praise is what is operative here. What would be objective journalism is to present objective viewpoints and examine them, but this has not been the case. Test it, see what they publish and mark it on the wall for reference in future weeks.
"it ain't over till the fat lady sings."
someone said it. it is repeated for
obvious reason,
time.