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Can Greece "Just Print Drachmas"? Goldman Answers
A few days ago, in advance of the new Greek parliament throwing in the towel in its negotiations with the Eurogroup and conceding to virtually all demands, we showed what, in a worst case scenario, the new Greek currency would look like using data from a previous News247 report. Some of the proposed samples are shown below.
But how realistic is a Greek monetary conversion out of Euros and into a "Nea Drachma"?
For the answer we go to Goldman, which after late last week reported that the possibility of a Grexit is now substantially lower...
... the Greek government chose the solution that would be the least costly to the economy and the country overall – that of the acceptance of a mutually agreeable framework in order to continue negotiations for an updated Greek programme. And this rational choice is significant as it reveals the reaction function of Greek officials.
It also notes that "GRexit is not the binary event it is often portrayed to be. Transitioning from the Euro to a new national currency is no straightforward task either for Greece or for Europe to pursue."
Goldman then proceeds to explain "why Greece can’t just (re)introduce a national currency."
Here is the full take why, at least according to Goldman, Greece really has zero leverage even when threatening with a Grexit, something which after the February negotiations, it most likely will no longer do, at least until another, even more "radical" cabinet takes power.
Debt Unpaid is Not Debt Forgiven
One of the first and most important issues to understand is that Greek debt structure does not resemble that of other Euro-area nations. The loans given to Greece as part of a) the first Greek Loan Facility, b) the EFSF/ESM-funded second Greek programme and c) the IMF sum up to more than EUR200bn, or 2/3 of the Greek debt stock. For all intents and purposes, they are foreign treaties with other governments and failure to pay them does not lead to an automatic write-off, particularly as maturities of those loans are primarily 15-30 years in the future (except for IMF loans that mature in the years ahead). They also cannot be redenominated.
Furthermore, about half of Greece’s marketable debt of EUR66bn is in foreign law as a result of the PSI bond restructuring. There are also cross-default complications with the official sector as part of the co-financing agreement.
Overall, failure to meet obligations would not lead to a default and write-off of part of the debt stock. Instead, liabilities would most likely run in arrears that would need to be paid off before Greece could ever tap financial markets. And costly litigation would probably drastically reduce the flow of EUR funds in and out of the country.
There is of course the possibility of a mutual agreement on a write-off of a significant chunk of Greek debt following an exit. But that voluntary restructuring of official sector debt would require concessions on the Greek side. In the current Euro-area set up, this would probably involve a new MoU with fresh conditionality backing a “recovery” programme. And such an option is already on the table, at less punitive terms for the Greek economy. It may also take time to reach such a consensual agreement during which the Greek economy would come under severe strain.
Secluded from International Capital Markets, Greece would not be Able to Issue a Globally Traded Currency
With senior liabilities outstanding, Greece would be secluded from international capital markets. This would not just hold for the Greek government. It is likely that the implications touch the Greek private sector too, with Greek exporters and importers not being able to rely on letters of credit provided by Greek institutions. In such a case, Greek trade would collapse to the level that can be sustained by cash businesses in Euros.
Should a Greek currency be introduced following failure to pay, it would likely have very limited convertibility into Euros outside Greece. It would purely be a means of internal transactions, in all likelihood.
But is this an equilibrium solution for Greece? No. Because in such an event, it would be hard to convince even the Greeks to hold any drachmas. Put simply, while public sector employees, pensioners and government supply providers would be paid in drachmas (and be expected to pay part of their tax liabilities in the new currency), they would not be able to use that currency to buy imported goods. Exported goods would also become too valuable to be bought in drachmas, as they would correspond to hard currency receivables. Anticipating this, even providers of domestic services (taxi drivers, hairdressers etc) would avoid receiving payments in drachmas if possible.
If at all, the drachma would trade at a huge discount to the Euro. The economy would remain largely euro-ised but without a natural source of Euro-liquidity.
Drachma Would Prove An Unsustainable Means of Taxation
Ultimately as we discuss in our note with Huw Pill, it would be very hard for Greece to introduce a viable new currency unilaterally. Baring the complications of actually printing a new note, such a move would likely lead to a collapse in Greece’s international transactions and trade (both for the government and the private sector), would expose the country to litigation risks and trigger a significant destabilization of the banking system.
The only function of such a new currency would be to “tax” parts of the population that would not naturally receive hard currency as part of their payments structure. But that tax would not lead to a natural increase in government receivables as the economy (both the internal and the external economy) would shrink in a downward spiral.
The equilibrium outcome of such a situation would be a deep recession that would help build current account surpluses despite declining export activity. Once such recessionary surpluses were realized, a natural flow of hard currency would be established, which would help Greek authorities start meeting external financing requirements again.
As we conclude, we would like to point out that this is a highly theoretical exercise. We do not think that such an outcome is either desirable or feasible by the current Greek leadership. Instead, this exercise is meant to illustrate the strong disincentive for unilateral default and currency introduction from the Greek side.
In other words, sorry Greece: you are stuck: according to Goldman you can't go back to the Drachma, even if you wanted to.
And now, let's focus on the Greek government using the "far more sustainable means of taxation", the Euro, where the new (and all previous) governments have shown an amazing inability to actually collect.... regardless of what currency is used.
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A simple question for Goldman, does all this debt matter or not...?
tick tock motherfuckers...
Can Greece "Just Print Drachmas"?
Yes, we can! Lean forward! It's only fair ;-)
Looney
I love how goldman says "Is not automatically written off" and "cannot be redomininated".
Maybe they don't understand just what the chaos of a REAL crisis looks like. (WW1, WW2, and soon WW3)
Anyone can automatically write off any of their debts. All they have to do is say "Fuck you!". Its fairly easy.
correct, it's easy. living with the consequences... less so
of course the Greek government could float a new Drachma. Tsipras' government's problem is that the Greek electorate does not want it to do it
and of course it could be backed by something, for example with a temporary land expropriation the way the Germans did in 1923 for the Mark. it works, it has been done before
but, as Varoufakis himself pointed out, they would have preferred to find a national currency to devalue, instead of having to build one up from scratch so that they could then devalue it again
you know what? there is not only one Greek that thinks: "hey, see there, that euro-stuff works, even a Radical Left government has to balance budgets"
because it's all about that budget. the debt thing? pffhew! come on! look at the numbers, and look at the payment terms. it's all just blathering, it will be restructured at least five times until 2023, and all those still playing Kabuki in this know it, and know it well
The designers of those notes did not leave enough room for the addition of multiple zeros in future reprints.
"Instead, liabilities would most likely run in arrears that would need to be paid off before Greece could ever tap financial markets"
Solution: Greece could not pay these obligations and not tap financial markets, aka the Greek government could default and live within its means. Certainly a tough pill to swallow for the new socialist government but certainly doable even going back to their own currency.
There are no Jews working for Goldman. I trust them. They would never lie to continue their criminal counterfeiting operations. Never. No way.
So we have another exposed anti semite. Being Jewish has nothing do to with it. Being immoral or evil knows no race. Your example of racism is an example, unless you are Jewish, then I stand corrected.
Of course I'm ant-Semitic. The entire world is anti-Semitic. Now if you all were to give us our money printing presses back and stop taxing us, well then maybe the world will forgive you. Until then, you and your tribe of criminals will continue to meet resistance. Karma bitch.
There have been numerous instances in the past where nations have been invaded and occupied to force them to pay their debts. The French occupation of Mexico in the 1860s. And the US occupation of Haiti in the 1920s to collect non-US debt.
If you don't think it could come to that then think agian. German troops in Athens.
Maybe Putin should just assassinate the Goldman Sacs octupussy and be done with it.
Say he does. What happens next?
Greece will still be poor because it produces very little.
Greece allies with Putin. Putin announces Drachma-Ruble convertabilty, with a bunch of serious restrictions on the Greek government. Current debt is settled for a fraction of its value by the new Chinese development bank ( they have got to do something with all those fucking dollars they got stuck with ).
A gas pipeline is driven through Greece, with the Greek government being given a cut, which is used to directly service the debt with China.
German troops in Athens!
As a proud Irishman I'd gladly hop on a boat to help expunge those fuckers from Greece.Aint never gonna happen.lots of deep memories of the last time
How about French occupation of the German Ruhr post WWI. That worked out pretty well.....
Thats fantastic. Kill all the usurers. That ought to help a bit. Yet the very next day Greece will still need hard currency to pay for imports.
Or something to barter for, for those who think it all ought to be solved by barter. What does Greece to offer to the world?
We all know how you feel about the kikes but calm down and write something related to the topic. People like you post nothing but "Kill the Kikes!" on every thread. Even if a good idea, it is often unrelated.
Hmm, olives, fantastic tourism, Munny laundering services, Gaz pipeline(s), Foreign (Russian, Chinese) military bases, no more NATO obligations, no (Golmon Sucks!) middlemen, in short, there are options, they just don't benefit the current creditors!
jews aren't semites
Khazars.
Khazars.
pretty sure the Isrealites, including the tribe of Judah are descendents of Shem... Not sure that all these folks masquerading behind the word Jew are of the tribe Judah. Pretty sure the Gnostics were in league with the Talmudic freak show, no??
Well, you've got to go back to the Babylonians, and whoever they learned from.
Large parts of Genesis were plagarized from the Sumerians, the Ten Commandments were plagarized from the Babylonians (Hammurabi's Code).
Love your Creator, love your neighbor, works for me. Everything else, not so much.
if they find themselves "willing to live within their means"... then why go the hard way of default? again, the number never mentioned is how much that debt costs per year, until 2023
the truth is that the other FinMins of the EuroGroup are financing three quarters of that debt... for nothing, until then
seen this way, in 2015 the "acting" debt-to-gdp of Greece (on the markets, mind) is around 40%
no wonder that the Portuguese, the Spaniards and the Irish grumble, in the direction of the new chiefs in Athens
Because they can't service the debt, with out the debt service costs the govt would have an easier time functioning under its tax collection. The bailouts, for the most part go right back to the creditors in the form of debt payments, not to the greek govt/people.
Usury is mathematically unpayable. A kindergartener can understand that. To stay in the Euro would be financial and moral suicide.
They will stay in the Euro then.
Greece and the rest of the PIIGS will be used as the scare tactic to force the Fdeeralization of Europe which has been the goal of the Euro fromt he beginning.
The schemers have always wanted a centralized government for he continent and they will get one.
Yes.
The Greeks don't have to issue Drachmas to live within their means. They can just start using Russian rubles as currency within Greece. Russia will lend Rubles to Greece on condition that Greece defaults on all foreign debts (does not use the Rubles to pay debts but only for current account). Public servants and pensioners get paid in Rubles. Foreclosures of real estate need government permission, and is usually denied.
And how does Greece pay back Russia?
Hmm, Gaz pipeline(s), military base(s) -- accomodations can be made...
One other "feature" of the Greek debt held by the various EuroZone financing entities is that Greece receives a refund of the difference between the coupon rate and the actual ECB financing costs. That was the source of the EUD 10 billion payment to Greece mentioned as part of the Trioka workout.
The Greek problem is not so much related to current debt service, it is related to continuing to operate as a Free Stuff Country.
Goldman forgot to point out that they and their clients hold Greek debt paper yielding +10%. You would think that those rates suggest some sort of risk in this day and age. No risk for Goldman though.
It's no wonder I am becoming increasingly anti semetic.
Living within their means means poverty. Its what they refuse to accept.
Poverty is what you get when your Jewish regime (pretending to be your government) tells you that the imaginary debt on some random Monopoly Money is real.
Wealth and freedom is what you get when your country is free of parasites, and your currency (which reads "We the People") is issued debt-free and placed into circulation at the bottom f the economic pyramid in the form of jobs, and allowed to trickle up nested of the other way around.
Thats fantastic. Now tell me how will greece pay for future imports to avoid the unavoidable long term poverty it is facing?
They can default tomorrow and relieve themselves of that burden. Yet they still need to import.
Import grains, oil, machinery.
How will they pay for it all? Uh? Kill all the jews and usurers, fine. How will they pay for future imports?
They cant. It does not matter of they keep using euros, issue drachmas or gold coins. They have little to offer to the world and trade, being an issue of equilibrium , dictates the world has little to offer Greece. And will remain as such for the near future.
Its not so great for many Greeks on the streets now. It is possible that being largely locked out of imports can rebuild the domestic economy with a bit of grit and a knack of keeping things going and rebuilding self reliance. There is always a way to purchase oil etc. If anything the current east/west pivot could play to their advantage. The main risk is a likely false flag event, they are already living with soaring prostitution forced by ponzi economics.
Always a way of purchasing oil? How? By sheer willpower? I suppose something will be offered as payment?
I suppose they could rent their coast to the Russians and Chinese to put a bunch of bases. That will buy them oil.
What else?
Traditional greek self reliance is an euphemism for poverty. Charming poverty i guess, with scenic views, cute villages and donkey carts.
Have you ever lived through sanctions? There is always a way, it is always to someones advantage to trade or barter in some form.
I have, actually. And it does not matter if you use euros, bitcoin, gold or barter. You need something to barter, or to sell for money.
Greece needs to sell something. Or to barter something. It is essentially the same thing, except that in barter Jews dont skim a few pennies off each transaction. It matters little for Greece as they dont have enough to sell or barter.
If you really have lived through sanctions then you know just how damn resourceful folks get (which seriously upsets the overloads of the CBs and threatens their access to resources including ports). The creative financial engineering employed to get Greece to qualify for the EU is a big tell sign that it was & is being undervalued and was rapidly papered over in debt...smells like entrapment.
There are so many details we'll never fully know, I'm not picking a fight - I'm am just so tired of the mafia tactics of the CB owners, they can never ever let a street corner buck the system (I am paraphrasing Catherine Austin-Fitts here but I found her analogy impressively apt). Unfortunately nation after nation has become a street corner and would rather live that way than fight. We prefer the farce of word games, accept the rule of unelected central banks and think that controlled voting will count.
Just look at the world map and count the number of democratic nations in debt - go back a few decades, their debt was often low & stable but somehow so many have consistently soared in debt obligations in recent decades ensuring just about every street corner is owned (obstinate ones have been bombed).
Greece is merely a symbol, its not even a front runner sadly.
The design sucks, not enough breasts and bikinis on them to want 'em.
These are only the rough drafts. The final product will be 'tourist friendly' . . .
Yes. That is why calling new loans for Greece is the ultimate Intelligence Operation.
But it is not the only country subject to these Intel-Ops.
The scale of Deception is Grand, not World War Grand, but silent coup of a national banks "Grand".
- Teeth Out
All 287 countries have "intelligence agencies" whose objective is to maintain its criminal loan-debt, all encompassing tax, propaganda and counterfeiting operations.
A 3 day bank holiday would do it. Initial conversion of EURO to New Drachma at 1 to1 for accounts in Greek banks and Greek banknotes (those with a Y before the serial number). Then devaluation of New Drachma at wish.
Ghordo, I get the whole concept of "living with consequences." We all do here.
Just one question- how many generations have to live with those consequences? Sure, fuck the current generation of Greeks, they get what they deserve. I could probably live with that. But what about their children? Or grandchildren? How far does that concept go?
DEBT DOESN'T DIE BUT PEOPLE DO. At what point does "living with consequences" just turn into debt slavery? Thank God, I'm not responsible for the private debts of my parents after they pass away. But this isn't private debt.
Failing to recognize unpayable debt and write it off is akin to supporting slavery. If that concept offends someone, I offer no apology.
Greece can default and start over using euros or drachmas. Or gold. Does not matter. They still need hard currency to pay for imports and in the same amounts.
Greece is poor because it is not industrialized.
No, troll, the people are poor because of their parasitic politicians. Parasites, like you for example, need to be put behnd bars or dealt with Putin style.
Idiot. Greece may not be industrailized due to its corrupt politicians but the end result is that due to a lack of industry it is poor.
Why is greece not industrialized? That is a different topic. I mention the simple, elementary fact that greece is not industrialized and therefore poor and face jail and death threats!
Why are you accusing me of being a parasite? Jesus!
Ok, so write off the debt. THEN WHAT?
What do they do when they can't get more debt to balance their massive budget deficit, even after wiping out their debt service? Because, you realize they still can't balance their budget? Do you think capital markets will lend to them after they repudiate their current obligations? They can't print - and devalue - currency unless they go off the Euro, so what do they do?
They will have austerity, self imposed or capital markets imposed. There is no other way out.
NoDebt, I think Apocalicious gave the right answer
at what point is "living within your means" a "fuck the current generation of Greeks"? the big difference is interest on the debt, and debt repayment
frankly, I don't think Greece will do much about either. the current debt is interest-free, and because of it's size, it will have to be restructured a few times until 2023
again, I see many here engaged in a huge issue projection game
In the US, any attempt to balance the budget is labeled as right wing extremism. They want to shut down the Govt!!
Ive never seen an attempt to balance the federal budget, perhaps you mean rhetoric, which is disingenuous at best
But, but Clinton said . . .
Ghordius, you keep repeating this mantra about "balanced budgets", and I really appreciate your optimism, but let me tell you something. There is no chance that the budget of Greece will ever be "balanced". The anaemic surpluses of the past two years were only possible by the state delaying payments of government contracts to the private sector, passing pension funds deficits to the following year, taxation to the limits (and beyond if you take into account that about 40% of taxes imposed last year is now unpaid and overdue), and other gimmicks which are very similar to the "non-GAAP" gimmicks of Wall Street to present endless money-pits as cash-cows.
So the new government will include in the "balanced" budget as an example the billions it prays to get from taxing the rich, which they can't really, and will ask the EU to NOT include in this "balanced" budget a few billion of public infrastructure spending.
And all this, hoping that the budget might some day be magically balanced by "growth" in a world which is increasingly moving into deflation and recession with not much of a way out.
Of course, who could possibly say no to balanced budgets? Or to a seducingly speaking Finance Minister (there was an interview today on this News247 site, about a US porn producer who found Varoufakis to be "hot" - kind of shows the level of journalism as well). It's all nice talk to get the Europeans to give more money, and at best shave off some of the debt, so that we can borrow again as the "free" world does.
P.S. I also noticed I'm putting too many words in quotes, but then again, how can someone mention that this and that and the other are simply lies?
All the best.
The whole premise of this article is backwards...the article should have been
why Greece can’t just (re)introduce a national currency and maintain the existing status quo.
but if the status quo is not the goal, then they could at least attempt it at some level...albeit disruptive.
From a risk mitigation perspective, the lesson to be learned here is to NEVER put all your fiat in one basket....If Greece had maintained a basket of currencies (even if the basket only had 2 coins in it) they would not be in this position.
So Goldman is really saying, the only way out of this mess for Greece is to buddy up to Russia and China
The real question is "How much is it worth to Russia for the geopolitical asset Greece would bring...as a future offset to a rising Turkey threatening Russia's interests (e.g. the Danube markets - Bulgaria and Romania)?"
Enough to pay the whole debt?
...Would be easy to do...and become a stand against the USSA MIC...
"Goldman says..."
I'd take anything GS says with a big pinch of salt. They're probably shitting in their pants thinking of a possibility of a Grexit, and there's probably more commissions to be made if Greece stays in the Euro.
Let us not forget who fucking helped Greece hide their debt to begin with
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted...
Always get a kick out of hearing that things which were done well a generation ago cannot possibly work now. Kind of reminds me of the whole "not enough gold to use it as money" argument.
The arguments made by the psychopaths of finance always hinge on the carefully selected facts of the moment and appeal to authority and nothing else.
Ahem, Greece was poor a generation ago.
Greece's mistake was bringing anyone related to Goldman in any way in to manage anything.
X Goldman employee involved.
Their fingerprints are all over this catastrophy.
Demonic beings
It may have been a tragic decision for the Greek polulation, but is certainly wasn't a mistake.
I love how GS and its true owners are able to "Frame & Define the Argument", w/o anyone (except a few) calling "BS!" on them.
I call "BS!"
1. Debt created on a fraudulent basis is invalid and noncollectable.
2. 'Debt' based on cost-free creation basis (No Resources, Energy or value-add human Labor was involved), i.e. Debt-out-of-thin-Air can be and shall be repaid in kind: Fiat Currency. It shall not be repaid in Real Assets, since the original Debt was not created by or backed by real assets.
3. Since "Possession is 9/10ths of the Law", good luck with 'collecting', GS et al.
p.s. Remember Iceland. Else remember Bastille Day.
"Molon labe" might be an appropriate motto for the Greeks, when it comes to collecting said 'Debt' via real asset sales or 'transfer'/confiscation.
great response, kirk, good to see you again.
Tell them b*ast*rds in Belgium to take a hike.
FUCK GOLDMAN AND SACHS...
DEATH TO THE MONEYCHANGERS.
Wait, Goldy saying Greece 'can't just re-denominate'? Hmm, what side of trade you think they're on?
It appears she's facing Germany. Any significance to that Banzai7? :-)
Why do I feel the same way as when I hear an old joke with the straight man "setup" but now with a Banzai7 "knockdown"?
I need either a rimshot or a laugh track from the "filmed in front of a live ZH audience"... or both.
Just how Golden Sacks and the other central bank firms like it. Fuck the goyim!
The funny thing is, at least here in the US with regard to people, those who declare bankruptcy are often showered with credit offers soon after because the law won't let them declare bankruptcy again for several years.
If Greece were to repudiate its debt and create a currency 'devalued' relative to other currencies I suspect after a while many companies will flock to Greece to take advantage of the freshly buried corpse.
Personally I always thought Greece was too expensive for me to visit, see the Islands, Stay in Hotels, Eat in the Restaurants, and... explore the night life.
The country would change if they had a devalued currency... but maybe it would help even if immigrants came in to handle the cheap end of Hotels, Restaurants, Night Life, Discos, and Entertainment.
I will never buy an Island or even visit otherwise... no chance. The Thailand of the Mediterranean... controversial for sure.
agreed. free of the euro, greece could make itself very attractive to tourists again...and since the market for feta exports is limited, this would likely be their best bet. it would be initially tough to get along with the big banks snubbing you, but with a flood of tourist hard cash (dollars, euros, kruggerands) coming in it wouldn't last long.
They dont need to get rid of the euro to offer cheap vacations. You can pay for a cheap vacaction in euros, just not that many.
Devalued currency=Instant poverty.
They could also keep using euros, gold or whatever strikes them fancy but in small amounts as in earning 300 euros a month. They will become poor and remain poor until they start exporting more.
Cheap vacations=Cheap hotel workers.
I just have a most general perception of the issues, but I think the world at large is looking for a wat to break out of the bankers mess. Pepe Escobar's latest article points in that direction, while little mention is made in the media of the numerous deals that are taking place
While the king of the jews addresse congress, on purim, to get the US to destroy Iran Chinese FM visits to make deals for integratioon and Russia is busy building nucelar plants.
It's beyond insane. Need I add that Israel is buying oil from Iran while Saudi Arabia, and other 'allie' are funding ISIS?
RE
Cliffs: "Greece can't do so because if they did, then all of our Euro derivative bets go sour, and we will then have to get bailed out (again)."
I disagree. They would say that Greece is not allowed to default, hence a "non-event" and the derivatives wouldn't trigger. They would change the rules and nothing would happen.
After all the years learning and studying everything ZH discusses, the one thing that amazes me is that 'people' still invest in CDS. There is no way in hell any 'default' will be allowed to trigger.
People throw money at the greatest of risks - big money - but buying CDS just seems light years more stupid. Unless CDS purchases show up somewhere as 'assets', I just don't get it.
Well, I do understand spending OPM, and the skim it generates . . .
Much of the economy is based on future earning and continual growth. It is a ponzi scheme. But if you're in that money game you have no choice but to play along until the music stops. (Que in the sound of two billion 40 cal rounds going off.)
And the vampire squid comes in to tell it's tale.
Greece could tomorrow tell the EU to fuck the hell off and they aren't paying them. And there is no recourse for this. Sovereign debt is unsecured.
Goldman just wants to keep it's blood funnel in Greece a while longer.
Maybe they can get Hank Paulson to give a tanks in the streets speech to scare them because as it is now, it does not look like most Greeks are living high on the hog.
Wait till Greece is sucked dry, Goldman will move on to Italy. Sweet sweet Italian blood.
pods
As usual, the opposite of what GS says is true. It's the perfect contrarian indicator, if it ever was one...
Too much garlic . . . Keeps the monsters away.
Or so they say.
Too much garlic . . . Keeps the monsters away.
Or so they say.
I think Greece would get the green light from world e onomy controller GS to print as much as they want as long as the funny money is going into US American stawks.
shut down all the banks, make them illegal.........
introduce debt-free money and interest free credit
whats the worse that can happen?
The establishment of a bona-fide MERITOCRACY?
I'd reckon the worst would be CIA/MIC invasion of your country on the pretext of ISIS, Extra-terrestrials or athlete's head. Though I'd readily like to see such sanity come into the world. Of course, the criminally insane would vigorously oppose it.
But seriously folks, remember when (not so very long ago) people did in fact produce most or all of their country's needs? It's not that small of a country to be unable to support itself. They can still fish, grow food. And yes, I'd only see this issue sending them into the waiting arms of the BRICS.
My gut feeling is that Varoufakis (sp? fin-min guy) is probably the inside guy who's going to try and keep them under the bankster yoke, despite whatever rhetoric Tsipras believes or merely spouts.
it would be very hard for Greece to introduce a viable new currency unilaterally
Greeks will be slaves forever without the drachma. Make sure that you serve your masters from Northern Europe well when they come for vacations - no spitting in their food.
Unpayable debt is your eternal slavery. Welcome to the world of magical fiat where wars are won without firing a shot.
Want your mind blown WATCH THIS MOVIE! Ring of Power full length VATICAN RULES the PLANET!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GNckSJxFJQ
Yes, under the following circumstances:
http://x2t.com/17/grexit
I'm sure the "First International" (b)RIC(s) bank will help them out.
A declaration of intent by Goldman, on behalf of all the tribal banks, that they will do everything possible to obstruct Greece's inevitable return to it's own currency. Time for Greece to realign with the BRICS world grouping.
Well, at least Greece has Goldman's terrible record of predictions on its side.
Just as the fall of East Germany instantly doomed every communist prison state, the fall of Greece would seal the fate of every democratic social welfare state. This means the rest of the E.U. is extremely motivated to give Greece another bailout, while telling their own overtaxed voters that it's just a temporary measure.
I think the Greeks know this, but it any case, standing on the precipice threatening to jump, thereby pulling everyone else over with them, is the only strategy they've got.
+1000
Exactly right. In nearl all the comments to screw the bankers Greece's actual problem of spending far more than it collects in taxes is ignored. This is the source of the problem, not Goldman Sachs or Germany or some exterior cabal.
They have the same ultimate problem of all socialist-collectivist states. It is easy and popular to give away (other people's) stuff and much harder to get it. You promise more than you collect which wins many elections.
GS and others come in by invitation to fill the gap.
Russia seems to be helping an EU friend......
Russian airline to start Moscow-Malta servicehttp://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20150228/local/russian-airline-to-start-moscow-malta-service.557857
Fuck the robber baron Gollum Sacks. Greece should just extend their middle finger to them all. They will suffer but eventually they'll pull themselves out and start to rebuild. A thousand mile journey begins with the first step.
The debt is not owed just to Goldman. It is guaranteed through the wonders of government and an international currency by the other citizens of Europe. To give the finger to Holdman is to tell all the other citizens of Europe to eat the losses.
The truth is that Greece may actually be bankrupt and incapable , shirt of a miraculous economic explosion to pay the debts. Sometimes doctors have to hand out a bad diagnosis
I wasn't suggesting that by saying fuck gollum sacks was referring to any debt owed to them. It was a general fuck off for being such a douchebag, muppet looting, piece of shit company in general. Scum from the top to the bottom, with the exception of maybe the janitorial staff.
I'm sure I read on ZH that the Bank of Iraq managed to introduce their new currency in 3 months.
It isn't the big deal GS is making it out to be.
Iraq has more wealth that Greece.
Perhaps, but most of it is buried in the ground.
not if China/Russia and the BRICS accept it. That would throw a wrench into the Euro engine.
Gee thanks Goldmansteinbergowitzbaumfeld. Now where's the technical analysis on how you cooked Greece's books and bribed their officials to get them into the jaws of the Euro in the 1st place?
the Goldman deal...( They wouldn't be talking their book now would they?)
" George Alogoskoufis, who became Greece’s finance minister in a political party shift after the Goldman deal, criticized the transaction in the Parliament in 2005. The deal, Mr. Alogoskoufis argued, would saddle the government with big payments to Goldman until 2019."
Arrest Lloyd Blankfein
Wow. Slaves forever. They can never pay back in any circumstance.
What don't they understand about "You can't get blood from a turnip?"
They have already defaulted.
Credit event, BITCHEZ.
Be done with this.
Stop trying to keep it propped up and controlled.
Let it fail you nasty Frankenstein stitching, Necromancering, Zombie Making, Motherfuckers!
Anybody that knows anything knows exactly what you are saying. It sounds so simple, and it is. The issue is the creditors who own the politicians and will not let it happen. There will need to be blood on the streets. The slaves in the US were not completely free until blood was spilled, and this is not different.
What a most interesting frog. Cute bio.
Emmmmmmmmmmm........The BRICS deveopment bank would beg to differ!
I like the 100 and the 500
definitely the 500. what a stunning woman! i bet she was an awesome kisser...
seriously, the only viable 'solution' is for Germany to leave the euro, back onto the DM...then the rest of the the latins can devalue it away, make everything cheap to US/UK/DM/CHF/JPN/Kr etc and actually get some economic activity, as opposed to the continued puppet show of accounting legerdemain
The German government's owners will not let this happen.
Actually the only viable solution to German domination of Europe is Russian conquest and Russification of Germany, and the building of a free, prosperous Eurasian Union on the ruins of the Fourth Reich.
Ah, call me stupid. But give away your Sovereignty and become a debt slave to the masters of the universe, apparantly forever. Fucking brilliant.
I know, man. The US is totally screwed. Oh wait
It is funny how GS says any new local local currency won't be convertible, i think they will find the market (black or otherwise) will very quickly repudate that claim.
Even worse what if the Greeks went down the bi metallic route, i can guarentee they would be immediately convertible into any other fiat currecy on earth.
Bring back the Electrum Drachma!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are right. It is hard ball. They play hard ball as long as they can and that gets maximum revenue till a write off or a break away currency.
And with Argentine you see US & IMF/WB members will play hard ball even after a default or country exit. But Iceland creates a new paradigm.
Business is like looking in the eye of your war time enemy and negotiating with him. Hard Ball. Lies, Deception, and State Sponsored Fraud. The State will repeat the message that there can be no haircuts, not write offs, negotiation with the Germans is impossible... blah blah.
BS. It is Business. Like dealing with a Jeweler.
Now you know with 100% certainty the Drachma is back.
what is the difference between
greek printed paper or euro printed,
or the rest? people are infatuated
with the print till they aren't.
the bankers don't get their own
stupid joke.
they tried the same "no way out central bank" logic with Iceland.
Iceland lives!
So will Greece.
Iceland is much smaller, and has no army to speak of.
That, and only British and Dutch proles lost any money in Icelandic banks. Certainly nobody who mattered.
They should arrest some bankers starting with GS. Why anyone plays nice with them is just stupid. Of course Greece can issue their own Dracma for use in country. As long as the Greek people are willing to use it. Why not just dole it out.
People will use what they must for money. Look what happened to zimbabwaee after their currency was destroyed (by their govt). They just used a basket of different currencies (including euros). The govt can stop step aside and get out of the money creation business entirely, a suitable private alternative will surely emerge.
BTW Goldman, the Greeks don't need forgiveness from you or anybody else. Why not just write off the debt as uncollectable and ruin their credit rating.....which is probably the best thing that could happen for a debtor since they have shown no ability to handle debt...DON'T GIVE THEM ANYMORE!!!!!!
Gee, I dunno, because more than half the banks in the EZ would go boom?
and the downside is?? oh,.. except for the world running blissfully into the arms of the next supergiant global squid
ANY CONTRACT can be amended by consent of the parties.
Is Goldman hiring paralegals from the local community college as senior legal advisers, or is Goldman talking its (or an important client's) book?
Why do Goldman's meat puppets continue to pay for such crappy commentary - surely some of them have a basic grasp of law?
Of course the debt can be re-denominated, and of course the Troika doesn't want the debt to be re-denominated, but that is a lessor cost than outright and permanent default with zero recovery.
= asking the guys who bent you over the barrel if you can get off now
You mean "get up now" unless you are going to beat off I guess.
Can Greece just print Drachmas and introduce in to the economy? Yes, of course they could do this. The problem is that even the current government, just elected in a wave of dissatisfaction amidst promises that their debt slavery would end, does not represent the people of Greece. They represent the Greek Oligarchs and the EU as a whole. The same people that sold the citizens of Greece down the river when Greece joined the EU, are still behind the scenes running the show. Any attempt to introduce a new currency and end their slavery, will be met by a very harsh and brutal government crackdown. That's just how it works slaves!
Borrow a trillion Euro and buy gold with it, default on the debt and print her own gold-backed currecy.
It seems that all soveriegn nations forget that they are sovereign nations, and have a death grip on the credit tit.
Came from the Med to make a start
Came from the Med to make a Fart
Got my Education to make the Spark
Trained my Thoughts on the Ancient Art
Banking makes us come together
Take it now or leave it forever
Jump the Industry make it big
Jump my Bitchez and pull the trig
Got my people & got the crowd
Starin up the faith & make the wow'
Take the people with the plan
Got my bank and got my Land
Looks like terror
Loooks like shit
Gimme a donnation
Or get a fat lip
Drench up the past
Or Drench up the Shit
Give me your support
Or give me some tit
Layin the Animals
Or Layin the Bitch
Got no Platform
and got no Pitch
My people are drones
They got no Wits
They got fewer homes
and bull for shits
Lay out the numbers
Lay out the man
I ain't got no Magic
and I ain't got no Jam
Damn the Fuckin' Lyin'
Damn the Fuckin' Jive
Make the Bankers Pay
Make the Bankers Dive
You Give people Power
You Give people Choice
Frickin' want No Shower
Mother F'in Rolls Royce
- I don't know sort of unplanned random poem
The sovereignity is limited. Sovereign states cannot pay for imports with their own fiat, nor can they set an exchange rate that significatively differs from the market value. You can pay greeks with Drachmas but foreign suppliers have no reason to accept it.
Yanis Varoufakis, the new Finance Minister of Greece, has a very interesting view of how the current global economic problems developed and why they continue to get worse instead of better. He uses a mythical metaphor to explain why the U.S. is primarily responsible for the state of the global economy. Interesting. He calls it "The Global Minotaur."
http://www.globaldeflationnews.com/the-global-minotaur-a-global-finance-...
James Bond: "Do you Expect Me to Talk?"
Evil Bank: "No, Mister Bond, I expect you to DIE."
Translation of goldman horseshit:
We are sitting on significant exposure to Greek debt.......DEAR GOD!! DON'T LET THEM DEFAULT NOW!!!!!
Oh no. This is a thinly veiled death threat. If Syriza attempt to Grexit, Syriza will be overthrown and liquidated so fast your head will spin. Simple as that.
Think Goldman won't have people killed to make an example of them? Shit, they'll probably put the footage of the lynchings on Youtube---and the footage of whatever they decide to do to Danae on Youporn.
Or don't tell me you really believe only Putin does that?
<SARC>
GS BS. New currencies will be in units of gold, silver, milk, eggs, meat and cheese.
No Banksters needed.
</SARC>
Why do any of you need to even consider Goldman or anyone else. Just think of yourself.
If Greece went to their own national currency, would you take it? And at what price?
My answer, in order for me to take drachmas, Greece would have to pay a high price. Then there is the fact that Greece would still have to convert their own currency to Euros or US dollars for international trade.
Until that debt is wiped out, Greece is like an American with a credit score of 100 trying to buy a brand new house with no credit. Not likely to happen. And if it does happen, it will be at usury interest rates which they can't afford which is the same situation they are in now. They need to simply default - go bankrupt and demand the debt be wiped out. They will pay higher interest rates in the short term for a while, but they will be better off in the long run.
Notice how they talked about providers of domestic services, such as the parliament cleaning ladies, refusing to accept drachmae. Why, the poor darlings might even go back to picketing!
Possibly using the more serious possibility of wholesale desertion and mutiny in the armed forces of the Hellenic Republic reminded someone too much of "Ukraine," where people on Wall Street actually run a risk of not being made whole by whatever replaces the Kiev fascists.
But that, bluntly, is Syriza's real problem. Austerity is for proles, not the big men with guns. Most of the bailout money that didn't go to foreign banks went into the pockets of army officers, whose jobs could not be more secure.
Grexit would quite literally be suicidal for Syriza. The army's response to Syriza's being daft enough to try paying them in worthless drachmae would be to overthrow Tsipras et al. and kill them. Simple as that, end of story, no euphemisms about the girls who empty the bins necessary.
This. article is poppycock. "They would not be able to use that currency (Drachmas) to buy imported goods." Obviously not written by anyone with even the smallest experience of living in a country with a very weak currency. Even in Zimbabwe, there always existed the facility, official or blackmarket, to convert Zim dollars into hard currency and buy oneself a Mercedes. Often, this situation jump starts businesses into producing substitution goods that previously have been imported out of laziness: one thinks of Chinese crap, much of which could easily be made locally.