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Grexident Looming: Eurogroup Meeting Ends Prematurely With No Deal
Update: The latest from Brussels appears to be that the meeting of EU FinMins has now broken up with little progress.
EU leaders will now convene for a two-day summit, which means the back-and-forth won't likely end soon. Additionally, Christine Lagarde has indicated she may not be willing to exercise her discretion and delay delivery of a formal failure to pay notice to the IMF board, setting up the possibility that accelerated payment rights for Greece's other creditors could be triggered on July 1.
- ASKED ABOUT GREECE'S JUNE 30 REPAYMENT, IMF SPOKESMAN SAYS DOES NOT EXTEND DEADLINES AS MATTER OF POLICY
- IMF SPOKESMAN SAYS EXPECT MANAGING DIRECTOR TO INFORM BOARD 'PROMPTLY' IF GREECE MISSES REPAYMENT DEADLINE
- SENIOR U.S. OFFICIAL SAYS ALL NATIONS IN IRAN NUCLEAR TALKS COMMITTED TO JUNE 30 DEADLINE BUT IT COULD BE MISSED BY A BIT
- EUROGROUP'S DIJSSELBLOEM SAYS DOOR IS STILL OPEN FOR GREEKS TO ACCEPT CREDITORS PROPOSALS
- DIJSSELBLOEM SAYS EUROGROUP IS OVER FOR NOW, HE WILL INFORM EU LEADERS OF STATE OF TALKS
I've also confirmed that #eurogroup will reconvene on #Greece on Saturday. #NeverEndingStory
— Peter Spiegel (@SpiegelPeter) June 25, 2015
* * *
For a couple of hours on Tuesday, it appeared as though Greece had managed to sneak a debt deal proposal by the troika that, while hitting some of the mandated fiscal targets, did not include the pension cuts and VAT concessions that had previously constituted creditors’ “red lines.”
Then, on Tuesday evening, the IMF apparently decided to read the terms of the “deal” and Christine Lagarde did not like what she saw.
A few hours later, we were back to square one and Greek PM Alexis Tsipras was calling the IMF’s stance “weird” although in reality, the Fund was simply reiterating what it’s been saying since May, when Lagarde lost patience with the situation following Athens’ move to make a €750 million payment out of its SDR reserves.
Following meetings with EU officials and then with Lagarde and ECB chief Mario Draghi on Wednesday evening, Tsipras is back at it on Thursday, in a frantic attempt to win over EU finance chiefs (who are collectively losing their will to keep Greece in the currency bloc) and the IMF as the EU summit kicks off in Brussels. Here’s Bloomberg summing up:
As the pressure grew, Tsipras met with International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde, European Central Bank President Mario Draghi and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker after concluding hours of discussions Wednesday that yielded no breakthrough. Euro-area finance chiefs are also in Brussels trying to find a way to broker an agreement that will satisfy all sides ahead of a two-day summit of European Union leaders that begins later Thursday.
The contradictory headlines are coming fast and furious Thursday morning as confusion reigns.
- GREEK OFFICIAL SAYS GOVT SUBMITTED PROPOSALS TO INSTITUTIONS
- GREECE DOCUMENTS CAN BE BASIS FOR A DEAL: EU OFFICIAL
- INSTITUTIONS UNANIMOUSLY AGREED ON GREECE PAPERS: EU OFFICIAL
- GREEK GOVT REMAINED FIRM IN ITS POSITIONS, OFFICIAL SAYS
- INSTITUTION DOCUMENTS NOT ACCEPTED BY GREEKS: EU OFFICIAL
- DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GREEK, INSTITUTIONS BAILOUT DOCUMENTS 'NOT THAT BIG"--OFFICIALS
It now appears the Greeks have missed a deadline to present a counter proposal ahead of the finance ministers' meeting, meaning the troika's proposal will be discussed instead, even though the Greeks rejected that proposal yesterday.
- GREECE, CREDITORS FAIL TO REACH AGREEMENT AHEAD OF EUROGROUP
And now that meeting has been delayed, presumably because it's pointless to discuss a proposal that one side has already rejected.
- EUROGROUP MEETING DELAYED BY 30 MINUTES TO 1:30 PM IN BRUSSELS
Here's Austrian Finance Minister Hans Joerg Schelling attempting to explain where things stand:
“I believe that it still is possible to come to an agreement. This is no longer about days; it’s about hours. We have been commissioned by the summit to present a compromise by 4 p.m. Negotiations took the entire night. The Greeks are rejecting every compromise, constantly present new wishes. We are prepared to make an agreement, to help Greece as finance ministers, but the responsibility lies solely with Greece to accept these compromises.”
While Wolfgang Schaueble says if anything, the divide between Athens and Brussels is growing:
- GERMAN FINMIN SAYS: WE HAVE NOT MADE PROGRESS;
- GREEKS HAVE MOVED BACKWARDS RATHER THAN FOREWARDS
- SCHAEUBLE: THE DIFFERENCE HAS BECOME BIGGER
Entering #eurogorup, @J_Dijsselbloem makes clear #Greece hasn't accepted creditor plan: "We don’t have an agreement from the Greeks on that"
— Peter Spiegel (@SpiegelPeter) June 25, 2015
- GUINDOS SAYS GREECE REJECTED INSTITUTIONS' PROPOSAL
I'm hearing #eurogroup is now finished. #Greece
— Peter Spiegel (@SpiegelPeter) June 25, 2015
Ahead of the meeting, finance ministers were given a so-called "feasibility blueprint," which appears to be a largely unchanged version of what was tabled by the troika on Wednesday (document embedded below). Here are some highlights from FT:
The first place to look is page three of the nine-page document, where the section on pension reforms begins. This has become the major sticking point between the two sides and, while it makes some concessions to the Greek government, it is very much in keeping with creditor demands that early retirement schemes be curtailed and the effective retirement age be raised very quickly.
Under the plan sent to finance ministers, Athens would ensure the retirement age is moved to 67 by 2022, significantly faster that Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, had sought. Originally, Athens was pushing for 2036, but Mr Tsipras’ compromise plan submitted on Monday moved that to 2025.
There is an important creditor concession in the pension reforms, too, though. Creditors have been trying to get rid of a “solidarity grant” programme that provides a top-up bonus to poorer pensioners, know by the Greek acronym EKAS, by 2017 at the latest. Athens had offered 2020. The new plan splits the difference and goes with December 2019.
The other major sticking point between the two sides has been an overhaul of Greece’s value-added tax scheme. Here, too, the plan makes some compromises to the Greek plan. Creditors had originally sought a simplified two-tier system with most goods taxed at the top 23 per cent rate. Creditors have now gone along with a Greek idea of a three-tier system, including a “super-reduced” rate of 6 per cent for pharmaceuticals, books and the theatre.
Importantly, the creditors have conceded on keeping electricity in a middle 13 per cent VAT rate, something Athens has long demanded. “Basic food” also goes into the middle rate, but it appears all other kinds of foods – including restaurants and processed foods – goes at the higher 23 per cent rate. Athens has attempted to keep process foods at the reduced middle rate.
Another blow to Athens: the creditors plan would strip out VAT exemptions for Greek islands. This is particularly sensitive for Mr Tsipras’s coalition partner, the Independent Greeks, who have argued it was unfair for some of Greece’s most remote islands to pay the same kind of taxes that mainlanders do.
Meanwhile, the ECB has reportedly not raised the ELA ceiling on Thursday as of yet, but stands ready to lift the cap if the situation deteriorates, which certainly seems to be the case. "ECB stands ready to review Greek ELA ceiling in next 24 hours, if that is needed," a Greek official told Bloomberg. Notably, there are also reports that some ECB governing council members are running low on patience regarding Greek banks' dependence on emergency funding. More specifically, Bundesbank chief Jens Weidmann is out reiterating his concern that the ECB is effectively financing the Greek government. Via Reuters:
The Eurosystem of central banks should not provide bridge financing to Greece, the head of the Bundesbank said on Thursday, warning that Greek lenders' reliance on emergency funding raised questions over their solidity.
In his strongest criticism yet of the provision of Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA) to Greek banks, Jens Weidmann said those banks should not continue to buy the short-term debt of their government.
"The Eurosystem must not provide bridge financing to Greece even in anticipation of later disbursements," said Weidmann, who also sits on the European Central Bank's Governing Council, which approves such funding to Greece.
"When banks without access to the markets buy debt of a sovereign which is likewise locked out of the market, taking recourse to ELA raises serious monetary financing concerns," he said in a speech to be delivered at a conference in Frankfurt.
And now this:
Rumours in last few minutes that Tsipras could resign if he doesn't get the deal he wants - Another spanner appears in the works...
— Craig Erlam (@craig_forex) June 25, 2015
* * *
Proposal reportedly under discussion at Thursday's Eurogroup meeting:
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Yawn...
Yawn?
No Deal.
The ECB warns of a Fat Tailed EMP
(extreme market pressure)
Putin says "Russia isn't threatening anyone."
I'm looking 100 leagues above Earth
and, I seem to remember
Earth's Magnetosphere is getting pounded
by Coronal Mass Ejections.
and, we just had another
Earth Facing Solar Blast this morning.
Or whatever. Nevermind.
God Bless Everyone,
T
I vote for a 100 year Earth Truce, Global Jubilee & 1000 years of Peace.
but no rainbows or unicorns? C'mon!
… speaking of promises:
Where are the Live Updates ?
Just read yesterday's articles and pretend they were just written this morning. You won't be able to tell the difference.
Now "Moving Backwards"
That's brilliant....why didn't we think about that sooner?
"Oh, we're moving alright, backwards!!"
If Tsipras resigns then ND gets back in, and Greece get rake fucked with the wrong end.
Usually the Vichy-type governments have power thrust upon them.
the ND leader is in Brussels, prolly talking up another coup de troika.
Oh man, I got that reference.
How obscure.
welcome to Hotel Eurifornia. You can check in....but you can never leave. and Greece will not be allowed to leave.
NoDebt, sad but very true. It is the same regurgitated jargon every single day. I am bored.
Additionally, you can just read yesterday's comments, and pretend they were written this morning. That works too!
>>> Where are the Live Updates ?
http://rt.com/news/269026-greece-bank-debt-crisis/
It's been a Rainbows & Unicorns Economy since 2008.
How unusual... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXwXY1Tyjfc
Groundhog Day # 1026. It's all Bullshit!!!
All have their scripts.
Leading to the climax before the Eurocrats say everything is fixed again and continue to kick the can for the 1026th time.
This time it's DIFFERENT!
BITCHEZ!
Just pass the Deal. Everyone can always read it later ... like Congress does all the time here.
And if you like your Bullshit, you can keep your Bullshit, Mr Winkle.
Let's sort this out once and for all.....it's time for Thunderdome.
This nailgun crap is taking too much time.
Look, I'm the guy doing the best he can to fix this situation. You must be the other guy.
Resorting to personal attacks on my work is not helpful and won't get things done any faster than they already are. So just, like, back off and give me some room to work here.
He has no technigal knowledge of the difficulties you have to overcome. If I look at your avatar, it seems that you are already using compressed air instead of combustible gas. That's definitely the fastest way to operate a nailgun - and it has to be acknowledged that you have to get along with that annoying flexible tube ... ;)
What's 5 more months 5 more weeks or 5 more days........................when it's been going on for 5+years
And if they come up with a fix now....................they will need to fix it again in ????
reminds me of the FIAT Cars
Fix
It
Again
Tomorrow
Haha, thats funny, all bankers should drive Fiat :)
It's all a game of CHICKEN
Chase
Higher
Indices
Cause
Keeps
Economy
Never ending
fasten your seatbelts now
fastening seat belts is what got the world into this mess
LOW WINDOWSCREEN ( WINSHIELD) SALES
Just a few thoughts from the Bearwagon (thar live bears):
While a next round of meetings is announced to be held soon, the controversy about who will be the winner and who has to play the role of the loser already commences. Mainly conservative german politicians, like Wolfgang Bosbach (CDU) are maneuvering themselves into position. The discussion about greece is, at least in germany, dominated by domestic policies. Politicians from the CDU as well as those from SPD would like to present themselves as particular representatives of german interests (pun intended).
The Greece-bashing also is sort of an answer to the efforts of the greek government, to remind germany of it's liabilities from the NS era. It has become all too clear, that anyone who is not willing to rule off german racketeering during said times, shall be punished for such an insubordination.
This desire for punishment is shown by the explicit reference to an allegedly communistic government in Athens. That's indeed nonsense. The actual government can not honestly be called communistic. At best, one can say that Syriza has sort of a communistic wing. On the other hand, it were mainly communistic underground movements who fought against the nazis. By calling the actual government falsely communistic, the battles of yesterday shall be fought again. This shows us, that at least parts of the discussion in germany are not influenced by the real actual situation, but the german past.
Meanwhile economic shills even regard it as success of the greek government, that the questions of financial aid shall be answered by politics, and not be regarded as nothing more than technical problems. They are already warning, that other countries of the european periphery could act likewise. Which clarifies, how important it is for them to regard economic relationships as sheer technical correlations, which have nothing to do with politics whatsoever.
If it gets widely known that these apparently inherent necessities are indeed results of political decisions, and that the asserted lack of alternatives only consists of the fact that nobody shall ever be allowed to question capitalism itself, because it wouldn't be politically opportune, this could in fact be an important step towards another position.
People in greece as well as people at other places have noticed that the bail outs and the attached sacrifices for great parts of the population are political decisions.
It is possible that Tsipras will give in to neoliberal austerity dictations. In that case, the left wing of Syriza would separate itself. That could lead to elections quite soon. Tsipras could possibly form a coalition with "To Patami" (leftwing liberals) and win such an election (again). The middle and all the more the left wing of Syriza would then be silenced, Greece would get new Euros from the ECB and austerity measures would be perpetuated.
Such a scenario could be regarded as a setback for all political movements in europe, demanding an alternative to indefinite austerity-policies.
Tsipras would have a very hard time to sell such a subjugation as continuation of left policies. The middle and left wing of Syriza are both to strong and would oppose such a decision. It would be important, how left movements would position themselves, following a possible break up of Syriza.
It would be equally important for the critics of austerity-policies in whole europe to learn from the struggle of the greek government, that political relationships have to be altered in order to reach fundamental changes. The resistance from Athens could prove as a good assistance to those forces. If that would happen, we would not have seen the last resistance before the ultimate defeat, but rather an attempt to realize another policy, which could be continued by other states with other means.
Thanks for the interesting perspective Bearwagon
You are the ugly face of xenophobia, racism and white privilege, personified.
All the talking points in one sentence......damn, you're good.
As we all are if we have any wish of surviving. The progressive mantra of sacrifice and surrender for the good of the world is destroying everything civilization has achieved. It is a race to the bottom, all to empower a few enlightened people at the top. It is the ghettoization of every advanced society in the world.
misfits are people without a home looking for a home. and why wouldn't these peoples go to the home with fsa gov.org. open arms for misfits, ha nimby, ha again...dat raysicc yo fooker...
EML
Nothing is more ugly than pushing for the wantin destruction of European society and culture as you do with nearly every post you make. Go back to your Soros funded Researchgruppen troll hole.
Eirik, you are the face of a traitorous, pathetic, limp dicked quisling. We get it, you hate yourself and your race. We also understand you are a coward, and that you listen to Morrissey while rolling around in a pile of your own excrement fapping to pictures of Caitlyn Jenner's face on Moochelle's body. OK? So you don't have to post your anti-white drivel again, and again.
Eirick, who are you? Why are you here?
It is the forcing together of people against their will that causes those things. While the motives for 'globalising' may seem altruistic, in fact you are creating discord and disharmony by pushing everyone in a direction they don't wish to go.
Do you really think all these immigrants leave their home countries and come to Europe, the US, etc, because they decide they like those countries more than their own? Nonsense...they leave because their home countries have become hellholes, largely due to the policies of the globalists! So, they are being FORCED out of their own countries, and the countries they go to are FORCED to accept them. Neither one is happy! And they BOTH end up resenting each other...
People, all people, need a PLACE TO BE. A place where their friends and families are around them, in a country they love. If you take that away, you can't make up for it by 'allowing' them to settle elsewhere, in a country they grow to resent, and whose citizens resent THEM.
Tylers reading your coverage I thought that the greek government had already capitulated
AHHHHHHHHHH ...... FFS I'm so fed up with all this bullshit...Ireland took the opposite direction to Greece yet the problems remain (just under the surface). The euro project is doomed but it will limp on for years crisis after crisis dragging everyone down with it.
BUT ITS NOT JUST THE EURO... ITS ALL FIAT CURRENCY.. ITS REACHED THE END OF THE ROAD...
Reading ZH convinced me to own gold to try remove myself from this madness as best I could but like nearly everybody I had F..K all extra cash to convert into bullion.
6 months ago I had no cash and no gold and a shed load of credit card debt.. Now I have a some extra cash.. a few ounces of gold... and I'm rid of the dreaded credit card debt..all from reading Zero Hedge and its commentators, taking that knowledge and doing something with it!!! thanks guys I owe you.
If you find yourself in the same position as me and you're willing to try your hand at network marketing, you could use the commissions earned to acquire gold bullion from Karatbars. Its not for everybody and I'm not pushing it on anyone it's just another option for you guys. All I can do is testify that its working for me - There is no reason why we can't make it work for all of us..
if you're interested in what is a decent opportunity visit www.teamramgold.com my own site - email me for info it costs nothing to have a chat. I would be delighted if the some of ZH community teamed up with me because we all have an understanding of underlaying problems causing the pain for people and phyical gold is the kryptonite to those issues.
copy paste you ass to the dust bin...
It was pretty creative spam.
Send him over to HuffPo....he'll kill over there.
Let's see, you paid off 6months worth of debt working from your moms basement on laptop making 7k a month? Damn what the fuck did you buy that put you in such a hole?
A watched pot never boils
Actually, that isn't true. A watched pot does indeed come to a boil, just as fast as an unwatched pot. It just SEEMS to take longer.
only logical solution is default on debt that is impossable to repay. does anyone sitting in their HIGH chair know math? greece does not want the silver spoon taken away-duh; and the silver spoon is over, unless the three kings horsemen want to keep their charade alive for 3 moar months whilst the imf payments bring them right back to this juncture. drag queen- whatever it takes with germanies full compliance, of course, ha...
goldman, rothchild dynasty must go on...
It's time for a "Big Fat Greek Divorce"
Pound sand Euroacracy.
You clowns ain't got shit.
That's the only "confusion."
if only we could tell the Eurocracy to pound sand, The Fed has been stealing from the U.S. taxpayer to support europe for years fool.
zerohedge @zerohedge 12m12 minutes ago
DIJSSELBLOEM: THERE ISN'T SUFFICIENT PROGRESS
Anybody else's twitter feed being delayed by at least 10mins?
Oh the theater..
Buckle in Eurocrats, we know you'll print all you'll need like true counterfeiting banksters want.
In the past five years there has been an increased propensity by Greeks not to make mortgage repayments, for employers not to pay wages when due, for factories and shops to close, for governments not to make payments to service and product suppliers, for taxpayers not to pay taxes and for car owners to take their cars off the road. In other words all the components of the Greek economy have already defaulted vis a vis each other thanks to both internal bad management and bureaucracy and also to external snake oil cures.
So how can Greece not default when all of its internal participants have already done so to one extent or another and when the further demands by the TROIKA would amount to nothing more than economic genocide?
Freezing the debt, stopping all interest payments and making no further loans to Greece is the only way to force internal change otherwise they will just have to live within their present woes.
"Freezing the debt, stopping all interest payments and making no further loans to Greece is the only way to force internal change otherwise they will just have to live within their present woes."
This is exactly the Varoufakis mantra (that led to the attempt to marginalise him in the negotiations)
Possibly but my mantra predates the Varoufakis mantra and is on the public record both written and televised.
By the way, I think Varoufakis is the only one with enough balls and integrity to deal with Europe.
Varoufakis doesn't really give a fuck about this. In 5 months he has secured his career, fame and Twitter followers for the next 30 years. Mission accomplished.
He has secured his career years ago as corporate finance pro. I doubt he needs twitter assholes and similar stuff.
But he still is trying to play by the 'rules'. The problem is, when you are challenging the rules, you can't then try to stay within them.
They need someone who isn't awed by the power-structure, and who doesn't give a rat's ass what these jokers think of him/her. Someone who doesn't 'make nice', but instead who states, loudly and plainly, what their position is. And then walks away, and stays away, instead of returning time and again in a feeble attempt to get the unreasonable to see reason.
Dealing with TPTB doesn't require negotiating skills, it requires the skill to know when to stop negotiating, and tell everyone to get real or fuck off and stop wasting everybody's time.
How can millions of Americans not be working and still eat?
Greece is simply a more concentrated and obvious case, but it is the same. Those seeking to coast, to live off of the state must achieve "oppressed" status, which this long process and continual hostility is creating. When Greece finally achieves their "official"oppressed status, as the abused and helpless victims of an unfair world, then they will be awarded "entitlement" status and be guaranteed financial support indefinitely.
A lot of what is going on is conditioning, which as we have seen on every front takes a long time... and then happens suddenly. Once the creditors have given up on getting paid and the derivative holders have been convinced that not only will they not get paid but to press their claims will destroy whatever else they still possess, we will see a silent default and the checks will quietly be slipped under the door. There is little doubt that these entitlement payments going on around the world are in part due to buying recipient allegiance, but more importantly, without them there would be riots in the streets. As long as the world leaders can steal from the remaining producers to keep the non producers pacified (and thereby the leaders keep their positions of power), this will keep on rolling along. Ask Germany.
Yes, people still fail to grasp the fact that in a fiat world it is still very much "full faith and credit".
Once faith is lost by all, "the rule of men" is re-asserted...
get long sharecropping, black markets, and guilotines, beat the rush.
Greece about to sink into the Mediterainian Sea under the shear weight of €500 banknotes. We've almost hit peak print.
Creditors have been trying to get rid of a “solidarity grant” programme that provides a top-up bonus to poorer pensioners, know by the Greek acronym EKAS, by 2017 at the latest.
The banksters insisting on taking money from poorer pensioners..... that says it all!
Mr. Panos said it all..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
Great link. Panos is very entertaining. Should not be on youtube, but in a Hollywood movie.
Groundhog Day, Grexit already....
Either Tsipras is a complete genius or a complete fucking idiot.
I think he is both. A genius for being able to drag Europe by the leash for so long and a f..... idiot for not having pulled the chain already.
any news on when greek opposition meets with the troika in brussels ?
The Greek opposition are the TROIKA who meet every day with each other.
After complex maffmatic study, no need go into detail, only Phd in Greenspam Fed Res understand me to 3 decimal places Greece owe creditors 1 euro to Nov.2015. I pay.
With 30%+ unemployment, and with mostly young people and old people unemployed, it seems pretty damn fucking stupid to be arguing over raising the retirement age by a few years. Most people 60 and over aren't working anyway.
https://youtu.be/IQppLMH9uLY
Olivia Newton-John - Where Are They Now Girls of Grease (1 of 2)
featuring "weird and confused" Alexis Tsipras smirking and playing his harp while Athens burns.
Greece is a good sideshow but SA/Russia relations heating up is is a game changer.
Wooden donkey drama followed by last minute fudge: 65%
Gird your loins, Grexit is happening: 35%
Things are seriously fucked up with the world: 100%
THE SOLUTION IS SO SIMPLE
(1) LET GREEKS RETIRE ERLIER BUT CUT RETIREMENT PAYMENT ACCORDING TO AGE THEY CHOOSE TO RETIRE. FOR INSTANCE LET'S ASSUME TROIKA DEMANDS RETAIRMENT AGE TO BE INCREASE TO 65 BUT GREEKS INSIST TO MAINTAIN RETAIRMENT AT 60 YO. THEN FOR EACH YEAR OF EARLIER RETAIREMENT KNOCK OFF 10% OF PAYMENT.
(2) VAT IS A TRICKY ONE BUT AN OPTION IS TO REDUCE THE LEVEL OF STOCK SOLD IMPORTED BY THESE LESS POPULAR SMALLER ISLANDS BY INTRODUCING A NEW IMPORT LEVY
Levy = TAX
TAXES TAXES TAXES......................is what got countries into this debt mess TAXES to pay DEBT
They are going to TAX the shit out of the WORLD and wonder why no growth??
Most taxes introduced as temporary...........................my ARSE..................they then become MANDATORY and increase!
DOT GOVS WILL TAX US TO DEATH before they see the ERROR OF THIER WAYS
My Rant for the day
I agree 100% .... but the Jew haters around here .... are going to blame the Jews for inventing taxes: TAX = LEVY .... maybe not, most Jew haters are socialists .... and love taxes !
I would like to know if the Chinese or India has EMPLOYER taxes on Labour
Get rid of them and watch some jobs come home!
To be a true socialist you must love to pay taxes...as much taxes as you can bear, as we work for the state, for the collective...our God. To hold back, to save and spend on yourself, is sacrilegious, an insult to your God (the state).
The true believers can only see capitalists as deviants, selfish pigs who only care for themselves. The only solution is to reeducate them, to impose and reinforce the more positive attributes of the socialist dream, and if that fails, more drastic measures.
True believers will never understand any other theme.It is a religion, something that cannot be denied, must be imposed to save the world. Something only they can do...must do, by ANY means.
God only requests not Law 10th Tithe
DOT GOV is nearer 50% when you add up all taxes
No, the solution is even simpler than that.
The creditors are entitled to collect their MONEY, IF it's there. That's it, period. Is it there, or is it not?
Never mind all the tweaking of their domestic policies, that's none of anyone's business but the Greeks. My creditors have the right to try and collect what I owe them. They do NOT have the right to enter my home, and start dictating how I run my household! They can't tell me to kick out my children and rent their rooms to generate cash flow. Or to cut my husband's medication to save money. If they try, they overstep their boundaries, and I can toss them out and tell them to fuck off...see you in bankruptcy court.
They will keep this going until the eleventh hour, and then save Greece again.
Because once just wasn't enough.
Again? When exactly was the first time that Greece was saved?
Both sides actually want the same thing (Grexit), but they want the other side to accept the blame because that outcome is incredibly politically toxic on both sides. The Greek Government wants to be forced out of the Euro, and the EU wants Greece to leave but cannot be seen to force them out. Ultimately, someone will have to take the blame if and when Grexit happens.
Blame it on the Confederate flag.
Those fucking seamstresses and their colors.
Or Bush.
Always good in a pinch.
The TROIKA (including the US & NATO)
want Greeece to submit to "austerity" and financial servitude.
They do NOT want Greece to pivot to Russia and an alternative pipeline.
The TROIKA plan all along has been to delay until Tsipras either folds or can be replaced.
Tsipras, by entertaining negotiations from the start, has foolishly conceded to an impossible position, i.e. that an acceptable 'deal' with the TROIKA is possible. He also continued to make the extortion payments to the IMF, etc.
As time has passed, SYRIZA has lost support and the TROIKA's economic and political hand has strengthened.
Tsipras is not the "radical" leader he pretended to be. He should have,from the beginning, attempted to persuade the Greek public that the only choice was between permanent hardship with the TROIKA, or temporary hardship with GREXIT.
Failing to persuade, he should have resigned and called for new elections.
Nailed it. Tspiras is the bad actor here.
Because too many people still feel that playing by the rules of a rigged game is somehow "honorable". Tsipris had it right in the beginning, but he, like so many others, lacked the conviction to ACT on it. They decided to try and play by the rules instead. And learned that a rigged game HAS no rules, except the ones YOU are expected to follow...that's why it's rigged.
The only way to win is to say fuck this game, and fuck your so-called rules...THIS is what I offer, THIS is what you get, take it or leave it.
Then STICK to it.
"Moving Backwards" .... that's how Greeks fuck ?
It's pretty obvious the Greeks will never accept pension cuts and VAT hikes which are the main ingredients of these terms. So why keep on insisting as it is only making everything worse. If the creditors are not willing to accept the terms that PM Tsipras has offered, re-offered and then re-offered some more then the only other solution is default and creditors lose their investments.
Which makes me believe that this has nothing to do with Greece being able to pay back or not but some other agenda.
Of course there is. This was never about the money. It's about owning a country. And punishing that country when it stops cooperating with the ownership scheme.
Notice how they are fixated on going after pensioners, and increasing the VAT...They KNOW that those pensions are keeping a lot of Greek families alive...they want them starving in the streets. Greece has one of the oldest populations in Europe, of COURSE there are a lot of pensioners! And those pensions have already been cut hard.
And the VAT? Well, for a country so dependent on tourism, what better way to render that industry non-competitive?
Funny, how those 'red lines' the creditors seem determined to cross don't improve the Greek ability to pay their debts, but rather make it impossible to do so.
It is SO OBVIOUS that they have no intention of letting Greece off the hook, or of even loosening the hook, no matter WHAT they do.
The only thing Greece can do now is get real, accept the inevitable, and tell the creditors to fuck off in no uncertain terms. Game over. Let the chips fall where they may.
If Greece doesn't want to play ball with the Troika, then it's time to leave EU. Slow walking the Troika isn't doing any good. I know Greeks want to remain in the EU/EMU, but your fraudulent leaders saddled you up with debt, and the debt man has cometh. He wants his pound of flesh. Sells off your assets or walk away and start again with the Drachma. This is a lose/lose situation.
Creditors, you shouldn't have lent a homeless man a million dollars in the first place!
Greece, I want your income producing assets.
This entire tragicomedy has become the most farcical news cycle since Lehman.
Most of EU citizens outside of Greece can't wait to kick out greeks from EURO zone and EU. They don't deserve to be in EU.
Please, kick them out and let them live with their drahma and those debts.
Then why the EU rulers didn't listen to what "the most of EU citizens want" and keep talking with the Greeks?
They must have very kind philanthropist motives that compels them to ignore their citizen's will.
But if that is the case, are they really democratic goverments?
Read Build newspaper if it has an article on the topic.
There exists no mechanism to kick a member country out of either EU or Eurozone. A member can leave voluntarily, but cannot be expelled.
Well ofcourse there isn't such a mechanism but the EU can easily shutdown greek banking system and force Greece to leave "voluntarily".
All as the US markets appear to be moving forward. You realize it's illegal for the US markets to have 2 down days in a row lol.
23% VAT TAX?
WTF
I WOULDNT BUY SHIT IF I HAD TO PAY 23% TAXES ON IT.
AND THESE IDIOTS WONDER WHY SHITS FALLING APART LOL.
NO ONES GONA PAY 23% of NOTHING, YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE OUT YOUR FUCKING MIND IF YOU THINK IMA PAY 23% TAX ON MY SHAMPOO LOL
Fuck man, I dont even pay shipping , If I go to an online shop , go to checkout and see shipping over 5$ I x out the browser and look for the same product someplace else. . . nevermind taxes. . .
What VALUE does this "VALUE ADDED TAX" ADD to society? What good is it doing that it can justify 23% price increases ?
>>> What VALUE does this "VALUE ADDED TAX" ADD to society? What good is it doing that it can justify 23% price increases ?
A taxable person bears no tax unless he is wholly or partially exempt. The more exempt he is the more tax he bears, until if he is wholly exempt then he bears all the tax that he pays. [from official civil service guidance when VAT was introduced]
VAT in Britain was 8% under Jim Callaghan. It made sense then, but evidently the British people thought that was not enough and voted him out of office.
Here in Ireland we have VAT rates 13.5% and 21% (it was at 23% at one point too).
And our country's national finances are still fooked and getting more indebted by the day.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-25/kohler-theres-good-reason-why-a-gr...
Reminds me of a story from a friend in Barcelona. 700k Euro earmarked for a new skate park, eventhough old one was great. 100k Euro finally leftover after all the cuts had been taken. Result, a shitty new skate park, much worse that the old one.
Fellow zerohedgers!
As most of you know... we're in deep shit...
The question is not if but when a Grexit will come! still... many confuse Eurozone with Euro!
Why is that? because its scarier from just leaving the damn currency to die ;ppp
Because what would be a germany without the Euro? not too damn much ;p not in todays competitive world!
The whole thing is not just economic talk! but most of all geopolitics which goes back to World War II!
In fact... we're already in WW3 just in an invisible way...
So... the end of the war is always after the damage is made... it would be better to be the least damage possible and just let the debt go with a political solution... (Although for that you need trully serious people and not the ones we got ;pp)
All in all... we're fucking doomed! and in a zerohedge kind of way... RUN FOR SHELTER AND GRAB THE GUNZZZ!
According to ZH:
1.) US citizens already are living for 3 years in post apocalyptic world
2.) EU citizens living as poor people
3.) Russia is the greatest country in the world with best free society ever
I advise you not to take this ZH / putin regime propaganda channel too seriously. If you would followf ZH recomendations you would be broke already with RUB in your hands and some vodka on the table.
Baltic bedwetter?
as long as he gets free lunch Tsipras will keep negotiating ;)
The very much weaker Euro has been a massive advantage for German industry for a very long time.
With a deutsche mark their exports nowhere near as competitive and thus gives opportunity to those weaker economies with weaker currencies to get in the game.
Spain, Portugal and Greece etc were all going to have struggling economies with a Euro far to strong for them, and they will always fail. I mean this MUST have been obvious right from day one.
And with Germany and other stronger economies in charge of the Euro game these lesser economies will have no say, now power, and in their own little poverty cycle.
The ONLY solution is for Greece, Spain, Portugal and some others to exit the Euro so that these heavy strong economies actually have to compete with a currency strengh comparable to their ecnomic health.
Greece doesn't want to leave the EMU/EU. They want the upside without the downside. No free lunch sorry. Default. Then let your corrupt leaders fuck you all over again.
Give Greece currency world reserve status like USD, then they will be able to print their troubles away like USA. Good idea?
When people have a choice between pain now, or some pain over the future horizon, they will choose the horizon.
Greeks would not have accepted a Grexit if it were explained to them what it meant financialy and job-wise.
Tsipras has bought them time, give them the opportunity to take money from the banks, extended the employment, pensions etc etc longer through all this delay, before the inevtibale dive, whichever path is taken.
Now with all the games that have been played, the Greek people can see clearly what is on the line if Tsipras complies with demands, and that the advent of a Grexit in comparison not as terrible in comparison.
Given that we understand what these austerity measure will actually do to the economy, and the well being of a large part of the population.
people prefer ignorance. this is the glitch in our consciousness that allows us to be manipulated time and time again. we are not great at logical and critical thinking. we take mental shortcuts constantly.
Tsipras should resign. And let a left winger lead Syriza.
Grexit will crystallise CDS and their other derivatives. It will also crystallise some or all €140 billion from the EFSF which the French taxpayer and the German taxpayer has underwritten.
Grexit is the last thing that the EZ would want to see happen. Greece may well implode on Grexit but the EZ will implode too.
I think I'd rather be negotiating on the Greek side than on the Troika side. At least with the former there is some hope of getting debts cancelled and so forth. As for the troika, they're fucked. The very best they can do is loan Greece more money to pay back their old loans. And so on, and so on.
Or they can erase the whole debt just like they did for Germany back in 1953.
Not an option.
Yeap I know, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
In the end, Syriza is just as morally bankrupt and lying to the people as all it's other former politicians by letting them think that somehow, as if by magic, their inherently corrupt, Socialistic paradise of an overblown Govt. and pension plans can ever be paid for by Greece's very modest income.
That's not to say I have much sympathy for lenders who would hand over a half million to a burger-flipper to buy a house they can't possibly afford and act hurt and abused when their profiteering scheme goes awry.
This dysfunctional marriage needs an immediate no fault divorce.
Tsipras is caught in a double bind - either way he is toast.
[-(
Here is one important thing:
"US Services PMI Misses By Most On Record, Tumbles To Lowest Since January" >> followed by: "Greek Negotiations Now "Moving Backwards" As Confusion Reigns In Brussels". Anybody with half brain should figured out by now: EU crisis are to save US and the dollar!
talk about deal fatigue...
I think that all of them own CDS that pay out with a Greek default.
As Bill Murray said, "As long as stocks are moving forward, nothing else matters."
What went wrong !
If the Slavic man literally fucked any German woman after its second crusade to control Europe, wouldn't it be reasonable to say that
The Germanic race is basically Russian !
So that annoying tit that keeps saying "Throw those Greek whatever out of Europe)
You may by DNA be either of Russian or just perhaps Greek parentage !.
That's what she said.
We have case of premature ex~greekulation.
It looks like 5 months of action, but the Troika-types
have not changed their offer. It's memorandum 3, or the highway.
Except they can't kick Greece out. If Greece defaults, that will be a
liquidity stopper.
That's the only thing the US is interested in.
I'm sure the proper people on both sides have been warned
not to fuck that up. Anything else goes.
Try to get a real deal from a bunch of career politicians
looking out for their resume. It's less can kicking and more
kicking Greece back into the garbage can.