This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
"Not Credible" Is Europe's Response To Latest Greek 3-Page Proposals As Greek Islanders Threaten Referendum
In attempt to bridge the gap between a proposal submitted by Greek PM Alexis Tsipras last Monday and a draft agreement devised by creditors the following day, Athens has reportedly submitted a new three-page plan focused on fiscal sustainability.
A second document was also submitted in which Greece has apparently proposed borrowing from the ESM to cover its obligations to the ECB in July and August. Those payments amount to around €7 billion.
Here’s Bloomberg:
The Greek government submitted a three-page budget proposal to its creditors in Brussels in a bid to unlock bailout funds, two international officials with direct knowledge of the discussions said.
The document covered only fiscal targets, one of the people said. Greece gave its creditors a separate note, also three pages long, on how to address the country’s financing needs, in which the government asked to use funds from the European Stability Mechanism to repay about 6.7 billions euros ($7.6 billion) of bonds held by the European Central Bank that come due in July and August, the people said.
Greece has already received €129 billion from the EFSF. Borrowing from the ESM to pay the ECB is essentially borrowing from Europe to pay Europe, much as the country tapped its IMF SDR to pay the IMF in May. As an aside, May’s IMF end-around depleted Greece’s SDR to the tune of 95%. Its SDR holdings now amount to just €30 million. Greece’s ESM paid in capital is around €2.2 billion.
At least one unnamed official who spoke to Bloomberg isn’t optimistic:
Greek govt’s revised proposal to unlock bailout funds is vague rehash of earlier plans, not considered credible, an international official directly involved in talks says.
Meanwhile, Greek islanders are restless over the VAT hike proposed by creditors (and so far rejected by Athens) and have moved to hold a referendum with the support of FinMin Varoufakis.
Via Reuters:
Greek islanders are threatening to hold a referendum on whether to veto proposals by the country's international lenders to scrap a reduced rate of value added tax for the islands, a regional governor said on Tuesday.
Plans to increase VAT have been a sticking point in talks between the Greek government and its European and International Monetary Fund creditors, as the two sides try to hammer out a cash-for-reforms deal to unlock further aid. Athens argues the hike would hit tourism, its main source of revenue.
Yorgos Hatzimarkos, governor of a south Aegean cluster of islands that includes popular destinations such as Mykonos and Santorini, said his region had decided to hold a referendum with the backing of Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis.
Greece contends that hiking VAT by 23% would spell disaster for tourism which, according to the country's tourism chief, is the "one sector that's doing well."
Speaking of 'sticking points' and "red lines", Tsipras is still holding on to the idea that he can strike a deal that doesn't include pension reform, something that's come up time and again throughout the fractious negotiations. It's unclear whether the PM's hardline stance on pensions will soften as June 30 approaches, but it seems clear that until Tsipras is willing to discuss the issue, any proposal out of Athens will be a non-starter, which is why the following quote from an interview with Corriere della Sera is largely meaningless:
"I think we're very close to an agreement on the primary surplus for the next few years. There just needs to be a positive attitude on alternative proposals to cuts to pensions or the imposition of recessionary measures."
In Germany, tensions are said to be rising between Chancellor Angela Merkel and FinMin Wolfgang Schaeuble. Fed up with what he perceives to be belligerence and, frankly, naiveté on the part of Syriza party officials, Schaeuble is ready to cut Greece loose, while Merkel, conscious of the 'Russian pivot' and wary of unknowable geopolitical ramifications, prefers concessions. Kathimerini has more:
A split between German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble is widening over Greece as the funding standoff goes down to the wire, said people familiar with the matter.
Merkel is ready to make concessions to keep Greece in the euro because of geopolitical concerns, while Schaeuble is willing to let the country exit the euro unless its government takes measures to ensure the country’s long-term survival in the monetary union, said the people, who asked not be identified speaking about internal party discussions.
That divide is also reflected in Merkel’s parliamentary caucus, which is increasingly uneasy with letting the 41-member budget committee decide on disbursing any aid to Greece and is looking instead at a vote of the lower house of parliament on a deal that includes changes to previous agreements, they said. The Finance Ministry declined to comment on the internal deliberations and referred to a statement last week by spokesmen for Merkel and Schaeuble said the two are working closely on the crisis...
Many lawmakers in Merkel’s 311-strong caucus made up of the Christian Democratic Union and Bavarian Christian Social Union are finding it difficult to support the chancellor’s position and would side with Schaeuble if forced to choose, the people said.
In sum, it looks as though the Greeks have essentially submitted the same proposal they submitted last week. That is, the "red lines" on VAT and pension cuts have not changed and as such, creditors won't likely budge. This was to be expected given that Athens has bought itself a bit more time by going the so-called "Zambian" route with its June IMF payments.
Political discussions are reportedly "ongoing" in Greece, which presumably means Tsipras is attempting to negotiate with Syriza party hardliners in an effort to determine if any further concessions to creditors would be acceptable in terms of passing an agreement through the Greek parliament. In other words, this latest "proposal" is likely nothing more than a token submission in lieu of a more serious effort later this month.
»
- 24379 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Just who has who over the barrel here?
Anyone, anyone?
Walk like an Icelander...and watch the fun ensue!
"Not Credible"
That’s a nice term..
Does that also apply to the ISDA (Imitation Securities & Deception Association) after in 2011. they refused to declare Greece in default with all those “haircuts” and everything?
OK, don't even joke about that.
Where the hell is Zeus & Company when they need em?
If you owe the bank a few hundred K or a few million and can’t pay, YOU have a problem.
If you owe the bank a few hundred million or billion and can’t pay.. THEY have a problem.
Throw those pathetic Greeks out of Europe already.
The proposal isn't credible? The whole fucking thing isn't credible. Europe isn't credible for letting this shit show go on so long and Greece isn't credible because they're a bunch of malakas.
Germany hasn't been able to stabilize its communist eastern part yet... will it be able to stabilize south Europe? i doubt
Best FUCKEN news ,since the last banker suicide in NYC.
Go Schaeuble! Save Greece. Bring out the Drachma.
ICYMI - Article 50 of Lisbon Treaty says nobody can be expelled from the EU or Euro.
P.S quit shouting
You didn´t ever read Article 50? There´s no word said about expelling or not expelling a country from the EU or the Euro.
But Article 50 gives a hint how to throw the Greeks out within the framework of the EU treaties. If all the other countries quit, except Greece and form a new EU at the same point in time, Greece is out. Capisce?
As usual Wolfie, your persistent wet dreams of a glorious fourth reich have got your head up your ass once again.
"At least one unarmed official isn’t optimistic"
no wonder
Greece cannot repay the interest on the loans it owes?
The solution is clear...
Lend them more money!
Fuck you, pay me.................
The Greeks just need to accept the facts - They're Greek, so no matter what happens, they will be taking it in the poop-chute. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY hands out a hard fucking like the international banks.
If I understood the recent news correctly, Iceland is relenting the capital controls of six years: you only need to pay a tax of something like a third and you can get your capital out
further, last time I checked the devaluation Iceland suffered was about half
so some blokes still won't get their money out of Iceland while other blokes had their salaries halved. not everybody's idea of fun, I fear
Versus what?
Greece can do a lot worse than Iceland.
At least it's been done by another nation.
versus the main currencies currently used? and... isn't it for the Greeks to decide? anyway:
"Merkel is ready to make concessions to keep Greece in the euro because of geopolitical concerns, while Schaeuble is willing to let the country exit the euro unless its government takes measures to ensure the country’s long-term survival in the monetary union, said the people, who asked not be identified speaking about internal party discussions. ...
Many lawmakers in Merkel’s 311-strong caucus made up of the Christian Democratic Union and Bavarian Christian Social Union are finding it difficult to support the chancellor’s position and would side with Schaeuble if forced to choose, the people said. "
as a reminder: both parties, the CDU and the CSU are usually seen by many Britons and Americans as hopelessly... socialist. both are actually social-conservative
and here you can witness their fiscal conservativism in action. when confronted with a fresh request by President Obama of the US of A, a "do something, Wall Street is screaming at me"
(Obama himself is still one of the leaders of the US Democrats, a party that presents itself as liberal, but would be called, in classical terms, social-liberal)
What!? "It isn't for the Greeks to decide"??
As if the population is completely powerless.
Oh man..
What's up serf?
the surfs are dry... people are struggling to pay last years income taxes and they talk about further tax hikes....
Tsipras has no choice but reduce the large public sector to reduce costs.. the surfs cannot fund the large public sector and the Europeans dont seem willing to pay either... Statism and euro are not compatible
You say that CDU/CSU is social-conservative when we all know that the party under Merkel has seriosuly swayed towards the left in many aspects. That's why parties such as the Afd even had a chance to form. Look at her energy policies, minimum wage and the list goes on and on...and that is why her policy towards Greece is becoming seriously strained within her own party and now it seems even her own minister is reaching his limits.
To me Sarkozy was more social-conservative than Merkel for instance but both come from the same "European conservative" spectrum.
they are, at federal level, in a coalition with the socialists (social democrats), aren't they? doesn't this explain some of it? you know, the feasible versus the not feasible?
at the same time, it's nearly a fiscal conservative party revolt that she is facing, isn't it? again, I point at the EU Fiscal Compact. How do you judge that?
Sarkozy rechristened his alliance into... the Republicans. That looks a bit like a shift to a more purely conservative stance, doesn't it?
Well first and foremost I am not a fan of Sarko, I just used him as an example of a president who stayed truer to the principle of his party no matter how they label it.
And yes I know about the concept of coalitions but Merkel's policies haven't changed much under a CDU/CSU Coalition with FDP or with SPD so I don't see the SPD as the main driver behind her left policies, this was maybe specifically the case with the minimum wage, but with other policies she willingly chose a more social approach and no other party forced her to do so.
As for the EU Fiscal compact, I know it's a concept on paper that may find some attention in northern European countries but considering how often France is allowed to skip its Maastricht targets since its implementation I don't pay too much attention to this additional compact. If Germany truly wanted to, it would excert more pressure on Brussels so that all countries comply with these treaties. For some reason it seems more convenient to wait and see what happens...
Ghordo, you are just so cute.
You will say essentially anything to support your little pet project.
Adorable.
Haus, I could as well regard yours as a blinding pet hate. Greek popular support for the EUR from 65% to 80%, btw. Explain
I get the popularity. You don't have to remind me.
I cannot understand Greek in any way. I however can understand and read German. If the Greek news is anything similar to the German news it will go something along the lines of;
"OMG OMG OMG without the most holy of holy alliances to ever grace the planet earth, the European Union, along with the eternal beacon of peace and freedom -- the EURO, we will all get AIDS, go bankrupt and die a slow painful death."
Then they ask the questions in the polls;
"Would you like to die slowly with AIDS and leave the EURO or would you like to live in peace & prosperity with the EUR"
ZDF stopped me once to do a man-on-the-street poll in Berlin. When I elected for European Warfare and the end of the EUR the poor bastard didn't quite know what to say.
The polls mean nothing.
But then again, the polls had nothing to do with your original comment. Your original comment was centered around Iceland, and its subsequent bashing to illustrate how Greece staying would be better. Your argument was one-sided and not at all accurate, but you know that.
See, when you are faced with a problem re; the EUR or the EU -- you are the exact opposite of I. You look for any possible argument as to why its a good thing, and I look for every possible argument as to why its horrible.
At least I can admit my bias. You however, keep trying to convience yourself you are in the middle, when at the end of the day, I get the feeling you and Martin Schultz would agree 99.999% of the time.
Haus, "When I elected for European Warfare and the end of the EUR the poor bastard didn't quite know what to say". Ok, I get the second, but what do you mean by the first?
you repeatedly bring the EU back in a discussion about the EUR. why? note that this is a Greek Gov position and argument
and you accuse me of socialism. up there, I point out that both the CDU and the CSU are social conservatives. explain to me your beef with the CDU/CSU
yes, I'm quite a centrist. what is your beef with centrism? that it's not anti-socialist enough for you? am I not critical enough of socialism or am I too critical of liberalism and conservativism?
The guy phrased the question like;
"Good day, I am with ZDF doing polling as to the public's opinion of the European Monetary Union. Would you like peace and prosperity guaranteed with the EUR, or would you prefer to risk it and go back to the DMark?"
I had to answer before the GF stepped into tell warn the poor guy, but because he coorelated peace with the EUR, I just took my answer to its logical conclusion in my answer and elected for "europäisch Kriegsführung und das DMark wieder"
My accent gave me away so my answer likely didn't count, but the look on his face was worth it. Worthless koolaide guzzling fuck.
Whenever you watch Tageschau/HeuteJournal/usw. usf., and they bring up polls about the EU/EMU this is what it is based on. Questions like this. Especially their in-house polls.
EDIT - Ghordo, and while you are centrist on most things, on the EUR and EU you are essentially Martin Schultz.
LOL, I can imagine the scene and I would have loved to witness it!
"peace and prosperity guaranteed with the EUR" what a jerk
I can't help that Martin Schultz and his socialists jumped on the EUR monetary horse and ride it for political purposes
but note that federalism isn't a bleary-eyed domain of the socialists alone. Schäuble, for example, is a federalist, too
I'd be very grateful if you answer all my questions above. but my give-away here is: european federalism can't be equated with socialism
and european allergies versus war, particularly among europeans, can't be equated with socialism, too
This was between the Kanzleramt & the Hauptbahnhof near that bridge. I imagine the pro-EU turnout was over 95% that day. Anyways, the guy appeared to be in his early 20s, probably a Praktikant & had done nothing but consume kool-aide from the moment he entered the Kita.
I would disagree with you asserting that Euro federalism cannot be equated with socialism -- as that is exactly what they are trying to pull off- a European Socialist Superstate. Instead of National Socialism -- we have European Socialism. The stakes are bigger this time.
If a federalised Europe was to ever come about -- I would seriously have to re-evaulate my living situation, but financially -- it would be a transfer union between the North and the South. With the South being essentially a Hinterland and the North paying ever increasing sums to keep them from revolting.
Humanity greatest failure is our inability to understand compounding and opportunity cost.
meanwhile, the UK, that bastion of liberal conservativism, has adopted the EBT card. we'll see
As an none Euroweinie I find this who concept the G man being a centrist amusing. He is only a centrist in a narrow definition of the spectrum. I doubt he would agree with one single thing that UKIP stands for while he certainly could find comfort in this or that plank of various communist organizations. So, if you are talking about a political spectrum that only includes the left, yes, he is a centrists.
That is why we yanks think the whole thing is bullshit.
TheReplacement, I think you might be confusing Centrism with something completely different
I would define it as: "opposing political changes which would result in a significant shift of society either strongly to the left or the right."
I fought against Communism, including taking some risks in travels in the Soviet Union and a few of it's former satellites, btw
I agree with the core point of UKIP, btw: the UK should leave the EU. if only to find out what it means or not
I write centrist, here, btw, more as an explanation, because I collaborate often with people of conservative parties, which is more my "political home"
moderate conservatives. but I also don't mind moderate liberals or moderate socialist. you see? moderation is my hobby horse
but "you yanks" have one big, big problem: for you, liberalism and conservativism are fused together into one, with only socialism left to battle with
and so the typical social-conservative party in continental europe is socialist, and the socialists are socialists, and so Europe is socialist, period
and you have so much anti-socialism propaganda that you actually don't even really know what socialism is. it's just "the horror"
and so you have a distorted political spectrum, and this is one reason for your political party duopoly
but again, what does mean "conservative" to you?
I was wondering why the polls show most Greek people support the EU and Euro membership, when by doing so, they act like lemuels marching into the sea. This is the first reasonable explanation I have seen.
what part did explain something to you in a reasonable manner? honest question. that Germans equate their engagement in the EU and the EUR with a peace mission?
Greeks support the Euro, just like the welfare queen supports the State.
Next question!
Read my lips !!!
They have an agreement in place, it just hasn't been announced yet. This is all theatre to give the traitor Tsipras cover to pass an atrocity agreement through his own party and parliament without collapsing his government. The Syriza "hope and change" promises were just another scam from the very beginning.
It's all over but the crying in Greece. You can keep putting up these wishful thinking "Greece will bring down the system" daily articles all you want but reality is the bankers already won again.
What did they win?
The impoverishment of 50% of Greek society, the destruction of worker rights, the destruction of all social safety net programs, the destruction of public education and healthcare, the theft of the people's assets and the control of an entire sovereign so that odious debts can continue to be serviced.
Not enough for you?
Oh wow that's some valuable shit there!
Glad you explained it.
the last official numbers about poverty in Greece are of 25% of people living below the poverty line, which is horrific enough
would a huge devaluation help the poor in Greece? or would it hurt those living off their savings?
If you are still paying attention at "official" niumbers it speaks volumes on your intellect but I will give you a pass since you mentioned "it's horrific enough".
But far more important in answer to your parroting of yet another main stream media talking point, THE DEVALUATION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE in purchasing power without the benefits of a devaluating currency..
Are you starting to get it?
back to basics, now you made me very, very curious. "the devaluation has already taken place in purchasing power"? How?
Last time I looked, € 400 bring a whole Greek family through the supermarket and the month. Do you ever shop in Greece? I do
€ 400 bring a whole Greek family through the supermarket and the month.
First question...
Does € 400 bring a whole family through the supermarket and the month ANYWHERE in Europe?
My belief is that it does as Brussels has standardized everything.
Next question...
As I do not know any better I will accept that.
But what I am seeing is that when these families are UNEMPLOYED or UNDEREMPLOYED then getting ahold of those € 400 to feed their families is the actual problem.
Am I correct?
Apparently Ghordo , I would have to Agree with Tall Tom on that.
Also you do not take into account that we pay quite a lot for electricity (which includes housing fare ) and then there is the new tax by the first memorandum for housing you own.
Which means that if i have any income , and own a house , even if the income is not enough to support that 400$ a month (just for supermarket that is) i will have to pay for approximately 1k for that house in most cases unless if i m not living in a big town.
Then if i m not living in a big town i can probably not find a job to afford those 400$
The biggest problem for greece is that it has been deprived of liquidity ever since the election happened.
Since 2011 in the "healthy" private sector of Greece liquidity has been gone. People are not getting paid in time, in 90% of the cases they get paid by the end of june for April's work.
Which is rather funny to consider. What can such a person do ? They even need to pay taxes for money they have not been paid by the priv sector yet they signed to ahve been paid in order not to get fired.
Its ammusing.
As a 26 year old greek, i believe greece should default , period.
We are screwed anyway, let's screw up everyone else for making things worse for us for 5 years with no reasonable outcome and not letting us default.
Billy D. Tourist, your ZH account is 16 weeks old and you write there:
"Student of Agriculture at Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. Greek." fine
may I ask you how it comes that you write: "not enough to support that 400$ a month" and then "not find a job to afford those 400$" ?
I find it a slightly bit... suspicious. It should not be that you never noticed the difference between £, $ and €
Perhaps his keyboard doesn't have a euro symbol. I've seen lots of French made keyboards without it.
He does put the dollar sign behind the number which is very unamerican.
Who knows?
we'll see what he writes, and how
Ghordo - give the kid a break. Studying agriculture at this point in time is a smart move.
Apparently Ghordo , I would have to Agree with Tall Tom on that.
Also you do not take into account that we pay quite a lot for electricity (which includes housing fare ) and then there is the new tax by the first memorandum for housing you own.
Which means that if i have any income , and own a house , even if the income is not enough to support that 400$ a month (just for supermarket that is) i will have to pay for approximately 1k for that house in most cases unless if i m not living in a big town.
Then if i m not living in a big town i can probably not find a job to afford those 400$
The biggest problem for greece is that it has been deprived of liquidity ever since the election happened.
Since 2011 in the "healthy" private sector of Greece liquidity has been gone. People are not getting paid in time, in 90% of the cases they get paid by the end of june for April's work.
Which is rather funny to consider. What can such a person do ? They even need to pay taxes for money they have not been paid by the priv sector yet they signed to ahve been paid in order not to get fired.
Its ammusing.
As a 26 year old greek, i believe greece should default , period.
We are screwed anyway, let's screw up everyone else for making things worse for us for 5 years with no reasonable outcome and not letting us default.
Greeks have their previous political leaders to blame. They falsified their books to get into the EU. The EU was duped into letting them in then had to bail them out. EU didn't demand reforms in place first before disbursing funds. Greece wasted the bailout money. So, Greek politicos got to look real clever in playing the EU for fools.
Now they are trying to create the appearance of making the EU responsible for all their problems. That would be yet another trick. But hey, they've done it successfully twice already. Why not go for three?
Ultimately Greek voters have themselves to blame because they elected whomever promised them the most goodies, regardless of the reality of not being able to afford them. It is ironic that the same people who invented democracy also found a way to pervert it.
Debt slavery!
This reminds me of Hank Paulsens two page TARP proposal.
Only two?
We should put Hank in charge of healthcare!
I thought ACA - that the Greek's proposal might be more credible if it was at least 10,000 pages
I don't feel sorry for Greece at all. Instead of cutting government expenses and taking an axe to tax rates they still insist on taxing and spending, borrowing and still spending and as of late begging to spend more. Just throw them out. Contact with reality is the best cure for socialist fairyland delusions.
I have said this before, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Europe is socialists they want it and when it does not work they look for a wizard who can make it happen. And when that does not work then violance.
"Europe is socialists..." then explain to me the 350 billion financial account surplus of the eurozone, this year, or the fiscal conservativism of the EU Fiscal Compact
Just like the USA.
The problem with the USA is we can't quit anything....we're it!
Not any more.
We can quit borrowing. We can quit having a Federal Reserve. We can quit having career politicians. We can quit our aggression throughout the world. There's more we could quit but the aforementioned would be a starting point.
A true starting point would be a citizenry that does not re-elect the likes of Hank Johnson, Mark Sanford, or Nancy Pelosi,. I use this triumvirate as an example of the clearly visible ineptitude, lack of integrity, and general cluelessness that is considered acceptable by citizens across this country regardless of party affiliation, gender, or race.
secret plan of refinancing of all greek debt - negative interest rates, problem solved, cash flow to greece...
Sounds like they can't afford a lawyer.
Mr Panos, their consultant, is reviewing the details now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
three words for greece: auto title loan
drankard to his creditor - "If you give me more money I promise not to drink any more. Yeah this is easy for me when i have no money to spend"
:::dove clap:::
I wonder how much paper and how many bytes have been wasted already on proposals and counter proposals flowing between Brussels / Berlin and Greece. I hope they all have sleepless nights over it too!
Greece needs to hire Wimpy as their chief negotiator.
But...but, I thought Obama offered a financial team to fix Greece's problems?
Look, does it mention anywhere NOT paying back the fucking fraudulent odious debt.
If it does then its credible. If it doesn't mention it at all then it is also credible, because either way they will NOT pay the fucking bill for the debts scammed on them.
Meanwhile a fat ugly unfuckable bitch is charged with murdering an old cripple in his wheelchair.
or was it the other way around
how much? how much of the Greek debt is "fucking fraudolent odious debt"? all of it? or just the part added after 2007?
"Odious debt" is a concept that only exists in the disturbed minds of some dead-beats.
Any part of it that was signed by anyone who is corrupt, on the take, a criminal, or purely self serving.
That includes of course de facto every fucking corrupt fucking EU bastard, 100% of the fucking IMF especially under the two last utterly corrupt criminal regimes. And of course every fucking lying thieving pol in Greece who scribbled a name to the documents.
Are we clear now
Grexit already, this news is like Chinese water torture!
PAGE 1:
We is now maxxed out on dat last bailout you give uS.
PAGE 2:
We need anuver bailout.
PAGE 3:
When we is maxxed out on dat bailout you giv us anovver bailout yeah ?
Fuck this ridiculous theater production. It's all money created out of thin air.
Yes, but that money printing franchise is something the zios will incinerate the earth to protect.
Hasbara trolls out in force these past two daze.....US govt checks must have finally cleared.
Greece needs nukes. Then they can play the sampson card like the fukcing zios do.
lol
"Greece contends that hiking VAT by 23% would spell disaster for tourism which, according to the country's tourism chief, is the "one sector that's doing well.""
And i read something about a +11% hotel tax.
Greece get out and save the only sector left that can keep you afloat.
Any proposal that does not clear the deck of all unsustainable and unserviceable debt across the planet is just a waste of time and will only add to the demise of the system.
There is a Greece on every "corner" of the globe waiting to keel over.
The Germans were behind the genocide perpetrated by Turks in 1915. The Germans told them to rid the coastline of any non-Muslims in preparation for WWI.
The Germans are now behind another genocide whereby they demand the repayment of capital when Greece cannot even make interest payments.
I mean how f%$#*^ is that?
The Germans are either retarded or they truly are intent on destroying Greece so they can buy her for cents in the dollar.
Peter Pan, let me guess, you have not even a shred of evidence for that, eh?
Ghordius you just fucked up big time. I just finished reading a book written by a Greek chap and transated into English which says exactly what I wrote above. And before you say, "written by a Greek" you should take note that a personal reference is also included in the book by the Turksh ambassador in Greece in which he says that the book will take pride if place in his library and that it features historical facts. The title of the book is Lemnos and Anzacs.
oh, your read... gasp!... a book! written by a "chap". I beg you to pardon my arrogance /S
Your a braindead moron. We didn´t tell the Turks anything in preparation for WWI, Germany wasn´t prepared for WWI at all, but hey, we told the Turks what to do in preparation. Show me just a little bit of evidence, just a tiny bit, for your stupid remark.
And to make this clear, the Greeks today have enough assets to sell to repay every Euro they owe. They just don´t want to. What those deadbeat want is moar money, much moar money from others to lead their cosy life. Greeks are just parasites and they ever will. That´s why there is no place for them in Europe.
Read your fucking history Wolferi and in particular the role played by General Otto Liman von Santers who trained the Turkish army and undertook a study of how to improve Turkish defence capabilities. The report by the way was delivered to the Sultan himself. Look it up if you have the decency to not lurk in the darkness.
Von Sanders was a General in the Turkish army since 1913. Before that he was a General in the German army. So what? What has this to do with "preparations for WWI"? The Turks wanted an expert to improve their army in general, since it was in absolutely poor state before and they rightfully feared an assault by the Brits, the Russians and/or the French. Neither Germany nor Turkey were really prepared for a major conflict in 1914.
Good to see you have made a start" now keep searching for the rest of the truth.
Good to see i was right calling you a braindead moron. Your lies about British war crimes are digusting.
I have to hand it to the troika. Every day they come with a new way to tell the Greeks to address their plans for a new deal to the NATO grunts who'll shortly be landing in their backyards to help them pack for wherever the Germans expect the Greeks to go after they're foreclosed on and driven out of their own country.
I wonder what arrangements have been made with Poland for re-settlement of Greek refugees.
ESM, ECB, EFSF, ELA, I can't even fucking keep up anymore.
It's just one big financial circle jerk.
All is financial engineering with the same objective: To refund lost stakes with Greece - both the bankers and the corrupt Greek politicians from the beginning on betted on the principle "too big to fail" - and Greece is just repeating this game....the old and new(!) debts are too big to fail....
Merkel is a bad, naive negotiator because she still believes this guys to convert after next billion-payment.
Greece is far from perfect but it is just having to face the reality that austerity is really damaging the economy and the debt cannot be handled with a declining economy. But the rest of EU doesn't care, It just wants the money to pay the banks. Greece is trying to get an arrangement where its economy can recover and grow but the EU has no interest in that and just keeps shooting it down. Greece either has to be driven into the ground or say, no more and start over. Maybe the EU banks can't afford a $320 billion loss and so is just going to gut Greece. Maybe EU banks aren't as healthy as they say. Maybe the whole damned house of cards is about to crash if the Greek card is removed. Clearly, the banks are not trying to grow the Greek economy. They are just trying to hold off the crash as long as possible! That doesn't sound like a healthy EU economy to me.
So, here is the plan;
Greece agrees to the purposed plan of cutting pensions and increasing taxes. Markets are happy and continue rising. Greece recieves €7Bn in their accounts.....and defaults anyway! I mean, those €7Bn will be spent on paying down on next 2-3 months of bills anyway.
If I was Tsipras and Greece I'd agree to the terms, postpone the payment to March 2016 as suggested, recieve the last paycheck and then default in March. Jam it up their a$$es one final time! In the end, with the devaluation of the currency capital will flow straight into Greece as people will look to buy stuff on sale. Meanwhile, while rest of the Europe is in turmoil, Greece may be the one coming on top!
Go for a real clusterfuck.. reissue the Drachma for official purposes and keep using the Euro for the black market.
opps I'm not supposed to reveal their master plan /s
Not heard anyone mention ze greek gold for a while? Is it still there I wonder?
Nope!!!
Not even gold dust.
Each new billion strengthens the position of Athen and is driving the German price for an (...finally worthless...) agreement up.
With all this theater 8 years even before the first instalment payable to Germany and the other low-interest-borrowers is nessecarry one can imagine how much will remain of this greeked agreement-papers.
Pull the plug as quickly as possible and cancel the project.
German government should learn to return to real politics, finish it's devotion to anybody and take of the velvet gloves. If not, the people soon will put on it's boxing gloves and vote other parties.
Varoufakis and Tsipras have fucked this up so badly, it is hardly possible to imagine any worse bungling, incompetent and delusional fools.
Do you think Germany's Angela Merkel or International Financial creditors give a rat’s arse about Tsipras’s political problems or that fool Varoufakis's pseudo-Marxist ideologies ?
Successive corrupt Greek Governments have gotten themselves into this mess, it is simply up to them to sort out their own selfmade problems.
No-one gives a rat's arse about what they do or not do anymore - they are corrupt liars and crooks, trying to con anyone who is fool enough to listen.
WR;)
Tsipras’s notion that he can wiggle out from under his obligations by appealing to the politicians is about as delusional as it gets.
Tsipras is drowning and no one is in any mood to throw him a lifeline. He has strutted arrogantly across the stage in Europe since his election,
claiming a mandate that doesn’t exist except in his fevered imagination, and making thinly veiled references to Chancellor Merkel as a Nazi.
Whatever happens to him and Greece will be only what they deserve.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/06/07/greek-tragicomedy-continues-tsipras...
Oh NOW the EU is all about 'credibility'? Fuck off.
This is a farce gone too far. What is the issue -- who takes the hair cut and how much. If you cannot decide this in a day, you will not be able to resolve it over a year either. Taking a new loan to repay an old loan does not resolve the issue of solvency, at best a temporary solution for liquidity problems. This meaningless game of brinksmanship should end before the markets show their disgust and crush us.
Tsipras is basically blackmailing EU and Germany into giving Greece more funds. Threatening 'end of EU' due to contagion presumably. This is a low blow - under the belt. Alexis is a dirt-bag. But why wouldn't he pull out all the stops? His pathetic country has nothing left to lose.
Take away the reserve currency status of the dollar and the US is arguably in worse shape than Greece.
I thought VAT paid by tourists was refunded at the airport!
According to your bio you are a retired banker -with us for 2 days and 11 hours. So you must know that the bail out of Greece was a bailout of German and French banks that made bad investments in Greece. Not withstanding the corruption etc. in Greece (that everybody in the EU/ECB/IMF/banks knew about), do you think -as a retired banker- that it is fair that tax payers should bail out banks that made bad investments? Do you think it is fair that banks' profits are privatized while their losses are socialized? Thank you for answering these questions.
-why not let the great reset start with Greece defaulting? Then they can be blamed for everything that follows.
Greece's economy can't survive without a substantial and ever-increasing 'investment' from the other EU members. I think the Greeks are doing the EU a favor by making it so clear they aren't going to reform their economy so long as they are in the EU. If they leave, they will have to beat a new path. The EU is the problem here. Wake up and cut them off. Greece and the EU will both suffer near-term, but long-term will lead to a better outcome for all.
Fact number 1: the powerfull 4th Reich can humiliate Tsipras all they want and finaly get another more helpfull "yesman" elected in his place in Greece.
Fact number 2: The Greek people are not revolting as they should, so Greece will remain under the 4th Reich rulling for now.
Fact number 3: Big lenders of Greece will never get their money back or the land of the country, in fact they have already lost it and just try to keep the skeleton hidden in their closet or else EU nations under the 4th Reich rule will start revolting (a black hole of 500 billion euros can make even the German people revolt against their goverment)!
Fact number 4: Obama and US expect and demand that the German goverment keeps the secret that they fucked up and lost 500 B deep inside their closet...
So yes everything is under control but history teaches that nothing this big can stay under control for long...
Just in time for next summer vacations in Germany (final of June) Merkel will pronounce the result of this ridiculous negotiatons respectively something she will call euphemistically "compromise" - and will cost the German taxpayers a lot of billions.
Pronouncing bad messages right on time when summer holiday starts is Merkels usual strategy, absolutely predictable and it's all over town that this time there won't be any exeption.