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"Sovereign Risk" - This Is How Easily Your Property Can Be Confiscated
Submitted by Simon Black via Sovereign Man blog,
This is a great example of ‘sovereign risk’:
One of my close friends here in Singapore opened a brokerage account last year with Interactive Brokers.
If you’re not familiar, Interactive Brokers is a leading securities broker based in Greenwich, Connecticut. You can trade stocks, currencies, options… all that stuff.
Now, my friend is not a US resident (he lives here in Singapore), nor is he a US citizen.
He opened his account through their Asian branch in Hong Kong, funded the account from here in Singapore, and then bought some Canadian stocks listed on the Toronto stock exchange.
Nothing about his investments had anything to do with the United States.
So you could imagine his surprise when he received a recent email from Interactive Brokers informing him that his account was about to be “escheated to the state”.
Yeah, I had to look it up too.
It turns out that if you don’t have a specific amount of “qualifying activity” then your account is considered dormant and will be turned over to the state.
Now- my friend had bought his stocks. He was quite comfortable with his positions.
He’s not a day-trader or anything like that—he is happy to simply buy shares of undervalued companies and own for the long-term.
So he bought the shares and walked away from the account for a while—a true ‘buy and hold’ strategy.
He didn’t feel compelled to log in every day to check the price. Besides, there are only a zillion other websites where you can check stock prices.
But it was precisely for this reason—his nature of being a responsible, long-term investor—that he did not have any ‘qualifying activity’.
That’s why he received a notification from his broker saying that his account was “at risk of being classified as abandoned and subject to forfeiture. . .”
Interactive Brokers went on to write:
“Based upon a review of your account UXXXX284, there has been no such qualifying activity and it is therefore subject to being classified as abandoned if you do not act quickly.”
“If we fail to hear from you the account will be escheated to the state and closed.”
Needless to say he thought is was a joke. Or spam. But it was the real thing.
Apparently the government is in pretty desperate need of cash.
More importantly, it’s a sad testament to the nature of investing today that any responsible, long-term investor is automatically presumed to be dead.
It’s as if they expect us to be like little lab rats constantly running around the financial maze looking for new crumbs of cheese.
The amazing thing is that they waited so long to send him a warning.
I mean, if he had been on vacation or not checking his email, his account would have been liquidated and turned over to the state.
He was fortunate enough to have caught it. I imagine there are plenty of others who were not so lucky.
Look, we’ve said it over and over again: Sovereign Risk is the biggest risk out there.
You cannot EVER underestimate the desperate tactics and procedures of bankrupt governments.
They’ll come up with every creative way possible to relieve you of your assets, even when it means declaring you dead and ‘escheating’ your funds to the state.
At a minimum, know the rules. (i.e. if you have a US-based brokerage account, log in right away and generate some activity).
More importantly, consider moving at least a portion of your assets abroad to a safe, stable, low-debt jurisdiction that doesn’t have the same desperation.
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Keep running Simon! They're coming for your Rochefoucauld!
Someones about to be LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER, if he don't ship or shape up. Who ever he is.
Your property belongs to all the people.
And all the people belong to the State. Game, set, and match.
Bank of America used to do the same thing to unused checking and savings accounts. They claimed they turned them over to the state of California but in reality they just kept the funds for themselves.
Are you sure the Feds are behind this? Or do you think the brokerage is stealing accounts and then blaming some nonexistent government agency?
brokerages and banks make ALOT of money off commisions from trades and services. if you arnt trading, or charging cards, they arnt making money. pretty fucked up
I got a similar notice on a checking account after 2 years of inactivity (Santander Bank in the northeast). I had just plunked a chunk of change down and left it there, thinking it would be safe. I mean, hey, it's a bank, right?
"He’s not a day-trader or anything like that"
This article, and the most comments here, show the depth actual hands-on market experience here.
IB (the operative word "Interactive") is for "active traders" (aka day traders).
The minimum required average balance is a mere $100k.
I guess no accounts here?
Unbelievable. "I opened an active trading account and let it sit...now they are closing it, just like they said they would in the contract. Oh the horrible, evil GOVERNMENT!
Same thing here when I was trading the FX market. Took a year off and upon going back to log in got the notice my account was terminated due to inactivity and the $50 I had was used for "closing account costs". lol
Fucking thieves.
When there was true growth in the economy, the banking / government entities didn't have to play games to get cash any way they can because the growing business model was stable and there was surplus vig to grease all the palms. However without growth and surplus, it's anything goes and nothing matters.
Fees for everything/anything they can get.
ZIRP
Bail Out --> Bail in.
Si signore, es-cheating, si.
If the person is Singaporean and he dies and has no testament and no relatives, the state of Singapore should inherit.
But strangely the article cleverly camouflages the question about the nationality of the person. Which rings my alarm bells, because if you open an account at IB (or at any broker), you must legitimate yourself.
Could it be, that this person gave no valid personal data when he opened the account? Maybe he also used a temporary postal address which no longer was valid and he used faked documents? Then the letters and paperwork would have been sent to this abandoned address (or he just planned to play the "I did never receive anything" card). And after a long time of no replies from a fake identity, the broker contacted him via email that the account with the faked postal address and ID was about to be escheated, because no legitimate owner could be found.
That's a possible explanation and since the article withholds ALL IMPORTANT NECESSARY INFORMATION about the identification process, my gut feeling tells me, this story stinks and that probably someone believed he was super clever to use a fake ID.
Sometimes I have the impression ZHers believe there were no criminals in the world and the only evil was the state. Living in such a fantasy land, can have devastating consequences if news and articles are always interpreted from a certain point of view, instead to recognize, that there can also be evil intentions behind those blaming the state.
Therefore it's important to recongize if key information is missing, no matter of the personal believs.
Most people cannot do that - and that, btw, is the reason why they cannot make money in the markets: you always have to question your own knowledge and opinion. If you do so, then you will discover, where important information is missing - and you will discover that people are not interested in knowledge - they only want to find their opinion be supported and choose the information selectively. Information bias. The gauranteed way to desaster in the markets.
You gotta admit, at least they sent the guy a letter. Corzine didn't even do that.
They do the same thing with safety deposit boxes. If youi don't use them they grab them.
If your bank account is dormant for 5 years in my state the state gets it.
Somebody tell me the over/under that AMPEX customers names will be "ceded"...
Doesn't really matter if apmex gives your info to the govt or not. If you are buying from an online retailer, you are paying with either a credit/debit card, wore transfer, or check made out to 'apmex'. Those kind of transactions are stored for a long time, and the govt has unlimited access to them.
So what's the alternative?
Obviously Simoon has not been paying attention or he could have expanded on his little theme here. Interactive Brokers if you may recall was a bidder for the assets of MF Global. Do they sound like the kind of firm that has a reliable sense of your interests at heart?
Nothing new, Unfortunately,this is a common disclosure
Unfortunately yes, still thats fucked up, just the presumption that private property "reverts" in some way (without title or ever having claimed to own beforehand) to the state. Most everyone has an heir, cousins, nephews, in-laws, someone.
Well, I need to do something about that...
"Having no legal heir, the state and/or monarch having proved this beyond all shadow of doubt to the public that all bloodlines having preceded me in death, I hereby appoint and authorize my executor(s) to undigitize all dormant fiat funds to burn and/or shred them on the courthouse steps. Furtherore, all real property is to be destroyed in place and the ground salted and/or toxified on which they once stood as they see fit, so king or state get absolutely nothing I ever owned or use thereof."
Signature: nmewn
I'll need some witnesses to the above ;-)
Some folks got Escheated
You missed your opportunity. What you meant to say was "We escheated some folks"
Thanks for clarifying some folks
You fail again! "We clarified some folks."
At least they came up with a proper word for it.
"Hey we're gonna cheat- um, EScheat you out of your property."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escheat
God bless Simon Black.
1. At least they notified the guy before they did it. When they go headlong into confiscation for real, there will be no such notification.
2. "More importantly, it’s a sad testament to the nature of investing today that any responsible, long-term investor is automatically presumed to be dead." That's actually a pretty good assumption. Long-term investors are about as common as living WWII vets these days.
3. This is already fairly commonplace in the US as well.
First it will be international stocks as they’ll be deemed "money laundering abroad"
in the hopes people will only buy domestic stocks. And than those will crash.
Mom, Billy's not playing fair! Escheated!
Glad I got off this circle jerk of paper wealth. However, I come back here daily anyways.
Just like Soros Engineer the Whole thing, Right??
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/soros-ford-shovel-196-million-to-net-n...
To the Lord alright.
More people doing God's work. It's a beautiful thing.
Do not attribute that which belongs to Satan to be God's.
Lloyd Brankfein is a Luciferian. He is doing his God's work, Satan's work.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits"...
+1 noDebt
So now we're being escheated like back in feudal times when the lord of the manor got to seize you possessions. Next we'll have George Soros or Sheldon Adelson with the right to fuck your wife on her wedding night. It's is called "Le Droit du Seigneur" (right of the lord). Welcome to serfdom peasants.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/532829/droit-du-seigneur
Just the tip of ye ol iceburg. Wait until their backs are against the wall, somewhwere in the fine print will be..what's yours is mine!
It's not yo money, you didn't earn that!
P.S. Always, always keep some or more than some $/worth outside of the entire system!
Isn't that what makes you sovereign in the first place?
Better read up on you disclaimer on your trading account.
the stocks you buy aren’t yours unless you have them notarized and put on your name.
a joke that costs you 1200 euro’s here in Belgium.
per stock...
so who does that?
That slipped on through the mazes in 2006...
No, who believes that?
Yeah, all the stocks I know are in Street Name.
Greg Morse says a bunch a bout this in a Video
Cede and Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company
Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation - Wikipedia, the free ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ Depository_Trust_%26_Clearing_Corporation -
The Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation (DTCC) is a US post-trade financial services company providing clearing and settlement services to the financial ...
Greg Morse says V the Guerrilla agrees that DTCC, US Holding Company, not only holds all the real stock certificates in USA and much of the world too... but is behind setting up the BRICS Central Bank.(146 Minutes into Video, Euroclear, Clearstream, Cede & Company, Luxembourg, Russia)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmJKrhWucC0 (45 Minutes in Ceced & Trust, DTCC 51 Minutes in)
Cede and Co. hold title on your stocks, not you unless you pay for it..
With that name, they are telling you exactly where you will stand when they pull the plug.
You were warned.
I may still have a couple of stock certificates in a drawer somewhere....
But it's true.... if your stocks are in "street name".
Alan Turing couldn't get into my Bitcoin wallet, I'd like to see how the government would.
By legalising it and taxing the shit out of it. The upside is that you would still get rich as fuck so who cares ? Win - Win .
They will take and take and take, until someone shoves a shitgum up their ass and makes it go boom. They understand no ther reasoning.
Simon, you don't fix this problem by moving to a different jurisdiction, you fix it by holding physical assets that are hidden from all jursidictions.
This isn't that hard, folks.
They will change the timing. It will get so bad it will be, didn't you get the memo 5 days ago? And since you didn't respond in a "reasonable" time frame your account was tagged as inactive, divested and forfieted to the state. Oh yeah we also notice you haven't been cutting the lawn at your house and .........
your friend is either lame, or a terrorist. /s
Bitcoin users are not affected.
bitcoin has died 217 times
THEN: Robin Hood
NOW: Robbin' Hoods
Must be what happened at MF Global.
"any responsible, long-term investor is automatically presumed to be dead"
I guess this is the Turing Test equivalent for modern capitalism...
escheated , rehypothocated , refukked ,
bitcoin , BTChez .......... User not affected.
You look like an innocent but well meaning sheep, prancing through the lush green grass, not a care in the world, because you have Bitcoin. Then:
Conclusion: Ewe can be as affected as anyone with any kind of digital money. But go ahead and bleat along your merry way, you succulent, woolly, sheepie you...
The wolves think you are smokin' hot...
PMSL . You still do not get it do you ?
Bitcoin is the fucking Wolf ....
Not as long as it trades for fiat. Infinity is a bitch that way.
Not as long as it trades for fiat ?
Like Gold , Real Estate , Bonds and Stocks ?
There are already exchanges that make direct BTC - Gold - Bond transfers.
Is that really the best you can do ? FFS Stop wasting your time //////.
Ok MsCreant ... you are normally on the ball, but you are confused in some of those points. I will try to help correct that.
1. TRUE (sort of) - but which 'they' - some jurisdictions allow Bitcoin, some dont ... this point shows a US centric view.... I suggest looking wider... what you see with Bitcoin is a true free market approach where people can choose this sort of money or ignore it. No coercion involved.
2. TRUE - but again, which jurisdiction. Only the US and two other countries demand tax on income from all other jurisdiction. Eg: The tax treatment in Singapore is extremely clear - tax rate zero.
3. LOL - 'they' can demand what they like - that particular idea can not be enforced.
4. TRUE - it is digital money - but the power will come back on - or we all return to the stoneage
5. TRUE - again - it is digital money - but again, the net will come back, or we have much worse problems.
6. Very Very unlikely - people have been trying to crash it for 6 years years - the core network is rock solid. More so than national/international bank systems.
7. Very Very unlikely - and the same breakthough needed to attack Bitcoin, would also crack every other banking network ... a much richer prize at present.
8. - same point as 7 ... same answer
9. Absolutely true..... the only one where I completely agree with you. It is called 'systemic risk' - and that is the same risk gold and silver have (to a much lower degree) ... if everyone walks away from an agreement to use X as money ... it stops being money.
EDIT:
There are real risks with Bitcoin, but many more myths.... here are some of the common myths
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths
The worst part is, once the state has it they will work hard to avoid giving it back to you. Had a client furnish evey letter, document they wanted showing it was his funds to the state of CA and they lose documents or need new ones all the time and after two years, still nothing. It takes them a year to review what you originally furnish.
after they get to z-cheat they start over at the beginning of the alphabet with aacheat, abcheat, etc.
There are enough really serious issues out there without trying to get us excited about this one. It's strictly an administrative screw up. Has your friend lost his stock?
In most states (probably all of them), by law such account balances are transferred to the state. There they go through a process of publication and disposal. It is a common occurrence upon death. They can sit there for a very long time.
There's a profitable little cottage industry out there of people who will read through the published lists, find heirs, and tell them they will help them get their funds ... for a 30% cut.
If you are ever approached by one of them, thank them for the heads up. Then contact the state's department that deals with such issues. It takes a little paperwork (they have to be extremely careful someone is not pretending to be you) and bingo ... all is well.
It's one of those "oh so rare" legitimate government functions ... something that no other single entity can efficiently do ... in the same class as recording deeds.
Yellow cheese - you ask...
Build me a sandwhich quite fast.
Full of cut cold and ignorance abound - with this I astound.
Litle cheese - yes I'm here...
Can you fetch me a beer/
Kiss it mother f#ckers -- game, set, match - what's found!
I had a similar thing occur with a bank acct which was not touched since 2007. It went into "inactive" without me knowing. I just wanted to keep the money in the bank. Then I got a letter in the mail which I fortunately read, as banks also send junk mail. It said to sign their post card and drop it in the mail or I'd lose the money. No thanks. Went to the bank, a d because it was "inactive" I could not close it. I had to transfer it to a different account, then I withdrew it same day. I felt like it was a type of money grab. Watch your accounts folks.
Sounds like a notice will be receiving from our personal (checking/savings) banks, soon.
It's not yours until we say so...if ever.
Many years ago, newly married and moved into a new house my wife needed a few bucks for something as I went off to work. I gave her one of the bank passbooks to take the money from and left. When I came home she said the bank didn't give her any money as the account was closed out. She said the bank manager hinted that sometimes a husband will say he lost the passbook, get a new one, close out the account and take off with the money and his misstress!
So, I called the bank the following morning, mentioned what happened, and they said they'd look into it and get back to me in a few days. I said if they didn't get back in 20 minutes I'd personally visit the State Banking Commission. Ten minutes later I got my answer. They had acquired another bank in which a customer had the same account number I had so they sent a notice of My new account to my OLD address in error which bounced back to them. At that point they did nothing, didn't check to see my new address, look me up in the phone book, nothing except keep the money in the new passbook. I went to the bank, gave them a loud piece of my mind in front of customers, was ushered into the managers office, and closed the account.
What I find hilarious is that fact that so many people still actually believe that any fiat they have in a bank is just sitting there with their name on it in a nice little pile. I explained this to my oldest, a teen, a few years ago. He didn't believe me but does now. At the time he asked me quite innocently "then what if a lot of people all go to the bank at the same time on a certain day and they run out?" Thus turning it into a little primer about fractional banking.
quasimodo, you're right, it all digits, zero's and ones backed by nothing.
Sooooo, like WHO is "the threat" again? Just to clarify things?
Really.
meh.
"I mean, if he had been on vacation or not checking his email, his account would have been liquidated and turned over to the state."
Bastards.
This is much ado about nothing. Logging in. A phone call. All qualifying activity to let a entity know your alive and still interested.
And to the idiot that claimed BofA kept them, horseshit. For a time, yes, as they try to contact the client. And then it gets turned over. Bing bang boom.
My friend's mother makes $3,000 per hour online escheating property for the state.
Only one activity I need to generate - store as gold & silver atoms.
No expiry date.
Only one activity I need to generate - store as gold & silver atoms.
No expiry date.
That's nothing. I was left $6,000,000 by a Nigerian prince, who heard I was a cool guy. The Nigerian government is refusing to cooperate, and it seems I have no recourse as a U.S. citizen. Sons of bitches, I haven't seen a penny of that $6 million
Wonder if this works on credit cards. Just evade AmEx for three years and the debt is magically erased.
"He’s not a day-trader or anything like that"
This article, and the most comments here, show the depth actual hands-on market experience here.
IB (the operative word "Interactive") is for "active traders" (aka day traders).
The minimum required average balance is a mere $100k.
I guess no accounts here?
Unbelievable. "I opened an active trading account and let it sit...now they are closing it, just like they said they would in the contract. Oh the horrible, evil GOVERNMENT!
Well, I sounds like it is time to be an asshole to the banks again. Some of you may recall what Mr.s M and I did last Friday. Basically, we blew the fucking cash drawers up at US Bank with a $5K withdrawal. We cleaned them out by taking all of their small denonimations right down to rolls of pennies. The bank manager had to become involved and it was a quite a scramble for them. The manager asked why she needed so much cash. Well, for a coin show and they don't take credit cards there.
I will be happy to provide some more "bank activity" and withdraw another $5K on Friday morning. I can only pull $500 a day via the ATM and I have been doing so. I don't bank at the same bank that my wife does. No matter how much I love her she does not need to know anything too specific if you know what I mean and I think you do. All I say is to get the cash out of the bank. She thinks she will get into trouble if we do it again and I said, "So, so, suck your toe all the way to Mexico. When you are there, wash your hair and don't forget your underwear." Basically, the bankers can fuck off.
There is nothing illegal about what I am doing. There is lot cash in my office right now and I know I am taking a risk but that is nothing new. I take a far worse risk by leaving it all in the bank with no yield. There is no point in doing leaving digitz on the ledger and who knows what the bank is invested in anyway? Where is my prospectus? Oh, there isn't one? Oh, OK. It is a bit hard sometimes to convince people they should not keep too many digits in the bank and especially so the bankers. I am doing the reverse of the South Park Savings and Loan. Poof, and it's gone into my personal possession and will be turned into whatever I want to turn it into. It's my fucking money.
Otherwise it will likely turn into this other South Park Investment Bank strategy.
There is nothing better than when they can't track what the hell it is that you are doing financially. No one really knows what my assets are or what they are invested in. No one knows exactly what I have or how I acquired it much less what price I paid. Prove it. They can blow me. I guess I am a trrrrrist.
If you're making multiple 5,000 dollar withdrawals, AND 500 dollar ATM withdrawals, I salute you my friend...
Now get the rest of that money the fuck outta there! You're CRAZY to have so much in there!
How do you know the money isn't yours and you only have a lien on a claim...
If you can't touch it, It might not be your money
If you have to talk to someone to get it, It might not be your money
If you have to sign on to a website, It might not be your money
If it is in an "Electronic" format, It might not be your money
TD BankNorth (Toronto Dominion Bank) active in New England, USA (state of New Hampshire) "lost" an entire account of mine some years ago. Eventually in frustration I contacted the Comptroller of the Currency who oversees such banks. Within 24 hours I was contacted and told that the funds had been escheated. Now consider this: I had been trying to get the ~$700 out of that account for many years and each year checked the escheated funds database--no such funds. So I called escheated funds and was told: "no such funds." Then later in the day they "found it."
Frankly I believe that the funds were stolen by someone within the banking system.
Banks are not to be trusted. Governments are not to be trusted.
Solution: stack physical gold and silver.
You dont hold it You dont own it.!