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"Greece Can No Longer Withstand The Waves Of Desperate People Arriving From War Zones"

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Submitted by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,

This is an open letter I received from a group of 57 Greek intellectuals, addressed to the EU and America, concerning the waves of refugees (migrants, immigrants) that ‘wash ashore’ on Greek territory in increasing numbers.

We all know by now to what extent Europe has dropped the ball on the issue, and I’ll have much more to say on that soon. I thought it would be a good and respectful idea to let this letter stand on its own, and on its own merit.

The number of refugees trying to make it to Greece was estimated at 30,000 in 2014. It’s certain to be a multiple of that this year. The EU may quote numbers like 150,000 for all of southern Europe for 2015, but in real life it will easily be over 500,000.

The EU has no idea what it’s doing, what it’s up against, or what to do next. Brussels figured if it would just close its eyes, the problem would go away. And even today, after almost 1000 victims drowned last weekend, passing the buck to its weakest member nations is apparently still too tempting an opportunity to resist.

Greece Can No Longer Withstand The Waves Of Desperate People Arriving From War Zones:

Your Immediate Action Is Imperative
 

To:
• The Leaders of all European countries
• All Members of the European Parliament
• President Obama and All Members of the United States Congress


Greece, April 2015

The conflicts in many Middle-Eastern and African countries have devastated life in these regions and made survival uncertain. While the world has been witnessing the horrific decapitations and burning alive of human beings, large scale events are also occurring that can change the history and the fate of the affected countries and the world. Thousands of people, Christians and Muslims, are fleeing the war zones in any way they can; entire families jump into boats hoping to reach Europe, if they do not drown on the way.

Southern Europe is the most accessible, and particularly Greece and Italy. Tragedies in the Mediterranean Sea, with desperate people drowning on the way to Europe, have been happening for a few years by now. But only recently this news reached the United States (US) and every part of the world, due to the extensive loss of human lives, while it is hardly in the news that Greece and Italy have been left essentially with no help to deal with these tragedies.

Greece has now close to a 27% unemployment rate and is struggling to convince her lenders of the obvious: that the economy will not recover by more cuts in salaries and pensions, more mass layoffs, and the sell-off of public assets. Signs of the crisis are everywhere. An increasing number of Greeks are being fed by their local churches. Illegal immigrants already fill the streets of Athens and try to survive by searching the garbage or turn to criminal activities. Hospitals struggle to provide care to all of Greece’s inhabitants. Against this background, the waves of hungry and sick people from war zones arriving at Greece’s ports and islands are growing.

Others arrive by crossing the borders with Turkey, whose government seems to turn a blind eye to this situation, giving the human traffickers free rein. Greece, a small country with a population of only about 10 million, already has an estimated one and a half million immigrants (legal and illegal), and the number of refugees has been increasing dramatically in recent months.

Even hospitable Greeks cannot take care of the refugees. They simply cannot feed and provide shelter in the short-term, or employment in the long-term. Greece is akin to a boat where those aboard are trying to prevent it from sinking, while people who are desperate to avoid drowning appear all around the boat and try to jump in. The fate of such a boat and all of those aboard is sadly predictable.

The European Union (EU) and the US cannot remain observers to this externally-inflicted Greek drama. Steps that must be taken immediately include:

1) Efforts to resolve the conflicts in the Middle East and Africa must intensify. Success will not be achieved if lessons from past mistakes are not heeded. The words “dictator” and dictatorship” do not sound good to our “democratic ears”, but if one has to choose between favoring on one hand, a dictatorship under which Christians and all Muslims live peacefully side and side, and on the other hand complete chaos and devastation, the choice is obvious.

 

2) The Dublin Regulation, according to which the Member State through which an asylum seeker first enters the EU is responsible for the care of the refugee who must be returned to the “Member State of Origin” if caught in another European country must be cancelled or modified. Among other serious shortcomings, it places excessive pressure on South Europe, and particularly on Greece and Italy.

 

Who can honestly say that such a regulation is in accordance with the spirit of fair share of the burden among the EU countries? The Dublin regulation has been criticized by the European Council of Refugees and Exiles, as well as by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. It is high time for changes to this regulation, which will be beneficial to all concerned.

 

3) A number of good proposals have been offered by Ms. Federica Mogherini (European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy) and Mr. Dimitris Avramopoulos, Commissioner for Migration, Home Affairs, and Citizenship. Such are the transfer of Syrian Refugees to Northern Europe and the creation of safe zones within the regions of conflict, where asylum cases and other refugee issues can be resolved.

These proposals must move from the discussion to the implementation phase immediately. Additionally, the US should accept her fair share of these refugees.

The EU and US need to hear the pleas coming from the southern European countries, as well as those of the refugees. The humanitarian catastrophe has reached large scale, with profound and irreversible consequences. Greece is paying a disproportionately high price, although Greece played no role in triggering this catastrophe. The EU and the US have the moral obligation, which is also consistent with their long-term interests, to take the necessary steps to put an end to the suffering of those in war zones, while at the same time preventing Greece’s collapse under the mounting pressure of refugees.
*  *  *

Signatories:

  1. Anagnostopoulos Stavros A., Emeritus Professor, University of Patras, Chief Editor (Europe), Earthquakes and Structures GREECE.
  2. Anastassopoulou Jane, PhD, Privatdozent, Professor, National Technical University of Athens, GREECE
  3. Andreatos S. Antonios, Prof. of Comp. Engineering, Hellenic Air Force Academy, GREECE.
  4. Angelides Demos, Ph.D., P.E., Professor Emeritus of Marine Structures, Department of Civil Engineering Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki 54124, GREECE
  5. Angelides Chr. Odysseas, DIC, CEng, MIET, Chartered Engineer, CYPRUS
  6. Argyropoulos, Yiannis, Ph.D., Principal Member of Technical Staff, AT&T Labs, USA.
  7. Arkas Evangelos  Ph.D. Physics & Th.D. CEO. PHOS Solar Technologies Ltd London, UK.
  8. Aroniadou-Anderjaska, Vassiliki, Ph.D., Research Associate Professor, Maryland, USA.
  9. Baloglou George, retired SUNY Professor of Mathematics, GREECE . 
  10. Blytas, George C. Ph.D. Physical Chemistry and Chemical Engineering. Research Consultant, Royal Dutch-Shell; President, GCB Separations Technology, Founder and Conductor:  The Houston Sinfonietta. Author, The First Victory, Greece in the Second World War, 2009. USA.
  11. Christakis Christofi, General of Cyprus Army (Ret.), CYPRUS.
  12. Cefalas Alkiviadis-Constantinos, Director of Research, National Hellenic Research Foundation, Theoretical and Physical Chemistry Institute, GREECE.
  13. Christou Theodora, PhD in Law from Queen Mary University of London, UK
  14. Dokos Socrates, PhD, Associate Professor, Graduate School of Biomedical Engineering, University of New South Wales, Sydney, UNSW, 2052, AUSTRALIA
  15. Economidis Alexandros, Engineer, GREECE.
  16. Eleftheriades George Savva, OAM, GCSCG, CETr, JP, Retired Academician, Australia.
  17. Eleftheriadou Eugenia, CLETr, CSH, Retired Academician, AUSTRALIA.
  18. Eleftheriou Panicos, Bank customer service officer, GREECE
  19. Euthymiou Pavlos N., Emeritus Professor, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, GREECE
  20. Evangeliou, Christos C., Professor of Philosophy, Towson University, Maryland, USA.
  21. Foutsitzis George, PhD. Ecole Superieure Robert De Sorbon, FRANCE.
  22. Fytrolakis Nikolaos, Emeritus Professor, National Technical University of Athens, GREECE.
  23. Gatzoulis, Nina, Professor, University of New Hampshire, USA.
  24. Georgiadis Georgios, Maj. General (Ret.), GREECE.
  25. Georgiadis Sotirios, Admiral (Ret.), GREECE.
  26. Giannoukos Stamatios, Ph.D., University of Liverpool, UK.
  27. Gryspolakis Joachim, Professor Emeritus, Technical University of Crete, 73100 Chania, GREECE.
  28. Ioannides Panos, Lawyer-Industrialist, Nicosia, CYPRUS.
  29. Ioannou Petros, Professor, Electrical Engineering Systems, University of Southern California, Director Center for Advanced Transportation Technologies, Associate Director for Research METRANS, Director of Financial Engineering Masters Program, Los Angeles, CA, USA
  30. Kakouli-Duarte, Thomais, PhD., Lecturer, Institute of Technology Carlow, Past President Hellenic Community of Ireland, Trustee Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation in Dublin, Patron and Director at Phoenix Project Ireland, IRELAND.
  31. Kaloy, Dr. Nicolas,  Ph.D.(Philosophy), Geneva, SWITZERLAND.
  32. Katsifarakis Kostas, Professor, Department of Civil Engineering, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, GREECE.
  33. Kostas/ Konstantatos Demosthenes Ph.D,MSc, MBA, Greenwich CT USA
  34. Kostopoulos K. Dimitra, LLB.,LLM (International Law of the Sea), GREECE.
  35. Kostopoulos S. Konstantinos, B.A., M.Sc. (Transport Economics), GREECE.
  36. Koumakis Leonidas, Jurist, Author, GREECE.
  37. Kyriakou Georgios, Professor, Democritus University of Thrace, GREECE.
  38. Kyratzopoulos S Vassilios, System Analyst, Voula, Attica, GREECE.
  39. Lazaridis Anastasios, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Widener University, Chester, PA, USA.
  40. Magliveras Spyros S., Ph.D., Professor of Mathematics, Florida Atlantic University, and Assoc. Director CCIS.
  41. Mermigas Lefteris, Pathology SUNYAB, USA.
  42. Moraitis L. Nicholaos, Ph.D., International relations-Comparative politics. University of california, U.S.A.
  43. Negreponti-Delivanis, Maria, Former Rector and Professor in the University of Macedonia, President of Delivanis’ Foundation, GREECE.
  44. Papagiannis Grigorios, Dr. Phil., Associate Professor, Democritus University of Thrace, GREECE.
  45. Papadopoulos Nikolaos, Th., Ph.D., FEBO Emeritus Professor of Medicine, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, GREECE.
  46. Papadopoulos A.P. Tom, Senior Research Scientist and Adjunct Professor, Windsor, Ontario, CANADA
  47. Papadopoulou Maria, Civil Engineer, Ph.D. Candidate, Author, Director of the Institute for the Preservation of Hellenic Culture, GREECE.
  48. Papakostas Stefanos, MBA (Univ. of Texas at El Paso), Ex Professor of the American Colleges in Athens, Southeastern College, Deree College, Univ. of Indianapolis, GREECE.
  49. Pavlos Georgios, Associate Professor, Democritus Technological University of Thrace, GREECE. 
  50. Phufas-Jousma Ellene, Professor, SUNY ERIE, Buffalo NY USA.
  51. Rigos, Capt. Evangelos, Master Mariner, BBA Pace University of New York, GREECE.
  52. Salemi Christina, MSc, Mechanical Engineering, GREECE.
  53. Stampoliadis, Elias, Professor, Technological University of Crete, GREECE.
  54. Tjimopoulou Fryni, Chemist, University of Athens, GREECE.
  55. Vallianatos Evaggelos, Ph.D. Scholar and Writer, USA.
  56. Vamvakousis Georgios, PhD. Engineer, University of Paul Sabatier, FRANCE
  57. Yannopoulos Panayotis, Professor, Department of Civil Engineering, University of Patras, GREECE.
 

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Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:37 | 6025916 SethDealer
SethDealer's picture

maybe the immigrants can work and pay taxes

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:40 | 6025935 AIIB
AIIB's picture

They can pay their taxes with the IOU's they receive as their paychecks.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:43 | 6025959 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

1 way plane tickets to Dresden? 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:20 | 6026002 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Everything happens for a reason.

The Hydrogen Bomb was created. 6 billion multiplying, swarming wogs is the reason.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:22 | 6026196 BoredRoom
BoredRoom's picture

Send them to California, Moonbeam says they will help with the drought problems....although unlike messcans, these folks might actually bathe!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:41 | 6026275 asteroids
asteroids's picture

Not Kalifornia, but Washington DC. Specifically the FED building. Let them see the consequences of their actions.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:20 | 6026449 NoDecaf
NoDecaf's picture

Here's a handy list of names for operation Gladio II. Thanks guys. - Langley

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:08 | 6026711 Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

Great reference. The picture of dear IMF's Christine is a WB7 special waiting to be put on another body...

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:18 | 6026431 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

H-bomb?  How primitive! 

At worst, these 'people' would use Neutron bombs  (kill people, leave the buildings), but most likely they will use advanced biotechnology to cull the herd. 

Plan and modify your bug out shelter accordingly. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:35 | 6026511 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Haha, good to see you here Kirk. Since you're from the future, name a single building in Africa you'd save. 

Hydrogen Bombs it is then.

Also, what alien race built the Pyramids? Because it sure as hell wasn't the people living there now.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:02 | 6026971 hansg
hansg's picture

The people that built the pyramids were displaced by muslims, invading from the arabian peninsula. The people currently living in Egypt are the descendants of the conquerors of the original people, which is also why the country is locally known as "the arab republic of Egypt". After all, you wouldn't have to mention that it is "arab" if that were the natural state of things, now would you?

A small and oppressed minority of the original Egyptians is still alive - the Kopts. You'll know immediately when you enter the Koptic area of Cairo - all of Egypt is a giant waste dump, but that one small part is clean and pleasant...

I'm mentioning all this because this will be the future fate of Europe as well. A small corner of Paris, capital of "The arab republic of France", will be set aside for the "Gauls", and there a small and oppressed minority of descendants of the current French people will be living in constant fear. Same for Germany, Holland, Sweden, etc.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:31 | 6027153 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Up voted! Your long term sight is actually correct. History is full of the displacement of civilized cultures by waves of barbarians. I feel that given current patterns of mass illegal migration, your grim future for Europe is very, very real. Some Muslims in Denmark, a few years ago, created a website "Islamic Denmark", or something close to that. On it, they encouraged every Muslim in Denmark to have babies, as many as possible, they told people to file papers to bring every family member they can find to Denmark. They said Denmark was an Islamic State, only waiting for the day they were the majority. Then they would proclaim the "Islamic State of Denmark" and christianity would end, the whites would be encouraged to leave. This website was forced to close, BUT, it revealed much of what is coming. The Muslims in Sweden dream of the same thing. "The Islamic State of Sweden". Natives encouraged to leave, as they will not be welcome. Even though many of us can trace our genetic line to Southern Sweden over 7,000-9,000 years ago, the Muslims want us out!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:57 | 6027291 Nussi34
Nussi34's picture

Greece is most likely the only country, where niggas would improve the averages for work ethic and education!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 15:08 | 6027340 hansg
hansg's picture

You are in Sweden, I take it? I'm in the Netherlands myself... A great many people do not want to know about this - they fail to understand demographics and its consequences, and foolishly believe our constitution / government / whatever will save us. But a constitution is just words on paper, ready to burn when the majority feels like it. And our government has _already_ rolled over for our new islamic overlords, even though they represent a mere 6% of our population at this time, pandering to them at every opportunity, giving them far greater opportunity and representation than original Dutch people receive (just look at the number of muslims on TV...). 

So what can we do? Any kind of opposition to immigration, islamisation, or even the EU (which seems to desperately want this process to proceed as fast as possible) is met with anger, scorn, ridicule, threats, and violence. Any politician that speaks out is made a pariah (Janmaat, Wilders) or murdered (Fortuijn), and openly stating support for them will cost you dearly.

Leave, then? While we still can? Give up on Europe, all its history and culture, and accept that soon it will be gone because no one thought it was worth saving? What other options do we have? (I'm leaving out "Breivik" here as something too distasteful to contemplate, but realistically speaking I can see more of that happening soon enough...)

As for people not living in Europe - the muslims will not be satisfied with just Europe, you know. They intend to conquer the entire globe, including the part where _you_ live...

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 18:02 | 6027955 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

I wouldnt consider Breikiv as distasteful, rather the opposite, a patriot.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 20:43 | 6028319 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

Your argument that immigration causes demographic problems is fair enough. However you have no right to bitch about it as long as your country actively supporting displacing those people from their native lands in the first place.

Get the Netherlands to withdraw from NATO and then you can kick the muzzies out.

Can't have the cake and eat it too

Sun, 04/26/2015 - 02:32 | 6030677 hansg
hansg's picture

That's bullshit. It's the government that is driving this in the first place - do you think any individual Dutchman, when asked if he wanted some more muslim neighbours, would answer "yes"? Of course not! We all know what problems they bring, but some of us are brainwashed so much that they believe it is all fine - as long as they live in some other neighbourhood of course...

I didn't vote for the people now in power, and I have _EVERY_ right to complain about their policies.

Sun, 04/26/2015 - 05:52 | 6030790 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

So you're happy about being part of NATO? And the imperial adventures? 

The  fact that the migrants leave their country in the first place is because arrogant cunts such as the Dutch go around bombing shit up.

You help Israel steal land in Palestine, and complain there's a call to prayer next door to you.

Can't have it both ways.

Sat, 04/25/2015 - 16:05 | 6029702 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Totally correct! Constitutions are only paper, waiting for a new majority to tear it up!

I am actually in the USA, but of Swedish Parents. Speak fluently and visit Sweden often. I see huge Muslim problems coming very soon. Yet they still open bordes to them, as if we, by being European, owe the Muslim world our land, culture and soon enough our very homes.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 19:26 | 6028153 Promethus
Promethus's picture

Bomb? Just tell half the refugees that the other half are Shiite/ Sunni dogs. Then sit back and let the head chopping begin. When one half wins, repeat.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:01 | 6026035 Dubaibanker
Dubaibanker's picture

Every single country around the world will ban immigration, visit visas, even student visas etc due to internal problems which could be Greece and Venezuela like (bankruptcy) or unemployment (like in Singapore and HK) or for the sake of stability/unemployment both (like in Australia and Canada).

UK and US will do whatever they wish because they have all 3 reasons put together.

For example, HK and Canada have banned immigration in the last 1 year for people with money.

UK and Singapore have doubled their requirements. UK did so in Nov 2014 and Singapore doubled in from Jan 2012 and made rules even more stringent.

UK, Canada and US have already started rejecting student and tourist visas for several countries in the last year or two.

Since 9/11 many Middle Eastern nationals or Central Asian nationals cannot even enter EU or US.

Several desperate EU nations like Malta, Cyprus, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Macedonia etc have opened up passports or permanent residency with investment criteria into real estate called the Golden visa. Most except Malta and Cyprus take upto 10 years to give a passport and that is why almost all applications have been Chinese.

St Kitts passport was banned for visa on arrival in Canada in Nov causing an uproar in St Kitts. US could be the next doing the same although risk has reduced because St Kitts has reintroduced place of birth and previous name, if any, into the passports and replaced all passports issued in the last 2 years without the 2 already under US/Canadian pressure.

While the value of US passport is declining. Not only there are dozens of travel advisories not to visit many countries in the last few years but Brazil instituted a visa requirement for Americans in 2013 and Venezuela introduced visas for US citizens in 2014 (tit for tat, same photos, same fees etc). US passport now allows only 174 countries instead of 176 until 3 years ago to travel visa free. Expect this to keep dropping each year.

Welcome to the fortress world! 

You cannot even move around now in order to change nationality, visit or study, even with all the money in the world.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:42 | 6026282 Salah
Salah's picture

Chinese just buy the largest group of Myrtle Beach (SC) golf courses:  http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/article19310712.html 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:20 | 6026443 InflammatoryResponse
InflammatoryResponse's picture

we've seen this game before.

 

recall Pebble Beach?

 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:07 | 6026707 scattergun
scattergun's picture

I played Pebble Beach when the Japanese owned it. Very businesslike, you had a older Japanese guy in a cart telling you to either speed up or slow down so that you would not see the group ahead or behind you. Appeared as if you had the course to yourself.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:08 | 6026714 Dubaibanker
Dubaibanker's picture

This Chinese lady bought a whole island because she could...http://www.mingtiandi.com/real-estate/outbound-investment/chinese-real-e...

Another richest woman bought one of the most expensive apartments in HK last week: http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150411000040&c...

Chinese have just started...Wait another 3-4 years...they will buy everything everywhere!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 18:05 | 6027963 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

They can't buy DC or the media, that has already been picked up by AIPAC.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:26 | 6026480 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You may not be able to trade up any more, but if you already have a 'Status' passport, you can get a 2nd one from a non-status country, and use it for your Plan B -- should your Plan A become untenable. 

Nature and Chance favor the prepared, and those who hedge their odds and assets. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:05 | 6026699 Dubaibanker
Dubaibanker's picture

True that, Kirk!

However, only 500m people live in EU and about 35m in Canada and 335m in US. Thats about 12% of the world's population. Out of which hundreds of millions are poor or have become poor or do not have the awareness of a 'Plan B'. 

Meanwhile, the option always has been in the past to move from Russia or China or old Eastern Europe to US or UK etc until the mid twentieth century. That has come to a halt. Original immigrants until the 1960's were from Russia, Italy, UK, Germany etc to US. Then it became Indians and Pakistanis as well Chinese etc. Chinese have exploded in the past 20-30 years. Even Spaniards and Portuguese have started moving but due to lcak of full immigration or due to use of work permits due to non availability of immigration status, they are on temporary territory. for example, canada has started a program whereby after 3 or maybe 4 years all work permit holders are forced to return. Malaysia has banned hiring of temporary workdrs in the food sector from overseas. Saudi and Libya have prohibited foreign workers. Immigration is just turning around. Other examples I provided above.

Most such people in the last 50 odd years in the US, have paperwork to go back to by birth countries. that is their Plan B.

Question is: how many smart people from Iran, Syria or Ukraine had made arrangements in the past? Very few. Today, with violence exploding in South Africa or Pakistan, even they are unable to enter US or UK. Now none can relocate. Even US or Uk citizens cannot go back to Syria or Pakistan, for example.

Even US citizens cannot relocate to Middle East (due to wars) or to EU (because of a decade long crisis and worse is yet to come and hence no opportunities).

My point was that it is very tough to even get a Plan B unless you were born elsewhere. Especially in the last 5 years lots of doors have shut down and I see many more doors shutting down in the next 5 years.

Cheers!

Sat, 04/25/2015 - 11:25 | 6029225 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

Agree completely.  

Having a plan B (which starts with owning "vacation" property out in the middle of no-wherels land Germany) is imperitive.   

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:41 | 6025939 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Why bother?  Just have them smash some windows.  GDP-favorable.  If the natives protest, they'll get a-smashing too.  It's a win/win.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:42 | 6025951 Counterpunch
Counterpunch's picture

This was absolutely intentional and part of the ZWO plan, and intended for all Europe and Australia and UK, Canda and US.

 

Barbara Lerner Specter uber alles.

 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:55 | 6026016 daveO
daveO's picture

They used US & moral obligation in the same sentence. What have they been smokin'? Libya was peaceful until the Nobel Peace Prize winning president attacked it. Same for Syria. Egypt was toppled, too. Now, brown hoards for everyone. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:25 | 6026475 813kml
813kml's picture

What the US has done and continues to do is despicable, the most efficient misery machine in history.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:55 | 6026028 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

It's the ARAB Spring!

It's calls Spring Shotting.

We Spring Shotted some folks to Europe after Obama liberated the nuthouse.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:33 | 6027163 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Tony Blair, former British PM, made his primary goal to flood the UK with labor voters. Indians, Muslims, Blacks, any race but white. The face of evil anti-white racism is Tony Blair.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:18 | 6026167 Ethelred the Unready
Ethelred the Unready's picture

Most of the immigratns are from poverty zones rather than war zones.  Extremely high birth rates in those countries prevents the acculmulation of capital.  Without some accumated capital (even a shovel and hoe) provery cannot be escaped except by emmigratioon.  However Europe would be mad to take them in  as the potentail immigrants  number in the 100s of millions.  

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 18:08 | 6027969 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

They are just as mad as the Americans.  They are quickly headed to 3rd world status by letting the 3rd world in.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:23 | 6026426 TheGreatRecovery
TheGreatRecovery's picture

Always and everywhere, there's only so much work to go around. 

P.S. Is that my cousin's boat?  Looks cleaner than ever!  :-)

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:41 | 6025941 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

going per NWO plan, Ghordius knows this is by plan, but he cannot bring himself to make the connection- his angels in .gov are the enemy of western man..they are sharpening knives to eat his liver.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 17:42 | 6027899 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Better a tender useful idiot's liver than mine or yours.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:41 | 6025944 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Moar Blowback from the never-ending woars.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:54 | 6026005 Elliott Eldrich
Elliott Eldrich's picture

"Moar Blowback from the never-ending woars."

Not to mention the never-ending globalism, which not only ships jobs from first-world to third-world countries, it also destabilizes those third-world economies, causing people there to be economically displaced. So what do they do? They leave their homes and try to find a way to make a living in other, hopefully more prosperous countries, where they work cheap and help to not only drive down wages by increasing the supply of labor but also help to drive up prices with increased demand for housing, goods, and services.

It happened here with NAFTA. The minute that abomination passed, the average Mexican farmer could no longer compete with the mass-produced goods from the US, and so they ended up leaving their homes and moving to the US to work for pennies as illegals. And I will never, ever forget or forgive the Clintons for pushing that obscenity upon us; I would sooner vote for Bozo the Clown for President before I'd vote for Hillary, I utterly loathe that selfish, shameless, wicked woman.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:01 | 6026060 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Globalism increases collective prosperity. It doesn't "destabilize those third-world economies;" rather, it creates markets for their goods. The people displaced are those freed from low-value-producing jobs, like the elevator boys were displaced when automatic elevators obviated their need. 

They do not drive down wages in more prosperous countries; they merely return them to equilibrium from their inflated state. To think otherwise is to believe that people in first-world countries inherently deserve higher wages for the same work.

More population = more prosperity, as it increases the size of markets to which you can market and capture economies of scale. Free trade equalizes the playing field. Mexican farmers can't compete because they don't get the agricultural subsidies Congress doles out.

The amount of economic ignorance here is too high!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:13 | 6026134 Elliott Eldrich
Elliott Eldrich's picture

Sorry, but you are simply wrong. Let's start with Ricaro's "comparative advantage" argument, where country A makes some stuff better than country B, and vice versa, so why not trade? That's an idealized argument that makes sense on the face of it, but what about the case where country A makes everything cheaper and better than country B? What happens then?

See, there's a big difference between the economic stuff they teach in the ivory towers, and then there's nut-cutting on-the-ground economic reality that real people get to live with everyday. Globalism does NOT increase collective prosperity, it increases the prosperity of those positioned to take advantage of it, while decreasing the prosperity of those victimized by it, as companies chase cheaper wages and more compliant workplace and environmental protection laws. I've watched the real-world results of globalism for over twenty years now, and I do not like it one bit, never have and never will.

Those who are defending globalism at this point remind me of those who would defend nuclear power in the aftermath of Fukushima. The obvious failure is right here in your face! How is it possible to be able to defend what is so obviously indefensible?

 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:01 | 6026360 Shad_ow
Shad_ow's picture

He is not simply "wrong." He is a fool.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:24 | 6026389 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

cigar engineer

VERY SORRY

but you and many others have learned a (conveniently to some) distorted version of classical political economy.

Clearly, ADAM SMITH’s “INVISIBLE HAND” has been routinely misrepresented as an ECONOMIC hand.
 Instead, it was his altogether overly optimistic “hand” of  domestic loyalty, or sentiment which Smith hoped would motivate the rich to ameliorate the  otherwise systematic ravages of  what he called “industry”.
________________________________________________________

[Adam Smith] warned that if British manufacturers, merchants, and investors turned abroad, they might profit but England would suffer. But he felt that they would be guided by a home bias, so as if by an invisible hand  England would be spared the ravages of economic rationality.
The passage is hard to miss. It is the one occurrence of the famous phrase "invisible hand" in The Wealth of Nations. The other leading founder of classical economics, David Ricardo, drew similar conclusions, hoping that home bias would lead men of property to "be satisfied with the low rate of profits in their own country, rather than seek a more advantageous employment for their wealth in foreign nations," feelings that, he added, "I should be sorry to see weakened."

______________________________________________________
“As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention.

...By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it.”"
Chapter II of Book IV of The Wealth of Nations

[Please note regarding the above quotation, “frequently” connotes happening less often than do the words typically or usually,
 and certainly “frequently” does not mean always.]

Smith says subsequently (chapter III) that "the capricious ambition of kings and ministers has not, during the present and the preceding century, been more fatal to the repose of Europe than the impertinent jealousy of merchants and manufacturers" who " neither are, nor ought to be, the rulers of mankind".

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:53 | 6026614 malek
malek's picture

 what about the case where country A makes everything cheaper and better than country B?

As that is obviously posed as a rhetoric question, you might want to try to give an answer here yourself!

Hint: It does NOT mean country B will be unable to sell anything forever (which is the typical statist's thinking.)

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:32 | 6026244 NeoRandian
NeoRandian's picture

No displaced elevator boy ever shared in the prosperity produced by his displacement.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 17:44 | 6027901 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Holy shit!  The only way to explain this is if you are some kinda priest.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:53 | 6026015 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

oar giving 1st world tech to third world populations and their over-riding need to breed.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:42 | 6025950 optimator
optimator's picture

Greece should give them one of their islands and peacefully fence it off.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:42 | 6025953 G.O.O.D
G.O.O.D's picture

SSDC (Same shit different century)

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:43 | 6025954 BeaverCream
Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:44 | 6025962 Moe Hamhead
Moe Hamhead's picture

SNAP cards for every one of them!

(and 'bama-phones!)

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:44 | 6025964 Omega_Man
Omega_Man's picture

slave labor

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:47 | 6025982 Osmium
Osmium's picture

Soylent Green?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:49 | 6025997 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Mmmmmmmmmm....... refugees.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:04 | 6026079 ILLILLILLI
ILLILLILLI's picture

"Tastes like chicken...!"

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:02 | 6026364 Shad_ow
Shad_ow's picture

Who?  The immigrants or those who make the country actually work by working and being responsible?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:46 | 6025977 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

30,000 refugees hitting your shores has you bothered? Try dealing with 52 million crossing your southern border over the past ten years.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:53 | 6026021 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

The free movement of people is a central precept of liberty. Unless they camped in your driveway, you don't have the right to keep them from coming to the USA. Besides, people = capital, and immigration increases economic prosperity by increasing the size of common markets. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:05 | 6026061 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

cigar has economic theory and liberty on his side..depending on the definition of is IS. what function does a border serve? why did peoples have them and accept them across written history? I am sure cigar can tell us all, so.....? PS strong property rights and no borders one wonders at the mind that holds both as right?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:21 | 6026179 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Thanks for commenting. Borders are like turf lines where competing gangs collect tariffs and protection money. That people accept borders makes them no more legitimate than creationism that is accepted by other people, or property tax to pay for your neighbors’ kids to get indoctrinated in public schools, or monarchs that wage war against other gangs.

 

To see what the economy would be like with fewer people and strong borders, look at feudalism. Travel was difficult and specialization not as advanced as today. Whereas passports were invented long ago to increase the ease of travel, today it is impossible to travel without one. That’s not progress. Yes, more demand for rent raises the prices you can charge for rent as well as the price you must pay for rent. It works both ways. However, more people = more demand for your services if you are productive.

 

The people complaining about immigrants taking their jobs are no more right than union members complaining they can’t charge uneconomical wages to their employer anymore. Their wages were too high to begin with due to economic friction of tariffs, taxes/subsidies, restrictions on movement of people/capital, artificial restrictions on supply through licensing/certification, et cetera.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:23 | 6026199 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

No, dummy.

 

Generally, borders are where one language starts and another language begins (give or take a few miles).

 

I'm guessing you're American, as your definition of a border outs you as one  - no concept of ethnicity or identity that rises above the centuries. It's just about money and jobs, and citizenship/nationality is essentially meaningless because anyone from anywhere of any race or religion could be an 'American'.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:33 | 6026250 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

That is not a very effective definition, as there are many mutually-unintelligible languages in China. Language is a quick way to identify friend/foe instead of looking for whether they are circumcised (christian vs muslim) or whether they are hutu/tutsi, or indian/paki. The dialect difference between swiss german and austrian german and low german is like the dialect between new england and deep south.

Besides, do you truly, deeply believe that some government bureaucrat knows or is effective at determining who has the potential to benefit the country and who doesn't? Let individuals who vote with their spending money decide.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:40 | 6026273 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

My point was that a border is defined by the outer boundary of where a self-similar group of people live, give or take a few miles. Sometimes that homogenous group of people contain isolated pockets of outsiders within themselves. 

It can be a national border. You assumed I was only referring to national borders, but it doesn't have to be so.

It can be the border between Texas and Oklahoma. If you ever confuse an Okie for a Texan, you'll get an earful about it.

It can even be the border between your house (where your family lives) and your neghbor's property (where his family live).

In your version of the world, you would have the right to walk in and out of his house as you please and use whatever you want in his house (and vice versa).

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:56 | 6026338 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

What's Oklahoma? You mean Occupied North Texas?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:58 | 6026349 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

No, the very essence of my argument is that if you don't want a Mexican to be on Parcel A, you are more than welcome to buy Parcel A and keep him or her out. Or gays. Or WalMart. Or whoever you don't want to be on Parcel A. But if you don't own Parcel A, you have no right to keep Mexicans, a gay, or WalMart from buying it and moving in. Neither you nor I own Parcel A, so any Bangladeshi can come and buy it. The more of them come, the higher the sales price you can secure for selling them Parcel A.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:31 | 6026497 TheGreatRecovery
TheGreatRecovery's picture

I agree with that. 

What bothers me is immigrants who flood the job market, pushing down wages, and immigrants who access "free" services and even subsidies that citizens have to pay for with their taxes.

Also, there is a limit to the carrying capacity of any natural system.  Just as you can't set an Empire State Building on top of a 2x4 beam, you can't shove a billion people into the USA and expect its natural systems to keep working.  Instead, what you get is loss of topsoil, decline of fisheries, and drying-up rivers and aquifers like what California is now facing.  Also, you get poisoned rivers, oceans, and soil.  Also, you get higher taxes and more restrictions on personal freedom.  All these are currently-experienced results of overpopulation.  There are limits, and intelligence includes living within your limits, not pretending that the real world is an ivory tower in which limits are not "allowed".  Limits ARE.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:41 | 6026556 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

I don't understand. If neither you nor I own Parcel A, then how can we sell it to aspiring Bangladeshi real estate moguls? If we don't own it then what does it matter how many Bangladeshi Donald Trumps want to buy it?

 

What happens to your analogy if Parcel A is the entire United States, and the government we have is charged with deciding for us the people who live here on Parcel A, who can and cannot be on Parcel A? What if that government just lets anyone into Parcel A? That'd be a pretty shitty government, right?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:50 | 6026311 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

People are not fungible. We are not all the same. We cannot all get along. We are not the world. They are not our children. Sorry to rain on your 21st century demo-globo-libertarian parade. BUT..

The 5,000 years of recorded homo sapien history are quite clear on this. We have borders so we don't have to murder everybody who doesn't look/sound/smell/act/think like us. Sensibly-drawn and mutually-respected borders keep the mass murder to a minimum. You start fucking with that, and you're practically begging for a war.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:01 | 6026357 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

The State is nothing but the collection of individuals in that particular area. It cannot have borders. It doesn't have a soul. It doesn't have free will. It is just a term to describe a group of people.

People are really more alike then they are different. People who tell you otherwise have an agenda. And without soldiers, there is no war. The true enemy is government itself, and not the fairytale of mass murder.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:14 | 6026409 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Riiiiight. So everyone in the Yugoslavian mass-murderthon was a soldier. And that was just a fairy tale. 

Everyone in Rwanda was a soldier. And Rwanda was just a fairy tale.

Likewise, everyone in Lebanon was a soldier, a government agent--sadly, so more alike than they were different.. And yet Lebanon was just a fairy tale, anyway.

These examples are just recent homo sapien history. But wait--There's MORE! Consult a library to futher refute your dumbass, disingenious hypothesis of the fungibility of the hominid lines.

You're far too literate to be this ignorant. Grow up. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:42 | 6026875 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Yes, humans are the worst animals once the blood starts to boil. But humans also have the ability to peacefully coexist with others until the state or power hungry psychopaths decide it's time to take control over evermoar things.

FYI, the war in Yugoslavia was just an episode in one of the seasons of "Arab Spring".

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:57 | 6027089 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Where does the State come from? Outside the people? Is the State made of Robots, or Lobsters, or Martians? There was War before there ever was a State. There was Territory before there ever were maps.

The Modern State is made of the power-hungriest individuals of any particular genetic cohort, and since those genes guarantee their expression in some form of organized, tribally-sanctioned violence, then the long-term peaceful co-existence of different populations in the same geographic area is impossible.

Once again, biology: Red squirrels and Grey squirrels do not coexist in the same habitat. They go to war, and yet, they have no State which orders them to do so. It comes with the genes. It's built in. Same with ant colonies, troops of baboons, pods of dolphins, or any other socially-adapted species. It's how the world works. 

This is why rational people recognized differences and devised borders. It cuts down on the mass murder. Red squirrels over here, Grey squirrels over there, and everybody knows what it means when a Horde of the Other comes streaming across the line. Hands up, Hands out, hands on weapons, it doesn't matter. The Horde is in the wrong place, and everybody knows what's coming.

It is incredibly foolish of the DemoGlob Multikult to pretend that these differences don't exist, to insist they don't cause conflict, and to willfully mix different groups in large proportions. Rivers of Blood, guaranteed.

sic pacem para bellum

Sat, 04/25/2015 - 03:20 | 6028831 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

sic pacem para bellum

 

Zionist chaiwallas and their exceptional right to destroy things in order to save them...

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:32 | 6026504 TheGreatRecovery
TheGreatRecovery's picture

What is a cigar engineer?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:22 | 6026459 HopefulCynical
HopefulCynical's picture

He's not a libertarian. He's an anarchist.

And anarchy is as unworkable in the real world as communism.

And anarchists are as impervious to the facts of the real world as communists are.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:03 | 6026688 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Whether anarchy is unworkable is irrelevant. The true test is whether or not it would result in less misery and more fairness/prosperity than the current system. As we live in a world of alternatives, that is the only standard against which it should be compared.

But the people in power will not allow even a test case to succeed. One of the few markets where anarchy reigns is the dating market — but most people refuse or don't bother to see its benefits or paradigms that could be applied to other markets.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:27 | 6026212 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

What fucking rubbish. Never go Full Retard bro...

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:42 | 6026280 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

That a deadbeat is any more deserving of welfare (regardless of whatever you may think of welfare) than another deadbeat merely on the virtue of their place of birth is insane. If you rage against welfare, rage against welfare, and not against the free movement of people. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:06 | 6026093 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Mass uncontrolled immigration drags on the economy because it drives down the cost of labor and make more people dependent on the state.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:28 | 6026222 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Labor cost is an input cost on goods/services. Your logic is that if we paid $10/gallon of gas, our economy would take off into the stratosphere. Surely, we can all see that is wrong.

Dependency on the state is impossible without the tyranny of forced wealth redistribution.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:47 | 6026302 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

By your logic everybody should be working for free. Slaves kept input costs down, but isn't that the whole idea of globalism?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:04 | 6026369 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

I have no desire to convince you otherwise; it's the audience reading this whom I wish to win over.

It's clear you are introducing coercion into the equation, as there can be no slavery without coercion. Coercion is the domain and only weapon of government, which I wish to limit. I don't want to need permission from a bureaucrat to leave my country.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:26 | 6026465 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

There is and always will be coercion in human societies. What you are arguing for is anarchy and the bottom line is there will always be some sort of government, the question is what is the best way to constrain it. The free flow of slave labor across the border empowers gov, because those coming across the border are attracted by the free shit the government is willing to buy them off with. The steady flow of immigrants will support the people in power taking from those who produce. Should you need permission to leave your country? No...., but you should have permission to enter another. It's called property rights. I don't just enter your house without knocking first. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:34 | 6026507 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

What makes a citizen more entitled to the "free shit the government is willing to buy them off with" than someone who didn't happen to be born within some imaginary political boundaries? If you rage against the forced redistribution of wealth through welfare, rage against welfare. People who take the risk and effort to move to another country strike me as much more industrious and productive than those who sit still and live off the government dole instead of moving forcefully to improve their lot in life.

Everything outside of your private property (house, warehouse, farm, etc., that you own) is public unless owned by another individual. I can't stop another person born in the USA from walking down my street. Why should I be allowed to stop someone who was born 1 mile away across the border? Are they less human? Are they inherently and categorically worse? Surely not.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:19 | 6026180 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

The right to property and to social cohesion is also a central precept of liberty.

Putting the ideological prattle aside, and just using common sense: you don't see how massive numbers of uneducated, ill-fitting and poor immigrants that the receiving country has no hope of assimilating is a bad thing?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:26 | 6026206 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

It's a good thing. Cheap labor is like cheap gas. It decreases input costs and increaes the efficiency of your business. It is deflationary and helps decrease prices. Why pay $200 for a cobbler to make a shoe when you can increase shoe-making efficiency with production-line labor and sell sneakers for $25? That gives you more money to spend elsewhere.

 

Why is USA so economically-successful? Immigration of labor and large common market. In Poland you can only market to 35 million people, while in the USA your market is 325 million potential customers.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:31 | 6026239 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You're trolling, right?

Not MDB, but not bad.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:37 | 6026263 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Maybe we should start exporting people from the USA to raise wages? If we had half as many barbers and engineers, the resulting shortage would surely increase their wages. 

Nevermind that if i pay more for a haircut or a bridge, that means i have less money to spend at the bakery or the arms dealer.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:15 | 6026395 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I don't know where to start with your whacked theories about nation states, history, economics or just plain common sense and logic.

What has been done to the United States (jobs domestically gutted) is a fucking travesty. You call it a success.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:27 | 6026472 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Blaming the deadweight loss of government bureaucracy and the effects of systematic debasement of currency on immigration has been very popular throughout history. Don't let the corporatists and the thieves in government talk you into believing that the solution is closed borders. It has never worked throughout history. 

That democrats favor immigration to increase their electoral base doesn't mean we must knee-jerk to the thinking that immigration is wrong. We don't own the Earth. We only own our private property.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:35 | 6026257 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

There are plenty of very economically successful small countries. What's your point? For every Poland example you name, I can name a Singapore. Why are price decreases so good, in your view? Look at Netherlands and Germany. They are very successful exporters who stay where they are by moving up the value-add chain.

The USA is economically successful because it started with a great cultural and demographic inheritance (white Western Europe, the world's most dominant technological and military civilization at the time the US was forming itself into a fledgling nation) and it also started with a great, fresh take on political ideology - you know, the whole constitution/bill of rights/separation of powers/democracy thing.

More than anything else though, it has access to a vast territory full of natural resources. 

It also benefitted massively from WW2. Europe and Asia were utterly ruined; by default all power - economic, military, political - accreted to the United States immediately after the war.

I just don't get your quantity of immigration argument. For me, quality of demographics matter way more.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:39 | 6026269 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

The people with the highest propensity to move to a new country are overwhelmingly young. That would benefit your demographic bias. We all know governments are ineffective and destroy everything they touch. Let' not assume that immigration is something at which they magically succeed

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:51 | 6026313 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

I think you misunderstood what I meant about 'quality of demographics'.

Here's a thought experiment for you. It's kind of a contrived idea but just go with it:

You are the massively powerful Ruler of the World. You decide to conduct an experiment. You deport all Japanese from Japan, and replaced them with 100 million Nigerians. There is no desctruction of cities, capital or anything else during the deportation. Everything stays intact.

Do you expect the Nigerians to pick up where the Japanese left off, because they are now physically located in the string of islands known as Japan? Will these Nigerians magically become high-tech and prosperous, exporters of cars and weird porn, builders of robots? Will the Nigerians now start referring to themselves as "we, the Japanese"?

Or will the Nigerians remain Nigerian and all that changed is the place they live? And in 20 years, the nation formerly known as Japan will resemble the place that the Nigerians came from?

What does your common sense tell you?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:53 | 6026325 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Genes don't change when they cross borders. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:56 | 6026339 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

I was hoping cigarEngineer would answer, but: ding ding ding, you win the prize.

Maybe now it makes sense to him what I meant when I said 'quality of demographics'. Up until relatively recently (~30 years ago), the demographic stock of America was inherited from overwhelmingly from Europe, during a time when Europe was the undisputed king of scientific, social, military, technological, economic, you name it, thought and innovation.

 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:07 | 6026384 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Haha that is a great thought experiment. Thank you for posting.

Genes don't change, but culture does. Organizations are free to hire workers who are a good cultural fit. They are free to succeed or to flounder. They are free to teach and invest into workers to change the way they work. 

But they are not free to keep workers who are not a good fit from seeking employment at other organizations. And that's exactly what closed borders do.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:20 | 6026401 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

That's a fair point, but to use your analogy: just because you're a bad fit at your current employer doesn't mean that another employer is obligated to give you a job.

This is what all these refugees are demanding of Europe, and the Mexicans immigrants of America.

 

edit: Genes are what produce the culture. Culture doesn't just magically fall out of the blue sky onto a people's heads.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:22 | 6026458 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

To believe what the media is saying the immigrants demand is to believe that everyone in America is behind Obama, or every Russian is behind Putin.

What I know is that there is surely a similar distribution of socialists and corporatists and anarchists among the immigrants as among the population of any country. Not one of them can speak for the entire group, just like no Obama can speak for every American. 

What is most likely is that those immigrants seek to be free from coercion and violence, just like most of us citizens of our respective countries. I have never had visa or citizenship problems, but I think it is reprehensible that you need permission from a government bureaucrat to work, and without that permission you would be subject to dire violence and kidnapping.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:31 | 6026492 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

You're basically repeating what I already said.

What is most likely is that those immigrants seek to be free from coercion and violence, just like most of us citizens of our respective countries. 

Right, so, what I said: they seek to be free of poverty by demanding that someone else (Europe, USA) give them that freedom (and some welfare benefits to boot).

Just like in your analogy, where you seek to be free of a bad employer by demanding that another employer give you a job so that you can leave the current employer (you can't not have a job/be stateless).

So if you wanted to move to let's say the Phillippines to live, where you would be a stranger, an outsider, it's not your people or your country, you would find it offensive that you would be required to get a work visa?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:40 | 6026546 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Thanks for posting.

My entry into another country does not immediately imply a demand for something, other than unmolested travel. As for welfare, what makes a citizen any more human and worthy of welfare than someone born one mile away in another jurisdiction? Are they less human? Are some more equal than others based on being born in a certain hospital? Surely not.

I can be free of a bad employer whether or not I can convince another employer to hire me. Other employment is not a prerequisite for terminating current employment. I can convince another employer to hire me, and we come to an agreement voluntarily

Yes it is reprehensible to need someone's permission to be able to provide services voluntarily for other people in return for compensation.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:58 | 6026668 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

Please, I beg you, use your brain for a second. What you're saying is that anyone born anywhere on the planet should have the right to get welfare wherever they can find it, if such welfare programs are available. That is utterly absurd. That doesn't work in the real world. Welfare programs in, say, Germany exist to take care of Germany's unemployed/deadbeats, not some random boatload of goddamn Africans. Nations take care of their own! You're goddamn right that in the eyes of the German state, Africans are not the equals of native Germans. Why on earth should they be?

The employment analogy was just an analogy. To keep your analogy internally consistent, you can't not have a job in the analogy. It would be like having no statehood or nationality. That doesn't work in the real world.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:23 | 6026728 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

There are none more equal than others, because none are equal. Equality is impossible. "More equal" is just rhetorical absurdity. Aside from mathematics, there is no such thing as equality. Let's take the realm of biology, to which homo sapiens certainly belong.

Falcons are faster than pigeons. Some falcons are faster than other falcons. Pretending that a pigeon can do a falcon's job is nonsensical. The idea that pigeons sans frontieres will cross a border, mate, and then produce falcons is ridiculous. 

To argue anything from these assumptions (equality is, and equality is good) is to be in error. Of course, since Egalite is one of the defining popular delusions of the Demo-Globo Age, you are in good company.

You are still wrong. 

 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 13:30 | 6026812 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

I keep hoping for some great writer or a popular philosopher - call him the Rousseau of our times - to put out something along this line that strikes a mortal blow at this delusion of equality and begins a new age of common-accepted values, the way that the original Rousseau did in his time. We as a species have been steeped in this Egalite crap for so long that we can no longer see outside of it. It was an original idea 300 years ago, today it's outdated and obviously just wrong.

Alas, modern distractions like Facebook and Twitter make sure that the sheeple are sufficiently distracted to prevent any critical or disobedient thought.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:00 | 6026963 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

I hope for the same thing, the end of this mass delusion-- but Egalite is so widely accepted in the DemoGlob Era because it is so flattering. Every man a king, and every woman even better than that. No matter what they accomplish, what they do, or what level they arise to, they are just as good as anybody else, because Equality. How special. How flattering. How childish.

I doubt a writer or philosopher would retain his popularity after trampling the feeble idol of the masses, and the Ruling Globalists willabsolutely burn him at the stake for impugning their State Religion of multiculturalism.

So to bring this virulent delusion (and its attendant parasites) to end, I hope it will be a Colonel. I suppose the debate must go like this:

A: "So you tink you better than we?"

B: "Yes." [hydrogen bomb]

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:47 | 6026589 Mr. Frosty
Mr. Frosty's picture

"Quality of Demographics"

 

Excellent phrase +100!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:36 | 6026520 TheGreatRecovery
TheGreatRecovery's picture

NO, NO, NO!  The USA is wealthy because its population/natural-resources ratio is LOW.  Americans are more wealthy because there are fewer of them.  And Americans are becoming LESS wealthy because there are becoming MORE of them.  Simple math.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:06 | 6026371 Shad_ow
Shad_ow's picture

Then you don't have the right to keep them from coming into you home.  How many have you taken in?  None?  Then stop with that leftist bull shit.  Sovreign border exist.  Just as your person and family has a right to protect your home and property, a country has a right to defend it border from invasions.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:17 | 6026430 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

The only leftist here in favor of centralized control and rule by force is you, with government control of borders. I am in favor of each person deciding for themselves with whom they wish to transact, whom they wish to hire, and to whom they wish to sell their land/services. You control the borders of your property, right? And you pay the sheriff to protect your property rights against the transgressions of both citizens and immigrants alike. You are merely setting up a strawman and beating it down. I am saying we don't need government bureaucrats deciding who can enter and leave the country.

I am in favor of consensus through persuasion, while you argue for settlement by force — which is the only thing of which government is capable.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:37 | 6026522 TheGreatRecovery
TheGreatRecovery's picture

What is a cigar engineer?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:45 | 6026575 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

My guess is someone who savors methodically the aged tobacco he or she smokes while taking careful observations of flavor and bliss to compare them against expected values. Then, the cigar engineer rolls custom stoogies on the bellies of Carribean virgins.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:01 | 6026959 Monty Burns
Monty Burns's picture

"The free movement of people is a central precept of liberty."

So does that mean that anyone can move to any country he wants?  Can a million Africans move to wealthy Luxemburg (population 500,000) and settle there?  If not why not? Explain your "logic".

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 16:36 | 6027725 Equality 7-25-1
Equality 7-25-1's picture

Not being encumbered against your will by a third party for the obligations of arbitrary others is the definition of liberty. My body, my labor and the fruits thereof are property of the first order. Securing my person and my kin takes precedence over charity to strays, especially ones who have mostly declared their intent to do injury to me and mine. When immigrants exceed 3-5% of the population, all forms of crime increase significantly. Same with population density. You can read all about it on the digital encyclopedia in front of you right now.

Ideology saves you the effort of thinking and verifying. Only on the grid will 3 left turns always make a right. You'll get better results if you think and adapt to the terrain in real time.

This fabrication is the 3rd in this propaganda series this week on this website. No stories about Netanyahu's nuclear threats though. So much media is bullshit all of the time that its hardly worth the time picking through the shit to find the diamonds.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:47 | 6025983 tony wilson and...
tony wilson and saturn zion devils's picture

that 700 or 900 drowned folks on that boat last week.
it did not crash it was sunk.
by who?
why
well camoron says he will send ships to libya.
nato will bomb boats
bollox
bomb libya again and syria
and probably sink boats from the air.
board boats for picknmix for belgium masonic talmud ritual.
machine gun sink the chaff.
refugee is a rabbi year zero slave trade and cull project.
only israhell will be allowed to have histry.
oded yinon
yes sir
nothing better than problem reaction solution.

helping the folks we just slaughtered

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:51 | 6025994 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

-- "They will just be taking the jobs that those 57 Greek intellectuals refuse to do."

Go on US war machine.  Keep fucking over the world.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:50 | 6026000 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

It will not stop until there is a safe haven for Christians in the ME.  So I propose a crusade to establish a Christian state from the Northern border of Israel to the southern border of Turkey, made up of what is now Lebanon and 50 kilometers in from the Med of Syria.  How much more suffering are we willing to endure from the Muslims?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:55 | 6026029 cigarEngineer
cigarEngineer's picture

Moar war is not the solution. The solution is strong property rights.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:14 | 6026147 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

How can you argue for strong property rights while at the same time support mass uncontrolled immigration? Do you not see the irony there?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:17 | 6026162 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

He sounds pretty disingenuous to me.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:51 | 6026004 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

they need waves of troika bankers so they can start sucking dick

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:52 | 6026006 pashley1411
pashley1411's picture

Methinx 400 AD, the Rhine. 

The recepient countries, weakened by socialistic and corrupt goverments (but I stutter), self-hating anti-western ideology, atheism, debt, and even more debt, are going to vanish.    There will be a flag, a national anthem, a soccer team, and nothing else.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:51 | 6026007 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Does Dear Leader accept responsibility for this too? I doubt it

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:55 | 6026023 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

USSA -> War Refugees R Us

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:55 | 6026025 Joe Mama 3
Joe Mama 3's picture

Imagine living somewhere that the teeming hoarde of brown masses can just walk to ???  !!!!!   Boat Ride ???????  Nigga Please !!!!!!!!!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:56 | 6026030 q99x2
q99x2's picture

This message is my action to help the boat people: Go West young men, go west.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:02 | 6026062 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

My message is different.

Fight for what you have where you are. You shouldn't have to migrate. Fight the oligarchs and for your rights.

Just because you move doesn't mean you aren't subject to some oligarch and a corrupt government. So you might as well stay where you are and fight for what is right.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:31 | 6026241 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Voice of reason. Emigration is a crutch

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 10:59 | 6026042 oudinot
oudinot's picture

GREAT JOB IN LIBYA,OBAMA!!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:54 | 6027279 Nussi34
Nussi34's picture

Fellow nigga "helping other niggas"

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:06 | 6026091 RXJ1532
RXJ1532's picture

The best solution practically is to use the immigrants as slaves for about a decade to rebuild Greece to the splendor of the Hellenistic period. Once completed board them on ships and set the auto-pilot to Northern Africa.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 14:55 | 6027281 Nussi34
Nussi34's picture

If the migrants need a decade, the Greeks would have needed 100 years!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:08 | 6026104 youngman
youngman's picture

should be some good fishing in that ocean the next few years..as the fish will be well fed....its just evolution folks..

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:33 | 6026248 tony wilson and...
tony wilson and saturn zion devils's picture

youngman some say one number others say another others ay another
how many died in auschwitz
just askin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEUY2sAyD1E

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:13 | 6026138 MFL8240
MFL8240's picture

If they will all vote Democratic, I am sure this country can take a few million more on food stamps and handouts!

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:18 | 6026173 Wild E Coyote
Wild E Coyote's picture

Can anyone recommend the best launching point to reach Greece from outside EU?

I heard Libya was best place to start for poor people like me looking for some better life as a EU certified refugee. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:20 | 6026187 victorher
victorher's picture

Europeans should show gratitude to Mr Obama for his contribution to a State Of War in almost all North Africa and Middle East. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:27 | 6026211 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

has not one thing to with US. Fuck you

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:27 | 6026215 Darkdoc
Darkdoc's picture

Stay home.

We don't care.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:30 | 6026231 tony wilson and...
tony wilson and saturn zion devils's picture

hey london
hey washington
what happened to libyas gold
what happened to der sovereign wealth fund
how is the rothschild central bank and oil extraction going.
how many thousand of tons of nato depleted uranium did you drop on those kids you where meant to be protectin.
a billion years of genetic mutation on a bank heist
yes
but also multicultralism break up of community.
i believe in romania in the 80s they called it collectivisation.
zionist kaos projects countries as work ghettos for the goy
while the chosen ones make organic hay and thrive on the redrawn maps of greater israel

if i was a rich man yabba dabba dabba dabba dabba dabba da

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:31 | 6026240 kaiten
kaiten's picture

Ship them back to Africa and Arabia. Europe is broke and cant feed them anymore.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:42 | 6026278 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

Hey Greece!

 

How about floating a "humanitarian bond" that you will piss away the proceeds from?

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:47 | 6026300 Ms No
Ms No's picture

We are getting another wave of South American refugees in Arizona currently also. 

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:48 | 6026306 sony1
sony1's picture

So how did a 60ft boat have room for 900 people? These refugees must be magicians imo.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 11:53 | 6026327 HopefulCynical
HopefulCynical's picture

The words “dictator” and dictatorship” do not sound good to our “democratic ears”, but if one has to choose between favoring on one hand, a dictatorship under which Christians and all Muslims live peacefully side and side, and on the other hand complete chaos and devastation, the choice is obvious.
 
Yes, the choice is quite obvious. Chaos and devistation plays perfectly into the hands of the Pharisees, who profit handsomely from chaos and devistation. As an added bonus, it keeps the rest of the world preoccupied with survival, so we don't band together, hunt those parasites down, and rid ourselves of them for good.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 12:01 | 6026358 JR
JR's picture

Is a superpower indifferent to the destruction and misery it creates as it goes about its Empire-building business?

Just read a few of the comments on this blog and you will see what indifference is like; you will see what callous support for a killing nation is all about.

The letter from these Greeks says it all. The responsibility for these tragic lives may rest on the European Union, but make no mistake, the EU only carries water for the United States.

The wars in the Middle East have slaughtered millions, at the orders of the Israeli-US axis. But even so, they have created a worldwide enemy among the peoples who live throughout the Arab lands, primarily innocent villagers whose only interest is to survive and provide for their families.

IF Americans cannot bring themselves to condemn this worldwide man-created catastrophe brought on by their own government’s foreign policy, then let the world condemn Americans.

Fri, 04/24/2015 - 20:55 | 6028340 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

Bravo JR.

 

Apropos article: a diversity of peoples throughout the world merits diversity in forms of sovereignty.

 

http://souloftheeast.org/2015/04/24/ivan-ilyin-on-forms-of-sovereignty/h...

Stop fucking with people's places of living because they have something you want and they won't come flooding into your land.

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