2. What happens to the U.S. stock market if/when the U.S. follows the rest of the world into recession?
In essence, the model considers four data series: real personal income, nonfarm payrolls, industrial production and real final sales (as a percentage of change). If all four are rising, the probability of recession is low.
If all four roll over and decline, the probability of recession (generally defined as a decline in gross domestic product for two consecutive quarters) approaches 100%.
This makes intuitive sense: if personal income, industrial production, real final sales and payrolls are all declining, how can GDP continue expanding?
For context, let's start with a chart I published earlier this week of new manufacturing orders--which look unambiguously recessionary:
Here is a chart of real final sales (as a percentage of change) and the S&P 500 (SPX). The percentage of change of real sales declined for four years in the 2000s while the stock market soared--a remarkably long-lasting divergence.
Note that real final sales remained in positive territory (i.e. were still expanding, albeit at a pace of 1% or so) even as the U.S. economy slid into recession in early 2008.
Industrial production has yet to roll over--but this may be merely a time lag in the data, as it's difficult to see how the recent drop in oil/gas employment won't eventually show up in industrial production as wells are capped and drilling rigs are idled.
Many aspects of manufacturing are dependent on either global growth or the expansion of highly risky debt--for example, subprime auto loans. What happens to auto sales when the subprime auto loan bubble bursts?
Payrolls have also been rising steadily for over five years--a period of time that exceeds the previous expansion of nonfarm employment in the 2000s. By any measure, the current period of payroll expansion is long in tooth.
Put another way--how many more millions of waiters/waitresses/bartending jobs can the U.S. economy generate? How many jobs are dependent on exports, which are being pressured by the soaring U.S. dollar? What happens to job growth as corporate profits plummet?
I didn't publish the personal income chart because this data series is highly suspect, for reasons explained by Zero Hedge in The Mystery Of America's Missing Wage Growth Has Been Solved: the wages of the lower 4/5ths of the employed are stagnant or down; only the top 20% registered any gains in real income.
There is undoubtedly a Pareto distribution in these gains, meaning 80% of the income gains enjoyed by the top 20% went to the top 20% of that 20%: in other words, most of the income gains went to the top 5% of the managerial/technocrat class--it was not evenly distributed to the entire top 20%.
What predictive value is there in income data when the vast majority of the income gains have flowed to the top 5%, a few crumbs thrown to the next 15% and the bottom 80% received no real gains in income or actually saw their income decline in real terms?
Regardless of income, history shows that stocks crater when payrolls, industrial production and real final sales all tank. The current euphoria for stocks has several components: one is soaring corporate profits, and the other is quasi-religious faith in the power of central banks to keep stocks lofting higher in a complete disconnect from fundamentals such as sales, profits, production or payrolls.
History is rather unkind to blind faith in central banks, just as the rising U.S. dollar and stagnant sales are being very unkind to corporate profits.
isnt the USA actually leading it?
What Happens To The Stock Market If The U.S. Follows The World Into Recession?
Easy! It goes up!
(but don't blame the numerator)
Regards,
Cooter
First we have to get out of the Depression we're in before we talk about a pollyanna recession.
Back when the Fed had the option of lowering rates to offset the effects of a recession, it was not a big deal. This one they're going to enter the recession still on zero. Nowhere to go. The next recession (within the larger depression) will hit like a ton of bricks.
NIRP for the win! Rob the savers, problem solved. Shoot some serfs to show them who is boss. It seems like it is real easy being an oligarch.
What happens?
FEMA "Freedom Camps" all over
Ferguson gets nuked... by us.
The word "Internet" is banned.
Bounty on preppers and any one suspicious.
Freedom camps... could happen.
But at first, the stock market goes up as all other westernized nations move their money into the US stock market as a safe haven from their own govt's money grab (austerity). Those Euro and emerging markets will be defaulting and shaking down citizens.
Eventually, the USA will meet the same doom and at that point the bubble pops and the money disappears. Stock market, dead.
With the us version of kommandostelle s units using German towns to test the v2 rocket, the tr3b used to fry our sorry asses and blame it the other guy
Buy the DIP! ....buy the fracking dip you fools!!!!
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Where is the punchline?
His old job, that he lost, was Chairman of the Federal Reserve. It's Ben Bernanke spammin us out of his mother's basement where he lives now.
Beware of his "Make Money Fast" schemes, he still owes me 5$ and a pack of smokes...
It won't be pretty when Janet is his cellar mate
MOAQE - Mother Of All QE
W.O.P.R. ?
Won't creative, non-gaap, be used to "solve" the issue of keeping us decoupled from a global recession? Worked before, right? More circus perhaps?
More cowbell.
A chicken in every pot and a cowbell in every song. Peace,Justice and the American Way.
A bright shining tomorrow, a thousand cities shimmering, points of lights glowing in the darkness, leading us all home.
Utopia awaits, won't you enter the machine?
Cash is trash
This just in (and by just in i mean a 6 year delay)..The U.S. stock market is propped up. Thus, all data, past present and future, is gigo.
Exactly.. I propose changing the current PPE ("Price Per Earnings" ratio for anyone who doesnt know) to a new model called PPB (Price Per Buyback) ratio... I suspect my new PPB model will work considerably better considering we are now completely detached from anything that can be considered "fundamental" in this economy.
For a second there i thought you might have come up with the best thing since sliced bread...I just did the math on p/e vs. p/b...it gets a little screwy the instant the fed says something....
speaking of sliced bread...I propose a better metric...rather than p/b..how about a pb&j... then at least you have a samich.
Since the 80's
"There is undoubtedly a Pareto distribution in these gains, meaning 80% of the income gains enjoyed by the top 20% went to the top 20% of that 20%: in other words, most of the income gains went to the top 5% of the managerial/technocrat class--it was not evenly distributed to the entire top 20%."
Oh, I see that my many comments on Pareto might have reached CHS, the author
yup, the Pareto Distribution Of Wealth. Capitalism's dirty secret. Used by all "Wealth Managers" worldwide, for the simple reason that this "Power Law" holds true wherever the accumulation of resources is permitted
Careful with Pareto. It applies to wealth, not income. The last one is transitory, changeable, shifting. The first is more... durable
another 80% is "how much Americans are in stocks". which is astounding for itself, as ZH was showing, comparing the 80% of Chinese portfolios in Real Estate
and so this is imho still the reason why so many foreign investors are in US Stocks. The principle is easily explained: since the US Investor is usually leveraged even in his stocks portfolio, the US as such is highly... unwilling to see it's stock marked decline, ever
sure, HTFs might specialize in triggering stop-losses for profit, but as such, "National Interests" dictate that The Show Must Go On. Regardless. Hence the Plunge Protection Team
we'll see where this leads to, but I would not hold my breath for... change. Since I am a distant watcher of all US Affairs, any correction by fact-thumping is welcome
The stock market is a policy tool. (Doc Engali's line, which I wish I could take credit for)
And that includes all kinds o tools, for all kinds o fools.
this leads to a ballon payment at the end of the debt super cycle.........as the future cannot repay todays debts..
Baloons
Bubbles
they never weather a storm
oh, the sheer humanity of age. I forgot to add my punchline and got sidetracked to comment the US Stock Market. here it is:
...but Pareto is a bitch. the bigger the "pool", the more the 80% of wealth of the 20% wealthier migrates up, creating a third class, the 20% of the 20% of wealthy, owning 80% of the 80% of wealth
and if the pie is increased to planetary size, thanks to stocks of multinationals, the 100% is the whole world, which makes a fourth class, the global super-wealthy
in a world without globalization, there would be one Windows/Microsoft and one Apple/Whatever in every country/market, and so no planetary size super-rich like Jobs or Gates
and the real bitch of this is that this has always been so. the only differences between us and the Ancients, is that they were much more matter-of-fact about it
they did not moan about Oligarchs. they just asked them to shoulder most of the commonwealth's expenses. You want a war? Build your ship, said Temistocles, and the people will man it
some countries' approach with the super-wealthy is completely different. hunt the barely affluent, and give lobbyists the reason to pocket big salaries in order to tax the super-rich less
every empire and every state is a commonwealth, at it's core. yes, it's a racket for the preservation of wealth, if you want to put it in those terms. and Pareto is it's... constant, in the long run
I find it rather entertaining when I hear discussions of "history says" in today's markets. IMO, today's enviroment is nothing like what we have ever seen before.
In short, it is rather easy to understand why equities are continually rising. It is because there is > $100B in stock buybacks going on by companies who are getting cheap bond yields and playing financial games. The effect is even stronger due to front running of these actions. That is why you always see a rush on the "buy the dip" type of activity on no news whatsoever. In fairness, we always see this type of activity during the end of a bull cycle, but this time due to FED policy, there is orders of magnetude more leverage than what we have ever seen before. Things truly are different this time.
This is the mother of all turds.
Imagine the US having to import everything it uses because its currency is so expensive that everything can be manufactured or grown in other countries at a lower price. Rates will not rise. Instead we will see a revaluation or outright default.
this would only work if dollar was backed by huge military power...mhmm... wait a minute...
You can draw all the pretty charts you want but they will not give you the answer to the question. The stock market will go down when the Fed stops supporting it. That is the way that they keep the whole US pention system from collasping.
the only way for the FED to keep suporting it is to keep the media monopoly, which is why they are trying to shut down Internet so bad.
the real question is, has FED understood that the usual cycle of boom and bust they have always ran, won't just consolidate the real wealth when they finally decide to rise the rates, as has been done previously. the system is pushed to its limits and will break the entire world economy, due to the unseen leverage in the financial sector.
"What Happens To The Stock Market If The U.S. Follows The World Into Recession?"
the central banks drink of the market water to show that it is good
reminds me of a moving picture of a brit leader some years ago, eating of the mad cow hamburger to show the people that it is good! eat of it! good! See?
since the fed defines a recession as a stock market decline the question is silly
well sense we don't need to mark assets to market....can't we edo the same....where companies just mark revenue to a preplanned increase?
How about we stop taking money from the people need it and stop giving it to people that already have it!
Everything is pointing to a world wide collapse.
http://investmenttools.com/futures/bdi_baltic_dry_index.htm
They used a ruler to draw the market ramp....and that can't be changed...sorry!
I remember Nouriel Roubini back in 2007-8 declaring that the US and the rest of the world would decouple and that the rest of the world would not be drawn into the crash-at least that is what I took from his predictions, although these financial gurus always seem to be morphing their predictions like a chameleon changes color- Funds like Harbor International and Janus World Wide did crash.....oh those were the days of my naviete.
So in theory, and by the concerted effort of all central banks it seems to be lowering interest rates, engaging in QE of one sort or another, then this time the world should not decouple. Time will tell.
If you're trying to escape a disaster and every boat in sight is slowly sinking--you'll still row towards the one that seems to be sinking the slowest. The dollar could move very high for this reason.
When in fear one doesn't pay much attention to long term fundamentals.
The world economy is like an elevator with a schizophrenic at the controls. For the first time in my life I'll say we are really in uncharted territory.
Personal Income as defined by the statistical geniuses at the BLS includes insurance.
Sales Data includes EBT (food stamps) and the "free" to end user pharmaceuticals - of which there has been an EXPLOSION, which covers up the end of the pharms senior golden egg.
As for "manufacturing" there has been NO resurgence. All that has happened has that the death of the many has shifted government contracts and few remaining commercial contracts into the remaining businesses. Reporting is only done on open businesses and the death of the rest is never accounted for. (Which explains how the ISM numbers NEVER entered "contraction" as the industry bled out 60%, or more, of good paying jobs and small business).
Assembling foreign components looks GREAT for the "Made in the USA" advertising, as "Made in the USA" only means the cost of assembly/packaging has to be greater than 51% attributed to an American location. This covers up the loss of millions of former suppliers while touting "growth."
And, finally, there is nothing left after the banksters, government and medical system got ahold of us.
These articles are becoming increasingly more futile, bad stuff is coming, accept it and try to prepare, or bury your head and be first in line for the continued assistance of the monsters that created this mess.
None of the numbers can be analyzed truthfully Charles, that ship sailed long, long, ago.
A recession is when your neighbor is out of work a depression is when you have Obama as president.
It goes up. Next.
I don't give a flying RAT FUCK what happens to the FUCKING stock market.
What I *do* care about is what happens to actual PEOPLE when the grocery stores have emptied.
I don't recommend banking or politics as career choices for you friend. If you are incapable of slashing the throats of innocent children, then you'll not be of much use to our noble leaders. Besides, you probably don't even own a pantsuit.
Risible. More like the US LEADS (Not FOLLOWS) the world into the Hegelian Dialectic planned recession.
"The BIS / IMF / Fed Reserve / HSBC / LIBOR et al is a bank. Their objective isn't to control the conflict, it's to control the debt that the conflict produces. The real value of a conflict, the true value, is in the debt that it creates. You control the debt, you control everything. This is the very essence of the banking industry, to make us all, whether we be nations or individuals, slaves to debt."
"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? ... That's what it means to be a slave"
This is the dumbest of articles!
It has been years since the markets have been allowed to move freely with a historic pricing mechanism.
It is completely irrevelent whether or not the US is in recession, the market goes down when the NY Fed says it is OK to go down and not one millisecond before.