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PIIGS Go To War: Spain, Portugal Slam Tsipras' Accusations Of "Conspiracy Plot" To Overthrow Greek Government
Just when things seemingly couldn't get any stranger in Europe, we open a whole-new bizarro chapter.
Back on February 1, when the negotiations, or rather posturing, surrounding the Greek bailout extension was at its peak, we reported something peculiar: of all the countries in Europe, it was none other than France, seemingly tired of walking in Germany's shadow, that announced it was "prepared to support Greece" in its debt negotiations. "France is more than prepared to support Greece," French finmin Sapin said, adding that Greece’s efforts to renegotiate were "legitimate." Sapin urged a "new contract between Greece and its partners."
Of course, this quickly led nowhere because as everyone knows, France is irrelevant in Europe and only Germany's opinion matters: Germany, which only agreed to a Greek bailout extension, when all of Syriza's demands were crushed, and the Tsipras government is not merely a shell of its pre-election promises, and in many ways, just a continuation of the previous Samaras regime. As such, the Frencsh support of a Greek debt writedown, understandable since it is none other than France whose socialists will one day sooner or later require a comparable debt negotiation, was duly noted... and promptly ignored:
However, what was even more peculiar is that it was the financial peers of Greece, the other insolvent PIIGS, particularly Spain and Portugal, who exist only thanks to the goodwill of the ECB buying up their bonds (or else watch as their economies implodes overnight once the "sex and drugs"-boosting facade of their GDP is stripped away) that took a far more hard-line approach toward Greece, and in fact were just as harsh on the Greek debt renegotiation proposal as Germany itself.
Yesterday Tsipras made clear his displeasure with the betrayal of what were formerly his socio-economic insolvent equals quite well-known, when he accused Spain and Portugal on Saturday of "leading a conservative conspiracy to topple his anti-austerity government, saying they feared their own radical forces before elections this year."
As Reuters reports, in a speech to his Syriza party, Tsipras turned on Madrid and Lisbon, accusing them of taking a hard line in negotiations which led to the euro zone extending the bailout programme last week for four months.
"We found opposing us an axis of powers ... led by the governments of Spain and Portugal which for obvious political reasons attempted to lead the entire negotiations to the brink," said Tsipras, who won an election on Jan. 25.
"Their plan was and is to wear down, topple or bring our government to unconditional surrender before our work begins to bear fruit and before the Greek example affects other countries," he said, adding: "And mainly before the elections in Spain."
This is not surprising: after all as previously reported, Spain's new anti-establishment Podemos movement has topped some opinion polls, making it a serious threat to the conservative People's Party of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy in an election which must be held by the end of this year.
Rajoy went to Athens less than a fortnight before the Greek election to warn voters against believing the "impossible" promises of Syriza. His appeal fell on deaf ears and voters swept the previous conservative premier from power.
Portugal will also have elections after the summer but no anti-austerity force as potent as Syriza or Podemos has so far emerged there. In an interview published before Tsipras made his speech, Prime Minister Pedro Passos Coelho denied that Portugal had taken a hard line in negotiations on the Greek deal at the Eurogroup of euro zone finance ministers.
"There may have been a political intention to create this idea, but it is not true," he told the Expresso weekly newspaper.
Passos Coelho aligned himself with euro zone governments which have called for policies to promote economic growth but without trying to walk away from austerity as in Greece. "We were on the same side as the French government, with the Italian and Irish governments. I think it's bad to stigmatize southern European countries," he said.
It's bad, but the very next day both Spain and Portugal rushed to cry in Brussels, when both nations demanded that the EU "arbitrate" and respond to Tsipras' allegations, in the process essentially validating his accusations. The same EU which orchestrated the entire farce to begin with.
As Bloomberg reports, "Pedro Passos Coelho and Mariano Rajoy request response from EU after Greek premier Alexis Tsipras said that the two southern European countries were trying to cause the downfall of his government during recent talks, a spokesperson for Rajoy, who asked not to be named citing govt policy, says by phone." Portugal, Spain sent a letter on the matter to the European Council and the European Commission
To be sure, none of this will result in either government retracting its statements (especially since Greece now only has rhetorical "conquests" to fall back on having given up all leverage to German by admitting it is unable to quit the Eurozone, i.e., the biggest trump card, and bluff, it may have had), but it will lead to even more animosity, only no longer between the European "North" and "South", but among the Peripheral nations themselves, as the political bickering redirects anger from Merkel and the ECB, and toward other Mediterranean countries. Perhaps just as Merkel wanted from the beginning.
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As Tsipras claimed also Samaras was with them:
Tsipras: European conservative forces tried to destabilize the new government!
Watch out for ORDO AB CHAO.
Alexis Tsipras and Yanis Varoufakis are the real deal.
Will they succeed over the corrupted European oligarchs?
Time will tell; but probably not.
Do you really think the European Oligarchs as you call them would allow them to even rise in power? Come on Escrava you know better than putting your hope in these clowns.
European Oligarchs are humans. They cannot control every aspect in every nation.
These Oligarchs have good systems 'net' in place to filter but sometimes few squeezes through.
I agree some things do squeeze through but not in Greece. Its been the talk of the EU for a while now. Look at Scottland. We all hoped their voting would tell the UK to suck it....nope didn't happen. Then we thought maybe the swiss would vote to help Gold and their country thinking now its time...nope bankers still in control. You see they control it all. The things that squeeze through the cracks are alternate media news stories that are conspiracy theories years later becoming facts. Voting for a political party has never left from the oligarchs control. Its a rigged game.
There is a wide general perception according to which the elites are quite powerful and essentially unbeatable exactly because they control the whole system. In reality, they have failed many times in the past to impose their plans, because they failed to predict how things will evolve. A system no matter how powerful, is not unbeatable.
They have failed many times only to learn from mistakes. We all talk about wanting it to end but do any of us actually know how to make it end. They are unbeatable and the only way I personally know how to win is not participate. I am always willing to learn new ways how to win.
I don't think it ends somewhere, somehow. It is always an ongoing struggle, until probably humanity takes the next huge evolutionary step.
These are innate moral hooks used by our puppetmasters to control the dupes. Which ones are likely evolve for the better given the current environment?
The Six Foundations, Values and their opposites
Care/harm: cherishing and protecting others.
Fairness/cheating: rendering justice according to shared rules. (Alternate name: Proportionality)
Liberty/oppression: the loathing of tyranny.
Loyalty/betrayal: standing with your group, family, nation. (Alternate name: Ingroup)
Authority/subversion: obeying tradition and legitimate authority. (Alternate name: Respect.)
Sanctity/degradation: abhorrence for disgusting things, foods, actions. (Alternate name: Purity.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Foundations_Theory
I would guess the reason elites have been unable to secure and institute a stable world government is because of the lack of cheap oil or a new replacement. The city states of the pre-industrial era were sustained by slave labor. They overextended themselves of course and collapsed just like all other complex societies (see Tainter).
But as cheaper energy like coal and oil became available, the ability to centralize power over larger and larger areas of geography became possible. Coal made the nation state possible. Oil made super-powers possible. They've been trying to make the next stage of centralization happen for 100 years now, but have failed because oil just isn't efficient enough to extend power over that large a territory.
Presuming peak oil works out like we think it will, not only will global control become increasingly impossible, but the ability for the nation state to survive will also come under threat. I suspect we will probably end up going back to city states being the primary centers of power by 2050. Some will no doubt be using slave labor.
Meanwhile, the nation state will make this transition as difficult as possible by trying to hold on to central power at the nation state level, but ultimately, while they may claim the US exists and is strong, practically all decisions will be made at the local level because there isn't enough energy to force compliance to the degree we have now.
Viewed within this context, it becomes clear why they've failed to create a global government even after a lot of time and effort. They are fighting against a resource collapse at a time when they need something even more efficient and plentiful than oil to take over. When wealth is plentiful, it's easy to expand control, but that hasn't been the case for a long time. We've been going in the opposite direction for 30 years now and are likely to pick up speed over the next 30.
TLDR: Global government will never happen because the energy isn't there.
x100 Bang on the money there. Very few understand the impact that concentrated energy has had both over the last 100+ years and will have over the next 10-20 years.
You must be a reader at http://srsroccoreport.com/
I tend to disagree though decentralization would be nice.
While it is appropriate to estimate the future based on past behaviors (history rhymes), that is not wise in terms of technology.
Technological progress is so rapid that the rate of doubling is approaching a decade and, barring government destroying civilization, will continue to speed up.
So predicting that the public will continue to be duped is easy. Predicting energy production, storage, and usages is dubious at best.
I agree that technology is the X factor here and could change the final outcome, but I still believe that collapse on a global level is more likely to happen first because an accelerant to the collapse (like a market event or black swan) could happen any day, while our tech needs a little more time to -- to borrow a phrase -- "reach escape velocity" where it no longer matters if there is economic growth for it to be self sustaining.
If we have a break down in centralization prior to that point, tech growth will be retarded by a significant amount. It may even reverse for a time.
All of this is impossible to predict, it's dubious as you say, but there is still hope.
Oligarchs are not human except in form. Their behaviors are more animal than human.
You are human when you overcome the belief that other people are your property - either directly or through another party.
Let's see, "Spain and Portugal go to war..."
Or is it their bought off mouth pieces that say this?
the real deal? of what, exactly?
they're politicians, power-hungry maniacs who would throw their own mother under the bus if it meant more domination over others. no different from the others.
I agree, they are the real deal. Whoever the author is -- they are a self serving piece of shit and probably some scumbag hedgefund manager or FX trader.
Assholes like this are short Euro and want the Eurozone to disolve so they can make some money at the tax payers expense.
Syriza is on record that Greece is insolvent and want to restructure this debt.
This takes time since Germany and the ECB were stupid enough back in 2011 to privatize all these bad loans issued by Greece to Eurobanks instead of making them take a haircut.
Greece DOES NOT want to leave the Eurozone and Germany is trying to get the best deal possible on the haircut they will inevitably have to accept.
Come back in 4 months and see if Syriza sold out the Greek people, join the Greek oligarchs they were supposed to replace and kick just kick the can down the road/extend and pretend.
Like a monkey trying to fuck a football.
I'm confused here. Are you speaking of the American 'football' or the entire rest of the world's 'football' that the monkey is attempting to fornicate with? It seems one might be slightly easier to accomplish than the other. :-)
<We're gonna need a bigger monkey or a smaller ball.>
PIIGskin.
Either way, much effort and ambition,
poor results;)
Depends upon your point of view. I'll bet the ball had a...........well.........ball. :-)
Well, as my old friend Jack used to say when things were completely screwed up, "It's monkey fuck a football time!"
Can't we all just get along?
No.
Best quote in the history of mankind.
...Rodney King, you really were a dumbass.
I prefer Jack Nicholson's speech, even though it was not successful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPMmC0UAnj0
The feeding pig trough
they are all leeches but none more so than tsipras
You're mama's leech, pendragon (aka pencil-dick).
Think about all the cocks she's sucked. THINK pendragon, THINK!
Look at your mother's mouth - and think about how she went UNDER the table to put food on the table.
You pathetic Zionist Bankster Apologist.
PIIGS Grunting for war in economic shambles ? ( hilarious acronym ) . BRICS sounds much better though .
As I recall, it was the [3rd] brick house, that the wolf did not succeed to blow down...
Then again, that might have just been a Walt Disney pedophilia fantasy... It's a blur to me now...
The three little pigs,
Topol, Topol-M, Skiff
Behind this sad little facade... The whole fucking system is out of control!
The masses are to busy staring into their i-pods to grasp the situation. Most could not understand it anyway, so just as well.
Tic-Tock....Boom!
LOL Siri has no answer ! Oh no!
Been waiting for this. What was it. a year or so ago that Portugal, Spain, italy, cyprus, et al were all FUCKED to the max? what happened to that? Shit is gettin real.... you can only deny reality so long. I know by expereience..lol...the rent is DUE
Fuck the Greeks. Tsirpussy talked a good game and pussied out. Now he is looking for scapegoats for his lack of will
Either default or fuck off. Coulda woulda shoulda. The whine of a whipped cur
Annunnake, Tsirpussy is no pussy, he is very cleaver, maybe brilliant. Turns out he was always an allie of Germany and TPTB and managed to fool the Greeks into voting for him. I bought into it myself.
So what has he accomplished. He was the official rep of Greece and has agreed to stipulations that not only screw the Greeks but give away their soverign right to make changes. He has demoralized the movement within Greece who have tried to resist their being raped. His party has branded Golden Dawn a criminal party and made them out to be nazis.
And now, he had moved to discredit any movement in Spain and Portugal to resist the powers to be. He is trying to create conflict between any movement in those countries and the movement in Greece so that they do not cooperate.
Did he mention how Germany is the primary power who is screwing Greece? I do not think so.
Greece wanted in the EU and sure didn't have a problem taking euro's. Even if it is a shitty deal who accepted? If the devil offers you a deal who is at fault? He just offered the deal its you who accepted. So Greeks need to be big boys and accept they fucked their own people. Just like here in the good ole USA. Everyday in the US there is not a revolution, is a day we the people are fucking the future generations.
"Goldman Sachs wanted Greece in the EU" -- Fixed it for you.
Follow the money.
That may be true but it is still the same principal. If the people allow corporations/politicians to step all over them and rob them blind, those individuals will do just that. Everybody in the world is guilty for allowing a small tribe to run the world. Either we stop the show or continue watching already knowing the end.
OK. Follow the Money.
Greece gets several billion euro a year as subsidies. They like that.
In addition, the country has run up probably EUD 400 billion in debt for spending it did not pay for.
Sure, GS got paid as an employee of Greece, just as you get paid for mowing lawns.
The Greeks themselves got the money and had a party. Some of them got more of the wine and ouzo, but they are trying to stick the EU, including Spain and Portugal, with the bill.
Follow the Money means also Look Who Is Not Paying. That entity is Greece.
So let them default already you stupid fuck.
What part of all fiat goes to zero don't you understand?
So he is intetnionally working to trigger another full blown war in Europe? Interesting.
More theater for the masses...
Anunnaki, how is the view from the cheap-seat peanut gallery?
Can you actually make out the man in the arena?
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Whatever. Color me singularly unimpressed with yet another populist who talks the talk but can't walk the walk
Just like Obama. I knew it was all a sham as soon as he picked his cabinet.
Same with Syriza. Groveling for pennies to remain as the shit stain on the EU so the Germans can export their goods on the back of a lesser currency
Even the Greeks have been rioting over Tsipras and Whatthefakis's capitulation
Let's see what Golden Dawn has in store
Meh
Anunnaki Many of us are unimpressed. Many others think Greece is buying time to default in 4 months and many others want the whole system to implode. Basically the Greeks want the Euro and this is the price they are going to pay to stay in the EMU. Name just about any industrialized country these days and it is all about free money for the masses.
We often read and comment about social programs but this is what is all about now. Voters basically vote for politicians that promise them more free stuff. SYRIZA is just another political party following the same ole rhetoric.
Many commenters here want the whole system to blow and it is not going to happen anytime soon. All one has to do is look at Japan to see what is going to happen to the rest of us.
Greed of the masses is all that matters anymore and handouts to all.
It's becoming clearer to Syriza and the people of Greece the choice is defiance or Euro, THEY CAN'T HAVE BOTH.
Now they wait and see which way the wind blows.
But I have a feeling even if defiance is what the people want, Tsirplas and Varoufuckit will not leave the Euro.
It won't be hello Golden Dawn, but probably a splinter group of Syriza breaking away to form their own party. Greeks will never willingly go far right, and "centrist" parties like Potami everyone knows are just the same ol shit in different clothing.
Careful for what you wish. Communists are waiting for their turn while rich Greek politicians and wealthy business class are "leaving on the next plane, don't know if I ever return again", For sure they are not going to Spain or Portugal.
While I do not particularly care for those dirt bag commies, someone is going to have to blow this shit up. Although if they get in power, the first thing I expect them, to do is beg the Troika for more of someone else's money.
New Anonymous op as White House still ignores murder of American reporter Serena Shim in Turkey
We can help Tyler raffle off tickets as a donation to support Zerohedge. I believe we can pull in millions on betting which European Union PIG comes in first to exit.
Pig Race . Know I’m a pick.. At least I love my country built on a Constitutional Law, not Executive Orders to defy skirting rules & regulation to further a hidden agenda.
Let's Play! Little Piggy Rhymes
http://www.babycenter.com/0_lets-play-little-piggy-rhymes_10309519.bc
This little piggy joined the market
This little piggy should've stayed home
This little piggy had loadsa euros
Then this little piggy had none
And this little piggy went
Wee, wee, wee all over the euro zone!
there fixed it.
It may be just a welfare hotel, but nobody else wants to lose their room at the Shitstorm Inn like Samaras.
With Merkel in NSA's hand - and bankers in Merkels bed - and politicos bought and blackmailed NSA whores - is there any wonder that nobody fell in love with Tsipras or Syriza?
The only wonder left is what caused Tsipras and Yanis to piss into their own pants.
Guess NSA have them both on porn balls already.
Nothing ever changed since Stonage.
Nothing will ever change.
Humans nothing but fucking animals.
So the oppressed PIIGS are turning on each other. The future never looked brighter for the EU.
If you are into drones check out this site http://pickyourdrone.com/
Big man, pig man
Ha, ha, charade you are
You well heeled big wheel
Ha, ha, charade you are
And when your hand is on your heart
You're nearly a good laugh
Almost a joker
With your head down in the pig bin
Saying 'Keep on digging'
Pig stain on your fat chin
What do you hope to find
Down in the pig mine?
You're nearly a laugh
You're nearly a laugh
But you're really a cry
Pink Floyd- Pigs
Greece knows that a trillion Euros are going to be printed.It's Europe's turn to print money now.You might as well stay at the pig-trough for more slop.It's easier that way.The Fed will be next to print once the EU is done and it'll be really big.We all know that it is printed fiat electronic garbage that can never be paid back unless they can all switch over and create severe hyperinflation.(But it'll all bust one day anyways).
Super Mario's QE excludes the purchase of Greek sovereign debt
There's nobody meaner for a serf than another serf. I'm form one of the so called PIIGS and I'm ashamed. For once, we seem to deserve that acronim.
Cable from America: Don't bow your head down in disgrace. It's the banking cartel dividing and separating to profit. When I drop words like Eurotrash, WH Nigger, and Zionist, it's directed towards the system, not the people. Always remember that. It's an attack on the political actors, not the people living in a despotism environment.
Cheer up, hope that helps you see thru the fog..
Bem-vindo a Zerohedge.
The Greek govt is no different than before, Pro-western and will not bail on the EU, more of the same, zero change, except they may try to collect some taxes for once. As much as greece should bail on the EU, it risks zero funding from abroad and even worse, if Greece pulls out or threatens, you can rest assure Turkey will try to take it over. So its either bite the bullet, bail on the $332bn and take your hardships now, or suffer the long road of debt opression which will inevitably lead to default and risk of invasion anyway, so do it now, or wait and be forced. I would rather get it over with
House of Cards would be proud
The cowardly behavior of the Syriza gang would be disappointing had it not been so obvious, even before the election, that they were completely full of shit and had no real intention of thwarting their teutonic overlords.
Campaigning on what you PROMiiSE to do is a lot more fun than deliver on those expectations
Look at Obama. The Euro-American left is a joke. What's Greek for Hope & Change?
What's Greek for Hopeless Chumps?
And you have made up your mind after they have been in power for 37 days...I strongly recommend you wait just a tad longer....But rest assure, I'm on the same page as you when it comes to them not delivering, we WILL kick them off the steering wheel faster then we got them there.
I love it when they eat each other, it is so poetic; such stories they tell.
Last time I eat something Spanish was a chorrisso...does that count?We are not eating each other my friend, quite the opposite actually.
SYRIZA and Tsipras are simply going head on with the pro-austerity governments of these Nations, on a social level is where the truth lies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_XbPY0nqVc
The squabbling between Greece, Spain and Portugal is easier to understand when one realises that they're all socialists. Fighting among themselves is what socialists do, caused by envy, jealousy and resentment.
Rajoy is is the Spanish equivalent of John McCain: a RINO. In Rajoy's case, he's a CINO: Conservative In Name Only. They're all Statists dedicated to an ever bigger, un-democratic Brussels bureaucracy.
You must be American...yes????
No.
"The squabbling between Greece, Spain and Portugal is easier to understand when one realises that they're all socialists"
this sentence is what makes you sound American, even more then your comparisons to American politics
"Rajoy is is the Spanish equivalent of John McCain: a RINO. In Rajoy's case, he's a CINO: Conservative In Name Only. They're all Statists dedicated to an ever bigger, un-democratic Brussels bureaucracy."
meaning he is not liberal (in the sense of being small-gov) enough, for your taste. now, where do you put Rajoy's fiscal conservativeness? and where do you see support for an ever bigger Brussels?
come on, you don't want to really look at the Continent. a typical British point of... non-view
PPL,please keep your eyes on the ball....You can not blame the poor Spaniards and Portuguese...they have yield to Germany long long time ago plus they have to protect them selves from Leftish uprising...it was expected and it has already been dealed with by us (The Greeks)...what you should be looking at and focusing on is ..TURKEY. ..."to be continued.."
so in this article we have again a few memes dear to some
starting with the lable PIIGS - who cares that it was a bankster inventing this quite offensive label
going on with the prejudice dear to some, i.e. that Germany makes all the calls in the EU
and then with the incomprehension of the conservative politics element in all EU countries, which is utterly disregarded
which then allows Tsipras to harp off a
"...leading a conservative conspiracy to topple his anti-austerity government, saying they feared their own radical forces before elections this year."
As a reminder, in the EU countries we do have conservatives, they are often the biggest party around, often bigger then the usually better networked social democrats, and yes, even fiscal conservativism is pushed
Further, yes, countries like Portugal, Spain, Ireland etc. do count. surprised? must be a conspiracy, Mr. Tsipras?
You've got admit though, it's catchy, it still raises a chuckle even now. It wouldn't do that if it held no veracity.
Shallow and dishonest people don't want to admit that the older people get the more they wake up to themself, through experience, that conservative approaches are more often than not the medium to long-term wisest approaches to human affairs, and most likely to continue to work to maintain civilisation and social and personal needs being met.
Tribal Elders are intrinsically conservative, and take a dim view of the destructive NET effect of impulsive acts within the tribe. They always look to the down the road effect and implications of every action taken upon the tribe to make sure the least harm is done, and the best opportunities will be more likely to develop.
I suppose Europe is heavily conservative because so many people saw in the flesh what can happen when you aren't sufficiently politically and socially conservative.
People who try to brand and dismiss conservative approaches as evil, synonymous with 'neocons', or as fascistic, generally don't know their ass from their elbow. Any real tribal Elder in earlier times would quietly tell a destructive person to get lost (i.e. shun and exile them), and they, and everyone else would know that coming back again, or just trying to stick around and ignore the conservative Elders, was invariably fatal.
People can spin it any way they want but conservative development of people, as they age and experience more of the failures of very bad ideas, propounded by fools, will not be going away.
Longer life leads to greater conservatism of attitudes, that is then undercut by decreasing vitality and independence of encroaching frailty with age, and the support required and given from the rest of the tribe ... whichis politically exploited by socialism today ... to undercut that conservatism.
How this conservatism is usurped and abused by cynical politicans and propagandists (often middle-aged power-grabbers) is 99.9% of the asserted problem of 'Conservatives'.
Conservativeness is a normal, central and essential aspect of all societies, and their stability and viability to endure, and always will be. It's incredibly immature and ignorant to asset it should be, nor can be removed, or that doing so would be in any way a clever idea. It is not "old fashioned", and thus not as good as the "new". That is incorrect, the older generation know there is nothing that is fundamentally new about now, it is only variations on earlier themes and fundamentally the same. Conservatism is developing within people continuously, as a natural intelligent product of living and learning.
So how can conservativeness be shallowly dismissed as "old fashioned", or presumed to be discard-able, as not 'new', so not relevant to now, when conservative views are constantly being renewed, by life itself, right now?
Doh!
Oh well, the abject political mantra that conservatism equates to fascist, and is outmoded, and thus not for now, will continue among the willfully ignorant and foolish.
(who paradoxically constitute the bedrock of all fascist and socialist ruin)
Element, the very article reminds us that Portugal, Ireland and Spain, i.e. three quarter of the original PIGS, have bluntly told Greece that there is no feeding through, anymore
but yes, I agree with your musing on conservatives. my emphasis on it is that the other meme in the English speaking world is that there are only socialists, here
there is one fundamental reason for that: our conservative parties are usually the straight thing, and then have one internal social-conservative and one liberal-conservative wing in them
the English-speaking world "conservative" means "liberal-conservative", in our continental context
a good example for that is how Cameron took his Torys out of the European People's Party, which is clearly not liberal /neo-liberal enough for his taste... and his hold on them
but one small disagreement with you: stress a conservative enough, and he will degenerate to (classic) fascism... with it's hate for liberalism of all kinds, to the point of being willing to adopt some socialist policies just to get rid of it
there are three ways: liberal, social and conservative. all three can lead to excesses (now I'd usually write something about balance, but I recently found out that this term has become another minefield because of it's recent misuse, somewhere)
have a nice day and don't fall off the planet, down there
"there are three ways: liberal, social and conservative. all three can lead to excesses (now I'd usually write something about balance"
Yeah, fascism is not politics, it is just violence to achieve policy ends, which any of the 'three' utilize, in as much as they dare.
Coitus interruptus, was still noodling away with the edit button, but was about done.
A rotating sphere has a shadow so it's have a good night and don't fall out of bed on to the ceiling.
PS: "there are three ways" is horribly reminiscent of Tony Blair's "Third way" campaign blather. You may want to re-frame that.
the subtle differences are that socialism gone bad results in communism, i.e. a completely statist totalitarian solution, conservativism gone bad results in classical fascism, a strongly totalitarian solution where the party dominates the state, the economy and the social parts and liberalism gone bad results in... money ruling everything. plutocracy
plutocracy gives a fig about the state, the social parts, even the economy, they can all be just bought. interestingly, plutocracy breeds mercenaries, which are it's weakest spot
the end of the Roman Republic? a squabble among plutocrats, each able to recruit legions of soldiers, when the legions of politicians and lawyers were not enough
the reason why there is always some politician reframing the Three Ways Of Looking At Politics is because it resonates among the people, particularly when too long being faced between two views only
it's the same as when someone comes with that other word, balance. too often misused
liberalism, conservativism and socialism, all three "colours" frame three valid groupings of interests and point of view
plutocracy, fascism and communism, on the other side, are about completely rejecting the interests of the other two
----
fascism (classic) is the rejection of liberalism and the capture of socialism, reframed
the national point of view has to reign supreme, and both the capitalist and the worker have to obey the national imperatives
communism is the rejection of liberalism and the capture of nationalism/conservativism, reframed
the worker is subjected to state guidance, which tries to get rid of the capitalist, while channeling nationalism into state communism and internationalism
plutocracy is the undermining of the nation and the state... if they are in the way, or can't be bought
the worker is someone else's liability, as well as the nation
the really funny thing about plutocracy is that it is nevertheless a branch of liberalism. it just puts more emphasis on capital then anything else, including... humanity
and so the anarcho-capitalist is it's ideological child, childish in it's thinking that it's so easy to get rid of social and national/conservative ties, or that they should not fight back
A quick take.
I think you don't understand, or at least properly acknowledge, the roots of fascism, in Italian Fascisti Party philosophy of violence as first resort to party member actions to obtain political and strategy objectives of the Fascisti Party.
That's not the way you color it.
To put it bluntly, it is the mentality of the prison yard applied to politics, society and industry which is systematically re-oriented for application of violence (gee, who's doing that these days?) and for levering international relations (kinetically).
It is innately self-destructive and unable to be sustained in its pure form, so has to be moderated as necessary in more advanced and subtle applications of the same basic policy implementation framework, of using whatever level of control and force required to reach political objectives.
All states of all three types use this, as much as they dare.
Neo-Nazi groups are just the unsustainable version, that people naturally flip-out about, but is only the tip of a vast moderated political iceberg.
I'll digest your other comments.
of course, +1. Violence is a very important part, and you can't understand Italian or even Polish or Spanish fascism without violence and "the strong man with a strong will"
even enemies of fascism in those times had to show off their manliness, for example by taking a bicycle ride across a continent
but this comes from the roots of nationalism and conservativism: human tribalism, "red in tooth and claw". the one that generates heroes, willing to sacrifice themselves, and even stay impassive when captured by a different tribe and subject to torture
nevertheless, the fascist arises when "dirty money" spoke too long, and too loudly, the capitalist is seen as the exploiter and the socialist looks like he could win, something that would further diminuish the status and power of the nation
ancient Athen's Thirty Tyrants, for example, were proto-fascists. they were 30 because there were 30 tribes, in Attica. conversely, Spartans were never anything else then old-fashioned tribalists, with men being in military camps from 7 to 30 years of age, and the Law telling them never to surrender
Astute, yes, that's where we're getting to.
Element...love your brain but sorry I will pass.
You see, in the world that I live, a country at the making of its existence will ship black people form Africa to gain free labor, will turn war to a commodity, ignore all international rules and regulations and it will become the richest Nation on the world....while the Elders of my tribe tried to find applicable forms of political systems such as socialism and capitalism.
Sorry I like the style of that other Nation and as such here is what I will do...
When everyone least expects it I will vote for a leftish goverment while the world has forgotten about it, I will then legalise all 3 million of illegal immigrants residing in my country and ship them over to my neighbors as legal EU citizens, I will brake the rules and allow Russian and Arab money, assets and interest to enter the EU economy and cutting the long story short I will do everything against the "rules" as that other Nation did.
I think it will work. Do you have a name for my political system?
PS: I like PIIGS ...who does not like bacon?
Your tribe? :-P
You were a difficult child I bet. :D
But point taken, cheers.
If Tsipras Really wanted to get out of the Eruo Why even Bother to talk to the EU ??
Simply Inform the Eurogroup of a Default on All Debt and a return to the Dracma ...
The problem with All Hyper-Keynesians like the current Varoufakis is that they always need others people money.
Their first proposal was a complete Joke ... They wanted Another Default, Even More money for a new govt based investment Super Plan ! Nothing but More Money printing ... More Government intervention and Massive EU funded mega projects!
They forgot to mention the that ALREADY happened in the EU ...
Theat is Actually HOW the EU Works .. a Giant SOviet Style MAchine to allocate cash from Bruxels ...
And that is waht FAILED miserably in the eU PROVING that Model is a Failure.
What Varoufakis proposed was Exactly that same model ... on turbo mode none the less!
If he was actually trying to Default ... the immidiate consequence was a Credit cutoff and a inevitable exit from the euro...
That Was NEVER in this government mind.
the Solution for all Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland problems is simple: MAssive Defaults! Get out of the Euro.
Kill the euro and all problems will be gone !
Social Democrats, Conservatives, Greens and Liberals of the different parties from the different countries are already organised on a EU level. And now a far-left party joins the club and can't find allies. That was to be expected. Tsipras would find an ally in Podemos, so what does he expect, how the government of Spain, that fears the rise of Podemos, would react?
you were going well until "Theat is Actually HOW the EU Works .. a Giant SOviet Style MAchine to allocate cash from Bruxels ... "
is it so? the EU get's roughly 1% of GDP from the member countries, and has a seven-year budget of one trillion. a balanced budget, to boot
you are projecting issues from somewhere else, methinks
You might come form a country used to its leaders promising one thing and delivering an other...I used to be from such country but I changed it recently.
Tsipras mandate was and is to get the country out of the TROIKA grip and austerity. It is not (YET) to take the country out of the EU and the EURO currency.
He is doing his job to the letter and when the time comes..if we give him an other mandate he will execute it.
Mandate=Etymology+="....a command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative...:"
according to the logic of this article and the situation.
nothing will change until every country in the eu, SPECIFICALLY FRANCE, has a total breakdown and are all on the same political page against germany.