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Europe Pulls Rug From Under Greece, Says "Nein" To "Vague, Piecemeal" Proposals
Despite all the talk of a "positive climate" Greek talks with their creditors have ended badly for the desperately cash-strapped nation. As WSJ reports, Greek proposals for a revised bailout program don’t have enough detail - are "piecemeal and vague" - to satisfy the government’s international creditors, eurozone officials said. Furthermore, as Dow Jones reports, EU finance ministers are unlikley to meet again until mid-April (and in the meantime, Greece has to pay salaries, pensions, and most critically IMF debts due on April 9th).
Looming payments...
As The Wall Street Journal reports,
Greek proposals for a revised bailout program don’t have enough detail to satisfy the government’s international creditors, eurozone officials said, making it more likely that Athens will need to go several more weeks without a new infusion of desperately-needed cash.
...
The Greek government is facing a dire shortage of cash: It must pay salaries and pensions at the end of the month and repay debts to the IMF on April 9. While talks over the weekend were friendly, officials said, mistrust at a political level continues to stew between the outspoken government in Athens and the rest of the eurozone.
...officials say crucial details were again missing from the Greek proposals after talks that started Friday night, lasted all day Saturday and continued on Sunday.
“The proposals were piecemeal, vague and the Greek colleagues could not explain technically what some of them actually implied,” a eurozone official said. “So, let’s hope that they present something more competent next week.”
Senior eurozone finance officials will hold a teleconference on Wednesday to discuss the situation, officials said. But they said it is highly unlikely eurozone ministers will meet before mid-April to release more money for Greece. That means Athens will have to scrape together cash to pay salaries and pensions at the end of the month and make a €460 million debt repayment to the IMF on April 9.
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It appears clear that the EU is prepared to let Greece entirely run out of money in an effort to squeeze Tspiras as much as possible (though that action will likely further force a pivot to Putin).
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The Greek government is full of horse-shit and lies.
Everyone got a prime example of Greek commitment when they reduced the felonious acts of the old finance minister to a misdemeanor.
The ex-finance minister probably got let off the hook with a slap on the wrist because he most certainly had enough dirt on some very important people. No other explanation could justify such a disgusting decision.
More like mutually assured destruction between political parties, justice, police, unions, elites, banks, etc...
The Greek government is going to default - it is a done deal - there is a list of debts owing larger than the sears catalog. And that is wonderful because nobody should be in the business of lending *any* governments a nickel..
The faster we can get the governments to default the quicker their mirage of power can be evaporated..
Throw the Greeks out of Europe already.
Nope Greece will serve as a Trojan horse in the EU TROY'ka'. It will serve China and Russia very well as they will be the monkey wrench to derail the EU Empire.
While everyone is looking at Greece, another Syriza-style party is about to win elections elsewhere.https://portugueseinsurgent.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/portugals-syriza/
I'm making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do... www.jobs-review.com
It seems to me that no one has enough details these days on how to pay back their creditors and that includes the USA let alone Greece.
yes, one way to pay back credits - you need to kill creditors
Go Greece. Lead the world that they may understand reality.
Go ahead Greece, let the world know how full of shit that the leftist elitist pigs that you elected into office are. You thought things were bad before? Just wait until the welfare checks from Germany come to an end.
Damn Jackson Browne treats his wives better than the EU treats Greece
OK, the EU allows Greece to completely run out of cash. The IMF bill is not paid, no one else gets paid.... Then what, other than having squeezed the beegeebers out of Tspiras? What comes next? Massive bank runs, a population goes into total revolt against? The EU or the Greek government? Both? Someone else?
The plot thickens.
Several factors are at play here.
First, the Greek government intends to surrender at the last moment but needs to frame the problem as a situation where they did everything they could but were left with no choice. Everyone understands this and plays their proper roles on the stage.
Second, Europe knows that the only outcomes possible for Greece are a long, slow default or a rapid, ugly one. They would prefer the slow boiled frog to the one that gets fricassied, but no longer agonize over the matter. What counts now is to set the proper example for those who are thinking about going over the wall themselves.
Greece will stay in. Others will not leave either. EU sieg am allen fronten. At least that's my guess in the office pool.
I agree, or at least this scenario is what Germany most wants. The threat is not Greece, it is the other sick men of Europe. I speak of Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. WHile media claims these nations have been dealt with and solved, that is a monsterous lie. They are not solved, and their growth potentials are zero. Germany knows that if Greece simply defaults the whole debt burden, people will be in the streets in these other nations demanding default and freedom from debt. Germany would then be fucked!
Haha if Greece left the EU, the Sanctions against Russia would have to be removed. Probably with no apology to Russia.
"The lesson from history is that the status quo we have now is not a tenable structure," said Mr Bosomworth, PIMCO. "There's no historical precedent that this sort of structure, which is centralised monetary policy, decentralised fiscal policy, can last over multiple decades."
I wonder if PIMCO is pushing for a United States of Europe.
He says the Structure hasn't yet been devised, and the chances are distant. But if Bankers start wars and lobby for wars and weapons, then Bankers are Political Animals. PIMCOM maybe signally something here.
Read a copy of the proposed TTIP and replace United with Corporate and you are spot on.
Probably Greece will agree to some further austerity measures, obtain some bridge type loans and push back upcoming repayments until austerity measures become unenforcable due to bureaucratic pushback and civil unrest. By then, Ukraine will also become a major financial/energy drain for West adding another dilemma for Germany. This is why I question any type of economic recovery in Europe even with Draghi printing which would not add to any growth potential but would be used to bailout central banks carrying bad loans. This gets us to 2016, Presidential elections, continued China weakness, continuing political uphevals in ME, higher interest rates with major stock market deterioration here and abroad due to realization we are at the end of the financial debt road.
To Jack Burton: I agree. If I may be allowed to repeat what I posted yesterday, my take on the EU/Troika vs Greece situation is as follows:
It is becoming clear that the EU is the 4th Reich, ostensibly headquartered in Brussels but bossed by Berlin. Greece is just a symptom.
The Euro is the key mechanism for centralization of power in Germany. Germany, with its uber-efficient factories, disciplined labor force, and high tech, overpowers the manufacturers of all the other EU countries. German exports grow and Germany runs huge trade and financial surpluses. Other nations in the EU cannot adjust the value of their currency or interest rate policies to regain competitiveness. The Euro is a boon to Germany and a strait-jacket for the other members of the Euro zone.
Greece is a sub-prime buyer/borrower from Germany. Any European in business knows the history and reputation of Greece as a very bad credit risk. But, with Greece in the Euro, Germany sells vast amounts of goods and services to Greece, while German, French, and Italian banks provide the vendor-financing. The banks know they can rely upon their governments to arrange a bail-out if Greece does not pay. Sure enough, when the EU banks and economies catch contagion in 2009 and 2010 from the 2008 US sub-prime meltdown, the governments of Germany, France and Italy engineer a bail-out of their banks through the Troika "bail-out" of Greece.
In the "Greek bailout", Greece is saddled with the cost of relieving the German, French, and Italian banks of the worthless Greek sovereign bonds and Greek bank IOUs they took as collateral for Euros advanced to Greece and Greek banks. The Greek treasury is now the debtor for all the bail-out funds, and austerity is imposed on the Greek government to prioritize debt repayment over all other expenditures. Greece goes into a depression and suffers 25% overall unemployment, 55%+ youth unemployment, and massive social suffering. The rest of the "PIIGS" are treated similarly, with the EU forcing all of them to adopt austerity as the new economic/budgetary remedy for debt and lack of competitiveness. Austerity has similar effects in all the PIIGS.
Greek voters elected Syriza to get relief from austerity and to stop the fire-sale of Greek assets under IMF rules. But the voters want to keep the Euro and stay in the EU. Tsipras and Varoufakis stopped the sale of assets and are playing out the charade of seeking relief from austerity, and seeking debt relief, knowing full well that the Troika and Germany (see Schaeuble) will stonewall any relief.
The Troika, Germany, and the ruling politicians in Spain and Portugal torpedo every attempt by Greece to negotiate relief. Why? Any relief to Greece will encourage anti-austerity, anti-Euro political sentiments, will create doubts about eventual repayment of PIIGS debts, will damage faith in the Euro and the EU banking system, and any rearrangement of the Euro system might weaken Germany's export domination in the EU.
The Troika and Germany insist that Greece must re-confirm its commitment to austerity, asset sales, and "reforms" while accepting periodic loans to keep up its loan payments, i.e. "extend and pretend" that Greece will eventually repay the debts. Tsipras keeps putting forward lists of "reforms", knowing they will not be accepted by the Troika.
Schaeulbe and Dijselbloem play out their roles as the perfect Teutonic "NO-men" to the Greeks. Tsipras acts as the earnest nice-guy just trying to get relief for his suffering voters but being punched in the face by the nasty Troika and German operatives. The stage is being set by Syriza for a referrendum of the Greek people to be given the choice between:
(a) continue with austerity and misery in the Euro but survive with a drip-feed of new loans to keep the government and banks operating, while Greece's debt load inexorably climbs to ever-more unpayable heights; and
(b) leave the Euro, repudiate the debts, and "do an Iceland". There will be economic and financial dislocations but eventually Greeks will be better off.
Without a mandate from the Greek people to leave the Euro, and even leave the EU, Syria is trying to negotiate with both hands tied behind its back. But with such mandates, suddenly Greece would be in a position to repudiate the debts and the Euro system and thus create havoc in the EU banking system.
If Syriza gets its "Grexit" mandate from the Greek voters, the Troika and Germany will face the choice of giving some relief to Greece (and thus encouraging similar relief demands from Spain, Portugal and Ireland) or seeing Greece repudiate or default on its debts and crash the Euro-zone banking system.
Meanwhile:
1. While Greek requests for relief were being rebuffed, France and Italy have been given relief from their austerity programs, allowing them to run deficits above 3%;
2. The Troika increases the pressure on Greece, threatening to cut off funding of Greek banks as those banks try to cope with the ongoing run of withdrawals, and refusing advances to the Greek government while repayments on bonds become due. The Troika may create a Greek default on its own, since the Greek government is shut out of borrowing markets and is running out of stashes of cash it can grab for debt payments (perfect example of Germanic pig-headedness);
3. Austerity is increasingly unpopular with Europeans, and has not led to economic recovery. The ongoing Troika/Germany versus Greece drama shows that significant relief from austerity cannot be achieved without threatening default or repudiation of debts. Thus voters in Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland are becoming increasingly attracted to ultra-radical anti-Euro parties;
4. Cracks are appearing in the EU banking system from unanticipated quarters - sanctions against Russia, Swiss dropping the Euro peg, and now the meltdown of the Austrian Heta bank and its spreading contagion to German banks; and
5. Draghi gets his covetted QE bond-buying program, which he no doubt sees as the means of saving the Euro, the EU banks, and economic growth in the EU zone, but may be seen as a move in desperation and an admission that they are all tanking.
Germany will not willingly give up its dominant economic position given by the Euro. Nor will Merkel willingly agree to renegotiate Greek austerity because she knows the German people will see this as a gift by German taxpayers to "lazy" Greeks. German pig-headedness may provoke an unintended Greek default, but at least Merkel can say that she did not agree to give relief to Greece. Ironically, under the Fiscal Stability treaty, German taxpayers have guaranteed all the debts of all other Euro member states, so Germany is on the hook with all the other Euro states if Greece defaults in any case.
I'm not saying Germany hasn't won primacy or that a 4th Reich doesn't exist in a Supra-Europe Fashion (let's include a look at South America & USA).
If there were Wealthy Enclaves after WW II in Europe waiting for investment i Production... we might suppose they would be very interested in Rebuilding of Germany. Spain being under Developed. France having a mixed population and mixed Politics showed themselves to be rather independent and prone to worker problems.
But say some of the Enclaves had Nazi Wealth too. I don't know European History and hate to Dis anybody. But you still have old money Royalty along with Tax Friendly Countries and Secrecy Banking was always wide spread: not just Switzerland, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein, Jersey, Guernsey, Caribbean Island,...
Banking is power, Secret Banking is power, Shadow Banking is power, Foreign Investors are power.
What if these Foreign Investments in Germany were higher than the Domestic Investments of these Bank Rollers in their home countries like France, Spain, Nederlands, Italy.
There seems little control of wealth in general, they can export wealth as the right of wealthy, royalty, or bankers.
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World War Resolution from People to War Funders, Weapon Funders, and those that take Political Contributions from War Profiteers:
Make State Leaders, Diplomats, and Banking Executives & their Families stay outside of Bomb Shelters, Underground Bunkers, and lose their seats as Leaders (Public Leaders or Private Leaders)... in the Event of Massive Invasion or Nuclear War.
This is the only way to make big money people Responsible for going to war.
The longer you feed buraucrats (money wasters) to keep this charade the sooner the reversion to Third World for the PIIGS. Markets already know it.
Smoke and Mirror enveloping Banks' bad debts is fast being blown off by the Winds of Reality. Haircuts not even contemplated...what a pipe dream ? Arsenals for soft landing have long lost their effectiveness for the inevitable natural cycle of economic devastations.
Patient Predators should watch this Circus from couches now while exercising for the raids in the sequentail meltdowns.
It's worth pointing out that Syriza is not for a "Grexit" a priori, nor did they receive a mandate from the Greek voters to pursue this option.
Grexit is optional. Default is inevitable and essential.
The sooner the better.
Estimate April 8-10.
Something will happen.
Greece either make the IMF payment or not...and then what follows.
in 10 to 12 days from now.
For Russian help with default, Grexit may not be optional.
The fuckit moment has arrived for Greece.
The creditors have now said fuckit, no more good money after bad.
Now its Athens turn to say fuckit, and not pay the creditors.
Slowly at first, and then all at once is how bankruptcy goes.
They'll default against their troika debt, not out of scorn but of necessity. At some point paying back an impossible debt becomes, well, impossible regardless of rhetoric. You can only fight gravity for so long...
Leadership is this thing where you give Greece no choice and there is no EU Procedure or Mechanism for a member state's Exit from the EU or to Default.
Leadership is giving no choice to those in trouble.
Maybe Greece should go to International Courts or the UN.
Okay, tarabel, I'll take the other side and say that Greece quits the EU at the last moment.
A wonderful opportunity to see how tarabel you really are.
My thinking on this matter is simple: Where there is a will, there is a way.
Greece obviously wants to stay.
The EU obviously wants them to stay.
Rules don't mean anything any longer so they make things up as they roll along. Which means they get to stay.
Apart from that, I do think the rational odds are on your side-- but any Grexit, if it does occur, will come as an unwanted and forced event rather than a voluntary parting of the ways.
If it happens, be sure and look me up and I'll be happy to chew on some black bird for you.
These are not Bailout talks! They are talks to go deeper in debt by taking more loans to pay existing loan obligations. Why does this badly managed stage performance keep going on? CNBC said that a Greece exit from the Euro is all priced in, it poses ZERO threat to American's stock portfolios! It was priced in long ago, so lets move on.
Why? Because there are still a few Greeks living in Greece! http://redefininggod.com/
I agree the Bank Business is tough meaning you have to be tough on those who took your money at high interest rates. A bailout is a Grant a give-away. A tough new loan is not a Bailout at all. What propaganda.
- So UK Banking Sector is showing Growth?
"Osborne's tax grab threatens Britain's regional banking revival, lenders warn, New figures from the BBA show fast growth in banking jobs in Britain's regional hubs"
- PIMCO says Euro can't go on without Central Fiscal Policy. "The lesson from history is that the status quo we have now is not a tenable structure," said Mr Bosomworth. "There's no historical precedent that this sort of structure, which is centralised monetary policy, decentralised fiscal policy, can last over multiple decades."
Screw the Government, the press and the Banks if they can't be honest about what a Bailout is and propagate Propaganda.
- Financial Warriors have to learn to avoid the banks and decrease exposure to the Banks
When I hear CNBC saying that a Greek exit is all priced in I know for sure they are blowing smoke.
If your investment strategy is to invest based on 'it's already priced in' you will end up broke.
Pussies
It looks like the EU has decided to let Greece go. They know the debt will never be repaid, the privatizations they wanted are too slow to come and are encountering stiff resistance from functions within Syriza, and the humanitarian crisis is real and one which may lead to blood being shed in the streets. There is no point at this stage to pissing more money down Greece.
The EU thinks they are forified against a Greek default and exit so they are willing to see what happens when Greece exits. They may even think that the crisis that will ensue in Greece will help keep in line anyone who may entertain similar thoughts.
I think they are in for a nasty surprise.
Greece defaults, receives Rubles from Russia and pays salaries and pensions in Rubles.
One country, two currencies (Euros and Rubles). Russian banks open retail branches for people who want to have bank accounts in Rubles. Greek Post Offices accept and pay out in Rubles too.
Money loaned from Russia is on condition of using it for current account expenses only - none to be paid to banksters.
del. dup.
Isn't that what they did in Zimbabwe, slipped the RMB in with the national currency? Sounds like a plan to me.
The Nords were licking their lips over Greek assets when the Chinese walked in with decent deals to lease the Athens Port, bought an airport, and then started talking about leasing the train system. All of a sudden, the talk of Greece selling their assets stopped. Recently as China's economic outlook is poorer, the EU feels it can cannibalize all Greek assets without Chinese interference.
You may be right, tarabel -- your logic is spot on -- but I hope the Greeks man up, turn to Russia, quickly default, and issue Drachmas.
Hey, the Greeks probably ought to apply for membership in the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, jumping ship with the rest of the 'Fuck the U.S.!' 'rats.' The N.S.A. and Russians probably have some telling, Nuland-like phone call recordings to that effect.
Can't wait to see what happens when Greece screws Russia out of money !
Russia is used to it, for 20 years the Ukraine has burned gas and never paid for it. Oh, they paid a token sum, but nothing like the prices in Western Europe. One reason Ukraine will fail as a western state is they the gas subsidy that Ukrainians take as their birthright is now gone for good. And Ukraine needs gas, it's winters are nothing like the short warm Western European cold snaps they call winter. Right now, Ukrainian industry is shutting down all over the country. Coals mines are shut, even as power plants can't find coal, other nations refuse to sell coal, because of Ukraine's proven track record of NOT paying their bills.
Pfft please.
Greeks invented "democracy", they have had some time to refine it. Nobody mentions the gov workers who will dissapear anything they lay their eyes on, and the regular civs who do the same thing on the flip side.
Just in case there is some confusion, let me explain to you what happens when you have insiders in other countries, heres a couple of examples.
1) Step dad worked at a grocer, workers get the best deals. When a truck shows up, the best shit is set aside, sometimes in liue of wages - why would you want to get paid with fiat when you're just going to take that fiat to a grocery store anyways to buy goods at a marked up rate?
2) Grandpap worked as a forrester. When he would "run out" of govt provided gasoline for his motorcycle/etc, he would get a refill. He would promply "spill" some into several 55 gal drums in the back yard. When times get tough, gasoline would be sold/bartered/traded away.
Now get this through your dumbass skulls. This happens everywhere, everyone knows it and is in on it. It's much rarer in the US between the pleebs because you can end up in jail, unless you are a politician/lobbyman/cop/judge/city worker.
Thanks for sharing yor families criminal history.
It must make a guy proud.
Glad to hear your family is squeeky clean. You should run for president.
PS: It's not criminal when it's the norm. The difference between someone who is in on the scam - and isn't: Starvation
Enjoy your EBT.
Truly, DG
Yawn, just default already for fuck sake.
Agreed, this is getting very fucking boring. Worse than a soap opera.
THe WRITING IS ON THE WALL
"Statistics from Greece show that, as of the end of November 2014, 50-55% of foreigners who have bought properties in Greece were from Russia, while 40-45% were from China."
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150328000006&c...
Pivot to Putin?
The Greeks are well beyond pivots and are doing Pirouettes that would make the Bolshoi Ballet proud.
A Eurozone minister who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said of the submission; "It's all Greek to me."
this is me yawning.
the spin is "all about Greece"
the reality is that there is Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal - all have massive debt issues and much larger than Greece
if they let up on Greece, the problem gets much bigger much faster - Greece is being made an example of so the others get the message
The problem with commenting on the Greek situation (like so many others today) is unless one uses one's intuition, one is almost totally dependant on the MSM and the words of the politicians for one's understanding of the circumstances.
You don't need a tinfoil hat to suspect that Russia may have made a deal with Syriza BEFORE the election (if they won) to bail out Greece and is now encouraging the new government to delay making its decision until Moscow has more of it's ducks in a row.
It goes without saying how much pleasure the Kremlin will get from this payback for the Cypriot Bailout which the EU levied on Russian depositors there almost exactly 2 years ago.
Revenge, like borscht, is a dish best served cold
Russia won't be bailing out Greece. After Greece defaults they may be prepared to provide some financial aid but Russia is certainly not going to provide money for Greece to repay the IMF, ECB, Germany, etc.
There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.
Syriza will leave Greece before Greece leaves the Euro.
If you are borrowing money you are **not** repaying your debts.
...details on how to pay back your creditors...? You don't pay them back. That's the whole point! Refinance, baby.
When have the so called 'elites' ever got any fucking thing right? (An aside - the current meaning of 'elite' brings to mind the evolution of the word 'awful')
Germany et al are acting as though Grexit is prepared for and therefore a sustainable non-catastrophy, thought being that ECB QE has offloaded Greek debt from money centre banks and acceleration of same will smooth out resulting liquidity problems. Since 'THEY' are always wrong, this is likely a gross underestimation.
The former Troika will indeed want to make Grexit an example for the other PII-S, but in the sense that drachma, devaluation, repudiation will cut the Greek economy in half from its current paltry state and immediately exacerbate suffering. This whack will be temporary, but it sure isn't an example others will be keen to follow...
Come one now, just one more troika. I can quit at anytime, I'm in control. Just one more for old times.