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SkyNet Is Almost Sentient: HFTs To Start Trading Bitcoin

Tyler Durden's picture




 

As noted earlier, with equities now a barren wasteland of volume (and liquidity), the last remaining HFT master (of whale order frontrunning) has been forced to go to those asset classes where organic flow is still abundant such as FX, courtesy of central banks engaged in global currency wars. However, HFTs realize it is only a matter of time before FX order flow also dries up as central banks take their trade away from public venues (and dark pools) and as such are always looking for new, untapped markets. One place where they are about to land according to the WSJ, with hilarious consequences sure to follow, will be the one place that HFTs should have felt at home from the very beginning: bitcoin.

As WSJ reports, some of the U.S.’s biggest proprietary HFT traders say they see potential for big profits in trading bitcoin. Translation: unprecedented volatility, which essentially crushed all interest in Bitcoin after its peak in late 2013, is about to come back with a vengeances as such conventional HFT market rigging techniques as frontrunning, momentum ignition, quote stuffing, spoofing, subpennying and everything else in the vacuum tube arsenal is about to be unleashed on the world's geekiest traders. Call it algos trading algos.

Amusingly, the WSJ says that "their involvement could help reduce volatility in the market for bitcoin, which has struggled to gain legitimacy in part because of concerns about wild swings in its price." Uhm, no: the arrival of HFT in any asset class merely assures that volatility surges to the moon, especially when it is an asset that trades without explicit central bank backing such as stocks, or FX.

Among the companies at the forefront of this move is DRW Holdings LLC, a high-frequency trading firm in Chicago founded by former options-pit trader Donald Wilson in 1992. DRW is a founding investor in a new bitcoin financial-services firm called Digital Asset Holdings that launched last month. Cumberland Mining & Materials LLC, a DRW subsidiary, has “begun to experiment with cryptocurrency trading,” DRW said.

 

Other firms with large proprietary trading groups also appear to have an appetite for greater exposure to bitcoin.

Hilariously, none other than the Fed's own right hand trading firm, Citadel, is also entering the space:

Citadel Securities LLC in Chicago and KCG Holdings Inc. in Jersey City, N.J., were among a small group of firms that have offered bids to buy shares of the Bitcoin Investment Trust since it listed last month on the OTC Markets, a platform typically used for trading shares of smaller companies that aren’t as heavily regulated as stocks listed on exchanges.

 

KCG spokeswoman Sophie Sohn said that in addition to the engagement with the trust, her firm is “actively exploring various opportunities related to” bitcoin. Citadel said it was not involved in Bitcoin apart from the bids offered for the trust, a spokesman said.

And here comes the strawman which has been beaten to death, yet which the HFT lobby still uses on a daily basis under the assumption it deals only and exclusively with idiots.

One persistent problem for the bitcoin market is it can be hard to trade because there aren’t enough buyers and sellers at exchanges. Executives at those exchanges have sought to persuade high-frequency trading firms to begin making markets in bitcoin, trading-firm executives said.

 

In market making, a trading firm offers both bids and offers for an asset so that investors always have a willing party with which to trade. The trading firm tries to capture the spread between the bids and offers, buying at a slightly cheaper price and selling at a slightly higher price.

 

Ari Rubenstein, co-founder of Global Trading Systems Inc. in New York, said his team is looking at how to trade bitcoin but is waiting for regulators to give a signal that they approve of it.

 

“No one has an idea if bitcoin is going to take off and be unbelievable, but everyone agrees it has that potential,” he said. “But we are still weighing the risks of getting involved.”

With traditional markets already so broken, today's epic opening stock ramp - the biggest of 2015, on the worst jobs number since 2013 - being the best example, one just can't wait for the untapped hilarious opportunities that will unveil themselves when robots and computer algos start frontrunning, pardon, providing liquidity in a digital currency. Truly a match made in Skynet heaven.

Finally, since HFTs have already traded BTC in the past, and haven't been shy about it, here is an example of what bitcoin afficionados everywhere can expect.

 

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Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:38 | 5963464 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Yep, hogwash. The order books is posted in real time on most exchanges with hundreds of people lined up at different price levels at all times.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:39 | 5963467 Took Red Pill
Took Red Pill's picture

Where's Fonestar?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:41 | 5963469 actionjacksonbrownie
actionjacksonbrownie's picture

Making popcorn...

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:43 | 5963476 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

PAGING MR. FONESTAR...WILL MR. FONESTAR PLEASE PICK UP THE WHITE COURTESY PHONE...PAGING MR. FONESTAR

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:16 | 5963579 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

Yes!  In the case of Bitcoin, any publicity is good publicity!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:51 | 5963683 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Is Bitcoin regulated?

If not, what stops the HFT from doing anything they want?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:56 | 5963703 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

I hope there is a giant /sarc tag intended.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:21 | 5963799 CH1
CH1's picture

Has no one realized that the blockchain is neither instant nor controlled by law?

HFTs will need miner compliance, which will not be enforced with guns. That may change a few things.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:02 | 5964398 commander gruze?
commander gruze?'s picture

Most Bitcoin exchanges conduct trading off-blockchain. Taking bitcoin trading out of the Bitcoin decentralized network security model is a disaster waiting to happen. Let's hope centralized exchanges will be wiped out from the face of this planet soon, as there are only two kinds of centralized systems: those which got hacked, and those which will get hacked.

However, I cannot agree Bitcoin is not controlled by law. It is controlled by rigid law of mathemathics.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:00 | 5963723 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

Fine, let them do what they want.  Point is that the dollar-denominated HFTs do not survive the collapse and Bitcoin does.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:21 | 5963792 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

BitCoin survives? Right...

The President of United States, Barack Obama has signed an executive order that uses economic restrictions to “control” anyone that is trying to attack any American interests.

But what this exactly means? This means that if the US authorities identify an entity (person or group) that is threatening the US infrastructure and which is responsible for a security breach, then all its assets can be frozen, including bank accounts and virtual currencies.

The EO, signed last week (BLOCKING THE PROPERTY OF CERTAIN PERSONS ENGAGING IN SIGNIFICANT MALICIOUS CYBER-ENABLED ACTIVITIES), is available here:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/04/01/executive-order-b...

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:22 | 5963804 CH1
CH1's picture

Worked real well against marijuana, huh?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:25 | 5963817 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

NOBODY GIVES TWO FUCKS WHAT THE US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES!!

Does a coffee shop in Brussels care?  Does a shoe store in Taipei care?  Does an auto shop in Venice care?

Please tell me who fucking cares what your shit government does and what happens to your shit currency or your shit laws?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:36 | 5963851 GoldSilverBitcoinBug
GoldSilverBitcoinBug's picture

And the day after that, Snowden defense fund got dozens of BTC in all defiance of the most powerful Gov on Earth...

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 19:17 | 5965084 Zorrohodge
Zorrohodge's picture

You might find it impossible to explain in 21,000,000 words or less how you would freeze a digital currency.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:45 | 5963880 Model T
Model T's picture

Another computer freak who believes in Tinkerbelle.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 17:57 | 5964817 thecrud
thecrud's picture

I dont see the problem it is their money not mine.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:00 | 5963721 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Just hope you don't lose your already hacked by the NSA electronic device that stores your bitcoins.

Just hope the power never goes out.

Just hope.

No change, both literally and figuratively.

 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:23 | 5963810 CH1
CH1's picture

Just hope you don't lose your already hacked by the NSA electronic device that stores your bitcoins.

And on that day, you will enjoy the pain of others.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:40 | 5963861 Model T
Model T's picture

In the case of Bitcoin, publicity is all they got !!. I think it's a hilarious article; the world really is crazy.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:33 | 5963626 Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

Methinks that fonestar has a new name and avatar...

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:37 | 5963642 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

Wethinks you are right.  Face it, the majority of ZH readers are just too dense to get Bitcoin.  Makes we think that they probably do not understand the other articles posted here either.  The most laughable part though is that they seem to think the "dollar" is a non-digital currency!  ROTFL!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:45 | 5963664 shouldvekilledthem
shouldvekilledthem's picture

Sad but true. The comment section of zh perfectly shows why our society is doomed to fail.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:47 | 5963669 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

If this is the enlightened opposition we are royally phooked....

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:59 | 5963717 Took Red Pill
Took Red Pill's picture

if you want to get really sad read the comments on MSM sites like Huff Post

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:04 | 5963740 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

The thing is, if you believe only things you can touch "are real" you are living somewhere back in the 13th century before people started to look at things under microscopes.  People do not understand the difference between real and corporeal.  Heck, didn't Plato even postulate on the building blocks of matter?  ZH readers have a lot of catching up to do....

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:22 | 5963802 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Is it true that Bitcoin has a cap of 21 million and cannot go beyond that limit?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:24 | 5963814 CH1
CH1's picture

Yes.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 14:01 | 5963963 funthea
funthea's picture

Of course, Bitcoin vs.# 2,837,482 also has a cap of 21 million too. But don't worry, the world will gladly only use bitcoin 1.0 because it was first and... and... well first adapters believe they will be bloody rich. So it has to go down that way.

 

If bitcoin was trading at $2,000 US right now, would you buy it? I ask because it always comes down to faith. Not just yours, but everyone elses. Others must ask themselves if they should buy bitcoin 1.0 at $2,000 US. Or instead buy another alt coin with the exact save security and hash algo for a fraction of the cost. At some point price becomes an insurmountable obstacle that most will not stomach.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 17:13 | 5964637 nailgunnin4you
nailgunnin4you's picture

If bitcoin was trading at $2,000 US right now, would you buy it? I ask because it always comes down to faith.

 

Just thought I would requote this tard so people against bitcoin can further wallow in the idiocy of their peers. 

 

Just for fun(thea) and others not familiar with the basics of currency - if I wish to buy $2k worth of bitcoin, it will cost me $2k, whether bitcoin is worth $10USD or $10000USD.

 

Reading all the cryptocurrency 'criticism' on zerohedge tends to make me more bullish on cryptos. That some butthurt haters here tell you it's a bad idea because your cryptos may be wiped out in some EMP or similar doomsday scenario, makes me forget about all the legitimate criticism one could employ in their condemnation of cryptos.

 

Are these crypto-butthurts bearish in part thanks to a lack of innovation despite massive VC investment in the last few years? No. Are they bearish because they believe, as I do, that cryptos will have a hard time achieving mass-adoption in an economically illiterate society? Nope.

 

To understand the basic weaknesses of cryptos like bitcoin, you must first learn its fundemental strengths, something a change-fearing hater won't do. For this reason, crypto hating butthurts are forced to use nonsensical boogeymen such as EMPs/solar flares/some such shit in vain attempts to dissuade the more sensible among us. Lucky for myself the EMP boogeyman did not dissuade me from buying BTC in 2011 $$$$$$$$$$$$$!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 18:14 | 5964860 funthea
funthea's picture

Why don't you just say you can't answer the question.

Tue, 04/07/2015 - 19:06 | 5968483 nailgunnin4you
nailgunnin4you's picture

Heh, okay then my answer is yes. If I needed to buy something worth $200 in btc I would obviously buy btc at $2000 (0.1 of a btc to be exact;), you are aware a currency fulfils a purpose other than an investment opportunity yes? I didn't think so

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:52 | 5963688 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

RU-GAY2  I thought everyone figured that out by now.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:44 | 5963482 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

That's all he can afford to eat now.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:20 | 5963590 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

It is technically impossible for Bitcoin to go below $220 now so you should buy now!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:36 | 5963641 DutchR
DutchR's picture

Hahaha,  "DRW is a founding investor in a new bitcoin financial-services firm called Digital Asset Holdings"

"Digital Asset Holdings"  Unreal

 

Feed the graph of MtGox in cubase, i'll bet it wil make a fine beat..

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:06 | 5963747 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

Digital holdings, yes... kind of like how cloud backup and data storage has become a multi-billion dollar industry?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:39 | 5963857 DutchR
DutchR's picture

Cloud backup, unreal       vaporware

 

If it's not in you digits it's well, eh.... not there

 

I'm back to cuneiform clay

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:16 | 5963574 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

HO LEE PHOOKING BITCOIN!!!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:24 | 5963601 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

We love the Bitcoin threads.  Trying to argue the merits of the world's most powerful currency with people who think software "is not real".  FYI, the gold standard was not a physical, tangible item either.

Phooking retards.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:43 | 5963661 A_latvian
A_latvian's picture

Haters gonna hate.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:30 | 5964512 Condition 1SQ
Condition 1SQ's picture

Yeah, trolling is really doing your cause a lot of good ..

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:42 | 5963866 Model T
Model T's picture

"No one knows if Bitcoin is going to take off and be unbelievable"---I love the way no one can speak English anymore, or think straight. It's already unbelievable you idiot; that's the whole problem; it is un-believable. Duuh.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 14:10 | 5963998 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Oh look, ZH has a story gloating about HFT potential involvement in yet-another-market. I guess when you're a old feisty financial type, puttering around the house since you've gotten replaced by a computer in a server rack, you tend to see these anti-technology stories (always centered on how Bitcoin is "doomed", lol)

This is around the 20th "death" of bitcoin, and knowing ZH, given that every call they've had on the market has resulted in the polar opposite of happening, I'm sure that the next mega-rally in Bitcoin will be yet-another badge of shame for a site that has lost its edge a long time ago.

But, cavemen will still be cavemen, OOK-OOKing to each other how smart and 'telligent they are they never got into "the Bitcoin".

Knob-Gobblers.

 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:29 | 5964510 Condition 1SQ
Condition 1SQ's picture

Actually, I suspect most of the people posting on this site are gainfully employed.  In fact, if you want to see real anti-Bitcoin vitriol, check out Slashdot.  That's just a bunch of old luddite unemployed curmudgeons, right?  Also, you seem very emotionally invested in Bitcoin, probably because you're heavily invested in it.  People need to have a healthy skepticism of a technology where the others who advertise the merits of that technology are probably heavily invested in it.  Much of the anti-Bitcoin sentiment on these sites and others has to do with the smug, holier-than-thou attitude exuded by its proponents.  It generally starts out something like "You all are idiots who can't fathom the importance of this technology, and whatever criticisms you have of it are borne of ignorance".  Not exactly a great way to start spreading any gospel.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:19 | 5964471 Condition 1SQ
Condition 1SQ's picture

Right, I'm not exactly sure how HFT would work without a centralized exchange and some third party oversight.  They will likely just set up shop literally next to Bitstamp, Huobi, etc. and work out deals with the exchange owners.  This could be a very bad thing for Bitcoin, because I will bet that the exchanges will rig their operations to dovetail in with HFTs, allowing for front running, stop hunting, etc. and all it takes it kickbacks to the exchange owners.  I don't believe for a second they wouldn't sell out.  I can hear their schpeel now: "If you don't play ball, we'll just go talk to <next largest exchange>, and you'll be marginalized."

Tue, 04/07/2015 - 01:36 | 5965835 blowing winter
blowing winter's picture

Start working at home with Google ! Its by-far the best mixed bag of goods I've had. Last Thursday I got a trademark new Bmw since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was coming with house at least $77 per hour. I work through this connection, go.to tech marker for work detail.... www.globe-report.com

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:39 | 5963465 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

And there it is.  Knew this day was coming when a smart young employee of mine went back to school and on to a large wall street firm to "help them secure their position in digital currencies" back in 2001.

 

Remember, when fraud is the status quo, possession is the law.

Same as it ever was.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:22 | 5963595 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

Oh right, and now he's doing what today?  Flipping burgers?  Seeing as how JPM's patent applications got rejected how many times??

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:41 | 5963470 KnuckleDragger-X
KnuckleDragger-X's picture

Oh goody, bitcoin was already a confused mess and this'll likely shove it over a cliff. It'll be interesting to see how they do it and what the IRS will do.....

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:47 | 5963671 shouldvekilledthem
shouldvekilledthem's picture

The mess is only in your head.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:27 | 5963831 CH1
CH1's picture

bitcoin was already a confused mess

LOL - BTC is simple; but the bullshit that swirls around it confuses the ignorant...

Which is the purpose of bullshit, after all.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:33 | 5964534 Tunga
Tunga's picture

Income is defined in Flint v. Stone Tracy as "corporate profit".

So unless Bitcoin incorporates within the United States ( defined at 7701 9. & 10. Of the IRC to mean THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA) then it falls outside the definition of income and is therefore not taxable.

Tue, 04/07/2015 - 01:02 | 5965783 JustUsChickensHere
JustUsChickensHere's picture

There has been algo trading of Bitcoin for a couple of years... if it gets more intense... so what !  

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:43 | 5963478 tmosley
tmosley's picture

HFTs would have to get special concessions from the bitcoin exchanges for that to happen.  And I somehow don't think that is going to happen, as it would make everyone abandon the corrupt exchanges for non-corrupt ones, which would then be the ones to set the price. 

You know, like what would happen with all these other markets if government interference didn't make it almost impossible to open new ones.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:04 | 5963539 JRev
JRev's picture

It absolutely will happen. CoinBase is their Trojan Horse. Just wait and see.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:22 | 5963593 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Coinbase isn't an exchange, friend.  It's a store.  They reference an exchange price for their transactions.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:49 | 5963676 shouldvekilledthem
shouldvekilledthem's picture

Coinbase created an exchange with some VC investment (about USD100M)

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:08 | 5963550 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Every computer can hook up on the API of the bitcoin exchanges. That's nothing new.

https://www.bitstamp.net/api/

https://docs.exchange.coinbase.com/#api

 

Colocation

Coinbase Exchange primary data sources and servers run in the Amazon US East data center. To minimize latency for API access, we recommend making requests from servers located near the US East data center.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:46 | 5963665 A_latvian
A_latvian's picture

Holy crap?!  You mean I can write my own competing trating bot?  Almost like it's a free market or something?  Wait until the HFT-haters hear about THIS!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:03 | 5963735 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

We are so glad you are looking to join the parasite legions in siphoning off virtual wealth without providing one iota of value.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:28 | 5963834 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Bitcoin is a free market, bitchez.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 14:55 | 5964168 overqualified
overqualified's picture

you don't have to write anything. There is already a free bot-market:

http://tinyurl.com/q97opxf

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:44 | 5963484 i_call_you_my_base
i_call_you_my_base's picture

You know you've made it when wall street comes in to throw its feces all over your stuff.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:49 | 5963494 CPL
CPL's picture

Good, then we'll have a transaction log to follow where the money is going to help with renovations.  Need to pick up some nails for the nail gun first.  It's the nice thing about a fully transpearently public transaction tied to a visible IP address.

You know where to deliver the renovation 'service' to.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:53 | 5963500 CPL
CPL's picture

How to catch pigs
Author: Anonymous

You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are  used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence.

They get used to that and start to eat, again you continue until you  have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The  pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to  eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and  around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten  how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

Then it's time for bacon sandwiches.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:55 | 5963517 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

I know a few people who grew up in the USSR and moved to the US in the 90s. They all say the same thing.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:10 | 5963556 CPL
CPL's picture

All you need to do is renovate one in the most inventive method possible to get thousands to get back in line.  If they get back out of line, then you use a hammer to pound the head of the nail flat and back into place so it stops moving.  If the nail is crooked.  You throw the crooked nail away and get one that works on your project with the rest of the materiasl.

Remember, it's just a nail.  Practically worthless no matter what it's made out of or how well designed and there a bunch more where that one came from.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:08 | 5964417 crazytechnician
crazytechnician's picture

How to catch pigs:

Tell them only gold and silver are money , let them buy as much as they can until they run out of cash.

Once they are broke ass fools , bitcoin comes along.

As they wallow in their ignorance , moaning and complaining because not only can they not hold it in their hands , but they cannot afford to take any more risk on bitcoin.

New Paradigm , Bitchezzz ......

Bhaaaaaa

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:15 | 5963570 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I have been doing business in Russia for 20+ years.  Yep, been saying the same thing.  The outcome in 'merica will be very similar, especially once states with plenty of real resources and a large percentage of our military volunteers tell D.C. to fuck right off. 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:16 | 5963578 Took Red Pill
Took Red Pill's picture

kind of like boiling frogs

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:09 | 5963756 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

NOTHING IS LIKE BACON!!!

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:50 | 5963498 lawyer4anarchists
lawyer4anarchists's picture

The next stage of fake money trading in 0's and 1's.  First it was backed by nothing, now it isn't even fake paper.  The fake paper req'd unconstitutional "legal tender" laws violating the 5th amendment. http://www.thetruthaboutthelaw.com/they-make-you-use-money-that-is-backe...

Will this new period be "voluntary" like the income tax is voluntary?  

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:51 | 5963501 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

They will not find the first Bitcoin exchange that doesn't steal everything.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 11:52 | 5963505 Bear
Bear's picture

Bitcoin manipulation?

3.6 billion total market size ... give me a break

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:03 | 5963535 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

This thread should get good.  Bitcoin is not money, it is only a vehicle of exchange.  It is a currency; only gold is money.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:11 | 5963552 JRev
JRev's picture

ANY commodity that is (relatively) non-perishable, fungible, liqud, sufficently scarce, divisible, and fixed in its weights and measures qualifies as money. Gold is great money, but to call it the only money? The Rockefeller Foundation spent a lotta dough getting Mises established in America to change the original vision of Menger's Austrian School to include that "Gold Standard" bullshit. 

http://redefininggod.com/2015/02/globalist-agenda-watch-2015-update-15-l...

How much gold do "We the People" own? How much gold do "The Banksters" own? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this shit out. 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:38 | 5963647 rejected
rejected's picture

You conveniently forgot ... "a long term store of value"

Money should also be somewhat non volatile. The only reason gold is a bit volatile is because the system of banks and government won't allow a free market to find its true price.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 23:03 | 5965604 JRev
JRev's picture

Scarcity + utility = value, so in a roundabout way I suppose I covered it, but I appreciate the clarification nonethelss. Its exclusion was hardly intentional.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:43 | 5963658 DirtyHowi
DirtyHowi's picture

I've gone with the brass and lead standard myself (well that and all the silver i lost in my boating accident).  .22 LR anyone?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 15:45 | 5964329 putaipan
putaipan's picture

+ a bunch for the linky.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:09 | 5963555 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Great, it means bitcoin can only go up from now. 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:11 | 5963563 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Cool beans .\, Baby.

lets see where real computational power goes.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:17 | 5963582 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

BTC has been in a 16 month downtrend since Nov. 2013. Down around 75% I believe. If the HFT crew get their hooks into BTC you can expect huge volitility and probably another spectacular pump and dump.

Of course, you'll never hear that from anyone in the Fonestar Brigade.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:52 | 5963687 shouldvekilledthem
shouldvekilledthem's picture

Gold is in a bearmarket for 2+ years. Your point?

 

 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:57 | 5963712 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

try and tell me bitcoin has intrinsic value.........

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:58 | 5963715 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.  All value is situational.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:00 | 5964393 funthea
funthea's picture

Now, RU-GAY2, that is the first sagely thing I have seen you write.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:53 | 5964618 bcking
bcking's picture

It has more intrinsic value than any paper currency. Each bitcoin is unique, as opposed to the U.S. Dollar or any other "print at will" currency. What gives the U.S. Dollar instrinsic value? Backed by gold? No. Backed by credit? No. An instrument of debt? Yes.

Bitcoin has to be mined - similar to gold, so therefore it's value is derived from its rarity. Is the U.S. Dollar rare? No. They print billions each month - actually it's just a few keystrokes. No effort = no intrinsic value.

Why is a painting by a dead artist valuable? IT IS LIMITED IN NUMBER. You anti-bitcoin guys will be crying tears when you're relegated to washing my car and taking out the trash from my house while I screw my very young girlfriends and travel. 

Short-sighted losers abound. Enjoy your ride to poverty dickheads.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 15:57 | 5964375 funthea
funthea's picture

Yes, gold has been in a bear market for 2+ years... because it has been heavily manipulated to drive the price down. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has been in a bear market for 2+ years all on its own merit. But don't worry, that's about to change. When the manipulators have their way with it, they will drive it up and just when you pull all your equity out of your house to buy more, they will crush it into ablivion, discrediting any virture crypto ever had.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:15 | 5964452 crazytechnician
crazytechnician's picture

Don't you Flat Earthers really have anything better to come out with regarding bitcoin  ?

But I must say that is slightly more original than the Ponzi and Tulips story you idiots were banging out 3 or 4 years ago.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:18 | 5963588 adr
adr's picture

People still believe some mythical person invented Bitcoin. It was and always will be a scam created by the established market players to create a new venue for fleecing people.

It is nothing more than an ETF. Another creation designed to represent nothing yet make real cash for the scammers involved.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:29 | 5963613 q99x2
q99x2's picture

You should learn what the blockchain means. The fact that bitcoin is currency only guarantees that the power of the blockchain will survive long enough to transform the world in which you live. 

 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:43 | 5963662 DutchR
DutchR's picture

blockchain ball and chain

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:30 | 5963619 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Knew bitcoin was producing unusual trading patterns over this last weekend. Seemed to be some frontrunning going on before the frontrunning.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:32 | 5963622 Blopper
Blopper's picture

From now on BTC may go to as high as $1,000,000 per BTC to as low as $0.01 per BTC.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:46 | 5963666 RU-GAY2
RU-GAY2's picture

Yes this is true, but at the end of the day we do not care about "dollar" or how many dollars things cost.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:33 | 5963625 PresidentCamacho
PresidentCamacho's picture

Perfect, I wanted Bitcoin to lose legitimacy anyway.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:46 | 5963884 GoldSilverBitcoinBug
GoldSilverBitcoinBug's picture

HFT are on Gold also, so Gold lose legitimacy ?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:36 | 5963638 p00k1e
p00k1e's picture

Anyone can ‘anonymously’ create an online wallet service using ‘double secret propriety’ algorithms. 

Once the creator has their fill of Bitcoin, they forget to re-up their hosting fees and keep the loot.

Even Warren Buffet. 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:48 | 5963899 Consumer Farm
Consumer Farm's picture

why would anyone use the mentioned wallets?

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:37 | 5963644 jonytk
jonytk's picture

You can chek one OTC market here

http://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/GBTC/quote

and the real bitcoin markets here.

https://bitcoinwisdom.com/

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:43 | 5963660 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Ok the article has compelled word out of Q99X2 central command. Just in: In the past Bitcoin's price volatility corresponded to any thinly traded stock that has low float. In the future, as volume increases, the price will rise and volatility will decrease. HFTs create a continuous price increase over time.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:03 | 5963734 GoldSilverBitcoinBug
GoldSilverBitcoinBug's picture

Thanks to the fixed supply of BTC !

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:53 | 5963692 HopefulCynical
HopefulCynical's picture

The people who created bitcoin didn't make it public until they'd already created millions of bitcoins for themseves. Can you say "money for nothing (and yer chicks for free)?" It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple. So of course the Ponzi Bankster Brigades are going to hop on board.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:51 | 5963911 Consumer Farm
Consumer Farm's picture

Ponzi scheme

"A fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned"

Bitcoin does not pay returns.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 14:40 | 5964107 HopefulCynical
HopefulCynical's picture

It does to the people in on the ground floor. They rack up on OPM.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 16:48 | 5964593 bcking
bcking's picture

You anti-bitcoin guys are funny. You don't even know how it works, yet you piss all over it. When you're packing my groceries while I feel up my 20 year-old girlfriend, be sure to not put the eggs on the bottom this time. You retards.

For all others, welcome to the future.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 18:19 | 5964879 statelessman
statelessman's picture

So someone or group that invents a new technology should not be able to profit from it? and they did make it public, most people they communicated with just thought it was a stupid idea that would go nowhere becuase they didn't understand it.

Also if you check the blockchain you'll notice those coins have almost never moved and most sit where they were when mined back in 2009, so either they belive Bitcoin has a long way to go, never needed more fiat, are dead or have destroyed the private keys.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 19:13 | 5965065 Zorrohodge
Zorrohodge's picture

Actually they put a time stamp just so people could call you out on your bullshit. http://elizabethtploshay.com/the-genesis-block-time-stamp/

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 12:58 | 5963714 cnmcdee
cnmcdee's picture

all altcoins are total fraud. The fact wall street is piling on is the fraud is big enough for then to skim some too.  

Pre-mined coins, coop miners where the website owner 'manually delivers' digital coins, ASIC factories pumping out millions and people phantoming the blockchain, not to mention Tor banks that disappear with $4 million in bitcoin.

If you want to do something safer and more honest goto the casino.. Otherwise avoid like the plaque unless you plan on running your own scam..

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:49 | 5963725 GoldSilverBitcoinBug
GoldSilverBitcoinBug's picture

What happen if an exchange doesn't allow HFT on their server ?

Bitcoin is decentralized meaning that they can forbid HFT on their server, if needed free markets will propose one of these exchange.

 

Edit: A lot people hate BTC here but BTC is better than nothing since it's not for tomorrow (and probably never) that you will see a government fixed (or tightly controlled) supply currency.

The Gold standard that we await everyone here can never see the light !

Government can't be fiscally responsible and will always go in a socialist and Keynesian currency debasing orgy: another proof of why democracy, entitled individuals and the FSA will always collapse.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:06 | 5963749 Moccasin
Moccasin's picture

Last time I bought BTC it was $25~ a coin and briflely I regretted my move until the market went nutz, lmfao.... I don't care what anyone thinks, it seems to me another good time to buy in again. I just don't have many places that I want to convert btc to usd/silver/gold or places that won't sell my ass out to the tax man when I do dump my btc. When I do part with them digital btc tiddlywinks, gold is my buddy. :-)

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 13:14 | 5963769 GoldSilverBitcoinBug
GoldSilverBitcoinBug's picture

Move on a country where you aren't taxed (ie Dubai, Hong Kong and things like that) live at least six months here (proofing your tax residency) and then cash out your BTC free of income taxes.

Don't cash out in Sweden or France, that's obvious :)

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 18:07 | 5964841 statelessman
statelessman's picture

If he is a United States citizen or greencard holder there is no escaping U.S. capital gains and the obamacare surtax, well unless you just don't care.

Tue, 04/07/2015 - 07:35 | 5966137 GoldSilverBitcoinBug
GoldSilverBitcoinBug's picture

Abandon the US citizenship, BTW America start to be viewed very bad around the world when traveling it's now an inconvenience to have a US passport... Thanks for your government foreign policies.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 14:46 | 5964133 overqualified
overqualified's picture

here is where to trade btc for phyzz with privacy:

https://tinyurl.com/nku4tjp

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 15:33 | 5964272 crazytechnician
crazytechnician's picture

BITCOIN IS DEAD .

 

2675 TIMES ALREADY.

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 15:48 | 5964340 Suleyman
Suleyman's picture

Bitcoin is money.

 

Mon, 04/06/2015 - 17:25 | 5964677 Youri Carma
Youri Carma's picture

Terminator Salvation – Attack on Skynet HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyWIiYQv7E

I call them Algo-Bots.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!