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Is Telling Lies A Democratic Right?
Submitted by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,
I’ve noticed some notable changes of tone in the press recently, shifting towards outright oftentimes vicious if not ridiculous antagonism vs Greece. Remember, there is an agenda, there are pre-cooked narratives galore, and these people are not your friends.
I won’t be able to cover all the things I would like to right now, let’s start with just the one. And I’m warning you: it might get philosophical.
This is from Marc Champion for Bloomberg yesterday:
Tsipras Isn’t on the Side of Democracy
Recently, I asked whether the Greek government actually wants to strike a deal on its debt, or if its increasingly erratic approach to negotiations might reflect a determination to ensure that Greeks blame their creditors, not their government, for a coming meltdown. [..] Here’s what Tsipras said in a statement about the abortive talks and current bailout:
“One can only suspect political motives behind the fact that the institutions insist on further pension cuts, despite five years of pillaging via the memoranda. The Greek government has been negotiating with a specific plan and documented proposals. We will wait patiently till the institutions adhere to realism.
Those who consider our sincere wish for a solution as well as our efforts to bridge the gap as a sign of weakness, should have in mind the following: We are not only carrying a historical past underlined with struggles. We are carrying our people’s dignity as well as the aspirations of all Europeans. We cannot ignore this responsibility. It is not a matter of ideological stubbornness. It has to do with democracy.”
Tsipras’s proposition that he’s championing the hope of downtrodden masses across Europe is nonsense. Germans may be wrong and unfair to prefer losing the loans they made Greece to taking a haircut, but they have a democratic right to believe they’re correct.
Really, Champion? Where do I start? How about “its increasingly erratic approach to negotiations”? At the very least, that doesn’t sound like a subjective view at all. It’s also completely off, but that’s another matter.
Syriza has stuck to what it said all along: negotiations are possible, but not about everything. Not about making a desperate people even more desperate. Not only is that useless and harmful to all parties involved in the talks, it’s also immoral. Granted, ‘immoral’ may be considered a subjective view too. Then again, it shouldn’t be.
But how sticking to your convictions qualifies as ‘erratic’, I simply don’t know. I presume that’s a subjective interpretation of what the author reads in the press. Maybe he never realized there were convictions in play, maybe he figured it was all just another political barter trade, two goats for a cow. It’s not.
Then, “championing the hope of downtrodden masses across Europe” is merely a frankly pretty stupid interpretation of Tsipras’ words. Who talks about “our people’s dignity” and “the aspirations of all Europeans”. Oh, and “democracy”. Why that needs to be translated as ‘downtrodden masses’ reveals a lot about who Champion is, but nothing about Tsipras. It’s just not what he says.
The last point is more interesting, and more cantankerous at the same time. Champion contends that Germans have the right to insist on Greek haircuts before they take losses on loans they made to Greece. And the right to “believe they’re correct” about whatever it is they believe.
Is that an attempt to turn democracy into a religion, or is it just me?
First off, Germans made no such loans to Greeks, not in the way they are consistently presented. Instead, their government insisted in 2010 on bailing out their own banks and have the Greek people pay for that bailout when it was crystal clear the Greeks wouldn’t be able to, let alone should.
If that is still not obvious, here’s the thing: it’s why we are where we are. If Merkel and Sarkozy had simply told their people what was really going on, we wouldn’t be in this mess. And they might have lost their office.
Bailouts of French banks were even more costly. Costly not to the French, but to the Greeks. And I’ll repeat myself again: that is and was a political decision, not an economic one. Which is the pivotal point in the entire Greek saga.
Thing is, this was never explained to the German or French people. Their media, and their politicians, have always persisted in maintaining the less-than-honest version. That is it was wasteful Greeks who were to blame, not German and French greedy well-connected bankers and their losing wagers.
Which leads to the question: if Germans have been consistently misled about the whole Greece issue, what exactly is the value of their “democratic right to believe they’re correct”? A phrase that sounds pretty absurd to begin with, mind you, if you read it more than once.
Is it that being lied to in and of itself is a ‘democratic right’, or is this about the right to draw -inevitably faulty- opinions based on those lies? How does that work? Honest, I don’t get it.
Do Bloomberg’s mostly American readers, after reading Champion’s obvious distortions of what Tsipras said, spiced with the author’s personal ‘opinions’, then also have a democratic right to judge Greece based on those words? I’m going to have to guess so.
But let’s get real: What does any of this have to do with democracy anymore? And, more importantly, where does it leave the democratic rights of the Greek people? Do they need to be fed lies too to participate in this game?
The Greek people have had no say in how Berlin and Paris presented the bailouts of their domestic banks to their respective homebase(s). All they have a say in is how Tsipras and Syriza stand up for them. That right there defines, and limits, their democratic rights. That’s all they got -left-. They have the right to elect a government that promises to take care of their interests, better than umpteen governments before them who didn’t.
How does that compare with the Germans’ alleged right to “believe they’re correct”? When all they’ve been fed is a greatly distorted version of what actually went down?
I couldn’t tell you if I wanted to.
I think what Champion says is that people have a democratic right to be wrong. But do they then also have the right to hurt others while exercising that ‘right’?
Doesn’t this put the onus on their governments and media? Do they have a democratic right to spread distorted information? If so, what is democracy, exactly? What is left of it if all that is valid?
I suggest you and I revisit this, and in the meantime I’m curious to see what you have to say about it. How do lies, distortions and subjective opinions relate to democracy? Is lying and distorting a democratic right, for politicians and journalists?
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Both the Media and the various western governments (and perhaps the Eastern governments as well) are nothing but pawns and tools of whatever you want to call the group of people seeking to build a one world government.
In order to do so, said people have to eliminate the differences between peoples, which they have been trying to do for a few decades now, but today it is becoming so egregious its getting really hard to ignore. For example, you have the EU which is attempting to eliminate the differences between European Peoples for the creation of a super state. Then, in the Western World, predominatly the USA and Rainbow Land (the EU) you have our nations getting flooded with 3rd Worlders without skill or trade to water down our cultures, bankrupt us, and make us all equally poor. Mind you this is all done in the name of "fairness" and is a theme habitually promulgated by the various Western governments and their media talking heads.
To steal a page out of Wolfie's book;
Throw those worthless, bloodsucking, lazy leach politicians & bankers* out of Brussels & Frankfurt already!
*Specifically excludes Jens Weidmann. He is doing God's work, so he can stay.
EDIT - Also fuck you Raul on another one of your Germophobic rants. If I could sell you into white slavery I would -- too bad there isn't much of a market for talentless homosexual "bloggers" in the Asian BDSM sex trade.
How do you know he's a homo? I've seen leftist journalists which are straight. You shouldn't judge the sexuality of people by their political bias. But I agree with the general direction of your edit :-).
BTW, part of the plan about the 3rd worlders you mention is that eventually they will ... VOTE. Does it ring a bell? We are having new legislation in that direction being enacted just now.
The third worlders will vote for Socialism -- the exact same thing that destroyed the third world shitholes they come from, as will the old people post collapse who failed to save intelligently for retirement -- and want the free shit from the .gov.
CA is going to let Illegeals vote sooner rather than later. Greece is fucked, and absent a Golden Dawn government in the near future, they really are screwed.
Personally I will abstain from voting for Nazi cunts. As long as I can.
You mean Hilary?
You understood this from the Nazi or from the other word? Or both?
I understand completely.
Perhaps you need to talk with more "right wing" organizations, such as Independent Greeks and get them to switch to a more anti-3rd world immigrant pro-educated immigrant position.
One of the biggest long term problems for Greece in the current crisis is the demographics, and the young and educated leaving for other countries, with the poor and uneducated remaining.
Haus, you are on fire here. I didn't know you had it in you. And from a self -professed government worker no less. Drive on. Play through. Yeeeha!
The rumor that I work for the SEC is just that -- a rumor.
I don't work for any .gov.
Independent Greeks are a bunch of parliament clowns. You wouldn't trust them to run a sausage stand.
To my mind the lie has got to you too and you are believing it. "Then, in the Western World, predominatly the USA and Rainbow Land (the EU) you have our nations getting flooded with 3rd Worlders without skill or trade to water down our cultures, bankrupt us, and make us all equally poor."
They may come from third world countries, but the majority of immigrants have money to get here, have to pass tests and background checks and possess a trade or profession the West is in need of. Then how often to engineers, doctors, and others have to do menial work as their qualifications are not recognized, so they have to go back to college to re learn what they already know to 'prove' they can do it.
There was an article a few years ago that even among those coming illegally, the majority surprisingly had at least a high school education.
The lie is that some are superior to others. The system is screwed up big time. People are without work as many refuse to do work they thing is beneath them, like pick crops in fields as the work is hard and pay low, so it is OK for the slaves to come in and perform them. Technology has taken a ton of work and corporations have found it less expensive and more productive to put their factories elsewhere.
You know who the hardest working people in the world are? Mexicans. There were a few studies that showed this. Having lived in Mexico previously I can say that is true. Six or seven day work weeks are common.
You have been lied to, so has everyone. After awhile the lie becomes true in people's minds. That is our biggest problem, recognizing the truth. Even in college exams and later putting a resume together, lies and cheating are becoming a way of life for many.
cherry,
I am not against immigration. If a doctor from the Sudan or an engineer from Haiti wants to move to Germany -- thats fantastic. Herzlich Willkommen!
However, these people coming over on boats with no skill or trade, and many times aren't even literate in their own language -- these are the people we do not want and the 3rd world invasion of which I speak.
EDIT - One last thing about Mexicans.
Yes, Mexican men are extremely hard workers. They work from early in the morning to late at night 6 days a week. Their work ethic is beyond reproach. They are not the problem. Their culture of "keep the women folk uneducated and at home with 6 kids" is the economic drain on the system.
You have a family (average low-income hispanic family in the United States has 4 kids) with 6 people, one of which is a hard worker, the other 5 don't work. They other 5 though go to school, access the medical system, the emergency services system, and are essentially wards of the state. These people are not living the high life, and their quality of life really sucks. I fully appreciate this. However, their sheer number is what makes the system unworkable.
Moreover in the Northern Mexican culture -- what makes you an adult is not buying a car, getting a job, going to college or graduating from high school -- its having a family. While commendable, they have taken it to an extreme, having kids at very young ages, which stunts their education and mobility to go where jobs are.
Get the Mexicans to have few kids and about 5-8 years later than they are right now - and they'll be the next group of Asians or Indians in the United States -- eating us alive.
When I lived in Mexico, there are quite a few ex patriots there. Many of them choose to live there as they cannot afford to live in the USA for the income they recieve. That is OK. However, you would be surprised how many are collecting .gov benefits because they are 'disabled'. They go back to the states to get free medicare and then go back to Mexico wait for checks to come in so they can get high or drunk.
They found a way to abuse the system and they do.
cherry we are humans after all, many illegals are good people. My problem is that they ignore the borders and the USA .gov does nothing to provide logical immigration control, no health checks, nothing a rational government would do to protect those living here. they do lower pay they do use wellfare and public services-
this is a basic duty of our .gov and they do not do it and create the social problems that a regulated border would help avoid. One wonders why .gov ignores this responsibility - bribes and NWO goals come to mind.
So instead of addressing the concerns I brought up, you essentially say "well I found white people abusing the social welfare state."
::confused look::
Sure people abuse the welfare state, but that isn't what I was talking about.
These Mexican families aren't abusing the welfare state by existing. They aren't abusing the welfare state at all. The numbers are what make the system unworkable. Thus the solution is either increase funding for the social welfare state, reduce payouts for everyone in the social welfare state, or fucking lock down the border to thus cut the tsunami of people coming over for the social welfare state. I don't blame them from coming. I've seen Juarez, and know its a shithole. The problem is -- given the opporunity -- almost everyone from the 3rd world would come to the US if they had the opportunity. The US cannot take another 60 million 3rd worlders -- much less 6 billion. If we don't get this shit under control in the next decade, you'll be pressing 2 for English.
Their culture prevents education via having a family as early as possible, and it prohibits women from becomign educated and entering the workforce, because its a patriarchy & someone has to stay home with their kids. Thus for a group of 6 people (plug parents and grandparents, and given the early birthrate great and great-great grandparents are common) you will have one working. Factor in the extended family, for 60 people -- you'Ve got 10 working. About 35 of them are kids and go to school, another 5-6 of them are stay-at-home moms, and another 15 are elderly who require extensive medical care.
Just like other very Catholic groups -- they do not believe in contraception, thus they have lots of kids.
The culture is what makes them as a workforce a loss making group of people -- not the work ethic of the minority of people from their culture that do in fact work.
TL;DR
Your strawman sucks. Try again.
Ahem, "expat" doesn't stand for ex patriot. Try "expatriate".
cherry you are canadian? right?..well in usa we do not test someone who comes across the southern border as they come in the dead of night, are never seen until they settle in some usa city..legal immigration is what your are talking and it is 20 million or more illegal (who knows we don't check them in) vs 1 million legal so called, who then over stay visas and become illegal. you post often here I expected better from you.
I lived in CA for a number of years.
Many people I know hired 'illlegals' for domestic work, yard work, car repairs and construction remodeling projects.
My friend who was a highly decorated Vietnam war vet was looked after n his dying days from ALS by an illegal. She was brought here when 14 years of old and had a American daughter. She provided him loving care at a cost they could afford.
Yes, I know what you are talking about, but when you look at some of the cities in the area, Compton, Watts and others, the problem is much bigger than illegals.
I think it was Pete Wilson, I don't remember which and many others who had illegals in their employ. If they were that bad, why would the 1% hire them?
There are over 50 million illegals, of this I'm very confident, and though they illegally gave most of them amnesty, that doesn't mean they are legal.
Welcome to Amexica, because I assure you that they have overtaken MANY cities in the USA. (45-65+% Hispanic Cities)
Best response/comment I have read in a long time HT.
Vielen herzlichen Dank! (Many thanks!)
"people have a democratic right to be wrong."
what do you mean a democratic right to be right or wrong?
it has nothing to do with democracy.
people are 'right or wrong' by the very nature of their opinions as judged by the comparison with other opinions.
and all of this is opinion, point of view, agenda.
...and M. C.'s agenda is too earn a living at Bloomberg so he follows Bloomberg's agenda.
it has nothing to do with 'democratic right'. the argument is specious and so is M.C.
In plain and simple words, democracy has left the building long time ago. It's just a fad people use to supress other nations/individuals who do not engage in the same endeavour as "I" or "we" do, which in this case is the Glory and Might of the West. A F joke all together.
My impression is that the International Monetary Fund has walked away from the proceedings to try and avoid blame if things should go wrong in the future. But since the IMF's own research department has admitted that its policies have made the predicament of the Greeks even worse, Syriza is very much justified in stating that the IMF is complicit in this affair.
Yes, but the point of the article, aside from side issues was:
[The] media, and their politicians, [are] persist[ing]in [presenting] the less-than-honest version. [A generous interpretation, IMO.]
"Democracy" is not possible with leadership twisting the facts. And, these facts are so twisted to benefit the "institutions" that there is no opportunity for "Democracy" to function.
Although we all recognize that pols and the media have been twisting and spinning since before Rome, it is good to see it laid out on this particular issue in an exact form. This was well done.
How the post was seized and recast to be about immigrants and all that crap is beyond me...
Everyone has an agenda.
game theory in action. if you are negotiating you cannot blink. IMF did not blink when they "walked away"..that was tactic. there is a deadline and it behooves everyone who is staying in to the end to up the ante, crank up the bravado and the rhetoric. that is what all parties are now engaged in. drahgi, tsiras, schäuble, laguarde.
no one wants the big BOOM but they need to position themselves as though they are willing to accept that eventuality.
no one wants the big BOOM but they need to position themselves as though they are willing to accept that eventuality.
Care to wager?
Greece is worthy of destruction for entering into a contract which was fraudulent.
Germany is worthy of destruction because of offering a fraud to their citizens.
The European Union is worthy of destruction for basing a currency upon FRAUD and corruption.
The United States is worthy of destruction, as well, as England, France, Russia, China, et al.
YES I WANT THE DESTRUCTION OF FRAUD AND CORRUPTION.
Nobody wants this "big Boom"??? (I would have called it a big BUST myself.)
Even positioning themselves as though they are willing to accept a Greece default IS A FUCKING LIE.
If nobody wants this then maybe they should not have created this fraudulent and corrupt paradigm in the first place. There are consequences.
And you, personally, are MOST DESERVING of the CONSEQUENCES as your transference of your own personal attitude upon everybody else demonstrate your love for DISHONESTY.
You are INVESTED into maintaining this STATUS QUO.
As for me I will place my principles before that of profits.
Collapse, baby, collapse!!!
Many people think democracy began in Ancient Greece, but in fact, the actual Anglo-Saxon traditions of voting and of folk assemblies deciding local issues and crimes by juries of peers all come from their ancient Germanic tribal past. The Roman historian Tacitus makes this clear.
Ancient Germanics required that all voting members of the folk assembly called the Thing should bring spears with them. If a man had no weapon, he was not eligible to vote at the Thing.
If you really want a vote, bring a weapon. True democracy requires collateral measured in blood.
Weak minds breed weak governance.
--Arnold
(I can't bring my knife across state lines and will not be attending.)
What the fuck is a "democratic right"? Does it allow an elected leader to claim that he can hire more people for the state, increase state salaries and pensions, force businesses to increase salaries as well, force the taxpayers to pay more every year in order to feed his happy voters, shut down all (admittedly biased) media by forcing them to buy licenses which they cannot afford, and re-open the state TV to spit out the daily propaganda when the money to do all these things is simply not there, and it will not be magically created even if Greece reneges on 100% of its debt? Maybe these are not "lies" because Tsipras serves Raul's agenda better?
How do you put the "democratic right" in an Excel formula when the numbers simply don't add up?
"How do lies, distortions and subjective opinions relate to democracy? Is lying and distorting a democratic right, for politicians and journalists?"
Exactly. They don't relate to democracy. Lying is not a democratic right, but it is the "democratic" method of choice for all the puppets involved in our story.
And before you continue fucking up with the term, there are several things that "democracy" was about in Ancient Greece which are missing from its current applications. There was "ostracism" as an example (look it up) which enabled the citizens to simply get rid of one parasite each year. If this was applied today, I don't think any of the current party leaders would have avoided it. And several other details you can find if you study the history of the term, which would be considered "barbarous" today.
So just forget about democracy. As BurningBetty said, it's left the building long time ago.
Funny really. Greece, Italy, Belgium, Spain were only able to join the Euro in 2001 because Germany and France had violated the Stability & Growth Pact and not been punished. They then changed the system in 2005 to excuse their inability to meet Maastricht Criteria and that excused Greece and Portugal. So the German and French banks could pile into these countries with easy credit and mega loans with the implicit backing of their own sovereign governments underwriting everything..........and they did......when Greece folded, the French and Germans found a refinancing package for their banks and loaded the debts onto taxpayers in Europe just as Hank Paulson and George Bush loaded it onto the US taxpayer through QE and TARP
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/07/germany-government-debt.html
We need to get real folks! The problem is democracy. A good definition of democracy is freedom by consensus. In other words, if I get more people to agree with me then you have no rights. If you want fairness then you have to dispense with democracy and make the right of the individual immutable. What do I mean? That no one has the power to take my freedom by a feat vote or consensus. At the most basic level, that's the problem.
The Greeks made one bad decision after the other. You see with freedom, comes personal accountability. In a free republic you have immutable rights that no one can take from you. However, if you kill and rob someone else you loose your freedom. The Greeks should have rejected living above their means. They should have removed the bankers who clearly had only their own interest at heart. No! The Greeks not only did not considered the consequences but they joined the party. If only by consensus. This is the problem with democracies. The citizens of a country that is democratic have to abide by what the mob wants. Even when such actions are destructive and dangerous.
You want to be really honest, why did the Greeks allowed themselves to be in this predicament? Because taking the money is always easier than paying it back. This shows a lack of personal responsibility which is always the trademark of a mob.
So now we're looking for someone to blame. A victim of the oppressive government that sucks their life blood. Sorry, I say you created the problem when you allowed the con-artists to set you up. Don't go asking for fairness because you did not stop and think of the consequences of your actions. But now that you are saddle with the burden of debt, you want to scream foul.
It does not mattered if you were duped into the situation that you're in. You took the money, you pay the price. You see, it is not about democracy, it is about ethical behavior and good moral grounding. If you want freedom then you have to work hard to get it and keep it. There is no free anything! As the old saying go, "You pays me know, or You pays me later"
That's not a good definition. Didn't read any further.
Rule by mob is no better.
Couple of moar coffees and a danish and I will be around to give you a reasonable if pointless, argument.
In other words, if I get more people to agree with me then you have no rights.
Your definition of democracy is totally off - try Jefferson's
The protection provided by this principle applies fundamentally, of course, in favor of a minority of one: The Individual. No majority, however great even all of the people but one Individual--may properly infringe, or possess the power to infringe, the rights of any minority, however small--even a minority of a lone Individual.
Like Arnold below- having destroyed your credibility with the opening definition- I read no further
What motivates Jack Lew to say pulicly to Alexis Tsipras, " get serious"? Lew is meddling in a sovereign's affair and he's meddling not for the protection of the US taxpayer but for the protection of his controllers at the Federal Reserve. Unfortunately for the common American taxpayer that's a canary in a coalmine signal.
they spent money they didn't have. no tuesday hamberger today. hungry peoples do irrational things. welcome to a new western reality. hungry plebs that voted the party line-a free lunch on the backs of the workers that have/had a job, whilst the ruling class steal, lie and remain farting in silk. when the plebs ransack the mansions then justice will have been served, until then plebs will be plebs, only now hungry with no tuesday hamberger. it gets interesting from here. print that burger mutha fuckers i'm hungry...
The Greeks are free to do what the F they want.
Just not with other people's money anymore.
Truth AND Consequences .... too many spoiled socialist brats are told they are exempt !
"unspoiled socialist brats" ?!
Of course you mean:
"sock puppets and their owners",
"unrepentent trolls and their mindless masters",
"banksters and their crime-prone lawyers",
"psychopaths and their grand delusions", ....
The freedom to tell lies. And we wonder why they hate our freedom?
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Anyone found trying to "champion" the cause of the downtrodden across Europe or anyplace else, is paid to pull a scam over on the masses. Were he to dare do this on his own accord, he would be found dead "by his own hand."
Raul, ze Germans have the right to insist on whatever they want,
and on the other hand the Greeks have the right to violate a contract they signed and then take the punishment for contract violators as spelled out in the contract itself or in basic contract law, insofar as it is enforceable in/on Greece at all. And the Germans will need to live with any fallout from that.
It always takes two to Tango.
Freedom of conscience means that you do have a right to believe you are correct. This belief may end up damaging you if it is wrong, but it is your right to hold it to the bitter end. It is not your right to demand anything of anything else based on your own belief.
Yes, IMO all these things are a democratic right.
It goes deeper than that, it goes into theology and why 'god' allowed 'evil' to be. Which IMO comes down to 'free will'. Without the will to choose between good and evil we would be automatons.
However, in a fair system of governance that emphasizes a relative neutrality. The limits of freedom of expression are the incitement of violence, and also the causing of real world harm to others.
It comes down to other thoughts I am synchronistically having at the moment. That in order to 'lie' over more basic matters we have to have links to negativity. So if someone supports a political party that is unknowingly controlling to the person (fascistic) then it is their refusal to behave with ethics in the rest of their lives that is influencing this blindness. It is complex which is why I will need a blog to properly explain it.
I have met a few on the semi hard left whom are unfaithful or have been. There is a bit of a correlation here between 'looking after' leftist teacher kind of thinking. And unthinking lefty that hates truth a little, politics.
Mapping how one thing relates to the other in the unaware is something I naturally have done a little of, one of the common ones of the cult left is 'shock doctrine - global warming - atheist'
Based on this if the 'real' crimes were dealt with (large scale suppression I.e. of the space program and technology, paedophilia, banking fraud etc.) there would be little opportunity for lies to prevail.