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Democracy Is Dangerous - It's Not For Greek Grandmas
Submitted by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,
After perusing a thousand views and pieces, many on the inevitable topic of ‘Da Referendum’, I have to say, I can’t even tell whether it’s just me, but there is this huge divide between what a simple vote can and should be, and how it is perceived and presented.
And no, it’s not my ouzo-riddled stupor, it’s what common sense I have left that has me wondering what causes the divide. Case in point, Bloomberg has a piece called “Tsipras Asking Grandma to Figure Out If Greek Debt Deal Is Fair”. The implied connotation being that asking grandma about anything other than knitting patterns and souvlaki recipes is asking for trouble. What does she know? Politics should be decided by politicians. Well, and bankers of course. And Bloomberg editors. Did I mention economists?
Tsipras Asking Grandma to Figure Out If Greek Debt Deal Is Fair
Economists with PhDs and hedge-fund traders can barely stay on top of the vagaries of Greece’s spiraling debt crisis. Now, try getting grandma to vote on it. That’s what Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is doing by calling a snap referendum for July 5 on the latest bailout package from creditors.
The 68-word ballot question namechecks four international institutions and asks voters for their opinion on two highly technical documents that weren’t made public before the referendum call and were only translated into Greek on Saturday. Worse, they may no longer be on the table. IMF chief Christine Lagarde told the BBC late on Saturday that “legally speaking, the referendum will relate to proposals and arrangements which are no longer valid.”
Tsipras’s decision means everyone from fishermen to taxi-drivers and factory workers will have to form an opinion on the package, with their country’s economic future hanging in the balance. A rejection of the bailout terms could lead to an exit from the euro area and economic calamity; accepting them would probably keep Greece in the euro, but with more austerity.
“Usually in democracies, it’s the technocrats and the politicians who take care of the details, while voters are asked about broader issues and principles,” said Philip Shaw, the chief economist in London at asset manager Investec. “This is a transfer of responsibility from parliament to the voters.”
Now, we all know that when and where democracy was born, and I’m quite literally at a stone’s throw from the very spot it was, as I write this, grandma had precious little say. But grandpa did, and repeatedly, the idea was that people would vote on all big decisions to be made, instead of having them decided by some power-happy individual.
We all, or most of us, think to this day that that was a good, and indeed world-changing, initiative. We talk about democracy all the time like it’s a good thing. So where does Bloomberg come from belittling the concept to the point where they put the word ‘Grandma’ in their headline, in an obvious attempt at making the entire thing look ridiculous?
They could instead have said ‘grandpa’ (big difference already) or ‘cab driver’ or ‘unemployed person’ or, get ready for this, ‘the people’. “Tsipras Asking The People to Figure Out If Greek Debt Deal Is Fair”. Sounds completely different, doesn’t it? Really, we cannot talk about democracy anymore without trying to ridicule it, Bloomberg?
Greece’s own Mr Piggy, Evangelos Venizelos, who bears a lot of blame for what Greece goes through today from his stint as finance minister, and is still PASOK’s go-to guy, though they were almost voted out of existence in January, tried a nice take. He claimed that the referendum was unconstitutional, something to do with fiscal matters not being allowed to be out before the people.
As if Syriza were too stupid to have read the law before letting Tsipras call the July 5 vote.
I’m thinking there’s not a shade of doubt that we will see the craziest claims and reports and theories. From Greek opposition parties, from ‘respectable media’, from US and European spin doctors offering ‘help’ to the likes of Venizelos and Samaras et al.
But that Bloomberg thing sure sets the tone. We have lost even the most basic principle and notion of what democracy means: a vote by the people on matters that concern the people. As Yanis Varoufakis tweeted yesterday:
Democracy deserved a boost in euro-related matters. We just delivered it. Let the people decide. (Funny how radical this concept sounds!)
What else can we say? Let’s keep it at this: we’ve come a long way. We can’t even talk about democracy anymore without ridiculing it.
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It is dangerous here in the land of the free too. That is why we have a Deep State running everything
There is the visible government situated around the Mall in Washington, and then there is another, more shadowy, more indefinable government that is not explained in Civics 101 or observable to tourists at the White House or the Capitol. The former is traditional Washington partisan politics: the tip of the iceberg that a public watching C-SPAN sees daily and which is theoretically controllable via elections. The subsurface part of the iceberg I shall call the Deep State, which operates according to its own compass heading regardless of who is formally in power
http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/
The most extraordinary passage in the memo requires that the Israeli spooks “destroy upon recognition” any communication provided by the NSA “that is either to or from an official of the US government.” It goes on to spell out that this includes “officials of the Executive Branch (including the White House, Cabinet Departments, and independent agencies); the US House of Representatives and Senate (members and staff); and the US Federal Court System (including, but not limited to, the Supreme Court).”
The stunning implication of this passage is that NSA spying targets not only ordinary American citizens, but also Supreme Court justices, members of Congress and the White House itself. One could hardly ask for a more naked exposure of a police state.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/09/13/surv-s13.html
Human was created as a slave race that is not capable of self rule.
The gods will soon pass judgement on their creation.
To be consistent -- Bloomberg needs to assert that uneducated people shouldn't be allowed to vote either.
I am all for it. I'd just like to see Bloomberg's editorial staff pull their mouths of Obama's knob for just 30 seconds and think about what they are writing as opposed to just doing anything to continue the status quo.
uneducated people shouldn't be allowed to vote
Holy Shit! I guess all those illegal alien democrats are going to have to be deported.
...Will never get to a citizen's referendum vote.
W W 3 will begin due to some huge red flag event before the voting takes place.
Economists with PhDs and hedge-fund traders can barely stay on top of the vagaries of Greece’s spiraling debt crisis.
No, they cannot "stay on top of" it. In fact, they have fucked it up completely, or have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams, depending on if the goal was stability or if it was maximum corruption. The idea that anything is going to be worse than the massive organized impoverishment of an entire population is laughable, because it is so disgusting. The sooner these "economists with PhDs and hedge-fund traders" are held responsible for their role in the global theft of the past 30 years, the sooner the world may begin again to move toward a trajectory of increasing peace rather than one of increasing evil, leading toward war. Grandma has a way better hope of nudging things in the right direction than these assholes will ever ever have.
They don't have to actually go to the polls. The Diebold machines will likely take care of that hassle for them...
You wrote:
" <<<<<E.. A rejection of the bailout terms could lead to an exit from the euro area and economic calamity; >>>> "
How do you come up with this as a given?
BTW: A 16 year old Greek and a taxi driver are more aware about civics and world events than the average American.
According to my hubby, it was in the 1950's when a stone mason told his dad while vacationing in a Greek village that eventually the multinationals will rule the world and a street vendor mentioned gold manipulation in the London fix. (something about small flags on the table being raised as a method of voting. Not sure what that meant) and it was five years ago when a taxi driver in Athens told us that to know who loves you, live with him/her in tight quarters for more than a week.
One more: My hubby had bought some gold scraps and put it in little jewelery pouch. During Sunday dinner at his mom's house, he showed her the pouch and asked her what she thought was inside. She of course said that she did not know. Then he said "what is the most valuable asset in the world?' She turned around, while still stiring the tomato sauce and said: "BRAINS"
Stop judging please. Grandmoms may surprize you also.
Tyler, there's a huge difference between a democracy and a republic. Our founders knew the difference. Do you? Democracy was never uttered with a positive connotation before FDR. It's well worth studying the differences.
Bred and born to dig and stack.
I'm doing my part.
It all makes sense :)
Actually, a specific group of space aliens did this, that we call gods and call their Commander/Captain as 'God'.
It turns out that a dissenting group and their leader (the XO and 1/3 of the crew) found this to be so offensive and immoral, that they actually mutinied. Unsuccessfully. They then got ditched on the planet, whose new hominid creation they tried to enlighten and teach to think for themselves.
Revisionist Clerical History records it as something different. It even purports that a Starchild hybrid (offspring from a jolly good shagging between the alien Commander/Captain and hot teenage girl) was/is The son of The deity.
Try reading the 'apocraphal texts'. These materials were at one time collated and studied in much the same manner as the various documents that were compiled, amended, and included in what is presently known in various forms and translations as 'The Bible'.
Search terms:
Nephilim
Elioud
Children Of Seth
“And my haunting instinct that somehow good was not merely a tool to be used, but a relic to be guarded, like the goods from Crusoe's ship--even that had been the wild whisper of something originally wise, for, according to Christianity, we were indeed the survivors of a wreck, the crew of a golden ship that had gone down before the beginning of the world.”
-G.K. Chesterton: Orthodoxy
We are still in that "Greek wreck" in the form of a junk yard called "Oedipus Rex"
metaphorical truth
versus literal truth
Our chemical blond receptionist complained to the big bosss that she was going to sue the company because a guy from the mail room asked her if her dad was a homosapien and her mom was a thespian.
Wow, I've kept that thought inside since about age 14. In my mind, it explained everything. I'll take it one step further. The original inhabitants? Pure, unadulterated salt of the earth?
> Human was created as a slave
Worst creation ever in that case; we are lousy slaves.
What are you talking about, most people out there are perfect slaves.
The individual is a fair representation of self rule, the family unit is another. Both function quite successfully without a nanny from the state holding their hand in order to make it through each day and you? Did your master dress you, Spoon feed your oatmeal into that gapping hole under your nose or drive you to Starbucks and test the temperature on your double latte before handing it to you?
You are a shill for the state and will not make the next cut when it comes, sorry.
This is what happens when the elites are all trained a certain way to think all problems as having one correct solution, which is to 'grow the pie' so that everyone, well the elite anyway, can have a bigger bite.
Elites have already done 'the math'; why ask the people for any input? There is no human element in the economy after all, just number that either add up or don't, and when they don't, then someone has to die. When the numbers do add up, well that's your opportunity to loot as much as you can so that you're not at the bottom of the pyramid when the top looters have to decide who has to die when the numbers don't add up.
They are coming for your baklava, Yaya.
I think I'll go hit the local Panegyri festival today.
Common Sense - an endangered species.
Common Sense - an endangered species
I tought he was a poster on ZH
<-- Yes, I want to eat more souvlaki
<-- No, I can't stand souvlaki
NYT covering clearly the most vulnerable people in the Greek debt crisis: hedge fund managers nytimes.com/2015/06/29/bus…
I call for treason charges against anyone in government that even suggests bailing them out.
"The implied connotation being that asking grandma about anything other than knitting patterns and souvlaki recipes is asking for trouble. What does she know? Politics should be decided by politicians. Well, and bankers of course."
Grandman can probably do a better job of it than the politicians. It is certainly worth a try after what the politicians have done.
The Greeks have moved on - from oracles to grandmas.
Grandma wants her pension check now! Don't mess with Granny.
Greeks WANT to stay inside the euro-zone !! So, there are no other solutions; they MUST pay back their debt up to the last euro !! No more room for ignorance!!
Mmm, yea, you and your children co signed for that money, you still demand that repayment?
Grandma has likely seen it all before, from invasions to coups, poverty to pseudo-riches. She ought to have a better take than most.
"The implied connotation being that asking grandma about anything other than knitting patterns and souvlaki recipes is asking for trouble. What does she know? Politics should be decided by politicians. Well, and bankers of course.""
that's the way it is done in the ussa.
results are marvelous to behold lmao
in fact, if grandmas and grandpas of the last 60 years were aware of politics and politician decisions, this total mess whould certainly never happened....
sorry but somehow, fuck the olds.
A lot of those old grandmas and grandpas lived through the Nazi occupation, military coups, communist v. anti-communist riots, languishing historical fallout with Turkey, being the pivot point for superpower interference, etc.
They hardly stood a chance most of the time to effectively express anything about their political situation.
One day you're going to be old too. Do you want the blame for the Federal Reserve and corrupt DC politicos put on your shoulders by some young whippersnapper? Yeah, I thought not.
Democracy isn't dangerous to the masses, but Demoncracy is.
The reverse is true for the Elite and TPTB.
"Tsipras’s decision means everyone from fishermen to taxi-drivers and factory workers will have to form an opinion on the package, with their country’s economic future hanging in the balance. A rejection of the bailout terms could lead to an exit from the euro area and economic calamity; accepting them would probably keep Greece in the euro, but with more austerity."
I would change the last word from austerity, to calamity. Greece has had 5 years of calamity already, under austerity.
Question on referendum is: Can Greeks have their baklava and eat it too?
Yes ?
No ?
It begins with "let us take care of your monetary system for you, it's far too subtle and complicated for the average person to understand, and this way you can avoid calamity caused by the unchecked passions of the masses."
It ends with "let us take care of your political system for you, it's far too subtle and complicated for the average person to understand, and this way you can avoid calamity caused by the unchecked passions of the masses."
Yes, EE, that is the heart of the matter, and the reason why "democracy" is already DEAD, due to the public "money" supply having become about 99% privatized. In my view, the primary reason why "democracy" is practically DEAD is that the vast majority of people do not want to understand the fundamental facts regarding political realities, but rather, have been brainwashed to want to believe in false fundamental dichotomies and the related impossible ideals, which actually cause the opposite to happen in the real world, because those ideas were originally promoted by the ruling classes, and are repeated by the controlled opposition groups.
The basic problem is that civilizations necessarily operate according to the principles and methods of organized crime, with the death control systems at the heart of those processes. The only things that exist are the dynamic equilibria between different systems of organized lies operating robberies. Those systems have become extremely unbalanced due to the ways that governments were relatively able to monopolize the power to rob, backed by power to kill, while the actual main uses of those powers were effectively privatized, since governments enforce the frauds by privately controlled banks.
By and large, it is practically impossible for there to be any real democracy, because the people would have to control the public money supply, in order for that democracy to have meaning. However, in order to do that, enough of the people would have to face the necessarily existing facts that money is measurement backed by murder. That is what the current systems are actually doing, when governments enforce frauds by privately controlled banks. Those banks are legally allowed to counterfeit the public money supply, and hence, those banks are allowed to engage in that form of symbolic robbery, which is backed up by the powers of governments to kill those who resist being symbolically robbed in those ways.
Greeks are merely at one of the leading edges of the basic problems of debt slavery systems driving their numbers towards debt insanities, which will probably provoke death insanities. Meanwhile, the only way that something like a democratic republic operating through the rule of law could become more real, rather than a worsening sham, would be IF enough people understood the basic facts: Everyone has some power to rob, and power to kill to back that up. Governments assembled and channeled those powers, while the best organized gangsters, the banksters, were able to persistently apply the methods of organized crime to the political processes in order to capture control over governments, so that those government would use their powers to enforce the banksters' frauds.
Enough people would have to understand the real world enough to enable real democracy to operate through a real rule of law. However, the established systems are all FAKES: fake education, enabling a fake democracy. Tragically, it is practically impossible to overcome the degree to which the vast majority of people have been misinformed about everything during their whole lives, by their schools and the mass media. Hence, it is politically impossible to stop the runaway debt insanities provoking death insanities.
Despite the obvious facts being that the debt controls are backed by the death controls, the vast majority of people do not want to understand that. Better democracy, operating through a better rule of law, would enable better debt controls to be backed by better death controls. However, we are actually looking at a social situation where "democracy" is already DEAD, to the degree that the public "money" supply has already been privatized. Therefore, nothing else can actually happen than that the debt insanities must get worse, faster, and then, provoke death insanities to get worse, faster ...
If and only if enough people understood that money is measurement backed by murder, would it be possible for an actual democracy to exist and to survive, because enough people understood the principles and methods of organized crime enough to be able to develop better dynamic equilibria between the different systems of organized lies operating robberies. However, of course, the world is now almost totally the opposite, since the majority of people continue deliberately misunderstanding their actual society. The world is now almost totally dominated by the best available professional liars and immaculate hypocrites, throughout both the core of the organized crime, as well as throughout all of the various controlled opposition groups.
The fundamental facts about DEBT SLAVERY destroy democracy and the rule of law. Those facts automatically become vicious spirals that get worse, faster. After DEBT SLAVERY is established, through the best organized gangsters, the banksters, being able to apply the methods of organized crime through the political processes, in order to effectively privatize the public "money" supply, then that DEBT SLAVERY must necessarily become DEBT INSANITIES, which then must be backed up with DEATH INSANITIES.
Any real, radical, revolution would require the people to take back control of the public money supply. However, that is not possible unless enough of the people understood that money is necessarily measurement backed by murder. Democracy can not be anything else than another form of organized crime, which may enable greater use of information, and thus enable a higher consciousness. As long as too few people understand the principles and methods of organized crime, then those who are the relatively tiny minority of the best organized gangsters, the banksters, will continue to be able to control the vast majority of the people. At the present time, those banksters are able to control their opposition, to the degree that there appears to be no genuine opposition. Instead, the controlled opposition continues to promote false fundamental dichotomies, and the related impossible ideals, which continue to actually cause the opposite to happen.
After the banksters succeed in making and maintaining their core systems of DEBT SLAVERY, based upon governments enforcing the frauds of those banksters, then everything else will automatically suffer more and more from the contractions that enforcing frauds never stops those frauds from still being false. Therefore, to the degree that governments enforce the banksters' frauds, the entire civilization controlled in that way becomes more psychotic and criminally insane. That is how and why the established DEBT SLAVERY systems are driving the destruction of democracy and the rule of law through debt insanities towards death insanities.
The only, but quite dim, and mostly irrational, hope is that enough of those sorts of debt insanities provoking death insanities might be able to provoke enough people to think about the basic facts regarding how money is measurement backed by murder. There is no way for "We the People" anywhere in the world to regain control over the public money supply than if enough of them were able to sufficiently understand how and why money is measurement backed by murder. However, at the present time, all of the ways that money is backed by murder are operated through the maximum possible frauds and deceits, by the best available professional hypocrites. Therefore, the vast majority of people do not understand that, because they have been successfully conditioned to not want to understand, but rather, have been brainwashed to beleive in bullshit, to the degree that they want to continue to believe in bullshit.
The degree to which the public "money" supply has been almost totally privatized is also the degree to which citizens have become incompetent political idiots, who behave like Zombie Sheeple. It is not possible to have a democratic republic operating through the rule of law when the vast majority of the so-called "citizens" have actually become incompetent political idiots, or Zombie Sheeple, that are being fleeced to exhaustion, while being set up to be slaughtered. At the present time, there are no grounds to have any reasonable hopes that enough of the citizens will sufficiently stop acting like incompetent political idiots, especially due to the degree that the established core organized crime gangs, like the banksters, continue to be able to dominate the funding of the political processes, as well as control their apparent opposition groups.
Greece is merely a symbolic leading edge of the overall globalized processes of DEBT SLAVERY becoming orders of magnitude worse, faster. The Greek Zombie Sheeple are being fleeced to exhaustion, while they are being set up to be slaughtered, in similar ways to those that most of the rest of the world's population are being set up. The only remotely possible theory, that one might be able to maintain some irrational hopes could happen, are that enough of the debt insanities driving death insanities, would cause enough people to face the facts about their DEBT SLAVERY. However, they probably will not be able to do that, because they will probably continue to be misled backwards by the controlled opposition groups, who refuse to face the facts that money is measurement backed by murder, but rather, will continue to promote their impossible ideals about what "money" should be, that deliberately ignore what "money" actually is, as much as possible, for as long as possible.
The essential INTENSE PARADOXES are that governments are necessarily the biggest forms of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals. It is ONLY upon the basis of enough people understanding that enough that any more realized democracy could survive. However, at the present time, there are NO socially significant genuine opposition groups which are promoting realistic solutions to the real problems that the best organized gangsters, the banksters, are actually dominating the world's governments, and thereby, have already almost totally destroyed any democratic rule of law.
Yes, you understand. But you will confuse the sheeple with posts this long. You basically repeated yourself three times. That's a good psychological technique, but if you're going to use it, you have to keep the message itself short and simple rather than containing many main points. KISS:
1) Government is merely organized crime which has monopolized the use of violence to impose its will.
2) Banksters, the most efficient criminals, control the government.
3) 99% of everything you believe you know is a Lie forcefed to the public by one or more criminals who profit from keeping the populace ignorant.
See how easy it is?
Good summary!
Round up the Pro EU Camp Mouthpieces ( VeniZealot etc ) and impound them for One Week.
I wouldn't impound him. Instead I would pound him. That fat bastard with the even fatter mouth is part of the reason why Greece will witness untold woes in the days ahead.
The UK didn't have a referendum on joining the euro. Why? It would have to be put to the people in a referendum and they knew it would fail. Yet The FT, CBI, politicians and the rest of the 'we're so fucking clever' elites wanted the euro.
Dodged a bullet on that one thanks to the people (note not Gordon Brown).
I'd trust the people more than any elite set of bastards.
And that includes those careerists, self-serving traitors who call themselves politicians, and who claim to be a faithful part of a Representative form of government of an allegedly Free People.
Of course Greek grandmas should be making decisions. After all it wasn't the grandmas who created the mess or who ripped off the system.
Even hsitorically speaking, democracy in Ancient Athens expanded its electorate to include various lower classes when Athens was being threatened by a Persian invasion. The upper classes figured out that they needed to bestow the vote on the lower class in order to ensure that they had something to fight for when the Persian arrived at their front door.
In any case one doesn't have to be financially literate to vote one way or the other. What they are voting for is not the detail but the principal of the matter. That is, "are we going to starve as slaves or are we going to go down fighting."
Voting is mandatory in Greece and many other countries. Therefore, YES grandma has to vote. She can ask the unemployed PHD grandson which way.
Elites, nationalism, patriotism, central banking and fiat currency are as dangerous as Ebola; they kill and maim just as viciously BUT in GREATER numbers...
It's far worse than what you say because fiat and central banking actually damages the DNA of the free market thus causing untold financial damage even to the unborn.
The two documents on which the referendum is to be held have neither been released to the public nor translated into Greek. That's not democracy: that's "pass it to find out what's in it" or, in this case, "reject it because OXI to the dirty Huns." It's a specious pretense of democracy. If Tsipras really wanted this to be democratic, the documents asked about in the referendum would be available to the public in the native language with sufficient lead time for public debate and consideration, so that all citizens could make informed choices.
The broad detail is known. The fine detail is for scholars like you.
In any case, the whole show is currently being based on tactics rather than the substance of the matter. And the substance of the matter is that the level of Greek debt is not repayable or serviceable. In fact all the debts of this world would not be repayable or serviceable if it were not for the low interest rates imposed by the big boys.
And that's why they keep the fiat farce going.
The European Commission just released the documents at 7:00 PM Greek time (Eastern European time zone). They're not finalized, though, because the Greek government pulled out of the discussions.
Note that it's the EC, not the Greek government, that's making the documents available. The guys who called the vote didn't. Also, nothing's been translated into Greek yet.
I love how I got downvoted for speaking the truth. If someone called out the US government for asking for a referendum on documents that hadn't been released and weren't in English, there would be outrage against the patent falsity of the intent behind holding the vote. When the Greek government does it, suddenly it's a landmark victory in the struggle against the System, or something. It's a sham. Real democracy, like a real market, depends on actors having access to the information they need to make prudent decisions. Without that information, it's just a carnival.
"Real democracy, like a real market, depends on actors having access to the information they need to make prudent decisions. Without that information, it's just a carnival."
Exactly right, and well said.
economists with PhD's and hedge fund managers can pay for it then...
as long as they find it perfectly acceptable to send grandma a bill for their mess, then you're damn right she's got a say.
How should Grandma Yellen vote if she was Greek?
Democracy connotes open debate and the weighing of facts as to who incurred the debt and who owns the debt. Were corruption, bribery, and coercion of government officials involved in incurring the debt? What liability do the People have for criminal debt? Is the loaner of money as responsible as the borrower of the money to fulfill reasonable completion of the contract? If the loaner of the money knew that the Greek government could never pay back the money; why did they loan them the money? Was criminal bankster entrapment involved to blindside the borrower by deceitful contracts? How much money was lost by bankster fraud?
If bankster criminal fraud, debt and chaos is behind the Greek financial crisis, arrest them and bring them to trial as criminals to society and if found guilty; hang the criminals and repudiate the debt.
That is what democracy is about: government of, for and by the People.
+1 And that goes for here in the US too.
Democracy and freedom are dangerous.
They lead to the gallows, guillotine and fizilamento squad.
The banksters.
Let us wait until October / 2015 ...
hehe.
Shouldn't there be a qualifier to being a " citizen" and allowed a vote? At its most basic, just fogging a mirror should not be the minimum, it would seem.
The Demos is fickle. The Greeks know that better than any people. They invented Democracy. Read Plato or Thucydides and you will see just how dangerous a Democracy can be. The Founding Fathers in the USA did read the ancient Greeks, thus we have a Republic and a true Democracy.
Ask Alcibides or Themistocles how that Ancient Greek Democracy worked out.
Most dangerous form of Gov't is a true Democracy.
Or ask Demosthenes, who preached, punditized, and harangued the people of Athens to fight against Phillip of Makedon -- and promptly ran away when he had to fight, too.
They should be more like the united fascist states of merika,,, greatest demockracy the whole wide world has ever known.
Just say it's big secret and pass whatever you like. TPP, Patriot Act and many more we aren't aware of because,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well, they're secret!
We Americans no longer live in a democracy: government of, for and by the People.
We Americans live under a totalitarian fascist government: government of, for and by the multinational corporate monopoly.
Replace governments with open source software. We have the technology.
Will any of this help me bring a hot young Greek lady here to the US who would be greatful (if you know what I mean) that I rescued her from the turmoil? I promise to degrade her less than the ECB.
One should pay no attention to the idea that Greek voters are incapable of forming a reasoned opinion on the referendum issues. This is simply the anti-democratic elitism that dismisses the general population as an incompetent "rabble" (James Madison). The Greeks know generally what is going on, and they still have eight days to go over the two documents. It's actually not rocket science, since politicians claim to be able to understand them. No doubt Tsipras and Varoufakis will be in the media to help to explain the documents that the voters are supposed to form an opinion about. OK, they are politicians; but they have both been extremely forthcoming and talk about the issues to a standard hardly matched by other politicians who appear in the media (who mostly offer threats and lies, and don't have anything to say on substantive issues). I am sure that most Greek voters will have a better idea of what they are voting on than European parliamentarians or U.S. congresspeople have when they cast their votes as legislators. Do you suppose that the American politicians have read, or will read - or even should they read, will comprehend - such things as the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement or the Patriot Act? Give me a break! They are just told how to vote and receive their payments in the mail (or to accountd in the Cayman Islands). The Greek Grandma is cannier than any of them. Or, to quote Chomsky: "What happens to people of independent mind? They become Taxi drivers." The Troika has declared that the issue is moot, since their offer of a "program" has been withdrawn, which they try to blame on Tsipras (but did he withdraw it?). Nevertheless, it seems to me that the Greeks should go ahead and vote anyway. That will show up the Troika's "program" for the sham that it is - no matter which way the Greeks vote - because, propaganda aside, the Troika has not been "negotiating" in good faith. Anyone who can't see that should go back and finish fourth grade.
It's not very complicated. " other peoples' money" has run out. That's all. It will happen here, sooner or later.
Also, Americans tend to assume that people in other countries are a stupid as they are, which is not generally the case when dealing with Europeans.
Also, Americans tend to assume that people in other countries are a stupid as they are, which is not generally the case when dealing with Europeans.
See also: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/28/as-it-happened-yanis-varoufakis-int...
Democracy, the God that failed. Round up the common fool and collect his majority opinion, as if a majority of fools is any better than one. The elites have robbed the people and now pass off the hard decision to decide which version of suffering they prefer. Mission accomplished. Anything to avoid the gallows.
What Democracy? That's the illusion. You don't have a Democracy. It's actualy a Republic. And the Republic is Corrupted.
The USA was a Constitutional Republic which is a democratic FORM of government. Notice the small “d” it is used as a descriptive adjective meaning “government of, for and by the People.
We live under a fascist FORM of government meaning “government of, for and by the multinational corporate monopoly”.
Do you notice the difference Teabagger? Or, are you going to stick out your lower lip and say “Democracy is not mentioned in the Constitution”. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Yes, our once democracy has been corrupted.
Democracy fails for the same reason that people think it will work.
...people are fucking dumb.
More specifically, people are ignorant of the social sciences (especially economics). The masses know what end result they want, but they have absolutely no idea what policies will yield what results. In other words, the people know what ends they desire, but not what means will achieve those ends. Thus democracy presents us with a never-ending parade of absurdities, where the people vote against their own stated interests (to achieve prosperity they vote for socialism, to achieve peace they vote for war, to achieve freedom they vote for the police state). And no amount of education will ever solve this problem, since it's a matter of innate intelligence (or rather the lack thereof).
Moreover, the small fraction of the population which does understand the social sciences will happily exploit the stupidity of the masses, to pass measures which benefit themselves at the expense of society at large. And no amount of campaign finance reform will ever solve this problem; the ignorant will always be led.
Democracy is 100% guaranteed to result in a giant, corrupt, incompetent government.
It's been an unmitigated catastrophe for civilization since 1789.
Time to give it the Old Yeller treatment and return to political sanity.
I'm amazed that any modern individual (which I am not -- I can remember back to 1500 BCE) is capable of recognizing this fact given all the bs propaganda they are subjected to by the name of Education.
Democracy, in fact, is a wonderful tool by which cunning and greedy men can rule without being seen to do so, and thus retain the safety of the shadows. In a democracy, unlike a monarchy, the real rulers do not need to take responsibility for their actions; also a democracy is usually run from those shadows by a commitee of constantly infighting oligarchs, with the consequent ineptitude and inefficiencies of a government which cannot extract its collective head from its derriere.
Direct democracy is suitable for running a clan, tribe, or small town of no more than 500 individuals; i.e., it worked very well in the Stone Age. Should we succeed in reducing our numbers to no more than 10 million humans on the planet, it may be suitable for widespread use again. Otherwise, those who insist on it will soon be outcompeted by societies with more efficient structures.
Well said
"Democracy fails for the same reason that people think it will work.
...people are fucking dumb. "
Not so much dumb....immoral and irresponsible.
Think about it.
People want something for nothing so they convince themselves that its the government stealing form the grand children and NOT them. But they are the government. Such behavior is immoral but our society has moved from:
"Its wrong so its illegal" to:
"If its not illegal, its not wrong".
We are going to have a crash that is going to WIPE OUT 99.9% of everyone in the west. And reality will come marching home.
Squid
"Not so much dumb....immoral and irresponsible."
That too.
In a democracy where (per impossibile) the masses understood economics, it doesn't follow that they would vote for policies which benefit society as a whole. They would do that only if they were humanitarians. But if they were selfish (as most people are most of the time), they would behave just like the intellectual elite do at present, trying to "pass measures which benefit themselves at the expense of society at large." In other words, even sans the knowledge problem, democracy fails because it encourages everybody to try to live at the expense of everybody else. In yet other words, democracy creates all kinds of opportunities for cost externalization, which monarchy does not (all the costs of state policy are internalized in the monarch, since he owns the whole ball of wax and will, directly or indirectly, sooner or later, have to bear those costs in the form of reduced revenues: just as would any private property owner who had made poor management decisions).
"Greece’s own Mr Piggy, Evangelos Venizelos ... claimed that the referendum was unconstitutional, something to do with fiscal matters not being allowed to be out before the people."
Mr. Venizelos was instrumental in preventing a referendum previously proposed by George Papandreou, and therefore in the complete discrediting of the PASOK party which he belongs to. Any intelligent politician in Greece will give his pronouncements a wide berth.
Most Canadian grandmas vote (and there's a lot of them). They love Harper, or Trudeau or socialism. But prefer Harper overall. The sustaining ruling democratically representative minority says so.
But ask grandmas if they are terrified of losing state support for their terminal yet terrific lives, and they would vote for whomever or whatever would guarantee their lives.
Put the vote to a non-party referendum, and lets see what you get.
Well done Greece - Inventors of Democracy.
Has the snake begun to eat its tail? Has Democracy begun to rationalize its own death?
"People who are made aware of their mortality, are more willing to believe stories that tell them they can escape death and live forever."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB7xs7UpIfY#t=4m23s
YOU ARE DEMOCRACY
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