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What Ordinary Greeks Think Of Friday's Deal: "We Went Through Two Months Of Agony To Realize We Are Still A Debt Colony"
For all the third-party analysis, punditry and opinions such as this one by the Irish finance minister Michael Noonan:
"Their political problem is that this a reversal of their election position. There is absolutely nothing on the table that could be considered a concession. They're now compromising and compromising quite significantly," he told national broadcaster RTE, but made clear Athens had little choice. "The biggest threat to Greece was that their banking system would go belly up next Wednesday."
Noonan said Greece now faces another bailout on top of the two totaling 240 billion euros that it has taken since 2010. Friday's deal had been "the first set of discussions to ensure Greece doesn't collapse next week", said Noonan. "Once you get them into the safe space for the next four months, there'll be another set of discussions which will effectively involve the negotiation of a third program for Greece."
... when it comes to Friday's deal it all boils down to two things: promises, now broken:
- February 15, 2015: "(Greece) will not continue with a program which has the characteristics of the programs of previous governments" - Gabriel Sakellaridis
- February 16, 2015: "The “extend and pretend” game that began after Greece’s public debt became unserviceable in 2010 will end." - Yanis Varoufakis
- and February 20, 2015: "Greek finance minister says bailout extension is a great success"
But far more importantly, the real question is what the people on the ground think. Here is one answer:
Some Greeks wondered what the government had achieved. "We went through two months of agony, emptied the banks, to realize we are still a debt colony," 54-year-old electrician Dimitris Kanakis told Reuters. "The paymasters call the shots."
Here is Euronews with another:
Pensioner Paradisanos Rigas siad: "It looks to me that nothing has changed. Later on they'll throw us some bones and say everything is fine. Syriza will be saying we put up a fight, while the other side will be saying you did nothing. And I think that it will be the same, just more of the same."
And now that Greece has suffered its harshest hangover in years following several short weeks of hope that this time it may be finally different, it is time to repeat the farce from the beginning as yet another party will soon appeal to the Greek people with even greater and even more unrealistic promises, declaring that unlike Samaras, pardon, Tsipras, this time they will really show Germany who's boss.
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@Denaliguide1 - what part of Fight Club do you not understand? The Tylers do not speak with one voice and the fighting commenters even less so
I have spent quite a few hours mulling the document and press coverage produced yesterday concerning the confrontation between Syrizia and the Troika concerning the Greek debt situation...
It may well be too early to conclude that Syrizia has folded. This might be a play for time by the Greeks.
The Troika/ECB/reditor block is indeed intensly resistant to negotiation concerning the debt/fiscal situation of Greece. This is also instructive for the other debtor states of the EU such as Portugal, Italy, etc.. It has direct bearing upon the political pressures building within the other troubled debtor nations.
Although I too am disappointed that Syrizia has not taken a more confrontational approach or openly instigated emergency measures irrespective of the EU mechanisms; I believe it is too early in the process to conclude that the Greek Syrizia/coalition government has folded or been cowed by the EU.
All other considerations aside: that which cannot be paid will not be paid. Whether a game of extend and pretend or instigation of another more sinister subterfuge against the Greek citizenry remains to be seen. This is far from over and settled with respect to Greece and more importantly with respect to the other more highly indebted debtor nations...
Fuck, yeah, I would play for time and send a secret team to Moscow for a deal.
The Tylers do not speak with one voice and the fighting commenters even less so
Yes. The Tylers are DECENT JOURNALISTS. There is no recognizable, coherent agenda.
Thank God for that. Freedom of the Press, baby. Yeah!!!
They must also wonder why they can't have some of the cash that the central bank created for free, right out of thin air.
"It didn't cost you anything...why not hand it over?"
Well
perhaps this will help
The Beer Bottle Boys doing Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean"
https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/NkbZlautuUc?rel=0
Greece gets the other news should they somehow pass muster after tuesday.
The news being the ECB isn't going to buy any fucking Greek bonds when that QE gets unleashed.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-16/greek-debt-will-not-be-included...
I knew this would happen....none of these guys can say no to an open briefcase full of cash.......
It's their chronic weakness...
Or a toolbox full of nail guns.
or having their family killed, death by planecrash etc
Seem a lot of people are having opinion of what take place, but maybe not really what is happen.
Maybe wait a bit for next move.
There is NO light at the end of this tunnel...
There is, but there are a pile of dead bodies in the way.
"if voting made a difference then they wouldn't let us do it"
-Mark Twain
I just thought the name VarouFAKis was a giveaway and plus the fact he is an economessed and possibly a chosenite.
I'm not surprised in the least by this outcome.
So true:
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."
- Lord Acton
So storm the castle and lynch the fuckers. What's the problem?
no balls is the problem,,,no balls any where, no balls any more, people now walk around with their anus wide open.
Back in the late 80s, anyone in the corporate world was introduced to the concept of change management. It only took a little while to realize that the only thing that didn't change was Management. Then it was outsourcing and downsizing. Neither affected the executives. Glad i left that shit behind.
Merger, acquisition, consolidation...all very polite synonyms for hollowing out and destroying once viable businesses.
From Spitzer:
“The Euro was designed to allow honest defaults. Because separate country defaults would not devalue the hell out of the currency. Similar to how Detroit defaulted but did not devalue the dollar. And with the non nation state ECB, they took the presses away from the politicians.”
The U.S. direct spends into disaster zones. Remember Katrina? Also, in the U.S. people are mobile, not so in Europe. So, in Europe economic imbalance is not settled with emigration. The Euro is a disaster. And why should unique countries dissolve for some sort of international banker goal?
Spitzer’s narrative does not approach reality. Here’s how it really goes:
1)
Greece types up a sovereign bond.
2)
Greece gives this bond to a private bank to then create a Credit Euro
3)
The bond is a debt instrument temporarily held at the bank.
4)
Credit Euros are spent by Greek Government, usually into their Oligarchical political class, this to curry favor.
5)
Credit Euro’s enter the Greek Money supply. These Euros, then leave the country in trade for a BMW or some other good.
6)
Former Greek credit Euros become savings in Germany typically, since it exports more than it imports and the difference is made up by Euros.
7)
The former Greek debt instrument may then vector to a German private bank as it can be drawn there due the banks new Capital position. Or, the Debt instrument could have been there initially. We know that many of the Greek Debt instruments are now housed at Swiss Banks.
8)
Greek money supply has no Euros to satisfy the growing demand of usurious debt instruments. Principle + Interest > P always.
9)
Greek then issues another debt instrument and rolls over interest and principle of the original. This makes debt demands go exponential. The new credit Euro’s then are spent into Greek money supply at #4, starting the cycle again.
There is no feedback in this system preventing exponential debts and bad channeling (path). Credit as money always demands more from the future, and the Euro system has no circuit breakers to deal with its inherent bad design. Greece allowed their debts to point outside of their law. Greece subordinated themselves to international private credit.
An independent sovereign currency can be devalued. A proper money system will signal and give feedback. Clearly, the private credit Euro does not signal, does not have feedback, and has no political mechanisms for erasing onerous debts.
The Euro should be shit-canned. A country that does not have its own money is not a country. A bancor system could be used to allow goods trade without FX manipulations.
Europe can become a trading block using independent currencies.
www.sovereignmoney.eu
8) Greek money supply has no Euros to satisfy the growing demand of usurious debt instruments. Principle + Interest > P always.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would be the case even without interest. If the money supply were fixed then nobody would be able to save. The symbiotic travesty is that the hole digger depends on the hole filler and vice versa.
Quite easy. Tranches are back in fashion, 1,2,3. Leaving links live so you can see sources. Enjoy.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/20/ubs-bonds-idUSL5N0VQ3BU20150220
http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/premier-tiers-impot-revenu-quelle-sauce-serez-mange-cette-annee-quand-viendra-solde-thomas-carbonnier-2006833.html
http://jordantimes.com/jedco-eu-launch-2nd-tranche-of--grant--to-finance-jsmpiis-last-phase
Distribution of the funds of the 2st tranche among partner-banks | as of 20/22/2015
http://www.damu.kz/258
As of 22.02.2015 the total amount of funds utilized by STBs considering redistribution and revolver-based issue reached 268.3 bln.tenge. This amount was distributed among 3960 borrowers. The average loan amount equaled 90.3 mln. tenge while the average loan term reached 39 months; average interest rate was 11% . 5004 jobs were created and maintained.
http://www.damu.kz/260
This resembles DNC. Obama, and all that money thrown to create 5,004 jobs. If you invested. Nice job. /sarc
______________________________________________________________________________
Difficult road lies ahead, warns Greek PM Alexis Tsipras – Irish Independent
http://breakingnewstoday.net/difficult-road-lies-ahead-warns-greek-pm-alexis-tsipras-irish-independent/
There's your proof right there. Unelected financial and IMF officials in Europe have more power over a member nation than that nations own people or government do. Banks rule baby. The Banks RULE....
When governments signed up to join the Euro they sold out their own citizens and turned them over to be nothing more than chattle and debt serfs. Bonded to a lifetime of taxed labour.
Welcome to the Matrix
CDO's to BTO's, Goldman Sachs.
http://www.finance-innovation.org/risk09/work/1356573.pdf
‘
‘
‘
It’s like watching water run downhill, but nobody watching, seems to know where it’s going to wind up.
At the bottom, you ƒµç?¡?? idiots. Except this bottom is gonna be a doozy.
The Greeks, the common men, when they know they are at least being lied to—And the common man expects a lot of the time, just not all of the time.—whether this is the deal that must be done or not, hate being lied to, all the time, or at least on the big stuff.
So what will they do? They move to a party, no matter what, that at least say what they mean, and mean what they, and keep their word.
You will see the rise of the Golden Dawn Nazi party in Greece, as they will be the ones to at least keep their word.
Mark. My. Words.
•?•
V-V
I wonder how many Liberty tools, AKs and Glocks, the Greeks have?!
They might want to start getting them out of hiding, and cleaned and oiled.
The banksters need to repay us.
How does one say "guillotine" in Greek?
Ha. That's easy: "Guillotine," since it is a French word.
You had me there for a moment!
Me thinks that it is said Kerchunkenplop machine.
Yes I believe that is how one says it.
Yes. Bring out that ol' kerchunkenplop machine. There is a bankster making a getaway.
Hell that may even be a good job for ISIS, POST COLLAPSE, since the Obamanation State Department believes they need employment....
We can hire them, post collapse, to take care of the Banksters. Guillotines are too quick.
Gold. That is all.
Gold, Bit-Chez!
Greece and the U.S. are among the five FATTEST counties in the world. Greece is No 1. More eating than doing in both countries but the U.S. can print more money and donuts. For now.
Apparently there is only one way for the Greek people to save themselves. They must haul out the guillotines and off the heads of the two traitors who turned their backs on the people who elected them.
Clearly this is the only way they can make those they elect refuse to obey the NWO globalist predators-that-be. Apparently even the dynamic duo, who seemed to want to do the right thing, didn't have the balls to... do the right thing. Which is:
100% DEFAULT
100% DEFAULT
100% DEFAULT
As someone who has lived my life guided almost exclusively by long term plans and considerations, I just can't comprehend why almost NOBODY can bring themselves to do the right thing. I mean... nobody aware of world events can possibly be blind to the game being played by the predators-that-be at this point in history. And so, no possible excuse exists to REFUSE TO PLAY, which means, refuse to be slaves to those utterly evil, corrupt, diabolical human predators who demand everyone support their fraudulent status-quo.
The Greek people had better haul out those guillotines and cut off those two heads. Then get two new heads, point to the heads in the basket and say in no uncertain terms, you will be next if you do not default, and eliminate that debt, and get us out from under the foot of the neo-jack-booted thugs who control the EU.
Either that or totally wise up, take over all government facilities, and officially declare Greece a "government free zone". Now THAT would be a step ahead. And the best example for the rest of the world.
Oh, and PS: make Greece a bank-free zone too, because the apparently banks are the major or entire justification for folding. For practical purposes, the banks are the globalist NWO headquaters.
This happens when people don't look carefully at the Problem, the Enemy, the Background, the Symptoms, the Causes, the Systems involved, the Influences on the Systems, the Interest Groups, and the level of Freedom of Press and True History.
They failed to see what the Mandate for the Government was and make sure that the Leaders understood both the Systems Analysis and the mandate that resulted.
They probably knew who the Enemy was, but then didn't have access the the Politician Celebrities who were their new leaders.
-------------------------------
--- Teeth's EU Dream Anthem --
-------------------------------
- It is 1 Minute to Midnight: Neo-Feudal Debt Slavery & nuke war
- Problem is Bankers, Politicians, Lawyers & Judges
- Failure of Self Regulation of Bankers, Politicians, Lawyers & Judges
- EU Constitution Usurps Sovereignty, Gone are Budget Powers, Legislative Powers, War Powers, and the Wealth, Assets, and Intellectual Base needed to make member state Decisions and chose their future
- Money has taken over the Government, Banking, Universities, Science
- European Community Dream is over, Corruption is the same in all Countries now, but the future is held by few powerful, wealthy, Elite
- Old American Dream may serve as basis for new Country someday
-------------------------------
--- Teeth's EU Dream Anthem --
-------------------------------
Repost: Here is proof who is the Power of the NWO:
December 2014 saw a Record, a New Record on a Long Trend in US Long Term Treasuries held by Foreign Countries.
- 2014 LT Treasuries held by Foreigners Total = $6.153 Trillion
- 2013 LT Treasuries held by Foreigners Total = $4.9 Trillion
I think this represents not only Hegemony over the world, but a concerted Strategy to implement a world Government based on Fealty to the State as ultimate authority through corporatism & finance, military protection for world trade, Open Border Treaties, Free Trade Treaties, and the Financial power of the USA & European Allies... which will merge into alliances with Asia, South America, and Australia.
Remember to add China and Hong Kong together for China Total.
http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/shl2002r.pdf
http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/shla2013r.pdf
(http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfh.txt)
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/intinv/iip_glance.htm
Last Data is from December 2014.
Belgium 2002 = $10.8 B, then 2013 = $163 B, Today $335 B
Bermuda 2002 = $14 B, then 2013 = $94 B, Today ??
Cayman Islands 2002 = $10.7 B, then 2013 = $66 B, Today ??
Canada 2002 = $8.4 B, then 2013 = $46.6 B, Today $69 B
China 2002 = $95 B, then 2013 = $1,272 B, Today $1244 B
France 2002 = $11 B, then 2013 = $42.4 B, Today $79.2 B
Germany 2002 = $38 B, then 2013 = $54 B, Today $72.7 B
Hong Kong 2002 = $37 B, then 2013 = $89 B, Today $172.6 B
India 2002 = $5.2 B, then 2013 = $56.6 B, Today $83 B
Ireland 2002 = $6 B, then 2013 = $91 B, Today $138.6 B
Japan 2002 = $260 B, then 2013 = $1,023 B, Today $1231 B
Luxemburg 2002 = $20.2 B, then 2013 = $107 B, Today $172 B
Mexico 2002 = $16.7 B, then 2013 = $52.7 B, Today $84.8 B
Norway 2002 = $5 B, then 2013 = $74 B, Today $81.6 B
Philippines 2002 = $3 B, then 2013 = $36 B, Today $40.6 B
Poland 2002 = $7 B, then 2013 = $31 B, Today $27 B
Russia 2002 = $3 B, then 2013 = $138 B, Today $86 B
Singapore 2002 = 19.4 B, then 2013 = $82 B, Today $110 B
Switzerland 2002 = $28 B, then 2013 = $157 B, Today $190 B
Taiwan 2002 = $0 B, then 2013 = $183 B, Today $175 B
Turkey 2002 = $2 B, then 2013 = $18 B, Today $77 B
United Kingdom = $45.7 B, then 2013 = $130.6 B, Today $189 B
Most people aren't like you honest. They see the short term pain and look for someone to blame. So, the politicians try to avoid cutting out the cancer cause it'll bleed and hurt when they do. Most people don't plan, they just go through things day to day. I plan, I try to look into the future but I realize I'm the weirdo, the outcast. Yep, greeks need to default, euro needs to break up (it will), usa needs to break up (it won't) and Rothshilds will use china to decimate the us and then model our governence on chinas. Only prob with their plan is they'll stick out in china and asians are pretty smart. Hahaha, I won't feel sorry for them.
Varoufakis finally got an education outside of school although he looks like he and Tsipras are more concerned with being celebrities. I don't know who is backing them but they are looking like fronts for the same old oligarchy. Greeks invented drama.
I don't know who is backing them...
Soros.
George Soros is what I have read and heard.
'government' is agreeing to get fucked by that guy rather than the other guy.
.
Makes sooooo much sense.
Each nations banking system does seem to be everyone's Achilles heel.
The global banking system has become a black hole sucking everything in.
We need to find a way to let the old system collapse and replace it with something else.
US citizens are now on the line for derivatives losses.
When the first big derivatives domino falls, US citizens are going to be in the same position as the Greeks are now.
Seems a solution, like in Novorossia is needed in Athens.
Greece secured a bridge loan to avoid messy default, but it will secure a clean default like the one Germany had after WW2. Anyone who's followed Varoufakis for long enough will know he hates the Euro, but is smart enough to know what a pre-announced devaluation will mean to the new Drachma. The reforms will most certainly target tax-dodging oligarchs, and not continue austerity. Anyone who thinks Varoufakis will implement austerity, is being more cynical than rational. Varoufakis' game plan, again, in his own words, is to build an example for controlled debt cancellation to be followed across Europe, and if it doesn't succeed, only then will they resort to the nuclear option of a debt moratorium and grexit. That's my guess anyway.
I hope you are right.
This is the man a few years ago when he was free to talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwAClUrhrek
As far as I am aware it is not even a done deal yet.
Syriza has to go back on Monday with the reforms it is willing to implement ...... another source of disagreement?
Also, Syriza may realise it needs a few months to make a plan to avoid a plunge into chaos.
Or, it may be busy on the phone this weekend to Russia and China seeking alternative funding.
If one wants to deal one has to have something to offer. And not to forget, Greece has deceived, Agreed with the help of all the other EU bandits, and not to forget the have piled up 320 billions of debt. By any means they get what they voted for. That's the only good thing I can get out of that.
That deescalated quickly.
With his left-wing leadership pilloried by German conservatives, Tsipras insisted that Friday night's last-minute agreement canceled austerity commitments and dispensed with the "troika" - European and IMF inspectors loathed by many Greeks.
"Yesterday we took a decisive step, leaving austerity, the bailouts and the troika behind," he said in a televised statement to the Greek nation. "We won a battle, not the war. The difficulties, the real difficulties ... are ahead of us."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/21/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0LO0...
I don't think so - Varoufakis needs time to Grexit and set up the new currency. Wednesday was just an impossible deadline. He's taking the money today to buy time to do the jump. They've have liked to stay in the Euro, but he'll know now that's impossible. I'd be very surprised if Tsipiras and Varoufakis are capitulating, but they clearly can't make the plan public or the ECB would pull the rug today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
Greece has two alternatives. Remain in the Eurozone and face a debt that can not possibly be repaid and under neverending austerity, or 2) to leave the Euro, declare all debts unpayable, nationalise all banks, create its own money based entirely on the productivity of its people, and set up a barter system to deal with international trades. This is essentially what Hitler did in the 30s, and it sparked the German economy to incredible heights. Of course, it is also why the Zionist bankers declared war on Germany in 1933.
Greece's solution is also the world's solution to free it from the internaitonal bankers who now call all the shots.
It's not Siriza that will do that, but rather Golden Dawn.
(That's why the Elite fomented a coup against them.)
".....create its own money based entirely on the productivity of its people"
Theres the problem. It's a nation of people dependent on government handouts that flat out refuse to do for themselves. If the Greeks were willing to be productive we wouldnt be having this conversation in the first place. They can print Drachmas or whatever but it will be worthless. Would you buy Greek bonds? Of course not, thats why Greece needs to stay in the EU. Nobody will ever loan them money, and they refuse to live within their means.
look debt is not just a greek problem now is it?
here is one answer never to be seen in MSM print. (pun) PRINT your taxes allocate printed euros to each tax account to paid in full. then the debt comes off the backs of citizens and your economy will benefit. for those who follow ZH we know all central banks print debt that is never paid off, just rolled over. What would happen if a country paid it's peoples tax debt at the same time? austerity measures would be met.
this solution applies to USA and much of europe. silly outrageous sure but then fiat is so rational..LOL
"the central bank has a bank-note printing facility called IETA. Built in 1941, the Attica plant today is outfitted with "state-of-the-art machinery," according to the Bank of Greece's website. But IETA's printing in recent years has been limited. It has been one of five or six countries responsible for printing batches of €10 notes, according to the ECB."
They Choked!.....
Im reading else where that if you read the fine print...THERE WAS NO DEAL AT ALL....
"What the large print giveith, the small print takeith away"
"What the large print giveith, the small print takeith away"
The Greeks continue to borrow until the EU refuses to lend.
So far-left couldn't cut the mustard. Is it now time for the Greeks to try far-right?
for you left and right is established based on Hoover and Marx...for us it is based on Aristotle and Socrates. It does not compute !
Does repaying your debts and not being a deadbeat compute? What did Socrates say about fiscal responsibility?
Eventually, bail2in with junk bond swaps, as simple as that. The gov will announce this as a great deal for their people.
let me help you in understanding us...in our myths lies the truth...in our acts lies ours way...how did Persues killed Medusa?...yes you quested right...he let her take a view of her self.
20 days is not a long time to achive that much is it?
Greeks should Maidan the Syriza
Maidan is a customary activity to people and races that eat raw meat, rape women and enjoy brutal activities, we the Greeks resolve our issues with games, music, alcohol and sex that is not necessarily exclusive to opposite sexes...suggest something in these lines and I will happily take to my brethren as a suggestion.
Spiro: I read sometime ago that in ancient Greece it was traditional for old men to 'take under their wing' young boys and introduce them to the kind of practices that would now land any one in jail. Can you confirm this or is it just fallacy.
The concept of boyfriend comes from here, in ancient Greece it was an older men "taking care" of a younger innocent boy...
Today of course boyfriend apply to hetero couple.
Now I understand why you get fucked behind all the time.
Perhaps it is time for the Greeks to make the pitchers' ass the catchers'.
Turnabout is fair play, afterall, and since the Greeks are not strictly Heterosexuals maybe the Syriza needs to invest in some K-Y Jelly with some of that bribe money they took...and perhaps some Preparation H...
They may be tight ends right now but after a thousand buttfuckings by the Greek Public they will be wide receivers as it is shoved through the crease and into the end zone for da score.
It might be a good idea to wait untill the 4 months grace given to the new Greek government has expired. That gives me time to make a little money before the SHTF and the general meltdown starts. June/July is the time to watch for, when the western world will panic and will go round and round in circles shouting 'we are all doomed'. Bankers will be throwing themselves out of high rise windows and there will be no one to catch them. 'Splat'
MICHAEL NOONAN, HIS IDEAS, HIS HOPES AND HIS ILK ARE ALL PART OF THE PROBLEM.
BALANCED COMMENT ON THE EVENTS IN GREECE IS SOMETHING YOU WILL NOT GET FROM NOONAN.
Be clear where Noonan is coming from. If Greece is seen to have gained concessions his Government will be accused of failing the Irish people by agreeing to dump the banks' debts on the Irish people.
greece has nothing you say..well santorini comes to mind, and blue seas and good climate, add in a bit of history, and like many areas of the world ..people come to your land to enjoy all that stuff they don't have.
what we are talking about here is the maintance of elite wealth by any means ..it is sad to think that a countries economic health is tied to a iv line bleeding it out.
All these extensions and talks are to calm markets for the Predators to exit. Greek People are in for the slow boils. Might as well walk before more devastatation and default at the consumer levels.
Any legit numbers on public polling since the announcement or other proxies including money transfers/withdrawals? Didn't see any since the announcement has been made last week.
The Greeks could have lived within their means. THEY chose the path of huge debt. And soon they will renege on it. Only way it can go,
Yes. BOTH borrowers and lenders are to blame.
Mafia give money to marks they know can never repay....thus they buy them.
germany and its cohorts gave a few hundred billion to Greece knowing they could never repay it.....thus they bought Greece (they thought).
The debt was not forced on Greece, they voted in governments that continued irresponsible spending that serviced debt with more debt. Then they ran to the polls and replaced the government that agreed to pay some of the debt back with communist rabble rousers that promised them more free money.. Why didnt they run to the polls and replace the government that was spending and borrowing out of control, like they replaced the government that wanted to pay it back?
But they were forced to take the bailout. A bailout that went directly to German and French banks. These banks were irresponsible lenders, but they were saved and made whole. Why are you so subservient to paternal control?
It always amazes me how fools like you always blame those with the least amount of economic/political power for this mess.
they voted for a lying opportunistic communist into office who said anything and everything to everybody to get elected, with no ability to recognize reality let alone deliver on unrealistic promises...and expected something other than disappointment? Greeks truly are delusional.
Sad to see so many of us again disappointed. We are labeled as pessimists, conspiracy theorists, and deluded dreamers alienated from our own species. But to the contrary, it is hope and visions of a freer future that sustains us. So, i start another day with all my friends at ZH; the best anti-depressant on the market.
Well, now that the Syriza bubble has burst, we can all get back to our regularly scheduled program of austerity.
Politics as usual. They will say anything to get elected but seldom do what they say.
This is like the debt ceiling debate in the states. Its always alot of hype, but then when all is said and done, the ceiling gets raised. Same for Greece. Alot of hype about leaving the eurozone but then they always take the deal at the last minute. At some point, maybe years from now, Greece will find someone to represent them who will hold the line and not cave.
monday monday ..a greek paper on what they will do to calm the EU. somehow it will not be enough, then chaos, expect the un expected. the game is afoot..get those printing presses working mr greek president.
While the current agreement supposedly lasts 4 months, there are several sub-deals in it that are still open for negotiation including some to happen as early as Monday. If you have been paying attention, you will have heard that the Greek leaders keep shifting their statements all the time. I do not think they will roll over on this as easily as the other posts here. This deal could collapse as early as Monday
I think Greece simply realized that on Friday that there is no real deal possible and walked out with a deal that would buy them some time to set up alternatives more favorable to Greece. The rhetoric by the rest of the EU does not help by them saying Greece got nothing - when in fact Greece got out of a potential serious short term situation with its banks and gets four months to plan an orderly Grexit.
If nothing else, Greece gets a chance to do the Grexit threat all over again in 4 months.
Elegant assessment .... it's also called .... "dando patadas al bote" .... yes, KICKING DA CAN !
Why don´t the Greeks go back and ride their donkey a little bit!
As part of any bailout .... all debt .... public and private .... held by Greeks .... should be forgiven .... a debt Jubilee .... for all Greece's debtors !
Varoufakis continues his masterful performance. He appears engaged, positive, constructive and optimistic - in a way that the european public can associate with. He says this agreement was a (first) step in the right direction. He got 4 months grace (negotiating) period and agreement that the 4.5% growth target is unrealistic. In the coming days when he goes in front of the cameras to explain that while we (good) greeks presented concrete big picture proposals to fight corruption and tax evasion the (bad) eurocrats are insisting on further cutting back the 600euro/month to old age pensioners - thus resulting in a break up in negotiations.
The (current breed of) eurocrats have already lost, they just don't know it yet (some are suspecting it - especially the portugese and spanish who were 100% against any negotiation with the greeks - starting to realise that the public mood is fed up with the (perceived as) german enforced austerity.
I wish it was as you say. On the other hand may be Syriza men and their extended families were threatened with death or mutilation by EU mafiosos or completely sold our Greek army, 800 pound gorilla in the room nobody is talking about. The extortion and brutality is EU way, that's why they support only as national leaders CIA agents or documented traitors of their own nations.
Consider Orban of Hungary, as he was threatened by EU mafia as soon as he uttered word about his nation vital interests. EU is a totalitarian regime with organization equal to Nazi Germany with simulated democratic chaos, and illusion of diversity of uniform political thought. Roman Holy empire of German nation plus 400 millions slaves. That's what Syriza is trying to tell us. Now they are waiting for Roman Legions to do their job.
scatha, a dark view my friend..let us hope people who are in the greek Army have evolved with the rest of us, otherwise they are like the guards at auschwitz. Ghordius would like to think you are wrong.
I wish I was wrong but it's opinion of majority right now, rational conclusion based on facts we know now.
Look at:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41071.htm
The only difference between us, (america) and them (greece), we could print or compute our own money to infinity to sustain our debt.
You are correct. Hell, there is a constitutional provision that would enable the United States to payoff nearly half of that $18 trillion debt by next Friday.
Or to put it another way "We Went Through Two Months Of Agony To Realize We Still Owe The Money"
Even if Greece .... paid off all their debt .... (muted chuckles) .... they would still be like the Palestinians .... and the Russians .... they still don't make anything .... even banana republics export banana's .... or natural gas in Russia's case ?
I have been enjoying .... Costco's imported jumbo stuffed (pimento or almonds) green olives .... from Greece .... Tassos brand .... one kilo jar .... masa drenada .... 605 g .... $5 for pimento .... $6 por almond .... send Merkel a couple of cases !
there is only one way out of this. guns guns guns. Take your licks and fight for freedom or you deserve what you get.
Today’s Universal Truth: What Ordinary Americans Think Of Elections: "We Went Through Months of Agony To Realize We Are Still A Debt Colony"
How many jars of Pimento Olives it takes to pay 240 billion Euros?....and who is going to eat all these olives?........
About 60 billion jars ....or 600 jars for each "Jar Head" (In WWII GI's called German soldiers Krauts and Jar Heads !) ? (oops, my bad .... Jar Heads are our US Marines ?)
Revolutions are like a proctoscope. You must go VERY deep in order to be effective. Just ask Obola
Like Castro's colostomy bag ?
A month here a month there. Greece obtains several more months for their parties, they will never pay anything. I will not get EUROS for anything in the world. Spain should do the same and stop paying. EUROS=.81 cents of a dollar!!!
Think that the Syriza Party folded like a cheap suit? Then you haven't really been paying attention. Mike Whitney says it best:
Varoufakis’s Revolutionary Plan for Europe - Don't Tell Anyone in Berlin
If you haven’t been following developments in the Greek-EU standoff, you’re really missing out. This might be the best story of the year. And what makes it so riveting, is that no one thought that little Greece could face off with the powerful leaders of the EU and make them blink. But that’s exactly what’s happened. On Monday, members of the Eurogroup met with Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, to decide whether they would accept Greece’s terms for an extension of the current loan agreement. There were no real changes to the agreement. The only difference was semantics, that is, the loan would not be seen as a bailout but as “a transitional stage to a new contract for growth for Greece”. In other words, a bridge to a different program altogether.
In retrospect, Varoufakis’s strategy was pure genius, mainly because it knocked the EU finance ministers off balance and threw the process into turmoil. After all, how could they vote “thumbs down” on loan package that they had previously approved just because the language was slightly different? But if they voted “thumbs up”, then what?
Well, then they would be acknowledging (and, tacitly, approving) Greece’s determination to make the program less punitive in the future. That means they’d be paving the way for an end to austerity and a rethink on loan repayment. They’d also be conceding that Greece’s democratically-elected government had the right to alter the policies of the Eurogroup. How could they let that happen?
But, then again, how could they vote it down, after all, it was basically the same deal. As Varoufakis pointed out in a press conference on Monday:
“We agree to the terms of our loan agreements to all our creditors”. And we have “agreed to do nothing to derail the existing budget framework during the interim period.”
See? It’s the same deal. [.........]
You can read the rest of the article here: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article49522.html
Best story of the year .... runner up .... the phone directory ?
I note you've been a member for 3 weeks 2 days.
You're going to need a bigger library if you're going to try to keep up.
...and who really cares how long someone has been on this 'board', to have an opinion? are you saying one has to be a 'member' for a certain time period to acertain 'facts' properly?
you sound like a child when you write such things finger...
It'd be a better story if it wasn't a sequel.
The dilemma that Syriza has been forced to face is this:
Bankruptcy is the only solution. The debts plus accumulated interest will never be repaid without the wholesale surrender of all national assets to the creditors.
But...
There will be no money left with which to survive after bankruptcy.
Unless and until the Greeks can figure out how they can survive on a pay-as-you-go(all cash) basis, they will all starve or the stronger will devour the weaker until a new balance is achieved.
Russia and Turkey may help in this matter. Both countries could absorb some of what the Greeks can produce. But that will not be enough.
Capital controls and rationing -severe, at least initially- is the only way out. This is "austerity". Self-imposed instead of IMF-imposed; but austerity nonetheless. But-unlike the current conditions, with its interminable impoverishment of Greece, the self-imposed impoverishment would come to an end, once the balance of revenues and expenses have been achieved.
looks like a gambit to me. syriza was in no position to grexit. it would have been complete chaos. they just bought themselves four months to figure out how to transition the national budget and set up the drachma, if they can't negotiate a reasonable haircut with the troika.
so let me see if i get this:
1) The greek goverment borrows billons (debt issue bonds)
2) The greek goverment squanders all this money.
3) The greek citizens don't want to look into the mirror and admit they support the greek govemrent crooks.
How about the arrest the politicians in greece who wasted all theat money as a start???
shaten, get up to speed on what "money" is then you can ask that question.
The trouble is, everyone has gotten so used to instant gratification that we now react instantaneously to everything as if it were the endgame.
We have been 'trained' to this mindset. Especially here in the US. We think that everything ought to wrap-up within the one-hour time slot. All things that happen are seen as directly connected to the dominant plot, all things lead directly to the conclusion.
Because I KNOW that real life doesn't work that way, I am reluctant to see this as the end of the show. Those with the mind-set that assumes all things must lead directly to the 'yes/no' answer at the end of the hour will now walk way as the credits roll, thinking, "Well, I always knew it would end that way..."
But I'm staying in my seat. Because I have a feeling that rather than being over, this drama is just getting started. Part 1 may have concluded, but the next installment is soon to begin...
Betting correctly on what will happen next is the only true measure of whether you understand something. I'm betting that monday night/tuesday we will have a list of reforms by Syriza, which favors incrasing revenue through targeting tax dodgers, instead of more austerity. There may be some token quasi-austerity to make sure the deal goes through, like "freezing wages or government-sector hiring". The plan will favor privatization of the port of Piraeus and other things Varoufakis is already in favor of, but will stop privatization sell-off of the lottery and tourist assets. The creditors won't like the plan, but they may accept it. If they do, we will have four months of tranche payments, during which time Germany will try to take control by nagging greece to death, while Greece prepares for several routes of action:
- a clean debt write-off via debt swap (similar to Ecuador) without grexit
- a messy default with a debt moratorium, without grexit
- a messy default with a debt moratorium + grexit
Germany can afford a debt write-off on Greece, but it can't afford to allow the example to be followed by Italy, which is the core of the problem. My guess is, to avoid that, they'll go for something like what happened in Bulgaria after 1996 or Ecuador under Correa. For two-three months Greece will comply with the plan. Then they'll propose an obscure debt swap deal. Not a full on default, but a debt swap mixed with partial debt moratorium that ends up in 20-30% debt to GDP ratio. There will be several quiet years of falling debt to GDP. Example:
https://www.quandl.com/SGE/ECUGDG.png?&dataset%5Bwidth%5D=450&dataset%5B...
http://www.bulgarianproperties.com/news-images/big/3685_1.jpg
(note: Ecuador also uses a foreign currency, like Greece, and Bulgaria has a currency peg. In both cases, the currency peg survived.)
I wouldn't bet on what Germany's reaction to that proposal will be, though. They seem beholden to the oligarch creditors now, and may do the irrational thing and ban any write-off whatsoever, threatening grexit. It's weird that the radical left-wing party is the predictable one here, and the mainstream politicians are the ones acting in a radical fashion.
Greece isnt going to do jack shit....the Money Changers will throw them a bone and they will get right back in line!
I wouldn't bet on an anti-austerity party adopting austerity, while all the world's eyes are on them, and while parties like Podemos and UKIP are about to take power and create a powerful alternative to the unelected, undemocratic order currently ruling Europe. Nobody in Europe believes the false left-right choice anymore. The power balance really is shifting, however wishful that sounds. The oligarchy will put up a fight, but anyone who knows economic history, will agree that massive defaults happen all the time, and massive pro-democratic change does happen all the time.
Austerity for whom? Answer that and you'll know why Syriza won't walk as they talk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJP1Ysx47fo
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbxZB6HYY8k
By all means, buy some Greek bonds if you're sure they won't walk as they talk :)
You can fool all the people some of the time,
and you can fool some of the people all the time,
until the time when you can’t fool any people anytime,
and then your time is up.
Take a look at this, and ask yourself if not Z-H is a trojan, a mouthpiece for MSM diguised as altermnative media
www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/02/22/poll-81-of-greeks-support-syriza-in...
What "the people" want is to keep getting handouts paid for by others without paying for the ones they've already gotten.
And with everyone knowing they won't be paying for the new ones they hope to get.
We're seeing people being weaned off the welfare state, and that's a good thing if it happens.
But it will probably degenerate into something much worse.