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How to Beat Internet Trolls
In order to beat Internet trolls, you have to know their strategies.
Below are 17 common games played by trolls to disrupt our power to learn, inform, and organize on the web ...
1. Threaten those who speak out, to try to intimidate them and their readers into silence.
2. Misquote the Bible to pretend that God commands us to be obedient slaves to authority … even if the powers-that-be are downright tyrants.
3. Start a partisan divide-and-conquer fight or otherwise push emotional buttons to sow discord and ensure that cooperation is thwarted. Get people fighting against each other instead of the 3corrupt powers-that-be. Use baseless caricatures to rile everyone up. For example, start a religious war whenever possible using stereotypes like “all Jews are selfish”, “all Christians are crazy” or “all Muslims are terrorists”. Accuse the author of being a gay, pro-abortion limp-wristed wimp or being a fundamentalist pro-war hick when the discussion has nothing to do with abortion, sexuality, religion, war or region. Appeal to people’s basest prejudices and biases. And (as explained by H. Michael Sweeney’s 25 Rules of Disinformation) push the author into a defensive posture:
Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule … Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
(The person trying to smear reputation may not be a random knucklehead … he may, in fact, be a government agent, or a member of the group he’s smearing.)
4. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive. Or accuse the author of being a narcissist.
5. Pretend it’s hopeless because we’ll be squashed if we try. For example, every time a whistleblower leaks information, say “he’s going to be bumped off”. If people talk about protesting, organizing, boycotting, shareholder activism, spreading the real facts, moving our money or taking other constructive action, write things to scare and discourage people, say something like “we don’t have any chance because they have drones and they’ll just kill us if we try”, or “Americans are too stupid, lazy and greedy, so they’ll never help out.” Encourage people to be apathetic instead of trying to change things.
6. Demand complete, fool-proof and guaranteed solutions to the problems being discussed. For example, if a reporter breaks the story that the big banks conspired to rig a market, ask “given that people are selfish and that no regulation can close all possible loopholes … how are you going to change human nature?”, and pretend that it’s not worth talking about the details of the market manipulation. This discourages people from reporting on and publicizing the corruption, fraud and other real problems. And it ensures that not enough people will spread the facts so that the majority know what’s really going on.
7. Suggest extreme, over-the-top, counter-productive solutions which will hurt more than help, or which are wholly disproportionate to what is being discussed. For example, if the discussion is whether or not to break up the big banks or to go back on the gold standard, say that everyone over 30 should be killed because they are sell-outs and irredeemable, or that all of the banks should be bombed. This discredits the attempt to spread the facts and to organize, and is simply the web method of the provocateur.
8. Pretend that alternative media – such as blogs written by the top experts in their fields, without any middleman – are untrustworthy or are motivated solely by money (for example, use the derogatory term “blogspam” for any blog posting, pretending that there is no original or insightful reporting, but that the person is simply doing it for ad revenue).
9. Coordinate with a couple of others to “shout down” reasonable comments. This is especially effective when the posters launch an avalanche of comments in quick succession … the original, reasonable comment gets lost or attacked so much that it is largely lost. Use “forum sliding” and “topic dilution” to so dilute and distract the conversation that people forget the original point.
10. Use technology and numbers to gain leverage. You can either hire low-wage workers in India or other developing countries to “astroturf” (see this and this) or – if you work for the government – you can use military personnel or subcontractors to monitor social media and “correct” information which you don’t like (and see this). You can pay students to post pro-government comments online. You can even use software which allows you to quickly create and alternate between numerous false identities, each with their own internet address. Or program software to write the comments itself.
11. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit.
12. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
13. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues — so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.
14. Censor social media, so that the hardest-hitting information is buried. If you can’t censor it, set up “free speech zones” to push dissent into dank, dark corners where no one will see it.
15. When the powers-that-be cut corners and take criminally reckless gambles with our lives and our livelihoods, protect them by pretending that the inevitable result – nuclear accidents, financial crises, terrorist attacks or other disasters – were “unforeseeable” and that “no could have known”.
16. Protect the rich and powerful by labeling any allegations of criminal activity as being a “conspiracy theory”. After all, it was the CIA itself which created the perjorative term “conspiracy theorist” and gave advice on how to attack people on that basis. For example, when Goldman gets caught rigging markets, label the accusations as mere conspiracies. Throw in the tired out cliches “tinfoil hat” and “live in your mom’s basement.”
17. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain the criticism — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint.
Postscript: Over a number of years, we’ve found that the most effective way to fight disruption and disinformation is to link to a post such as this one which rounds up disruption techniques, and then to cite the disinfo technique you think is being used.
Specifically, we’ve found the following format to be highly effective in educating people in a non-confrontational manner about which game the troll is playing:
Good Number 1!
Or simply:
(include the link so people can see what you’re referring to.)
The reason this is effective is that other readers will learn about the specific disruption tactic being used … in context, like seeing wildlife while holding a wildlife guide, so that one learns what it looks like “in the field”. At the same time, you come across as humorous and light-hearted instead of heavy-handed or overly-intense.
Try it … It works.
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I'm sure you'd rather not have my support, but I must say,
AMEN!
The idea we must always support our government as christians is HOG-WASH. Anyone who has read the end of the Book and the descriptions of the evil power that will overtake the world must come to grips with the fact that our government is the very entity we are told to run for the hills from, NOT SUPPORT!
You are more than smart enough to know that "context" is everything when it comes to discovering the truth; you do not appear to have looked at the context concerning why Jesus did what He did, at least twice. If you would like to understand the context of that which you referred; I would be more than happy to explain it to you. (it is recorded twice in Scripture that Jesus "cleared out His Father's house")
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Anyway - keep up the writing and do not be discouraged and be reconciled to the LORD...many blessing and continued success!!
Crocodile, thanks once again for the kind words and blessings. May you and your family be blessed, as well!
Good thing you are around to set us all straight on what God thinks.
We don't have to be set "straight on what God thinks," he SAYS it. As does his Son and His follewers.
He says that he rescinds all the Jewish rules and laws, and that thanks to Christ we are ALL saved.
The law is dead to us thank to the body of Christ.
NOT, "obey tyranny that cloaks itself in Holiness," which is EXACTLY where Jesus was with the Jewish religion and their Roman rulers.
Or not. God is love, I believe the parts that he tells us to, and give the part written for Caesar, (or King Henry, or Obama), to them.
If Jesus says it, why didn't he write his own book? Why leave it to others?
Provide a verse and then another for Scripture will verify itself; I doubt that you can..but I'll be glad to review what you come up with in light of what God meant by what He has said.
George; you can disagree all you want, but it is not I that you disagree with it is God, for you cannot think things ALL THE WAY through to derive at even the existence of God or recognition that you are indeed a slave to either Christ or Satan. You are not even able to, but it is the reason that God commands ALL, not SOME, men to repent of their sin and there are many and believe the gospel, the GOOD NEWS. The man whose Hope is in the LORD will not be disappointed, but all who hope in that which is of man are always disappointed.
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Roams 13:1
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For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. - Ephesians 6:12
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For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
Good article GW. Funny how the usual ZH trolls are slow to comment on this particular issue, you are obviously touching a raw nerve !
A proper ass whippin will do that.
When all of the above have failed, a good troll will simply go full retard:
It's For The Churins.
The 25 Rules of Disinformation: http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-25-rules-of-disinformation/
For your reading pleasure...
As an anti-communist/anti-oligarchy troll, I use many of these myself. There's nothing quite so satisfying as unhinging a communist dupe and putting them into apoplectic fits by using their Saul Alinsky tactics on the Marxist Party Faithful.
Good talented trolls dont come cheap. FB trolls are mostly bots. The ones you find on koolaid joints are bush league. The free speach joints trolls cant be cheap?
We been getting our buts kicked in the propaganda game all our lives. Treat everyone like they might be a troll. Me GW CD KD TD every last mfr. Then we gonna see just how powerful we truly are. If this works the costs of running trolling ops will spin right out of sight.
It dont take very long to ask a good question a day. Ask me a good question I can take it.
Easier to "ignore the ridiculous"; like the war on terror..a war with no face, which means any face will do...likewise the "war on trolls" would be subjective and who decides? You either engage a person or you choose not to; the key is to maintain integrity before God imo.
Easier sure. But is it the best way to handle things?
MORE PAY for TROLLS!
TROLLS are ALMOST PEOPLE!
TROLLS SAY TIRED OF LIVING UNDER BRIDGES AND IN BASEMENT,
DEMAND WAGES ENABLING THEM TO LIVE IN LLOYD OR JAMIE'S PENTHOUSE!
TROLLS say BAD things, but have GOOD tongues.
How many bridges did YOU cross today? Be SAFE. Hire YOUR OWN troll!
And if you look at my time in service today, it was the same as yesterday.
19 weeks and 3 days still.
What gives Tyler's?
Congratulation ShitGum! You have racked up 116 troll down votes on just this one GW post. Ha. Ha. Ha.
And why should I are about down votes? I care about facts and truth and the free discussion there of. GW is not it and he knows why.
In Reply to Shitgum: To imply that you are somehow legitimate, with the garbage you put out, is laughable. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Wow! 150 down votes, what a loser! Ha. Ha. Ha.
Only a brainwashed Teabagger would have enough audacity to state that they are for “facts and truth and the free discussion there of.” When in fact, your behavior is the opposite with unfounded bullshit. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Yes, even a moron has the right to freedom of speech and like most Teabaggers and paid trolls; you use your freedom of speech to disrupt civil discourse.
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." - Abraham Lincoln
Talking to yourself again?
They are a vexation and you don't need all those points to identify. Easy to spot, they are the douche bags.
For those that haven't read my questions to GW before I'll give one that never gets answered.
Hey used a link that was his proof that the govt knew about 9/11 before hand. The link I went to was actually an article that was clarifying if there was an order to shoot down flight 93 because some thought it was heading towards the White House or Capitol building.
It was quoting Cheney if I remember right that there had been no order to shoot it down.
GW used that as his proof that 9/11 was an inside job and therefore the govt new ahead of time. That's what I mean about propaganda bs that has no basis in reality to say such a thing.
He, like many others here, says that fire doesn't melt steel. Well it does but at much higher temps. However the plane is made of aluminum which melts rather easily. I got attacked for asking those question a while back. Those are simple to answer with an reply that doesn't end up with an insult or being called a troll. He wouldn't answer but he answered others who said "great job GW as always."
And lastly, it's seems my first comments about GW on anything get about a 18-23 down votes on average. That's the same amount I get when I talk shit about Pooty Poot. Coincidence?
You remind me of the keen eyes who zeros in on the pimple on Natalie Portman
This is great shit to read while taking a shit.
"But the moment eloquence or the language of debate enters, true reasoning becomes impossible. For the purpose of the debater is not to find the truth but to win the argument, and to this end he will often stray as far as possible from the real issues"
"Eloquence and debate are designed, not to decide issues, but to sway people, for this reason they lean heavily on appeals to emotion and prejudice, and make use of neat, clever, and sometimes humorous turns of phrase rather than profound analysis of ideas"
"Of all this Confucious was contemptuous" Confucious by H. G. Creel Chapter "The teacher"
Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:
beheer@kvk.nl
De persoon/het mailadres, is niet meer bereikbaar. De Kamers van Koophandel en Stichting Met Elkaar zijn als 1 organisatie verder gegaan: www.kvk.nl/contact. Deponering jaarstukken:Per 1 januari kunnen intermediairs jaarstukken categorie klein alleen deponeren via SBR.Ondernemers die zelf jaarstukken opstellen en jaarstukken in categorie middelgroot/groot kunt u per mail deponeren: bijzondere.deponeringen@kvk.nl,Zie: www.kvk.nl/deponerengegevens.
Het gerucht dat 'Michael van Praag in de Egyptische hoofdstad Caïro zijn aandelen ABN-AMRO gaat ruilen voor stemmen' is natuurlijk niet te bewijzen. Tijdens de beursgang van ABN-AMRO kan natuurlijk iedereen (tenminste als ze wat geld op de rekening hebben staan) een aandeel bemachtigen. De reden dat veel Afrikaanse landen zich al openlijk achter de huidige FIFA-preses Sepp Blatter hebben geschaard. http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/van-praag-op-jacht-naar-stemmen-in-cairo~... VVD-fractievoorzitter Halbe Zijlstra weet dat de @*IVD betrokken is bij de gecontroleerde paradigmaCHANGE naar het systeem 'Leven en Laten Leven', ofwel de 3e SpinozaGolf. http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/30/ECONOMIE/article/detail/3945067/2015/0... Natuurlijk zijn alle fractie-leiders (in Nederland) hierover geïnformeerd en dus mocht hij in alle vrijheid bij @BuitenhofTV vertellen dat het 'de politiek past om terughoudendheid te zijn met verontwaardiging over de voorgenomen loonsverhoging voor de top van ABN AMRO'. http://www.neurope.eu/article/science-shaking#comment-1891406401 Zijlstra wees erop dat zelfs VVD-Kamerlid Mark Verheijen had ingestemd met de beloning van de bankbestuurders, omdat ze nog niet met voorkennis van de 3e SpinozaGolf mochten opereren. Na een beursgang is het natuurlijk weer 'ieder voor zich en de absolute waarheid voor ons allen' en is EuroGroep-voorzitter bevrijd van een hoofdpijn-dossier. Natuurlijk is 'rust rond de bank voor een goede beursgang' nooit goed, want de hype dat alleen de ABN-AMRO een licentie van Stichting Met Elkaar heeft om de 'wiskundige definitie van de absolute waarheid' uit te mogen rollen, moet natuur goud geld opbrengen. Zijlstra schat zelf dat 150 miljard euro een mooi bedrag is, maar dat moet KroesendeNeeelie nog afstemmen met haar contacten op Wal Street.
We have had an influx of plenty of pro and anti Kiev or Putin trolls here lately on ZH. Remember Freedom123? He is gone now. You can recognize them by the fact they've only been with ZH for a few weeks (but of course were followers of ZH for years before they decided to post. One even claiming to have been following ZH since 2005...) and by the fact that they only comment on the situation in Ukraine. Also you can recognize them by either their very bad or very slang English.
But in a way it is also very fun to watch their comments.
The thing is, there actually are people who have been reading ZH for a couple years and then decided to sign on and you are probably one of.them,.just like me. Then an arrogant fuck buffoon that doesnt like a newbies comment posts their membership duration to use as a means to.discredit the commentor.
I signed up a week after I discovered ZH. Then sat on their doorstep patiently and faithfully waiting for them to allow me in. And they did.
I think that newbies can make just as interesting and valuable comments just like older members do. But some people came here to troll. And yes, you can recognize them by the fact that they only recently signed up and by the fact that they comment exclusively on some topic, usually the conflict in Ukraine. These people are trolls, whether paid or not. They should go to BI or CNN or RT or something. But they can also stay and write what they want. As long as I can write they are trolls. I don't mind them when they also comment on other things but if they only comment on one thing then they are probably trolls.
Edit- some article in a newspaper said that Putin has an army of paid trolls that need to write comments on social media. They have a quota and use tactics as GW explains. Perhaps this is some propraganda article. Would not surprise me. Would not suprise me either if it was true. I think it is also no surprise if Kiev would do that. Or even Western countries. That is why I don't like people trolling on ZH. Go somewhere else.
It took me several months to solve the math problem. I attended public schools as a yute.
ZH really needs to bring back that math captcha...you cannot post a comment until you answer what is -21 divided by 340...man, I actually miss that. Being challenged by basic mathematics before posting a comment...keeps the crap from being posted and makes you think to yourself...is this really worth the hassle of posting?
Marginalization.
Oh God, it's the biweekly article on how to identify the trolls and bots who ruin our otherwise lemminglike experience of agreeing how fucking horrible everything is. These goddamn trolls keep trying to tell us it's really not that bad but we know better.... it's sucks bad baby, everything sucks really bad!
Well, if it isn't the guy who eats #2.
#5 ?
trolls deal in ad hominem and outright lies most of all.
Israel's hasbara army - the 'official' and the irregulars, and the useful idiot Xian Zio water carriers use "anti-Semitism" most of all, of course, but just as the intelligent, decent person has trouble accepting how the money system/fiat/fract reserve system works - so simple, so bizarre, so dishonest....
we have trouble accepting that people enter a discussion hoping to derail it, to smear people, and to spread absolute lies.
"Wipe Israel off the Map" - Ahmahdinejad never said it, nor has the Iranian government pursued a policy of destroying Israel. Has a minister or three said crazy shit? Sure - but in Israel the crazy shit is said, goes unreported in a heavily Jewish/pro-Israel press, and by the way is mainstream. What Iran has actually said is - given that Israel is 20% Arab, and rules over millions in land it continually colonizes, and given that the Jews forcibly expelled hundreds of thousands - indeed, the Zionist project presupposed ethnic cleansing based on racism and religious mythos - maybe "Israel" as a "{Euro} Jewish state" should not exist.
If you actually google what the former Iranian leader said, and dont use MEMRI, the Jewish hasbara organization, nothing he said was crazy. In fact, it was generally very reasonable and comported with Enlightenment universalist ethics.
What he didnt do is acknowledge Jewish claims about being Chosen or having a deed from God, or the argument that since some of their remote ancestors lived in Palestine 2000 years ago [along with many, many others from Assyrians to Phoenicians to Egyptians to Greeks - the Jews NEVER occupied Canaan alone - nor is there any evidence at all outside Jewish writings, centuries later, that the Hebrews controlled much more than a petty kingdom around a city founded by Jebusites - whom were not Jewish and whom the proto-Jews murdered and stole the land from. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/chosen-people.html. "Arab" Palestinians are the descendents of the pre-Islamic occupants, with an Arab ethnic and language overlay.
The English have long thought of themselves as "anglo-saxon" but they are in fact mostly Celtic and pre-Celtic. You don't have a society that can build stonehenge, skara brae, and newgrange - older than the pyramids - disappear completely, and language is not the same as ethnicity.
Zionism is built on Pharisaical Judaism - totem pole myths. Well, lies - but all religion is lies, but Jewish identity is the most fabricated of all - and have religious texts that are absolutely replete with the xenophobia, racism, superstition, sophism, materialism and hate that caused anti-semitism in the centuries before christ...
speaking of which, another problem with Zionism is the idea that Jews may live anywhere they please, but have the exclusive, genetic {belief in god is of no moment} and racial "right" to a very *vaguely* defined area of the world - a key chokepoint for ancient traderoots. But in the 3rd century BCE, there were likely more Jews in alexandria, Egypt than Jerusalem - meaning that for centuries before the semi-mythic 'expulsion' - Jews were happily living outside the promise land - and were never alone in it. It is a racist myth, and while Joshua's conquest almost certainly either never happened or was much more modest in scale, the celebration of murder and hate, and the worship of "the Jew" by Judaism - i.e. religious Jews and secular Jewish nationalists [belief here - not a genetic thing, though this point will be lost on many of you] has caused much, even most of the strife between this tribal xenophobia belief-set and the rest of the world.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/chosen-people.html
They dont really teach the history of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in schools, nor do they teach of the bloody massacres of Greeks and Romans by Jews and where it is taught, the apologetics of today enter the fray to preserve the mythos of the Jew as eternal victim.
their holy books, and the real history, say otherwise.
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http://www.alternativeinsight.com/The_New_Sicarii.html
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Wow! Just horseshit from a 10 week old troll and using the divide and conquer meme.
https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/israels-propagandists-shoot-...
you'll have to do better than that.
it helps to show some reading comprehension in general, and if you're going to cry 'horseshit' - it helps to be specific.
As for divide and conquer - yes, I'd divide Zionist trolls, whether sitting and paid in Tel Aviv, or some Evangelical whack job in Alabama - from the rest of us.
Why wouldn't you?
Just fuck everything and your cat too and buh BitcoiN!
https://btc-e.com
I like feeding them shit sammitches. Then let them dangle. It keeps me from getting a following of trolls.
True enough this article was pretty terrible.
But this cat's comment was even worse.
So:
Buy gold
Tyler needs to install the trusted commenter feature
Until then your comment is as good as mine.
Welcome:
Like I said. All you can do is post someone's time in service as your comeback if that what you want to call it.
And for the idiot above who questions my "real" time in service should know that when there was a real fight club you got pummeled if you commented and didn't know what you were talking about.
It was quite intimidating. Not to mention I was inthralled with all the discussions along with the information I was reading.
Now we are lucky to get consistent analysis without the shills pumping bs of the purpose of pumping bs.
The financial guys who contribute have something they are selling you; a product or service. William Banzai at least has art work with financial and political themes to them which coincide what this place used to be.
GW has nothing to sell but an agenda with mostly lies. Let him comment like everyone else does. But to give him or HH a spotlight for the purpose of outright propaganda to push and agenda not related to finance has alarm bells ringing.
You should be questioning the Tyler's as well as GW for putting this kind of crap up.
Buy gold
Tyler needs to install the trusted commenter feature
Trolls. Bring 'em on!
Best tactic is ignore completely. Especially when the natural of their troll gives obvious evidence that you have really hit home and made a valid attack on one of their sacred cow issues. These quickly call you a faggot or something and make a personal evaluation of your mental illnesses. Ignore them, I know it pisses them off.
A smart troll will put words in your mouth, claim that your post means you said this or that, which you clearly did not. They put words in your mouth then demand you defend them. Again, ignore them. They claim you said something you didn't in order to side track the conversation away from the valid attack you just made.
I never understood how calling someone a Fag or Queer helps win a debate.
Show me when I've ever used a term like faggot and such to describe GW when asking for clarification. I don't . I call him a gutless coward because he refuses to respond like an adult let alone like an honest person.
He has the mentality of Obama. Not that right there is an insult using a pejorative term.
And for those that have seen my posts, my avatar has been stuck on 19 weeks and 3 days for a while now. Just ask Georgie Porgie. Oh that's right he won't answer.