This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Greek Debt Committee Just Declared All Debt To The Troika "Illegal, Illegitimate, And Odious"
It was in April when we got a stark reminder of a post we first penned in April of 2011, describing Odious Debt, and why we thought sooner or later this legal term would become applicable for Greece, because two months ago Greek Zoi Konstantopoulou, speaker of the Greek parliament and a SYRIZA member, said she had established a new "Truth Committee on Public Debt" whose purposes was to "investigate how much of the debt is “illegal” with a view to writing it off."
Moments ago, this committee released its preliminary findings, and here is the conclusion from the full report presented below:
All the evidence we present in this report shows that Greece not only does not have the ability to pay this debt, but also should not pay this debt first and foremost because the debt emerging from the Troika’s arrangements is a direct infringement on the fundamental human rights of the residents of Greece. Hence, we came to the conclusion that Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.
As we predicted over four years ago, Greece has effectively just declared that it will no longer have to default on its IMF (or any other debt - note that the dreaded "Troika" word finally makes an appearance after it was officially banned) simply because that debt was not legal to begin with, i.e. it was "odious."
If so, this has just thrown a very unique wrench in the spokes of not only the Greek debt negotiations, but all other peripheral European nations' Greek negotiations, who will promptly demand that their debt be, likewise, declared odious, and made null and void, thus washing their hands of servicing it again.
And another question: when Greece says the debt was illegal and it no longer has to make the June 30 payment, what will be the Troika's response: confiscate Greek assets a la Argentina, declare involutnary default, sue it in the Hague?
Good luck.
From the full just released report by the Hellenic Parliament commission:
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee Preliminary Findings - Executive Summary of the report
In June 2015 Greece stands at a crossroad of choosing between furthering the failed macroeconomic adjustment programmes imposed by the creditors or making a real change to break the chains of debt. Five years since the economic adjustment programmes began, the country remains deeply cemented in an economic, social, democratic and ecological crisis. The black box of debt has remained closed, and until now no authority, Greek or international, has sought to bring to light the truth about how and why Greece was subjected to the Troika regime. The debt, in whose name nothing has been spared, remains the rule through which neoliberal adjustment is imposed, and the deepest and longest recession experienced in Europe during peacetime.
There is an immediate need and social responsibility to address a range of legal, social and economic issues that demand proper consideration. In response, the Hellenic Parliament established the Truth Committee on Public Debt in April 2015, mandating the investigation into the creation and growth of public debt, the way and reasons for which debt was contracted, and the impact that the conditionalities attached to the loans have had on the economy and the population. The Truth Committee has a mandate to raise awareness of issues pertaining to the Greek debt, both domestically and internationally, and to formulate arguments and options concerning the cancellation of the debt.
The research of the Committee presented in this preliminary report sheds light on the fact that the entire adjustment programme, to which Greece has been subjugated, was and remains a politically orientated programme. The technical exercise surrounding macroeconomic variables and debt projections, figures directly relating to people’s lives and livelihoods, has enabled discussions around the debt to remain at a technical level mainly revolving around the argument that the policies imposed on Greece will improve its capacity to pay the debt back. The facts presented in this report challenge this argument.
All the evidence we present in this report shows that Greece not only does not have the ability to pay this debt, but also should not pay this debt first and foremost because the debt emerging from the Troika’s arrangements is a direct infringement on the fundamental human rights of the residents of Greece. Hence, we came to the conclusion that Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.
It has also come to the understanding of the Committee that the unsustainability of the Greek public debt was evident from the outset to the international creditors, the Greek authorities, and the corporate media. Yet, the Greek authorities, together with some other governments in the EU, conspired against the restructuring of public debt in 2010 in order to protect financial institutions. The corporate media hid the truth from the public by depicting a situation in which the bailout was argued to benefit Greece, whilst spinning a narrative intended to portray the population as deservers of their own wrongdoings.
Bailout funds provided in both programmes of 2010 and 2012 have been externally managed through complicated schemes, preventing any fiscal autonomy. The use of the bailout money is strictly dictated by the creditors, and so, it is revealing that less than 10% of these funds have been destined to the government’s current expenditure.
This preliminary report presents a primary mapping out of the key problems and issues associated with the public debt, and notes key legal violations associated with the contracting of the debt; it also traces out the legal foundations, on which unilateral suspension of the debt payments can be based. The findings are presented in nine chapters structured as follows:
Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself.
Adopting the euro led to a drastic increase of private debt in Greece to which major European private banks as well as the Greek banks were exposed. A growing banking crisis contributed to the Greek sovereign debt crisis. George Papandreou’s government helped to present the elements of a banking crisis as a sovereign debt crisis in 2009 by emphasizing and boosting the public deficit and debt.
Chapter 2, Evolution of Greek public debt during 2010-2015, concludes that the first loan agreement of 2010, aimed primarily to rescue the Greek and other European private banks, and to allow the banks to reduce their exposure to Greek government bonds.
Chapter 3, Greek public debt by creditor in 2015, presents the contentious nature of Greece’s current debt, delineating the loans’ key characteristics, which are further analysed in Chapter 8.
Chapter 4, Debt System Mechanism in Greece reveals the mechanisms devised by the agreements that were implemented since May 2010. They created a substantial amount of new debt to bilateral creditors and the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF), whilst generating abusive costs thus deepening the crisis further. The mechanisms disclose how the majority of borrowed funds were transferred directly to financial institutions. Rather than benefitting Greece, they have accelerated the privatization process, through the use of financial instruments.
Chapter 5, Conditionalities against sustainability, presents how the creditors imposed intrusive conditionalities attached to the loan agreements, which led directly to the economic unviability and unsustainability of debt. These conditionalities, on which the creditors still insist, have not only contributed to lower GDP as well as higher public borrowing, hence a higher public debt/GDP making Greece’s debt more unsustainable, but also engineered dramatic changes in the society, and caused a humanitarian crisis. The Greek public debt can be considered as totally unsustainable at present.
Chapter 6, Impact of the “bailout programmes” on human rights, concludes that the measures implemented under the “bailout programmes” have directly affected living conditions of the people and violated human rights, which Greece and its partners are obliged to respect, protect and promote under domestic, regional and international law. The drastic adjustments, imposed on the Greek economy and society as a whole, have brought about a rapid deterioration of living standards, and remain incompatible with social justice, social cohesion, democracy and human rights.
Chapter 7, Legal issues surrounding the MOU and Loan Agreements, argues there has been a breach of human rights obligations on the part of Greece itself and the lenders, that is the Euro Area (Lender) Member States, the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and theInternational Monetary Fund, who imposed these measures on Greece. All these actors failed to assess the human rights violations as an outcome of the policies they obliged Greece to pursue, and also directly violated the Greek constitution by effectively stripping Greece of most of its sovereign rights. The agreements contain abusive clauses, effectively coercing Greece to surrender significant aspects of its sovereignty. This is imprinted in the choice of the English law as governing law for those agreements, which facilitated the circumvention of the Greek Constitution and international human rights obligations. Conflicts with human rights and customary obligations, several indications of contracting parties acting in bad faith, which together with the unconscionable character of the agreements, render these agreements invalid.
Chapter 8, Assessment of the Debts as regards illegtimacy, odiousness, illegality, and unsustainability, provides an assessment of the Greek public debt according to the definitions regarding illegitimate, odious, illegal, and unsustainable debt adopted by the Committee.
Chapter 8 concludes that the Greek public debt as of June 2015 is unsustainable, since Greece is currently unable to service its debt without seriously impairing its capacity to fulfill its basic human rights obligations. Furthermore, for each creditor, the report provides evidence of indicative cases of illegal, illegitimate and odious debts.
Debt to the IMF should be considered illegal since its concession breached the IMF’s own statutes, and its conditions breached the Greek Constitution, international customary law, and treaties to which Greece is a party. It is also illegitimate, since conditions included policy prescriptions that infringed human rights obligations. Finally, it is odious since the IMF knew that the imposed measures were undemocratic, ineffective, and would lead to serious violations of socio-economic rights.
Debts to the ECB should be considered illegal since the ECB over-stepped its mandate by imposing the application of macroeconomic adjustment programs (e.g. labour market deregulation) via its participation in the Troïka. Debts to the ECB are also illegitimate and odious, since the principal raison d’etre of the Securities Market Programme (SMP) was to serve the interests of the financial institutions, allowing the major European and Greek private banks to dispose of their Greek bonds.
The EFSF engages in cash-less loans which should be considered illegal because Article 122(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) was violated, and further they breach several socio-economic rights and civil liberties. Moreover, the EFSF Framework Agreement 2010 and the Master Financial Assistance Agreement of 2012 contain several abusive clauses revealing clear misconduct on the part of the lender. The EFSF also acts against democratic principles, rendering these particular debts illegitimate and odious.
The bilateral loans should be considered illegal since they violate the procedure provided by the Greek constitution. The loans involved clear misconduct by the lenders, and had conditions that contravened law or public policy. Both EU law and international law were breached in order to sideline human rights in the design of the macroeconomic programmes. The bilateral loans are furthermore illegitimate, since they were not used for the benefit of the population, but merely enabled the private creditors of Greece to be bailed out. Finally, the bilateral loans are odious since the lender states and the European Commission knew of potential violations, but in 2010 and 2012 avoided to assess the human rights impacts of the macroeconomic adjustment and fiscal consolidation that were the conditions for the loans.
The debt to private creditors should be considered illegal because private banks conducted themselves irresponsibly before the Troika came into being, failing to observe due diligence, while some private creditors such as hedge funds also acted in bad faith. Parts of the debts to private banks and hedge funds are illegitimate for the same reasons that they are illegal; furthermore, Greek banks were illegitimately recapitalized by tax-payers. Debts to private banks and hedge funds are odious, since major private creditors were aware that these debts were not incurred in the best interests of the population but rather for their own benefit.
The report comes to a close with some practical considerations. Chapter 9, Legal foundations for repudiation and suspension of the Greek sovereign debt, presents the options concerning the cancellation of debt, and especially the conditions under which a sovereign state can exercise the right to unilateral act of repudiation or suspension of the payment of debt under international law.
Several legal arguments permit a State to unilaterally repudiate its illegal, odious, and illegitimate debt. In the Greek case, such a unilateral act may be based on the following arguments: the bad faith of the creditors that pushed Greece to violate national law and international obligations related to human rights; preeminence of human rights over agreements such as those signed by previous governments with creditors or the Troika; coercion; unfair terms flagrantly violating Greek sovereignty and violating the Constitution; and finally, the right recognized in international law for a State to take countermeasures against illegal acts by its creditors , which purposefully damage its fiscal sovereignty, oblige it to assume odious, illegal and illegitimate debt, violate economic self-determination and fundamental human rights. As far as unsustainable debt is concerned, every state is legally entitled to invoke necessity in exceptional situations in order to safeguard those essential interests threatened by a grave and imminent peril. In such a situation, the State may be dispensed from the fulfilment of those international obligations that augment the peril, as is the case with outstanding loan contracts. Finally, states have the right to declare themselves unilaterally insolvent where the servicing of their debt is unsustainable, in which case they commit no wrongful act and hence bear no liability.
People’s dignity is worth more than illegal, illegitimate, odious and unsustainable debt
Having concluded a preliminary investigation, the Committee considers that Greece has been and still is the victim of an attack premeditated and organized by the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission. This violent, illegal, and immoral mission aimed exclusively at shifting private debt onto the public sector.
Making this preliminary report available to the Greek authorities and the Greek people, the Committee considers to have fulfilled the first part of its mission as defined in the decision of the President of Parliament of 4 April 2015. The Committee hopes that the report will be a useful tool for those who want to exit the destructive logic of austerity and stand up for what is endangered today: human rights, democracy, peoples’ dignity, and the future of generations to come.
In response to those who impose unjust measures, the Greek people might invoke what Thucydides mentioned about the constitution of the Athenian people: "As for the name, it is called a democracy, for the administration is run with a view to the interests of the many, not of the few” (Pericles’ Funeral Oration, in the speech from Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War).
»
- 223893 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Greeks are the new Icelandic
CORRECTION:
The Greeks who fled, to less corrupt pastures are the new Iceland.
The operation of the hellenic republic has been much like a cancer operation in reverse...where they cut out all the healthy tissue and leave a giant, corrupt, cancerous mass.
The same would be true of the US, EU, Russia, and China...if only there were some place to flee to.
Give it time...it will be true. That it's all relative to time and condition is the point. Now it may not be a better option to go elsewhere for "most" (although you do see more US giving up citizenship than in years past), but if (or when) conditions get worse, the "other places" option will seem better by degree. Germany around the turn of the 20th c. was a great place to be for most people there...then it wasn't for a large number of people there...and then it depended on which part of Germany you were in...and then it was pretty good in total for most people living there.
Now...aaahhh...it could go either way really.
I went to my banker the other day to inquire about a loan. He only had three questions for me.
1. Have you ever defaulted on a mortgage?
2. Have you ever had a vehicle repossessed due to non-payment?
3. Have you ever declared a debt illegal and odious?
Sidebar:
I feel a tsunami of illegal and odious student debt cancellation coming on.
I think all credit card debt is odious.
I am beginning to see how we can bring about a Debt Jubilee. Declare all debt odious, wipe it out, start over. It's our human right.
When debt is between 2 people, it's one thing. But when debt gets 'sold', repackaged and rehypothecated to where its origins are lost, it has no moral claim to payment. If the original lender doesn't want to deal with the debt anymore, let him write it off. But this 'marketing and selling of debt' is asinine.
There is some point to this argumentt. Greece is -in form at least- a parliamentary democracy. On matters involving sovereignty and involving a radical change to a political and economic system that evolved over decades, the leaders of Greece should have put the demands of the Troika up to a referendum by the people of Greece, as well as a couple of alternatives for doing so.
We know that Germany and ECB threw a fit when this was first proposed in 2010. They did again recently, when Tsipras suggested that whatever deal was reached should be put up for referendum. We have reasonably good data from surveys taken during the course of this crisis, that Greeks in general were opposed to the austerity imposed upon them throughout this period.
A government which governs without the consent of the governed, is not legitimate.
We Americans should keep this in mind. The time may come when an unholy alliance of "Occupiers" and "Tea Partiers" may be in a position to negate all the trade treaties and tax subsidies, and the domestic security apparatus as well, which have ruined America for the most of us.
I get it...but I'm confused by the "unholy" label when what comes out of it seems good.
The extreme left and the extreme right don't yet realize the outrage at corporate excess by one and the outrage at big government excess by the other is actually outrage at one and the same beast. But, since each extreme galvanizes around social values that are opposed to each other, they are never going to like each other. Hence: "unholy".
Cool!
I'm gonna try that with my Mastercard and Visa accounts.
CREDIT CARDS in the UK are UNSECURED LOANS.
The operative word in this case is UNSECURED.
The Bankers from the get go knew that Greece could not ever be able to pay back any of these loans-but like the greedy bankers who let unemployed people borrow as much as the wanted to by houses here in the US, the REAL motive was to have a "LOAN ASSET" in thier portfolio, and the interest payments rolling in. I am not sorry for the bankers in the least; Nobody ever called Iceland "lazy bums"
Those Greeks like to talk, it is time to fish or cut bait!
Get busy living, or get busy dying.
"All currencies today is IOU Nothings."
"You can imagine the inflationary possibilities of a system of national currencies backed by who-owes-you- nothings. You heard yesterday of the mindless manner in which it was decided to create the first 91?2 billion of them. At the appointed time they were created in an instant on an IMF computer."
"To exchange an I-owe-you-nothing into a who- owes-you-nothing is just exchanging one piece of paper for another, and most likely a less desirable one at that. To call that convertibility is to make a mockery of the word. Convertibility into gold imposes discipline because gold is scarce. Exchange of paper for paper is no discipline at all. I do not have confidence that any international monetary authority would keep SDRs scarce."
"Even in such a world people must pay their debts, but as debt grows ever more rapidly the total debt burden becomes ever more onerous, even though it is denominated in IOU-nothings. The hard fact of economic life today is that some sizeable segment of that debt burden cannot be paid, and must ultimately be liquidated before international monetary reconstruction begins. "
Jhon Exter, Future of Gold and The International Monetary System* 1973
Two Alternatives:
1. Sell off every asset in Greece to Goldman Sachs. Have every person in the country between ages of 18 to 60 become a Prostitute. Turn every commercial property into a Brothel or a Casino. Change the name from Greece to "Pleasure Island".
2. Default and walk away.
I find the concept of "odious debt" very interesting...
There are vast amounts of debt taken on by so-called democratically elected governments which was either not in the best interest of their respective populations and never explicitly authorised or mandated during any election campaign or was plain irresponsible and extremely partisan. I would apply this to the US and UK for starters.
Could this be the starter-gun for the Big Reset? Where citizens reject these debts and tell the lenders to get phukced?
Yup I don't ever recall receiving one thin dime of TARP, EESA, TALF, FSP, CPP, CAP, SCAP, SSFIP anyone else?
The global stall.
A reset would be lovely as a cancer operation.
The problem is one of point of view.
Is the surgeon an intelligent tumor? Or cancer-free?
"This violent, illegal, and immoral mission aimed exclusively at shifting private debt onto the public sector."
That's damn right, this is all about protecting the bond bubble. not to mention the derivates BUBBLE. Go Greece!
That line stuck out to me as the best as well.
This is like watching a retarded high school couple fighting.
"I might leave."
"Well go ahead and leave."
"Maybe I will."
"Maybe you should."
"Then I will."
"Then do it."
"I will"
"No you won't."
"I already did. It's done."
"Nope, we're still together."
"Not for long."
"How long?"
"Maybe right now."
The only solution is to nuke every single city in Europe. Then we'll figure out a solution to the debt thing.
Did this jsut get real? Why not send Adolph Merkel a bill, damages plus interest, on ther costs her Nazi relatives put on Greece's tab during Word War - The Sequel
Call it even steven.
I guess that settles it.
Throw those pathetic bankers into a grease fire already.
This is a message on behalf of the Hellenic people around the world: FUCK YOU MALAKA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
With a bit of luck the talking is about to end and the "negotiations" will take on a new twist.
'BOUT TIME TOO.
You have 10 seconds to tell me everything that's good about the EU.
FUCK 'EM.
The academics claim it was designed to keep the continent from having disastrous wars again...and yet they stay mum as the members get treaties so similar to Versailles.
PhDs have the most perfectly selective memories and an acute ability to rationalize anything. History actually tells us that too. I like to mention to my co-workers, you ever think about how often "scientists" and "doctors" seemed to be all too happy to rationalize totalitarianism (Stalin, Hitler, etc.)? Why do you think that is?
The Three Amigos not wanting to encourage other slave nations to rise up claiming similar criminal activities will now offer the Greeks everything they want - good old USA will direct the EU not to engage in battle but rather one of appeasement - Greece under no circumstances will be allowed to leave the union - nobody wants to open that can of worms - especially when Putin might benefit - at the end of the day Greece will get what it wants and will stay put.
Doesn't matter if Greece stays or not, the can of worms is already openend.
Any deal Greece now gets will also have to be given to Spain, Italy, Portugal etc.
Undoable.
The only option left for the EU is to try to crush Greece completely now.
Good luck with that.
Russian President Vladimir Putin will meet with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and other foreign leaders in the framework of the International Economic Forum in St. Petersburg, the president’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Tuesday.
A working meeting has been scheduled with Alexis Tsipras on Friday, June 19, 2015
Well...
They made deals for years with the Ukrainians.
It is like talking into the mirror. You get great expressions of sympathy, but doubt much real information is communicated in either direction.
Odipus debt ?
He's not going to pay back. Perhaps his mum will.
Good start but it is meaningless unless prohibition of paying illegal/odious Troika loans passed into law. If Greece was sovereign it would mean war with EU. Unfortunately it seems to be only negotiating ploy. Unless former Greek officials are arrested and Army expenditure cut. Let's see.
Great news! I'll max out my credit card and declare it odious.
TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY! You make that decision on your own. The Greeks didn't individually sign up for the bailout deals on their own. And they were duped. You maxing your CC is your own fucking problem...
Oh but the Greeks DID MAKE THE DECISION. By CHOOSING to live off the government and CHOOSING to live above thier means. Still to this very day the vast majority of Greeks want to stay in the EU. Cognitive Dissonance personified.
"Oh but the Greeks DID MAKE THE DECISION. By CHOOSING to live off the government and CHOOSING to live above thier means"...
I'm confused...didn't the U.S. government also choose to live above its means? Or did someone force that $18 trillion national debt on them?
Confused? It just means the US is just as fucked eventually. That is what all governments do.
Break out the KY!
Kentucky? I agree ;-)
still having a problem with the one-track mind?
When this thing finally goes down, Germany is going to confiscate all their goats and re-hypotheticate.
At least Greece is still rich in audacity and arrogance.
I hope the European nations which have been supplying Greece with money year after year
take Greece for all it's got and leave a scorched earth behind.
"I hope the POLITICIANS and BANKERS in the other European nations which have been supplying Greece with debt instuments called money, in the names of their own people, to bail out the banks that acted recklessly in giving TROIKA picked Greek technocrats the money in the first place to indebt the Greek people...
take Greece for all it's got and leave a scorched earth behind."
Fixed that for ya.
LOL...the rest of Europe's not pissed at Greece for not paying, they're pissed at Greece for opening the shades and letting all that disinfecting sunshine in...
Enter BRICS proxy attack on Western central banking hegemony. Greece in good hands.
If it's truly illegal, when are they going to start arresting their domestic GS employees and set about international arrest warrants for the rest of the GS establishment to start with?
We'll see if they're really serious about that "birthplace of Democracy" thing.
Oh yeah, they don't have a reserve currency and MIC to whore out.
That wouldn't be "Greek".
The ones who got away with it are the heroes to Greeks, not the perps.
One of the reasons Greeks justify not paying taxes.
"If you're a criminal, I can be one to and we both live the Greek life"
live the Greek life...
There again, if their conclusions are true and these GS cobbled together "agreements" and extensions are as bad as they claim, i.e. causing subhuman living conditions, then start the perp walks. It can't be too hard, the signatures of the guilty parties are located on the bottom of the agreements, aren't they? (Please don't tell me Linda Green was promoted to the International Desk.)
And why doesn't Greece take the lead in going to the Hague or who / whatever and put these scum on the defensive? I realize these scumsuckers in their quest for "certainty" have had plenty of time / experience in packing courts and controlling media exposure, but count me eternally optimistic, the truth must eventually prevail, shouldn't / won't it?
Hey!
I made the headlines!
Greece should do the Right Thing...
and immediately return the KEYSTROKES that created the debt.
Perhaps a Maidan II in Athens? What goes around comes around. But this time around its getting away from the EU. I wonder if they will have piles of burning tires in Athens with torch carrying neo-nazis? Maybe McCain and Nudelman can hand out cookies to the rioters!
Reading about the billion of dollars the Greek government has been paying to debt collectors over the last several months, if Greece knew that in the near term they were going to tell the troika to fuck off, why were they making those payments? It makes no sense.
They just needed the time.
I think technically they are not going to default now.
Uhhh
"human rights of Greeks"?
Bigger headline:
GREEKS DECLARE OTHER PEOPLES MONEY TO BE THEIR HUMAN RIGHT
Fuck the Greeks AND the bankers.
Umm... not so much for me.
Greeks are not the best example of fiscal responsibility but right now they're taking the point position against the banker looting and global fascism so I'm with them. So goes Greece, so goes everybody else. Looks like they're ready to cowboy up. This moment of truth had to happen somewhere, sometime.
Molon Labe, bitchez...
The European Union is just a den of theives.
Funny thing...A theif will not call the cops when he is the victim of a theft.
So Greece's theft could not have happened to a more deserving den of thieves.
Are you invested in this Fraud and corruption? What do you have to lose?
Personally I have no dog in this fight.
So I sit here, poke some fun at it, and watch how they are playing it as the FRAUD, CORRUPTION and DEATH paradigm is gasping its last dying breaths.
The people that it matters most to have invested into this.
And they deserve to lose everything...like you, perchance?
Are you in the Deadbeat Club?
Nope. I find it entertaining to watch though.
+1 Love everything you write Tall Tom.
Bravo Greece!
For all your hating assholes, shut up, because you're up next. Do you really think the fed is not comming for your benefits too? Peoples pensions and social benefits are next. It's the only place left to loot.
Already assumed I wouldn't be getting SS (I'm 28), and I'm not sure what pension you're talking about.
The government already spent all that on social program and bread and circuses for moronic voters here.
So I might be a "hating asshole" for calling Greece a fucking deadbeat that sold their citizens impossible to deliver promises, but those citizens themselves asked for this idiotic leadership in the first place.
Fuck their banana republic, and fuck anyone stupid enough to lend them money in the first place.
Let them drink olive oil. Greasy fucks.
Aha, but you will be getting your SS payments, based on no inflaion, those payments my buy you a tank full of gas or a carton on cigarettes.
Arrest them. Arrest Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon
FUCKIN' RIGHT ON!
"Let those who have eyes to see, see."
How much of the odious Greek debt is for loans to cover their bank's losses from the criminal creation and world-wide sales by America bankers of fraudulent subprime Mortgage Backed Securities?
Why are FIFA executives under indictment for bribes in the millions while American bankers continue to get bonuses for their theft of trillions?
Because the next World Cup is due to be held in Russia.
"the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries"
I'm calling BS on that. Since 1996 Greece has been in the top 95th percentil of biggest spenders. So, when were the years when this low spending took place?
According to the TradingEconomics.com data (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-spending-to-gdp) Greece has absolutely enormous government spending that has been absolutely enormous since at least 1996 or sooner. The only time the United States ever came close to any of Greece's years in spending as percent of GDP was the same time the economy went to hell in a handbasket in the few years after 2008 (source: USGovernmentSpending.com). Coincidence?
I'd love to know what zany metrics they made up to decide the Greece government wasn't spending big over the past decades.
Works for the rest of the world--why shouldn't it work for the Greeks? Go Greece!
The great irony is only visible once you critically examine what they're really arguing about.
The Euro, and all world currencies today, are NOTES of DISCRETIONARY value.
They are arguing about whose discretion sets the value under which circumstance.
Why would anyone pick protagonists and antagonists in such a crowd???
They are all thieves.
The EU & IMF, just like what Charlie Munger once said, should "suck it and cope".
ZIODIOUS USSA
"The Committee hopes that the report will be a useful tool for those who want to exit the destructive logic of austerity and stand up for what is endangered today: human rights, democracy, peoples’ dignity, and the future of generations to come."
Go Greece!!! Finally, the unsaid truth is being spoken loud and clear!
Notice how the cretins in the Democratic party never bad mouth O-sterity with the same guts as Syrizs.
Progtards in the tank for their corporate masters in the United State of Oligarchy
but the bastards took the money in the first place. how conveninet, when it's time to pay back.
Yeah, gee, no one else has ever done that...LOL...
for the most part it was the big banks who took the money. they bought debt that paid 20-30% or more interest and subsequently those bonds traded WAY up... those buyers made a fortune, while little of all that money actually ended up in greece, let alone with the man on the street.
Yes, a very big and elaborate con game.
Who took the money, the 95%ers or the 5%ers in cahoots with the lenders who wanted the interest for money they print out of nothing?
Your theory is too simplistic..
no, the bankers used illegal means to get Greece their first loan. All loans after that go back 99% to the bankers and 1% to Greece-aint interest a wonderful thing?
ALL loans were illigeitiment, accepted on behalf of UNELECTED Bankers waiting in the wings in "Greeks Central Bank"
I like the way the ECB created fake money out of thin air-lent it to Greece (forced it on them)and then the ECB just sits back and waits for the interest payments on thie phantom money to roll in-QUITE A SCAM
Criminals
I wonder how many of the people junking you are not paying their own debts?
BULLISH, DOW should hit 20,000 on that headline.
Sounds like Burgermeister "Toys (debts) are hereby declared illegal, immoral, unlawful AND anyone found with a toy (debt) in his possession will be placed under arrest and thrown in the dungeon"
I love the smellof burning big banks in the morning.
GREECE: This debt is illegal and odious.... even though we borrowed it so we could 0bama our citizens.
"Finally, states have the right to declare themselves unilaterally insolvent where the servicing of their debt is unsustainable, in which case they commit no wrongful act and hence bear no liability."
In other words: "Repayments? We ain't makin'no stinking repayments!"
I declare my debt, to the bank who holds my mortgage, now illegal. And any taxes owed by me , illegal. Of course Greece will would say that,,, who wouldn't?
Of course Greece will would say that,,, who wouldn't?...
You're right, it's great to be King. Just ask our (US'), Dear Leader. Do you really think we'll be able to pay off frn 18,000,000,000,000.00 and counting debt, yet alone the compounding interest without conscripting more than our existing poverty stricken youth into our voracious MIC being encouraged by their impoverished parents / guardians into a life normalized by first, "boot-camp", second, resource consuming-nonproductive rock polishing and ultimately into a zombie-like order following existence willing and able to pull the trigger on their next of kin?
And I'm an optimist.
And right they are. The money was created out of thin air anyway, so it didn't exist, so there is no debt.
Go Greeks!
You go tell the IMF Jews that shit, they have a different view.
By 2017 we will all see how TrumpSA will deal with its debts. The Donald always leaves his last name on everything he does, if he is POTUS I fully expect to see it renamed from USA to Trump States of America or United States of Trump. :)
He is going to sell New Jersey to the Chinese.
So does that mean he'll declare bankruptcy?
A love spat,
Each throwing things.
When do they kiss and make up?
When Tsipras puts on a tie and does what he's told
I think Tsipras should go to the next meeting with a 3 day old beard, flip flops and cargo shorts. And keep interrupting to say "Excuse me..." while he answers his cell phone.
Sorry to say it , but under the European law and international law. every thing that is in the full report is fact and will hold up in any of thoses courts. So in fact Greece in its own little way has pulled a Iceland and freed itself from the evil bankers.
Kind of like the Mississippi bond defaults of 1838. Thought the possibility of default was baked in to the interest rate charged?
Yet, yet, yet - ever shrewd Betfair betting exchange betting market currently showing probability of NO GREXIT in 2015 at 80%. (They know).
Take the long shot - they are toast
I sure would not bet that they will exit.
Earlier in this chain, I just jokingly alluded to the IMF giving them another laoan to pay the last loan. It may be insanity, but theyu really cannot afford to hand Greece over to the Soviets. Nor can they afford to let them just slip away and become the poster child for the rest of the PIIGS.
If, in fact, the Greeks are not bluffing and are prepared to give the EU the middle finger, then watch the EU blink. Truly a game of brinksmanship with enormous economic and strategic stakes.
Uh, darling? There ARE NO SOVIETS. Soviets went the way of the dinosaur 20 years ago. There are RUSSIANS. There are CHINESE. But there are no SOVIETS.
Just want to make sure you know what war we're fighting when the bombs start to drop. It's so embarassing to bomb the wrong people, even if it does happen all the time.
When the bombs start to drop I really do not care if they are Chinese, Russian, or from South Africa at that point.
I will be like a bug that flew into a Zapper...
Lah...de...lah...de...lah.
Zippppppppppp
I will not have the time to think about it. I will not know what hit me. (It is actually better that way.)
Good thinking that committee. They also should have specifically targeted GSax for the fraud they pulled on the Greek people. If I were in the Greek government I'd be suing GSax in the Euro Court of Justice along with the politicians that colluded or were misled by GSax.
Time for honest government . . . "do an Iceland" on the bas actors!!
So finally things came as expected. I think its safe to say we all knew they cant ever pay their debt, it was just a question how will they "not" pay it. So today we finally know, they have declared it illegal e basta. LOL ;)
Where are you now Mr. Schultz, Ms. Merkel and dozen of other - especially german politicians that were almost gay-optimistic, attacking everyone who disapproved bailouts? You betrayed people from all europe, not only germans you children of siblings!
But here is the thing, I want to see if they still lend them more. I really believe it will happen. They have no brain, no honor and no moral, they will do it. Greece will get another bailout under another lie called "solution" to which they will never commit anyway and farce will continue. Yes I think its actually possible - even at this point.
ODIOUS DEBT = "Tsipras tries to put the pin back in"
Fox News 2 weeks from now: "ISIS has taken over Athens and we have to nuke it to save the rest of the country"
Ukraine did the exact same just a few days ago, without any media attention really. The Rada confirmed into law that Kiev's government was not obligated to pay private bond holders. It was a technical default by every definition. The IMF reported that "Even if the Ukraine defaults to private debt holders, the IMF will be there with loans for the Junta government."
This is a very different approach than to Greece. And the ZH readers know no doubt why that is. A US client state, formed in a US led Coup, must be supported with money, despite a default to private creditors. The IMF assures Kiev, the money will flow. While the Troika tells Greece, "you will pay!"
We live in a world where the "Double Standard" is the order of the day. And it is inside Washington DC that the parameters of the acceptable "double standard" are. Favor the USA, anything goes, favor anyone the USA is out to get, then a strict standard is maintained. This is the essence of "Double Standard" Greece vs Ukraine's Junta
Not only that. Just a few days ago Tsipras' group proposed to substitute cuts in MILITARY SPENDING for the pension cuts that the Troika had demanded. Same amount of money to be removed from the budget. But THE IMF -- owned & operated by Washington -- vetoed the deal, which had been approved by the EU and ECB. God forbid that Greece, which has no hostile borders and no interest in picking a fight, reduce the size or equippage of its military in order to keep old people's lights on.
Of course, part of the reason for this is that the Anglo powers count on the Greek military to take over and impose yet another fascist dictatorship on Greece if the Evil Leftists get out of hand and . . . ummmm . . . stop paying taxes to the Big Banks. This is the main potential danger of repudiating the loans. It would be far from the first time that Anglo-American bankers destroyed a government in order to secure their profits.
All this is no news.
1) The trick to conquering nations thru debt was exposed by Emmanuel M Josephson in his book written back in 1957 "Rockefeller Public Enemy No. 1" (Chedney Press, NY) He explains the mechanism usde by the powerful to conquer Countries thru debt... among other things exposed which today are "dicovered" dayly by the truth seeking crowd, which is catalogued as "conspiracy theorist." The book is an eye opening thriller applicalble 60 years after its publication. Do not miss.
2) Even berore that around mid 1850´s Rothschild said : Give me the power to issue and control the currency of a country and I care not who makes the laws". Perfectly applicable to the to the Euro scheme where the Rothschild dominated ECB imposes this saying on all the Second and Third Rate European World members. Visiting the Peloponese an old lady with no degrees said regarding the EU: "they conquered us without firing a shot".
3) EU is no democracy as the self nominating European Council (far from being elected, they are Elite appointed) runs the show. It has the dubious credit of having conquered and enlaved the coutry which gave birth to democracy. - Maybe it will free itself of the yoke hopefully.
4) The ECB and mega Banks in Europe issue money out of nothing and lend it on interest.. that is simply fraud as no country can issue in the same way to pay back. (Ever hear of the 11th marble?)
5) The politicians (most of them) who fall for this scam are either fools or traitors. Or the Economic Hit Man visited them..Tsipras is a Hero so far and so is Varufakis and those who had the guts to write this report.
Those arguing that the payment of this debt is a moral obligation of Greece (and any other country for that matter) may be candidate to buy the Brooklyn Bridge which I got a permit to sell.
Excuse my typos... i am too excited with this scam and write in a hurry
Excuse my typos... i am too excited with this scam and write in a hurry
Since the Greeks had already passed into the conditions of DEBT INSANITY, it is not surprising that when their commission looked into that situation, they came to conclusions that they did.
The vast majority of those who post comments on Zero Hedge and vote on those comments already understand that the public "money" supplies have been more and more created out of nothing as debts by privately controlled banks, while those are FRAUDS ENFORCED by governments, due to the long history of the international bankers applying the methods of organized crime to the political processes. HOWEVER, it is all too typical for those relatively few people who comprehend the ENFORCED FRAUDS of the MAD Money As Debt systems, whereby the public "money" supply is almost totally created ex nihilo, to continue to almost totally fail to agree upon any practical solutions to those problems.
The degree to which the established financial systems are based upon ODIOUS DEBTS is the same as the degree to which privately controlled banks were legally allowed to create the public "money" supply out of nothing as debts, while that legalized counterfeiting was allowed and reinforced by governments, that deemed that form of "money" to be legal tender, that must be used to pay taxes with.
Roughly speaking, at least 95%, and probably more, approaching 100%, of the public "money" supply everywhere in the world today is based upon governments ENFORCING FRAUDS by privately controlled banks, due to the prolonged history of those privately controlled banks having been able to successfully apply the methods of organized crime to the political processes, such as by bribery, intimidation, and assassination of those who could not otherwise be bribed or intimidated, so that practically all surviving and successful politicians became puppets, who were voted for by enough of the masses of muppets, who were misinformed about everything by the schools and mass media throughout their life times, because of the ways that monetary system had become like a metastasizing cancer, that has been growing at an exponential rate, with the vicious feedback loops of the POLITICAL FUNDING spreading out, and being leveraged through the funding of all other social institutions, such as the schools and the mass media, until the vicious spirals of the monetary systems became totally pervasive throughout every sociopolitical institution.
The situation in Greece was merely one of the leading edges of the basic overall monetary systems that exist pretty well everywhere else, whereby debt slavery has run away to become debt insanities. HOWEVER, behind the scenes that was always due to the ways that the debt controls were backed by the death controls, and thus, debt insanities threaten to provoke death insanities. Moreover, the underlying problems are WAY WORSE, to the degree that one recognizes that making "money" out of nothing as debts has been "paying" to strip-mine the planet's natural resources, in ways whereby the resulting social polarization could be trumped by the destruction of the natural world.
The report by this Greek commission has superficially identified the actual nature of the problems, which are that the pretty well ALL of the world's public "money" supply has become based on governments ENFORCING FRAUDS by privately controlled banks ... While there is no doubt that those are the SOCIAL FACTS, the majority of people who read Zero Hedge articles like the one above, and bother to comment and/or vote on those comments, tend to continue to grossly underestimate the overall seriousness of the situation that the world is dominated by fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, and therefore, tend to promote grossly overstated views of whatever might be the ways to resolve those problems.
In that context, I again point out the reply that I recently posted under this article: "Horrified" Syriza Hardliners Back "Immediate" Greek Bank Nationalization, Euro Exit
To restate the BASIC, on-going problem:
MONEY IS NECESSARILY
MEASUREMENT BACKED BY MURDER.
REAL human history has been based on the history of warfare, whereby the most socially successful murder systems were done by backing up deceits with destruction, and the same methods of organized crime on larger and larger scales were applied to become the current systems of financial success based on ENFORCING FRAUDS.
By and large, almost nobody who is publicly significant is able and willing to admit and address the basic social facts that civilization is necessarily based upon backing up debt controls with death controls, but rather, all of the publicly significant people are socially successful to the degree that they are the best available professional liars and immaculate hypocrites. Furthermore, that includes BOTH those operating the core groups of organized crime (like the Troika), as well as those in the controlled opposition groups (like the current government of Greece.)
The commission that issued the report above illustrated that by the degree to which is relied upon the bullshit language based on "human dignity." ... E.g.:
The ONLY relevance of relative "democracy" versus relative "oligarchy" is HOW are the debt controls going to be backed by the death controls. The language of "human rights" tends to actually be the biggest bullies' bullshit, which has been adopted by the controlled opposition groups. There is no right without a remedy, the same as there is no freedom without a force. Having the force to impose a remedy gives rise to all the paradoxes of enforcement, such as the question asked in Plato's Republic: "Who will guard the guardians?" ... which question has never been satisfactorily answered by anyone, because, in principle the only back-up system to any human cultural system of artificial selection is natural selection, and therefore, what human systems must actually do is continue to muddle through the madness that the only things that exist, or ever could exist, are the dynamic equilibria of different systems of organized lies operating robberies.
The case in point is that the report by the commission featured in the article above CORRECTLY recognizes the degree to which the current problems that Greece have are due to the history of the methods of organized crime controlling previous Greek governments, (as well has that having been based on the prolonged human history of all of Neolithic Civilizations having been based on backing up lies with violence, that became the systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, or the ENFORCED FRAUDS that drove Greek debt slavery systems to generate numbers which became debt insanities.)
However, after superficially recognizing the CORRECT analysis that Greeks are suffering under "odious debts" that report then attempts to justify and rationalize the appropriate response to that by continuing to rely upon the standard hypocritical bullshit about "human dignity" and "human rights." However, the essential problem has always been the ways that natural selection pressures were internalized as human systems of artificial selection, which manifested as the history of successful warfare based on deceits, morphing into the history of successful finance based on frauds, due to the BASIC SYSTEMS BEING COMBINED MONEY/MURDER SYSTEMS.
An interesting history of Greece was its early military history, which demonstrated that smaller groups of free men fighting against larger groups of slave armies could prevail. It was that military history, that smaller armies made of free men could defeat larger armies made of slaves, which was the well-spring for all of the rest of Western Civilization. HOWEVER, tragically, over time, the majority of Western Civilization gradually deteriorated back into the conditions of debt slavery, while their so-called politicians became puppets, performing on stages set up by the mass media, who were voted for my enough of the muppets, who were misinformed throughout their entire life times, due to a FAKE "education" featuring massive lying by omission about how the monetary system actually operates as ENFORCED FRAUDS.
Given the degree to which the vast majority of people have been brainwashed to believe in bullshit their entire lives, and therefore, tend to want to believe in that bullshit, it is politically impossible at the present time for more radical truths to be faced and acted upon. Therefore, although Greece is a leading edge of the ways that debt slavery have generated numbers which have become debt insanities, there is still virtually no publicly significant recognition of the fundamental FACTS regarding human ecology and political economics, namely that the death controls back up the debt controls.
IF one wants to actually get serious about such discussions, then one can not continue to rely upon grossly oversimplified and superficial analyses, that then become the basis for promoting similarly oversimplified and superficial "solutions" for those problems. The currently existing systems ARE due to the ways that the death controls backed up the debt controls, mostly through the covert applications of the methods of organized crime through the political processes, so that the international bankers, as the biggest gangsters, the banksters, were able to capture control over the powers of governments and effectively privatize the public powers of those governments, to thus end up with a kind of privatized public "money" supply, which was a debt slavery system, that has driven itself, due to its basic structure, to generate numbers which have become debt insanities.
HOWEVER, most of the bogus "solutions" to those problems that are publicly presented tend to not fully face the FACTS that there are necessarily combined money/murder systems, and therefore, any real changes to the monetary systems must be based upon real changes to the murder systems. While many of the previous comments posted above on Zero Hedge have mentioned that aspect, none that I have read so far have presented anything remotely close to better death control systems, as the basis for better monetary systems.
Of course, I sympathize with that, since, from any practical political point of view, our society is already terminally sick and insane, due to the established monetary system becoming like an metastasized cancer, whereby civilization has become almost inconceivably crazy and corrupt, as demonstrated by the degree to which the banksters are able to publicly get away with spouting their bullshit, while the vicious spirals of their puppet politicians are elected by enough of the masses of muppets continues to spin through their vicious spirals, based on spouting the same basic bullshit social stories.
The background problems are that human artificial selection systems were driven to develop by natural selection pressures to become based on the maximum possible deceits and frauds, so that the real problems are resolved by real systems operated by professional liars and immaculate hypocrites, who almost totally get away with deliberately denying and ignoring the relatively objective natural selection pressures. The ability within society to ENFORCE FRAUDS requires that, within that society, there develop widespread attitudes of deliberate ignorance towards the basic laws of nature. Indeed, the ONLY connections between human laws and natural laws have been the ability to back up lies with violence, which, of course, is also deliberately ignored and denied by those doing that, as much as possible. The history of social success based on being able to back up lies with violence is the root of the established political economy, based upon ENFORCED FRAUDS, while those enjoying that kind of social success do so to the degree to which they lie about that, and do not forthrightly discuss the violence that backed up those lies.
The commission above produced another classic example of that kind of triumphant bullshit social story, since did not appear to engage in a deeper analysis, and therefore, did not promote deeper solutions. Of course, that is very problematic, since there ARE deeper problems, which require deeper resolutions ... Many comments above touched upon those issues, but none in sufficiently systematic ways.
The BIG PROBLEM that human beings really face:
HOW can human beings operate their murder systems after the development of weapons of mass destruction ??? That issue is imperative due to the degree to which there are COMBINED money/murder systems, and must necessarily be.
Those problems are intensely paradoxical, and therefore, the genuine solutions are also intensely paradoxical. What actually exists are human civilizations based upon the principles and methods of organized crime, and therefore, the only real resolutions of the political problems must necessarily become better organized crime (IF there are going to be any good resolutions, other than the human species committing collective suicide.)
My point is that what exists now are combined money/murder systems, whereby the debt controls are backed by the death controls. Of course, those developed through history to be most socially successful when done through the maximum possible deceits and frauds, because those were previously the most successful kinds of organized crime, which resulted in the international banksters being able to make and maintain debt slavery systems, which drove countries like Greece into debt insanity situations.
However, while the vast majority of people do not understand that, because they have been conditioned to not want to understand that, those few that do somewhat come to understand the established systems are based upon ENFORCED FRAUDS STILL continue to only understand that in relatively superficial ways, and therefore, promote bogus "solutions" that are relatively superficial. (The vast majority of the content published on Zero Hedge fits within the latter category, while the vast majority of the content on the mass media fits into the former category.)
Theoretically speaking, what "we should" do (although there are no practical political ways to actually do that) is understand the general energy systems operating through non-human systems in ways which then are consistent with how human energy systems also actually operate. HOWEVER, in order to do that, those human systems would have to come to better terms with intense paradoxes (due to the degree that the biggest bullies' bullshit dominates everything, such natural languages and philosophy of science) because the currently established human systems are based upon the principles and methods of organized crime, and must necessarily be so, since there must necessarily be human murder systems, which operate the human death control systems, which were central to everything else, as well as the crucial core that controlled the actually existing debt control systems, which therefore, became debt slavery systems, which have driven themselves towards debt insanities. Since all those established systems, as well as their surrounding controlled opposition groups, have developed bullshit ways to discuss that, we are all collectively drowning under that deluge of bullshit, while the report above was merely another desperate attempt to come up for some air ...
The currently existing conditions of debt insanities are headed towards provoking death insanities. Theoretically speaking, there is no way to stop that from happening, to some degree ... Human beings must continue to live as entropic pumps of energy flows. However, it would be possible to change the ways that we perceive that, and indeed, go through profound paradigm shifts, in order to perceive that in ways which are mostly backwards to the absurd ways that we tend to be taught to perceive that now.
THE DEGREE TO WHICH WE LIVING INSIDE OF A BIZARRO MIRROR WORLD, OR WONDERLAND MATRIX, IS PRODIGIOUSLY OVERWHELMING, DUE TO THE DEGREE THAT THE BACKWARDS AND ABSURD BULLSHIT OF THE BIGGEST BULLIES ALMOST TOTALLY DOMINATES EVERYTHING, DUE TO THE LONG HISTORY OF SUCCESSFULLY BEING ABLE TO BACK UP LIES WITH VIOLENCE, OR ENFORCE FRAUDS.
In the special case of Greece, as one of the symbolic leading edges of the debt slavery systems suddenly generating numbers which have become debt insanities, the DEEPER questions are what is going to actually happen with respect to the death controls that have backed those debt controls in the past. To what degree might the emerging death insanities be catalyzed to become better death control systems in the future?
That question is NOT answered merely by correctly recognizing that the Greeks are mostly suffering under odious debts. In my view, that report presents an accurate historical analysis of how Greece got stuck in the ruts of debt insanity. However, that analysis was presented on too superficial a level, and therefore, does not appear to address the deeper issues regarding what would happen on the level of the death controls that back up the debt controls, IF enough Greeks agree sufficiently to change the ways that they are subjected to those debt controls, which must necessarily give rise to the concatenated consequences of changing the death controls, in one way or another, sooner or later ...
The only viable solution to your assessment, which by the way is very well put forth, would be total war. Complete annihiliation of billions of people where societies start all over. Extermination of the weak, so to speak. And EVEN at this stage you are not safeguarded against stupiditiy in the long run. There is always and always will be a greedy bastard out there who in the end will corrupt others in his/her quest for dominance. As a specie we behave more like animals than an race of intelligent beings.
I am sorry that, at the present time, I have to agree with your assessment of the situation, BurningBetty ... In my view, the default paths that we are on NOW are towards what you described as most probable futures. Too bad, so sad!
Meanwhile, I attempt to cling to some kinds of finite forms of irrational hopes for some series of political miracles (backed up by transcendental hopes which do not depend on only finite facts). However, I recognize that those sorts of political miracles are so improbable as to appear to be irrational to expect will actually happen.
I WISH that enough people would go through enough paradigm shifts in the ways that they perceive politics that "we" could negotiate better dynamic equilibria. While I believe that to be theoretically possible, the degree to which all current negotiations are dominated by professional hypocrites, (because most other people want to continue to believe in the same old-fashioned bullshit, based on false fundamental dichotomies and impossible ideals), means that our general efforts at negotiations tend to be quite pathetic ...
It is unclear to me to what degree the average Greek now adequately understands that the "money" that they are told they are responsible for repaying was originally almost totally made out of nothing, and did not previously exist until their representatives borrowed that, or assumed responsibility for that "money" having been borrowed by others.
I would expect that, ten years ago, not one Greek in a thousand was aware that the public "money" supply was being made out of nothing as debts by private banks. It would be extremely interesting to learn how common that knowledge is now, after the run away debt insanity situations have so suddenly and drastically destroyed the lives of so many Greeks ... My own guess would be that the numbers of Greeks that know that their public "money" supply was being made out of nothing by privately controlled banks is still less than one in ten, and might even still be less than one in a hundred, if one was judging that issue more critically.
IF the runaway debt insanities drive more people to wake up and face the facts regarding the monetary systems having always been due to "their" governments ENFORCING FRAUDS by privately controlled banks, the political consequences of such wide-spread awakening might be enough to enable a series of political miracles ... HOWEVER, so far, that still seems like an irrational hope, because I guess that we are still nowhere close to even one in ten people having even a nodding acquaintance with those central social facts.
But, on the other hand, it was not so long ago that one could confidently assert that probably not one individual in a million was aware of how the monetary systems really worked, while today vastly larger numbers of people are aware of that, as indicated by the degree to which the majority of people who bother to post comments on Zero Hedge already seem to be aware of that.
IF those trends continued, so that we did cross the threshold where one in ten people were aware of the ways that the public "money" supply was based on the MAD Money As Debt system, due to "their" governments ENFORCING FRAUDS by privately controlled banks, the potential political consequences to that could become awesome ???
It would take such an awesome change in general public awareness and understanding before there could be any political miracles that addressed the problems being caused by having fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems! In that context, I regarded the report discussed in the article above as another good step in that direction, albeit still only a baby step, so far ...
I am sorry to report that the prognosis is terminal. I must agree that it is time to get one's affairs in order.
I hope that I am mistaken. But it seems as if Hot War is the path which will be chosen.
Radical Mary Jane
Great article Tyler could not have done much better himself... I hope you do not mind I copied the article and stored it..
It would be great if all the ignorants who thnk that the We the People in Greece are responsible for the payment of the fraud read your article and wise up or shut up for once and for all. They are the endless who feed this perversion.
Yes, Aristotle Lives, fortunately, those who are ridiculously ignorant about the basic nature of the monetary system are a relatively small minority of those who post comments on Zero Hedge, and so, they tend to get seriously down voted when they blame the Greek people for being particularly lazy or greedy, since pretty well all of the world's people are in the thrall of debt slavery. The Greek people are only a relatively advanced leading edge of the problems that everyone else also faces:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-18/graphing-evolution-worlds-debt-addiction
Graphing The Evolution Of The World's Debt Addiction
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/05/daily-chart-4?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/debt
In that chart, Greece appears towards the middle of the pack of other countries, different only the degree to which its debts so suddenly went straight up, and then flopped over on its back, due to joining the European Union and adopting the Euro making that become possible.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-21/greece-numbers
Greece - By The Numbers
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-18/greece-just-tip-iceberg-100-trillion-bond-bubble
Greece is Just the Tip of the Iceberg for the $100 Trillion Bond Bubble
Thanks for the data Radical M.
Unfortunately the ignorants are a minority only in Zero Hedge and a few other blogs but they are the vast majority in the World.
Most of my educated friends in Greece belong to the latter .. They look at me funny when I tell them that the Euros they got were crated out of nothing and hate the idea of leaving EU .. Stockholm Syndrome. Aa Mark Twain said "it is easy to fool people but very hard to make them understand they have been fooled".. Egoi does not allow admittance. Extended human trait.
I agreed with your reply, Aristotle Lives!
The first half hour or so of this video features the bemused reactions of the general public in the UK regarding "money" created out of nothing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo
97% Owned - Monetary Reform documentary
... Most ordinary people tend to presume upon their common sense that there must be some kind of "principle of the conservation of money."
As you quoted Mark Twain, most people do not want to understand the degree to which they have been brainwashed to believe in bullshit which is almost totally backwards to the way the real world works:
Excellent Videos on Money Systems
For several decades, I have sort of specialized in attempting to educate Canadian taxpayers about the monetary and taxation systems, and I continue to do that through Canadian Electoral District Associations ... The results of doing that are that I have only PROVEN that more than 99% of Canadian taxpayers prefer to NOT participate, but rather, greatly prefer to remain ignorant, and do nothing ... Indeed, Canadians are probably amongst the most complacently ignorant people on the planet, because of their relative abundance of natural resources remaining to be strip-mined, which means that they are still only in debt slavery, rather than deep into debt insanities, like the Greeks, and many other people ...
I repeat that "money" made out of nothing has been "paying" to strip-mine the planet's natural resources ... HOWEVER, as long as that continues to be possible, to the degree that the people towards the core and top of the social pyramid systems can continue to enjoy doing that, then there seems to be no practical political ways to prevent that from continuing, despite that the longer term consequences of having done that will be catastrophic for younger, poorer people in the future ...
Greece continues to be a leading edge of the ways that middle and lower class people can quite suddenly discover that their complacency was quite mistaken! Most of the world's population who are currently benefiting from participating inside of the MAD Money As Debt systems, backed by the MAD Mutual Assured Destruction systems, appear to be quite complacent and continue to deliberately ignorant regarding that overall situation!
As you stated, even still amongst those:
The vast majority of people do not want to understand how the monetary and taxation systems really work, and do not want to do anything to change those ... One has to hand it to the debt slavery systems' slave masters for doing an excellent job of fooling most people to the degree that they do NOT want to stop being fooled.
I express that as being the result of systems based on backing up lies with violence, so much, for so long, that not only were the vast majority of people conditioned to be ignorant and afraid, but also conditioned to feel afraid of not staying ignorant. I have always found that the more that I learned about that, the worse it got.
Since there are combined money/murder systems, operated by the most sociopathic psychopaths, we apparently are on the path towards debt insanities provoking death insanities, while almost none of the vast majority of people are willing and able to do anything to prevent nor prepare for that, because of the awesome degree that they have been scientifically brainwashed to believe in bullshit, to the point where they feel that they do NOT WANT to understand that, but rather, prefer to deliberately misunderstand everything, in order to avoid the severe cognitive dissonance that they would otherwise have to suffer through.
Yes, that's a good description of Civilization. Never can understand why ordinary people who should understand what's in their own interests are so supportive of the organized apparatus of coercion, fraud, theft, and hypocrisy. But there you have it.
What we need to get rid of is what is called Civilization. And surprisingly, the criminal masterminds might be doing that themselves by running economically into the ground, having become confused by their own propaganda to where they BELIEVE the bs they created to keep control of the peasants.
In the meantime, the best survival strategy for the slaves has always been, to keep your head down, tug your forelock occasionally, think for yourself, LIE when you can get away with it, STEAL a little of your own back when "they" aren't looking, and encourage your enemies to fight among themselves which often provides the opportunity to steal a little more. Passive-aggressive is the ONLY method of resistance that allows the weak to survive to keep fighting.
I have been attempting to understand that, however, the more I did so, the worse it got, as I replied above to Aristotle Lives.
Anyone want to buy my German Banks stocks? I'll sell them cheap
Prior to this report, nowhere on Earth was it reported except in ONE publication, two months ago, that "Greece owes nothing, should pay nothing, because politicians arranged for banks to be bailed out at the expense of the Greek Public". That publication was EIR.
The stupid mind has a much easier time bending his perception to suit his outlook.
Long litecoin too :-)
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/btce/ltcusd
I got my own "Truth Committee" and it says the following: Don't lend money to deadbeats who have no intention [then, now, or ever] of ever paying it back. Fuck these socialist parasites; Greece, Spain, Portugal, wherever. They produce nothing but progressive bullshit and expect a "free ride" through life because they think they are morally superior because "they care". Let them live in their own shit.
www.traderzoo.mobi
What a bunch of shit. You are a professional gambler - just another parasirte - LOL. What do you produce?
And, what do you know of the people of Southern Europe? You think your value system is superior, your culture higher? They have survived far longer than we have, and if left alone by the central bankers and planners, would do just fine, thank you very much.
The traderzoo site you promote has some nice pictures of water, something that may soon be a mirage in your neck of the woods. Shall we let Vegas live in it's own shit?
you are very ignorant Vegas.
The assholes who lent money to the Dead Beat Corrupt Politicians keypad that money out of nothing... you have not learned that lesson yet.. run the printing press, not even that but use the keyboard, crate the money and get interest for it. Why don´t you try and do that to see if they will not put you in jail.. they do and ignorant as you are you see nothing wrong with that...
Give the rest of us a break and stop writing bullshit.
I hesitate to contradict someone bearing the name of the second greatest philospher in western history, but I must humbly disagree.
The Greek peoples themselves were the ones who loaded up on debt by taking out loans.
No one forced them to do so and they did get all the benefit of borrowing money at very low interest rates.
I do agree the best option they have is to default and take the consequences, but they were undeniably foolish in how they acted and now that the piper has shown up to be paid, they really are acting like students who borrowed $60k to take classes in basket weaving are shocked to find they can't pay the bill.
Expecting the Germans to bail them out and let them continue to live beyond their means is just adding insult to injury.
A bulk of all the original debt was practically compulsory defense deals with, dun dun dun, Germany!
Who runs 'Barter Town' Bitchez?
You do, you just never realised it. The sins of the dog cunts called 'Politicians' can never be placed on the back of the 'Citizens' who had no say in the fuck up we call life. They asked for this, and we will call the cunt in.
To my Grecian Brothers, well played, and the Mix and many like him stand right here by your side.
You want the cunt? Come and 'Collect' it. us folk are here all day.
Child molesting, fucking nation wrecking, expense fiddling, filthy, fucking perverts what you are. Come and get the cunt.
;-)
Shoot'em in the back now
What they want, I don't know
They're all reved up and ready to go
Blitzkrieg Bop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imf25Squ8ro
The plan is coming to fruition......as in this 'post' by Mr. Panos long, long ago..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
Doesn't matter until the Greek Government declares the same thing.
I said months ago I would no longer comment on this "Greek" thing after the previous latest last chance scenario which has been playing out for the last few yrs.
This is the argument to not just get Greece out of their "odious" debt but to get everybody else out of theirs as well.
Athens has all the cards and Europe will 100% cave as they shake their heads and realize what they all have to lose when just one small Country like Greece can say we have had enough.
A GREEK DEFAULT WILL BE A GLORIOUS THING!
It will show the rest of us the way forward......you know....the way it was supposed to be.
The Euro and EU are saved!
History is in the making...
The money lenders and penny-on-the-dollar privateers are all screwed!
This is a financial tsunami, from a 12.0 undersea nuke, with a Greek epicenter, and the victims this time will be the banksters!
Oh, just forgot, did anyone of you fuckers 'Consent' to the actions your collective governments made in your collective names? Did you explicitly sign a 'Wet Ink' signature form, condemning you to indentured servitude on the say so of the child molesting fiends you call 'Rulers'?
Did you?
Did you have a single say in the way your collective cuntries are run? Did they ask you? Were you balloted? Were you asked to perform an internet form for the betterment of your folk?
No, you were not.
Withdraw then, for your own benefit, your 'Consent'. You can be just like me if you like.
Come and get the cunt is what old Mixy says.
Cunts
:-)
In the eighties I put an ad in the newspaper stating I was not responsible for any further debts incurred by governments at any level.
It hit the newsmedia at the time, they made it sound as if I was a nutcase.
But you know what? I am one of the very few who can legitimately defend myself in court for the government's violation of my statememt.
All I wanted was for them to live within their means, they couldn't do it.
Cherry Picker my friend, spot, fucking, on.
Heres your nemesis right there.
No consent mate. Come and get the cunt, is what I have said for a long while.
Nothing but the best to you and yours fella.
96 :-)
That country has no pride. They should hang their heads in collective shame. A very small man takes a debt, spends it, and makes clear having no intention of paying it back.
Based on that comment, I think IdiotDuJour would be more apt
A very small man takes a debt, spends it, his irresponsible bank gets bailed out by European tax payers but the very small man still needs to pay off the debt with interest spread out over a very long time.
There, I corrected it for you.
The Greek made a mess of their economy but why should European tax payers bail out irresponsible lenders who knew of the corruption and inefficiency of the Greek economy?
Oh, nearly forgot NSA and GCHQ.
You stupid fucking child molesting protecting cunts, you do know the wankers you are hiding behind would fuck the very life out of your little darlings while you are at work protecting the filthy bastards that could in all honesty be hanging owt the back of your child?
You do know this dont you, you indoctrinated fucking imbeciles?
Have a bit think you cunts. And think really hard. We aint the problem boys, they, and you are.
Remember that, cos' Nuremberg did.
Cunts
;-)
If you have something worth saying, say it without the gratuitous profanity directed at other users. Otherwise, wash your mouth out with soap and go to bed.
Dear 7 weeks and change:
We motherfucking cuss here.
Shit, cunt, fuck, faggot, bitch, asshole, schmegma, dingleberry, deuche and a whole host of other FUCKIN cuss words will be spewed.
IT'S FUCKING FIGHT FUCKING CLUB FOR FUCK SAKES.
Crystal?
ITM96 is a beloved poster and he speaks the truth.
It's proven from behavioralists and sociologists that people who cuss are much more honest and trustworthy.
Just busting your chops. Cussing is part and parcel to these boards so you better grow a set or gain the ability to let shit slide:
Fariedust is a WOMAN's name.
The word, cunt, is what offended her, IR.
That is how I determined FlakFRAU's gender.
Create debt instruments then hook them onto the face of a whole population. Then the credit that is created by the debts is now available to be spent into private channels. New credit money will channel through a few Greek Oligarchs as crime payola, then immediately vector away leaving the country to fund overseas bond holders.
Debt instruments and their associated credit can be disallowed from returning to each other to then allow cancelation. Rentiers and other fraudsters know well how to maneuver this private credit scheme; this in order to take rents and tolls on the productive. It is the action of a parasite...the few...the new Feudal Oligarchs.
"As for the name, it is called a democracy, for the administration is run with a view to the interests of the many, not of the few” (Pericles’ Funeral Oration, in the speech from Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War).
I note that Greece offered to substitute defence cuts for pension cuts, which was supported by the EC and ECB, but that it was vetoed by the IMF.
A German newspaper reported on Saturday that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) had vetoed a compromise plan put forward by the European Commission that would have allowed Greece to substitute 400 million euros in pension cuts for equivalent military spending cuts.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/16/greek-austerity-military-spendi...
Keep in mind that Greece defence spending is about 2.5% of GDP, compared to Germany's 1.3% and Italy's 1.5%, so this seems quite reasonable. Iceland, after its problems seems to have reduced defence spending to zero.
Reading further I found this:
Defence spending is a highly sensitive subject in any country, and the document notes that the third Greek bailout monitor, the International Monetary Fund, is prohibited in its rules from requiring military cuts as part of a bailout programme.
http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2015/06/16/leaked-paper-should-greece-c...
To be fair, including the word ODIOUS in the statement is quite appropriate.
If this is not the equivalent of losing sovereignty what is? This is nothing but the conquest of a coiuntry when they get to force you to spend on the miltatry junk they sell..
All those who are thinkg that Greece is the ethically responsible party (meaning the People of Greece) should quicky EDUCATE THEMSELVES. They are speaking sitting on the stool of Ignorance.
This is a conquest by the ultra Elite of countries without firing a shot.
I envision bank runs starting today and over the next few months all over Europe. Spain, Portugal, Italy and many others, the banksters bluff has been called!