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Germany Prepares For "Plan B", Says Greece Would "Need Not Only A Third Bailout, But Fourth, Fifth Or Even More"
It has been a very disturbing 24 hours for Greece.
It all started during yesterday's surprisingly short, just one hour long Eurozone finmin meeting in Riga, where Yanis Varoufakis not only got the most "hostile" reception yet being called "a time-waster, gambler, and amateur", but for the first time one minister openly said that maybe it was time governments prepared for the plan B of a Greek default. This happened after Jeroen Dijsselbloem slammed the door on Varoufakis' proposal for early cash after partial reforms.
"A comprehensive and detailed list of reforms is needed," Dijsselbloem told a news conference following a meeting in Riga. "A comprehensive deal is necessary before any disbursement can take place ... We are all aware that time is running out."
And so, what was once anathema, namely the official hints that a Grexit is being contemplated at the highest ranks, has now become almost commonplace, courtesy of the backstop provided by the ECB's QE, which has lulled everyone into a sense of calm because somehow the hope has been kindled that the ECB (which is rapidly running out of government bonds to buy) can offset the realization that what was once an "unbreakable union" is suddenly not only breakable, but no longer a union. As such the trillions in deposit outflows that will sweep the periphery are somehow to be ignored because, well, "Draghi."
This continued earlier today, when none other than German Finance Minister Schaeuble hinted that Berlin was preparing for a possible Greek default, drawing a parallel with the secrecy of German reunification plans in 1989.
As Reuters reports, at a briefing with reporters after a tense meeting of euro zone finance ministers on Greece on Friday, Schaeuble was asked if euro zone finance ministers were working on a "Plan B" in case negotiations on funding with cash-strapped Athens fail.
"You shouldn't ask responsible politicians about alternatives," Schaeuble answered, adding one only need to use one's imagination to envisage what could happen.
He indicated that if he were to answer in the affirmative that ministers were working on a Plan B -- what to do when Greece runs out of money and cannot pay back its debt -- he could trigger panic.
To explain his position, he drew a parallel with the secrecy that was necessary during the initial stage of planning for German reunification in 1989.
"If back then a minister in charge -- I was one of them -- would have said beforehand, we have a plan for reunification, then the whole world probably would have said: 'The Germans have gone completely crazy.'"
He is correct, but what is left unsaid is that the mere suggestion that Grexit no longer not being contemplated is a major escalation in Europe's attempts to launch a bank run, which they have done an admirable job at so far, leading to more than half of total Greek deposits being funded by the ECB's ELA as of this moment.
In other words, should the ECB boost the haircut on Greek bank collateral, and both a depositor bail-in and capital controls become inevitable.
Which incidentally, is what was also touched upon today, when the head of the Bundesbank and ECB governing council member Jens Weidmann said at a press conference in Riga, Latvia, that officials will discuss haircuts on collateral for emergency funding for Greek banks.
"As you know I have doubts about the provision of this emergency liquidity, because the banks are not doing all they can to improve their liquidity position, which I would expect from banks that avail of this assistance."
"Instead, they are extending their loans -- so-called T-bills -- to the Greek state, which is each time a new credit decision. As these T-bills aren’t liquid, this means that in comparision with the alternatives, this is a deterioration of the liquidity situation which I find unacceptable."
“The haircuts are designed according to the quality of the collateral -- which in this case is mostly government debt securities -- and that depends on the outlook for debt sustainability which is connected to a successful conclusion of the aid program.”
“From my point of view it is clear: time is running out, the solution cannot come from the central banks, we have a clearly limited task, a clearly limited mandate, and must abide by our rules.”
He, too, is of course correct, and yet his statement is also quite hypocritical, considering it is precisely the check-kiting scheme that Greek banks are engaged in and which the ECB "suddenly" finds objectionably, that has been the norm across Italy, Spain and Portugal for years: all countries whose reform efforst are laughable, and the only reason they haven't imploded in the same pile of rubble as Greece is because the ECB has remained ss a buyer of last resort of their sovereign debt.
For now: because should Podemos or Beppe Grillo take chart in Spain or Italy, all bets are off, and the Greek "contagion", which is really just the realization that there is no ECB bid into insolvent paper, will spread overnight.
Which brings us to the final reason why it has been a very nerve-wracking 24 hours for Greece.
In an interview with Bild, Mark Hauptmann, a lawmaker from German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s political party said that "if Greece stays in the euro, it will need not only a third bailout, but also a fourth, fifth or even more."
He added that a Greek euro exit would be good in the long term because European contracts would regain their validity and Greece could regain its competitiveness.
He, too is correct.
Still, even with three "correct" statements laying out clearly why Greece should Grexit, somehow we doubt that anything will happen even as the posturing on all sides reaches a fever pitch, because while Europe may have Q€ as recourse to a Greek contagion, Greece now has a Putin threat as its final trump card. Because the second Greece is kicked out (or is forced to leave), the construction of the Turkish Stream begins, and with it the cementing of Russian energy dominance for the next decade, as well as the collapse of Ukraine (and the billions of western aid flowing into Kiev over the past year) into irrelevance.
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ai yi yi
Towel Fight, Towel Fight...
who really gives a fuck anymore? The entire universe needs a "bailout". This shit is over...it's been over for decades? Everything is just a Ponzi scheme, plain and simple.
But...there is something that's not fake....something that's actually real.
And right now it's as cheap to obtain as it's ever been in the history of the world nominally speaking.
It's metallic...sometimes gold colored, sometimes silver colored. Both types of these metals are highly valuable once you own them and hold them privately in your own possession.
By contrast, all this "debt" bullshit is just paper created out of thin air by criminal psychopaths.
You be the judge as to what works best for you.
Fuck Greece and fuck all the other criminal goverment scum and bankster scum of this world.
Oh wait...someone's banging on my front door...and I think I hear a helicopter. ;-)
So Greece defaults. Big deal.
Will Germany rescue the Greek banks thereafter?
If the answer is "yes" than this chirade will contine ad infinium if no -- then Greece leaves the EUR.
Eitherway, if this doesn't send capital flight in Greece into overdrive then I don't know what will. Hey -- what do you know -- next weekend is a 3 day weekend here in the Fatherland & its payday next week in Greece!
Who just cashed out his entire paycheck? This guy right here.
"Eitherway, if this doesn't send capital flight in Greece into overdrive then I don't know what will. Hey -- what do you know -- next weekend is a 3 day weekend here in the Fatherland & its payday next week in Greece!"
If anything I would say that any capital which can flee, has fled. The markets look overly bearish (short term) to me.
Now when Italy, Spain and the rest of the PIIGS start hitting that wall, well my friend, that is the capital flight hypderdrive moment.
The banks will happily issue a 4th, 5th and 6th credit card to roll-over payments from the first three.
But do these evil vampires really think they can just keep sucking blood forever?
Predatorial banking. It's why usury is a sin.
Sure there's always a long queue of schmucks, but when we're talking nations there is a limit. It is after all a closed system.
Greece has a problem? No! Germany you lent Greece the money. YOU have a problem.
Funny - the linked charts seem to indicate the only difference with the US and Greece is a CB willing to destroy it's currency...
http://econimica.blogspot.com/2015/04/stocks-or-economydoes-either-represent.html
<-- Plan A - regime change via austerity
<-- Plan B - regime change
Schauble : "When it gets difficult you have to lie".....?
Greece should have played their hand before the German and French banks unloaded their junk on the ECB (taxpayers)
It looks like a Greek problem now.
While I agree with your premise -- there is still more than 160 billion in the Greek banking system.
This is obviously an insane amount of money. People still have faith.
Lastly, "start hitting the wall" -- Greece has been hitting the wall for years now. Its just not getting around to getting its shit together and leaving. We'll see how quickly Portugal goes, which will drag Spain with it, and thereafter its game over.
"There is still more than 160 billion in the Greek banking system."
Yeah but as Nodebt astutely pointed out many weeks ago (advising Greeks to gtfo of the banking system), this has now effectively been fenced off. I doubt we will see much in the way of of big capital transfers out of the banks and things have been at a fever pitch for a while now. I think the market has (probably) priced this risk in?
You could be right though, I agree 100% that your scenario is certainly viable. And yes, Spain, Portugal etc. are going to be carnage one way or another.. There will be big moves when these other PIIGS nations have to be tackled, it could even be the case that the Eurozone just fragments up in an orderly fashion, and fissions into a Northern bloc and a Southern bloc, which (I suppose) would send the Euro strengthening. (Germany, NL and pals vs. the less fiscally responsible southern cadre.)
ALSO something which I have been saying for years, the UK is in a really bad shape right now in terms of debt. With all eyes on the EUR/USD, we might see the GBP start to collapse after the elections next month. The Labor Party (the "more strongly socialist" party) seem to be out to "give the people what they want at all costs", ie: hunt capital to the ends of the Earth, which could spell disaster for their economy too.
Are you asserting there are already capital controls in Greece for large amounts?
Who are the people with 160 billion still in the banking system? Who would be that nuts?
Talk about Greece in the controlled media was conspicuous by its absence over the last two trading days, even as the New York sodomites slapped gold down vertically $15/oz/day in mid-morning trading on Thursday and Friday. They knew this fresh shit would surface, and so held the line at a level where their contracts would close in the money.
PEOPLE OF GREECE: WAKE UP. SAVE YOURSELVES. TAKE YOUR MONEY OUT. GET OUT OF THE EU.
yes, UK is in bad shape ... armstrong is saying that half of municipalities in Germany are bankrupt ... will see i guess
I would say half is an understatment. The problem is these legacy pension costs.
I hope you shitboomers are mentally preparing yourselfs to either live with your kids when you retire, or given that your kids probably never move out, switch bedrooms with them when you retire.
Either or.
Germany is on slow burn, which is definitely not good. By contrast most of the rest of the world is on high heat in a pressure cooker. Even though both are screwed, the failure of some might turn the heat down in Germany. Then again, it might turn it up.
if its correct that they are talking about a 50% increase in taxes to bail out german local municipalities that is not really slow burn ... but again will see how the FROG reacts ...
The UK's one saving grace, was their retention of their monetary policy (and hence ability to extract seniorage from their citizenry). If they were in the Euro right now, it would be the UPIIGS.
UP-IIGS ... that has a good sound ... got to send it to the arabian sea with all the brewing iranian, us naval forces
I'd have to assume (perhaps incorrectly) that anyone with a huge hoard of cash in the Greek Banking system right now, is probably an idiot, or is entirely unable to extract it.
160 billion sounds extremely large, but what is the (median) average size of the account? If you take the arithmetic mean of that figure for the Greek population you are talking about ~14,600 EUR per account. Not a huge amount in the grand scheme, especially if that is an entire lifetime of savings. That 160 billion could just represent your average citizen.
Honestly anyone financially clued up would have shifted their assets out of the bank after 2010. It was obvious that was a bad place to be in terms of risk management. I think even your most moronic ZHer would have known to do so, though I might be underestimating human stupidity here.
I think you are over-estimating your fellow man.
If people couldn't get their cash out we would have heard about it by now. Thus, the only thing I can figure is the country is filled with morons.
Greece is the deadbeat brother who lives on everyone's couch. Lied to get into the Euro, for all the free loans. Now, that someone's fed up w/ them, they're over at Vlad's house angling for his couch.
It's a little more complicated than that, but your masters thank you for maintaining that simplistic view that leaves all the big euro area banks, the ECB, and the IMF blameless. I also leaves out predatory lending, and the fact that almost all the bailout money has been taken from EU taxpayers(at gunpoint, they didn't have a choose), from there it made a brief stop in the Greek treasury, and from there it went directly into the accounts of the worlds biggest TBTF banks. All of this has just been a cleverly disguised bank bailout, nothing more.
I agree with you about the predatory lending - but who is the 'prey'?
These useless, unaccountable, Government bureaucrats.
These motherfuckers make my blood boil.
The just don't give a fuck as long as they can take meetings all day and talk as though they are real workers and continue to get pushed up to the next pay band.
Meh. I am Canadian born of Greek heritage, and spent a few summers in Greece in the early '70s when the military junta was in power. There were capital controls back then (and my parents wanting to get some funds out of Greece had to use black market transportation methods - otherwise known as airline pilots). And during the reign of the junta, life went on (though poitical discussions were frowned upon). And a lot of investment was done by the government in roads, tourism, etc.. As our young PM wanting to be Trudeau said "sometimes a dictatorship is very efficient way to run a government". So even if capital controls are introduced, it is not the end of the world (for the average Greek) and life will go on, and likely better than the current circus!
The FM seems like a good piano player and his wife very pretty and a great cook.
Not invited to all those Parties Fanatastico?
Oh, what a time waster!
Wrong question.
Will Germany rescue the Getrman banks thereafter, and maybe assist in rescueing the other non-Greek European banks?
Yes.
Central Banks lend "money" (binary digits in a computer created with a keystroke backed by nothing) to Banks so they can lend it out at 4.5%-29% to people who then function as slaves.
Once they unhinged money (notes exchangeable for labor) from anything tangible and created it from ether - the gig was up.
They bail out gambling banks and failed corporations/insurers, so why should anyone have to work and why should any banker or C.E.O. or Politician get paid anything?
It's all a lie, and the less money and power you have the more you are lied to and the more you have to struggle to eat the lies and feed the corrupt system of lies.
It's even worse than that. A 5% reserve ration means those funds are loaned out 20 times at 4.5 - 29%. Usury pure and simple.
My dear Dame Ednas Possum:
Reserve ratio ? How quaint. Reserve ratios went out with the dinosaurs. When banks can include government bonds, treasuries, etc. as part of their capital, then there is no capital, only debt.
Your best indicator of where this is all going is when Warren Buffet captures the Kraft Dinner and Ketchup market. That must be a pretty secure forward looking cash flow to Uncle Warren when a gourmet Kraft Dinner and Ketchup meal forms a leg in the Bershire monopoly corral.
Regards
K
ps- It must be a sad day for the chemical business when Warren has found a cheaper replacement for artificial coloring in KD. It makes me wonder- with the collapse of Caterpillar sales, is "Caterpillar Yellow" become the cheaper "natural" alternative. After all, there must now be a glut of yellow spray paint. Nothing slips by Warren...
Ha ha...yeah. Guess I'm an old-fashioned guy.
Maybe Uncle Warren has a contract to supply the FEMA camps when this house of cards comes crashing down.
yup
You can add the labels Malaka (wanker) to the list, if he doesn't offer Greece itself a Vision and a Plan.
As it is, he IS wasting time for everyone, except for himself and his political kind -- who are enjoying the perks of Office.
Some think/speculate the he has a cogent Plan. I strongly suspect that he does not, and is improvising at his game of Greek brinksmanship, wit and guile.
The US already handed over control of more than 20% of the US uranium production to Rosatom, a state controlled Russian company (i.e. Putin) and no one even batted an eye, so what's the harm if the EU finally throws in the towel on Greece? I can't wait to see how the Greek negotiations go with him ....
Tsipras: Please sir, may we have more free shit and all retire at 45 with a full pension?
Putin: Yes, just as soon as you help me dig some holes out in the back yard (i.e. Siberia).
Or just sign the deed over, for all that beach front property. Putin will want something tangible in return. The Euros thought they could simply enslave the Greeks with debt. Oops. Slippery eels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_drachma#Modern_drachma
So long suckers.
https://twitter.com/ArgentusMaximus/status/589250350164639744
Banzai, I see your pics of Hong Kong and the hard working Chinese and I realize why they are now the world's biggest economy and the USA is going down the drain with its self entitled generation.
Cargos full of cash still arrive in Greece to save bankers!
I thought the Ukraine already collapsed
wait wait wait, you mean libertarian marxism isn't going to work????!?!?!
edit: this is what Varoufakis describes himself as, not kidding
he is a marxist with his wife and a libertarian with his villa.
Now I don't exactly know what that means but neither do the marxists. As for the libertarians they only talk to gold nuggets in their sleep. Sweet dreams!
Libertarian marxism?...lol...what the hell is that, expotential growth of an official organ empowering bureaucratic technocrats to force everyones compliance to progressivism?
Here we just call it academia ;-)
Hmmm, having some exposure to Liberal Arts University Culture, I would suggest that it is more like Libertarian Fascism. Academia is a tax and debt fueled pseudo-utopian liberal fascist caste system and what they are in deep denial about is the fact that they are entering an existential crisis. Strong AI will obviate, supplant, and obsolete the insanely expensive brick and mortar edifices they are building with other's money. Like so many grand excesses today, academia is in for a real shit storm when the collapse accelerates with the next significant event.
Major Kong rides the bomb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snTaSJk0n_Y
Gird up ZHers, the game is afoot...
;-D
Libertarian marxism....
The cognitive dissonance required to hold those two terms in ones mind simultaneously exceeds realities boundaries.
Unless of course you're a sociopath (or just plain 'tarded).
A libertarian Marxist is a communist who wants pot legalized, and understands to be called a communist is not a good thing.
Nmewn,
I think it is one of those fusion things you see in the culinary arts sector. Or maybe the concept of male lesbianism is a better descriptor.
Anyway, it's best not to over think it. Try contemplating it while drunk. It helps.
Miffed;-)
lmao...I think all the above hit most of the central elements of what the term "libertarian-marxist" is trying to be packaged as...but for me, the mental calisthenics of wrapping my head around the lunacy of apparatchiks employed by some .gov agency, feverishly searching for law breakers to justify their own existence & paycheck & patronage is what actually drove me to drink...lol.
That and I seek out good reasons to drink ;-)
Remember, you can't spell apparatchik without using " a rat".
I can't tell you how long I have been angry, sad and frustrated by this whole state of affairs. I have come to the conclusion my reactions were just pointless. A great sound and fury signifying nothing all the while the movie played on relentlessly and me tied in my seat powerless to stop it or even look away. You don't know how hard this has been for me as a woman because this in itself meant few supporters or confidants except for men who inherently distrusted me and my motivations.
I must say nonsensical terms as this do have a nice comical relief. That certainly is a rarity and a much appreciated gift in these dark times. Savor it my friend.
Tonight I cook Coq au Vin and garlic red potatoes for dinner in celebration of life and thanks for much needed rain we are having. I will finish the last of my Glenlivet 18 afterwards and sit by the fire. I am grateful for much even in these times we unfortunately find ourselves.
Miffed
Well, its never pointless to express your true feelings, about life in general, governance (or in my case, the defiance of...lol), family, friends, aquiantances, Glenlivet 18 or the miracle of much needed rain on you ;-)
So whats the deal with you, MsCreant & thirst mutilator (who claims to be francis sawyer) you ladies must have scratched him up a bit and he got all pissed off, he was on here every other day ragging on the whole women are pussifying the male world thing...which I thought was ironic...lol.
You know nmewn, I've been at a loss figuring this out myself. I am acutely aware of my faults and accept judgement when they are evident to others but pussification? That is an indignity of which I will not put! ;-)
Frankly I am completely unaware of his motivation to defame both of us. Perhaps we shall delve into his psyche. An unfortunate humiliation while toilet training? An Oedipus complex unresolved? An overbearing mother who castrated a weak Omega father? The possibilities are endless.
Personally I am repulsed by one who can hand out personal insults on an anonymous blog hiding in the shadows. This indicates someone who is living out a fantasy of power when in reality, is a frightened individual who when under any real threat would run to the safety of the underside of the bed. I would love to see him in a real fight club and I am suspicious his true mettle would be apparent. I have lost respect for Francis Sawyer which is unfortunate.
I hope this doesn't come to pass for his sake. A few close associate males have expressed a wish for an opportunity to show him their mettle in real time and my protestations had no deterrent to their resolve.
Knowing you, I'm sure you can relate. ;-)
Miffed;-)
Thats about what I figured, he wouldn't answer me as to why he singled you two out either, there are other ladies who post here, not just you two.
Myself and a couple others saw through it though, under the ruse of making some grand overall point about the splinter in the eye called "women in power" he ignored the 2X4 board of men like Schumer, Boehner, Reid, Holder etc. in the other eye...lol...meaning, he chose you two, so it was your two opinions that set him off.
BoP, Team Depends & I slapped him around a little bit for his trollishness and you are correct, he didn't want anything to do with a mano a mano type situation and the general consensus left is...he is not francis sawyer as francis would fight anyone, anywhere, anytime against any odds.
Well anyways, when I said I would never leave your side I meant it. Pledges and honor mean something to me. And it appears whether said aloud or unsaid at all but generally accepted as fact you have a couple other ZH brothers at arms standing right beside you.
You will never be alone ;-)
Thanks for the perspective nmewn. Your assessment gives me clarity to my resolve and approach in the future and I thank you for this.
I will not be cowed especially by a worm in man's clothing hoping a futile bobbing and weaving with various uses of syntax and character sets can impress and evoke respect for His Great Oz. My reticence in engagement was based in not understanding what he was saying and not sure what to argue. How can one shoot when the target is undefinable? Now I see the topic is a ruse and the man ( I cringe at giving him that label) is the target. Thank you for that. I now see.
To have a man of your caliber by my side is an honor I take to my heart in deep respect. You do not give that thoughtlessly to one who is undeserved I am sure. Rest assured, your gift will never be misplaced. My word is my bond and take that seriously myself. No holds barred defending my friends no matter where it leads.
And I always have your back my Brother.
In friendship always,
Miffed;-)
Yeah I was aware of Varoufakis' writings before he became the Greece FinMin. Not overly blown away.
I've been sent a bunch of the "libertarian socialist" type speeches, conferences, lectures etc. I honestly don't know why humanity is hung up on this "inequality" bullshit. You'd think we had more pressing issues than starting a witch (capital) hunt..
... like a failure of a monetary system* which is fated to fail (as in mathematically inevitable)..
... rising geopolitical tensions..
... serious medium term issues with vital resources..
... rising prospects of a major humanitarian crisis..
But no, let's hunt down wealthy people (and businesses) like wild boars and torch them. Real smart move humanity, real smart move. We can pad the pockets of bureaucrats and non-productive citizens in the process.
*Which would cause a liquidity crisis which is more or less unprecedented.
I like you.
Yeah why get hung up on the 0.1% owning 99% of the wealth in the world?
It is undoubtedly a longer term problem... but it isn't THE pressing issue. The pressing issue are all of those factors above which will lead to unbelievable social unrest, and potentially could cause an economic dark age. Like the fall of the Russian Tsars and the ushering in of a Communist State. Or Europe in the Middle Ages (which lead to rising colonialism and wide-scale warfare.)
People are hunting money at the expense of capital stock, when they should be focusing on worrying about the part of society which is squeezing the last ounces of investment capital out of them (hint: it starts with "G" and ends in "ment").
The private sector has moved leaps and bounds in technology.. probably following an exponential progression over the last few hundred years. That exponential increase in efficiency and hence corresponding decrease in cost is transferred (in the final stages, after profit extraction .. and note there is no profit extraction if nobody can afford to purchase the good) to the consumer. How much technological progression have you seen in the public sector?
Are we automating our governance? Nope. Better systems for anything? Barely except for in tools for criminal infractions and tax evasion. That should say a lot about where public sector priorities lie.
WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN ASSHAT?
Do you suppose that the POLITICIANS (pimps) have anything to do with it?
FUCKING MORON>>>WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING SOLUTION?
MORE FUCKING POLITICIANS?
GODDAMN YOU FUCKERS ARE DUMB.
He describes himself as an erratic Marxist but nice try.
This is getting like Groundhog Day ad nauseum.
Default and get the fuck out of Dodge already.
Greece has done an excellent job in exposing the 2010 and 2012 bailouts as the fraudulent farce that they were, and now Greece is doing an excellent job in exposing the European "UNION" for the fraudulent farce that it is. Bravo.
lol
"Ich bin kein Berliner" applies
nothing new ... move on ...
on other news Dow still 18000, Nasdaq 5000
groundhog day
Pretty fucking simple.
Grexit and the EU thinks that EU QE is gonna mitigate any contagion.
The real contagion is QE.
Yep, when the only tool you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail. The Spice Ponzi Must Flow.
Usul-Greenspan looks to Stilgar..."Do we have Bubble-Sign?"....Stilgar looks back "Greenspan we have Bubblesign the likes of which GOD has never seen"...
Never forgive, never forget.
bail out dysentry !
Sounds contagious !
The Kiev-Athens trade-off is a match between Kiev kebab and Athens Souvlaki.
Who can make a longer QE fed kebab!
The effects on derivatives make it more like weaponized ebola in a busy airport hub.
At first Germany took the "Arbeit macht frei" approach to Greece, bleeding it for whatever labor is possible. Now, when for some reasons the Greeks no longer can work for 14 hours a day on bread crusts after five years....it's "in the gas chamber" you go!
Oh, the evil skullduggery of not loaning any more money to people who obviously can't pay it back.
Greece maintains an incompatible position in that they do not want to go back to the days of chaos associated with the Dreck-ma and will not recognize that the "status quo ante bellum" is not going to work.
They will have to reconfigure their society one way or the other. The EU has actually been pretty decent about helping them through this unpalatable period of utterly-necessary contraction and gets nothing but abuse to show for their efforts.
Greece will never voluntarily leave the Euro but it is increasingly possible that it is going to get kicked out of mom's basement if it doesn't get a job.
Just exactly how do you propose to persuade Greece not to veto the change in law that would be required in order to expel any country from the Euro?
They were a lot better off with the drachma. It's today that the society in Greece is in a state of chaos. They're in an economy that is the same as or worse than the US's Great Depression. Too bad the people in Greece have been brainwashed into worship of the euro.
Lending money to people you know can't pay it back, is fraud.
This is all theatre, whether Greece knows it, likes it, does it or not. It is all designed to distract and exhaust us. When they are ready they will drop the hammer. It is clearly outlined in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: "In the Protocols their goal is: "To wear everyone out by dissensions, animosities, feuds, famine, inoculation of diseases, want, until the Gentiles sees no other way of escape except by appeal to our money and our power." (Protocol 10) - See more at: http://www.henrymakow.com/000782.html#sthash.HC70TMbW.dpuf
Too bad for them and good for us that IMHO Russia isn't going along for the ride.
Read the protocols and see for yourself what they are planning. And I add that GOLD is exactly what they have and want more of.
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/protocolsofsion.shtml
Eastern Europe was liberated by the Russian Army in 1944.
You really think they want them back again?
But, to your larger point about the Jews being in it for themselves, why shouldn't they be?
I just don't see much to abhor in the following Jewish traits: They are a very tradition-minded people. They value family and their co-religionists first, and everybody else second. They don't believe in racking up debt for nonsensical purposes. They work hard and appreciate the value of a good education. They positively will not permit their children to marry morons, losers, and layabouts.
Unlike your grandparents.
Sorry -
I'd rather live in Nazi Germany than in Soviet Russia - for one reason and one reason only.
People in Nazi Germany were pretty well off. People in Soviet Russia were poor as shit.
I think most people on ZH would make the same decision.
and that is why most of people accept the present system, as long as there is cheap pizza and beer. pretty sad to see how cheaply people sell themselves, really.
Sure, but when the choices are as follows;
(space)
a) Live in a dictatorship with cheap pizza & beer
b) Live in a dictatorship with nothing
The choice is actually really easy.
Lastly, your comparison is not accurate as this is not the system we are currently under. The current system is run by complete psychopaths who are hell bent on destroying their own people. The Nazis were run by complete psychopaths who were hell bent on destroying everyone else.
the dictatorship is only possible thanks to the people who enforce it for pizza and beer. otherwise 0.01% who make up present policies would never be able to enforce it.
I think you are understating how a dictatorship works, especially those we are talking about.
it is quite simplified explanation, but it seems to be quite precise. most of people accepting it as long as there is food, Pyramid structured society, with more power and more gains as it goes up. Only if the food runs out those at the bottom go stone age and break everything, and than start building a next one, in the same model.
"those at the bottom go stone age and break everything, and than start building a next one, in the same model."
That's how it was until the balanced Republic under the Rule of Law was achieved. It no longer has to be that way, but forces that lust for power are trying to sweep it away (because unlike everything else, it works - by denying access to power, because nobody can be trusted with it).
“In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” Thomas Jefferson
Seems we are going to have to relearn, just why that is so.
Yeah, I really dislike extremes (in general), but the difference between an extreme right state and an extreme left seems quite clear to me too. The first maintains capital stock, but inequality is an rising problem. The second spreads like rot through the country and snuffs out capital at the expense of equality.
Sorry about your single meal of stewed potatoes a day and having to use a horse and cart to get around, but hey.. the wealth distribution is great. A nation in an economic dark age has no deviation in wealth inequality, because everyone is equally poor.
"the difference between an extreme right state and an extreme left seems quite clear "
Left, right, and other silly labels, are just camouflage for the power grab. Otherwise they are meaningless drivel.
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.” George Orwell
The labels are just bait to acquire useful idiots. Disposable useful idiots.
Democracy, if anything, is a put option on poor leadership. We can hardly act like democracy is the only system of governance which is a good one. It has its flaws too, higher cost of administration, and greater chance of inaction for one.
Whereas I agree that totalitarian states are, most certainly, not a preferable option in the slightest, I do not believe the choice between the destruction of (edit) truly productive* capital stock, and the maintenance of capital stock, is even a political one.
The choice is a no brainer. Do you want to be digging around in the mud and foraging for herbs and berries for food? Or do you want to be at the supermarket?
It really IS that simple. So ultimately if I am faced with Totalitarian State A, or Totalitarian State B, and one will keep capital stock intact and the second will smash it to pieces...
I'll pick the one which keeps capital stock. Every. Single. Time.
The markets have their own "failures", people do, by and large tend to be stupid. Just like democracy, they might "vote" (pay) for the wrong "politicians" (consumer goods) like the Apple iFad, or Facebook. They are not subject to perfect knowledge. No one is omnipotent and knowledgeable about everything. Does Louisiana need more flood defenses in 2027? Who could answer that with certainty. If not, will the private sector fund flood defenses? Probably not. There is a role for the public sector. There is not question, but not in this current incarnation.
Profit in a well educated society**, and a market which hasn't been distorted to high heaven through public sector interference is a barometer. I understand that is not a popular concept in today's society. I know profit is a dirty word. However, please note that as the society slips into malaise, stupidity and ignorance (not naming any countries in particular here) the barometer becomes faulty. Even so, profit margins are probably (one) of the best measures of what is truly productive and where the world is heading. Finance need not be a dirty word, nor should currency, nor should commerce and capitalism. It's the folks hoodwinking the majority into believing that the environment they live in currently has any semblance of a free market in order to continue to extract more perpetually which have given a pretty good system a bad name.
*Not Frankencapital like Government Motors, or TBTF, or the health insurance industry. That's not truly productive capital.. it is zombie capital. Capital which, upon hitting a wall, had money tossed at it which was actually extracted from savings.
**Responsible societies do not do this to facilitate profit extraction from their people. The cost of ignorance is huge. The Germans and the Dutch never did this. They both have extremely good education systems, even if they will ultimately suffer and find an equilibrium with their neighbors as a result of immigration.
"The Nazis were run by complete psychopaths who were hell bent on destroying everyone else. "
They wanted to recover German territories taken from them after WW I, expand east for lebensraum and to expel the Jews from the Reich. The idea that they wanted to destroy everyone else is 1950's comic book stuff.
correct.......the Germans were set up in both World Wars by tribe bankers and the British Empire........
"correct.......the Germans were set up in both World Wars by tribe bankers and the British Empire........"
Complete and utter horseshit.
Hmm somehow got a double post.
When Psychopaths embark on the power grab, there isn't enough power in the Universe to satisfy their lust for it. "Destroying everyone else" is what they do. Islam is no different in this Psychopathic intent.
WW2 was a very close run thing. Do you really think nuking America wasn't on the Nazi agenda? They had already built bombers to deliver them (and tested them to America and back), and were close to having ICBM's for delivering them too.
Yawn.
But even in the best case for them they were many, many years away from having the enriched material to build even one small nuke.
How do you reconcile the internecine violence that wracked the national socialist leadership?
Given a victory against international socialism ( their external enemy) they would have decimated their own ranks.
There was The Night Of The Long Knives when a few of the homos got whacked but otherwise there wasn't anythng unusual. In fact the usual complaint made about the Nazis was that they were all single-minded drones loyal only to Hitler. Remember too that the thirties was a very volatile time in Europe with violent political struggle everywhere.
"I'd rather live in Nazi Germany than in Soviet Russia"
When it's the power grab of a lawless State (the assumption of the proven lie and despotic tyranny of Divine Right, where "The Law is what 'we' say it is"), there is no 'better' option. Both were lawless States by every definition.
When power is available to grab, it always ends up in the hands of the worst of the worst. The Pol Pot, the Napoleon Bonaparte, the Mussolini, the Hitler, the Stalin, the Mao, the whoever, or the whatever.
They consume all wealth on their road to destruction. ALL lawless States inevitably fail, usually catastrophically, and usually with great bloodshed.
Don't go volunteering to be a part of any of them. If you happen to get lucky with a benevolent dictator, well, the lifespan of benevolent dictators, doesn't tend to be any longer than the lifespan of the worst dictators. So don't settle for any of them.
The only thing that works, is a balanced Republic under the Rule of Law. We will have to go back to it.
PS. People in Germany at the end of the Nazis were dirt poor. You could buy a woman for a couple of cigarettes dirt poor. Starving poor. There are no winners with such insanity.
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the Russian army would be welcome back, given how German rule has worked out.
But yes. I wish the Jews really did rule the world. It would be happier, more prosperous and much less indebted than it actually is.
Oh how cute.
Riddle me this... then why isn't the world happier, more prosperous and much less indebited than it actually is?
Because there is no doubting that the Yids do run the show.
Why the uncalled for personal insults to the man's family? Can't handle a fair debate?
You piece of shit. (That was called for).
it s because the standards of trolls we get here these days have gone down, we used to have such a live ones like MDB.
I don't know if MDB is irony at its best or the work of a deluded fool, bought and paid for with the tax dollars of the common man.
that is what makes him/her one of the best
Sure, and put 10 or 20 alike into a board and it turns from a serious exchange of thoughts into an echo chamber of meaningless fake... just like certain psychopaths prefer it to be!
MDB was classice satire, sometimes off the mark humor wise, but more often than not funny as hell.
I miss him/her.
If you can get more than a handful of Eastern Europeans to agree that they were 'liberated' by the Red Army I'll give you a personally autographed picture of myself. You don't really believe that shite, do you?
Yes, Jews do have the characteristics you mention and are in addition highly intelligent. The problem is they've taken over, to a greater or lesser degree, and by ruthless deployment of the ethnic cohesion you refer to, the financial, media, political and education systems of every Western country. The real problem is that they use this power to f*ck the rest of us over. Pissing down our backs and telling us it's raining.
I really wish this were not the case but it surely is. Oy vey!
LOL, they must have takne notes from some of the Girlfriends I've dated years ago: Wear 'him out with emotional and financial exhaustion, when I was merely looking for physical exhaustion with them.
OTOH, as every married man knows, the long Honey-Do List is backed by the same principles and tactics of Guile & Exhaustion wives use, to beat their men into compliance. ;-) ;-)
i'm tired of this talkin' shit with Greece and Germany. A pox on both their houses.
The interesting question[for me] is post exit:
What will the Greek sheeple do when they find out just how much their standard of living is going to drop from its current abysmal low?
Talk 'bout bankers and politicians hanging from lamp posts and blood in the street. Just wait.
hairball
Or, think about how pissed they will be @ the EU, EMZ, PASOK & ND when they realize how quickly they can bounce back with their own mentary policy and the backing of the Russian Federation.
Death to the European Union, the European Monetary Union, or any company with the word "Euro" as part of its name or title.
There would definitely be a period of turmoil while a new monetary system gets sorted out. However, Greek gov't should be able to quell unrest by assuring the basics of life such as food, water, shelter, utilities, etc. with help from Russia (and China, one has to assume it would be a source of funding from the shadows).
Never underestimate the power of hope in taking charge of one's destiny. The only way life could get much worse for average Greeks is if the EU starts rolling tanks in to collect.
So we're in 1939 all over again.
EU gonna go after Greece before going after Russia to freeze in the snow like morons?
Excellent.
I see the Hegelian dialectic playing out.
The Marxists will ballyhoo but ultimately see the mass starvation of their people in Greece. They'll take the blame and the " right" wing will swoop in to fix it.
I'm American, so the European parlance of right/left pisses me off. Their right wing are just nationalists. They all succumbed to socialist fairy tales long ago. National versus international socialism is the only war occurring. The national socialists in Iraq and Syria are being attacked by international socialist movements. Make no mistake, Islam is socialism.
Greece must be stimulated to act. If their people won't rally to marching fields for giant speeches, if they stay in their status quo the pain will necessarily need to increase.
What on earth will they take? The Germans already made off with the good stuff from antiquity.
I'm tired of BOTH sides: the Euro-Bankers and their fiat Ponzi, and the Greeks with their Euro-Wankers games.
Something tells me Greek vacations will become very cheap, but you will need a bodyguard if you are German or a Banker.
that Something might be wrong.
really, average greeks understand this is business, the country has done its mileages around the block ...
no hard feelings on germans or turks for that matter.... just business, nothing personal
trying to squueze blood out of a turnip, this all a fucking joke, they will be meeting 20 years from now talking about the same shit, just so they don't have to write down debt, because if they didbanks would be fucked
And this is the point that seems to get lost again and again: it's not about saving Greece, it's about saving the German and French banks. Check out the derivatives book held by DeutscheBank, and ask yourself if they could survive even a tiny move towards mark-to-market, let alone a Greek default. Extend & Pretend is their only option, even though it won't work much longer.
This is, and always has been, an EU version of a Chinese fire drill. We have Wolfgang and Yani and Angela and Alexis running around the car screaming, as if the the red light will never turn green.
Sophisticated individuals participating in juvenile behaviour is always a riot.
I still see this as a classic Hegelian maneuver "designed to prevent the EU collapsing from 'contagion,'" on the surface which, of course, will be used to create the mandate they'll use to force through the fiscal union they can never achieve at the ballot box.
I still see Grexit as the ultimate bluff, put perhaps they'll play this trump card in order to generate the contagion fears?
Exactly correct. These sociopathic bankers have already figured out Plan B, and probably Plan C & D. This is nothing but making life as miserable as possible for Greece to make them an example of what the rest of the PIIGS should NOT do if they want to avoid the same fate. It's fucking Hotel California... you can check out, but you can never leave. It's all about containing contagion as you say at this point. But you can bet, if that fails. the next steps will be for the bankers to simply tell the EU lawmakers to change the rules so contagion can't materialize. Just like they changed TARP to fund bailouts that were never allowed by the law. Just like they bailed in Cyprus. Greece will be no different. The Ponzi MUST continue, so it will, and no damned law is going to get in the way of a banker.
People will hold on to the "Full Faith" until the bitter end. They do not want to be denied their choice to waste it on ski boats or new cars or homes. It will be a bitter pill when it comes time to swallow.
This entitlement thing has gone far beyond the imaginable. It's an infection. I mean my own brother has it and it applies to anything he wants...It SHOULD be his...Where is this crap coming from? What happened to working for your money to spend as you choose? Well, maybe that's not going to well at present but does that mean chuck the whole capitalist experiment? I say a resounding, NO!
Fiat games. Lets see the stacks of new drachma waiting to be issued.
Still no action, as usual.
I am completely infuriated with this bailout nonsense...Don't these people have REAL things to do? Declare a debt jubilee and get on with the things that truly deserve attention and effort....Let the bankers hang from telephone poles...
Just sell/issue some USD paper. That will keep you affloat a while... Till that runs out. Then do it again.
Ponzi economics at work. More BS about bailouts and keeping the plates spinning with ever larger amounts of printing. `
Who are those two guys in the picture?
"We are all aware that time is running out."
Oh just shut the F up. Time ran out a long time ago, it's been extend and pretend over and over. Same fucking stupid shell game, saying the same old shit.
It's past boring. "It" can not be "fixed" it's far to broken, Banksters Inc. has made sure of that!
Does escape in that little boat reveal a part of your survival plan?
the debt was created out of thin air - let it be paid out of thin air.
Fuck the EU, and fuck the NWO/JWO one worlder fascists who simply want to flood it with immigrants, eliminate all differences, and have everyone kneel before a Global Banking Empire wun by an Anglo-Zionist "elite" of people good at lying and committing fraud, but not especially good at anything else.
See that Peter Sutherland, the "Irish" ex-Chairman of the Vampire Squid wants Europe to take a 'humanitarian' approach to the various aramadas steaming across the Med. I have a suggestion: Let him offer his bloated carcass as a boat. That should carry about 500 ill-fed Africans for each trip. If ever a guy sold his soul to the Devil.....
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/mediterranean-crisis-eu-must-protect-t...
This is ridiculous! Hey Greece. Recognize this for what it is - PONZI scheme.
The idea of a Privately owned central bank printing what THEY call money and loaning this ink and paper out with interest is patently absurd.
Close your borders. Rebuild your country. Print your own currency. You can produce what you need and give your people jobs doing just that. I am certain that there is enough talent in Greece to grow your own food, make your own shirts, pants, shoes, etc.
So Europes ultimate question is this:
Do we bailout Europe and devalue std of living and currency?
or
Do we let Greece exit, let the ECB's books blow up, and cementing Russia as energy domineer for the next decade?
That's a hard choice!
The Morons from the EU have just worked out that the Greek debt is impossible to pay . Bailouts only increase the debt don't you understand it ?
Interests on the interest ont the interest on the interest ..........= Moronic excercise
It's all about power and getting their pound of flesh.
Love is in the air
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-3054479/EU-chiefs-brand-Gr...
Love is in the air
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-3054479/EU-chiefs-brand-Gr...
I had a position at risk that the time these comments came out. I almost smashed a monitor.
Gridlock is not good?
Tell that to CONgress.
There's no gridlock in Congress.
The RINO's have revealed themselves once and for all to be shills for that thing currently occupying the White House.
Off with all their heads.
The plan has always been to let all countries default so tptb can swoop in and buy the countries for pennies on the dollar. The banksters have almost conquered the world.
Countries that elect corrupt and incompetent leaders should pay the price for their stupidity.
For the Greek people to have any credibility, they should bring out the guillotine (borrow one from France) and use it on the leaders of the three previous governments.
Once the world sees heads rolling in the street, Greece will have no trouble getting loans.
I'm afraid you would have to behead about 50% of the Greek people to accomplish the "stamp out corruption" goal. A country running on guillotines isn't exactly going to attract foreign capital.
Even more kabuki...
The game being as it's being played out is quite easy to understand.
Syriza is attempting to show a misguided majority of Greeks that whist they (Syriza) mandated that they would keep the Euro,
it is not going to be possible because of the stupidity of the Troika who are still intent on screwing them into the ground.
They should be able to show that the choice is keep the Euro OR keep the austerity.
The Troika seem to think that they can force Syriza to concede defeat of said mandate and opt for another election when
because of the "failure" of Syriza they will be able to oversee the instalation of another ex Golden Sacks puppet.
Varoufakis is at a disadvantage to the professional politicians in the EU in that he hasn't yet learned how to lie, smile and knife his opponents in the back all at the same time.
Long NBG at 1.18. Betting the EU will not let Greece roll into the arms of the Bear.
"It has been a very disturbing 24 hours for Greece." absolutely not. They have nothing to lose but their chains.
As many people have already noted, this is the German banking authoriities tellng the German and French banks that, among other things, this won't be a good year for bonuses. Greece is merely the stormy brat child along for the ride.
So that's it. Schäuble thinks of Greece as a banksters' folly like the GDR, long overdue for its plug to be pulled now it's become more trouble than it's worth and isn't reformable in any meaningful sense of the word.
The difference is Greeks were a nation long before anybody had ever heard of Germans, and they won't surrender their right to self-determination in favour of direct rule from Berlin so easily. If Schäuble wants to annex Greece to Germany, let him send German troops to come claim it.
Berlin isn't even offering Greeks seats in the Bundestag, though the thought of Tsipras heading up Die Linke makes me smile!
(The modern Greek state was partly a folly of Germans in love with what they believed ancient Greece to have been, but that's another story.)