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Did Reuters Falsify The Testimony Of A MH-17 Crash Witness?
Even as the world's attention is gripped by the latest airline crash tragedy, in which the motivation of a Germanwings co-pilot to crash his plane with nearly 150 people on board will forever remain in the area of speculation, the most dramatic airplane incident of 2014, that of Malaysian flight MH-17 over east Ukraine, remains - and likewise will will remain forever - unsolved. That, however, does not prevent the media outlets on both sides of the ideological divide to insert their own narrative when the fancy strikes them.
Case in point is the "Exclusive" Reuters report by Anton Zverev from March 12, titled "From 'Red October' village, new evidence on downing of Malaysian plane over Ukraine" which featured what Reuters suggested was new evidence on the downing of the Malaysia Airlines plane. In it Zverev quoted Pyotr Fedotov, a 58-year-old resident from the village of Chervonyi Zhovten "which was then, and is now, controlled by the rebels."
My mother and I were in the yard when it happened," said Pyotr Fedotov, a 58-year-old resident. "There was such a bang that we involuntarily sat down, in the yard, our legs gave way underneath us. Then we got curious and immediately went to the other side of the house to take a look." This is what Reuters said two weeks ago:
"The rocket was here, it wiggled around, then some kind of rocket stage separated, and then, somewhere toward Lutuhyne, Torez, I saw the plane fall apart in the air. It was only later that we found out it was a Boeing,” Fedotov said.
Missiles from a BUK battery can often zig-zag through the air for a few seconds after launch before their onboard radar locks on and steers the missile towards the target, according to video footage of test launches posted on the Internet.
Taken together, the accounts do not conclusively prove the missile launched from near Chervonyi Zhovten was the one that brought down the airliner, because none of the villagers saw it actually being launched.
Nor could they shed light on a contention of officials in Kiev and in Western states, that the BUK missile battery was brought in from Russia and was operated by a Russian crew. Moscow has denied its military is active in eastern Ukraine.
So far no smoking gun, or rocket, merely a retelling of what is largely known. And here Reuters reveals the punchline:
When interviewed by Reuters, Fedotov, the witness who described the 'wiggling' rocket, at first said on camera that it was fired from territory held by the Ukrainian army. Later, off camera, he said it was launched from a nearby rebel area. Asked why he had originally said the opposite, he said it was because he was afraid of the rebels.
Why he said the contradictory "missing link" in the narrative, and the one piece of the story that gives Reuters its "new evidence", off camera is not explained.
Today we may have an answer: in a follow up report by Russian RT, the same villager, Pytor Fedotov on camera said that the Reuters news agency falsified his testimony on the missile launch which brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
As the following interview with Fedotov reveals, the Reuters report may have been "less than accurate" with his testimony.
From RT:
“When we talked about the Boeing on camera, I explained everything as I saw it. The things that I allegedly said off-camera, all this nonsense, was made up by the journalist himself. It's all lies, because off-camera, we never discussed the Boeing, and just spoke about life, about the current situation, so to speak.” Fedotov told RT.
The Lugansk resident added that Zverev later contacted him to ask if the he had gotten in trouble for speaking with the journalist.
"The first thing that he asked was whether I had gotten in trouble. I was really surprised. Why would I be in trouble if I told him about things as I saw them? And only when my friends called me up and told me that some channel was airing footage which noted that I said one thing on camera and the opposite without the camera did I understand why he was asking me this question."
Stating that the so-called off-camera testimony was merely conjecture, Fedotov stated that he doesn't understand why the journalist would fiddle with his testimony. "Maybe he was doing it for his own benefit…I really don't know what his aim was, but it looks to me like a provocation."
RT noted that its requests for comment from Reuters on the controversy have not been responded to.
Who is lying, and who is telling the truth? We probably won't know, just as there will never be conclusive proof of just who took down Malaysia flight MH-17 leading to the tragic death of over 200 innocent civilians. And while perhaps Reuters will address the charge that it purposefully fabricated a critical missing part of the story and reveal its own documented side of the story, we doubt it. After all, the narrative of the Ukraine civil war and its participants has long ago devolved beyond the facts and is now nothing more than propaganda.
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Its called "phoning it in".
To scary and yucky to go looking for crash sites where it is easier to just find a seat at Starbucks in Ukraine and do some creative writing with whip cream on top.......
I'm more confused now then before I read the story..
The fact that MSM isn't playing doomed blackbox footage 20 times a day proving Russian responsibility tells you everything you need to know..
And Reuters became credible when? And while you're thinking about that, thank about this: The same 2 or 3 wallets control all this sh!z. Word to your mutha!
If they had any credibility before they certainly don't now
They could save a lot of time by relocating to 1000 Colonial Farm Road.
as a staunch liberal, i strongly believe the Huffington Post version of all events, which is that, like, Putin is a homophobe and racism is destroying the gay community!
WE MUST DO SOMETHING!!!
Two of us did.
If you actually take his satire literally then you just add to his jokes.
Now three of you are absolutely laughable.
He is a SATIRIST you idjit!!!
LMAO
Dutch investigators will keep the answer away until they kick Putin out, either way, my take is that they will throw Ukraine under the bus!
Evidence Is Now Conclusive: Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17
* * *
MH17 Downed by Ukrainian Military Aircraft: Kiev Regime False Flag Operation
2 Conclusive Reports on MH17 Shoot-down By Ukraine Military Jets
He wanted someone to do something. Satire on satire sounds within reason.
Satire inception...
One can only imagine what lies are being spun about the A320 down in the French Alps.
Reuters is a Rothschild owned publication.
Mystery solved.
Reuters spreading chosenite Rothschild "news" to the dumb goyim for 150 years
Rule nr. 1: never talk to presstitutes, or at least make your own secret recording about the encounter.
Journalism? WTF? Has not been part of the MSM for 40+ years
Reuters is part of Thomson Reuters, which is a publicly traded company.
It is indeed hard to discern fact from propaganda fiction.
A few days ago I ran across a story discussing how Russians are employed in what are effectively trolling factories (link) for spreading Putin's propaganda, and I wondered how many of such workers post here on ZH or even contribute articles like this one.
And then, as if by some invisible hand of the media, I ran across this exact story in another Western outlet and then another, which just about made my head explode in a self-referential loop.
Nice try to diltute the story, asshole. Reuters lied about MH17. Period.
Those pessky Russians.
That's why I never never never! trust Russian info. And always always always! believe everything to the last iota of what Reuters says. Our western media would never spread propaganda or tell a lie.
Yes, because Russia has plenty of spare change laying around to pay people to sit on their ass posting on the internet.
It takes a fast printer to be able to do that...
Yes, we know: Russia Bad, Neo Nazis Good
Ah, the classic psychopathic ploy, accusing the victim of acts conducted by the predator. Might I remind you that Hasbara expertise lies on the western side?
Now, the question remains, are you yourself a western shill, or just born yesterday...
Why does this guy get so many downvotes? He seems to be saying that the whole "Russian troll" meme is a fabrication of western media.
Comprehension skills, folks! C'mon!
Don't come here spouting garbage. Show us the links to the articles you "ran across" in other "Western outlets" that were the same as this one. What outlets?
No evidence = pure B.S.
As requested, links to other outlets carrying the story about Russian trolling factories:
And so on, and so forth. Basically, just Google "Russian Troll Factory" to get all the hits you can digest in an afternoon.
Bottom Line (for those with impaired comprehension): the ongoing game of Spy vs. Spy being waged by all sides in various media outlets genuinely makes ferreting out the truth nearly impossible, absent buying a plane ticket to Ukraine and getting a ringside seat.
A career journalist knows exactly what his story is when he goes in to get it, and he comes out with that story.
Everything else is local color.
Ever been in an event, then read about it in the news? Yep, it's always like that.
I realized it at the ripe old age of thirteen. It is depressing although not surprising to see people 6 times that age never come to the realization. Have they never done or experienced anything in their life worthy of mention in the media to see it twisted? Or are they so damn pathetic, they'll take any "official" word over their own eyes?
They get their talking points every morning and fill in to make the narrative work. Just watch different accounts and see how many even use the same wording.
Filthy lying scumbags.
Even higher on the list for noose night, than politicians imo.
Reuters reporter Anton Zverev has to worry that if he writes this story the wrong way, he will be "Michael Hastinged." What happened to Kiev air traffic controller who initially reported the presence of a Ukraine fighter jet trailng the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet? In Ukraine, one more dead body won't attract a lot of attention.
so RT paid him last. Watch the story turn when FOX shows up
I'm making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do... www.globe-report.com
I'm sure you're blowing something, but I doubt it's winter.
Both sides are twisting the story? Wut?
Did they lie? Ya think?
The flight was diverted from its original path, then diverted lower by the Ukrainian govt.
The rebels do not have a need or arguably the means to down such a plane.
The fuselage clearly shows bullet holes.
The investigation results have been censored.
News flash. The west lied for their benefit after committing a war crime as they have done before and Russia is not twisting this for their gain.
If they wanted Ukraine they would be celebrating the first anniversary of it's liberation already.
As I can see there is only one side to lie consistently from the beginning. This side is the so-called "west". From the moment the crash was reported the western media has been running amok with its fabricated "evidences" and "tesimonials" for a Russian murder.
A Ukraininan SU 25 has brought down MH17 and it has been described in detail how it was done. And yes, the SU 15 can fly very high, and no, there is no evidence for a BUK impact on any piece of the debris - but plenty of holes typically for a 30mm cannon. The cockpit is perforated with these holes and the pilots must have been downright executed from a fighter plane. The case is closed.
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2015/m...
Being shot with a 30mm, that has to hurt.
Rueters "fixed" it for him.
or "Rooters" as in Roto Rooters
Or "Rooters" as in Australia meaning fuckers.
Root/Rooted/Rooters = Reuters
But inspite of it all SOMEBODY does know the truth.
Like the Ukraine fighter pilots that riddled the cockpit with Cannon fire?
It is tragic that there are people who lack remorse.
If it were an accidental takedown then, to some perhaps, it may be excusable as a Friendly Fire event..a tragic accident of a hot war.
Of course the appropriate actions of taking responsibility and the gestures of compensation and remorse for a horrible mistake may have even led to some World sympathy toward Ukraine's air forces. It could even have been presented as a significant reason to demonstrate that the WAR MUST BE STOPPED.
But that did not happen.
The reason why is that the Ukranian Government, along with material and moral support from the Government of the United States of America, proactively sought an excuse to ESCALATE THE WAR. Thus they blame the event upon Russia. This strongly indicates that the shoot down of MH-17 was an INJTENTIONAL FALSE FLAG. This also indicates that it was an INTENTIONAL SHOOT DOWN of a non combatant Civilian Passenger Airliner.
There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for that. NONE.
The Black Boxes, the Physical Evidence, the voice recordings, along with the communications from the Air Traffic control towers will, in all liklihood, support my hypothesis. There is no other reason for the supression of the evidence.
Just why do you think that it has not been released by our friends, the Dutch? Are they afraid that Russia might NUKE the USA in retaliation? They are only in the middle of "No Man's Land" and will take a few Nukes themselves in an all out Nuclear War. Maybe it is an act of self preservationn?
Oh the USA deserves the NUKES for the hell we have caused. And as for Ms. Vicky Nuland? She cannot care any less. She said "Fuck the EU.", after all.
Look at how fast the data materialized from the German Airliner that went down as a result of a suicidal First Officer?
There is no excuse and with each passing day this appers to be more intentional. But they need "plausable deniability". And the fucking Dutch need to grow some balls.
Now you may not know the truth but there is overwhelming evidence and there are none so blind to it that refuse to see it.
Hey! The Dutch got a whole heap of gold repatriated. They earned it, right?
Just whose gold it was is kind of irrelevant in this game.
Yeah, anyone with an open mind can readily come to the same conclusion as you have done ; the facts are plain for all to see. The facts lead to the conclusion that you have reached.
The only difference with the latest 'takedown" is that we didn't have Hilary shrieking that "Putin has gone too far this time".
So it was a message to the Germans . . . don't you dare side with Russia , or whatever it is that is suspected. So the germans can't get their gold back .
I also wonder how any jet fighter pilot could squeeze the trigger and take down a commercial jet and still be able to live with themselves. Humans really are bad creatures. All the good done in the world by humans does not remotely make up for the bad. Why, because the bad is just so horrible, so unconscionable, so depraved and utterly horrific. I can't come to grips with someone dropping a lobster of crab into a pot of boiling water (and not even think twice) let alone shooting down a plane full of kids. How many people posting on this site would boil an animal alive? Humans are a disease on this planet, a bacteris, a virus, a pestilence.
It's time for the earth to shake itself like a flea ridden dog. We are done and the sooner the human race is evicted from the planet the better. Bummer is if humans are destroyed so is the earth due to the hundreds of nuclear reactors spread over the NH. I also wonder how many times throughout the universes history has intelligence arisen to then wipe itself via its nuclear technology. The story may have played out millions of times in the past and will carry on for trillions and trillions of years into the future.
If I replace every instance of "humans" in your posting with the word "sociopath," then I suddenly agree with everything you say. But as it is, your brush is too wide.
You can't trust anything Reuters reports.
List of congressmen supporting arming Ukraine, 348 assholes vs 48 maybe decent politicians, hedge accordingly: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2015/roll131.xml
If this triggers world war III I wonder what these fuckwits would say? We can all see as plain as day that this is exactly the sort of shit that may lead to a nuclear catastrophe. It's apparent that this behaviour is hard wired into our brains and immune from free thinking. We could start writing the hman races eulogy now and lament that "if only the west weren't so provocative in the Ukraine".
Our time on this eath is coming to a close, we have taken too much and cared too little. All of us.
By diluting the blame to include "all of us," you allow the true culprits to escape. Again, your brush is too wide.
Thank you for finding that. I want to see how my local Rep voted to see if I need to take a rather public dump on his social media pages...
Thought so. Maybe I should run against this putz in 2016.
But Wikipedia says that Reyuters is reputable. They wouldn't lie, would they? Lincoln for Christ sake! They're not like the main street media.
Over the years Reuter's agency has built a reputation in Europe and the rest of the world as the first to report news scoops from abroad. Reuters was the first to report Abraham Lincoln's assassination and the dangers of global warming and the wonders of genetically modified .. ok, I exagerated a little on that one.
Yeah, Reuters is so efficient that they can give news even before it happens.
You can make the news ya know
A Rothschild spawned company with its nose firmly up the Anglo-American establishment's ass.
"We probably won't know, just as there will never be conclusive proof of just who took down Malaysia flight MH-17 leading to the tragic death of over 200 innocent civilians"
We probably won't know, just as the existing conclusive proof of who took down Malaysia flight MH-17 leading to the tragic death of over 200 innocent civilians WILL NEVER BE RELEASED. -- there, fixed it!
Nobody took down MH-17. That was MH-370.
"There is no spoon."
Good digging here! They literally are making stuff up to fit their narrative. Interpretation is dangerous enough... but to make stuff up? Wow.
Missles do not leave BULLET HOLES.
Case closed.
You said it! Here's a good article about it;
http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-downed-by-ukrainian...
I agree that we do not know who shot down MH-17. However how do you know the bullet holes were not just put there later, when the plane was already on the ground. Soldiers were all over the site with guns, anyone could have unintentionally put a few rounds in it for perhaps an innocent reason like anger? The question is genuine,
How? Because the first photos taken the day of the crash show the cannon shell holes.
He cannot dicern that "bullet holes" and the holes created by Cannon Fire will be remarkable remarkably different.
Cannon Shells explode on contact. They are designed to pierce armor.
Nobody can just load up a Cannon, hold it, and fire at the wreckage.
I have not seen the photographs. If a fighter jet fired on the passenger jet with its cannon, then it depends on the type of rounds loaded in its cannon.
I seriously doubt that the thin aluminum alloy skin of the airplane could provide the necessary resistance to initiate an armor piercing fuse. It's far, far more likely that an armor piercing cannon shell would pass right through most of the flight deck and passenger cabin.
If the jet was firing AP rounds they would have to make solid contact with thick enough structure to provide significant resistance to initiate the fuse and reduce the rounds velocity so, after the time delay, if any between initiation of the fuse and explosion of the bursting charge, it bursts inside the airplane, or it hits a turbofan engine core, perhaps the engine casing where ancillary components are mounted, the main landing gear, MLG beam or main wheel assemblies, the nose landing gear, NLG mount or NLG wheel assemblies.
There are lots of ifs because a commercial passenger airplane is mostly empty space.
Tracers, loaded at say 4 AP-to-1 tracer, begin burning when fired from the cannon, could easily start a fire if they stay within the airplane. If they punch straight through they won't do much damage besides adding more holes in the pressurized cabin.
You are right, some shells may have passed through the airplane unexploded, some may have detonated inside. result is much the same. A punch hole in the skin and then the loss of structural integrity so the pressure inside literally bursts the airplane. Wreakage pieces witness this airborne disintegration of the cockpit.
You are right of course. The area around the pilots side of the cockpit, the righthand wing and engine cowling, plus both pilot seats bear perfect 30MM cannon shell holes. I have presonally, on photographs counted over 25 100% perfect cannon shell holes. The pilot was, according to sources from the authopsy, cut nearly in two. Their is also lesser evidence of air to air missile sharpnel in an engine.
The small air to air missiles are meant to shoot down smaller planes, not large airliners. So the first missile did not fully do the job.
Witnesses on the ground, interviewed only minutes after the plane came down. Reported jet fighters in the area, and reported one, maybe two escorting the Air Liner.
Lets be clear, the west all says the rebels did it. YET, 8 months into the investigation and we can't even get the black box information!
What does that tell any sane person? "The west in lying, they have no evidence, all the evidence says the Ukraine Air Force SU-25 did it."
We know the pilot's name. he airfield he operated from. The numbers of the two jets that took off that day. A airfield technician saw on SU-25 take off witht wo air to air missiles and return with none. He is being kept in witness protection for the day a real trial takes place.
Okay, if you think the rebels did it, anyone, please post right away and refute anything I just said. And tell me the evidence for rebels shootin it down. Rebels had no missiles that can reach that high, no radars to provide tracking or fire control. But they still shot it down? Unlikely.
Witnesses on the ground, interviewed only minutes after the plane came down. Reported jet fighters in the area, and reported one, maybe two escorting the Air Liner.
Same story with Germanwings.I read somewhere that three jets took off but only one returned. Did they land elsewhere or were they disposed of? The witness in protective custody is still in danger if he's in Ukraine. Mercs are everywhere killing for sport and wouldn't think twice about one more.
I do not recall "perfect holes" in those pictures Jack. I looked at a bunch of shredded aluminum, along with those holes, which was indicative of Cannon Fire and not Air to Air Missile shrapnel.
Perhaps my recollection is faulty.
I agree that the Ukranian Fighters blew MH 17 out of the sky.
Tall Tom, is this what you remember?
http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/photos-of-mh17-cockpit-prove-no-m...
What is the pilots name? It needs to be spread far and wide over the internet. He needs to be brought to justice.`
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2014/12/meet-pilot-who-shot-down-malysian.html
Well, of course not, they are the news, and you must believe everything they tell you or....gosh, that wouldn't be healthy for you. Just believe them....'nuf said.
Brian Willams reporting from the Ukraine, where everything I report is a lie, back to you Tom. Thanks for that riveting account of he said-she said Brian, you be safe over there.
Now turning to domestic news, ObamaCare got its 300 millionth enrolee today proving once and for all that technocracy is an exact science and unicorns shouldn't be allowed in air corridors over war zones.
I'll be back with my closing thoughts in a moment.
ROFLMAO
And now, let's have a word from our sponsors...
But first!...
Let me take a selfie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CtUUaWi5Kc
Reuters NWO
A couple of instances in this report where they say we will never know the truth. Bullshit. If the USSA would release their satellite images we would know tomorrow.
Takes a lot of media legwork to hide the truth that the Ukrainian neo-Nazi's shot down that plane.
Or, they shot it down with the help of the C.I.A. to foment anger at Russia, since the Muslim bogeyman is losing efficacy.
Russia is giving the US and its EU toadies every opportunity to come clean with what they know. This opportunity will remain available until the "official" report comes out later this year.
There is a civil war taking place on Russia's border. All radar data, all radio communications, all signals intelligence, everything, is being monitored and recorded by them. When the US-approved version of what happened is released in the "official" report, Russia will be in a position to reveal every deviation from what actually happened. The recording of the radio conversation between the MH-17 pilot and Ukrainian air traffic control will be released. By someone.
Indeed Stooge. The USA knows every single thing that happened that day. Out radio and signals intelligence captures all electronic emissions. No radar car turn on, no missile can fire without the US military knowing it. Those who say "We can never rally know", they a liars. Since they have been caught red handed lying, they now have only the fall back position of "We can never know".
These cowards who post those lies, they have the blood of nearly 300 people on their hands. Liars care more about their side winning than any of the people the SU-25 killed that day.
I'm kind of confused by the Dutch reaction. With so many of its citizens as victims, I'm surprised they wouldn't just say, "Yeah... fuck your coup and cover-up. Tell us what the hell happened to our people." I understand the usual ball-less reactions to run-of-the-mill U.S. policy, but this is clearly an exception. If any nation had a reason to be totally pissed off at the U.S. and demand answers, this would be it.
Any Dutch out there? WTF? Is it that pointless to demand your government do something and demand answers or do the Dutch really believe some kind of impartial investigation will eventually reveal the truth? I'll remind you that the U.s. is involved and I'm pretty sure they have already fabricated the truth. You're seriously going to wait for that?
Well, thet did get their gold. How many ounces is a pound of Dutch flesh worth?
The Dutch government is bought-and-paid-for just like the rest of the western regimes.
Dutch media also wnet into full liar mode, filled people with lies and half truths. Now they are silent for the most part.
Sadly, at this point, I believe nothing. I don't believe reports, opinions, possibilities...shit I can't even believe videos. When I see a mushroom cloud on the horizon I might believe we've been screwed.
That is exactly what they aimed to accomplish with their lies. In your case, they have won the battle. You believe there is no truth.
I think there is no truth. Truth is dependent on the personal view. Killing animals to eat them, for most humans is fine, for the poor animals it is slavery, terror, torturing of the highest imaginable degree.
I think the imagination, that there was truth and "free media" could be reporting it, has been the most effective propaganda trick ever.
In an open dictatorship people know, the news cannot be fully trusted, they develop on their own the capability to read between the lines, they also know they'd need to hear the other side. All this potnetial for critical thinking is eliminated in Democracies.
People in Democracies believe, that media outlets were reporting the truth, because there was no open censorship. What people UNTIL today have not understood, that money and ownership probably are the much stronger invisible weapons for censorship, than open censorship.
The devastation the "free press"-propaganda in democracies has created is one of the reasons, why the international banksters can kill HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people, wage over hundred attack wars since WW2, and the sheeple do not even recognize how aggressive their regime is and how many millions they are killing tehmselfes, by supporting it - because they believe, if they buy a "free media", that they would be objectively informed. So it's beyond their imagination, that their regime could be worse than any tyranny.
But if people would know, that truth does not exist, but it can be approximated with a certain methodology, then I believe TPTB would have more difficulties:
AUTIATUR ET ALTERA PARS. If people would understand, that there is no judge in the world, who expects that the two parties at court tell him the truth, but that he can come closer to the truth by LISTENING TO BOTH SIDES, then people suddenly would understand, what an incredible CHUTZPAH the lie about "free press" is. That it's not about being "well informed", but about the ability to listen to the arguments of both sides.
Therefore most ZHers are reading ZH for the wrong reasons, too. They believe ZH would tell them the truth, while others are lying. That's wrong and not better, than the sheeple consuming CNN or FOX and believing to be better informed than people in Iran or Russia! ZH is NOT reporting the truth! ZH is offering the arguments of the "other side". And they only can be judged, if the arguments of the other side are well known. That's how ZH attributes to the truth! Not by reporting it, but by offering the other view.
AUDIATUR ET ALTERA PARS.
Everything else is already a lie.
"for the poor animals it is slavery, terror, torturing of the highest imaginable degree."
You lost me right there. I know that this is most often not true.
Of course in nature predators can be kind of inconsiderate . . .
"You lost me right there. I know that this is most often not true."
Look how our human predator species is slaughtering animals and treating animals and you should be able to understand what I have written.
Maybe imagine that you are the animal and an alien is treating you and your children, like you treat animals. That should help.
And the difference to animal predators is, that humans have the capability of empathy. And human predators even know, that animals feel pain as we do. Nevertheless human predator species doesn't care.
Get it now?
But if people would know, that truth does not exist, but it can be approximated with a certain methodology, then I believe TPTB would have more difficulties:
Really. And by what standard will you measure the approximation "with a certain methodology" against? Consensus? LMAO.
How can anything be certain in a paradigm without an absolute truth? This is fucking humorous.
(Besides this just sounds too much like our fraudulent floating Fiat Currency evaluation system. This is the reason, folks, why we have it.)
Either there is some reference point or not. If there is not one then everything is random and MAKE IT UP and then BELIEVE. MAKE BELIEVE. Your are living in a delusional fantasy. If there is then I suggest that you seek the standard.
Personally i choose reality, ideally EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. But you are free to live in a fantasy if you so shall choose. Knock yourself out, man.
Even in the Therory of Relativity, with no preferred frames of reference, there is one, and only one standard, from which everything else is measured. (Light speed in vaccuum.) That is the constant. That is the standard.
So sorry. There is absolute truth. And you are so deluded as you refuse to understand that.
And as for two parties in a courtroom. Generally writing, although there may be rare exceptions...
Yes there may be two separate stories. But the truth is not somewhere in between. Both parties are lying through their teeth and the truth exists totally outside of what those liars are saying. Both parties have impeached their testimony and their words, all of them, are incredible at that point.
But TT, if there was empirical evidence of an absolute truth then I would have no choice but to concur with you.
I look at the world and I see absolute chaos, absolute suffering, absolute hell for many living things (people and animals).
I ask what would a world without any supreme guiding hand be like? The world in which we live is my answer.
The bible is not empirical evidence of anything just as a book written by a physicist about the speed of light is equally not empirical evidence of anything. It's a book, nothing more.
Empirical evidence constitutes a set of results or outcomes that can be repeatably attained regardless of the person or group of people conducting the experiment.
The bible is nothing more than hearsay, you just can't argue with this. It's just a series of books. NOTHING MORE. Books whose origins are barely known with any degree of certainty or accuracy. Books whose authors are barely know with any degree of certainty or accuracy. Books whose information cannot, by definition, be even remotely accurate. How do I know this? Common sense. There was no one taking notes or walking around with a recorder or dictaphone when all the supposed quotes in the bible were made. So how did what jesus say make it into the bible some 70+ years later. It cam't, you know it can't. Not with even the remotest accuracy.
Do me a favour and watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gELzYupzXs
What are your thoughts? The stories written in the bible have been repeated many many times and thousands of years before the purported emergence of christ. It's a difficult pill to swallow but I suggest at some point we have to call a spade a spade and accept it's all bullshit. The stories in the bible cannot take any precedence over the Australian aborigine dreamtime stories.
All these stories, of all these cultures are the result of a primordial mind grappling with it's own existence.
We, scientists, atheists, theologists, theists, believers, agnostics, scientologists (whatever the fuck they are) know jack squat. The answers are forever out of our reach, assuming that a quest for answers even makes sense. Maybe it only makes sense in our incredibly local experience of the universe. I suspect if we were handed the answer on a silver platter (if there is one, answer, not platter) we wouldn't even understand it as an answer, wouldn't even recognise it, even if it was leather bound in a book.
You are a smart guy, and I'm not pissing in your pocket here. I've read alot of your posts and you've obviously done one hell of a lot of reading. I'm baffled by your confusion of empirical evidence and christianity. Is there any shred of your psyche that would be willing to admit to the effects of the culture of western brain washing/indoctrination. If you say "yes, maybe" then OK, I get it. If not then I'll be even baffled more. You see, I don't a give a shit what the asnwer is, it doesn't even make any sense to give a shit because we have absolutely no control over it. So I don't care if a god created the universe, I only care about empirical evidence, the same thing you covet. But how can two people who hold empirical evidence as the only way to truth (if it exists) come to absolutely opposite conclusions.
One of us has the wrong understanding of empirical evidence.
Understanding that there is no unified theory, that in fact everything is random, does not make one delusional. It makes one free.
"Really. And by what standard will you measure the approximation "with a certain methodology" against?"
Was the shouting with captions not loud enough?
Audiatur et altera pars.
That's the methodology. And using logic to judge the arguments of each side is the measure, which argument could be closer to the truth.
And if you would understand the empiric scientific methodology, you would not write there exists absolute truth, too. It may exist, it may exist not. It doesn't matter if it exists, because of two facts:
1. Being in harmony with oneself and the cosm, does make an imagination of absolute truth obsolete, it makes it vanish. Only if you are missing something, you need the imagination of an absolute truth. But I know that my cats have a different truth. And the bee on the flower has her own truth, too. Why should I destroy this wisdom by believing that I was the centre of the universe and therefore the things I believe in, must be absolute?
2. We can only - in the best case! - according to the scientific empiric view, approximate truth. So claiming that it exists, is also useless from the scientific view. It's not even necessary, because a theory is good, until it works without contradictions. And if it does no longer work, it's time to give it up and use a better one.
Both aspects do not change the fact, that we can only use our senses and logic and check the arguments to hopefully be able to approximate the truth, but we will never KNOW.
We could FEEL certain truths. But that's subjective for US and therefore also cannot be postulated as absolute truth.
You can know certain truths for yourself. You can ignore logic, as you do, have no clue about general or special relativity theory but believe the speed of light was aboslute. And you can make this your guidance in life. But that doesn't make it an absolute truth.
Theories exist - until they are proven wrong.
"Personally i choose reality, ideally EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE."
Cool, proove me you love your mother! How materialistically and domatically brainwashed must someone be, that he doesn't even recognize, that the most important things in life are OUTSIDE of the materialistic empirical world and can't be proven?
You are talking about absolute truth. And ofcourse you are in the possession of it - but you don't understand why AUDIATUR ET ALTERA PARS is the way to inform oneself int he media...
We falsified some folks.
Who cares? The world now has Yemen to watch. Gold is sliding again so all things must be well... right?
No more ready shoot, aim NATO exercises.
but I thought that Roooters was zion owned?
"Did Reuters Falsify The Testimony Of A MH-17 Crash Witness?"
I'll let you know when I figure out where bears shit.
The banksters need to repay us.
Being an astute monitor of the propaganda media, I remember wondering about how all the complicit-media outlets were Johnny on the same script on MH-17. When they do that, the fix is usually in.
"And in other propaganda, Zion wants you to know, and think, about these things..."
Reminds me of a convo my friends and I had with a new member of our weekly outings.
He had been encouraged to investigate 9/11, Sandy Hoax, Boston, Paris, MH-17, etc., as he could not believe what we were saying about them. He probably thought us nuts. When he didn't show up at the next couple outings, we all laughed that, "We had scared another one off."
Two weeks ago he shows up at the restaurant, and during dinner starts to talk about what he has uncovered about those events. He said that he is just not quite sure, as, "How could they get all the media outlets to say the same things, and even show a building still standing while they discuss its demise?" We had a great laugh, and then told him, "Now let us introduce you to Zion."
We had a blast with the canned and faked footage from Sandy Hoax.
Zion lost another one to the Lightside that night.
The banksters need to repay us.
"And we go live to queued up footage from months ago at another school..."
"Peter Haisenko, a veteran pilot for Germany's Lufthansa Airlines, told Sputnik Friday that evidence on the wreckage of the MH17 clearly indicates that the plane was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet.
"Wreckage from the plane clearly shows that the plane was shot at by a fighter jet in the air. This is an undisputable fact," Haisenko noted. "We have photos of the aircraft, showing evidence that it was fired upon [from the air]. The aircraft's remains, the majority of which have now been collected in the Netherlands, do not bear any traces of having been fired upon by the Buk missile system. This is sufficient evidence to form a clear conclusion."
The veteran pilot noted that "moreover, the remains of an R-60M air-to-air rocket have been found alongside the remains of the aircraft. This confirms that the course of events is exactly as I have described them: the [aircraft-launched] missile hit one of the airliner's engines, and after it failed to fall out of the sky, the cockpit was fired upon directly."
I checked all photos that this German pilot refers to, I saw exactly the same damage he saw. Or do our eyes lie?What does one expect from Reuters?
They STILL have the story that Russia and China did NOT sign the gas deal up on their web site:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/20/us-china-russia-idUSBREA4J0562...
Putin yet to seal gas deal on China visit, wins support on Ukraine SHANGHAI | By Alexei Anishchuk and Fayen Wong(Reuters) - China and Russia failed to sign a $400 billion gas supply agreement on Tuesday, despite growing urgency for the Kremlin to seal a deal as it faces economic and political isolation in the West over the crisis in Ukraine.
Negotiators from both countries have been unable to bridge differences on price, a spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin said in Shanghai, meaning that the contract was not signed on Tuesday as many in the industry had predicted.
But there is still a chance that the two sides could agree before Putin leaves China on Wednesday, or, more likely, in time for an economic forum in the Russian city of St. Petersburg later this week.
Despite disappointment so far over an energy deal seen as vital to both countries' long-term economic interests, Putin did receive a rare nod of support from Chinese President Xi Jinping over the Ukraine crisis.
In a statement issued after the two leaders met, Russia and China called for the de-escalation of tensions in Ukraine and for "peaceful, political ways to resolve existing problems." The countries also referred to the crisis as "domestic".
Across much of the rest of the world, Putin stands accused of fomenting pro-Russian sentiment in neighboring Ukraine, which has already lost the peninsula of Crimea after it was annexed by Moscow.
In more recent conciliatory steps, Putin ordered Russian forces massed on the Ukraine border to return to bases and welcomed what the Kremlin called initial contacts between the Ukraine government and those calling for more power for largely Russian-speaking regions in the east.
China's Xi has underscored the importance of ties with Russia, and Moscow was the first capital he visited after assuming the presidency last year. Xi also attended the Winter Olympics in Sochi at Putin's invitation.
Related CoverageWhile observing a joint naval exercise conducted outside of Shanghai, Xi and Putin said the two neighbors would cooperate to maintain stability in the region.
But, while the two see eye-to-eye on many diplomatic issues including the conflict in Syria, and generally vote as one on the United Nations Security Council, China has been less willing to support Russia openly on Ukraine.
CHINA "HAS UPPER HAND"
Expectations had run high that Putin's China visit would provide the setting for both parties to ink a contract under which state-owned Gazprom would supply China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) with 38 billion cubic meters (bcm) of natural gas a year for 30 years.
After more than a decade of false starts, there has been a convergence of interests as European countries look to reduce dependency on Russian natural gas supplies amid the Ukraine crisis and Beijing seeks to switch from coal to cleaner fuels.
China's gas consumption is forecast to more than double between 2014 and 2020, while Beijing's move to curb coal use led to a severe gas supply shortage last winter.
The failure to reach a deal so far, despite talk of a narrowing price gap, suggests China is driving a hard bargain.
"Despite all the talk out of Russia, despite their desperation, China has the upper hand," said Gordon Kwan, regional head of oil and gas research at Nomura Research.
"China wants to really squeeze the price lower. China has other options such as the gas project in Sichuan and North American liquefied natural gas. I think it will be a
Russia if they couldn't agree on a deal just because of the price."
Gazprom's shares were down 2.3 percent at 1105 GMT on Tuesday, underperforming a flat Moscow stock market.
But Russia said there was still a chance a deal could be reached in China.
"The visit is not over yet. Talks will continue ... substantial progress is reached but there is still work to do on price," Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, told reporters. "Talks are going on today, it can happen absolutely any moment."
Analysts said other issues, such as details over pipeline construction, upstream equity participation for Chinese firms and pre-payment, may have also contributed to the delay.
Chinese state media on Monday quoted Putin as saying that preparations for a gas deal had entered "the final phase", while
Gazprom said at the weekend that it was "only one digit" away from a deal.
It was not clear exactly what the "digit" referred to.
Gazprom's average 2013 gas sale price to Europe was $10.60 per million British thermal units (mmBtu) - the pricing standard used in global gas trade. That works out at $380 per 1,000 cubic meters according to the pricing convention used in Russia.
Industry sources have said Gazprom was hoping for $10-$11 per mmBtu from China. China is understood to pay $9 per mmBtu to Turkmenistan, the former Soviet state in Central Asia that beat Gazprom to the Chinese market.
Sources close to Gazprom and in the gas industry said the company wanted China to pay $25 billion up front to secure future gas supplies, which should start in 2018.
China has so far not been willing to commit, concerned that other suppliers would seek similar deals.
Russia and China said in the joint statement that they would strengthen cooperation in energy and infrastructure in Russia, and would also step up financial cooperation and look to increase trade in the ruble and the yuan currencies.
(Additional reporting by John Ruwitch and Kazunori Takada in SHANGHAI, Chen Aizhu in BEIJING and Florence Tan and Jacob Pederson in SINGAPORE; Writing by Fayen Wong; Editing by Mike Collett-White)
Ever since reading this article i have NEVER gone back to reading them. EVER.
I believe the old buck.
Jack
who's the guy voting you down?
I wonder what he has to say, or do I?
Don't let yourself get interviewed. You never know who journalist really works for. Or make sure you have your own camera or recorder with you recording everything even when they are 'off camera'.
Last Sunday I looked at CNN. Sometimes I want to have a good laugh so I go there. There was Amanpor interviewing the new Ukranian finance minister who wants to crack down on corruption. Amanpour already concluded in the first sentences that Ukraine was sufferring from the war economically and that was Russia's fault, that MH-17 was shot down by Russian backed rebels (not impossible but based on what evidence did she say that?), etc. She fails to mention that the Ukraine president himself is a corrupt oligarch. Then she introduces the Ukranian finance mininster and fails to mention that 48 hours prior to taking that post she was still a US citizen. Then the woman starting talking in perfect English and then I switched channel laughing but also with a sense of worry because people take whatever the 'World's new leader says' for fact.
all news sources falisy information
it's their business!!this site has become such a bullshit disinfo gatekeeping outlet.
ofcourse they fucking falsified it, like 90% of the shit they peddle is fake and most of these people are crisis actors, literally every other week they are peddling some fake shit just like this mh-17 psyop bullshit with a bunch of bad actors on tv telling us some thing that didnt happen did happen and this site is gonna come in here and try and push this shit like its an isolated incident instead of the complete norm.
What I don't understand is if this was a BUK Missile, why did no one take a photo of or report a contrail into the sky? These are rockets the size of an electrical pole and leave a contrail in the sky half a kilometer wide? Very large heat signature that a satellite could pick up.
I think people did not ask enough questions.
There have been some reasonable reports suggesting russian soldiers using a BUK battery downed the plane (for instance an extensive report in "Der Spiegel"). BUT: (1) "Der Spiegel" said it is possible that a ukrainian bomber jet used the shadow of MH-17 to hide and to avoid an attack by a BUK-battery, and that the BUK battery fired when the shadow detached from MH-17 and that MH-17 was hit. This theory is supported by very esarly Russian allegations published on the webpage of the defense ministry that a ukrainian warplane was visible on Russian radar screens in proximity to MH-17 (2) Undisputedly MH-17 diverted 12 nautical miles into the war territory from the international flight corridor and this deviation remains unexplained and the audio protocols from the tower in Kiev have been confiscated and the contents is unknown to the public (3) Kiev lost 3 warplanes at heights in excess of 30.000 feet due to BUK missiles over the east Ukraine in the 48 hours before the MH-17 incident but refrained from closing the airspace for civil planes. (1) is an assumption and (2) and (3) are facts. Because of the facts (2) and (3) I conclude that the Ukraine is primarily guilty for the downing of MH-17 irrespective whether (1) is correct or the Russian allegation that a Ukrainian fighter jet downed MH-17 with an air-to-air missile. It is also to be said that the Dutch general attorney did repeatedly say that the prejudgement of Russia is not yet supported by evidence. I can therefore not agree that the crash remains a mystery. It is sufficiently clear who is responsible for this atrocity. Maybe the EU can send some more tax-payers money to Ukraine to provide for some ethical training.
flight 17 on the 17th of the 7th month in the 14th year
unbelievable
The Joint Investigation Team consists of four countries - the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and Ukraine - who are carrying out an investigation into the MH17 disaster, but not Malaysia. Malaysian Airlines, who operated the flight,
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/11/20/dutch-government-refuse...
From the day of disaster, most of us have assumed that shooting down MH17 was a mistake either by the Ukrainians or the Separatists. But now, 8 months later, reviewing how the investigation has evolved, it looks likely that the West deliberty shot down a passenger plane to have weightier charges against Russia than anti-Gay laws and Greenpeace meanness. No doubt stemming from Putin's welcoming Snowden.
This Dutch article today, calmly written, with absolutely no admissible evidence, will be the final opinion of the JIT. In the remaining weeks and months, perhaps Belgium or Australia will be able to create a counterfeit ATC tape which end all doubt about the guilt of Russia.
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/03/30/strong-evidence-found-of-separatist-...
Reuters is the same pedigree as The Lobotomist (aka The Economist):
A Promulgator of "Authoritative" Lies on behalf of the *SCUMMM (London Branch)
(*Satanic Cabal Underwriting Mass-Murder & Mayhem)
"Was Spanish Intel Team Specializing In Cyber-terrorism The Real Target Of Germanwings Takedown?"
Another episode of the infamous Crypto AG?
See State Of The Nation
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=13190
The trip from Minsk 2 to Barcelonnette 1 was an epic journey for Merkel & Hollande and the vaunted Franco German ...Russo alliance. Whether it will hold against the Empire of Chaos remains to be seen after this "accident".....
http://mediafilter.org/caq/cryptogate/
for my money the smoking gun is the 'special' way the Ned, The USA, NATO et al. are 'handling' the fake investigation. alll secret, veto rights by anyone o.n the 'team'. what the fuck does this chcanery have to do with 'truth' or accident investigation.
fuck the liars. dutch people should be clobbering their phoney politicians with wooden shoes.
kerry, obabm, poroshenko, merkel, rasmussen, soros..charge em with war crimes and throw their dirty asses in a deep cold prison i say.
"kerry, obabm, poroshenko, merkel, rasmussen, soros..charge em with war crimes and throw their dirty asses in a deep cold prison i say."
Great idea. Unfortunately the bastards who need to be arrested and thrown in prison own the justice department, the courts and law enforcement, as well as the prisons.
Foxy bastards own the freakin' madhenhouse we're livin' in and that wasn't by accident and it didn't happen just recently. We're only now catching on to what's been going on right in front of our noses for our entire lives. Eyes wide shut.
Godiva. genuine answer, The 'bullet holes' are elongated showing that when they hit, the metal they impacted was moving fast at a crossing angle. If the target was stationary the holes would be round and not elliptical. So the shots impacted when the wreakage was moving quickly in a forwards direction.
People also seem to forget that Israel launched their Hamas offensive 15 minutes after the airline was shot down.
This is either unbelievable timing or the Israelis used the airline distaster as a diversionary tactic. Or they orchestrated the bombing in the first place.
Reuters is nothing but a propoganda rag, reminiscent of old soviet "journalism". To find out what is really going on in the world, one has to read foreign and alternative news sources and piece together a picture from that.
Of course Reuters lied. The only thing in the MSM that isn't generally a pack of lies and distortions from start to finish is last night's sports results.
When was the last time they let the facts get in the way of a chance to make Putin look bad?
Did any Ukie answer to why that was the only recent flight on that flight path and that it was diverted in that direction? It stinks, stinks I tell ya.
ask the Jews
I thought everyone who denied MH17 was shot down by an SU-25 was to be shouted down?
I thought that there were no reports of anyone seeing a missile, and those reports that did exist must be forgeries?
Because the Russian Air Force General said there was an SU-25 on radar a few dozen miles away?
Now it is fait accompli that MH17 was shot down by a BUK?
But it must have been a Ukrainian BUK?
Because it had to be a false flag?
Because only the Ukrainians, who were doing most of the flying over Eastern Ukraine, had something to gain from shooting down aircraft over the Ukraine?
Because the Rebel Ukrainians, who were being daily struck by Ukrainian aircraft, had nothing to gain by shooting down aircraft over Eastern Ukraine?
And anyone who disagrees must be at least a supporter of a Junta (despite elections)???
It is foolish to get in the middle of a Ukrainian family fight. MH17 wasn't so lucky.
There is no part of this story that doesn't smell worse than a 10-day old fish.
The Western news media has been spitballing this thing from day one, whatever will stick is the "real story". The neocons miss the good old days of cold war skullduggery, and are having a blast with Putin these days.
I have never seen testimony from another eyewitness about the rocket.
That trail of rocket exhaust would have been seen over 20 miles radius, why no other witnesses?
Without other confirmation, I don't believe this, not either version. Especially given the bullet holes in the airplane, not shrapnel holes.
Ahhh Reuters, the ever so impartial news agency that supplied all the Western press with pictures of black clad ISIS members in ski masks staging a victory parade through Tel Abyad whilst at the same time the only mention of war by locals on Twitter was that the local bakery was back up and running after being hit by a stray shell some days earlier.