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The Mystery Of China's Gold Holdings Is Coming To An End
Back in 2011, Zero Hedge first asked the key question that matters to the gold market: what are China's true holdings of physical gold.
As is well known, the last time China did provide an update of its official gold inventory was in early 2009 when it disclosed to the IMF some 1,054.1 tons of gold held at the PBOC headquarters (or elsewhere). The problem is that this number is now very outdated, and substantially undercuts China's true gold holdings.
To be sure, there has been extensive speculation on the topic, suggesting China's current gold may be anywhere between 3,000 and 8,000 tons (or more) but the reality is that until Beijing itself decides to officially reveal the number, speculation will remain just that. And, as we and many others, Bloomberg included, have noted such a revelation will not come in a vacuum, but will be largely a political statement about the preparedness of the Renminbi to replace the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency.
Back in 2011, a leaked cable (courtesy of Wikileaks) admitted as much:
"China increases its gold reserves in order to kill two birds with one stone"
"The China Radio International sponsored newspaper World News Journal (Shijie Xinwenbao)(04/28): "According to China's National Foreign Exchanges Administration China 's gold reserves have recently increased. Currently, the majority of its gold reserves have been located in the U.S. and European countries. The U.S. and Europe have always suppressed the rising price of gold. They intend to weaken gold's function as an international reserve currency. They don't want to see other countries turning to gold reserves instead of the U.S. dollar or Euro. Therefore, suppressing the price of gold is very beneficial for the U.S. in maintaining the U.S. dollar's role as the international reserve currency. China's increased gold reserves will thus act as a model and lead other countries towards reserving more gold. Large gold reserves are also beneficial in promoting the internationalization of the RMB.
It is no secret that one of the primary prerogatives of the Politburo in recent years has been to do just that: internationalize the RMB, as such quietly adding to its gold reserves is precisely in the interest of the Chinese nation.
This is what Bloomberg said today when it decided to turn its attention to this critical topic:
While the metal is no longer used to back paper money, it remains a big chunk of central bank reserves in the U.S. and Europe. China became the world’s second-largest economy in 2010 and has stepped up efforts to make the yuan a viable competitor to the dollar. That’s led to speculation the government has stockpiled gold as part of a plan to diversify $3.7 trillion in foreign-exchange reserves.
Bloomberg's own estimate:
The People’s Bank of China may have tripled holdings of bullion since it last updated them in April 2009, to 3,510 metric tons, says Bloomberg Intelligence, based on trade data, domestic output and China Gold Association figures. A stockpile that big would be second only to the 8,133.5 tons in the U.S.
This is how Bloomberg arrives at this number:
China is the world’s largest gold producer and ranked behind only India among top consumers last year, but the amount of metal its central bank last reported holding in 2009 accounts for just 1 percent of foreign-exchange reserves, which have surged more than fivefold in a decade and are the biggest in the world. Most of that is in dollars.
At the same time, other "experts" are finally realizing what we have said all along:
[Adding gold] may bolster the view China has “a currency that’s well backed by a range of different assets,” said Steven Dooley, a Melbourne-based currency strategist at Western Union Business Solutions for Asia-Pacific. “The most-liquid currencies tend to have a wide range of foreign-exchange reserves.”
"If you want to set yourself up as a reserve currency, you may want to have assets on your balance sheet other than other fiat currencies,” Bart Melek, head of commodity strategy at TD Securities, said by phone from Toronto. Gold is “certainly viewed as a viable store of value for an up-and-coming global power."
Apparently not according to Larry "No More Buybacks" Fink, who overnight said that "gold’s traditional role as a store of wealth has been usurped by contemporary art and apartments in cities such as New York and London" and then proceeded to pitch ETFs as a far better means of trading gold; ETFs of which Blackrock is, conveniently, the world's biggest provider.
One wonders: is that because apartments in London (and soon NYC) are about to be taxed through the nose, causing a selling panic as we reported before, or because the Bank of International Settlements does not have an artwork price suppression team? Or maybe it is simply because the world's billionaires simply can't find enough physical gold and have to resort to such ridiculous substitutes?
Ridiculous comments by firms that would prefer you transact in gold ETFs than collect physical gold aside, what is more interesting is that as Bloomberg correctly observes, "China may be preparing to update its disclosed holdings because policy makers are pressing to add the yuan to the International Monetary Fund’s currency basket, known as the Special Drawing Right, which includes the dollar, euro, yen and British pound. The tally may come before the IMF’s meetings on the SDR next month or in October, Nomura Holdings Inc. said in an April 8 report."
What should one expect:
With China disclosing so little about its hoard, finding out how much the central bank has in its vaults is of increasing interest to traders. Confirmation of bigger holdings would signal the importance of the metal as a reserve asset and boost market sentiment, TD Securities’ Melek said. At a time when prices are languishing, the buying could give support, said Suki Cooper, director of commodities at Barclays Plc in New York.
In a rare comment on gold, Yi Gang, the central bank’s deputy governor, said in March 2013 that the country could only invest as much as 2 percent of its foreign-exchange holdings in gold because the market was too small. The press office of the People’s Bank of China in Beijing didn’t respond to a fax seeking comment sent on April 14.
Because apparently it never crossed anyone's mind that if China was indeed preparing to announce a new gold-backed quasi-reserve currency it would try to talk the number down, not up, until the actual revelation.
Ashish Bhatia, the World Gold Council’s director, central banks and public policy, in New York, said there’s a lot of room for China to expand. It’s ideal for central banks to have 4 percent to 10 percent of assets in gold, he said. The PBOC may already hold at least 3,000 tons, said Warren Hogan, chief economist at Australia & New Zealand Banking Group Ltd. in Sydney.
“Gold has always been, through the history of China, a way to project power,” Kenneth Hoffman, a metals and mining analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, said in an interview on April 9. “They are thinking about how to make the yuan more international, and so this is a possible reason why they are buying so much gold.”
As a reminder, according to another recent estimate by BullionStar, if China were to announce that they hold 5 % of total reserves in gold, this would translate into roughly 5,000 tonnes.
So while the reality is that nobody has a clue what China's actual gold holdings are, the good news is that the answer is coming. As noted above, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang has asked the head of the International Monetary Fund to include China's yuan currency in its special drawing rights (SDR) basket. "China will speed up the basic convertibility of yuan on the capital account and provide more facility for domestic individual cross-border investment and foreign institutional investment in China's capital market," Xinhua paraphrased Li.
And while the official IMF meeting to determine whether the Special Drawing Right should be extended to include China's currency will take place in October, the informal board meeting will take place in a few weeks in May.
So if China is serious about CNY inclusion in the SDR, it will finally have to reveal its cards which would mean it updating the IMF, and the world (with a 6 year delay) just what its latest gold holdings are.
As such, don't be surprised to wake up one morning to headlines blasting that Chinese gold holdings have gone up by 2x, 3x, 5x or (more x) since 2009, a long-overdue update which will catalyze the next major leg higher in the precious metal.
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So if China is holding mad phyzz, why can't they set the price?
cuz it's so barbarous, dude
cuz price is set by paper, not phys
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-21/new-york-apartments-ar...
I laughed. The bottom (top) for gold (NY real estate) must be in.
Leave it to Bloomberg to be a bastion of truth and justice... /sarc
Ya, totally. The MSM in the West is always on top of things, true and proud.
Remember my friends: gold is not backed by anything.
CHINA Must Be Very Happy With The Suppressed POG Of 1200.
They Are In Accumulation Mode, And Probably Don't Pass Up Buying Every Single
Free Ounce Out In The Market At 1200.
At Some Point When They Are Ready, The GOLD Details Will Come Out Public And You will
Be Instantly Paying North Of 5000.
Gold is Equity in the SDR IPO
http://twoshortplanksunplugged.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/gold-is-equity-in-sdr-ipo.html
We must consider that all the Fan fair about BRICS and the new World Bank can simply be a ploy to gain more control/power at the SDR table. Perhaps China knows that NOW is the time to lay the cards down considering China's economic slow-down.
China’s Gold Reserves: How big is the Elephant in the room?
http://twoshortplanksunplugged.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/chinas-goldreserves-how-big-is-elephant.html
Should be just shy of 8,000 Tonnes now but I also believe they will only declare up to 5,000 tonnes....because “Personally, I believe they are very close, but that they will always claim to be in an Under-Dog position when in fact they’re building an overshoot position. You can blame Sun Tzu for that crap, “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak”
The big question is whethter or not China will open its vaults for people to see the reserves, Would our Treasury then do the same?
whenever china makes its big "announcement", the price of gold will further decline toward its natural price of zero
consider an announcement that china's gold holdings are 10x what had been previously stated
such an announcement will signal that china has finished building its hoard
it will no longer be a buyer
all the gold currently flowing into china will suddenly be searching for a buyer
any buyer
but in the absence of the chinese buyer of last resort, the gold price will drop like a stone
glad to clear this up
hugs,
blythe
a-yep. No matter what happens the (western) press will make damned sure the public understands that the event is absolutely devastating for anyone foolish enough to own gold. In this case it would be especially delicious since it would require the western press to finally admit that China has been furiously accumulating, a fact they have done everything to evade including attacking people like Koos.
Rothbard had an anecdote (I think it appeared in The Case Against The Fed) where he showed newspaper clippings from the days after Nixon closed the gold window. Consensus among reputable economists was that $35 was an artificial price floor and that without government support, gold would trade down to its intrinsic value of about $10 per ounce. Wise investors were warned to get out before taking an instant 66% loss.
A few months back I wrote a fictitious Bloomberg story about a Comex default where the money quote was something about gold holders being in the same position as trinket sellers if Ebay shut down.
Good times...
so china has gold, so what? its not like you could buy it from them unlike the united states. gold is the enemy of the state and they know it, thats why the hoarding it by every government. the dollar could easily be rebacked by gold because thats where we came from and we are about limited government and individual freedom very unlike the slave state of china. we just have to jettison the joo buck system and get rid of the few on top who think they own us, they make this misconception at their own peril.
A war with China is far more likely than jettisoning the NYC slave masters who will instigate it. That's when China would have a real interest in disclosing their gold holdings.
"and we are about limited government and individual freedom very unlike the slave state of china" That is a funny one. You certainly arent talking about the US using those words. Have you not observed the drastic reduction of individual liberties and the rapid growth of the Federal Government over the past 100 years?
all of us here are well aware.
"and we are about limited government and individual freedom very unlike the slave state of china" That is a funny one. You certainly arent talking about the US using those words. Have you not observed the drastic reduction of individual liberties and the rapid growth of the Federal Government over the past 100 years?
China continually lies about it's supposedly 7% annual growth rate, so why would they disclose their true gold holding? After all, what's the last time those ±8000T US gold gold reserves were officially audited by an international and independant team of accountants? Well? Errrr...exactly, there's your answer.
It's all smoke and mirrors, and even if they one day the Chinese will magically 'disclose' that they have 4000 or 5000T, how will the world really know if it's not 8000T or 1500T?
My guess is that they will keep on posturing and 'keep the other side guessing' as to how much gold they really have.
I doubt if the Chinese, on a long term basis, really want any gold standard. The Chinese love to lie and cheat as much as the US or Europe, so any gold/silver standard will also be a huge obstacle for them. Why create such obstacle, if they can also use this gold holding secrecy as leverage in order to muscle in on the fiat SDR game?
Here is yet another example of what China will do with the Western Fiat Currency System: http://www.carnewschina.com/2014/11/28/how-much-exactly-is-the-landwind-...
20K tons at $1900/oz. = nearly the same as the current Chinese US Treasury stash of $1.22 Trillion. They should be buyers below that level with no incentive to admit their holdings. Coincidently, $1900 was the price point when serious suppression began in '11.
Meanwhile, if US total debt of $18.25T was divided by the US official gold stash of 8500 tons(stop laughing!), I get nearly $67,000/oz. Things could ugly, for the US, above $1900/oz.
Im going to sell my stack and buy a Van Gogh asap.
If you are acquiring gold or silver this is a good little program for buying dips. I’ve been using it and it takes the guess work out, and stress of worrying about where silver or gold price is going out of the equation.
I'm a little dense tonight. Can someone walk me through the mechanics of why China HAS to both reveal it's gold holdings AND give an accurate figure?
That being said, if China announces they have 20,000 tonnes of gold, don't expect any fucking mention of that in the MSM here in the US. It'll be ignored by the super sharp investigative reporters we have "working' here in the US giving us outstanding coverage of important events here and around the world. Oh look, a squirrel!
I'm not positive about this, but I think when joining the sdr basket you have to specify your gold reserves and store a percentage with the imf. I don't quite see China doing that last though.
A current count of American gold would be nice, too. Geraldo could do a live show from Ft. Knox.
Just like Al Capon's vault ... Empty!
Yeah but Chubbar's point is that they will lie and the IMF will let them if it is deemed to be in everyone's interest. As an example, everyone knew Greeece was lying about its' financials when joined the EU, but the EU was worried about Greece falling into Russia's sphere of influence (so the story goes).
And so from Goldman on down the line to the ECB, the obvious lies were accepted as truth and truth tellers dismissed as having some weird agenda.
I have no idea if Alisdair Mcleod is right about China having 20,000 tons of the stuff, but if they did I don't see why they have to admit to having more to whatever was needed to allow the IMF to save face. Especially if China is "playing a long game" and the IMF is just doing whatever it needs to hold on for just a while longer.
@Baldrick : There's no way in hades that China is going to reveal its entire gold holdings. It's late in 4th quarter and all of a sudden the New England Patriots Coach runs up to the camera during the Superbowl and gives out all the plays he's about to run to everyone that will listen. Really? C'mon we know that China revealing it's true stash has about the same possibility. What a joke.. China will reveal it's true holdings when its ready and not until. Everything else is just a fire drill for editorial fun and entertainment. Might as well invite the National Enquirer to hold the press conference.
And some believe it is China themselves holding the price in check so they can accumulate the silver needed for their solar energy plans. Of course, since our govt wants to keep gold in check to mask the dollar, i'm sure they have no objection if it's China doing the dirty deed. It's in no way in its self interest to have rising prices before they are ready to flip the switch. Then the FOFOA guys may have their day.
Gee, I thought that the price was set by some ultra wealthy ruling class who manipulates the price to skim more money off the dumb Americans...
I put together a companion piece for this article wondering about the mystery of US gold holdings as well as China's, and the linkage between the two...take a read.
http://econimica.blogspot.com/2015/04/exactly-what-did-nixon-say-44-years-ago.html
They can. They don't want to, because it's in their interests to let TPTB keep driving gold into the basement so they can convert their fiat accumulations at a discount.
did u happen to see that a monster box was slightly over $8K late last night?
Maybe I've got all the phyzz and I should set the price? Or maybe most of the world's gold is in Ft. Knox lol. Would be interesting to know what if anything is used to validate inventory....
"To be sure, there has been extensive speculation on the topic..."
well by all means, pile on some more on top of what we already have...
so, if China has to lift their knickers for all to see to be a recognized XDR currency, does that mean the gold holdings for the currently recognized currencies are confirmed and legitimate? just throwing that out there lol
Maybe China is holding down the physical gold price by manipulating paper gold ETFs?
I'm making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do... www.globe-report.com
News flash-
I'd starve on $7K per month.
Hey Double.Eagle,it's not you he's trying to hustle.
"Because apparently it never crossed anyone's mind that if China was indeed preparing to announce a new gold-backed quasi-reserve currency it would try to talk the number down, not up, until the actual revelation."
Of course, everyone else knows they should be buying fucking bitcoin./sarc
what if they had 20K tons like some have estimated? would they even admit to having that much, or is it like the pretend modesty of the guy with 14" inches of manhood? gold is mad, raw power. it does weird things to people.
Keep Stackin bitchez...
"...Larry "No More Buybacks" Fink, who overnight said that "gold’s traditional role as a store of wealth has been usurped by contemporary art and apartment.."
Joe six-pack ain't afford'n no fine art or city apartments as his hedge. This Fink seems to think that the only people that need secure, hedged savings are the elites. What an emblematic, self absorbed dick.
we wont know until the tell us...
but rest assured - ITS WAY MORE THAN THE UNITED STATES HAS LEFT....
cue jpg of dumb ass America throwing Gold over the fence to the Chinese...
and the Chinese throwing back debt coupon dollars to dumb ass America!
I think china would be right and fair to say to the IMF: if our gold is going to help back your SDRs, then we need transpatrency on how much other nations are holding/backing: Auditing Fort Knox is therefore requested. If it is declined, China can politely refuse the SDR route and simply continue the internationalisation of the yuan independently of the IMF structure
BOOM game set match
The biggest issue for little people who own PMs is confiscation via taxation. They can just tax the bejesus out of it.
Aside from Barter of a few kilo bricks and a quick-claim of land, I am not sure how you avoid it?
I can't tell if this is a serious question or not, but since it might be, I may as well give you an answer. Just in case anyone else is wondering...
Gold is CASH, and in a proper note system, notes certify a real quantity of gold. However, we don't have a proper note system, but a system where government promises are printed as fiat notes, and it is confidence in government's ability to redeem those promises that 'backs' those notes. In our pure-fiat system, nothing is considered "cash" but govvy debt scrip, and the system is failing b/c the government has printed so many of these promises that confidence is failing in its ability to back those promissory notes with its taxation of future labour. The term "cash" has been deliberately corrupted in our economic system, to mean government promises printed on fiat. (The steps below treat gold as the hard cash it is, and treat govvy fiat as, well, NOT cash.) This definition is the first thing to get straight, and then the rest becomes clear.
SO, step 1, in a fiat system, don't acquire gold unless your hands are strong enough to keep it. If you have to trade it back for a bunch of fiat, then all you have done is use your REAL cash savings to support the fake system a little longer, and someone savvy with strong hands (such as, oh, say, a guy from China) winds up exchanging a bunch of fake fiat for this hard cash. (Using it as cash for other investments such as land isn't a bad idea, BUT a pure fiat system necessarily undervalues cash, so do this ONLY if you are comfortable with overpaying for that land/other investment by a degree measured by how much fiat has been printed into the pricing system.)
Step 2, timing is everything. Wait until the fractional reserve fiat tumbles down from its own unsupported weight. (Again, if you sell your gold into a fiat economy, you are nothing but a trader and may as well be trading ETFs, since your REAL cash has just been swallowed up by the black hole of fake fiat.) Fiat currencies must be replaced by some degree of asset backing. So, your strong hands should not let go of your real cash savings until the bad currency (fake cash) falls to earth and is replaced with a proper asset-backed note currency system.
Step 3, when the asset-backed currency replaces the gov-fiat currency, THEN you allow your asset to be officially valued according to this system (that is, insofar as you have confidence in the government's ability to value it adequately). For some, that will mean using their cash (gold) to buy other investments such as land, or art, or stocks, whatever. The cash is real, so you better be using it for real assets. For others, they may want to hang onto these same cash savings, either for retirement or medical emergency or capital expense someday, or just b/c they like banked savings. Some may still keep their gold secret, if they lack confidence in government's ability to value it fairly and adhere to a fair valuation system. So its disposal in an asset-backed currency system is up to you, as the owner of your cash holdings.
Step 4, make sure you and yours, especially your kids, know the difference between cash and government debt promises. Make sure they know enough that the government does not get away with trying to tax your CASH SAVINGS, which of course, is your banked gold.
Step 5, when the asset-backed currency falls back into government control and the government (inevitably) begins trying to dilute it back down to a pure fiat system, avoid letting their "schools" confuse your kids about the difference between real, hard money savings; and speculative investments of any kind; and the worst kind of currency, which is pure government promises printed on notes or issued by computer keystrokes, fake 'wealth' created by counterfeiters out of thin air and backed by nothing but confidence in government's future power to tax. There's a good reason that "full faith and credit" is known as a "confidence" game.
Thanks for writing a thought out response. My questions was real and I agree with all your thoughts about the value of real cash. But I also agree that timing is everything,, and since I have no children, my timing is probably earlier and hence more problematical than most.
I think that they will fight this fight for longer than most think is possible and we will go through a phase where they will try and tax it to death. I am under no illusions, the Fiatistas and Debtistas are in a fight to the death with gold and it still has years, if not decades to run.
I vote for this strategy. It scores on so many fronts. The economy is going down on a large part based on large lies. Demanding the truth and an equal application of the rules will continue to let the thieves hang themselves
Who cares how much gold China has - whatever they have used to belong to someone else. Idiots always assuming he who buys gold is a genius while he who sells is a fool. Just like cash it merely moves from one 'sideline to another unchanged.
That's about the most retarded thing I've ever read. Cunt.
you clearly have no appreciation for the worlds inability to honor its current financial promises
This is the most retarded post i've ever read on ZH.
we'd give you a list, but there's rules against lengthy posts
Bought with what....sold for what'? That is why it matters.
You ever heard the phrase 'Selling the family jewels'?
Wow, neat! An algo that randomly strings words together!
What!? Commies holding gold?
I thought they regarded gold as a "barbarous relic".
I'm wondering what this means for communism, if the biggest commie country on the planet has a secret stash of kruggerands or gold bricks.
Next thing you know, the commie ruling class will be drinking whiskey and driving Teslas.
perhaps you are seriously mistaken.
the commies you are talking about reside in the White House, the Pentagon, and on Capitol Hill.
the ones in Beijing China are some of the best capitalists you will ever know in human history. (some would say they are some of the best capitalists AND communists at the same time).
During the Cold Sometimes hot War, China left tiny Macau untouched because it was their golden door. So yes, ChiComs have always liked gold.
Those commie hypocrites!
I suppose you're going to tell me next that the Chicom bigwigs have Swiss bank accounts and invest in California real estate.
America has more than 150,000+ metric tons of gold....most of which is held on a secret base on the Moon, where it was mined & refined.
Everyone knows that China has substantially increased it's Gold Reserves over the last 6 years, and whatever number the Chinese roll out as their "stated" holdings, will be met with a yawn in the markets. There really is no way of knowing precisely how much gold China has - any more than there is a way to know how much gold the u.s. still holds.
I think it is quite safe to assume that currently the u.s. has much less physical gold holdings than China - not that it really matters at this point.
I disagree that it doesn't matter because the markets will yawn.
Even the pretentious drones of the financial world will start to see where the game is going. Oh, a lot of the reaction among them, at least publicly will be "So what? China has 5,000 tons of gold. Big deal. It doesn't pay a dividend like this great Amazon stock I have all my clients in!" But behind the scenes the bright ones among them will feel the ground shifting under their feet. They'll see that China isn't going to stop at some number lower than the fake U.S. holdings total. And they'll realize that, around the world, other countries will see where this is going.
I don't think the whole change will be instantaneous though there should be some immediate effect. I could see the usual gold cartel monkeys being more fraudulent than ever to hold things back initially. I wouldn't be surprised if they find out when the announcement is going to be made and try to sucker spec shorts into the comex as much as possible right before it.
I wouldn't be surprised if they find out when the announcement is going to be made and try to sucker spec shorts into the comex as much as possible right before it.
I am thinking along the same lines. I'd say the chance of huge overnight dump to shake out all the longs would be in order as well.
Is that a different girl on the Chinese gold stock photo?
"previous metal" haha... Freudian slip? Before it goes up it will come down. Why would China want the price to go higher if it continues to accumulate? Better to keep the USD high and sell off the Treasuries and buy into the coming collapse in price to sub $500. Having said that, they may get a surprise on the other side when it doesn't rise past $1000 for another decade or two.
China hasn't declared yet because they haven't finished plating all the tungsten bars.
what previous metal?
"The Mystery Of China's Gold Holdings Is Coming To An End"
If you traded with a belligerent, bankrupt, and compromised entity who paid with toilet paper, you'd trade that TP for gold, and other things, as quickly as possible.
So, how much gold does China have? A shit load.
Liberty is a demand. Tyranny is submission.
Zion stole the world, and China ended up with it.
china mines gold and only sells a small fraction. then the central bank and it's citizens buy gold as soon as they have the paper for it, going lavish with it in some spots. and to add insult to injury, they are also converting fx reserves into physical gold.
all the while fueling a massive shadow banking bubble blowing stock market ripping force, that is demonishling commodities to the point that it is not even worth it to mine the shit out of ground (for now, supply and demand will take care of the rest). we complain about the fed but china is showing you how you do it... maybe it is easier with communism.
meanwhile, no one truly knows if america still has that 8,000 in gold reserves (it doesn't). if a country has had thier gold held in america, it's gone you are not getting that shit back, not unless the us plunders another horde.
dead man walking or world war comin. there can be no other.
"According to China's National Foreign Exchanges Administration China 's gold reserves have recently increased. Currently, the majority of its gold reserves have been located in the U.S. and European countries. "
"if a country has had thier gold held in america, it's gone you are not getting that shit back, not unless the us plunders another horde."
If the US witholds the gold china holds in Chase's old vaults in NYC, that would be WWIII
Don't forget to count mine.
Money expert, Merrill Jenkins Sr. (M.R.) - T.V. debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGsFK52L0lk (29:56)
Published on Dec 13, 2013
Merrill M.E. Jenkins Sr. (Monetary Realist.), was the author of the book, "Money the Greatest Hoax on Earth". His name was on the original patent for the machine that exchanged paper money for token coinage. He was an inventor and a vending machine operator by trade. Merrill started the Monetary Realist Society in his hometown of St. Louis.
Merrill is featured here in 3 local St. Louis television interviews. The first features a debate between he and an economist from the Federal Reserve, Denis Karnoski. Mr. Karnoski stated that "we fool the public into thinking that they have wealth, when they do not" and that "whatever a dollar is, I do not recommend people hold onto it".
Mr. Karnoski was fired by the Federal Reserve soon after this interview.
Merrill led the tax protest movement in the 1970:s and lectured across the country until his death in 1978
Also relevant is how much gold are in Chinese banks that are owned by the government but are not technically the "central bank" but in reality are still Chinese government holdings.
I hope the Chinese have 8000 tons and they let the IMF do a complete and open audit so the Chinese can then demand the FED must do the same. Pricks won't do it for allow us to audit them but they might do it for the Chicoms if they get waterboarded.
If gold didn't matter then soveriegn PM hodlings would not be secreted like the number of nukes a country has.
What is most interesting is " Who are they buying it from ? "
I presume US citizens might be pissed off if their gold was sold to support the fiat fairy tale
"While the metal is no longer used to back paper money"
It's called rehyprothicated script
OMG the Asian!
I think it would be neat if they announced holdings over 8,000 tons and they will allow an audit, unlike the US.
That would be how to announce the next reserve currency.
So the Bloomturd Brianics posit that 1) China wants in on the SDR Club, and 2) key members of the SDR club have an interest in suppressing the price of gold and 3) that suppression of the gold allows China to buy moar, and they (il)logically conclude that at the super duper SDR cabal conclave all the key parties are going to demand that China publicly updates it holdings, and in the process- screw everyone sitting at that table... I never knew circular firing squads were so chic among the elite.
Irrespective of China's gold holdings, the size of its economy and the CNY share of f/x settlements merit CNY's inclusion in the SDR basket.
the tide is going out and the U.S. is naked...... no 8,000 tons.... all gone to keep poo-poo dollar alive for 44 years.
China? 10,000 tons..... will only reveal 5,000 to world to start.
I doubt the world will tolerate ANY country having 'the reserve currency'. Why would a reserve currency be needed if gold is the reserve? Why give that power, that 'exorbitant privilege' to any one country ever again? I don't think the world will ever make that mistake again. We know how such countries act.
20K+....China hasn't waited centuries to redominate the planet only to announce a measly 5000.
China's moves are slow and calculated. Remember that China told the U.S. in 2008 that by the end of 2015 he Renminbi would be convertable. Only enough gold to achieve that goal, FIRST.
Yep. When they lift their skirt we might see some thigh but you ain't getting the full monty.
Exactly so.
Funny I was thinking in those same thoughts, so here is the original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGBvbrXNjs0
"The Mystery Of China's Gold Holdings Is Coming To An End"
As I stated yesterday*
"China buys, digs and stores tons of gold.
They’ll back their currency with PM, we’re told.
But it’s plain to see by the skeptic in me,
That what China seeks in not to stop a Currency Cheat,
But a spot at the IMF Table, and an SDR Seat." -Kirk
* (Mon, 04/20/2015 - 17:12 | 6012278 Kirk2NCC1701)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/stunned-greeks-react-initial-ca...
If and when China reveals its true gold holdings, I'm expecting something like the 8,000 tons the US supposedly had long ago.
And if the US gold holdings were to become truly known, I would expect them to have fallen well on their way to zero. That's not counting the gold they took from countries they just regime-changed and the gold they trust-breached from countries such as Germany that they were supposed to be safekeeping for.
The West has lost a lot of gold fighting a hopeless war of suppression against the price of gold. And the official holdings reflect none of this.
IMF: So, how much gold are you declaring, Xi?
Xi: All of it.
Hah. If they price of gold fell to $500/oz you would never find any gold to buy, because it would all be sucked up in an instant.
The first time I heard that story was in 2012: "If gold fell below $1500, you won't be able to buy any." The next time was in 2013: "No supply below $1300." And here we are deep into 2015 and gold has problems holding on to $1200. Seems to be plenty of supply at that price around. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
All that gold and Red China is still the world heavweight champ of pollution and folks shitting on the side of the road.
Oh well, at least this isn't a Bitcoin story.
How can one trust any banker who says they have the gold?
I want to print money and buy gold.
China uses 1 kg lots as a medium compared to 400 ounce bars now used.
I suspect that 1 kg bars in future will have the same fiat worth as the 400 ounce bar
40g today = 650 g in future
gold biotches! bullish
What difference does it make, gold is not money, right?
China wasn't the only gold news:
https://twitter.com/JamesGRickards/status/590280136659902464
Russia and India had some action with gold too.
I say they announce 8,001.
You couldn't believe what they tell you they have....no different than Fart Knocks
The strategy is to obtain more gold than the US and domicile it in China.
After that announcement trade between US and China will only be settled in yuan or gold.
Sorry Google. China does not take Bitcoin.
Then China will purchase California.
In 20 years historians will study the insanity of the US giving away its industrial base.
I never really understood the utility of sending the urban intelligentsia out to re-education camps.
But now I understand.
At some point, after the hammer falls and the carriers can't be deployed, a barge filled with ivy league MBAs will take to sea to drop its cargo into the Laurentian abyss.
When did China ever give out accurate data? Don't be fooled. This article is simply full of "hope" and hope kills in finance.
I don't believe for a second that China's leaders would be so stupid as to disclose the country's real gold holdings. Keeping the true figure secret (and low ) is a win-win strategy for China and the US government.
The title of the article is inaccurate and misleading. The mystery of China's gold holdings will continue as long as China has US treas bills / US dollars to get rid of, and there is more gold to be acquired at suppressed price levels (thanks to the manipulations of the Fed, the US Dept of Treas., Wall St., and puppets in Europe & Asia).
If they disclose now then we're further along than i thought.
Everyone assumes that the quantity of US gold holdings is a known or less than what is known. What if the US gold holdings are actually ABOVE those figures? I think the US holdings are far above what is reported.
If they had more they would announce it at the top of their lungs. Somebody has been puking phyzz into this market since '11 at least.
I suspect it is us.
There's a much greater chance that the US gold holdings are zero than there is they have MORE than previously announced.
So why has the U.S. Treasury not audited its gold holdings for more than 50 years?
Simple! You wouldn't be hearing Janet actually yellin' as to why the Fed should not be audited if we had the actual metal. America continues to play musical chairs, and it won't end well at all. Yellin can cry a Amazon River as far as I'm concerned. I'm of the mindset that we have little if any phyzz remaining. Furthermore, even if the US has phyzz holdings, they are likely owned by other nations, such as what Germany wants back.
Considering that I have 10 down votes and one up vote, I think I am correct.
as JP Morgan is taking delivery of millions and millions of ounces of silver... wonder why....
silver market is sooooo small
The next "Bundy Ranch" showdown????
http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/showdown-with-feds-over-right-to-gold-in-ground/
Show me yours,
I'll show you mine.
Stack On
That disclosure will be for mid next month then as they already updated it yesterday.
Everyone knows the PBOC lied the last time they "updated" their gold reserves in 2009 to 1,054 tonnes, with this update likely significantly underreporting their true reserves in 2009, so why should we believe that they will tell the truth just because they have to report this figure to the IMF for inclusion of the Yuan in SDRs? In my opinion, it is far more likely for the PBOC to report a high enough figure for inclusion of the Yuan but to still underreport their true holdings. The PBOC will only report their true gold reserves on their timeline when they are ready and when they feel it best serves their purposes and their citizens.
They might be buying gold as insurance but right now they're not telling any body anything that might lead to an appreciation in CNY. They're likely to devalue down to boost their economy (its working for everyone else, right?).
No it's not, it's capital destruction. You witness it in the US on a daily basis. Buy backs, store closures, margin squeeze etc.
Long Tungsten.
What do the people presently keeping gold capped around $1200 fear would happen if it was allowed to go up to $1300? Or $1400? Will The Powers That Be suddenly lose all their power? Will the .0001 Percent suddenly be plunged into poverty?
SDR is just a mis-direct. The IMF itself is but a stepping stone on the way to legitimazy of the new financial infrastructure. Once established the IMF will be put aside and let to rot or used as some kind of scapegoat by the east to totally dismantle it.
With regards to discloure they can just say 3000 tons and we are on our way. But all P trackers can tell you from their estimations (not blomberg rubbish) that they are indeed in possession of in excess of 10K tons. Say what you will about it being speculations etc, but refiners are telling a very different story to the mainstream garbage.
Either way GOLD/Silver is going to be dominant moving forward.
In addition, the rmb will only play a transitory roll as the Chinese are very well aware of Triffins dilemma.
I urge zhers to read Ferdinand lips to get an overview of what gold is and why it's important in a fair and just financial system of millennia of the past. US history is but a speck in the scheme of things, albeit its contribution during this period you cannot deny.
We should all keep telling ourselves we don't need gold to back paper money while looking at this giant failing pile of shit alternative we are forced to endure. Yes. Governments do need gold to back their forced labor confiscation tickets, or they become worthless whether people figure out what is going on or not.
China's announcement will indeed provide a boost to gold, but that's about it. Without bigger negative real interest rates, World War III or QE4, gold's never going to get above $1,500.
I think they have to announce at least 8K to get serious traction. Furthermore announce a price they will buy substantially above the current market. Otherwise its the same old shit with the paper monkies circle jerking the gold price. They need to revalue gold to much higher levels to generate the collateral needed to reflate their economy. Not to mention to end the U.S. hegemony which allows worthless green paper in infinite quantities to be traded for REAL GOODS. Someone mentioned earlier if they do this it means the current mess is alot closer to hitting the fan..... would agree.
China will come clean, about the same time Obama admits that he is a racist, serial lyuing, homosexual Muslim from Kenya...