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"Odious Debt" Has Finally Arrived: Greece To Write Off "Illegal" Debt
It was back in June 2011 when we first hinted that the time of Odious Debt is rapidly approaching.
As a reminder, this is what Odious Debt is: In international law, odious debt is a legal theory which holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are thus considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.
Today, nearly four years later, Odious Debt is now a reality in Greece, where Zoi Konstantopoulou, the head of the Greek parliament and a SYRIZA member, released two videos which have promptly gone viral, designed to promote the investigative parliamentary committee to look into the circumstances surrounding the signing of the country’s two bailout agreements that led Greece to implement its austerity measures.
The short video spots, shown below, end with the message “Check it, Erase it” referring to the country’s 320 billion-euro debt.
That this concept emerges now is perhaps confusing: it was just a few days ago when the Greek FinMin promised to the IMF that Greece would honor all of its debt commitments. Should Greece decide that some (or all) of its debt was illegal and unenforceable, this will clearly not happen. Then again, this is the same political party that made pre-election promises whose execution would require about €30 billion according to German calculation, so the relentless flipflopping is not very surprising.
On the other hand, while perhaps Greece was hoping for a more favorable outcome from Tsipras' meeting with Putin today, the resultant outcome which led to virtually nothing (that was revealed at least) may embolden the Greek nation to push on with this track which is certain to infuriate the Troika.
According to Greek Reporter, Konstantopoulou has said that the newly established “Debt Truth Committee,” will investigate how much of the debt is “illegal” with a view to writing it off.
Proving that this is more than just a populist stunt, during a vote that took place early yesterday, out of the 300 Greek MPs, 156 voted in favor of establishing the public debt auditing committee.
“The committee will examine how Greece entered into the bailout agreements with its international lenders, as well as any other matter related to the memoranda’ implementation,” SYRIZA Parliamentary Secretary Christos Mantas had explained earlier.
“We are fulfilling our commitment and the social demand to explore the causes and responsibilities of an unprecedented crisis that devastated the vast majority of society,” Mantas added.
If the Greek "Debt Truth Committee" indeed persists with determining how much of its debt is legal and enforceable, and ultimately decides to rescind some (or all) of it, the only question is how long until other countries around the world, all of which are burdened with massive, untenable debt loads across the government, financial and household sectors, decide it is time to do the same and declare a fresh start.
Because as the end of the day, the winners will be 99% of the population - or all those who have been trampled upon by the central banking regime and their crony capitalist, private bank and oligarch backers. The only losers will be that 0.01% of the population which benefited during the past 8 years of what is now obvious to all has been nothing more than a farcical global "recovery."
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About time!
All sovereign debt is odious.
Now, will they dare bring charges against GS?
Can I use that excuse to NOT pay my mortgage?
American Express ripped me off!
All American States to declare tomorrow, they do not owe any of the Federal Reserve's debts.
In my country there is problem
And that problem is the Jew
They take everybody money
And they never give it back
Throw the jew down the well (repeat line)
So my country can be free (repeat line)
You must grab him by his horns (repeat line)
Then we have a big party (repeat line)
If you see the Jew coming
You must be carefull of his teeth
You must grab him by his money
And tie his greedy hands & gag his mouth
Between This DEBT Write-Off And German War Reparations, Greece Will Have ZERO Debt And Cash To Boot...
Geniouses, GENIOUSES I SAY!!!
Odious debt? Seriously?!! In the last 50 years has ANYONE EVER EVER in ANY COUNTRY?!! been asked if they approve or disapprove of ANY federal deficit or debt?
I have been old enough to vote for 30 years and I have *never* had the opportunity to veto ANY DEFICIT!!
If it was up to the citizens they would veto 80% of the bills that are introduced.
The democrats and the republicans have never ONCE vetoed a deficit in their histoy since they have had deficits.
So now - in a few years time when the dollar is crushed, the economy is collapsed, and people's kids are going hungry and people are living in the street only the epiphany of brainwashing would anyone dare say it is the fault of the citizens.
It must become illegal in all nations for anyone to lend any government money - ever!! If you do not think this is serious wait until this collapse gets real., All governments have a duty to their citizens to completely and totally default on their debts, firstly to remove the burden on them, and secondly to teach people not to lend the governments money.
greece could really set new standarts, but im shure they wont let them.
but interesting.
Opa !
Greece should just claim a negative interest rate on the debt.
@TIS <above>
But wait... The following is 'reportedly' the worldwide Jewish population: 13.3 million
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm
- The same site reports that 46% of jews live in the Americas... [for shits & grins, let's call it half ~ which would make somewhere slightly north of 6.6 million in 'The Americas']...
- This would jive with other WORLD JEW POPULATION info sites which proclaim jewish numbers to be 2% of population [whereby if you applied the numbers to the US census figures, you're talking the same numbers, 6.5 million to 7.5 million]
You could click on the link, or just read it here...
Approximately 37% of worldwide Jewry lives in Israel. Israel's Jewish population rose by 1.6% the past year, while the Diaspora population dropped by 0.5%.
Europe, including the Asian territories of the Russian Republic and Turkey, accounts for about 12 percent of the total. Fewer than 2 percent of the world’s Jews live in Africa and Oceania.
Metropolitan Tel Aviv, with 2.5 million Jews, is the world's largest Jewish city. It is followed by New York, with 1.9 million, Haifa 655,000, Los Angeles 621,000, Jerusalem 570,000, and southeast Florida 514,000.
Which, basically means that there are more jews around Hollywood, than Jerusalem...
- The same site also approximates that the jewish population growth is 0.3%
Another site, more or less confirms the numbers put forth in the previous link...
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
I think the question to ask is:
How is it possible that such a mathematically INFERIOR minority be able to get a stranglehold of worldwide:
- Banking
- Political Activism
- MSM
- Jurisprudence
In a timespan of only 70 years? [One might also consider the 'other' events that have happened during that same 70 years timeframe]
- Balfour Agreement being realized & nation state of ISRAEL ratified
- Bretton Wood Agreement abandoned
- a 1 in 325 million chance of pattern & placement of 'jews' being FED Chairs during post Bretton Woods
- jew CREEP into all bodies of US government, spy agencies, & MIC, & all of the above contracting services
- increasing use of 'TERROR' as a sound byte [I never remember hearing the word 'TERROR' before the 1972 Munich Olympics]...
Was it all by chance?... Because simple mathematics/statistics would tell you that that would be an IMPOSSIBLE 'multi sigma' event...
So
The next question you have to ask yourself is... HAS THIS IMPOSSIBLE PHENOMENON BEEN 'BENEVOLENT' TO MANKIND?...
I don't know about anyone else, but the dozens of threads that appear on ZH day after day seem to point to the fact that it is NOT benevolent... That, instead, MANY suffer at the hands of a few...
I'll leave it to geniuses like CH1 & SMG to explain to me how my observations are that of a lunatic...
Is there anyone around here who is capable of putting together numbers & thinking for themselves?
Jews or zionists? There is a huge difference. Jews tend to run delis and other honest businesses. Zionists seem to strive for political and financial jobs that help with global domination.
Also, you are leaving out a huge part of the equation. The zionists didn't put themselves in all these places and change all the rules. They had help. Name names and get ALL the information out there.
"Jews tend to run delis and other honest businesses." - you made me laugh there :)
It's got electrolytes!:
I'll bet you know the answer to your main question and don't realize it- or are trying to induce critical thought amongst us hoi-polloi.
Think about it;
If you or I were authorized to conjure any given jurisdiction's medium of exchange, for ourselves, at will, at virtually zero cost, we could control, well... everything.
I forget who said it, but our system of money and credit is at once so simple, and so utterly fraudulent- that the mind is repelled.
Truly, I have never investigated whether our esteemed Sir Stamp was Jewish, but I kinda doubt it. That a preponderance of those who claim to be Jews are drawn toward the banking sector is therefore not their own agenda, in my mind.
That they gravitate to the banker-controlled, money-for-nothing scam is not an indication that they are nefarious. Maybe they're just opportunistic, and therefore, handy scapegoats?
It's a long game, Thirst Mutilator. Think bigger.
Am I allowed to give hints? As you said, Brawndo, Jews are a disproportianally small segment of the world's population, but seem to control nearly everything. Fuck hints.
The fucking Pope of Rome claims ownership of this entire earth. Via the banking centers in London and New York, the world's "money" is managed- to take the onus off of Rome.
The Jews are the Pope's scapegoats.
Trouble is, the Muslims are taking more and more market share- and the Pope, via "the Crown" and the US puppets want to blame all of it on the Middle East and Russia.
If it wasn't such a deadly game, it'd be comical.
So half of you think I'm right while half of you think I'm wrong. The American Revolutuion was started by less.
Nowadays, we have people in foreign countries speaking up.
The next revolution will be worldwide , and understood by almost nobody.
You do not fucking get it cdee - the US has had only ONE regime, the so-called two party system.
Odious debt refers to debt taken on by a previous regime illeagally - they sold out or were under duress or whatever the fuck.
In the USSA case, both the Demopubs and the Republicats piled on the dept.
It would take a big-time revolution to overthrow the whole fucking blue-red system to declare our 18 trillion as "Odius".
Actually, that may not be a bad idea...
So once Americans kick the Republicrats out they become the prior regime and THEY are the ones who doubled our national debt since 2008 to provide bailouts to global banks even though citizens were against it about 50-1. All federal debt since 08 is odious, we just have to find a way to kick them out.
Odious debt? Seriously?!! In the last 50 years has ANYONE EVER EVER in ANY COUNTRY?!! been asked if they approve or disapprove of ANY federal deficit or debt?
I have been old enough to vote for 30 years and I have *never* had the opportunity to veto ANY DEFICIT!!
If it was up to the citizens they would veto 80% of the bills that are introduced.
The democrats and the republicans have never ONCE vetoed a deficit in their histoy since they have had deficits.
So now - in a few years time when the dollar is crushed, the economy is collapsed, and people's kids are going hungry and people are living in the street only the epiphany of brainwashing would anyone dare say it is the fault of the citizens.
It must become illegal in all nations for anyone to lend any government money - ever!! If you do not think this is serious wait until this collapse gets real., All governments have a duty to their citizens to completely and totally default on their debts, firstly to remove the burden on them, and secondly to teach people not to lend the governments money.
Odious debt? Seriously?!! In the last 50 years has ANYONE EVER EVER in ANY COUNTRY?!! been asked if they approve or disapprove of ANY federal deficit or debt?
I have been old enough to vote for 30 years and I have *never* had the opportunity to veto ANY DEFICIT!!
If it was up to the citizens they would veto 80% of the bills that are introduced.
The democrats and the republicans have never ONCE vetoed a deficit in their histoy since they have had deficits.
So now - in a few years time when the dollar is crushed, the economy is collapsed, and people's kids are going hungry and people are living in the street only the epiphany of brainwashing would anyone dare say it is the fault of the citizens.
It must become illegal in all nations for anyone to lend any government money - ever!! If you do not think this is serious wait until this collapse gets real., All governments have a duty to their citizens to completely and totally default on their debts, firstly to remove the burden on them, and secondly to teach people not to lend the governments money.
Third time's the charm...
Funny how they never think it's "illegal" when they take the $$, eh?
Who is "they"?
The banking hunter-gatherers.
You DO know that this is the first time in like 50 years that Greece had a government that wasn't PASOK or ND right?
F-You disinfo agent. The creators of Odious Debt, the Luciferian Globalist Bankster are the ones that are the cause of this. And you their sock puupet spread lies as you are told. In the end we will all be judged, even you. You can turn away from this now if you want, you have free will. Will you choose good?
Greece should write off all debt arranged by and through Goldman Sachs.
SUE Goldman Sachs for - Fraud in the Inducement - for aiding and abetting criminal politicians in the EU and Greece for false statements within the ADVISORY CONTRACT FOR analysis they knew was false
fuck them hard fuck them deep!!!!!
Very funny. Your indictment is absolutely true - but think of the outcome. If GS were made to pony up 300 billion euros, the Fed would cut the check. Remember this, nation states may come and go, but from the Fed's perspective, the global financial system is sacrosanct - to be saved at all costs. Those costs are you and me brother.
Sure but Greece repudiating the debt would set a precedent that would be easy to follow since the Feral Reserve is not elected so does NOT represent the US. Heck, the elected part really wouldn't even matter since Greece's governments were elected too.
"Sue Goldman Sachs?"
Greece's & other nations' patriots (if there are any) should put price tags on bankers' heads and put those contracts out for bid.
There are a lot of skilled operators looking for well paid work who'd consider those jobs as a double good deed.
They could even do a secret gofundme type deal.
Sue, that's a girls name. don't sue. The court would probably convene in NY. You're going to get justice in NY, right...Go to Lord 'doing gods work' Blankfind in the night cut his balls off and watch him eat them. That's just us
Greeks Are Geniouses!!!
Greece gave the private investors a 100 Billion haircut in 2012. It will only take a few more years to clip it all with the Greek shears.
No sympathy for the private investors. They were more than aware the country was not creditworthy, but believed their political liaisons being able to protect their speculative investments from consequences.
The Greeks gave the EU and IMF plenty of time to cough up a realistic repayment plan. Germany said the only repayment plan was more austerity.
The EU and Germany just fucked themselves royally and lost all control of the process. How much time and effort does anyone think Spain is going to endure when they know the only solution is to not pay.
The message from the EU is loud and clear: "...We tricked your stupid government fare and square into unsustainable debt. Pay it back even if you can't. It's pointless to negotiate..."
Greece isn't going to pay and is staging a little theatre about 'justification' for PR purposes. They know they owe it and they know they're not going to pay - it's as simple as that. Anyone trying to micro-analyze the situation based on hot air from the various politicians is wasting time. Greeks are privately snickering at the thought of any clownish 'legal debt' calculations.
Every Greek know the reality is: Molon Labe - If you want your money so bad, then come and take it. Shrieking EU politicians are pussies and will absolutely make more desperate demands, but they will never back them up. What's the biggest threat they have? "We won't loan you any more money!" The Greeks will laugh about that 'threat' for decades.
You can slice and dice the banker arguments of responsibility and morality all you want. Their entire IMF scam relies on debtor nations on their knees, obedient to the bankers until the end.
While I can't morally justify the Greeks position, I'm secretly delighted with their attitude: "Fuck you banksters - you'll never see a dime you greedy bastards" I have every ounce of faith in the Spainiards - I trust they're emboldened to do the exact same thing. Time to step up to the plate, Spain. I'm rootin' for all of you!
What's the biggest threat they have?
The biggest threat is cutting of ELA to the Greek banks which will lead to capital controls and a dysfunctioning banking system for some time. Pushed further, Greek banks will be technically bankrupt and incapable of facilitating simple functions like LC's for imports and exports. The economy will take a bigger dive (than it already has). The government will be forced to institute a parallel currency which will trade at a discount to the euro. Do the Greeks have the stomach for it? Time will telll, however, it seems clear that this is the showdown we are now facing.
I agree, Zenon.
"...The biggest threat is cutting of ELA to the Greek banks which will lead to capital controls and a dysfunctioning banking system for some time..."
The Greek oligarchs need the banking system, the 'little people' Greeks could care less at this point. The Greek government employees and pensioners are completely fucked any way you look at it - the banks are not going to help them one bit.
"...Do the Greeks have the stomach for it?..."
The Greeks are realists if nothing else. The average Greek knows they have no choice in the matter. The whole Ponzi is crashing down. The only choice 'little people' Greeks have is if they want to watch the remainder of the collapse on their knees or not.
for most of the greeks the system IS allready broken.
Well, one look at Argentina says this is a bad idea.
And of course Argentina is a lot more valuable than Greece.
"Stop feeding the Beast or else the Beast will eat you too."
How are you calculating "value"?
Certainly not from a strtegic stand point.
As mentioned, strategically, Greece is FAR more important than Argentina.
What happens if Greece,failing to pay triggers a derivative crisis and the whole Western world goes to shit in a week?
If the Greeks were realists this discussion wouldn't be taking place. The thing that matters is how angry are the Greeks.
Greece should buy some of every top shelf weapons system on credit at zirp/nirp, including aircraft carriers, and then offer to lease them all to Russia/China for payments that are enough to cover their "obligations". One bets the west would either go to war or make a generous counter offer to buy back.
"...Greece should buy some of every top shelf weapons system on credit at zirp/nirp, including aircraft carriers, and then offer to lease them all to Russia/China for payments that are enough to cover their "obligations"..."
Too complicated. Greece can offer a deepwater port to either China or Russia for a naval base in exchange for a loan.
After Greece announces a crazy-ass 98% haircut on their debt to the EU, they'll have some cash to pay back a new Chinese or Russian loan. Of course the EU will reject any Greek-announced haircut for ANY reason. It doesn't matter - they're not getting repaid, EVER. Greece does not care about its credit rating with the EU anymore. It will be the EU's problem from this point on, not Greece's. That's going to set off a financial meltdown that will probably bust the U.S. financial system as well. If the Greek default doesn't do it, Spain's default will. The U.S. isn't that insulated from the EU's problems - all the debt Ponzis are going down together. It's only a matter of time.
The only "repayment plan" that Greece would agree involved some country sending them more to spend and increase the debt. Greeks would agree to anything, as long as they get the cash.
All 350 million of us States.
Good for Greece. If the "debt" was not valid (i.e. money existed PRIOR to being "loaned) then it's not a debt.
They don't pay their taxes and threw Cyprus under the bus with the EU's aid.
Sorry, Greece!
They stole their pension funds now they are getting around to writting off the debts lol.
No joke the Germans made them feel desperate and they gave up their most valuable assets.
Damn. That is like a Generational Hit to Greece. Consumption down, lower wealth to kids, lower education for kids... what else but panic?
Asian people would not be so dumb I don't think. Americans in the USA will do the same as Greece. US People are not logical they are under mind control.
What? Say 10 years more or less for US to give up Retirement accounts??
Less.
The previous government stole the pension funds via PSI, I have not seen one evidence supporting that the current government is taking pension assets to pay for current expenses. The only parties supporting that this is happening is the media in Greece which has every reason to spread libel since the current government wants to check out, you know, why the media companies, while on losses for the last 5 years, get to get millions off of loans and not healthy enterprises instead.
Why write shit off after raiding the pension funds? The folks will still starve now. This is theatrics. Its much easier to write stuff off on a full stomach.
Well that's a new twist the greeks pulled out of the hat. And the Bull Shitting continues.
I do not think they have written off anything yet. This is just theater for the sheep to keep them distracted while they raid other funds, remaining pension funds and anything not nailed down and deliver it over to the EU banks.
Yep. Can't afford the Pensions. When you're broke, you still starve to death. Gov can't help, they caused the problem. If you don't work, you don't eat.
The Chinese were eating pickles, they didn't starve. Greeks have olives and grapes.
A blade cuts both ways
Were you put on the mortgage by your parents when they were on a drunken holiday? If not then no.
Dang, what about the Iraq War?
ANTISEMITE!!! *froth*
Q: "Can I use that excuse to NOT pay my mortgage?"
A: No, because you personally signed it
the principal should be paid back, but not the USURY (interest)............
Interest is merely the cost of time. You're more than welcome to forgo consumption while you save up the money otherwise.
Great theory, but it really is a kind of fiction. How did time come to be something that can be turned into a commodity, like wheat or pork bellies?
As a system it works, so long as the interest money can get recycled into the real economy. But let's not get theological about it!
"As a system it works, so long as the interest money can get recycled into the real economy. "
Other way round.
As a system usury is parasitic and destructive but as long as the parasites only take a small slice off the top then it won't completely destroy an economy. However if it ever becomes dominant e.g. the last 30 years or so in the US, it will very rapidly destroy the economy.
Interest is parasitic. It doesn't matter if interest is "fair" or not; it is functionally parasitic and destructive.
That's too simplistic a view. We have low interest now which is hurting savers.
You're right it is too simplistic *on its own* but it is a necessary starting point.
Once you accept that interest by definition only ever extracts and is therefore always parasitic then you realise questions involving interest all revolve around *net* cost/benefit. The usury is always cost so the benefit must come from what the usury enables - so for usury not to be *net* parasitic the loan must be for something productive that adds more to the economy than the usury extracts.
examples:
1) a loan to build a factory that adds more to the economy than the interest payments extract ccan be *net* positive
2) mortgage interest is parasitic. however if the initial saving for a deposit to buy a house and the interest payments themselves are used to invest in local businesses then the benefit from that may make mortgage loans *net* productive. (this was true for a long time before banksterism took over completely in the 1980s)
3) on the other hand sub-prime mortgage loans used solely to provide collateral for bankster gambling on the commodities markets has the negative extractive effect of usury without any compensating benefit to make up for the damage.
The key point in each case is something must compensate for the negative effect of usury.
@notapplicable......
''Interest is merely the cost of time.''...........sounds like something Krugman would write.....banks do not loan money.....you have been here long enough, you should know that by now....
repayment extinguishes credit money..........you create the 'money' when you sign the mortgage documents and you de-create when you pay back the principal.......paying interest or USURY is merely a theft of your labor..
Not only that, but the "cost of time" is only applicable to existing money. Money created with the stroke of has no penalty attached to it - no consumption has be denied to its owner. The creator of the credit money did not have to give anythng up, therefore there is no "cost of time" concept.
A genuine saver forgoes the ability to consume, while the money is loaned out, and is therefore entitled to a penalty. No so a credit creator, Q.E.D no penalty [interest] is applicable.
Credit creators create loans FIRST, this then creates SAVINGS [deposits] occur, or so says the Bank Of England:
Money creation in the modern economy - Bank of EnglandIn all fairness, the previous Greek politcians who borrowed the money should pay. But life's not fair, so the Greeks have to deal with their mistakes.
1000-yard Stare:
If your mortgage passed through MERS to a trust, it will soon be provable in court that the chain of title was broken and the holder of your mortgage has no claim - because when you get done paying it off and they transfer the title to you **the title they give you will be worthless**! YOUR HOME HAS NO LEGAL OWNER, and NO LEGAL TITLE TO IT IS POSSIBLE!
That's the condition of about 15% of all the titles to real property in the US! Very likely that's the condition of another 30% or so that have passed through the hands of Fannie and Freddie in the past 20 years.
The banks are trying to get judges to just award them the property anyway. Which amounts to theft - organized, and demonstrably premeditated theft - on a scale of trillions of dollars. And the wanton destruction of the system of real property that's the foundation of our financial system.
Odious enough?
MERS Can you be more specific? Here are the websites for MERS
-
http://mortgageendgame.com/MERSmemberNum.php
http://mersinc.org/about-us/member-search
https://www.mers-servicerid.org/sis/index.jsp
My Mortgage is in MERS. My house mortgage has gone through at least 3 Banks.
Credit for Websites goes to Greg Morse.
There is a difference between the mortage and the note. One is the obligation to pay, the other is a claim to the underlying asset (the property). The folks who talk about MERS always implictly assume they are the same - they are not.
Not really. Works as an excuse not to pay any unsecured debt though.
Only if someone other than you signed the mortgage agreement against your wishes. Then you might have a legal claim that you were coerced.
Interesting legal concept and I see this spending years in court. As for GS, they deserve it but it would be a bit tricky in this case.
We suspect that Sweeping Reforms and Revolution-Type, Massive Actions are what is needed.
Any government debt should be illegal because governments only spend more than they take in
to benefit politicians not the people. So the people should not be responsible for that debt, the
politicians are. No one would lend governments money if they knew that the people could
repudiate that debt when a new government takes office. That would be a good thing and we
would go back to balanced budgets, as we should.
Now there's a Greek that gets it. You'll never get a balanced budget with leftists in power though. To them money is magicaly created for the benefit of all and without consequences. They are against capitalism which is the very thing they need to fund their welfare state.
Should not the state create money as one of its sovereign rights? I suppose that in the case of the EU this right has been given to the European Union government but it should never, ever be given to the private bankers and central bankers who have that power now. Money must be created for the stable functioning of the economy in order to ensure price stability, and this can be done most effectively by creation of money, debt-free, by an independent agency of government, and its subsequent spending into circulation by the legislature.
"They put a gun to my head.".. and YES THEY DID do just that. And who were the negotiators? About time these friggin politicians answered for their decisions. And the bankers and the book-cookers."
Iceland had the balls to call it and partially name who was responsible. To attempt to take back some semblance of independence. They were on the verge of being raped.
So go ahead all you and down vote..... Greeks are lazy, tax avoiders, etc. That is not really the point here. People who steered the deals, bankers who cooked the books and then profited from it,,,,IMF, bought-off politicians who long ago forgot how to be honest. (or even know the meaning of the concept )
II am fed up with this priviledge nonsense. Hang them all.
The people of Iceland had the courage to call the bankers on their fraud.
The people of Greece got fooled by GS, ECB and IMF. They got loans accepted by former governments looking for short time advantage ignoring the long time disadvantages. Now Greece is insolvent, even if the creditors refuse to admit it.
Iceland and Greece has one thing in common: The people decide. Neither country is yet the pseudo-democracy we see in other parts of the world.
If the first party promising honest fiscal policy in Greece does not deliver, another more eager party will be voted in.
Good for ZH. I followed the 2011 link.
Makes me think that part of the odious debt responsibility lies with the bankers who falsified gov. books, ECB, IMF, Germany, All predatory speculators, Soros,,,,who else can be included as the list goes on. EVERY Greek politician who went along with eyes-wide-open rape. And lied to the population.
I don not wish to nit pick here. BUT
Seems to me almost every single printed piece of toilet paper that obligates citizens to be subject to private banking interests is within the defintion of odious debt. So when was Central banking in a national interest or even legal?
"In international law, odious debt is a legal theory which holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are thus considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion."
Exactly. What made Greek debt odious is credit default swaps and derivatives. Otherwise those loans would not have beeb extended Similarly, in US subprime mortgages would not have been extended if income verification was duly enforced and collateralizations did not recieve AAA ratings. Bottom line is the entire financial system is odious because our regulators are not enforcing or politicians create loopholes for the likes of GS, AIG, CITI , Mogan Chase, Hedgefunds and others. Making matters worse is the debt ridden US Treasury and Fed bailing out the Odious Institutions. There are many real life examples with the latest college odious loans bubble for example that made bankruptcy virtually impossible---talk about Odious. We are living in a Global Odious Economy which will destroy the fabric of civilization. Greece is a test case
VERY WELL SAID!!!
Sounds like Putin gave him some advice...
There is a model in corporate bankruptcy practice for Greece to use. Consider how bankrupt companies arrange bridge financing to keep afloat while going through Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The current shareholders, unsecured bondholders, and trade creditors get stiffed, the current secured creditors become the new shareholders, and the new bridge finance companies become the new senior creditors.
In Greece's case, the Greek government needs a bridge financier (Russia? SCO? AIIB? China?) while it stiffs the Troika. If the Troika cuts off the ELF funding of Greek banks, there will be an immediate banking crisis. The Greek government is almost dead broke, and will not be able to pay pensions, salaries, and other expenses for long, without a Sugar Daddy financier.
Declaring all existing debts as "odious" would allow Greece to refuse to let the IMF move in and sell off Greek assets to pay back the IMF.
It remains to be seen whether Greece will meet its April 9 payment to the IMF, and will comply with the Troika demands. This move to set up an odious debt committee may be no more than a last-ditch negotiating ploy to force the Troika to allow Greece to extend and pretend some more.
The next few days should be interesting for the Troika, Euro, EU, Germany, and for Euro derivatives.
I've been saying this for years.
In international law, odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is a legal theory that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.
Let those who signed up for the debt pay for it, not those it was imposed upon.
America's children have every right to consider America's national debt Odious. They were born as debt slaves to the older genreation's spending spree and wars of choice. A kid born today has a direct debt bill for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Should they be held liable for it? I think not. It is Odious by it's very nature. The system by which congress can spend the futures money by piling debt onto unborn children is the very definition of Odious Debt.
Congress has no right to spend other's money and call it a national debt. If you want war, then put a tax in place to pay for it. Oh! In that case would you dare push for more war? No, not really!
the greeks have a perfectly legal right not to pay this. they were entrapped by a greedy world bank whose true motive was eventual asset-stripping. when a lender is fully aware of a potential creditor's inability to repay a debt, the risk of a default on this debt is entirely with the lender. he is the one who, against all financial sense, chose to lend the money. and as far as seizing assets goes, any collateral for a loan must be outlined and agreed to in the note. and I seriously doubt the greeks put their country, its utilities and valuables up for collateral.
I'm making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do... www.globe-report.com
Just do a Bernanke and throw the Greek Seniors under the Bus .... opp's they already did that.
Debt Truth Committee. We can't handle the fucking truth!!
Thanks ZH.
USA has been involved in Greece since 1947. Do you think the USA & it's Elites & it's Warped MIC will let this go forward without blood???
1947 - Official US War on Communism, to support Greece & Turkey
1967 Greek coup d'état - Supported by USA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Greek_coup_d'%C3%A9tat -
The 1967 Greek coup d'état took place on 21 April 1967, just weeks before scheduled elections, when a group of right-wing army officers led by Brigadier ...
Perhaps, but the American youth of 1947 is very different from the American youth of 2015. So hard to find a dependable MERC these days...
You don't think the oligarchs will go over there and get the coup going themselves do you?
Confused: we can use foreign troops or get proxies from many countries. Military action is a drug. A High. And you get respect, acknowledgement, pats on the back, feeling of belonging, feeling of being part of an Elite US Group of Military Operators, reinforcement, a feeling of power, a sense of immortality...
Many people try military action willingly and like it.
That's not what I see at all and I have military experience. The quality of the soldier matters and many very good ones will no longer fight for the U.S. In our own country or that of our allies. The ones that do volunteer are ignorant and out of shape, they have a plan right up until the first IED goes off. Then they are useless.
You speak truth as far as I know which is not far.
But Recruiting is not just done on US Soil. If USA is based in 700 countries (which I can't image even up to 400)... you have places like Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvatore, Honduras, Columbia, Philippines to recruit from.
And I would think with the Dirty wars in the 1970s in the Cone of South America there would be experienced guys even if older.
In the 1990s I heard there were always like 22 wars world wide. Today it must be closer to 30 wars globally. that is a lot of recruiting grounds.
Well, if we can't get a hot war going in Syria or Ukraine, what makes you think the U.S. public will support a war against Greece to collect for the bankers? I think that would be some funny sh*t if American politicians started beating the drums for war on Greece to protect the EU. Ha Ha Ha.
"If USA is based in 700 countries (which I can't image even up to 400)..."
I can't even imagine half of that. 57 States is even more believable.
I think you meant 700 bases, n'est pas?
Yeah, most of us would fail to name 300 countries.
If there are 30 Wars globally, let's just say the USA has trained people in like 50 countries.
Anyway to post above I don't mean a hot war with USA stating publicly they will bomb or use missiles or drones on Greece.
I mean Covert Action involving blood maybe, but certainly attempting to overthrow the regime and maybe use of proxies or false flag events to draw the public sentiment to the Right wing where the Neocons are. A strategy of tension.
Yeah, this'll work just fine...
YeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaa. Next the issuance of the arrest warrent for one Lloyd Blankfein.
NOW You're Talkin'!!
You would think they would contact a guy like me to be on this "Debt Truth Committee". I'd give 'em an earfull. But, sadly, no.
Debt truth is the one thing they want to avoid at all cost, which is what would make this so much fun if they drag it into open court....
Fortunately, there's no chance of that happening.
Quite possibly not but the EU is tap dancing in a minefield and we've got people like Bepe Grillo and Marine LePen who could make a lot of waves if they sweep it under the rug.....
The honest truth, KD, is that they really don't even give a shit if you see through their lies any more. There's not shit you can do about it and they know it.
Oh I dont know about that actually. I think there would be a very healthy post mortem on the whole fucked up system. So yes powers wish to avoid any real truth to this.
Maybe that is what Putin told them.
AND COMPLETELY off topic. I notice (when I pay any attention at all) that I get almost equal up and down votes. Mommy taught me well I guess, Is that a happy medium split in demographics?
Must confuse the trolls anyway. Cheers Greece. I just popped a bottle of Retsina (gasoline that it is but I will stomach it)..cheers down voters. And cheers to Iceland,
So do you require SOCIAL VALIDATION? (especially from this motely crew of lowbrows...including me)
Are you not well grounded and confident enough about your own core principles?
If people are using the arrows at all then it confirms that your ideas are being read and considered.
Right or wrong at least you are communicating.
Personally I pay little attention to arrows (some) but if someone disagrees with me then I am always open to debate.
Now it irritates me, at times, when I have presented evidence, with sources, that someone will downarrow. It does not change the reality and they cannot dispute the reality. They may not like it, but, unless they can provide a valid counterpoint then why even bother? Because they do not like it? Wahhhhh. Too bad.
I encourage the dialouge and when someone uses an downarrow then it means that they cannot formulate and present a rational counterpoint argument to my proposition. I can be mistaken, and when I am, I will admit it as I have many times before.
So I pay more attention to serious responses, without the ad hominems, or other logical fallacies, much more than I do arrows.
Perhaps you need to do the same.
Now my response is a much better response than a downarrow, isn't it?
And you are free to downarrow it if you want.
Who gives a shit about ups & downs?
State your case honestly, back it up with a reasonable argument, some facts and go from there.
Keep out of the fight club if you are scared of taking a beating.
Nice.
Saddest thing of all is , whether Germany wins this or not, the Squid still keeps the fees.
We aren't dead beats that don't pay our bills...we are the auditors cleaning up the fraud on the books!!!
Winning!!!
Time to sell the "How To" books on mortgages, student debt, and car loans.
I've got a three fold glossy brochure almost into the printer's.
Need to fill in some of the empty space, although the background is killer!
Don't believe this ... the Central Planners would rather start killing people and throw any survivors in prison than admit it was all a criminal fraud all along -
The truth will set you free.
Let the banker wars begin
Now this IS Exciting.
Finally some threat to the Status Quo.
Not really the Status Quo are writing the script so lets keep stalling by discussing odious debt. DOES NOT CHANGE THE CURRENT SITUATION.
Rejoice Uncle at least someone is faking them out or voicing resistance.
It all has to come down to Resistance, right?
I know you are a cynic. We are all cynics at ZH.
But this is all we have. We can look for an Individual to Stand up to the Patriarchs that think they say what the rules are for EU, for USA, for Iceland, for Greece, for Argentina.
It is a big Club and YOU are not invited. Our History is Censored and they won't tell you this. How can you vote. How can you be a good citizen. How do you take responsibility when special military people know our history as they created it, but you don't rate to get the info.
Perhaps. with all respect. Perhaps you should no longer be waiting to cheer someone else doing what needs to be done. Cynics, realists, optimists with eyes open.
Maybe it is time to think about acting somehow.
No one on ZH should admit to acting.
I'm not an actor other than trying to look at truth.
But is ZH free from informers and agents?
What are you willing to say on ZH?
Keep your thoughts of action and response to yourself and your family. Maybe I don't know how to respond to power. Maybe ZH can provide a forum where someone can tell citizens how to respond to power.
I know there are supposed to be ways to approach government and it seems okay where I live. But I am not an Insider. Who keeps these records, what data is recorded, who gets identified locally for data pulls. Seems we are all recorded for our political views and that this data will be used to put you in a category.
What is an anonymous action that can be taken to change local or national politics without getting put on a list?
Art. That is it.
So, WhackoWarner. You are an Artist. Thank you for your Art.
Admission to acting is not good.
Teaching the methodology of action, without encouragement, is much better.
Tommorow's news today...
Do not hold your breath but the IMF will announce that it has extended the deadline for the payment from Greece expected tommorow. The excuse used will be that the IMF is going to investigate the Greek's claims.
God forbid that the IMF announce a Greek DEFAULT as that make make the CDS triggers happen.
They will kick this can until the can becomes unmovable. At that point all hell breaks loose.
Reasonable call. Kicking the can down the road is a US Specialty but maybe learned from UK, some other European Nation, the Catholic Church, or China.
"That this concept emerges now is perhaps confusing: it was just a few days ago when the Greek FinMin promised to the IMF that Greece would honor all of its debt commitments."
Are you REALLY confused? I get the feeling nobody is at all confused about what's going on here at this late hour.
Perhaps a Japanese cue.
Honor your ancestors.
The past is the past.
I did not read any comment which referred to that until yours.
I do believe that the vast majority did not consider that the IMF will use THIS CLAIM of ODIOUS DEBT as a reason to open an investigation and suspend tommorow's payment.
THe game must continue, the can must be kicked, and the IMF cannot declare a DEFAULT anymore than Greece can declare a Force Majeure.
That will only serve to collapse the Derivatives Markets as the CDS Insurance Payments would have to be realized.
They will kick this can until they cannot. At that point the Global Economy meltsdown. The Derivatives Market will implode every Financial Institution on the face of the Planet.
It is all a fraud and a sham.
What is more astonishing is that the people with the most to lose just ignore this to their own peril and to their final destruction.
When they must face the fact that the King is Stark Raving Naked then they lose everything. So it is built upon illusion and the destruction will happen.
Hello September...Looking forward to it. Time is running short, very short.
Varoufakis has said they cannot pay their debt. Providing more credit when someone explicitely says they can't pay it back is indeed odious.
Any credit given to Greece will be to benefit the banks.
They know that Greece is likely the domino that would kick off disaster, so they will do anything they can to avoid it.
Debt truth committee...... Lol.... Fucking politicians come up with the dumbest names. I think they should name it the bankers are scum of the earth and should be hung committee.
Yea right, like "Federal Reserve" and "Social Security Lock Box"
The rule of opposites, call it the one thing you least want.....
Words like 'truth' never fit properly in politicians' mouths.
It's like when my wife tries pillow talk with me "Ooo, you're so BIG!" Seriously? I don't get the feeling even you believe that, honey. How about you just shut up and lay still for a couple minutes?
You are an idiot.
You don't know me well enough to say that with conviction.
As to your post about arrows above???
You received the downarrows here for using an ad hominem and not formulating a coherent response.
The doctrine of odious debt was formalized in a 1927 treatise by Alexander Nahum Sack, a Russian émigré legal theorist. It was based on two 19th-century precedents—Mexico's repudiation of debts incurred by Emperor Maximilian, and the denial by the United States of Cuban liability for debts incurred by the Spanish colonial regime.
thanks for that. You are a nimble thinker.
In regards to your previous whine about downarrows...
The report of facts takes neither thought nor cleverness. However it is BENEFICIAL as it PROVIDES RELEVANT INFORMATION and the DEFINITION of the TERMINOLOGY. (And for that I am grateful as it demonstrates an appreciation of the dialouge, adding value to it. Instant uparrow.)
Using facts in order to develop a valid argument is an example of thinking.
That may be a source of your downarrows here.
@Golbugger . Add to that the fact that corrupt politicians in league with Goldman Sachs conspired to hide the debt , then add the Libor scandal , the Forex rigging , the euro toilet paper which is fraud in itself and the USURY called interest and voila' just like magic you have nations enslaved for generations .
The traitors from the EU , the BCE and the IMF shoudl be rounded up and shot !
AGREED!
You are much too kind.
The best part of this is that the announcement of the establishment of the Debt Truth Committee is basically concurrent with announcement of the potential Russian bailout of Greece. My initial thought was I was surprised Russia would lend to Greece just so it could pay back EU / IMF, etc. Turns out my underlying assumption was dead wrong. The new lender will just leap frog priority in front of the old lender! Unlike the IMF funding Ukraine to honor repayments to Gazprom!
Chess, anyone?
The Soveriegn Debt Crisis stew begins to Bubble and it smells like Cordite to me.
Great idea ... I wish we could have a "Debt Death Panel" ... GS, JPM, BA, WF, US Gov ... all fake debt (printed fiat) declare dead and move on.