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The Biggest Problem For Greece Isn't Debt: It's This
"Greeks consider taxes as theft," which, among other things, explains, as WSJ reports, at the end of 2014, Greeks owed their government about €76 billion in unpaid taxes accrued over decades; the government says only €9 billion of that can be recovered, with most of the rest lost to insolvency. Syriza is now making tax collection a top priority among the measures promises the new Troika, but as one government official warned, "the Greek economy would collapse if the government were to force these people to pay taxes." The bottom line is that "normally taxes are considered the price you have to pay for a just state, but this is not accepted by the Greek mentality," and perhaps with this latest round of deference to the EU overlords, it is clear why...
Greece’s new government, scrambling to secure another tranche of short-term funding, agreed on Tuesday to make tax collection a top priority on a long list of measures. Yet previous governments have made similar promises, only to fall short. As The Wall Street Journal reports,
“Greeks consider taxes as theft,” said Aristides Hatzis, an associate professor of law and economics at the University of Athens. “Normally taxes are considered the price you have to pay for a just state, but this is not accepted by the Greek mentality.”
Indeed, for most Greeks tax evasion isn’t considered a serious crime and there is little stigma attached to getting caught, unlike in other European countries or even the U.S.
...
Kosmas, a 32-year-old chef in Athens, says his income taxes are automatically deducted from monthly paychecks. But every time he buys something and he is given an option to pay less if he doesn’t ask for a receipt, he says yes.
“It is a win-win situation,” he said. “I pay less for the products and the store pays less in taxes.”
...
The government’s tax-revenue shortfall in January alone was 23% below its €4.5 billion target for the month.
Last week, the government outlined plans to forgive up to 50% of individuals’ tax arrears, a sign would make good on its campaign rhetoric.
Syriza would risk a popular uprising by the very people who put it into power if it were to back away from those policies and get tough on taxes, political analysts warn.
Even within the government’s own ranks, officials say Syriza can’t risk tougher enforcement.
The reason isn’t just political, but economic.
...
“The Greek economy would collapse if the government were to force these people to pay taxes,” said one senior government official.
* * *
And it seems they are already in trouble...
Greece admitted on Wednesday it will struggle to make debt repayments to the IMF and the European Central Bank this year as Germany's finance minister voiced open doubts about Athens' trustworthiness.
A day after euro zone finance ministers agreed to a four-month extension of a financial rescue for the currency bloc's most heavily indebted member, Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis gave a frank assessment of Greece's financial position.
"We will not have liquidity problems for the public sector. But we will definitely have problems in making debt payments to the IMF now and to the ECB in July," he told Alpha Radio.
* * *
More broken promises to come...
Of course the answer to Greece's problems is simple:
All Greece needs to get an unlimited IMF bailout is to invite some "pro-Russian separatists" to launch a civil war
— zerohedge (@zerohedge) February 25, 2015
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Please, in the current global corporate/feudal/crony system, this is a global issue.
why don't the greeks rehab some of those old buildings. that'll get the economy moving...
This is what happens in a something for nothing country.
Are the Libs paying attention ?
Dear Yanis,
No one gives a fuck about what you have to say anymore.
Regards,
Planet Earth
Finally. Tyler Durden gets it. The problem of Greece is ... the Greek people. And nothing else.
That is why showing Greece the door will be the best thing for EU.
Be careful what you wish for.
In economics, the Laffer curve is one possible representation of the relationship between rates of taxation and the hypothetical resulting levels of government revenue. The Laffer curve claims to illustrate the concept of taxable income elasticity—i.e., taxable income will change in response to changes in the rate of taxation. It postulates that no tax revenue will be raised at the extreme tax rates of 0% and 100% and that there must be at least one rate where tax revenue would be a non-zero maximum.
One potential result of the Laffer curve is that increasing tax rates beyond a certain point will be counter-productive for raising further tax revenue. A hypothetical Laffer curve for any given economy can only be estimated and such estimates are controversial. The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics reports that estimates of revenue-maximizing tax rates have varied widely, with a mid-range of around 70%.
Greeks consider taxes as theft...
All hail the Greeks!
Because it is.
Even with this example of a newly elected government changing its positions immediately after being elected, I still doubt 1 in 100 people will see through the false left/right divide and conquer paradigm.
You are fucked because of the ignorance of your fellow man.
Idiocracy.
Actually theft implies that the victim is unaware of the act until after the fact. Robbery on the other hand is:
Law. the felonious taking of the property of another from his or her person or in his or her immediate presence, against his or her will, by violence or intimidation.I would push it further and identify taxes as armed robbery unless you live in a country where they don't send armed men to your residence for missing a payment(lol).
Thanks for the distinction. So it's theft through inflation and robbery through taxes?
Am I the only one who finds that chart aspirational?
Inflation is fraud and taxation is extortion and/or robbery. The word "theft" is sometimes used as a broad term for all of the above and others.
Here's an economic quiz question and answer:
Q: What does the government do if raising taxes produces less revenue?
A: Raise taxes.
They obviously didn't raise them enough.
They have a budget that they voted on and we have to fund errr..... invest in the budget.
"Greeks consider taxes as theft...
All hail the Greeks!"
But they still want government.
Do they?
I never realized I was Greek.
"Greeks consider taxes as theft".
What if the Greeks have it right, and we taxpayers have it wrong?
You also have to understand the ridiculously enormous tax burden the Greeks live under too.
Perfect example popped up on A/C Cobra kit car forum I was reading through.
These kits can be built for $30-50,000 including donor car Mustang in the US.
By the time this poor shumck in Greece finished laying out all the import duties, registration taxes, VAT taxes, and large displacement engine taxes he was up to almost $175,000 to $200,000 in total cost for a $40,000 "kit" car.
Getting to skimp around sales tax for purchases can save you up to 23% !
damn! i personally would just turbo the factory oem stang. cobras engines are built with forged internals and they love forced induction.
And that is the point. No one minds paying their government tithe if that tithe is fair and used justly. Like the Greeks, the US fails on both counts and their mentality will more and more come to be our mentality.
For example, is 40% of income a fair amount to pay? Can anyone justify that? And when your tax dollars are "lent" to George Kaiser and Solyndra, which miraculously then are paid out to him and his workers and a portion recycled back into Barack Obama's campaign fund, and then the company says "oops, looks like all that money was lost sorry taxpayers" and they seek bankruptcy protection can one really say your tax dollars are being used well? I do not think so.
5
Vote down!
0And that is the point. No one minds paying their government tithe if that tithe is fair and used justly.
This is where I learn who here are really libertarian and who are just left/right republicrats wanting more of the pie on their side. NO ONE MINDS... speak for yourself. I don't mind paying for something as long as I get to say when and where and what i pay for and if I get to return it or complain about the product or just decide not to buy it next time. With government none of this applies and that is where I have to depart from this mentality. A voluntary government could be had here if the people were finally educated enough to conclude that we could have a wonderful system that was not based upon armed robbery. The only thing a federal government is good for is for policing our borders and prosecuting the few real criminals who actually destroy human life or property......... where there is a REAL victim. Both of those functions are being absolutely FAILED by our government so the money I pay is absolutely being wasted and pilfered and I don't care who I vote for next month or next year it is going to remain the same because of all the corruption. The other function of a government is to regulate and coin the money which according to the constitution , last I checked, was only to be gold and silver based. FAIL again.
Other functions of government can be handled at the state and local government or can go private. You want to go to the doctor..... pay for it. You want to drive on that nice road pay for it............. When are people going to understand that everything the government pays for is first taken from a productive citizen?
Well, I guess I can continue to talk and thank God for the grandmother who taught me. Not that it's going to get me anywhere but.
Well, I am not speaking for others, merely making a statement of fact I believe would be corroborated if the votes were tallied on that point. But you are right, I should not have spoken categorically. I should have said "Almost no one.." That way I would not include you in the set. I likely agree with you on most things, though in a dangerous world you cannot escape some spending on defense (by which I mean actual defense as in defense from invasion of our actual bit of land in what we call the western hemisphere). In which case you are almost certainly going to need a bit of tax to the feds. And again I mean a little bit. Anyway those kinds of arguments can get voluminous.
The possibility of warfare is in itself a form of theft. The theft of safety. All it would take is for a non-puppet UN to ban all forms of warfare on the global scale, as well as all forms of defense budgets and mechanized weaponry. It's ludicrous that each country on earth has to dedicate precious resources and efforts in constantly fuding a military capable of at least intimidating its neighbors...
Of course, theory and practice are worlds apart.
No.
This is where I learn who here are really anarchist and who are just this small- or that small-government statists still wanting some of the pie that is long rotten and unnecessary.
Security, prosecution and coinage are separate activities or industries that can and should be provided in the most decentralized fashion practicable. You need both division between industries and a free market within each industry (the former coming naturally with the latter). The last of your desired government function really baffles me, given that currencies can be (and have been historically) as simple as natural commodities with a spontaneously emerging standard for their form. So a currency can only suffer from having any authority attached to it, while it does not at all need any authorities as it can be something as simple as a standard for a metal composition and weight units (e.g. .9999 pure gold being the currency, troy ounces of it being the base unit and 1ozt of it being the numéraire), not to mention the more complex standards such as Bitcoin, which too work without any sort of authorities.
You don't need any government, in the traditional sense as an entity that levies (non-voluntary) taxes or combines multiple unrelated services or functions, at any level, be it county or global. Every single one of the legitimate services and functions you think of can be provided by commercial and/or cooperative entities, systems, networks, protocols, standards, etc. and there is generally no need to combine different services together either. I would go even further and challenge you to identify even a single such service or function which has not been provided outside of any government at some point in history or some place on earth.
Kit cars, eh?
My brother was involved in that through Kelmark Engineering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmark_Engineering
Yeah, but those Greek MFs don´t want to go. Because it´s so cozy to suck at the big fat tits of mother EU for free.
correction: the MFing politicians don't want to let go. the people do.
.
"Greeks consider taxes as theft..."
Hard to figure -- taking into account this Greek sentiment -- that we ZHrs aren't falling over one another in praise of this ancient Greek wisdom.
Damnation! A WHOLE NATION with the proper understanding of taxation? How do we encourage this educational breakthrough worldwide?
I knew I read "Ulysses: for a reason!
Dear WSJournalists,
We need to update our registry. Please trawl for new tax dissenters among the sheeple.
Thank you.
A lot of people in the U.S.A. lament that "Social Security" won't be there for them, and yet their wages are garnished nominally to go into the scheme. Every last one of those knows they are being ripped off. In the case of Greece, this isn't just angst. The Greek population is aging very rapidly due to decades of catastrophically low birth rates. There won't be a Greece left to pay back anything to the remaining impoverished decrepit.
lets call it what it is.........BANKSTERISM
this tired out line of propaganda keeps on getting trumpeted by the media, and it is a flat out lie. Check out the numbers -http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/ and you will see that they do indeed collect a lot of taxes in greece. Who is paying these taxes if not the people? central government revenues in greece are 45.8% of GDP (2013) - oh wait , what GDP you say? the GDP whose numbers are inflated implausibly large because it's an input to all kinds of EU GDP-indexed limits, because it's a politically sensitive number, because it's one of the key criteria in the troika strait jacket, because it's a number which everyone in this modern loony-bin of an economy hangs on day and night? the real GDP in greece is lower than this number, not higher, as a bunch of insatiably greedy politicians and economists like to spout (claiming 'black market' activity) who want narrative to justify even more extreme robbery. The greek state collects north of 60 billion euros a year in revenues - actual money paid by greeks to the state in the form of taxes - in a country where unemployment is north of 30% and where those lucky enough to have a job are making less than a thousand bucks a month.. Exactly how much more blood do they think they can get from this stone? this article and so many like it are propaganda pieces to justify the ongoing plundering of a country. all you slaves cheering it on, you will learn only too late, when you find the same monster at your own door.
You´re right, those statistics make no sense at all. That´s why i stopped reading and believing in Greek statistics a long time ago. The Greeks don´t even have a reliable database for all those numbers, heck, they didn´t even had computers in the finance ministry less than 10 years ago. And even those statistics about Greece from OECD or Eurostat make no sense too since they are based on numbers by the Greek government branches who probably rolled some dices to get them. Shows you that Greece is nothing more than a third world country and has nothing to do in the EU.
but the amount of tax collected is an actual number. The GDP itself is totally fudged, but it's fudged _upward_ so the real number is very likley even less - the implication being that these fuckers are already squeezing every last penny they possibly can get.
the continuing media line about 'greeks dont pay taxes' is an insulting lie.
now, the fact that we know that taxes are theft? yes, we do know it. Anyone who doesn't has got to have certifiably shit for brains. We don't pay because we like to , we pay for the same reason a lot of sane people do, because if you don't, goons with guns come after you.
I´m not sure if it´s the actual amount of taxes paid or if it´s just the amount that should be paid. I fear it´s the later.
oh, and something else about this article:
percentage of tax collected is a number that can be entirely made up by the ministry of finance by imagining that there is more tax due than they have collected. I have explained a lot of this before: there have been hundreds of thousands of bankruptcies in the past few years- very few of these formally through court because , who has the money to pay for lawyers and what will he gain when the case will drag a decade through the courts? Take a walk anywhere in greece in 1990, 2000, 2010, and now. you'll see the past 5 years a humongous number of shops closed up, dusty, broken windows, and worn faded 'for rent' signs _everywhere_. youll see a couple hundred thousand small family businesses have gone under. They might indeed owe some back taxes, but in greece, there is a lot of unjust 'debt' here: it costs between 3 and 6 thousand euros a year _minimum_ just to keep the paperwork to be able to have a business. This is not a tax on the business turnover, or on capital investment or depreciation or flow or whatever, this is just the minimum overhead to legally have a business. Now, lets say the economy went itno the shitter a couple years back and youre finally broke. You wanna close it down. You can't, until you pay another 2 to 3 thousand euros minimum (it can be a lot more!) in taxes and fees to shut down a business... oh wait you were broke, right? where you gonna get the 3 grand to close down the business? so you just stop operations. Go to the address, youll see the place has been empty for the past 3 or 4 years.. but on the tax office's books that is still a business, and since they havent' deregistered they owe for 2013, 2014, plus fines and interest and penalties,
that kind of fantasy 'revenue' is a lot of what is 'owed'. it looked good in previous rounds of this debt game , for greek politicians to claim 'see we have all this extra revenue that's billable, we just need to improve collection some more' ....more lies.
great post
Agree, this post seems more likely than the narrative. Much the same as in Italy. Don't have the numbers
but the system is very much the same. You have to pay taxes in advance if you have a business,also pay taxes just to be in business. Pay taxes before you do business, lol. What chance do these people have.
As an aside, also with the sanctions in place by europe to russia eg; an apple ( the ones you eat not the I ones ) producer with client in russia
is not allowed to export his produce to his russian clients. NO compensation from the italian government or the european family, but still has taxes to pay. F ck u pay me.
I cannot tell from those numbers how the "government revenues" are actually computed.
Remember that the Greek government owns substantial sectors of the economy. If those revenues are being included than the numbers are not exxactly what you might expect them to be. Including railroad revenues and expenses would make for a different picture than might be expected.
I wonder if Neo kept paying his rent after he took the red pill?
Sure he did, he just started paying it to Zion instead.
Meh, the Greeks are right, taxes are theft!
It is interesting to watch as a socialist video gaming Finance Minister gets knocked back with a dose of German reality. The dangerous moments are comming when these pols have to "explain" it to those who elected them, believing in the fantasy.
Logic and reason do not exist for them when it doesn't serve their motives. The people that they mostly sell their bullshit lies too do not think critically or with logic and reason they react on mostly basic emotions and greed due to many of them being in desperate situations and being "given a fish" instead of being "taught to fish" for multiply generations now. So the answer is that they are paying attention but they don't give a shit.
I think the answer that ZH "all greece needs to do.." will come in the form of the "golden dawn".
Who will pay for the Schutzstaffel with no taxes?
Why would anyone pay up taxes that end up financing a non-sustainable debt? The ECB conjures up 'funds' from thin air that get directed to a bank account in Luxemburg in order to sustain the illusion of 'debt' while the Greeks have to pay the interest to this 'debt' in their budget, and sell off all real public fortune (utiities, mining rights, buildings) and add 30% of any budgetary surplus to 'reduce' this mountain of 'debt'. Just by clicking a couple of zeros in a bank account, Merkel and co is buying Greece on the cheap.
U pretty much nailed it. The problem isnt the greeks inability to pay taxes, its the taxes themselves. Why would anyone finance their own destruction?
why don't the greeks rehab some of those old buildings. that'll get the economy moving...
Funny you should say that, I assume with sarcasm...
One thing that would get the US economy moving again would be for some serious commercial RE writedowns to take place. This would allow these assets to be put back into productive use, at reduced rents, rather than sitting on some bank's books at full value, yet empty and producing not one drop of revenue, products, or taxes (these silly Austrians call this "creative destruction", if memory serves...). But that would require banks to tell the truth, take losses, and perhaps even go bust, and, well, when you're systemically important (and getting mega bonuses at everyone else's expense), and when you own the CONgress, you see, that's just not gonna happen.
They should start with the Parthenon, which hasn't had a roof on it since the 1800's..
their attitude toward taxes has prevented the banks from completing their citizen asset stripping project the EU was supposed have made easier.
I believe a Land Value Tax, as promoted by Henry George http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax would solve their (and our) problems.
Yes, switch from taxing value-add (i.e., wages and profits) to taxing resource use.
Impossible to evade, 'fair' (one of government's primary functions is to defend land ownership, so why shouldn't the people monopolising a portion of the commons not pay for it?) and encourages efficient resource use.
Surprised so few people advocate it....
Why would one pay taxes if it goes directly to German banks?
Because the FREE SHIT they've been living on CAME from German banks.
And additionally the taxes of employees and workers immediately have to be removed from their paycheck by their employer.
Only the freelancers and self-employed persons can avoid paying taxes and are the ones, who contribute to this enormous amounts of tax evasion.
So the libertarians sympathizing with this seem not to understand who is profiting from tax evasion: the laywers doctors, company owners and speculators, not the average employees and workers... And the more the rich are avoiding paying taxes, the higher the tax burden of the average Joe gets.
I can't decide which is more annoying, on ZH, anymore.
The "everything is a conspiracy" crowd, or those incessant pop-up/push advertising the Tylers have allowed to dominate the landscape.
Which is why free enterprise is so dangerous to a countries economy. Only accredited, governement overseen insititutions should be able to conduct business.
In support that some should be able to avoid paying taxes while others cannot avoid it?
moral high ground? - gone together with the validity for austerity when the germans gave draghi the green light to make money (for deutsche bank in particular)
Please substantiate you nonsensical comment.
I can't believe you DON'T understand,
So I have to believe you CHOOSE not to understand,
that you have chosen to come to some more subjective conclusion.
Point taken, but for the Greek Joe Soap that's not important. What does he have to do with that? I would also stick a middlefinger right there where it belongs: in the State's face.
garbage
blame the lazy greek is so passe'
transnational corps pay little to no tax... so stop parroting faux / drudge bs..
why should any person pay more than they have to, when the real wealth contributes littles, extracts massively, and pays nothing
The bubble gamblers don't pay taxes in Greece. They send their money to tax heavens. Most of the Greeks pay their taxes.
Given the absurd corruption of Greek government, taxes ARE theft. The future of The West...in Greece.
Swap "Greek" with "US".
The only conclusion I come up with is that 50% of the mature Greek population is aware of the fact that gubbermint is a cancer.
You know, as crooked as the fucking system is, rigged for the banking system and its owners, its pretty fucking hard to feel sorry for the Greek population if they're not paying into the system. I mean, power to them for successfully taking 76 billion in European money, but I sure as hell wouldn't be lending them a fucking dime. If they consider 'taxes are stealing' then where the fuck do they think those publicly funded jobs and pensions come from. Fuck, you can't be a 'socialist fiscal conservative' - I mean, obviously you can, but only if you can convince a sucker to keep giving you money.
For example - 'taxes are theft' - fine, I'm on board, so elect a government that says 'we're cutting taxes to 0, and getting rid of ALL tax funded government programs and pensions'. Now you've got a consistent system.
There are millions of limousine liberals in the US who cheer for, and vote for every government giveaway and cheat on their taxes. It's the same in every country.
You have to laugh at the liberals getting hosed by Obamacare. They cheered when they thought the rich were going to pay for everyone's health care. Until they found out they were the rich.
Now you've got a consistent system.
Who wants consistent? That don't get us no free lunches.
If they ain't payin' any taxes then their 'austerity' might not be anywhere as bad as they let on!
That is a huge assumption based on unknown variables. Are you assuming all those taxes unpaid are only from the wealthy?
What if those that aren't paying taxes are broke, living day to day, and can't afford to pay such taxes? Then adding an austerity might burst the dam, breaking those living hand to mouth. Of course, I don't know, but it is a possibility.
Anyone not paying taxes is doing much better than if they do. The silver lining is that it automatically shrinks the size of bloated, unproductive, & slothful government largesse! If government disappears in Greece it would be an enormus break for all!
this is standard parrot dribble.. basically supporting the THEFT of greece, as they privatize everything, and sell off the people's land to jaimie dimin, good ol lloyd blankfein, and the tribe cronies
Bullshit - I'm no fan of the multi-national banks, but if the Greeks (through their government) don't want to deal with the fucking international bank system, then stop borrowing money from them.
what part of "the bulk of the tranches they have recevied.. have gone to banksters and institutions" dont you get?
the "loans".. its not like greek citizens are sitting around eating grape leaves and getting a check.. no.. the bulk of the monies from ecb.. have FUCKING GONE TO EURO BANKS, and vulture capital, crony tribe "investors"
jesus man.. read a bit more than drudge, or fox.com, k?
P < P + I
The bulk tranches that are going directly to the banks are making the banks whole for previous loans made to Greece, which Greece is unable to repay. Is that fair? No, of course not, the banks should take the hit for making stupid loans to a country that's a bad credit risk. But the whole situation wouldn't have happened if the initial loan hadn't been made and taken.
and who the FUCK is responsible for a bad loan, AL? who?
the thief trying to take a loan they cant afford... or the Person controlling the credit, paid to vet the borrower.. making the loan?
jesus fucking christ Al.. yor a smart guy.. Ive seen intelligent post by you.. wtf happened? dope sick today?
you sound like one of the compete fucking morons that blame low income urban folks for housing rash... completely ignoring Goldman/ Morgue's and others selling interest rate swaps, derivatives, etc.. that got the greek countryinto the euro to begin with...
the people have maybe 1% of the responsibility here.. the 99% responsibility... is the same old playwers.. central bankers and their progeny.. fucktard
BOTH.
I think you are misinterpreting Al's comment.
I specifically said that the banks should have taken the hit for the bad loans, and that making them whole while sticking the Greek population isn't fair, but that doesn't change the way the whole thing got started - a whole bunch of 'something for nothing' promises.
And I know personally a number of greeks who are completely self-sufficient, and will be largely unaffected by all this bullshit.
And in response to your sign-off, I was willing to keep it civil, but if that's the way you want to play then go fuck yourself you fucking douchebag cunt.
Two words. Goldman Sachs. For cooking the books in the first place.
Infinity thumb up for that post Al Huxley.
Al I agree with you, but you sound like the citizens had a say when the money was borrowed.
They had no say, but now they will pay.
Soon they will wake up homeless on the lands their ancestors conquered. (Sound familiar?)
never mind that fact that the fucking banksters didnt loan anything.. they made entries in the GL.. 1's and 0's,
tribe banksters dont actually loan out anything they actually own.. they only loan something they dont al ready own
fucking IMAGINARY 1's and 0"s
It is a great scam
+1 geekz
Had they not voted for politicians that promised them everything......they would not have needed the first loan. Had they replaced those politicians.....now that sounds familiar too....right here in the USA. However voting for an R or a D is voting for something for nothing. Both parties will spend us blind they just have different shopping lists...(different lobbiests).
We are screwed if we keep arguing the R/D distraction.
Agreed +1 People say I've wasted my votes, but I will never give my acceptance to those R/D cocksuckers.
My guess would be that Greek media is as controlled as ours.
If Greeks consider taxes as theft, then what do they consider government jobs and services? And if the jobs and services are not entitlements, then what is Austerity?
I have no beef with taxes being theft...but I don't expect something for nothing.
If they don't want to pay taxes then they should STFU about austerity.
that sounds like the amazon system. sales taxes are voluntary, only chumps pay them.
Bad article. The problem is government. Government created this taxation on promises it couldn't deliver. And government created the debt on the back of the serfs.
And Americans consider the "stock market" as theft.
Has anyone ever asked what they get for the amount of taxes they pay out?
I see roads and streets, hospitals, schools, fire departments. I don't mind contributing for those things.
I do mind when the government builds nukes, goes to wars, hire hookers, play spook, hire expensive "consultants" for things they should already know and other things with my coin. .gov also borrows money to give their employees nice fat pensions the rest of us can only dream about, make work programs that don't work and so on.
I don't blame the Greeks. They are of the same mindset as me.
something like 97% of government has nothing to do with those useful and tangible things that are common justifications for having a government
"It's is a win-win situation,” he said. “I pay less for the products and the store pays less in taxes.”
Sure is. Too many taxes in the US. We need to go Greek.
How do they feel about theiving from other taxes payers from other countries?
Ummm,
Not too bad, actually...
Probably the same way all the EBT/Entitlement people feel about living on my dime.
It would seem that being paid to do nothing has now become a Natural Right.
Look to nature to see what happens to an indivigual when it can no longer feed itself.
oh boy.
The Greeks have the right mindset. Taxes just pay for more oppression of the public.
"Greeks consider taxes as theft..."
Yeah, no shit, assholes. Guess what the rest of the world considers Greeks as?
The founders of anal sex? We still own them for that.
Play on of a hill billy joke
A Greek was transporting sheep by air. During the plane ride, problems occurred. The pilot told the sheep farmer to put on a parachute and prepare to evacuate because the plane was going down.
The farmer said "What about the sheep?"
The pilot said "Fuck them!"
The farmer responded "Do we have time for that?"
Deadbeat Socialists NEVER plan to pay back debts they incurred on their twisted rationale of percieved ideological redistribution injustices! It makes them sleep well at night!
Great, if they had that, they would only need another $325bln.
>Greeks consider taxation as theft
>decide to elect radical socialists
Wat
So many taxes in the US and they keep adding more. Government agencies keep getting bigger and more people.
Fed tax, state taxes, property taxes, Sales taxes, restaurant taxes, rental car taxes, airport taxes, liquor taxes, estate taxes.
The sales taxes alone in some places are 10 to 12%.
Then there is the Obamacare tax.
And people in the US are alseep and consider this normal. Our founding fathers never thought we would get worse than the England they left.
Yeah, some of them did.
They understood the nature of Govt. All of them.
This is why ol' Jeff recommended some regular Liberty tree watering.
HUZZAH!! They've Saved Greece- AGAIN!!
Looks like the Greeks have told their government to fuck off. Now you just have government folks and euro douche rearranging the chairs on the titanic.
Once these freeloaders default, ditch the EU & readopt the Drachma they can institute a 'no-tax/tax-free' haven zone policy to reinvigorate their economy! It might work out ok!
If they bypass the Drachma and go straight to precious metals, they can win 1st place!
They can do that today.
THey'd need a bullion/hard asset backed Drachma ... or go total Zimbabwe!
No, they do not.
All they need are pieces of gold or silver and to start offering to buy/sell in terms of weight --- like in the olden days. There is nothing stopping buyers and sellers from quoting prices in precious metals.
EU = ponzi. US is ponzi too.
Greeks consider taxes theft, but taking billions of dollars in loans and never paying it back isn't?
You clearly are mis-informed. The vast majority of the "loans" to Greece boomaranged right back to the Euro banks. The Greek government never even had any form of control over the vast majority of the "loans". It was a back-door bailout of the Euro banks.........not a bailout of Greece. That minor fact seems to always get lost in the propoganda, err, I mean news. This screw job foisted upon the Greek citizenry merely re-inforced their aversion to paying taxes. That seems like a pretty reasonable response by the citizens of Greece to me.
EXACTLY toolshed
fucking uninformed drudge readers here today.
not a fucking clue, but shouting ever so loudly. 'murica...
I am sure EVERY reader of ZH has a family member whose company they enjoy, but have learned never, ever to lend money to, under any circumstances whatsoever.
Yup.
And some of us had to learn it the hard way despite our better judgement.
So everyday people need to pay back the money that a few received?
So this is what the end of the "can-kicking" road looks like?
Perhaps you may feel differently if criminals “legally” steal and max out your credit cards in a world where your alleged “financial obligations” are forever garnished from your wages and descend upon your children, their children, etc...
Perhaps.
However statesmen do not need to monopolize such protection services. It is possible for people to protect themselves from such fraud if left to their own devises.
"Greeks consider taxes as theft"
And they are absolutely right.
Maybe Greeks are smart and Bank with HSBC?
In the UK we have PAYE, Council Tax , Road tax, VAT on just about everything including utilities, National Insrance, Capital Gains Tax, Savings Tax, Stamp Duty, Import Tax, Fuel Tax, Inheritance Tax,...
Geez how many times can a person be taxed on the same hard earned money?
If tax is so popular, why is it mandatory?
"Greeks consider taxes as theft"
And they are absolutely right.
come to think of it, this is not right.
It is actually robbery, you only pay because you are threatened.
This is an incredible exciting opportunity for the Greek people to clean their balance sheet & reduce the size of their paracitical government to next to nothing along with any tax burden! Once that is accomplished they have the opportunity to live without incidious public debt & willl attract significant investment & growth via a low flat-line tax policy for corporations & individuals!
Sadly, it is not the Greek people who are calling the shots.........although they may soon do some shooting.
Somehow they have to send the socialist/marxists packing! Don't elect anymore or you will die - as usual! Government should NEVER be more than 10% of GDP while spending only what they COLLECT!
you do realize that your galts gulch is no different than the socialst utopia when it comes to fucking fantasy
never happen. somehow galt doesnt seem to understand basic human selfishness
Except, this is NOT like GM going bankrupt, screwing almost every single bond holder, then getting a huge bailout from the Ontario Government and the US government. No, if Greece gives the finger to the EU and they wipe out all debt owing, then I suspect that they will equally wipe out every single pensioner in Greece and all near future pensioners. Their currency will probably eventually be worthless on world trade and they will destroy even more of their economy than the much hated EU austerity measures to date. They will committ economic suicide in my view if they walk away from the EU. That doesn't mean that people won't flock to Greece to sit in the sun. It means that there will be chaos for a long while when this happens.
Frozen25 answered so many questions and provided a tremendous truth when he said the paraphrased following: " No logic or critical thinking is being used, only emotional reaction."
In psychology we can see the reactive process causes more problems down the line and requires a lot of treatment to dislodge it. Reaction is emotional. Emotions do not think, just react. To act in logic or critical thinking is the only way to find the correct response to a situation and it opens the door for more options. Reaction closes the door to more options..
Clearly, the first priority will be the privatization of all Greek assets...there go all the ports, railroads and the priceless items of Greek antiquity.
Also, you can forget about the Golden Dawn takeover theory, here's why:
Greece’s new Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras, has assured the Israeli ambassador to Athens that Greek-Israeli relations will not change following his election, Kol Yisrael radio reported on Friday.
According to the report, Tsipras met this week with the Ambassador, Irit Ben-Abba, and made clear to her that his government is determined to combat anti-Semitism in Greece and that it will continue to prosecute the leaders of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/191028#.VO35uCk-Cph
and this:
On Friday, new Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras met Israel’s ambassador in Greece, Irit Ben Abba, who handed him a letter of congratulations from his Israeli counterpart, Benjamin Netanyahu.
“It seems that [Tsipras] will continue and strengthen the bilateral relations with Greece, despite the decision to pass the recognition of Palestine through the Greek parliament, in a balanced way,” Eliezer said.
Read more: New Greek finance minister accused of anti-Semitism | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/new-greek-finance-minister-accused-of-anti-semitism/#ixzz3SmBCxuD8
there ya go. complete zionazi sell out.. guess my hope was misplaced again.. should have seen this coming.
Greece = the Louisiana or New Mexico of Europe
Marginalizing the situation due to Greece's relative proportion of GDP to the EU is very much oversimplifying the potential impact of a Grexit.
You can bet your ass that it will set off a chain of events that will feel much larger than you are asserting....
My guess is that, in Greece the US, we could do without most government "services," and hence the taxation that provides us with Jack-booted cops, the public "education" system, the DHS, the Department of Agriculture, and so forth. What you actually need in the way of government "services" is public water and sewer systems, minimal law enforcement aimed at actual crime, and halfway decent roads. Most of the rest should be shuttered.
Amen brother! But good luck tryin' to rid yourself of the cancer!
Your local taxes and gas taxes take care of all of that.
Your Fed taxes take care of all those nice big boats, zippy planes and stuff that all them fellers in uniforms like to play with plus a million other things that nobody asked you if you wanted to pay for.
Plus all those nice Federal jobs to sort out all that stuff that you're not going to get because you can pay the taxes.
Take all that stuff away and there would be a revolution...
But not by you. You'd be a pretty happy camper with all that money back in your wallet.
No taxation without representation.
Do you feel, in any way represented?
My how times change! Not too long before that concept, it was "no representation without taxation". i.e.: if you are not paying into the club you don't get a say in how the money is spent.
"taxes are considered the price you have to pay for a just state"
I have spotted the problem.
"there is not just state, there is no taxes for not just state"
GREEK ANCIENT VERB