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"Horrified" Syriza Hardliners Back "Immediate" Greek Bank Nationalization, Euro Exit
In “Democracy Under Fire: Troika Looks To Force Greek Political ‘Reshuffle’”, we took an in-depth look at the true motivation behind the hardline stance adopted by Greece’s creditors. In short, we’ve argued that the troika is determined to send a strong message to EMU member countries that threatening to expose the idea of euro indissolubility as fiction is not a viable bargaining strategy when it comes to extracting austerity concessions from Brussels. This became even more important after regional and municipal elections in Spain which betrayed growing resentment for the troika and strong support for Podemos, a progressive political movement that is, in many ways, ideologically aligned with Syriza. Here’s what we said last month:
It is becoming increasingly clear that the Syriza show will ultimately have to be canceled in Greece (or at least recast) if the country intends to find a long-term solution that allows for stable relations with European creditors although it may be time for Greeks to ask themselves if binding their fate to Europe is in their best interests given that some EU officials seem to be perfectly fine with inflicting untold economic pain upon everyday Greeks if it means usurping the ‘radical leftists.’
Less than a week later, Syriza hardliners called for a default to the IMF and a return to the drachma. The motion was defeated by just 20 votes, prompting us to contend that Greek PM Alexis Tsipras will need to ensure that any serious proposal presented to creditors is first cleared by Syriza’s more radical members because the only thing worse than capital controls and “Grimbo” (i.e. a slow motion train wreck) is the chaos that would ensure should Tsipras strike a deal with creditors only to see it fall apart in parliament amid raucous party infighting and the rapid disintegration of government.
Now, it appears as though EU officials aren’t the only ones drawing up plans for capital controls and Grexit because as The Telegraph reports, the far-left faction within Syriza is ready to transition back to the drachma. Here’s more:
The radical wing of Greece's Syriza party is to table plans over coming days for an Icelandic-style default and a nationalisation of the Greek banking system, deeming it pointless to continue talks with Europe's creditor powers.
Syriza sources say measures being drafted include capital controls and the establishment of a sovereign central bank able to stand behind a new financial system. While some form of dual currency might be possible in theory, such a structure would be incompatible with euro membership and would imply a rapid return to the drachma.
The confidential plans were circulating over the weekend and have the backing of 30 MPs from the Aristeri Platforma or 'Left Platform', as well as other hard-line groupings in Syriza's spectrum. It is understood that the nationalist ANEL party in the ruling coalition is also willing to force a rupture with creditors, if need be.
"This goes well beyond the Left Platform. We are talking serious numbers," said one Syriza MP involved in the draft.
"We are all horrified by the idea of surrender, and we will not allow ourselves to be throttled to death by European monetary union," he told the Telegraph.
Syriza's Left Platform has studied the Icelandic model, extolled as a success story by the International Monetary Fund itself.
"The Greek banks must be nationalised immediately, along with the creation of a bad bank. There may have to be some restrictions on cash withdrawals," said one Syriza MP.
"The banks will go ape-s*** of course. We are aware that there will be a lot of lawsuits but at the end of the day we are a sovereign power," he said.
Syriza has a strong ideological motive to strike at the financial elites. They view the banks as the nerve centre of an entrenched oligarchy that has run the country for more than half a century as a family business. Forcing these institutions into bankruptcy provides cover for a socio-political purge, best understood as a revolution.
Iceland is a tempting model for Greece, but the parallel can be pushed too far. The Nordic country seized control of its three big banks - Glitnir, Kaupthing, and Landsbanki - when the crisis span out of control in late 2008.
As a reminder, this year Iceland will become the first European country that hit crisis in 2008 to beat its pre-crisis peak of economic output. In spite of its total 180-degree treatment of nefarious bankers, the banking system, and the people of its nation when compared to America (or The UK), Iceland has proved that there is a different (better) option that western dogma would suggest: imprisoning the bankers and letting the banks go bust. Here's what happened next:
In any event, it's also becoming clear that Tsipras is indeed limited by party hardliners in terms of what he can propose to EU creditors, and while Syriza claims this is evidence of party unity, it more likely represents the fact that the PM is stuck between allowing Greece to exit the euro or facing a severe political backlash in the event he comes to parliament with a draft proposal that includes concessions on pensions and the VAT. Here's The Telegraph again:
The creditors argue that 'Grexit' would be suicidal for Greece. They have been negotiating on the assumption that Syriza must be bluffing, and will ultimately capitulate. Little thought has gone into possibility that key figures in Athens may be thinking along entirely different lines.
Tasos Koronaki, the party secretary, said on Sunday that attempts to split the party will fail. "The government will not enter into any agreement that is not accepted by the parliamentary group. We are more united than ever," he said.
Mr Tsipras faces a critical choice. If he accepts creditor demands, he may lose a large bloc of his own party and have to rely on the establishment parties to push the deal through the Greek parliament.
Such a course of action would render him a Greek version of Britain's Ramsey MacDonald, the Labour prime minister in the 1930s who enforced austerity and became the socialist figurehead of a Conservative national government.
MacDonald never overcame the accusations of betrayal by the Labour movement. He died a broken man.
One is reminded of the demonstrations staged last week by members of the Communist-affiliated PAME union who displayed a banner depicting Tsipras alongside his two predecessors with the phrase “We have bled enough, we have paid enough.” The implication was that Tsipras is nothing more than a pandering technocrat, a characterization the PM is keen to dispel.
Ultimately then, Tsipras must decide how he wants history to remember his tenure as Prime Minister. Either he will be the leader who allowed Greece to crash out of the euro on its way to a redomination-driven economic collapse, or he will go down as the fiery advocate for change who caved under pressure and allowed the troika to stamp out democracy in the place where it was born.

* * *
Here's some bonus color from Barclays on possible political outcomes:
We have argued that the cost of a U-turn by Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras – that is, accepting the Institutions’ terms of an agreement – is likely to be a divided party, including raising opposition from radical Syriza MPs and possibly from its junior coalition partner, the Independent Greeks. However, in our view, this is something that PM Tsipras could survive, politically. The chances of early elections would be high in this scenario, but the likelihood of Mr Tsipras to be re-elected seem fair, in our view, even without the more radical factions of Syriza.
Instead, under the alternative scenario of no deal with the Institutions, in all likelihood we believe Greek banks’ access to ELA funding could be frozen shortly after the end of the month when the programme expires, and bank controls to limit deposit outflows and transfers abroad would be required. In addition, this scenario would also mean a divided Syriza, with the more moderate members opposing the government´s decision not to reach a deal. We think a majority of Greeks would blame the government for the failure in the negotiations and the freezing of their deposits. In our view, PM Tsipras would be worse off in this scenario, and we think it is unlikely that the government would be able to survive it.
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Why because the ultimate trojan horse to undermine humanity was unleashed by Greeks aka politics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic
...
Politics (from Greek: ????????? politikos, definition "of, for, or relating to citizens") is the practice and theory of influencing other people. More narrowly, it refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance — organized control over a human community, particularly a state.
...
3 - print money use it to buy bad Greek paper from Greeces debtors (a version of 2, really)
its about trading ink and paper for REAL assets - nothing more, nothing less.
The absurdity of loaning greece money so it can pay back its loans requires no discussion.
There are lots of possible alternatives. I don't know why Greece should have to stay in EU, or go to Russian Federation, or have to back up a departure with a war or become a military junta.
4- Interregnum of sorts, wait a year or two with out deciding if it will stay in the EU/NATO
5- Just don't pay creditors outside of Greece for a year or two in order to jump start the economy and build Treasury & Capital Reserves
6- Nationalize the Public Utilities, Ports, Rails, infrastructure it needs for revenue and to build a treasury, this might mean the EU no longer wants them
7- Go to the USD like so many other Countries, put off payments going outside of the country, but put them into a "Set-Aside" Trust Instrument saying you will attempt to pay them back over the next 20-30 years starting at a point where the economy & tax revenue reach substantial flow and Reserve Capital Levels and Treasury Levels reach a set Floor.
8- In the lean austere years of separation from the EU, have some restrictions on commodities like food to make sure the people don't face high prices or starve from lack of food
9- Set up Interest Free & Payment Free Loans for development of infrastructure, new technology, CapEx Investment, expansion of production or industries (these are common through out the world), Pay back of loans would start after the technology is proven, & profits occur or after 5 years.
With the help of Russiochina back the new Drachma with gold and silver & tell the banksters to fuck off!
They could back it with gold and silver. Equally plausible is that they could sell off a few unicorns and just pay it off.
It doesn't matter what they back it up with if they can't back up their sovereignty with a military or citizenship willing to fight to the death to back up sovereignty. No resistance, no sovereignty and therefore no money generating abilities counterfeit or otherwise on a sovereign scale.
true, and its doubtful russia will want to overextend when it has to deal with the fall of assad within a couple months, and the impending attack on Iran.
not to mention E. ukraine and whatever the usual suspects cook up in Ingush/chechnya to open another front...
Coup coming up in 3,2...
Money is ultimately backed up by brass and lead. If anyone thinks anywise else, I've got a bridge for sale you can buy real cheap.
If the Greek military isn't willing to fight a hot war to back up leaving the Euro, they die as a nation. It is as simple as that.
NATO calls the final shot here not the ECB and they have the guns not the ECB. They are not going to allow Greece to pivot to Russia and stay in NATO. You can't back up the Drachma without brass and lead. Russia ain't going to allow them to transition to the Drachma either unless the Greeks can show they can back it up with a military which means hot war or civil war once the nation starts being carved up into smaller chunks to justify keeping troops in the region.
Dewey, indeed, I agreed
that it USED to be that:
"Money is ultimately backed up by brass and lead."
However, the basic FACTS that money is measurement backed by murder have been changed by technologies which are trillions of times more capable and powerful. The first generation born into that situation is still alive today, and NOBODY KNOWS how that will eventually manifest in the future.
Greece is one of the leading edges of the psychotic breakdowns due to debt slavery systems driving their numbers towards manifesting debt insanities. HOWEVER, there is nothing in human history to compare to what is happening now, and therefore, the kind of street theater politics developing in Greece is not predictable, because NOBODY KNOWS!
The banksters originally were able to make and maintain systems of paper frauds, backed by gunpowder force. I.e., "Money ultimately backed up by brass and lead." However, globalized electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs, are trillions of times BIGGER, to the degree that one can not possibly predict how their basic contradictions would work themselves through ... AS ALWAYS, the essential problem is that being able to enforce frauds never stops those frauds from still being false. Therefore, the social successfulness of financial systems based upon enforced frauds constantly becomes more psychotic, the more successful that ability to enforce frauds becomes.
Since the frauds are electronic, and the threat of force that backs those up is atomic, it has been possible for the banksters' triumphant organized crime, manifesting as systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, to jump its guide rails, to the degree that it no longer bothers to even properly legalize that anymore. Thus, the established systems of ENFORCED FRAUDS HAVE BEEN AMPLIFIED TO ASTRONOMICAL SIZES, and so, able to continue to grow at an exponential rate, to the degree that that is now practically impossible to fully imagine.
The whole world is dominated by triumphant organized crime, which has been able to get away with doing that to degrees which have been magnified by many orders of magnitude greater than ever before in human history. On the way there, the established systems, based on ENFORCING FRAUDS, have become PSYCHOTIC and CRIMINALLY INSANE, due to the paradoxical ways that being able to back up lies with violence never stops those from still being lies, but rather, drives civilization controlled in that way to become ever more incomprehensibly and inconceivably corrupt and crazy!
Greece is one of the leading edges manifesting the basic background problems, such as how "money" was being made out of nothing as debts in order to "pay" for strip-mining the planet. For Greece to lose its status within the European Union, operating through the Euro, could drive drastic results, due to belatedly recognizing that background situation ... The same issues also are emerging everywhere else, to greater or lesser degrees. Those issues are generally being responded to in ways which continue to be based on BULLSHIT, since that BULLSHIT has been almost totally triumphant in dominating Neolithic Civilizations more and more for thousands of years, since social pyramid systems were always based on being able to back up lies with violence, that developed at roughly an exponential rate, to become financialized as systems of ENFORCED FRAUDS, that were able to make "money" out of nothing to "pay" for strip-mining the planet's nature resources, while turning those into garbage and pollution as fast as possible, and thereby enabling those doing that to make more of the "money" to drive the vicious spirals of strip-mining the planet ...
There is NOTHING regarding "democracy" NOR "oligarchy" that can change the basic facts regarding the established systems which are based upon strip-mining the planet running into diminishing returns from being able to continue to do that. Those diminishing returns show up first and foremost through their hyper-complicated feedback loops through the fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, which have driven the basic structure of debt slavery, backed by wars based on deceits, to become debt insanities, headed towards provoking death insanities ...
The ONLY realistic things that possibly different governments could develop would be different death control systems, to back up different debt control systems. While that appears to be theoretically possible, it also seems politically impossible, due to the history of successful warfare based upon backing up deceits with destruction morphing to become successful finance based on enforcing frauds. That is the context in which Greece is one of the leading edges of those developments, while practically nobody who is publicly significant is addressing those deeper issues, that money is necessarily measurement backed by murder.
Both the core of organized crime, the banksters, as well as their controlled opposition groups, political puppets, are operated by people who are the best available professional liars and immaculate hypocrites, within those groups, who are telling most of the other people mostly the lies that they all tend to want to hear repeated, because the vast majority of people have gotten used to believing in bullshit for generation after generation, and therefore, want to continue to believe in that kind of BULLSHIT. The REAL debt controls are operated through the maximum possible frauds, while the REAL death controls are operated through the maximum possible deceits, while BOTH those operating the establish systems, AND their controlled opposition groups, want to stay within the context of their BULLSHIT social stories about that, while the vast majority of people also want to stay within the context of continuing to believe in their BULLSHIT.
To summarize, Dewey, I REPEAT, I agreed with your analysis of what the history of the combined money/murder systems would indicate, when projecting upon the basis of the past ... HOWEVER, it is NO LONGER paper frauds, backed by gunpowder force. It is globalized electronic frauds, backed the threat of force from atomic bombs. NOBODY fully understands what that means. Rather, pretty well EVERYBODY deliberately ignores that, in order to be able to continue to believe in their own sort of preferred BULLSHIT.
Thousands of years of human history has been based on social success through being able to back up lies with violence, becoming integrated systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, such as the financial systems of enforced frauds. Greece was able to leap up into the European Union and Euro, and then flopped over on its back, after Goldman Sachs assisted the Greeks with indulging in runaway debt insanities. HOWEVER, that situation now is no longer as simple as "Money ultimately backed up by brass and lead." Rather, the emerging situation is globalized electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs, becoming a new kind of combined money/murder system which is psychotically out of touch with itself, due to the degree that almost EVERYONE WANTS TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE IN THEIR FAVOURITE OLD-FASHIONED BULLSHIT, in ways which deliberately ignore, as much as possible, electronics and atomic energy.
The basic issues in the background, that Greece is merely one of the leading symbolic edges of encountering, are the ways that the oldest and best developed forms of social science and social engineering was warfare, and economics developed inside of that context, as effectively a subset of warfare. Since warfare was organized crime on larger and larger scales, what actually EXISTS now is the international banksters' systems of debt slavery, backed by wars based on deceits, that have become electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs ... BUT, NOBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT ANYMORE ...
Since all of the most socially successful people were the best available professional liars and immaculate hypocrites, due to the social pyramid systems being based on backing up lies with violence for thousands of years, which was the foundation for the fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems to control political economy, there is almost nothing but organized crime, surrounded by controlled opposition, both of which indulge, as much as possible, in basically the same BULLSHIT.
Meanwhile, NOBODY has a clue what happens to systems of electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs, running into the limits of diminishing returns of being able to continue to strip-mine the planet's natural resources at an exponential rate. Sure, theoretically speaking, "we should" develop better integrated systems of human, industrial and natural ecologies, which have as their core different death control systems, to back up different debt controls systems. HOWEVER, all of the established systems are dominated by professional hypocrites, which is what we observe when the government of Greece "negotiates" with the Troika.
My view is that "we should" go through series of intellectual scientific revolutions, in order to attempt to understand what it means to have developed globalized systems of electronic monkey money frauds, backed by the threat of force from apes with atomic bombs. However, obviously, almost none of those monkeys nor apes are interested in doing anything remotely like that. Rather, they tend to all want to continue to believe in their obsolete bullshit, as do almost all of the rest of the human population at the present time.
We are watching Grand Canyon Chasms between progress in physical science, without progress in political science, get bigger and BIGGER ... as that manifests in many intensely paradoxical ways, which are made even more intensely paradoxical due to the degree that all of the most socially successful people are the best available professional hypocrites ... AND SO ... We continue to watch and wait, as the problems of backing up lies with violence become globalized electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs ...
In my view, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THAT MEANS, but we are most likely to find out in the hardest possible ways, since there are no good reasons to doubt that our politics will continue to be dominated by the BULLSHIT OF THE BEST PROFESSIONAL HYPOCRITES, making any better negotiations practically impossible, since almost nobody who is officially participating will admit and address any of the real issues, such as GLOBALIZED ELECTRONIC FRAUDS, BACKED BY ATOMIC BOMBS ...
CHARITY.
Greece will never repay anyone.
We used the Iceland blueprint during the S&L crisis in the late eighties. The DOJ prosecuted over a 1,000 bankers (putting many in jail), allowed the crappy S&L's to fail, and transferred the bad assets into the Resolution Trust Corporation, where they were sold off to the highest bidders (who had to file sworn statements that they were not involved with any of those crappy S&L's that had gone under). We were able to hit the reset button, and within about 5 years, the economy had recovered. Since that time, though, the banks have become exponentially more politically powerful, and they control far more money. They have become too big to fail, and too big too jail.
Bankster Lobbyests went into overdrive after the S&L Crisis.
They have proved their worth to their Bankster Masters for now at any investment price....
Banksters control the money. They create and destroy it. When we blame the Fed lets understand we're not blaming the government since the banks own and control everything it does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opnszybr7uY
Here's the problem with Greece trying to ape Iceland...
Economic Freedom Index 2015
Iceland - 26
Greece - 130 (that's deep in third world territory)
In other words, Iceland has a relatively free market economy (read: productive), while Greece's economy is state-controlled to a very high degree (read: unproductive). Iceland is like a hard-working person who went temporarily crazy with the credit cards, declared bankruptcy, and then got back to work. Greece is like a lazy fuck who lived on credit cards because he didn't want to work - and if he declares bankruptcy, he'll either have to change his lazy ways (read: major pro-market reform), find a new sucker to lend him money, or starve.
tl;dr -- The debt negotiations are a sideshow. Greece is fucked either way unless it makes major pro-market reforms.
And I'm doubtful that Greek democracy is capable of producing such reform. Are the people, so in love with their "free" shit and so indoctrinated in socialism, really going to vote for a party advocating laissez faire? I don't see it, but let's hope I'm wrong.
Yeah I'm not sure about the scoring on that list.
Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Gabon, Senegal, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Zambia, Tunis are ahead of Greece.
Then we see Greece is at the same level as Yemen and a point above China.
I'm sure it is complex scoring, but may not suit the purpose of if Greece can handle reforms and nationalizing it's banks.
Quantifying economic freedom is indeed a difficult thing.
Country A has higher taxes but less regulation, while Country B has lower taxes but more regulation - which is more free?
If Greece and Iceland were closer in the rankings (say 30 and 40), I'd say that it's inconclusive.
But the gap is huge (26 to 130). It means something.
And anecdotal information confirms this.
Iceland is basically on the Nordic model - quite a bit of welfare, but otherwise fairly free market.
Greece is on the Latin model - quite a bit of welfare, but also crushing business regulation and nationalized industries.
"if Greece can handle reforms and nationalizing it's banks."
Nationalizing the banks is not a good reform. They should simply leave the banks to their own devices, no support from the government, and if they fail they fail. If it's politically necessary to protect depositors, do that separately through something like FDIC (and only temporarily to ease the transition - FDIC in the long run creates serious perverse incentives, moral hazard).
Yeah I came up with this idea of nationalizing the Greek banks about 6 months ago, but didn't really think it through.
I think my mind was on the need to have a closed system in Greece, to not make payments to the big creditors for a year or two as reforms to simplify, streamline, and standardize take hold... and as they attempt to build a treasury and a monetary or Precious Metal Reserve.
Having the government run the banks is like amateur hour. But what would be more likely is ownership of the capital & reserves in the banks other than deposits. Then they would have to limit government spending while enlisting some member banks to help fund projects, or allow 5 years interest free loans on the projects that are priorities for infrastructure, trade & Commerce. Leading industries have to be identified to all people as a common cause. In 2008 they seemed to have $320 Billion GDP with many industries.
"they would have to limit government spending" ... not likely !
The Freedom Index rate of the US, requires ZH to be optimistic for a few minutes.
Is the USA a country of Conservative Banking & Conservative Accounting and Financial Rules? Did the US Crash the World in 2008 with Accounting Control Fraud supported by Fraudulent Financial Ratings?
Does the USA deserve to be #12 when the Education & Freedom of the Press are subverted by Wealthy Interests?
Can we support #12 Ranking with Federal, FED, TBTF, and Corporate Secrecy, Systemic Domestic Spying, Obfuscation in US Congressional Proceedings, Secret Trade & Health Care Bills, Ownership of the President & US Congress by Wealthy Interests, Even the Corruption is hidden so well we can't really define it in the USA, poor Scientific and Medical Studies are systemic, Poor Business Dynamism: Small businesses shut down more often and more close than are created each year, older & larger Businesses have the advantage according to some studies.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2014/05/22-decline-business-dyn...
http://www.kauffman.org/~/media/kauffman_org/research%20reports%20and%20...
Income Gini Ratio for Households by Race of Householder, All Races
2013: 0.476 Ratio (Inequality Trending up Strongly for 35 years)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, GINIALLRH,
Can we call USA #12 when our Foreign Wars are lies, we don't even count the civilian deaths/injuries we cause, and we don't count the property damage, economic damage, and refugees, diseased & Raped & Murdered Refugees.
Can we call it a "Freedom Index" when USG Lies to us about 9-11, our history, and ignores citizens requests for honest investigations. Does freedom include "Corporate Bailouts" for mismanaged businesses. Does Freedom include keeping the border open and using Slave Trade Overseas while calling it Free Trade?
Obviously I have more questions than answers. It just seems to me we have had a series of Coups in Washington DC at least since Bill Clinton, but probably since 1980 when a CIA Director became Vice President... coincidence that we now have a Spy State & Police State & lost Free Press & have False Wars & a Corporatocracy (Inverted Totalitarianism)?
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/unitedstates
"The United States’ economic freedom score is 76.2, making its economy the 12th freest in the 2015 Index. Its score is 0.7 point higher than last year, with modest gains in six of the 10 economic freedoms, including control of government spending, outweighing a slight decline in business freedom.
Although the precipitous downward spiral in U.S. economic freedom since 2008 has come to a halt in the 2015 Index, a 1.6-point decline in overall economic freedom over the past five years reflects broad-based deteriorations in key policy areas, particularly those related to upholding the rule of law and limited government. Continuing to trail such comparable economies as Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, and Canada, America has been ranked “mostly free” since 2010.
The anemic post-recession recovery has been characterized by slow growth, high unemployment, a decrease in the number of Americans seeking work, and great uncertainty that has held back investment. Increased tax and regulatory burdens, aggravated by favoritism toward entrenched interests, have undercut America’s historically dynamic entrepreneurial growth."
The Freedom index and the stupidity index are one and the same
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68V1-2OGeYw
Well we can't really compare the US stats very well since we know they froze the Total Debt, and GDP is made up.
I would say that Japan, Greece & USA have the largest debts, but found something interesting that suggests that Ireland should be the Target of the EU, ECB, IMF/WB. Or rather that the Debt of Ireland can never be repaid and is being subjected to a Con Game by Bankers.
I'd guess that Bankers are picking the Winners & Losers.
International Debt Issues to GDP for Ireland
2011: 237.24410 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07IEA156NWDB
International Debt Issues to GDP for Greece
2011: 144.54070 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07GRA156NWDB,
International Debt Issues to GDP for Spain
2011: 124.81570 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07ESA156NWDB,
International Debt Issues to GDP for Portugal
2011: 114.95650 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07PTA156NWDB,
International Debt Issues to GDP for Italy
2011: 63.52245 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07ITA156NWDB,
- You can see below why no ones goes after Japan, but the numbers for the USA are misleading since we are talking about over $6 Trillion USDs.
International Debt Issues to GDP for United States
2011: 48.64225 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07USA156NWDB,
Federal Debt Held by Foreign & International Investors
2015:Q1: 6,175.9 Billions of Dollars (+ see more)
Quarterly, End of Period, Not Seasonally Adjusted, FDHBFIN,
Federal Debt Held by Foreign & International Investors as Percent of Gross Domestic Product, 2014:Q4: 34.75940 Percent of GDP,
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/HBFIGDQ188S
Japan
International Debt Issues to GDP for Japan
2011: 7.49463 Percent (+ see more)
Annual, Not Seasonally Adjusted, DDDM07JPA156NWDB,
good for them, but I am afraid of what the US/NATO might do to prevent this....
Also - anyone in a militia?
Yet another hit piece by a couple of academics
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html
Which would be fine - but why do these guys never mention left wing terrorism? Its like every other week someone from the SPLC or ADL claims the sky is falling because some ex-vets think, frankly not without reason, that the government is become somewhat hostile to civil rights.
I think its the word "liberty" - to the ears of a lot of people in the Us, certainly Dem areas, the northeast, Cali - "liberty" just sounds like a weird term, Archaic. Yesh, it shouldnt maybe, but it does. "civil rights" might sell better in NY, LA and DC.
Just spitballin'
Hell, Article 9 of the Ohio Constitition says that "ALL Ohio citizens between the ages of 17 and 67 are members of the militia".
Guess they're going to need a LOT of FEMA camps in Ohio.
Because all terrorism when traced to a source can be found to have Conservative/Right origins-read it and whine
I wonder if the people of Iceland lost their pensions in the default.
Did they go 'all in' on their investments in their own banks or were pensions held in European banks? It is one thing to screw foreign note holders it is very different if a bank collapse means pension plans are destroyed too. I'm betting Greece is responsible for providing for the entitlements of Greek people.
If that is the case they will meet strong resistence when they propose to just let the whole thing crumble.
The Icelandic pension funds are quite strong actually. they had ca 27 percent of assets in foreign currency in 2008, mostly in secure bonds with state guarantee.
There were some losses but mostly because of effects of the crisis, much of that bounced back. The pension funds seem to work quite well in Iceland, probably because the politicians don't dare to try to rip them off.
Total assets are now 1,5 times GDP or 3000 billion Isk.
Greece pulled an "Iceland"....
To "Iceland", meaning to go against Banksters....
Luckily for Iceland, they don't sit on Zion's pipeline route from Israel to Europe, aren't being courted by the east, and don't grow much of a surplus of food that helps sustain the rest of Europe.
Liberty is a demand. Tyranny is submission.
If they nationalize the bank, expect a coup from the Army
And then a late night gold flight.
What, oh what, will the color of the coming Greek "revolution" be?
Does Sherman-Williams have an office at Langley and/or Glilot Junction?
Liberty is a demand. Tyranny is submission.
Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the Grexit
I had to find the default way back
To the financial place I was before
"Relax, " said the Zion man,
"We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave! "
If Greece does default, it will really be the only thing compared to Iceland(and not even exactly). After that they part ways and greece will go its own fraudulent socialist path as ever before. If anybody think they are actually going to do right things as Iceland did - like arresting bankers, making proper laws and reducing corruption for example, really need to visit hospital.
Throw those pathetic bankers into a grease fire already.
In a just world the citizenry would march into Goldman Sucks and make citizen's arrest, speedy trials and hangings
Greece Played Germany Like a Violin; Horrified Syriza Demands 'Icelandic' Default (June 16, 2015)
"A time-based analysis of eurozone taxpayer liabilities shows the Greek game-masters played German creditors like a violin."
Concluding paragraph:
Note the irony of it all. Germany wanted to issue a "Take it or leave it proposal to Greece".
Instead we see Greece issuing a "Restructure or we leave proposal to Germany". It's likely this was Syriza's plan all along. If so, they managed to play Germany like a finely tuned violin, allowing Greek citizens to pull out cash out of banks every day for six months.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2015/06/greece-played-germany...
Did everybody already forget the ZH article about Iceland and Sovereign money?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-01/iceland-stuns-banks-plans-take-back-power-create-money
This sovereign proposal is not banking as usual.
So, Iceland is moving forward. Nationalizing banks is not ideal. It means the government holds debt instruments on its citizens. That is too much centralized power. Sovereign money is NATIONAL MONEY, not national banks. That is a world of difference. National floating money can only be recalled with Taxes. There is nothing sneaky about taxes, and government has to wrangle with the population in order to tax them...this then makes government smaller.
Private Banks should remain private, they continue with their accounting services. Private banks are stipped of their ability to create credit, and instead earn fees.
Savings amongst the population means small business formation, and renewed local economies.
Yeah well. Name me one TBTF bank that qualifies for your defense of "private banking"???
JPM? Goldman? Citi? HSBC? DBank? Casinos not lending institutions.
You are confused or deliberately being confusing.
Greece will return to the drachma in short order, backed, at the very least, with the implicit, if not overt support of BRICS nations, and in the course of the next couple of months, is likely to become the first candidate for the new AIIB development bank.
The pending global currency reset --soon to be sparked by changes in the precious-metals markets-- will ultimately expose any claims that Greece is facing some kind of economic catastrophe as shallow fear mongering.
True, Greece is not Iceland, but we sure as hell are all Greeks now.
Most women learned a long time ago to "just say no" or more specifically "Fuck OFF"
When being raped by serial rapists kick them in the balls where it hurts and then TESTIFY so they cannot hide. Take a page from Iceland. Which far as I can see is doing just fine.
The EURO GROUP is not really giving Greece any options here
This is the choice the ECB is offering
1) Hang yourself slowly and we will give you some money , we know you wont pay us back but its ok we will just steal your country as collatoral through some defunct fraudulent legal process.
2) Leave, Dont Pay us, do what iceland did.
The only thing the ECB can do to prevent them from taking choice 2 is to make it scary "IF YOU DONT PAY US EEEER AN ASTEROID WILL HIT GREECE AND MARTIAL LAW" you dont want that do you??? NOW SIGN THIS LAW MMMOOOOAR TAXERRRRSSSSSSSS MMMMNAAAOOOW
lol its a joke.
The current economic arrangement with Greece and Europe is not equitable, Europe is getting all the good and Greece is getting all the bad.... and Greece really... didn't do anything to deserve it other than PASS THE DAMNED LAWS THAT THE ECB FORCED THEM TO.
Greece litterally did EVERYTHING Germany wanted since they joined the Euro.... and look where that got them.... enough is enough... time to try something different.
The obvious choice is to leave Euro , Re-Drachmafy , Partner with Russia to build a "real" economy with "value" isntead of an ECB SLAVE STATE.
I got an simple idea here as well.
Take JPM? Goldman? whomever falsified the intial books to court. Put them on the hook for fraud.
Ramblers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68V1-2OGeYw
The can has reached it's final destination imo. As with the kicking, you'd have to kick the can and then walk to it and then kick it again. Now, it seems the can has reached a barrier and is bouncing back. The wall is playing "kicking the can" back. Let's see who gets tired first.
Nationalize banks? Bank run would still go on. Capital controls would follow. And if you go to a new currency, it will trade at a discount.
You're taking a haircut any way you look at it.
He who panics first, panics best.
For the bankers a rope and lamp post. Anything else is window dressing.
Greece, I told you how to handle this problem, show them the middle finger!!...And DO NOT, return their calls!
make 'em SWEAT
Best thing we can do right now is to just keep Greece as comfortable as possible, as long as possible, until the end. Best to sit back and just reminisce until the final curtain.
"Ahh, Thermophylae... wow that was really nice, wasn't it? Good times."
"After all, its been nearly 2500 years... and glorious years they were, really... so what can anybody expect at this point?"
"Democracy was born there and has now come full circle. We're sure gonna miss all those debates."
"They came up with some neat buildings and architecture, too, huh?"
"It's so sad not to be able to do anything."
Huntsville, Alabama says couple can’t live “off the grid,” condemned their property and threatens arrest for trespassing
“I just don’t see how we’re hurting anyone by being here,” said Tyler Truitt when asked about having to defend his off-grid lifestyle to city hall.
As a military veteran, he found it really odd that he thought he was defending the American way only to come back home and be scolded by bureaucrats to hook-up!
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/alabama-city-suing-couple-to-get-back-on-...
It's not about Tsipras limitations, it's about Greece's limitations as a whole because they simply can't pay. In fact Greece already is in default but some seem to need a double conformation which will come at the end of July.
Does this drama have a final act?
Does this mean Greece is going to default?
The Greece situation is just a manifestation of true purpose of the money issued but supra-state oligarchs of ECB, namely to enslave. They do not even care to be paid off just to enslave for the sake of it, for the sake of power.
All power elites make sure that the purpose their financial system is to propagandize into peoples desire for money as means or ends to achieve something important, money that people cannot create (are prohibited to) or produce in sufficient quantities. This combined with government requirement or threat to be paid dues with their "money” closes the circle of wage enslavement.
An honest and interesting discussion on origin of money within human society and its derivative namely financial system and its “products” can be found at:
https://contrarianopinion.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/plutus-and-the-myth-o...
this bs, you cant compare greece with iceland...iceland the state never had any debt problems, it was all the private banks, and the state merely chose not to intervene to assume the bank's debts...with greece its the complete opposite...what a bs analysis zh.
"Hope"
We all know how Barry's hope turned the people that voted for him into dopes.
Greece "the show that never ends".
If Syriza pulls anything even close to an Iceland, that will only prove one thing to me.
That the TEA PARTY "movement" is little more than a D.C. bowel movement and will never amount to much.
Having just learned some of the details of the Greek pension system, I have to conclude that it is pure demagogy to assert that Greeks will endure severe pain if they are required to work until age 65 rather than being able to retire between 40 and 55 under the current arrangements.
Syriza members are seeing the light - or the end of their political careers. If they do nothing and let the EU/IMF seize control then Syriza looks bad. If they cannot come up with an unknown fantasy deal to hold the status quo, then Syriza looks bad. If they do come up with a deal and there is more austerity, then Syriza looks bad. If Greece defaults and has to leave the Euro then Syriza looks bad.
I would still say - default, balance your budget (easier with no debt), and introduce your own currency. Be bold, and go out trying.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/15/germany-is-bluffing-on-greece/#
I'm all doomed out.
I think I'm ready for the collapse.
Rip the bandaid.
The 16 million Greeks are barely surving, hanging on the lifeline of the pension system and it must be assumed that in most families one pension feeds many. Any further cuts to the pension system might have catastrophic consequences. Syriza might be against the wall with regard to pensions. The Greek economy needs to be re-invented and that is only possible after a GREXIT.
The big difference between Iceland and Greece is Icelanders have a higher work ethic and they pay their taxes.
For the past ten years or so the Greeks have been living the high life on debt and EU handouts. They owe it to their children and grand children to get out of the EU and get their country back. Whatever the consequences.
Nationalization of banks are keeping zombies alive. Another can kicking. Debts do not disappear wherever you warehouse it. It reduces through hair cuts or inflation.
How many Senior Management of Nationalized Banks get wage cuts to the levels of civil servants (that is what they will effectively be) ?
Only one thing I take away from articles like this which appear everywhere these days. No one knows what the hell will happen with or without a Grexit.
http://albainternazionale.blogspot.it/2015/06/arabia-saudita-armi-nuclea...
CIA, Mossad, 911, Chandra Levy etc ....
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's piece in the Torygraph was good, to a point. The fact is though, the only sane option for the Greeks is to default, drop the euro and let the creditors feel the pain. They're getting all the heavy shit piled on them because the EZ/creditors know they only get one shot - once the bluff is called they are indeed very much Nuland-ed.
OXI!
Greece will tell the bankers to fuck off, as they told the euro 'merikans to fuck off in the '70's, join Orthodox Russia, and, live happily ever after.
Greece will tell the bankers to fuck off, as they told the euro 'merikans to fuck off in the '70's, join Orthodox Russia, and, live happily ever after.
It's time for the military to step in and replace Tsipras.
One needs to take JPM's analysis with a large dose of salt. It should be obvious to anyone who is aware of the extent of the large US banks derivative exposure that the last thing that JPM wants to happen is for Greece to default and leave the euro. It would set off a chain reactions of events that could potentially bring down JPM and other large banks. Tsipras would actually have more support from moderate members of Syriza because unlike the hard leftist, as long as Greece can recover financially and economically they will support it. Continuing to belong to the Union of Debtors, excuse me I mean the EU is a dead end proposition. They would do better leaving the EU, joining the EEA, BRICS, investing in both Turkish Stream and TAP (if it happens) and use the opportunity to implement internal fiscal and economic reforms as a starting point to putting the country on more solid footing.
It is true most Greeks want to stay in the EU and with the hope of writing down debt and restructuring payments, but refuse to allow IMF and EU the authority set policy. Case in point - Last week Tripras offered to shut down 20 military bases and raise tax rates for Greek oilgarchs to 27%. IMF and EU said, "No!" so its all about banksters willing their control over a sovereign nation.
Do you have a source for the base-shutdown offer ?