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Russia Warns NATO: Any Threat In Ukraine Will See Military Response
As Russia announces the expansion of its Navy by 50 vessels this year, including two new nuclear-powered submarines and an aircraft carrier, it appears NATO's sabre-rattling has drawn a response/threat/warning. Following British plans to send military 'advisers' into Ukraine (which NATO has stated are not confirmed), TASS reports, Russia's NATO envoy, Alexander Grushko, warns Russia will take all measures against possible NATO threat in Ukraine, adding that Russia’s response may include military measures.
NATO has taken no decisions on sending British or any other instructors to Ukraine, Russia’s Ambassador to the North Atlantic Alliance Alexander Grushko said on Monday.
"NATO has taken no decisions on sending instructors," he told the Rossiya 24 television channel. "NATO is implementing the decisions that were taken at the political level at the Wales summit in September 2014."
Moscow will take all measures, including military-technical, to neutralize possible threat from NATO presence in Ukraine, he added.
* * *
And this is happening as Russia dramatically expands its military forces. As The Moscow Times reports,
The Russian navy will receive 50 vessels of various sizes and classes this year, navy Chief Admiral Viktor Chirkov was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency on Monday.
The new boats are part of a rearmament program begun under President Vladimir Putin that aims to provide Russia with a navy capable of operating far away from home — a capability lost after the collapse of the Soviet Union — by 2050. Russia's navy today is largely relegated to a coastal defense role.
"The period of stagnation in the development of our potential has long since passed," Chirkov said.
* * *
And here is The West's defence...
* * *
Of course all this military machismo comes as Russia and Ukraine hold emergency talks in Brussels over gas supply amid imminent cutoff threats for non-payment. As AP reports,
Russia and Ukraine's energy ministers are holding emergency talks after the Russian gas supplier said it would cut off deliveries to the war-torn country as soon as Tuesday if it does not get new payments.
The European Union, which is mediating the talks in Brussels hoping to keep gas flowing despite the dispute, imports around 40 per cent of its gas from Russia, half through conflict-torn Ukraine.
Kyiv and Moscow have fought out several gas price wars over the past years and concerns are mounting that any fresh cuts could again hit European supplies.
Cash-strapped Ukraine is struggling to buy time and made a $15 million payment last week, but Moscow says that will cover only a day's worth of gas, leaving a potential cutoff looming Tuesday.
Arriving for talks with his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Demchyshyn and the European Union's energy chief Maros Sefcovic, Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak acknowledged the "need to resume an energy dialogue."
Russia has said that it will cut supplies unless Kyiv pre-pays for gas it wants to use. Ukraine, meanwhile, accuses Russia of failing to abide by its contractual obligations.
Complicating the dispute are deliveries to Ukraine's rebel-held east, where fighting between Kyiv's forces and Russia-backed rebels has killed nearly 5,800 people.
Kyiv cut gas supplies to rebel-held areas last week, prompting Russia to pump gas there directly. Russia said those deliveries should be counted in gas exports to Ukraine.
* * *
"Peace Deal"?
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Anyone like plutonium tea?
We behave like a drunken and abusive obese idiot at the bar who eventually gets knocked out cold by a little guy.
Getting more and more exceptional, ain’t we? ;-)
Looney
"NATO has taken no decisions on sending instructors,"----- that's b/c they are probably already there.
As i watch a seious about Russia underground military bases that were in Ukrain unbelievable that we are picking a war with Russia cant we just get along.... Peoples greed is amazing this dosnt have to happen
Two wife beaters in a lesbian marriage.
Hey Phantom, the best part is, that not only are the NATO instructors in the Ukraine, but the US Air Force Generals commanding the Ukie Fascist forces got their asses kicked really hard in Debaltsevo.
Even when managing the Ukie Ork forces, the USSA cannot win against the novo rossiyans, much less the Russian Regular's. This is why the USSA poodle, led by their M15 Masters, needed to kill Nemstov, as a diversion from their failures, and to keep the pressure on Putin.
LL- It doesn't matter who the West sends, the rebels are fighting for their land and way of life, the poor Ukie conscipts are fighting so they don't get thrown in jail by a gov't that would gladly sacrifice their lives to consolidate their power.
My money is on the former.
Broken promises, broken families, hyperinflation, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Vng_GGX6F9A&li...
looks like karma's catching up with the ruble today. oh happy day
toilet paper just got cheaper
What do you care, Mister Kittycat? You crap in a box and wipe with your tongue.
Pathetic, pendragon.
Truly. So you are a cheerleader for the Central Banking Cartel. We get that...
The Zionist Bankster Agenda is quite disgusting. It really is, but nothing compared to the Talmudist Beliefs!
p.s. Can I just say, though I am Jewish, I'm part of the Torah Clan, and reject ZIONISM and TALMUDISM.
Hi Phantom
agreed. The west will never win against russians fighting for not only their land and way of life, but for their very identity.
Looks like the financial 'nuclear' option is on the table. Ukraine's NBU released government debt figures through the end of 2014 - 71.5% of GDP. Russia has the option to call the $3 billion bond due if the debt levels hit over 60%.
http://www.epravda.com.ua/rus/news/2015/03/2/531730/If the Russians demanded immediate repayment of their $3B it will put at risk their other money (probably not much chance of getting it back anyway in the next 20 years) but it would bankrupt Ukraine immediately. This would mean an end to current IMF loan plans and significant loss to current and future US investors.
Bit unlikely they will do it unless their back is really against the wall but an interesting negotiating point.
Never send those homosexual bus drivers in the Chair Force to do a job that only the Navy could do.
The EUke's have done well so far. They would be better off it they had refused the first and the second ceasefires as they did, and will, only give the WUke's the ability to regroup. It sounds like the west is planning to give more than technical support next time and it will be difficult fo the EUke's.
In the first ceasefire the commander of the EUke's said Putin's forcing the ceasefire upon them was a "betrayal".
When the second ceasefire was being negotiated a commander of the EUke's said they could win almost every battle but in the end if Russia did not enter the confilct the war would ultimately be lost. I believe he is correct and also believe Putin will Never directly engage NATO forces even if it is only official, uniformed NATO advisors and small special forces groups.
NATO won't send any instructors. They will be mercs taking the lead in the battles.
Here you can see a pic of the US Marines flag found in Debaltsevo last week.
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/2073700.html
US Marines either fled, or rot somewhere in the fields of Donbas.
Probably left there by ex-Marines in the employ of Akademi or Gheywater whose oath to the Federal Reserve supersedes all others.
Hopefully they've suffered crippling and disfiguring injuries and are now starving to death in a hole in the ground near Debaltsevo.
Thing is, if NATO can false flag Russians in east Ukraine, then the Russians can easily do the same.
Probably got that flag off eBay for $5.00 so some former Marine doesn't get evicted from his house by Blackrock or something.
We behave like a drunken and abusive obese idiot at the bar who eventually gets knocked out cold by a little guy.
Getting more and more exceptional, ain’t we? ;-)
Looney
What usually happens is that the drunk trying to steal is whacked by the bouncer twice his size. What kind of insurance does Puutie think he has? Too much Vodka has him on the rampage.
Those Puutie Lappers who claimed there would not be Russian attacks on those Baltic countries (or any others) sure got the wrong message on the decoder rings.
President Putin hardly drinks at all.
inane bs
This Augustus guy is a well known ball bag. He is probably typical of the recruits for the Kiev Kartofel Korps.
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/02/ukraines-ministry-of-truth-is-hirin...
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/02/how-i-became-ukraines-information.html
There were only the original Three Stooges.
You were too stupid to make the cut.
Still suitable for the Puutie Paid Puppy brigade though.
Did you get your personal ass pounding from Puutie or were you happy enough when his guard dogs took care of it.
See what I mean? This guy operates at the mentality of a guy in grade 9 for the third time.
An unoriginal ball bag. Short bus crew.
You would probably be someone people would want to talk to if you were dead.
In a typically 'american' behavior, this Augustus guy automatically assumes he is correct. Never even occurred to him that he might be wrong about something as simple to check as The Three Stooges.
What a blunderer.
But hey, he's correct about everything else. Just ask him, he'll tell you.
Shemp. His name was Shemp.
+1 on ball wallet. Any notion that Putin has his eyes set on Europe is hilarious. The West is baiting him every step of the way.
The useful idiots claiming there will be attacks on the Baltic states are neocon chickenhawks. If Russia wanted the Baltic states they would have taken them long before they joined NATO
You're too stupid to read,
Russians just declared a threat to attack somewhere. What do you believe the target will be?
Your address. Please.
yeah they said they were going to drop a nude bomb on 1 1 2 2 boogie boogie avenue. Wear an extra layer.
.
It's very neighborly of you to keep us illiterates updated on the latest issue of Red Scare© comics.
You naled it.
in general, it is not so good to nuke something to your immediate west
Like Fukushima and North America?
Well Nagasaki and Hiroshima weren't so bad, except for, you know, all of the women children and feeble people being obliterated.
When 500 nuclear warheads go flying off, does it matter?
Remember right before WW2, when Russia and Germany conspired to cut up Poland? Could it be possible that Russia and the West shock hands behind closed doors, knowing full well that WW3 was around the corner, deciding to cut Ukraine into pieces. I belive this is a manufactured event just like WW1 and WW2...I don't trust anyone. Russia is killign anyone in the southern region who is not aligned with the Russian Orthadox, even Chrisitans, so I don't belive he's a friend. Will we see more Chrisitan persecutions around the world?
Trust me, I'm no west supporter just raising some legitimate questions and concerns.
You're another million dollar bonus . (y)
For the record, both sides are evil, I don't think it's as easy as saying Putin is the hero and West is the bad guy. I do belive the West started it, I do belive we are provoking the situation, which could lead to ww3. I just would not put it past any leader to make a deal that we don't know about.
In reality we will never know the truth, but if you look at Putin's involvement in the Chechnya bombing in the 90's, it's seem eerily similar to out 9/11.....I should have said /sarc off. in these posts, I'm seriious and not trying to be cute or funny with these particular posts
How about a link or two about Putin killing Christians? That might be interesting.
Embracing Orthodox Christianity as a force to unite these now divided Slavic lands and also their own fractured movement, the rebels, fortified recently by an influx of weapons and soldiers from Russia, used their period in power here purging Slovyansk of rival Christian denominations. … Among their principal targets were Christians defiant of the Moscow church’s claims of religious primacy and suspected of connections with the West. “Their logic is simple: You are an American church and America is our enemy so we have to kill you,” said Mr. Dudnik, the evangelical pastor. No one at his center had been killed, he said but added that the rebels had murdered four evangelical Christians from another Slovyansk church. Grabbed by pro-Russian gunmen in June after a Pentecost service at the Divine Transfiguration Church, all four victims were taken away for interrogation and were later found dead in a burned-out car.
http://shoebat.com/2014/08/25/pro-russian-militiamen-kill-five-evangelic...
That is tragic. I don't see where the orders came from Putin, though.
Look at black on black crime. They're nominally Christian. Them killing each other on a Chicago weekend doesn't mean Obama ordered them to do it for 'religious cleansing'.
Anything else that might be more informative?
Hey, just pointing it out. It may or may not be directly from Putin but the people that did this are supported by him. We have to be careful and examine everything carefully.
Also did you see Obama changed the Presidential Seal in the oval office: http://hotair.com/archives/2010/09/06/did-obama-wh-use-the-wrong-seal-fo...
This seal was EO'd in 1961 by Eisenhower, and is NOT supposed to be touched. Why is did Obama change the eagle to a pheonix and change the stars to black? Are all 50 states going into darkness? Is he going ti usher in a new age? He does not care about other EO's but we are supposed to follow his???
Also, these quotes on the outside of said rug, prove he doesn't belive in God and proves he's a socialst -
"No Problem of Human Destiny is Beyond Human Beings," President John F. Kennedy
"The Welfare of Each of Us is Dependent Fundamentally Upon the Welfare of All of Us," President Theodore Roosevelt
"We have to be careful and examine everything carefully."
Everything? So you have examined all the evil the US has done in the last century then?
About time you post dozens of comments attacking the US, isn't it?
Probably not. You are a true believer, one-sided, and full of bullshit.
Like any government lover.
LOL Due the west blows, the .gov sucks dick.
Actually, it just looks like it's easier to keep clean. All the other President's rugs were different colors, and the eagle still looks like an eagle.
Oh, well, maybe it's like that dress the public is so obsessed over.
LOL, too many sheep in this world...it's clearly a pheonix, a new world / illuminati symbol
It is hard to tell, I guess mostly by a scrawny neck:
'Hillary Clinton and some Administration associates have been wearing a lapel pin that is clearly an ancient symbol used by the Masters of the Illuminati.'http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1259.cfm
It certainly isn't the US Flag pin most politicians wear these days.
And this is fascinating:
'So Was The Olympic Closing Ceremony A Massive Display Of Illuminati Symbols?'
http://www.pharside.co.uk/everyday-stuff/so-was-the-olympic-closing-cere...
Weird stuff.
This has to do directly with Ukraine and Putin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vVsJu5Fr7Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn5oAU7MZOY
Right when this was going on, large explosion in Donsek. Conincidence?
Superbowl halftime show breakdown
They are anti-coup federalists not pro-rus militants .
.
Keep f*cking with Russia and see what happens.
Nuclear war.
Want to know what that means for us?
Check out what the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists says about what an 800 kiloton Russian warhead would do to Manhattan, or any other US city.
http://thebulletin.org/what-would-happen-if-800-kiloton-nuclear-warhead-...
Russia has 1000 strategic nuclear warheads that can be launched in 4 minutes, and hit the US in 30 minutes or less.
It only takes a few. 4-5 atmospheric blasts for EMP's, and all the nuclear power plant systems shut down. It only takes a few days of no cooling before they'll all explode and catch fire, both the reactors and Spent Fuel Pools. For the uninitiated, NPP's rely on external power, they don't use their own. Once incoming power lines go offline, it's over.
I don't know the area diameter math of nuke generated EMP's based on weapon size, might be more or less than 4-5, but the results have been wargamed for decades, and the results are the same.
Yes, a lot of cities will go up in smoke, but any survivors anywhere will be toast in a short amount of time. Especially the East Coast, where the bulk of the NPP's are.
Einstein was wrong about WW4. There won't be anyone left.
Good points. However, from what I have understood (got some ears in certain areas of nuclear security), is that most reactors do have mechanical (i.e. non-EMP sensitive) fail-safes in place (gravity driven and the like). Then again, most likely not all NNPs can or will have.
Again, good point you make.
Exactly, I have made the case EMP over any industrialized country with pressurized water reactors is a world ending event, in multiple venues, multiple times.
Not just the reactors -- there is VASTLY more fuel in spent fuel pools -- without pumps they boil dry and light up.
Give examples of EMP effect, please.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDow...
I need a drink after reading that.
glass half full again. look, think of it this way - that's 30minutes you'll have to fiddle with your balls one last time before lights out.
Plutonium tea would probably taste even worse than Lugol's solution (which makes water taste like metal - checked this morning and I still hate it), but Lugol's is dual use (since it will both treat ground water for drinking as well as fortify the thyroid against certain radioactive isotopes). However, as with many dual use things, there are dedicated/single purpose alternatives which perform slightly better at single tasks... but all that specialized crap adds weight to a rucksack...
"The Phony Litvinenko Murder" William Dunkerley
media dumb you down much?
Good cop bad cop
Russia NATO scam for cash
Nothing like a hot war to get rid of excess unemployed people.
more likely to clear some old conventional inventory and test out some bad ass new drones... besides GMOs, Vaccines and Pharmco Intl. are supposedly gonna reduce headcount, though Gates is probably in time out at present for non performance
Maybe Victoria Nukeland will respond with her mouth.
The elitist are getting tired of a crowded planet.
Blah, Blah, Blah.
Exactly, one we realize all governing powers are a bunch of fucking lunatics we can tune them out and start looking out for number one.
Ahem......
Why would Russia continue to supply ukraine with gas when they are actively trying to bait Russia into war?
Something bigger is going on here....
Russia could freeze the ukraine into oblivion and doesn't do it? Why?
Because they are getting paid upfront by UKRAINE govt from their IMF loans . Plus russia has made separate pipeline for e.ukraine so that kiev coup can no longer threaten them .
The American tax payer is paying for the gas for Ukraine , seem's fair to me.
IMF = American taxpayer through Fed debasement of currency.
up your geopolitical understanding - mostly secular data, thedomain name requires a bit of advanced understanding
http://redefininggod.com/
That's yet another trap to create a western casus belli.
Russia doesn't want to alienate ordinary Ukrainians.
By the way, these ordinary Ukrainians regularly pay for gas in their apartments. It seems their payments are stolen.
BINGO! The average Ukrainian does indeed pay his gas bill! And we might ask, why has Kiev no money to pay for gas, when consumers send a steady stream of payments to the Gas Company?
Stolen? Yes. We need to remember that Ukraine, even before Euro Maidan Coup, was Europes most corrupt nation. And by world standards Ukraine was as bad as many African states!
Everything in Ukraine is stolen. Even the army's military equipment was stolen over the last 20 years. That is why families of soldiers buy boots, uniforms, body armor, helmets, belts, etc. etc. for their men. Meanwhile, where are the billions that were stolen?
Much of it is in Swiss bank accounts.
"....by world standards, Ukraine was as bad as many Amerikan states."
Fixed it for ya.
Don't tell me that Ukie fox with the braided blond hair, the darling of the West, was corrupt!!!!
Yulia, Yulia, say it ain't so......
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/03/24/tymoshenko-8-million-ukraine-rus...
Yeah, she's so 'hot' . . .
Her, Hillary and Albright (“we think the price [killing 500,000 Iraqi children] is worth it”) make a great group of gals. Must be fun to play bridge with them over snacks.
"We need to remember that Ukraine, even before Euro Maidan Coup, was Europes most corrupt nation."
Yes, indeed. It used to be Albania but nowadays it is definitely Ukraine.
"Much of it is in Swiss bank accounts."
Or in the U.S. banks. If Bank of America or Wachovia could launder money for drug cartels, they could/can certainly do the same for corrupt Ukrainian politicians.
Furthermore, breaking an international business contract's clauses will get Gazprom into a legal dispute that is usually settled by the Arbitrage Courts in Paris and The Hague. Besides paying penalties it would also mean bad reputation for Gazprom/ Russia which is generally bad for business.
Just to make myself clear to the Amerikunt junk army - Russians are people that honor their given word, even more if it is a written contract. They don't lick where they've spat!
It's true. Even decades ago when Russia was controlled by the USSR government, they always honored their contracts for gas delivery.
The 'american' junk army will red arrow any positive comment about Russia. They live a life of "freedom" which keeps them enslaved to their Cold War brainwashing.
Even Rothschild thinks Russia is expanding her borders
http://citywire.co.uk/money/rothschild-we-face-greatest-geopolitical-ris...
,,|,, Fuck the Rotchild ,,|,,
How many generations have they been expanding theirs?
Send Nuland's kids/grand kids to fight in Ukraine. She's hell-bent in destroying the country. Just saying.
British moms won't be happy when their receive their sons in wooden boxes.
They do not seem to mind much when their heads are sawed off in the streets..
Bout time for Vlad to call China and ask them to fire another missile off the California coast.
pods
Does anyone know whatever became of the PLA troops deployed to China's border with Viet Nam?
If the NATO lunatics go full-Barbarossa in Donbas, what will China do while the USSA and its European prostitutes are engaged in a hot war, far away?
Regarding Vietnam, I'm sure China wants a redo from the last time they got their asses handed to them the last time they invaded Vietnam. Say what you want to about the Vietnamese, the fact that they fought China for almost a thousand years is a point of nationalistic pride for them. If China feels froggy, Vietnam WILL jump.
If everybody is distracted in the Ukraine, China may sieze the opportunity with a weaker state than Vietnam though (Laos, Northern Myanmar), of if they want to destabilize everything, they could invade NE India or make a move on Taiwan.
The Vietnamese used a lot of the same tactics against us that they used against the Mongols. They won both times, and both times, the other side was considered a superpower. Then, the Cambodians decided to go war with Vietnam right after the US pulled out. WTF were they thinking? Vietnam had a weapons industry and other supplies of weapons, and Cambodia killed people for looking too smart. Vietnam had a lot of very experienced troops and Cambodia had a bunch of fucking monsters under Pol Pot's deluded ideals.
Yeah, Vietnam will jump, that's for sure. They don't even need to win the battles to win the war. They just need to pull a rope-a-dope.
spot on.
Vietnam also dealth a terrible blow to the Red Chinese Army in a border war in the 70's. It took China's Amry 20 years to recover from the shock of their terrible beating. Vietnamese defeated the French in the 50-60's. The insane American government then forced several million American youth to fight where the French had lost. With all the death we dealt out, we did not win. And why did we need to win in the first place? No reason, just bravado and insane power trip by the same people pushing for a nuclear war with Russia today.
When was oil discovered in the South China Sea?
eh? Oil and gas has been extracted from the South China Sea for decades. Japan invaded SEA in 1941 specifically to secure an oil supply.
http://www.eia.gov/countries/regions-topics.cfm?fips=scs
in 2011 .
Try at least 86 years ago, fool.
That's the year when chinese started incursions in s.china sea . Got it jizpot ?
.
Try reading carefully. The question was:
When was oil discovered in the South China Sea?
Good gawd you're a compete gibbering fucking idiot Corsair!
Your retarded fuck-buddy said 2011!
I'm yet to see you make even one intelligent comment on any topic! All you ever do is chip-in on the tail-end of other people's discussions and make a fantastically dimwitted remark. The above being a fine example of your absurd mental perversion. You ludicrous fucking dropkick.
So you are both wrong...
but at least Max Steel is not obnoxious. He clarified what he meant.
How about you sweety? Care to show us some proof of offshore drilling in South China Sea before 1958.
Bullshit! I was entirely correct!
100% correct!
This is what I said:
"Oil and gas has been extracted from the South China Sea for decades."
I then added ancillary information of oil production ONSHORE of the South China Sea sedimentary basin structures that also extend OFFSHORE into the South China Sea from there. This was known to exist from as early as 1929. I am not the one who needs to explain himself here you useless muppet.
Then like a sniveling little twat you asked:
"Care to show us some proof of offshore drilling in South China Sea during WW2."
er, no, can you show me where I claimed that anywhere though, arsehole?
And then you assert the limp vegetable, Max Steal, has somehow "explained himself"?
Fuck off! He is a totally ignorant dickhead, who knows nothing about what he was claiming.
You are the most conceited no-nothing self-satisfied lazy idiot that I've encountered on zero hedge, take a bow dickhead, you've earned it.
Ahahahah :)) Talk about conceited.
You are answering questions that nobody asked. Let me remind you, the question was:
When was oil discovered in the South China Sea?
Your wrong answer was: 1929 (86 years ago)
Oil in "South China Sea sedimentary basin" (ONSHORE) was discovered in 1883 (not in 1929)
Oil in South China Sea (OFFSHORE) was discovered in 1958 (not in 1929)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Southeast_Asia
You see, I try to keep it simple sweety ;-)
I suspect much had to do with providing an operational smuggling route for drugs from the Golden Triangle - Air America and probablt others.
In the same way during USSR war in Afganistan, herion was brought in back home in those fancy zinc coffins.
Just business, that's all.
@ Jack Burton
True story. Back in '65 I was 9 and my older brother and I went to lunch with dad. While waiting for food, pop poured a little salt on the table top and drew a crude map of China and Vietnam. Pop says, "For 2,000 years the Chinese have been tryin' to make inroads on Vietnam and they never have. We haven't got a ice cube's chance in hell of subduing Vietnam." He had written a letter to the Editor supporting Senator Wayne Morse and his vote against the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and got a personal reply of thanks from Senator Morse ("History will prove us correct", etc.).
I actually think that we were physically capable of winning, and by winning, getting the North Vietnam government to surrender, declaring victory, having several years of partisians who hate our fucking guts shoot at our soldiers, pulling out and leaving a huge power vacuum that some other group comes into and smashes everything that we did. In other words, not really winning, but claiming that we won. That sounds so contemporary and familiar. 2003 rings a bell. Oh yeah, Mission accomplished -> partisians who hate our guts shooting at our soldiers -> we pull out leaving a power vacuum -> other groups move into fill it (which we are arguably making much, much worse,) and we're thinking about going in a 3rd time. What did we win there?
You're just stirring up shit. China is holding the winning hand as all of this plays out. It has no motivation to start something in SE Asia.
As for the Vietnamese, they also ran the French and US out of their country.
LOL. I'm not stirring shit up. Look to what China has done for the last 60 years. None of their neighbors are safe. If they think they are, they are delusional.
No, look at what the US has done in SE Asia over the past 60 years.
As for China, consider it only for the past two decades. If you can not see the shift in its policy in SE Asia, you simply don't want to. China will not invade Taiwan. It does not need to. Long term, it will reunify in a Hong Kong/Macao manner but by mutual agreement. The US interests are the ones who keep fomenting the Taiwan independence movement. As for now, there is balance. Families are reunited and trade is flowing smoothly. On the other hand, the US continues to sell weapons to Taiwan.
Relations between China and S Korea are good despite the influence of the US on SK. Relations between China and Japan were warming considerably until the US/Japanese nationalists deposed Hatoyama/Ozawa.
SE Asia has more to fear from what the US will do next than from China.
So we get to disregard Tibet, North Korea and the PLA incursion into India and Vietnam? LOL....OK Buddy.
North Korea exists because of 40,000 US troops in S Korea. China supports NK to keep those troops from Chinese borders. Isn't that obvious?
Tibet is more complicated and difficult to understand, especially given the biased treatment of Tibet and the wealthy Dalai Lama by western media and Hollywood.
As for India, whatever problems it has with China, it seems to be leaning toward the BRICS economies, including China, much to the concern of the US.
Vietnam and China have centuries of conflicts. I doubt anyone outside of either country can define the reasons.
ETA: If the US were to pull out of S Korea, the peninsula would be reunited within the decade.
Please elaborate on Tibet. I'm all ears. I'm wondering if you're going to parrot what the Chinese kids parroted when I was going through engineering school.
Regarding India, the border issue with China is still unresolved. Both India and China are too nationalistic to solve it without some bloodshed IMHO.
I diasagree with your assessment regarding North Korea's existence. It's a vassal state on a Chinese leash regardless of whatever reason assigned to it's existence.
the Vietnamese national character is defined in part by it's historical resistance to China, and the Vietnamese in my experience are highly nationalistic.
I guess the Chinese students had to listen to you parrot the US view on Tibet, as well.
Do you think those Chinese students would be more authoritative than you on the issue of, say, how Hawaii became a US state?
Disagree all you want about NK. It does not change the fact of the matter.
To be honest, I don't have a "US view" on Tibet. My opinion was formed from speaking with exiled Tibetans.
Since you brought up the issue of Hawaii. Hawaiian culture wasn't erased. Tens of thousands of Hawaiians weren't executed based on their political views. I disagree with how Hawaii became a colony, and then a state. But then again, Hawaii wasn't the initial focus of our discussion.
NK is certainly a Chinese vassal state. When NK barks too loudly, who pulls the chain? China.
I don't know, Hawaii seems germane to the issue. Another culture taken over by a powerful nation through force of the military. As for their culture not being destroyed, it exists today at the resort hotels for the most part.
As for Tibet, you are correct, you do not know. It is none of our business.
On NK, I never denied that China does not control it, I only explained the reason it exists.
"My opinion was formed from speaking with exiled Tibetans."
All the exiled Tibetans belong to the minute privileged caste that had to take off - when they are not fake Tibetan gurus from California - so of course they'll draw a rosy picture of Tibet before, if they know it at all.
The only ones I would trust are the old Tibetans who are still at home. Those are the only ones that can realistically describe the differences between the Lamas rule and the Chinese.
Hmmm. I didn't know any Tibetans when I was stationed in California. The ones I knew lived in the hill stations in Northern India, and a few in New Delhi. They weren't rich either. Just ordinary people.
Have you ever been to India ? Tibetians took exile in India . They mainly live in Dharamshala , a beautiful hill station in Himachal Pradesh . Tibetians live in New delhi too near Majnu ka Teela .
Yeah, I was stationed in New Delhi for about 15 months. I still miss the food. I don't miss the smog (visible in the house). I lived at Shanti Path and Panscheel Marg (US Embassy). My old girlfriend lived over in Rajouri Garden. I spent a few weeks in Nagaland, but traveled all over northern India (did not go west of Delhi though, or sadly...South very far. I love southern Indian food).
ETA: Moti Mahals, the somosas in Chitteranjen Park and the marsala potatoes with lime in Connaught Place... Damn, now I'm really hungry...
Why don't you instead look at what USA has done in the last 25 years in the Middle East? But no, you wanna talk about China. Perfect example of The Straw Man argument.
The poster above me brought up China. I reponded. Do try to keep up...
But they are, and have been for several years and keep escalating their activities that ASEAN rejects and protests and individual countries are furious about. All it takes is for Vietnam to snap and it will be on and half a dozen countries will turn on China to combine to kick its butt out of the South China Sea, permanently. The whole area can also be sea-mined, but ship sub and air, and thus closed to Chinese commercial shipping for months, if necessary, so they run a very big risk if they get into it with these SEA states, as none of them are going to continue to put up with China trying to annex territory in close proximity to them and within their own national territorial claims. This will come to the boil at some point.
It is in no one's interest in ASEAN (note that the US influences ASEAN policy with no tangible interest other than hegemony. The TPP was an ASEAN trade deal until the US muscled its way into leading it) to challenge China except the US. ASEAN nations do not want to be the next proxy for conflict with America's geopolitical "enemies."
Sorry, you very wrong about that, multiple states within SEA who are also core members of ASEAN are having their territorial claims infringed right now by China. ASEAN itself is quite irrelevant, it is not a military alliance, it is regional cooperation and economics framework. And the US has zero control over ASEAN. SEA states want the China to fuck off out of their claimed territory and stop trying to annex it and build military bases on it.
It is a very active topic of discussion in the region right now, and yes, the usual US hawks are most certainly watching China very closely.
http://qz.com/347684/chinas-island-building-spree-is-about-more-than-jus...
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/02/mccain-points-to-dramatic-change-in-c...
I hardly think an article quoting the concerns of John McCain, the same guy who wants to invade Syria and who encourages more involvement in Ukraine, presents an unbiased assessment of the situation.
I think you read too much America media. But, as in all things, time will tell which of us is correct.
Don't act the fool. The air and satelite imagery is right there in the articles. It's very recent, it is being continually monitored. Chinese activity continues to increase. It is a topic of considerable regional discussion and tension and widely reported and known about. I can post documentries about it with footage of it if you like, from sources that are not American.
Funny that the US can present such evidence in SE Asia but can not present the same evidence of activity on the Russian/Ukraine border.
What do you make of that?
As for what is happening along the Chinese/Vietnam border, it is none of the US business except to provoke conflict with the Chinese or scare other SE Asian nations who do not have such conflicts with China. Burma, Cambodia, and especially Laos don't seem to be concerned.
That would be because China is not intruding on and trying to annex their territorial claims in the South China Sea. Are you trying to play dumb? If you are, it's working.
And who said the US was involving itself between Vietnam and China's border? You did. I said the US was watching the South China sea antics of China. Again, don't try to play dumb.
It's not the US that is concerning SEA countries, it is the activities of China who is acting provocatively and pushing the locals around like a bully, disrespecting them entirely and is close to triggering a serious armed conflict with them.
SEA knows it, they live right there, they are watching in real time, first-hand, every day, with regular maritime patrols. They know exactly what China's doing and no one from outside SEA has to point it out to them or convince them of anything (let alone try to "scare" them, where do you get that shit?).
Instead they are coming to the larger regional powers and asking for support, for training, for weapon sales, for deeper regional military cooperation and integration plus for mutual regional security arrangements which already exist to be deepened, and for military exercises and diplomatic cooperation to be increased.
China will blow its own foot off if it keeps this up, it's actions are turning the entire SEA region against it.
To be sure the Chinese are watching the antics of the US in SE Asia, too. As well as the antics of the US in the Middle East (especially Syria and Iran) and In Ukraine. Africa, too, I suppose.
Of all the nations of the world, which do you suppose poses the greatest risk to world peace.
Narrow it down to Russia, China, or the US. Which of the three has been the greatest source of war in the past 6 decades? What do you see in the near future that would make that change over the next decade?
It would be best for China to not to give them an excuse, because once they start they just don't stop, the MIC will see to it that tension remains. No one wants that, but no one wants what China is doing either and they do intend to put an end to it and force China to use international mechanisms to determine negotiated territories. The defacto annexation stuff is a recipe for conflict. It's not the way to go, it's a big mistake.
"the MIC will see to it that tension remains"
And, thus, we have the US foreign policy in 9 words. Seems concerning, doesn't it? Do you support that FP?
It's not an FP though, it's commercial interests who profit from selling weapons and militate via paid Washington politicians and think tanks plus propaganda outlets to create such tensions and faux debates.
No, I do NOT support that, it is an aberration that damages relations and dangerously undermines.
Which is why it's best to make sure they don't have that wedge to put into play.
Do you support Beijing creating such a situation in the South China Sea currently?
and;
Do you think China should engage with the respective SEA states to finally put the boundaries of national territories to ingenuous negotiation to finalize this whole question thus removing the potential or opportunities for regional rancor, or such external influencing?
So, it is up to China to make sure that the US MIC, supported by official US government policy, does not increase tensions to the point of conflict? In other words, roll over and accept American dominance? Would that be acceptable to to the US people if the situation were reversed?
As for what China does, I neither encourage nor want to interfere. Left to their own devices and without US involvement, SE Asia and China will work things out. It probably will be beneficial to most living there. To be sure, it will not be beneficial to the US, however. It is a very complicated issue that goes back centuries and, unfortunately, involves the activities of the West (and more recently, the US) over the past 2 1/2 centuries. Britain probably did more to cause these problems than anyone until more recent US activity.
China has offered to take the issue to the UN. The US (and its puppets in SE Asia) demands that China stop all activity before anything else has been decided. And, so, we are where we are today.
That would be a misreading of what I said, and mis-characterizing of the implications. I won't comment on that nor address a meaningless hypothetical. I will however put to you an actually pertinent real-world question;
Do you think SEA states should or will roll over and accept Chinese domination, in the way it is currently being imposed?
China will do what it wants, but China and SEA are not separate from the world and will not be excluding the world from playing a part in resolving the question of territorial limits within the South China Sea. The West will not exclude itself either. Plus affected SEA states will encourage Western engagement to back them diplomatically and if necessary via other means.
You assert SEA governments are 'puppets' of Washington, which is a ridiculous and inaccurate characterization. These countries have only reached out to the western alliance and Washington since about 2012, due to escalating obnoxious Chinese actions in the South China Sea. Prior to that they kept the US and western alliance at arms length.
Indeed ASEAN was for many years a fairly anti-western organization, until as recently as about 2006. So the SEA governments are not anyone's puppet, they are sovereign states who protect their independence with care, due to former colonial history.
So I'll reword your question and statement minus the strange-meat product sewn into it, so that it can be addressed more sensibly. Thus:
That's obviously an entirely unacceptable and disingenuous position to take for the reasons shown within the links given above. China is thus stalling to continuing with the very activity that is causing a drift toward armed conflict. That is the opposite of acting ingenuously to negotiate and finalize territorial boundaries.
It's rather a defacto Chinese foreign policy to continue to annex the claimed national territories of multiple SEA states, and in parallel to install Chinese armed forces on their claimed national territories, so that Beijing will continue to refuse to negotiate, at all. It has said it intends to claim the entire South China Sea.
Beijing developed a road-mobile backup satellite launch capability because it knew it was going to need it.
All understood
"All Understood"?
I congratulate you on your almost too professional answer which seems very compelling.
That you refused to answer my question as being hypothetical and misleading evades the reality of the region. To suggest, as you do by rephrasing the question, that the US has no influence in the region and that China is acting out on a path of dominating SE Asia in a geopolitical vacuum is misleading.
Indeed, China has expanded its line of defense into the S China Sea but only on land that has joint/disputed sovereignty claims. And while the US gets lots of mileage with these actions, one must acknowledge the provocation (beyond the West's assertion of self-interest that China is a rogue nation which endangers the entire Asian region), which is the admitted goal of the US to "contain" China both economically and militarily. If another nation would announce this goal aimed at the US, to be sure, it, too, would expand its perimeter defense regardless who gets shuffled aside in the process, although probably not on vacant, unused islands which sovereignty is disputed (the US likes only the best locations next to the brothels and bars-or perhaps the brothels and bars come after the troops).
As for China's UN "ploy", it would seem to be in the benefit of all to make the S China Sea issue open for everyone to see. As such, it would seem that only those who do not wish to have the history of the region, including the involvement of foreigners, to be reviewed by the world are the ones who would try to prevent it. As China offered it, it would seem that the US, and those whom it influences, are the ones who do not want all the facts brought out. The US does not want the issue settled (you said yourself that the MIC wants to maintain tension in the region, thus, to settle the issue would be to eliminate the tension).
I am sure Beijing developed its military and missile systems with an eye on the US. But why wouldn't they? The US is doing everything it can to make China knuckle under. China spends its money on developing its defensive capabilities. The US spends its money on offensive capabilities which it uses with increased frequency. Which poses the greater danger?
And if some, like me, who do not have your level of professional expertise on the subject can figure it out, don't you think people of other nations in SE Asia have also figured it out? It's going to get mighty expensive (in money and lives) simply for the US to maintain its hegemony going forward.
No, not having that stuff.
You are making excuses and trying to distract from legitimate and potentially combative concerns of a number of core states of South East Asia with an attempt to distract from the facts of action, via USA as boogie-man.
Again.
So let's get this perfectly clear, no more pretenses, no more feigned innocence. The US is not doing anything to challenge the territorial claims or sovereignty of any state within the South China Sea.
Absolutely nothing.
China however is more or less in a state of near armed conflict with core countries of South east Asia because of the actions that China is taking to avoid and flout international lawful mechanisms to negotiate and resolve conflicted territorial claims with other states.
I will not answer contrived hypothetical questions constructed to mislead and avoid those present facts even further, so forget that sort of ruse.
You also try to conjure up the ghost of regional history, and asserted grievance as some sort of justification for what China's doing. Which is quite worthless. You are not preaching to the choir here. None of that is a valid explanation or excuse for China's aggressive grab for the claimed territories of multiple states. It approaches the threshold of war. So just not having such fanciful mental apparition offerings as excuses, sorry.
Actions speak louder and infinitely clearer than words. They are understood.
LOL. The US has its nose stuck up the ass of every single conflict going on in the world, sovereign or otherwise. And, yet, we are supposed to believe that, despite a history of outright and de facto colonization, Manifest Destiny, use of weapons of mass destruction, overthrowing governments, and destroying economies throughout Asia, it is wielding no influence in SE Asia whatsoever? Its diplomatic, political, military, economic, and spy hands are completely clean?
Brother, you are either delusional or fully brainwashed. Or you are simply paid to produce so much drivel.
But you are correct that actions speak louder than words. Despite the words like spreading democracy, human rights, and the completely Orwellian bullshit "responsibility to protect," the actions of the US have been catastrophic for millions around the globe. People should be afraid of anything the US says because it is more than likely a cover for something far worse.
As difficult as it may be to contemplate, they do have very little leverage in SEA. I pointed out to you above that ASEAN was a rather anti-Western organization for most of its history. And after 1999 East Timor issues the US cut all military and intel links to Indonesia and it remained that way until the last few years. And that changed specifically due to the way China has been behaving in the South China Sea. But since then the whole spying reveal has had a strong impact and SEA really do not trust the US.
So yes, whether you believe it or not the US has very little leverage or impact in the region today. They're trying to change that, but they have not been doing much in SEA since about 1992 when they pulled out entirely at the end of the cold war. Only after the 9-11 inside job did spec-ops get involved again in the Southern Philippines for a few years. Plus Malaysia was particularly scathingly anti-western right up to about 2006. Plus Vietnam, Laos and former Cambodia mostly detest Americans. Only the Thais and Singapore have much to do with the US. So the US has remarkably poorly developed links with many key large states in SEA.
Australia and New Zealand are the only countries that have a genuinely close relationships with the US. They are a lot more welcomed in SEA than the US and have vastly better developed relations with all SEA countries.
South east Asia is a very independent minded place these days, they do not want more US interaction than necessary. They do not fawn after US wishes. If anything the alleged US 'pivot was speculated to be an implicit recognition of the relative absence of the US from the region for so long, and of the US's weak influence and poor leverage within South East Asia. In fact most of SEA and East Asia blamed the US for the 1998 Asian financial crisis.
And I'm not surprised, the History on the US in Indochina was worse than anything that occurred under the former European colonization. There are a lot of people alive today in SEA who lived through all of it, and several countries are still covered in the bombs mines and giant crater holes.
So you you really don't know SEA very well at all if you understand why the US has very little cred, respect or diplomatic and political leverage within SEA today.
The ONLY reason SEA states want the US to become re-involved within SEA now is because of recent Chinese territorial aggression within the South China Sea.
That is a FACT.
dup