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Varoufakis Reveals Europe's Stunning Denial Of Greek People's Right To Vote
Subvmitted by Martin Armstrong via ArmstrongEconomics.com,
Greece’s Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has come out and revealed the quite shocking and anti-Democratic events that took place during the last Eurogroup meeting.
The Eurogroup Meeting of 27th June 2015 will not go down as a proud moment in Europe’s history. Ministers turned down the Greek government’s request that the Greek people should be granted a single week during which to deliver a Yes or No answer to the institutions’ proposals – proposals crucial for Greece’s future in the Eurozone. The very idea that a government would consult its people on a problematic proposal put to it by the institutions was treated with incomprehension and often with disdain bordering on contempt. I was even asked: “How do you expect common people to understand such complex issues?”. Indeed, democracy did not have a good day in yesterday’s Eurogroup meeting! But nor did European institutions. After our request was rejected, the Eurogroup President broke with the convention of unanimity (issuing a statement without my consent) and even took the dubious decision to convene a follow up meeting without the Greek minister, ostensibly to discuss the “next steps”.
Can democracy and a monetary union coexist? Or must one give way? This is the pivotal question that the Eurogroup has decided to answer by placing democracy in the too-hard basket. So far, one hopes.
Below is his full speech to the Eurogroup members
Intervention by Yanis Varoufakis, 27th June 2015 – Eurogroup MeetingColleagues,
In our last meeting (25th June) the institutions tabled their final offer to the Greek authorities, in response to our proposal for a Staff Level Agreement (SLA) as tabled on 22nd June (and signed by Prime Minister Tsipras). After long, careful examination, our government decided that, unfortunately, the institutions’ proposal could not be accepted. In view of how close we have come to the 30th June deadline, the date when the current loan agreement expires, this impasse of grave concern to us all and its causes must be thoroughly examined.
We rejected the institutions’ 25th June proposals because of a variety of powerful reasons. The first reason is the combination of austerity and social injustice they would impose upon a population devastated already by… austerity and social injustice. Even our own SLA proposal (22nd June) is austerian, in a bid to placate the institutions and thus come closer to an agreement. Only our SLA attempted to shift the burden of this renewed austerian onslaught to those more able to afford it – e.g. by concentrating on increasing employer contributions to pension funds rather than on reducing the lowest of pensions. Nonetheless, even our SLA contains many parts that Greek society rejects.
So, having pushed us hard to accept substantial new austerity, in the form of absurdly large primary surpluses (3.5% of GDP over the medium term, albeit somewhat lower than the unfathomable number agreed to by previous Greek governments – i.e. 4.5%), we ended up having to make recessionary trade-offs between, on the one hand, higher taxes/charges in an economy where those who pay their dues pay through the nose and, on the other, reductions in pensions/benefits in a society already devastated by massive cuts in basic income support for the multiplying needy.
Let me say colleagues what we had already conveyed to the institutions on 22nd June, as we were tabling our own proposals: Even this SLA, the one we were proposing, would be extremely onerous to pass through Parliament, given the level of recessionary measures and austerity it entailed. Unfortunately, the institutions’ response was to insist on even more recessionary (aka parametric) measures (e.g. increasing VAT on hotels from 6% to 23%!) and, worse still, on shifting the burden massively from business to the weakest members of society (e.g. to reduce the lowest of pensions, to remove support for farmers, to postpone ad infinitum legislation that offers some protection to badly exploited workers).
The institutions new proposals, as expressed in their 25th June SLA/Prior Actions document, would make a politically problematic package – from the perspective of our Parliament – into a package that would extremely difficult to push through our Parliamentary caucus. But this is not all. It gets worse much worse than that once we take a look at the proposed financing package.
What makes it impossible to pass the institutions’ proposal through Parliament is the lack of an answer to the question: Will these painful measures at least give us a period of tranquillity during which to carry out the agreed reforms and measures? Will a shock of optimism counter the recessionary effect of the extra fiscal consolidation that is being imposed on a country that has been in recession for 21 consecutive quarters? The answer is clear: No, the institutions’ proposal is offering no such prospect.
This is why: The proposed funding for the next 5 months (see below for a breakdown) is problematic in a variety of ways:
First, it makes no provision for the state’s arrears, caused by five months of making payments without disbursements and of falling tax revenues as a result of the constant threat of Grexit that has been wafting in the air, so to speak.
Secondly, the idea of cannibalising the HFSF in order to repay the ECB’s SMP-era bonds constitutes a clear and present danger: These monies were earmarked, correctly, for strengthening Greece’s fragile banks, possibly through an operation that deals with their mountainous NPLs that eat into their capitalisation. The answer I have been given by senior ECB officials, whose name will remain unsaid, is that, if need be, the HFSF will be replenished to cope with the banks’ capitalisation needs. And who will do the replenishing? The ESM, is the answer I was given. But, and this is a gigantic but, this is not part of the proposed deal and, moreover, it could not be part of the deal as the institutions have no mandate to commit the ESM in this manner – as I am sure Wolfgang will remind us all. And, moreover, if such a new arrangement could be made, why then is our sensible, moderate, proposal of a new ESM facility for Greece that helps shift SMP liability from the ECB to the ESM not discussed? The answer “we will not discuss it because we will not discuss it” will be very hard for me to convey to my Parliament, together with another package of austerity.
Thirdly, the proposed disbursements’ schedule is a minefield of reviews – one per month – that will ensure two things. First, that the Greek government will be immersed every day, every week in the review process for five long months. And well before these five months expire, we shall enter into another tedious negotiation over the next program – since there is nothing in the institutions’ proposal capable of inspiring even the faintest of hopes that at the end of this new extension Greece can stand on its own two feet.
Fourthly, given that it is abundantly clear that our debt will remain unsustainable by the end of the year, and that market access will remain as distant then as it is now, the IMF cannot be counted upon to disburse its share, the 3.5 billion that the institutions are counting as part of the funding package on the table.
These are solid reasons why our government does not consider it has a mandate to accept the institutions’ proposal or to use its majority in Parliament in order to push it through and onto the statutes.
At the same time, we do not have a mandate to turn down the institutions’ proposals either, cognizant of the critical moment in history we find ourselves in. Our party received 36% of the vote and the government as a whole commanded a little more than 40%. Fully aware of how weighty our decision is, we feel obliged to put the institutions’ proposal to the people of Greece. We shall endeavour to spell out to them fully what a Yes to the Institutions’ Proposal means, to do the same regarding a No vote, and then let them decide. For our part we shall accept the people’s verdict and will do whatever it takes to implement it – one way or another.
Some worry that a Yes vote would be a vote of no confidence in our government (as we shall be recommending a No vote), in which case we cannot promise to the Eurogroup that we shall be in a position to sign and implement the agreement with the institutions. This is not so. We are committed democrats. If the people gives us a clear instruction to sign up on the institutions’ proposals, we shall do whatever it takes to do so – even if it means a reconfigured government.
Colleagues, the referendum solution is optimal for all, given the constraints we face.
- If our government were to accept the institutions’ offer today, promising to push it through Parliament tomorrow, we would be defeated in Parliament with the result of a new election being called within a very long month – then, the delay, the uncertainty and the prospects of a successful resolution would be much, much diminished
- But even if we managed to pass the institutions’ proposal through Parliament, we would be facing a major problem of ownership and implementation. Put simply, just as in the past the governments that pushed through policies dictated by the institutions could not carry the people with them, we too would fail to do so.
On the question that will be put to the Greek people, much has been said about what it should be. Many of you tell us, advise us, instruct us even, that we should make it a Yes or No question on the euro. Let me be clear on this. First, the question was formulated by the Cabinet and has just been passed through Parliament – and it is “Do you accept the institutions’ proposal as it was presented to us on 25th June in the Eurogroup?” This is the only pertinent question. If we had accepted that proposal two days ago, we would have had a deal. The Greek government is now asking the electorate to answer the question you put it to me Jeroen – especially when you said, and I quote, “you can consider this, if you wish, a take or leave it proposal”. Well, this is how we took it and we are now honouring the institutions and the Greek people by asking the latter to deliver a clear answer on the institutions’ proposal.
To those who say that, effectively, this is a referendum on the euro, my answer is: You may very well say this but I shall not comment. This is your judgement, your opinion, your interpretation. Not ours! There is a logic to your view but only if there is an implicit threat that a No from the Greek people to the institutions’ proposal will be followed up by moves to eject Greece, illegally, out of the euro. Such a threat would not be consistent with basic principles of European democratic governance and European Law.
To those who instruct us to phrase the referendum question as a euro-drachma dilemma, my answer is crystal clear: European Treaties make provisions for an exit from the EU. They do not make any provisions for an exit from the Eurozone. With good reason, of course, as the indivisibility of our Monetary Union is part of its raison d’ etre. To ask us to phrase the referendum question as a choice involving exit from the Eurozone is to ask us to violate EU Treaties and EU Law. I suggest to anyone who wants us, or anyone else, to hold a referendum on EMU membership to recommend a change in the Treaties.
Colleagues,
It is time to take stock. The reason we find ourselves in the present conundrum is one: Our government’s primary proposal to you and the institutions, which I articulated here in the Eurogroup in my first ever intervention, was never taken seriously. It was the suggestion that common ground be created between the prevailing MoU and our new government’s program. For a fleeting moment, the 20th February Eurogroup statement raised the prospect of such common ground – as it made no reference to the MoU and concentrated on a new reform list by our government that would be put to the institutions.
Regrettably, immediately after the 20th of February the institutions, and most of colleagues in this room, sought to bring the MoU back to the centre, and to reduce our role in marginal changes within the MoU. It is as if we were told, to paraphrase Henry Ford, that we could have any reform list, any agreement, as long as it was the MoU. Common ground was thus sacrificed in favour of imposing upon our government a humiliating retreat. This is my view. But it is not important now. Now it is up to the Greek people to decide.
Our task, in today’s Eurogroup, ought to be to pave the ground for a smooth passage to the referendum of 5th July. This means one thing: that our loan agreement be extended by a few weeks so that the referendum takes place in conditions of tranquillity. Immediately after 5th July, if the people have voted Yes, the institutions’ proposal will be signed. Until then, during the next week, as the referendum approaches, any deviation from normality, especially in the banking sector, will be invariably interpreted as an attempt to coerce Greek voters. Greek society has paid a hefty price, through huge fiscal contraction, in order to be part of our monetary union. But a democratic monetary union that threatens a people about to deliver their verdict with capital controls and bank closures is a contradiction in terms. I would like to think that the Eurogroup will respect this principle. As for the ECB, the custodian on our monetary stability and of the Union itself, I have no doubt that, if the Eurogroup takes a responsible decision today to accept the request for an extension of our loan agreement that I am now tabling, it will do what it takes to give the Greek people a few more days to express their opinion.
Colleagues, these are critical moments and the decisions we make are momentous. In years to come we may well be asked “Where were you on the 27th of June? And what did you do to avert what happened? At the very least we should be able to say that: We gave the people who live under the worst depression a chance to consider their options. We tried democracy as a means of breaking a deadlock. And we did what it took to give them a few days to do so.
POSTSCRIPT – The day the Eurogroup President broke with the tradition of unanimity and excluded Greece from a Eurogroup gathering at will
Following my intervention (see above) the Eurogroup President rejected our request for an extension, with the support of the rest of the members, and announced that the Eurogroup would be issuing a statement placing the burden of this impasse on Greece and suggesting that the 18 ministers (that is the 19 Eurozone finance ministers except the Greek minister) reconvene later to discuss ways and means of protecting themselves from the fallout.
At that point I asked for legal advice, from the secretariat, on whether a Eurogroup statement can be issued without the conventional unanimity and whether the President of the Eurogroup can convene a meeting without inviting the finance minister of a Eurozone member-state. I received the following extraordinary answer: “The Eurogroup is an informal group. Thus it is not bound by Treaties or written regulations. While unanimity is conventionally adhered to, the Eurogroup President is not bound to explicit rules.” I let the reader comment on this remarkable statement.
For my part, I concluded as follows:
Colleagues, refusing to extend the loan agreement for a few weeks, and for the purpose of giving the Greek people an opportunity to deliberate in peace and quiet on the institutions’ proposal, especially given the high probability that they will accept these proposals (contrary to our government’s advice), will damage permanently the credibility of the Eurogroup as a democratic decision making body comprising partner states sharing not only a common currency but also common values.
* * *
First, they do hate Yanis’ guts for he does understand far more about the economy than anyone in Brussels. Any further discussions they demand will be without him.
What led to the EU breaking off was exactly what we reported previously – they do not want any member state to EVER allow the people to vote on the Euro.
Brussels has become a DICTATORSHIP and is so arrogant without any just cause that they know better than the people.
We are watching the total collapse of Democracy and the birth of a new era – Economic Totalitarianism from Arrogant people who are totally clueless beyond their own greed for power and money.
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We're all Palestinians now, so to speak.
If TSipras really wanted to guarantee a referendum then he should have called for one before the programs expire so he gives the public a chance to be informed. This is a desperate move from a dangerous man. He must go!!
Power always sincerely, believes itself right. Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak.
Article is bullshit. The Greek people chose decades of socialism and living beyond their means. Reality in the form of their debtors reasserting itself is not "economic totalitarianism", or "anti-democratic". Democracy is rule by the swords of the dumbest 51%. Live by the sword, die by the sword. It's that simple.
How many Americans would vote for Open Borders, Illegal Amnesty, Carbon Taxes or TPP if it was a democratic vote offered to the people? Not many.
This is so exciting! I can't decide who to root for, the people that borrowed money they knew they would never repay, or the people that lent money to people they knew would never repay them.
the new sovereignty is no sovereignty.
The voters... please... when was the last time they actually mattered? Maybe back in the day when they weren't afraid to build a guiloteen.
smithcreek. Let me try to sway you. Remember the people that lent the money that they knew would never be repaid just conjured it out of thin air. If it were real money they were lending (gold) they would have actually had to earn said money before lending it and I can guarantee you there is no fucking way they would ever lend it if they had to do that!
"will damage permanently the credibility of the Eurogroup as a democratic decision making body comprising partner states sharing not only a common currency but also common values" Varoufakis
lol....seriously? Who ever thought the EU was a democratic institution!!!
From my NWO Schedule of Implementation page...
“The script of the play calls for Greece, the ‘birthplace of democracy,’ to flee the ‘anti-democratic’ West and join the ‘BRICS rebellion against the evil Western central bankers.’”
Not only does this ZH article's title hit the “anti-democratic West” talking point, it also touches on what I wrote about in Understanding the NWO Strategy. As I’ve said innumerable times, the “Economic Totalitarianism from Arrogant [European] people” is a clear evil that is being widely advertised to stir an emotional reaction amongst the sheeple. The globalists WANT the sheeple to see this evil coming upon them so the herd will want to flee to safety. And to where shall those scared sheepfolk go? To the BRICS and their NWO of course, just like the Greeks will do next week. We are meant to flee the scary Left Hand of the globalists to find sanctuary in their reassuring Right Hand.
http://redefininggod.com/understanding-the-nwo-strategy/
"I can't decide who to root for, the people that borrowed money they knew they would never repay, or the people that lent money to people they knew would never repay them."
I'm rooting for the human race, and the possibility of it finally being set free after the global debt-money financial clusterfuck and economic rape camp spontaneously implodes and immolates itself in a glorious funeral pyre composed of hundreds of trillions of dollars in cross-linked co-dependent derivatives all becoming worthless in a single day. It will be like watching a building constructed out of flash paper igniting and disintegrating in an instant. It is more than a little ironic that the initial spark to ignite this pyre may be none less than the "birthplace of democracy."
Not many middle class white Americans, but those are now so far in the minority that a democratic referendum on the above issues may well pass.
How many would vote at all?
57% of eligible voters cast a ballot in the 2012 presidential election, and 51% of them voted for Obama.
More than three-fourths of millennials cannot name one of their home state’s senators.
Not saying the solution is technocratic tyranny. But will say the scales tipped when the bankers got control of the dollar and printing press.
--------d
Yes, the differnce between democracy and Republic is night and day. The fact that the majority of westerners don't understand this explains why we are circling the drain.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qszo8u1m9ZQ
a rather curious use of the word, "Rebublic," if you ask me. are you sure you know what that word actually refers to?
Yes, you clearly don't understand the difference so watch the video then this one:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=keH0AeszJyk
Let me rephrase my eternal question to you:
What exactly is the difference between Democracy and a Republic, or, if the USSA reeeeally is a Republic, then why is gay marriage legal on a federal level?
Oh no, you blew your chance by talking smack last time. The Red Beckman videos are all there on youtube. Watch them and become enlightened, or don't and remain ignorant. The choice is yours.
I watched only one and it lowered my IQ by 10 points. No wonder you avoid direct answers...
Then back to zero eh?
Yes, and it's not zero eh but zero hedge.
Buh-bye then, enjoy your third world hellhole!
What, you're leaving us? Don't let the door hit ya where your God split ya.
Speaking of 3rd world hellholes, you wouldn't know one even if you lived right in the middle of it...
dup
You guys are all missing the point. Greeks understand that politicians are NOT smarter than to common man. Let every man decide from himself. That's why Greek politicians favour elections and referendoms.
On the other hand. There was this statement made by the Eurogroup legal counsel:
It would seem to read that the Eurpgroup is not bound by treaties or written regulations. But, how was this group formed? By whose authority? By what authority do they rule if not by the power of usurious debt tenuously backed by "force" of some obscure nature? Is this what world government really amounts to, this "Eurogroup"?
The working practices of EU bodies, primarily The Council and it's derivates (meetings of national ministers of various sectors, such as is the Eurogroup which consists of finance ministers of all Eurozone member states) as a concept is based on customary law.
Reading the bolded statement, my first thought was that the Eurotards have just become "exceptional" and started making their own rules. Although, however infantile and imbecile this outburst of EU fascism against an existing EU member-state was, silencing Greece is the least of Eurotards' problems now; you see, when the Eurogroup decided to kick Varoufakis out and hold a Eurogroup-1 meeting I knew Greece is getting dumped from the EZ, ergo it not longer fulfills the basic requirement for being a Eurogroup member.
There's no love lost between Greece and Brussels and Tsipras is ready to pull the plug on this motherfucker. Geopolitically speaking, we're into uncharted territory.
Hmmmm, who's at fault???
The Bank who loaned money knowing it couldn't be paid back, but loaned anyway due to the immediate kickbacks available?
The politicians who borrowed knowing it couldn't be paid back, but that would be rich and gone by the time the bill came due?
Both in my opinion, wouldn't be something if someday all politicians and all bankers faced punishment?
Most appropriate time for Spain's Podemos and France's Lapen to make strong statements supporting Greek positions.
Something Laconic such as "Next..."
This is the moment for all progressive & constructive parties in Europe, who stand for an alternative to austerity, to show solidarity and unify their voices.
"Flogolopolis heads back to Texas to run Greece from there. Buys Texas Ranch and some German horses which he rides daily...
One question.
Who gets to pay for the 'alternative to austerity' ?
More Greek taxes?
Float some Greek bonds?
Tax other Europeans?
Tax Australians?
Find a Skittle shitting unicorn?
All those 'progressive and constructive' Euros need to stand up and say:
YES. We'll pay! Take our money and give it to Greece. We don't need it and we want to help.
*Crickets*
Excellent observation there.
Power blinds and absolute power blinds absolutely.
The greeks will vote the same way a virgin does.
No! Don't! Stop!
no don't stop
nodon'tstop
nodon'tstop
don'tstopdon'tstopdon'tstop
For everyone downvoting PhilB, you need to educate yourself regarding the timeline of events. Phil's comment is spot on.
The Greek people are getting screwed by their politicians, oligarchs, and the EU banking system. Syriza could have asked for a referendum months ago. Once the EU cuts them off, the people will be screwed as Syriza hasn't been working towards the next steps (i.e. printing drachmas) So things are going to get ugly for the common folk.
That would be a problem for the Greeks and the Greeks only. Anyone else demanding such can only be a tyrant and a dick.tator.
Oh yeah, and Largarde pees standing up!
Bitchez.
"Let's put it this way, it will be easier to open up Angela's legs again than my banks."
Next up: the expertise needed to vote for the appropriate candidate is too complicated to leave up to the people!
Yes, they need an emergency infusion of Euro technocrats -- stat.
If you vote for socialists for several decades, you turn the place to shit. Doesn't matter whether you're Detroit or Athens.
and this is greece's chance to live free, in poverty, until such time as they re-think whether the shared poverty of socialism is to their liking. or live as slaves to the technocrats.
coming soon to a govt negotiation near you.
"Next up:"????
Fuck, that happened years back...2016 election...you've been GIVEN the choice of BushWhackerV2, CombOver, or Hildabeast.
As usual, Martin Armstrong is full of CRAP! The real problem is very simple: Greeks (who should never have been allowed to join the Euro) want to continue MOOCHING off the rest of Europe in order to protect their ridiculous pension plans and armies of Government Employees. The rest of Europe understandably doesn't want to continue subsidizing the boondoggle that is Greece. So it is very simple: The Greeks either balance their books or they leave the Euro!!! NO MORE SUBSIDIES!
18 percent seems like a pretty good "subsidy" to me.
I tend to agree but at the same time the banks were shoving money at them and in effect HAD to because as we all know, modern banking depends on an ever increasing debt or it collapses so they both knew but this time the clock ran out on them as it will on everyone this time.
AAA21 - Ok, they leave the Euro... What about all the monies already lent to them? They are allowed to not repay any of it? (Not that I think that they will repay it) The rest of Europe just absorbs the loss. And then comes along Podemos in Spain, then Portugal, France, & Italy. Does the rest of Europe just absorb the loss from these countries also?
It's a tough spot to be in. Who will suffer more - the Greeks or the countries who lent money to those who could not repay it?
Seriously dude. Did you really just say that he is full of crap?
Everything is unfolding just as the computer has forecasted. You must not have seen that slide from a 1985 Princeton Economics conference that said 2015: Sovereign Debt Big Bang. I suppose you have a website that has been promoting gold since 2011. Give it up man. The guy knows EXACTLY what he is talking about. We are finally heading into that Cat 5 hurricane that some people want around here.
I triple-dog-dare you to email what you said here to him. He will blow you up for the whole world to see on his amazing blog.
So let me get this straight, the FinMin agrees with Victoria Nuland now and says, "Fuck the EU!"?
First you have to pass the legislation before you can see what it means. Everyone knows this.
"We would like to take a bit more time to reconsider, but they told me that Douchebank will implode if we wait more than a week."
pods
if they even allow activation of CDS and interest rate swaps by declaring a credit event. this should be the main event - this greek crap is the public face of a deeper problem, and there are no money center banks that will remain unaffected.
Officers! Arrest that man! He's revealing confidential double secret information that is the property of the EBC.
He's a terrorist!
Unelected financial bureaucrats in Brussels should be replaced by strange women in ponds distributing swords!
Sadly enough we will now see the violence inherent in the system.
Just say the word and those Abrams Tanks will be rolling into Athens...
That would be a watery tart, or in the case of Legarde, a leaky tramp.
If that 2 mile asteroid ever hits, let it be Brussels.
D. C also
could work with one well aimed, crustal piercing projectile. 400 yards around would probably do it - i'd be personally happier if the collatoral damaged was limited outside the beltway.
Tyler, please stop sugar-coating it
Once Greece leaves it'll become the PIS.
People of Portugal, Italy, Spain, walk to your bank and take out your money. Just act natural.
SPIF - Spain, Portugal, Italy AND France.
Formerly the SPIF, now they have become the PIFS.
That sounds about right. "Pffft"
Anyway we can get it to be SPLIFF?
Today would be a really good time to get your money out of Spain, Italy, or Portugese banks. While everyone is looking @ Greece.
Just as importantly, buy something with it that's not so papery. If everybody quits what good will having euros do?
SPIF - Spain, Portugal, Italy AND France. Or the FIPS. PIFS.....
They have the right to vote, just not the paper for ballots.
Why doesn't Varoufakis start doing some real talking.
Start a rumor that Greece, Italy, and Portugal are going to all default at once in solidarity.
Just start making shit up to rock the boat. That is all the EU does.
pods
"Just start making shit up to rock the boat."
Yeah, just tear a page out of a worn out playbook.
Greece is screwed up, but the EU demonstrates what evil looks like. There must be something in the water over there......
EU is puppet of USA thats why
and the USA is a puppet of? bring it all the way home, boy
Zionist banking cabal ?
Did I get it ?
Yeah, it's so evil for Brussels to ask that Greece pay them back. Debt is wealth!
Actually debt is unrealized or future wealth.
We're about to see there's a very distinct difference.
It ain't wealth until it's in your hands.
And if it's printed, well, that can be a tenuous wealth too. Paper representing only an accounting entry.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/331287504656?lpid=82&chn=ps
Are those same people the ones supporting Ukraine? If YES why be surprised?
Welcome to the Animal Farm.
Greece doesn't border Russia.
Too bad for you, Greece.
This is amazing, I thought what goes behind closed doors stays behind closed doors. Varoufakis should be /insert your own verb here/ for his openess!
How aboult "praised"
USA/EU don't recognize peoples right to self determination.
They bashed the Crimea referendum where people joyfully voted to join Russia. It wasn't even covered in USA Pravda media but we have all the videos.
Then they armed the NeoNazis in Kiev who have killed over 6000 people simply because they had a referendum and voted for independence.
USA/EU (actually EU is the puppet of the USA) have gone over to the dark side , supporting genocides in 2 places (going on 3) if you count Yemen, simultaneously.
You know our .gov, never miss an opporutnity to sponsor and arm a cruel dictator who seeks to oppress.
yup, the ascendancy of "national interest" over what's right and good. and yes, i know what this means for foreign policy. flame away....
Greece got Goldman to help them squeeze into a corset to make themselves not look like a lazy fatass, then sold itself into indentured servitude to the EU, and then promptly laid around and did nothing, all while still expecting to have its food and shelter to be provided for them by Germany. It should be no surprise that the master's whip is now upon them.
Just a pile of stinky ignorance and propaganda parroting.
more like the right to suggest
Its a no brainer that you have to arrest the bankers and put them in prison or exile them. They are like pedophiles that can't stop until locked up. I've been trying to get somebody, anybody to issue the arrest warrants for Blankfein and Dimon for at least a year now. But no, nobody listens to the Q99X2.
Just remember, the last time the guillotine was used @ Place de la Concord, very few 1%ers felt that gentle pressure on their neck.
Lol.
Then they went to work on the 50% ers... then the 75% ers...And all the ones that thought maybe enough was enough...
Then they said "Fuck it" and went after the chief headchopper himself. Not exactly a stirring example of self rule.
After that mess they got that short lil fucker running amok in Europe.
What could be the worst thing imaginable for Europe?
An alliance of Germans and France. The two bad examples of history.
Hey...wait a minute...
Why would they need a(nother) week? The handwriting has been on the wall for a long time. The Greeks will default.
As for the speech, WTF is it with Greeks whining about "social injustice?" The social justice is you borrow money and then you repay it as agreed. THAT is "social justice." Any other act that doesn't involve paying off your debts as agreed is the "social injustice."
At the level of events we are discussing, the modern central banking system conjures money out of thin air. It is not money "earned" by the banks in any sense whatsoever; nor is it acquired through taxation. NOBODY worked for it, but it was "lent" to governments, whose people had to produce real goods and services in exchange.
The world is currently run by criminal parasites in control of a sleight-of-hand monetary system that only looks legitimate on the surface and whose sole purpose is simply to enslave entire nations for the benefit of exceedingly small minority.
"THAT is social injustice"
This is true, but Greece's people knew that and they were free to take the money at a given (low) interest rate.
There was plenty of "thin air" money (by the way, thin air or not, it is still money, the same money that paid Greek's social benefits and that could pay back the Greek debt right now), and STILL the Greeks did not do their homework balancing their accounts.
To make thinghs worse, a communist government that naturally tends to relativize property rights.
First of all, it is extremely unlikely that the Greek people themselves ever saw so much as a penny of the currency they are now alleged to "owe" the EU (Germany) --being all siphoned off on high level scams and frauds.
However, the real point of all this is, that this degree and kind of indebtedness is simply not possible in a real money system backed by actual physical assets --not the fakery of corrupt, power grabbing, bureaucratic orcs.
By your remarks, it's clear to those of us who have actually been on the forum for awhile, that you're just another clueless, 'twelve week, two day member', neocon cheerleader.
>>"First of all, it is extremely unlikely that the Greek people themselves ever saw so much as a penny of the currency they are now alleged to "owe" the EU (Germany) --being all siphoned off on high level scams and frauds."
Do you have any evidence to support this hypothesys?
Even in the case it is true, the Greek government was rightfully elected, it had a legitimate mandate, so it was a sovereign people's decision.
>>"However, the real point of all this is, that this degree and kind of indebtedness is simply not possible in a real money system backed by actual physical assets --not the fakery of corrupt, power grabbing, bureaucratic orcs."
Agreed, it would never be possible. However, the real world we live in is not that way. People are often ressented because their money aparently is "thin air", but I dont see anyone burning money, instead we exchange this "thin air" by solid goods, such as food and gold for example.
"By your remarks, it's clear to those of us who have actually been on the forum for awhile, that you're just another clueless, 'twelve week, two day member', neocon cheerleader."
Argumentum ad hominem. By insulting and disqualifying the interlocutor, you probably want to look for support, I dont know. Being rude doent make you right. And yes, I am new to this forum. So what? More experienced members use to be rude? Is that your point?
There is another meaning that includes predators force more loans on your back as "help" that you can't possibly repay especially with the forced austerity measures that crippled a countrys economy. Then the looting party begins in the name of "pay your debts" pseudomorality preaching.
The facts are that they "helped" a country with 130% debt by raising up to 175% droping in the same time the GDP 25% and counting.
But the system has all the propaganda means to spape "public opinions" like the above.
The term "loan sharks" springs to mind.
Why does this surpise anyone? Bankers are sociopaths, and what they are saying and doing is simply the sociopath way. It's been done time after time for eons. Nothing changes until the sheeple are literally starving in the streets, and that sadly means it is going to get much much much worse for everyone. Plan accordingly.
Hardly the birth of tyranny or the failure to allow the people to decide. Such has been the case even in this supposedly "free" country for a very long time. http://www.thetruthaboutthelaw.com/they-tell-big-lies-about-our-supposed...
Not for ODIOUS debt....
So Italy, Portugal and Spain.... shouldn't Cyprus be popping back up with a bond issue too? ....or maybe they don't have anything left to take so it's inconsequential?
He speaks truth.
In Canada and the USA effective democracy, referendums and such died years ago.
In today's age with Internet, it should be a fairly simple task to get the votes on important issues, like sending troops and arms anywhere, free trade agreements which are not free, and a basketful of other issues which affect Main Street and which Main Street has no say.
Greece is setting a good example to the Euro hoodlums which choose to force their bullshit down the throats of the common person.
You do not want a democracy in actuality, only in concept.
depends what "in" is.
Shocking that it has come to such arrogance and dictatorship by the EU bully banksters
Yeah wouldn't it be great if these Greek assholes were actually sticking it up to the bully banksters of your fantasy.
Except they ain't. They are fucking over each and every taxpayer in the EZ. While posing as socialist rebels, all for gullible fucktards like you.
wrong ---It's just self interest
Doom:
Your anger is misdirected. Who enabled this moral hazard? Who stood to quickly gain from it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07-hA9DW-Po
Yeah sure even greasy Greeks have a right to vote, but what about the democratic rights of all the other Europeans in the EZ? They are the ones footing the bill for this shitfest. Not the fucking Greek fucktards holding up one hand while presenting the finger with the other.
Fuck these fuckers, fuck the mothers who brought them in and fuck everyone here thinking this is about the democratic rights of these deadbeat good-for-nothing degenerates and their pathetic excuse for a society.
Perhaps you should hold your own government accountable for lending your treasure to an insolvent nation to protect bankers before looking for demons outside your borders.
Nobody enjoys finding out they are the dumb money in an investment.
Sure, I do that too. Which is why I don't want it to send a single more of our euros to this failed nation filled with entitled morons.
Which is also why I couldn't give a flying fuck about the Greeks' democratic rights to vote to plunder their fellow Europeans some more.
And any way, this hasn't been about 'protecting bankers' for a long time. Those assholes left the Greek whore over and done with years ago.
You are mistaken Greece with your mother.
Small dicked keyboard bravery.
You went too goddamn far. Greeks do have their fair share of problems, but what ECB did to them and most other EU "nation states" is beyond reprehensible. Bad and I do mean really, piss poor, kick in the nuts, spit in the face, cheap shot to the liver, albatross' daily dump on the head bad governance is to be blamed here. Politicians for sale, soulless freaks, motherless beasts; they are to be blamed.
However, I do agree that each nation has the kind of government that it deserves. I also have to concur that price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Doing the right things is hard.
Hopefully the Greeks will follow in Iceland's steps and show the light to all the sheeple.
Typical socalist. It's never THEIR problem, it's always someone else's fault.
Is this what happens when other people's money runs out?
oops - duplicate
If voting changed anything they would make it illegal. Oh wait..... Looks like they did.
Breaking: A plane carrying a load of Nail guns was seen flying over Greece..
We are watching the total collapse of Democracy and the birth of a new era – Economic Totalitarianism from Arrogant people who are totally clueless beyond their own greed for power and money.
And we sit here allowing it to happen and the snark cock suckers know we wont do shit to stop them...
Perhaps they should have scheduled a vote BEFORE the program expires. The way they handled it stinks of milking the tit for a few extra billion in a desperate attempt of blackmail (we will instruct the people to vote no, accept our view and we will instruct them to vote yes). Too bad for Yanis and pals the Eurogroup actually called the bluff.
When a people, through democracy, vote for serfdom (which debt brings), does it matter how evil the lords are? Who's to blame? Really.
"Denial of people's right to vote" is not what's happening at all: Discrediting Tsipras and you, Greece's bold, new, independent leaders, causing a blue-white popular protest movement that results in you fleeing to Russia, so the troika can install a puppet regime that will take on endless more debt and austerity - is what the Brussels bastards are all about. Tell 'em to shove it and move on.
wait a sec...i thought the Greeks WANT TO STAY IN THE EURO (ie gravy train). He's confusing 'right to vote' with 'obligation to pay their taxes" equal retirement age, poor governance (they elected 'em) etc.
when the only positive retail sales are for camoflauge swimming pool covers, its a problem
IMF is going to "insist" on "depositor losses" again. I bet this time they wont get billions of dollars in Russian's money though.
The usual up Ms.No however NOBODY steals from the Russian Mafia. Contracts would be on the heads of the EuroCrats.
Bankers can't bribe the entire Greek population to vote their way. So a general vote won't be allowed to happen - even in the birthplace of democracy.
Vourafakis should know better than most that he's dealing with the DEVIL.
This will all eventually end with austerity and then a violent revolution conducted asymmetrically against the politicians and bankers.
Varoufukis is an idiot
who sat for 12 years at Sydney Uni lecturing "Game theory" to naive "students",
wasting their time listening to his crap. They would have been better of learning to count.
Then Varoufakis big break came when the lazy fat Greeks were dumb enough to vote for desperation and failure,
by voting these two corrupt and deceitful liars - Tsipras and Varoufakis, into what they now call a "Greek Government".
The Greek People of course deserve what they voted for.But they don't deserve to be deceived and lied to.
Tsipras and Varoufakis are the only ones making any money out of this...
and that's what Game Theory is all about:
Playing Poker with the Greek economy,
guess who wins and who loses ?
Tsipras and Varoufukis should go to Jail !
WR;)
And as we see in posts like this, racism is far from over in the european continent, especially when Germans are expressing their thoughts.
So are you having a "final solution" for fat lazy Greeks this time?
So Greece gets some politicians who, unlike their predecessors, refuse to be personally bought off by the EU/ECB and their banker cronies, and those politicians are "corrupt".
You really have fallen down the rabbit hole Alice.
Anyone on ZH willing to buy new Greek debt without any conditions requiring changes to the way they run things?
I didn't think so.
Depends.
You gonna bail em out again?
As long are the Germans willing or not the rest will follow, it finaly came to that.
All together now you Greek grannies
A..one......a two.....a three
Deutschland Deutschland ueber alles
USA has a printing press but in fact has been bankrupt for quite some time.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/21...
Where does USA rank here?
You're never bankrupt with a printing press.
You're only bankrupt when people stop taking your paper.
We have guns for that contingency. That's how it works.
Yes, the world knows now that USA is just a nation of bullies and warmongers.
How come its one of the smallest econimies that has the balls to stand for democracy in the rest of Europe I think one day in the not to distant future we will be paying a huge debt of gratitude to Varoufakis and Tsipras for thier stand against the dictatiors who use taxation without repersentation.
Just why had millions of soldiers to die in 2 world wars, sacrificed on the alter of averice and greed I fear and we may end up in the same place again soon if the populace carry on sleepwalking to disaster
The Francis Urquhart quote was a nice touch:
"You may very well say that, but I shall not comment."
bringing to the front that it really is a House of Cards we're watching. Will the Troika slip the knife in or will Syriza survive? Will the Greeks hold fast or will they fold and turn on the Govt.
The last 2 years have been a long exhausting season where you watch the battle lines maneuvering but now we're at the season finale.
Stay tuned for the Final Cut.
It is very important that the people who were smart enough to wait until this weekend to withdraw their money have a say in the government.
Funny, but disturbing ramifications involved in that statement.
Allowing the truly stupid to vote is like letting a videogamer fly a jumbo jet because "Like dude, I've done this landing thing like 1000 times on my PS3."
The results are predictable.
The entire human species has been enslaved by the bankers. There can be no freedom until the people of every country cast off the chains of debt slavery.
So, Varoufakis should level with the Greek people by telling them that being part of the Euro and the European Union is akin to being imprisoned.
I'm not saying that it's easy or painless to claim one's freedom. But it's preferable to the endless purgatory of banker-created debt.
Abolish the banks and reclaim your freedom!
Like they never fucking spent the money, do me a favour.
If you're Greek you should be feeling proud!
Ignore the haters and their paradoxes.
I am really finding it hard to see the Greeks as victims more and more.
They are really good at blaming everyone else.
When it is based on facts and admissions of their ovn mistakes by the creditors blaming "others" is quite fair.