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Why Tesla's Batteries Won't Work For Roof-Top Solar
Submitted by Euan Mearns via OilPrice.com,
In How Much Battery Storage Does a Solar PV System Need? I assumed that the rooftop PV system would generate just enough power to fill annual domestic demand and that the surplus power generated in summer would be stored for re-use in the winter in Tesla batteries. The result was an across-the board generation cost of around $35/kWh. Clearly the Tesla battery storage option isn’t economically viable, or at least not under the scenario I chose.
As Phil Chapman and others pointed out in comments, however, this is not the only way a domestic solar PV system can generate enough year-round power to allow a household to go off-grid. Another is to overdesign the system so that it’s large enough to fill demand in winter when solar output is at a minimum and simply curtail the excess power generated in summer. How does this “no storage” option pan out?
To evaluate the no-storage case I use the same four scenarios as for the battery storage case (Equator, 20, 40 and 60 degrees north latitude) and add another (50 degrees north latitude) to provide more detail. The following assumptions are the same as before:
Household consumption is 5,000 kWh/year.
Household demand is constant through the year at 13.7 kWh/day, or 0.57 kWh/hour.
One assumption is clarified:
The impacts of short-term changes in cloud cover are ignored.
What this means is that I haven’t allowed for an unusually cloudy or unusually sunny week or month. Latitudinal variations in cloudiness are, however, allowed for in the load factors used to estimate generation (15% at the Equator, 17% at 20 degrees N, 16% at 40 degrees N, 12% at 50 degrees N and 10% at 60 degrees N) which are derived from metered panel output data.
One assumption is changed. PV panels are now pointed in the direction that provides maximum winter generation, not maximum year-round generation. To do this panels at 60N must be angled at 83 degrees south relative to the horizontal instead of 49 degrees, panels at 40N at 63 degrees instead of 35 degrees, panels at 20N at 43 degrees instead of 18 degrees and panels on the Equator at 23 degrees instead of zero degrees. The impact is to increase winter solar generation (by 21% at latitude 60N) and decrease annual solar generation (by 14% at 60N) everywhere except on the Equator, where the quirks of orbital geometry generate the opposite effect.
And while I refer to it as the no-storage case there will inevitably be times when the rooftop solar system won’t generate enough energy to meet household demand, meaning that some backup storage will be needed. To supply it I add one 10kWh Tesla battery storage unit, which would be capable of filling demand for at least one powerless winter night, and just in case I also add a 3kW backup gasoline generator. (Fossil fuel backup for a “100% renewables” installation is acceptable. The island of Eigg in Scotland backs up its hydro, wind and solar with diesel generators and the island of El Hierro in the Canaries backs up its wind/pumped hydro system with a 10MW oil-fired plant, and nobody complains).
* * *
Now to the results. We will again discuss the scenarios in sequence. The solar module output data used to construct them are from PVeducation.
Rooftop solar system on the Equator:
Figure 1 shows annual generation from a rooftop solar system on the Equator that is large enough to meet demand at the time of minimum solar generation, which with the panels angled 23 degrees south (or north) relative to the horizontal occurs at mid-year. System specifics are:
Installed capacity: 5.4 kW
Load factor based on consumption: 10.6%
Annual generation: 6,518 kWh
Annual consumption: 5,000 kWh
Curtailed: 1,518 kWh (23%)
Figure 1: Demand, consumption and curtailment, rooftop solar system on the Equator with panels at 23 degrees to the horizontal
As noted earlier, however, this option is actually less efficient than adjusting system capacity to meet minimum demand with the panels pointing vertically upwards (Figure 2). Specifics of this case are:
Installed capacity: 4.0 kW
Load factor based on consumption: 14.1%
Annual generation: 5,263 kWh
Annual consumption: 5,000 kWh
Curtailed: 263 kWh (5%)
This option meets demand with a smaller PV system (4.0 versus 5.4kW) and cuts the amount of surplus generation that has to be curtailed from 23% to 5%. This is, therefore, the option we will go with.
Figure 2: Demand, consumption and curtailment, rooftop solar system on the Equator with panels at zero degrees to the horizontal
Rooftop solar system at latitude 20 north:
Figure 3 shows the data for this case. The 43 degrees south panel inclination generates a double-peaked generation curve with minima at the end of the year and at mid-year. System capacity increases by only 0.1kW relative to the Equator and curtailment is still low at 10%. System specifics are:
Installed capacity: 4.1 kW
Load factor based on consumption: 13.9%
Annual generation: 5,556 kWh
Annual consumption: 5,000 kWh
Curtailed: 556 kWh (10%)
Figure 3: Demand, consumption and curtailment, rooftop solar system at latitude 20 degrees north
Rooftop solar system at latitude 40 north:
Figure 4 shows the data for this case. At this latitude, system capacity has to be increased to 6 kW to meet winter demand and curtailment becomes significant at 33% of total annual generation. System specifics are:
Installed capacity: 6.0 kW
Load factor based on consumption: 9.6%
Annual generation: 7,429 kWh
Annual consumption: 5,000 kWh
Curtailed: 2,429 kWh (33%)
Figure 4: Demand, consumption and curtailment, rooftop solar system at latitude 40 degrees north
Rooftop solar system at latitude 50 north:
Figure 5 shows the data for this case. At this latitude system capacity more than triples relative to the Equator, more than half of the power generated has to be curtailed and the load factor decreases to less than 5%. System specifics are:
Installed capacity: 12.6 kW
Load factor based on consumption: 4.5%
Annual generation: 11,516 kWh
Annual consumption: 5,000 kWh
Curtailed: 6,516 kWh (57%)
Figure 5: Demand, consumption and curtailment, rooftop solar system at latitude 50 degrees north
Rooftop solar system at latitude 60 north:
Figure 6 shows the data for this case. At latitude 60N the winter sun is so weak that 87kW of installed capacity is needed to meet demand, the load factor falls to less than 1% and over 90% of annual generation is curtailed. The fact that 87kW of PV panels occupies an area of over 400 square meters and won’t fit on most rooftops doesn’t help either. System specifics are:
Installed capacity: 87.0 kW
Load factor based on consumption: 0.7%
Annual generation: 65,570 kWh
Annual consumption: 5,000 kWh
Curtailed: 60,570 kWh (92%)
Figure 6: Demand, consumption and curtailment, rooftop solar system at latitude 60 degrees north
* * *
Economics
I estimated capital costs and cash production costs ($US) for the above cases based on the following assumed installation costs, which although subject to uncertainty should at least be in the ball park:
PV panels: $4,000/kW installed.
10kW Tesla battery storage unit: $5,000 installed
3kW Honda generator: $3,000 installed
I estimated generation costs simply by dividing the capital cost by 100,000 kWh, which is the usable power the system will generate assuming a 20-year life. This is of course a very crude way of doing it but it’s the way homeowners with rooftop systems usually look at economics. (My neighbor, whose $9,000 system cuts his electricity bill by $1,000/year, claims an 11% return on investment.) The results are summarized in the Table below:
And Figure 7 plots cash costs against latitude:
Figure 7: Cash generation cost versus latitude, rooftop solar systems
I draw the following conclusions from these results:
1. The no-storage rooftop solar option is vastly more economic than the battery storage option discussed in the previous post.
2. Households in some parts of the tropics can already install rooftop solar systems that will allow them to go off-grid without suffering an economic penalty. The $0.24/kWh cash costs for rooftop solar in tropical latitudes are comparable to what residential users now pay for grid electricity in a number of countries.
3. Latitude places limits on where a rooftop solar system will allow a household to go off grid. The farther north (or south) of the Equator we go the more inefficient the system becomes, until at latitudes of much over 40 degrees the economics become marginal at best and at latitudes much over 50 degrees they become prohibitive (sorry, Scotland).
4. Latitude will constrain the growth of off-grid residential rooftop solar because most of the residential rooftop market is at higher latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere.
But going off-grid with rooftop solar might still be economically-viable if you happen to live in the tropics, right?
Well, not exactly. There’s a hitch.
My solar system:
I do happen to live in the tropics – at latitude 20N in Mexico to be exact – and two years ago I installed 2.25kW of PV panels on my roof at a cost of about $7,000. Since then the panels have operated at a load factor of slightly better than 20%, generating ~4,000 kWh/year. They have cut my consumption of grid electricity from about 4,800kWh/year to about 800kWh/year and reduced my monthly electricity bill from over $100/month to about $5/month (electricity in Mexico is heavily subsidized for low-consumption users). So on a cash basis my panels will pay for themselves in six or seven years.
And by installing a battery and buying a backup generator I could go completely off-grid. Why don’t I do it?
Because it would cost me thousands of dollars more and save me less than $100 a year. It’s far cheaper for me to buy a few kilowatts from the Comisión Federal de Electricidad when I need them than to install storage of my own.
And there’s the hitch. A rooftop solar system may make overall sense if the cost of grid electricity is high enough, but batteries and backup generators still aren’t remotely competitive with grid electricity when it comes to load-following.
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it really depends on whether the utility charges you a premium for time-of-use.
At 60 degrees north the we is not buying it!
I have PV solar here in Vegas, where the sun shines enough to actually make it economically feasible without subsidies (but only since the recent glut of cheap chinese panels). The real economy, however, comes from the utility screwing itself. They offer net-metering (as do most states) at a loss. Details:
I generate excess when not running the A/C....like today, a sunny May morning with bright sun and open-window temps. They buy it my excess generation at full retail, then give it back during peak summer usage when everybody in town is running full A/C. Good for me, sucks for the utility. They are being accused of all sorts of "bad big business" cliches in trying to even this out these days.
They do have a time-of-use rate structure, voluntary, but you'd have to be mad to take it. It drops the flat 0.12/kWhr down to 0.03/kWhr for 8 months of the year. Then, during June/July/August/Sept, it is 0.04/kWhr for 18 hrs a day (7pm-1pm), and 0.35/kWhr from 1pm-7pm. Sounds good, but it is a big money loser for the typical usage profile given the high A/C loading. I fully expect that within 10 years, everybody will be on something similar to this, just because it really makes sense.
At time-of-use, a big battery pack in the house makes a lot of sense, whether you have PV solar or not. You can charge it at night at low rates, then run off batteries during peak A/C time in the afternoon. The PV solar just flattens the curve a bit. Our solar installation was about $20k to put in, and a properly sized battery pack (lead acid) would have been another $10k. I priced it out, but deferred.....but will do so if the utility switches rate structures.
@AC,
Enjoy it while you got it. NM here is at the wholesale not retail rate & no credits. Last year a law was passed that if you were even connected to the grid but did not use any, you're going to get whacked about $45 for maintenance they never do & whine about.
ToU entails that smart meter. You're going to get cancer anyway not to mention many other ways RF makes you ill.
Flywheels.
I am Chumbawamba.
Lol Chumbawamba, I see you got some brains. :D
I was thinking, you can always convert the energy...
I should emphasize that this is all for sunny hot southwest. The economics are totally different if the peak demand and peak generation don't nearly line up. In the northeast, most demand is in the winter, and what little generation they have (higher latitude, more cloud cover, tall trees) is in the summer. Not much A/C use in Boston. Although $10k will get you a battery pack suitable for charge/discharge over a 24 hour cycle, it doesn't do diddly for you on a seasonal cycle. How they ever sell PV panels in the northeast & other such places, I'll never know.
I'm grid tied with a hybrid system and a ton of batteries..... really.... it's a ton of batteries....
Two strings at 48v = 815ah in agm batteries behind a 9kw solar ground mount array..... It pretty much will run everything except the main a/c unit on battery power.... It's not a small house.
I'm happy with it but, it wasn't cheap.
the batteries only kick on when the grid kicks off.
So, the meter outside runs backward all day.... even on cloudy days and runs forward at night.
Automatic Choke, if you do want to upgrade look into the nickel–iron battery or Edison battery, last a lifetime
"I generate excess... They buy it my excess generation at full retail"
Where I'm at, they buy excess for less than half what they charge per kWh.
Yep and Germany is finally starting to figure it out. They have a jillion kwh of THEORETICAL capacity, but in reality means doodly squat. If they had spent the same amount of money building late generation safe reactors such as pebble bed and nuclear salt they would be makin a profit selling to the rest of the EU instead of importing baseload power. They have put their butt in a very expensive crack....
"I assumed that the rooftop PV system would generate just enough power to fill annual domestic demand and that the surplus power generated in summer would be stored for re-use in the winter in Tesla batteries."
Yeah - I remember the first time I calculated our home electricity usage in terms of year-round PV panels and batteries.
Nothing will inform you as to our "energy hog" nature as much as spec-ing out an off-grid home solar set-up.
It really puts things into perspective - especially with regards to what appliances are truly important (Well Pump & Refrigeration - clothes driers and ovens, not so much).
Human power shower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C93cL_zDVIM
Bang Goes The Theory - BBC This massive experiment attempts to power a house for an entire day solely through human pedal power.
Eye opener,
More info: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1232743/How-cyclists-does...
I live out in the country and when we have outages, they're usually pretty long outages.
I wanted my PV array to run my two freezers and my fridge, my lights, microwave and stove ( modestly ).... and have plenty of batteries to store what I can produce and maintain that for an outage that may be months....
I was able to do it but, it was expensive.... it'll cost you about 30k ( after your tax rebate ) to get there...... You're looking at about 10k just for the cost of the batteries if you get good ones..... they're about 550.00ea and I have 16 of them.
What really hurts you in electricity usage are things like water heaters, ( any heater for that matter )... motors, stoves.... oven will burn 5kw when it's on.
Solar doesn't make good sense for everyone... you have to have a south facing roof with a lot of real estate and, I'd never put panels on my roof anyway..... what the hell will you do when you need shingles?
I'm lucky enough to have some property and, I put in a ground mount. It's nice to have no electricity bill this time of year and a very small one the rest of the time....
What a farce this manner of technology is. I understand that many people have nice solar+Big high DOD lead acids are doing well enough.
But this is all so anti-nature....even trying to harness solar electricity like this. Just the embedded energy in the solar PV supply-chain way out-weighs the puny benefits.
We are just not used to thinkiing efficiently. The dogma has us by BOTH ankles, stumbling along burning, exploding, bolting, dying at th ehands of this "style" of technology that dominates today.
Ponder transhumanism and ask, do we fit in our own world?
https://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/where-do-we-fit/
I understand that the new technologies are not fully robust....but damn....but this article is written by a self described "oil guy"....hardly an unbiased view. Next thing you know, we will have government agencies in charge of policy putting out numbers and statistics in their own areas....(oh wait !!)
...but I thought we could burn all of that "clean coal" we have sitting in West Virginia for the next 200 years to make all the cheap electricity we need? The pretty blonde woman on TV told me we could.
TV and Hollywood is for morons. Keep watching.
There may be a time when grid power simply isn't available. A 2 KW off-grid system is the difference between keeping some semblance of modernity periodically or a fall back to pre-industial survival. It is also the most expensive prep and I have yet to get to it.
This ^
Not a problem; I'll be using my "Mr. Fusion" reactor...
The Utes are shitting bricks over roof top solar. Expect the presstitutes to pile on with the bad press.
I know it's in fashion to hate on Tesla here, but hey, there are other than pure economic considerations in real life. I've been fully off-grid, solar and backup generators (the latter rarely used) since 1979, and some of my gear was priced at 6x+ what it goes for now -- but even those 30+ year old PV panels are still putting out - and have already paid for themselves even at $5/watt output (the price of utility power has more than doubled during this time, BTW). I have 4 buildings on campus, two of which are inhabitable/inhabited, and my base load is less than half what this guys begins with. Yes, I have huge peaks - one of the buildings is a machine shop for example.
But you learn how to be efficient when it costs less than more capacity does. Turn stuff off when you're not using it. Use a smaller entertainment display, with led backlighting - and led lights, small rerfridgerator, freezer in an unheated building in the shade and so forth - too much to type here, but you learn how to do well with less. (It doesn't hurt that I'm an Alpha EE). I've even set up a lan of things with wifi back to my shooting range (I have around 50 acres here and it's pretty far out there).
What does it buy? FREEDOM.
I don't have to have a job to pay my electric bill, and in fact my only monthly bill is landline phone/internet. No worres about a credit rating (as if I'd borrow money anyway - I've done quite well).
Your money can be seized as easy as ctrl-x ctrl-v by some .gov goon who doesn't even have to be on the same continent. Gold, well, that's harder for them to steal.
My land, my systems - very hard to steal. Wear body armor, not that it's going to help against a trained snniper on campus. Of no value to .gov who just want liquid cash type stuff they can mis-spend buying votes.
I'd love to have some of his batteries to supplement my aged submarine grade flooded lead acid pile - I could do more energy intensive stuff at night. As is, we adapt to what we have quite nicely - but skip welding at midinight.
I also own that other thing hated roundly here - a 2012 Chevy Volt. And I drive it for the cost of wear on the tires and insurance. Yes, I took the government subsidy - you're a fool not to be in line when they're handing it out. In the unlikely case I run out of battery range on my errand loops - it gets ~40 mpg on "real" 93 octane, no-ethanol gasoline, while being sporty enough to embarass ricky rice racer on the moutain roads where I live.
In the spirit of fight club - Fuck you if you can't take a joke. I'm free, most of you are just whining - but still totally enslaved to the system, mostly. No, I don't make my own solar panels or axe heads. Do you suppose they'll magically just fail if the system does? I kinda doubt that. My assets are largely in things likely to last longer than my own life.
Freedom, people, freedom.
You've demonstrated that a true libertarian is not a 2D or 1-string personality (Only PM and Arms).
One truly needs to become more diverse* (develop Independence and Resiliency) to weather shocks, while remaining flexible and open to opportunities. Real life pragmatism, not dogma, is key.
Thx. Keep it coming.
* This w/e, for example, I took my kids out for a 2hr walk in the Coastal Range, to not only get some fresh air and exercise in a family activity, but to have some fun in finding and identifying edible wild plants in our region. We bought a specific book, studied it and took it with us. We even had Camelbacks, with water, snacks and basic camping/survival gear, to add to the adventure and peace of mind. They had a blast, even though they bitched and moaned at first for their lack of electronic gizmos/toys, and claimed to be 'bored'. After a while they changed their tune, especially when we built a camp fire. Now they want to do it again, and maybe bring some stuff back for a show & tell to their friends.
Opportunities are where you seize or see them.
"Your money can be seized as easy as ctrl-x ctrl-v by some .gov goon who doesn't even have to be on the same continent."
So can your house.
Let's face it:
When the 'real' economic crisis hits, bankrupt governments (Chicago, anyone?) will be taxing the living hell out of real estate; it's the one asset that can't be hidden or moved out of the jurisdiction...
True, but they're already doing it, buddy.
In the sense that if you can't pay for your ever increasing health or elder care expenses, you have to reverse mortgage or sell all your assets, before you get the same help from the Gov -- the same Gov that's giving it to those who never paid into the System (at all or in any significant amount).
FATCA is there to dovetail your Income Tax filings, which are used to qualify you for gov assistance.
If you own an apt or some modest RE abroad, you don't have to declare it, and they can't take it. Ditto for a bit of cash and PM that you store near said property (safely, secretly and affordably), as none of these supposedly generate a Taxable Income.
It's the libertarian way of saying Screw You to the Parasites and Usurpers.
Freedom is a luxury that one pays dearly for.
Lithium ion batteries in a residential setting are a luxury that only a fools pays for.
Wall mounted lithium ion batteries with an Elon Musk markup are a rip off that only a fucking retard would fall for.
Swap out (or add) AGM or VLRAs to the existing flooded bank and save yourself some money.
Even though I am all for going off the grid, I'm also pro mobility, especially in this day and age. Not everyone owns property. I used to, but sold everything, moved and never repurchased. Couldn't go off the grid now even if I wanted, however, being able to pack my bags and relocate compensates for that fact. It is also freedom. I don't have a house anchor. I am not threatened by land taxes and regulations. I can pick and choose. I can change my lifestyle without making investments that would outlive me.
I used to build electric cars. I know all about them. However when I had a chance to buy a limited production run 40-mile range electric car for $8k I turned it down, because I knew I'd be moving around to places where charging likely wouldn't be an option. And I did move half a dozen times since then. Not every unit had allocated parking and even those that did had no outlets nearby. I've seen one EV owner run an extension cord to his Volt from a 5 storey window. Well, if you have to charge a car like that, you're probably better off running on gas.
Having fewer bills or smaller bills - all comes down to time preference. Instead of waiting for the solar roof to pay for itself over 7 years, I could take the same money and generate profit in other ways. I can reduce electrical consumption.
Lived for a long time with no air conditioning, fridge turned off. Eating mostly non-perishables. Instead of heating the house in winter, I had a heated waterbed. The electric bill was absolutely negligible.
Solar panels, Chevy Volt, battery bank and controllers? It all adds up and in exchange for your off the grid freedom it ties you down to a spot. You're still subject to taxes and regulations. I have the money in my pocket that I didn't spend on any of those things and I'm free to move around the country as well as in and out. I got myself a 2nd passport just in case SHTF and the whole country caves in on itself and to me that kind of freedom is as valuable as being able to generate electricity.
No hate towards oil alternatives. Just bringing up the fact that freedom has many flavors.
Super ! Contact me.
Good for you DCF! I went in the same direction and I am happier for it! I have 2Kw Solar System that meets 90% of my core needs during the day. I will expand that this Summer to 3Kw. I use propane for cooking and hot water, I use a small 200 AmpHr Ni-Fe battery bank for buffer and lights. A small 5500 watt gennie for cloudy days to keep everything going at times. I am grid-tied but go off grid during the day. I made some lifestyle changes for example, no microwave when we are on solar, nothing I can't live without. I live in the mountains and this works well. I need to go with a solar hot water system to complete this picture.
I love taking my system down to net zero electric! I love not paying the big bills!!!
Like DCF I am debt free and loving it!
http://vancouver.hackspace.ca/wp/?s=hydro+
Y'all need to get places with springs and do hydro-electric. 24x7 supply, and if you align yourself with the local electric company, (usually an iffy situation) you can sell the leftovers to them for a zero balance in your electric bill.
You need to learn to adjust to new lifestyle, for example at my summer getaway place in Montenegro, there are four indoor rooms and an outside covered veranda. total of 6 120watt 240v lightbulbs. I have a solar collector on the roof that makes 300 gallons of hot water and a water pump that fills a 1,000 gallon tank on the roof. More than enough for three adults and two kids. Only real appliances that draw energy is the refrigerator and washing machine.
There are cheaper and better batteries. PbC offers carbon electrode, higher cycle count and better power characteristics. PbC is much better for home use than Li-ion. Have you considered it?
No link, no joy. Never heard of commercial, life tested PbC. And I do pay attention. Sure, there's lots of interesting "press release science" stuff out there, very little of which ever becomes real. I'd probably prefer a vanadium redox battery, which at least ARE real, but large and complex. Hey, if it's not pushing my car, I care about neither - I've got room. I might make my own.
LiIon has, in general, a heck of a lot less round-trip loss than Lead-Acid...worth it even at a somewhat higher cost. They also are much better at peak loads and charge rates, which sometimes happen with my huge solar panel setup and machine shop load.
I actually use what many would think of a "house battery pack" as a "bypass capacitor" to take the beating - those little few hundred amp hour guys (basically, for trolling/fishing) are easy to lift, cheap to replace, and make my huge sub batteries last "forever" - or well, 12 years so far, and still act like new. Long-life deep cycle lead acid batteries have fewer, thicker plates than the wal-mart trolling batteries - so won't handle peaks well, but live forever. The little guys actually have more plate area, but fall apart every few years. It works, what can I say?
It's been tested all right. That thing takes enormous amounts of energy in time not achievable for other chemistry. It is a lead acid stuff, so density is lower, but otherwise better than Li-ion.
* Gets pom poms out of closet *
Nickel. Iron.
Nickel-Iron! NiFe FTATW!!1!1
Cheap abundant electrode materials. Stupid simple chemistry.
if you like 60% round trip efficiency.
Sad, but true. I've used them, and NiCd as well. They suck for this use. Also, hardly any of the other gear - charge controllers, inverters and so on - like the voltage range those puppies want to run - it's too wide for most of the commercial equipment.
OK, thry this experiment:
Take your Tesla battery.
Cycle it all the way from 100% charge to dead-flat-zero.Then charge it up again.
Do this 300,000 times.
Now measure the "round trip efficiency" and tell me how you like it.
The most efficient way to use solar is to run off grid during the day and then back on grid at night, thus saving your expensive batteries for when you really need them [in a grid down situation].
$50/mo electric bill here operating in this manner.
You live on a giant magnetic turbine covered in dirt and rock with an iron core complete with a positive and negative acting as the north and south poles. Just like a battery. You are literally swimming in energy 24/7/365. Just need to catch it efficiently. Why build something inferior when nature offers something larger, more abundant, clean and superior. And free (high ROI) with minimal moving parts (lower TCO).
How many amps are getting from your Earth battery again?
Depends on the battery it gets stored in doesn't it? It's energy and it's there. Don't be lazy.
Do you know what the hell you're talking about?
Why don't you explain what kind of hardware it would take and how much it would cost to run your house on an "Earth Battery."
It may be theoretically "possible" - but at a cost (and complexity) substantially more than PV, wind, or water systems.
This is why no one actually does it.
Nicoli Tesla called it resonance, and the US government has yet to release the papers they stole from him on his death.
Your own ignorance is on full display when you condescend.
And anybody who bring Nicoli into this discussion clearly demonstrates that they are a whackadoo without the most basic understanding of electrodynamics....
Right along the lines of the nuts that claim the quarternion expression of Maxwells equations hold the secret of ZPE and it is being supressed by choose your favorite boogeyman....
Yeah, but what about that carburettor that gets 160 MPG?
Oh for fuck's sake . . .
Any electrical engineering graduate with a bachelor's degree has access to more functional knowlege of electricity today than Tesla ever had.
Yes the guy was a genius - but he wasn't the second coming of Christ and the state of the art has not stayed stationary since he died.
Does that earth battery require a space elevator? Sounds a bit pricey.
Maybe lightning collection would work. KiloFarad super capacitors could be charged.
1) PV is 100% dependent on oil. 100%
2) Wind is 100% dependent on oil. 100%
3) Water systems are 100% dependant on oil. 100%
Either by manufacturing, delivery, storage or by maintenace, they are all fully dependent on oil.
Just as Nuclear power is fully dependent on oil, with the added problem of fuel being required for the back up cooling systems. Practically the most advanced technology available for power production today is all fully and completely dependent on oil. When the oil fails, and it will. Your first problem will be nuke plants. Not just getting fuel for them, but getting the people that service them to make sure they don't blow their guts out. Doesn't matter either way what happens. If you are on earth, you're fucked. It's all designed to make a profit, kill you and make sure no one in the future ever knew you were here.
Believe me it all costs way more than you could possibly imagine. That's pandora's box in a nutshell. You're all fucked and regardless of whether you want to sit with your thumb in your ass and whinge like a little bitch. The fact remains, there are no other options. This is a hobisian choice at this time. Surrounded with an aging nuclear infrastructure that's falling to pieces from a lack of basic maintanenace. You've got designs already out there that fill the need, there hundreds of them that have been developed across the planet that are functional. And your first choice is to continue fucking around with half ass measures that don't deliver shit. I don't think so. Not good enough, go sharpen the pencil.
http://www.ge.com/
They've got a couple of battery and energy generation technologies in their IP vault gathering dust.
Could that be why Rottenfellar has divested of XOM & TM gave away patents?
Agenda 21 will play a roll no doubt.
Agenda 21 is more a propaganda piece in the delusional hope that some type of egregore would manifest because they are superstitious retards that would trust tea leaves before actually working and obtaining facts. For the stocks, it really doesn't matter what public image they display, they are all owned by the same people once they are listed. I've gone through the process in startups for listing a stock and it's a dog's breakfast of sliding around who owns what and where. But at the end of the day once a company is listed, it is in fact owned and managed by the LENDING facility called the stock market.
Because that's what the stock market is, it's not an 'investment' gallery, it's a privately owned bank that offers the public and private trusts the opportunity to loan companies money to obtain shares based on their profits. Although today a person doesn't even need profits to get a loan.
Right now though it is pure speculation, look at facebook. How is fucking website worth more than the entire argicultural of earth. Something fucky going on there. There is literally nothing holding it up but the central banks owned by the same people that own the stock market and the commodities board that's been jerry rigged to implode eventually. All of them inter-lending into the same 'family'.
Again, doesn't matter if XOM or TM to publicly shake their fists at whoever. They are all owned by the same people because these companies accepted the opportunity for a loan through those facilities. Not a hell of a lot to do about it either, they all paint themselves into a corner and cry foul at how stupid stupid they are.
One could mitigate the inherent shortcomings of solar power and solar power storage by curtailing one's use of electricity, but that's de-growth, so it's right out.
Like the author we are also in Mexico - 19 degrees North. We also have a 10 panel PV system. We have a bidirectional meter. We don't store anything but when we produce more than we consume it flows to the power company who keeps a rolling 12 month credit balance for us. Since installing the system every bill has been less than $3 USD per month (the admin fee). The power company is national and breaks up the country into various zones with different consumption thresholds. We are in the least lenient zone. If you go over the threshold you lose the government subsidy (you go into what is called DAC) and then electricity can become very expensive. We should break even after 6 years.
But I thought the night skool engineering marvel from Tesla was a genius?
There is another way to store energy. What about water reservoirs ? In times of oversupply you pump water into a reservoir, in times of high electricity demand you let the water flow out again, generating electricity in the process. Wih the immense amount of space you have in the US, it can not be too difficult to find a few valleys for that purpose ?
already being done in a few places...not enough, though.
there is a pair of reservoirs in the sierra....Wishon and Courtright.... that work this way. they run them on a 24 hour cycle, i believe.
there is also seasonal pump/dump. San Luis Reservoir near Los Banos CA is a huge valley, normally dry (back (dry) side of coastal range), but it is a storage shock absorber for the aquaduct. they pump water up from the aquaduct to the reservoir in the spring runoff, then drain it back down as the natural flow dries up. huge reservoir when full.
Yeah, we know already.
The only way this makes sense for most people is to figure it the other way around.
First, you have to live below about the 40th parallel, in a place with 200+ days of sun, and preferably at some altitude. You buy enough panels to run the house 8 hours on a sunny winter day. Then you consider buying enough battery to store any extra, so that maybe on summer days you can make it through the night. Winter, even in southern California, you're going to need grid or generator for eight hours or more 100 days or more.
The battery almost never pays for itself, it's all for fun, or something like that. If you go off-grid where the grid is available, it's going to cost you much more than the grid would.
And when they start increasing the tariff for staying grid-connected for just those 100 days, the finance is going to get even iffier.
Solar pays nicely for 200+ days, while the sun shines. That's good news for you and good news for the utilities. Getting beyond that without paying a lot more, just may be thermodynamically impossible. Now, maybe it's WORTH paying more, to have the independence, the renewability, the fun. But it will cost more.
Dirt farmers had old battery tech, failed like first electric cars
The most efficient solar by far is passive
Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket
All these numbers mean nothing. I have solar panels, and if it's very cloudy or raining they generate almost nothing. Because it would rain up to 5 days in a row, or at least be cloudy 5 days in a row, you need to save enough power for 5 days. I use 15kwh a day when I dont use my a/c, up to 40kwh during the summer with the a/c going nonstop. That would mean i would need batteries that could store up to 200kwh. I would actually need more than this, because over time the batteries would be less efficient. Either way, it would be very expensive to get batteries that would store that much and still be reliable for long periods of time.
or just live on less power, unplug a ton of crap for 5 days. Aside from the fridge and WiFi router, I actually don't need almost anything else in the house.
This is a stupid article. These systems already exist using batteries. Notice (s) on the end of battery. No one does it with one marine battery and they won;t do it with one Tesla battery. You get a bank of them. And then you have a professional tell you how many panels you need to get a full charge. You know what is more likely than a battery banking being under charged? Having the charging system turn off, as it is supposed to, because they are fully charged. Or you can be short Tesla and argue with me because you have financial interest in believing nonsense.
If you believe this article, then I say you cannot power your house from the grid because you might only use a single extension cord running from the power line to your house. If you do that it will never work to power your whole house. Therefore powering from the grid is impossible. Nonsense.
I'm sorry, but batteries are stupid as is going entirely off grid just because.
Go solar definitely, but just get a damned generator.
Use the grid as your battery. Sell your excess to the grid during the day, buy it back during the night and on cloudy days. Unless, of course you live in a retarded state where they screw you on this.
I'll just point out how horrifically polluting solar power is. Yes, it seems awesome, those panels on top of your house. However, they require vast quantities of rare earth metals and wickedly toxic industrial chemicals to manufacture.
Far, far better would be to cut off all the idiotic subsidies to solar power and build thorium salt reactors. Safe and, appropriately scaled, cheap.
And, to anyone thinking of buying one of those Tesla batteries, you do realize they are making those to try and bring down the cost of their car batteries, right? If you think you need battery backup, you're better off with lead-acid, or nickel iron in the long run.
If you have 2.25 Kw/p installed for 7000 $ You have been ripped off max. So the validity of your whole article is reduced to shit.
All these comments and not one mentions solar panels that track the sun. You can get an easy 30%+ boost in generated energy. Sure, it'll cost you more in the beginning, but there are various levels of tracking. Easiest is you move the panels manually 2x a year - once to align with summer sun and again to align with winter sun. Hardest is full x and y tracking, which is obviously the most expensive. Depending on your circumstances, you may find buying 30%+ less solar panels is cheaper than building a tracking system.
The gain of tracking can go up to 45-47% . And since this gain situates in morning, evening and clouded moments, it reduces the load on storage, so the total efficiency raises by 40 %.
This is a good article. Thank you. The main point is: batteries and backup generators still aren’t remotely competitive with grid electricity when it comes to load-following. This is absolutely correct and is the main point. All the negative comments are grinding other axes..........
By the way, how much energy does it cost to make a tesla battery? Why does it cost more on chemical battery consumption (wearing out) of the battery than it does to buy gasoline for a gas powered version? In other words, the energy cost of driving a tesla (when accounting for using up the chemical battery depreciation/wearing out) likely is MORE than the amount of gasoline energy to just use existing technology. The battery cost more than the car because the chemical battery requires tons of energy to produce and is a consumable. Same with batteries for solar. Present technology is cheaper than the tesla proposal yet is STILL way too expensive (and energy consuming). People are not looking at the total energy reality of batteries (they cost energy to make and they wear out-no one is adding in this extremely high energy cost). Further under real world conditions those tesla batteries waste 20% (as heat) of the energy used to charge them. No one will be draining that battery at 6o watts (less than 1/10 horsepower) to get the advertised efficiency of energy storage throughput ...... .etc.
And remember that if you are driving an all electric car, like a Tesla, then you're gas tank is effectively whatever is supplying grid power, which would be.... mostly coal. So yes, if you're driving a Tesla, when you plug it in, you are effectively loading it with lumps of coal.
Solar only makes sense if you use it to charge your electric vehicle.
If you see solar panels in your neighborhood and the utility allows net metering, then you're the battery.
If I lived in the tropics, I'd be tempted to grow several acres of oil palms and buy a couple Lister engines and gen heads.
Just use the car.
Have it programmed so that there is always a charge...then drive to you nearest charging station.
Since for a Tesla the cost of the charge is free they just need a way to reverse the flow.
I agree...run the solar/battery combo during the day when in fact you have an active solar/battery combo working for you.
The price of grid power who's volume is massive in the USA collapses to well high zero if not negative past midnight to 4 AM.
Those plants have to run 24/7 365 to make money.
Now how many here use 400 kw/month or less? Maybe with no a/c and using gas for cooking/water heating. I have a 10-12 kw per day system here in Florida that hardly ever maxes out due to cloud cover. My average grid usage is 1000 kw/month. As one can see my solar doesn't come close to allowing me to go off grid... unless I want to Danial Boone it.
That along with $6000 in batteries so I don't smoke my electrical equipment due to fluctuating cloud cover. Then add 3 grand for a decent inverter/charger and a couple thousand here and there for the wiring etc and you end up with a 20 thousand plus dollar boondoggle. Solar is no alternative for hydro/coal/gas fired plants.That's the plain truth of it.
Many think all you have to do is buy a couple of solar panels, throw them out on the lawn, run a couple of wires and voila! your off grid.
At this precise moment I have a total of $26 thousand invested and they are producing little / to zero watts due to storms in the area for the next few days.
For $26K, instead of the solar panels, you could have installed a geothermal ground source heat pump and cut your HVAC costs dramatically.
I did it for a hobby and a bet with a solar guy never suspecting it would go that high. It was the batteries killed me. Tried using Marine type but everything produced today is pure junk. Ended up with Trojans which seem to be holding up. Won the $20 bet.
That said, anything you try will end up costing you far more than the 12-15 cents per kw/h.
I am a residential architect, with 26 years total experience. Recently I completed the Certifed Passive House Consultant training.
Passive House, not to be confused with Passive Solar, is German in origin and applies advances building science principals to reduce energy demand by 70-80% compared to a modern "Energy Star" fully US code compliant home.
see link here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house
This is a great step to take BEFORE or INSTEAD of going full tilt with the solar PV Or Tesla Battery OR Genrators or other....
If we reduce the total load/ demand by 70% FIRST
THEN we can vastly reduce the sizing and cost of our off grid system, whether its PV or wind or micro hydro. or generator
The cost to build a new "passive House" is about 15% higher than standard US construction.
We are rural in an eletric utility only location, where we pay about 12 cents per Kw.
for us, going toward passive, house, not even fully there yet has reduced our december eletric utility bill from $483 in 2013 to $111 in 2014.
Our total cost of home improvements so far was about $11k on our Home Depot charge, for a 1,200 SF ranch, built circa 1940s.
The next step for us is a Stiebel Acelera or Sunbandit water heater, becasue our average electricy bill is about $85; of which $50 is just for the water heater.
This is common in Passive House. the water heater becomes the highest demand appliance.
The minumum perfomance standard to meet Passive House citeria is one Watt of energy max needed per square foot of living space to heat or cool your home.
For Reference, thats like two 75watt bubls to heat your bedroom on a cold winter day.
We are not there yet, but thats where we are heading, and you can get there also.
This would reduce the authors demand formulas by 70% and is probably worth another look at how to best apply the economics.
Already Passive Houses sold in Portland Oregon are showing very high resale values so the upfront costs are not lost on resale.
This is very encouraging news.
I'm glad to help anyone who is interested.
This is my home business and I am passionate about this topic.
I bought a 150 yacht to get off the grid and save money. I use diesel generators to make electricity and de-salinate water. Not accounting for the $375K in annual crew costs or the $23.4M for the yacht, my cost per kilowatt is just under $14/kwh.
Now I have plenty of money for whores and whiskey.
Way too much Math in this thread!
Musk, Obama repackage failed shit, sell as new miracle snakeoil
1) Solar PV is dropping like mad in cost, there is a serious advantage here.
2) Battery is dropping 18%/year.
The argument isn't If, the argument is When.
Yes fuck nature, fuck mankind, cos economics. Depleted Uranium shells for everyone.
I made $260 in 2 months (during winter) thanks to stupidly high rebates from the west Australian gov. As someone said above, get inline when .vov is handing out $$$$. It's ur money anyway.