Is This Why 'Europe' Is Now Trying To Crush Greece?

Tyler Durden's picture

Via The NY Times,

To the Editor:


If, as Paul Krugman suggests, Greece leaves the euro and returns to the drachma, and if it is then successful at reconfiguring its economy and managing to re-establish a functional government that collects taxes and pays debts, wouldn’t this encourage other economically struggling states like Italy, Ireland, Portugal and even France to abandon the union?


Won’t a successful Greece show others that — much as many young people who cannot afford to pay their rent return home — they, too, can return to the way things used to be?


If Greece does what seems so difficult, won’t it encourage a dissolution of the European Union?




New York

*  *  *

Simply put -  Europe can't 'afford' anything positive to come of Greece...

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myne's picture

Wow even Kruggs can see it. 

BrosephStiglitz's picture

Kruggs isn't that bad.  I realize these days that Keynesians like Kruggs are basically advocated monetizing government debt because....


If you have a state-sanctioned ponzi that is choking the life out of every financial (and eventually through spillover) the real economic transactions, you are faced with two choices:

1. Monetize the debt.
2. Collapse the system entirely (probably causing huge amounts of misery) and install something new.

Kruggs advocates taking the "easy" solution to the problem. Now.. the Rogoff/Buiter camp: don't get me started on them. No appreciation for the independence of your average human.

(And yet, those same humans have worked in technological fields and advanced human society by leaps and bounds while public governance hasn't advanced since the Italian city-states invented public bonds.)

Edit: In short:

KEYNESIANS/MONETARISTS: We are stuck with a dumb system, so we need to deal with it in a pragmatic manner.
AUSTRIANS: We are stuck with a dumb system, so let it unravel and find a new solution. 

Supernova Born's picture

Celebrate diversity.

Fight Globalism.

tc06rtw's picture

 We are stuck with a dumb system…

In other words:
It’s your own fault for living too long!

weburke's picture

elites want greece property, which the local greeks are cooperating with by not paying their morgages. all by design. plus other purposes.

eclectic syncretist's picture

The ECB and IMF are trying "to make an example" of Greece in order to discourage other countries from doing the sensible thing and getting out of the Euro.

BlowsAgainsttheEmpire's picture

Of course this is what scares the EU-firsters.  You can't have the benefits and spoils from a forced union unless that union is enforced.  They know that a larger example of Iceland - drop out, take the pain, rapid recovery, move on - is going to kill the EU and Euro. 

Hail Spode's picture

In the end, it is going to be either Localism or Globalism. And by localism I don't just mean a decentralized government, but a system built on the awareness that government does not stay decentralized unless certain things are done


Haus-Targaryen's picture

This is yet another reason why they cannot let Greece leave.  Aside from the financial apocalypse unleashed on the FIIPS -- if Greece gets better with the Drachma than the Euro, the people wanting to leave in the FIIPS will be ever more overwhelming.  

Thus, Greece has to stay.  If it does leave, TPTB must do everything in their power to crush Greece.  

If you are Greek, put this in the back of your mind.  

Haus-Targaryen's picture

Would you sign an agreement without debt relief? "I prefer to cut my arm off", Varoufakis says

He also said he would resign if people vote Yes next week.

Good for him.

Varoufakis -- send me a PM.  Next time you come to Frankfurt, we'll hit up Skygarden and the first round is on me.  

Haus-Targaryen's picture

Varoufakis asserts he thinks Merkel is attempting to overthrow Greek government. 

new game's picture

i like short posts. if the vote comes in no, then there is hope. but yes will confirm that humans' weakness is free shit, tuesdays burger and all that jazz.

still in the camp that greece stays on the dole and withers to 3rd world poverty, because their history and culture say so...

beaglebog's picture



The best predictor of future behaviour, is past behaviour.

chubbar's picture

If the average Greek citizen is as informed as the average American citizen, it'll be a YES vote. We'd be scehduling a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Russia if it was up to the average American dolt roaming the aisles of Walmart or streets of San Francisco.

rwe2late's picture

 Tsipras has "muddled" the waters and confused Greek voters.

For some time Tsipras has (foolishly I think), by word and deed, been telling the Greeks that the

BEST course is to keep the EURO and strike a "deal" with the TROIKA.

He has continued to pay off the "loans" until just recently.

Meanwhile, the TROIKA (include NATO) has been strengthening the "opposition". The MSM has been propagandizing that the only reason a "fair" deal hasn't been reached is because Tsipras is an erratic fool.

And even now, the main argument put forth by Tsipras for a 'NO' vote is that it will allegedly lead to a better deal while still keeping in the EU, NATO, and keeping the euro.

The essential 'radicalism' of Tsipras is questionable.

The weakness is the leaders greater faith in their assumed clever  and expedient politicking, than faith in the common sense of an informed public. It is an arrogant weakness shared by many at ZH.

FlacoGee's picture

Left wing can never pass their agendas by telling the truth.

They strike while morale is at its lowest, promising that things will not (do not need to) change and that pennies from heaven will always flow...  All problems are caused by external influences.

Once in power, they enact their game plan and then the masses realize what a huge mistake they made.

See:  Communism, Barrack Obama, etc.

rwe2late's picture


you are confused


Obama is NOT a "communist".

If you insist on using a left/right paradigm,

Obama was elected on a popular left/liberal platform, (anti-war, anti 1% )

and then once elected switched to a right wing program (pro-war, pro 1%).

It was a right-wing Obama who deceptively campaigned and was elected.


That said, most all politicians, left or right, make excessive and misleading campaign promises (keep us out of war, rectify economic abuses, etc.).

schadenfreude's picture

Of course she does. Tsipras' call for a referendum was a bad move, because it was clear right from the start, that a "Yes" vote would lead to a retreat of the government and a "No" vote would lead to financial collapse. Either way Merkel wins.

At least they tried, but it's hard to stand against 18 countries, if you are ín the beggars position.

DanDaley's picture

FIIPS?  Calling them PIIGS seemed so much more satisfying, somehow.

Marco's picture

Austrians propose letting all collateral default to the few top creditors in a deflationary collapse, creating a concentration of wealth not seen since pre-black death medieval Europe, install a new monetary system and then rely on magic.

shovelhead's picture

Show me who or where that proposal was put forward by any creditable Austrian School advocate.

Good luck.

I agree though, making up harebrained theories on the internet is fun.

BidnessMan's picture

My guess is the collapse of the Soviet Union will be the model. Everyone stays in place where they live now, inflation will wipe out debt and savings, pensioners will be left destitute, but in general people will survive. Oligarchs will arise to scoop up assets.

BlowsAgainsttheEmpire's picture

Agree with your point about Krugman.  I often agree with him on what's wrong but not so much on what needs to be done to fix things.  And I do think he is genuinely motivated to do/recommend what he believes is best for the majority/average guy.  Like everybody else, he has a perspective that drives what he thinks should happen.

Radical Marijuana's picture

It is a typically mistaken application of Hanlon's Razor to say "we are stuck with a dumb system."

While the existing MAD Money As Debt system appears to be based upon incompetent stupidity, or be "dumb," from the perspective of the vast majority of the political puppets, and the masses of muppets that vote for them, that MAD system, whereby governments ENFORCE FRAUDS by privately controlled banks, was due to the persistent application of the methods of organized crime through the political processes, in order to make and maintain ENFORCING FRAUD MADNESS.

While I agreed with the superficial points made by BrosephStiglitz that there appear to be those 2 choices, a deeper analysis of the realities that civilization is controlled by organized crime (debunking the mistaken application of Hanlon's Razor), results in recognition that there could be nothing else possible than some kind of continuation of organized crime controlling civilization, as long as civilization could continue to survive its contradictions that it deliberately ignores and misrepresents those facts about itself as much as possible. Meanwhile, the pyramidion people would prefer to destroy any alternatives that would set any bad examples of what could be possible if those pyramidion people did not continue to control social pyramid systems based on backing up lies with violence.

By and large, both Keynesians and Austrians deliberately ignore the ways that political economy exists inside of human ecology. The core of human ecology, the same as with any other ecology, is that, after life exists, then it is the death control systems which direct the development of the evolutionary ecology of that life form. That has always been the case, and must continue to be the case, as long as life exists. However, the essential feature of the human artificial selection systems, which were directed to develop in the ways that those did by the background natural selection pressures, have channeled the history of successful warfare to become based upon the maximum possible deceits and treacheries. Therefore, the manifestations of the human murder systems, through the history of warfare, were how and why civilization became what it is now, and was the foundation of MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS, which currently dominate the political economy.

Those who presume that there is merely a "dumb system" are making the typical mistake of presuming upon Hanlon's Razor, in ways which are NOT consistent with Occam's Razor, because those presumptions are based on deliberately ignoring the evidence which demonstrates that there was malicious planning behind making and maintaining the MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS. Since the vast majority of the people are merely masses of muppets, while almost all of the successful politicians are puppets, it appears, to people who only superficially regard that situation, to be the case that we have a "dumb system" due to their incompetent stupidity.

However, if one moves through from the consideration of the evidence that the international bankers were the biggest gangsters, or the banksters, who created the DEBT SLAVERY BACKED BY WARS BASED ON DECEIT system deliberately, then one should follow through, after that recognition, towards at least two different, deeper levels. First, it is not a "dumb system," rather it is a system based upon the triumphs of organized crime. Those systems, based on the long history of triumphant organized crime, have developed excessive successes (because most of the public and politicians have been selected to become "dumb" inside of the context of adapting to their world being actually controlled by long established systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, as the existing systems of MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS.) Therefore, the first level of deeper analysis is to recognize how and why the DEBT SLAVERY has necessarily driven the creation of numbers which have become DEBT INSANITIES. In order words, since civilization has been controlled by organized crime, in ways which have become excessively successful, the established systems have become runaway criminal insanities.

However, the second, still deeper level, of analysis is to look at the deeper reasons for how and why civilization is actually controlled by the principles and methods of organized crime, which have manifested through private property being claims backed by coercions, or through money being measurement backed by murder, because the debt controls were backed by the death controls. From that perspective, we do NOT have a "dumb system." Rather we have a system based upon organized crime, whose excessive successfulness has resulted in that system become criminally insane MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS, which more and more suffers from its inherent contradictions, that being able to back up frauds with force never stops those frauds from still be false, and therefore, the apparent social successfulness of that degree of a "dumb system" drives society as a whole to become increasingly psychotic, in the sense that the FRAUDS continue to be ENFORCED, but never stop still being basically false, and therefore, the society as a whole becomes terminally sick and insane, due to the degree to which is is controlled by Huge Lies, backed by Lots of Violence, whereby every increment of short-term and medium term ability to continue to double down on ENFORCING FRAUDS means that civilization actually becomes more psychotically out of touch with relatively objective physical realities, due to the dominance of political perceptions based upon believing in bullshit, and wanting to continue to believe in that bullshit.

Of course, it is correct to assert that: "IT'S A BIG PONZI SCHEME..." However, I would expect that the debt will continue to be monetized, as the vicious spirals of the MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS endeavour to go on doubling down, until that is no longer possible, at which point the diminishing returns from being able to continue to make "money" out of nothing to "pay" for strip-mining the planet at an exponential rate must finally result in situations whereby those will collapse the system entirely.

HOWEVER, at that point I challenge the notion that it will be possible to "install something new." The only things which are "new" are due to the progress in physical science. In that context, there is no doubt that "humans have worked in technological fields and advanced human society by leaps and bounds while public governance hasn't advanced." Or, as I express that, progress in physical science has not been surpassed by progress in political science, because progress in political science would have to surpass the paradigm shifts that have already occurred in physical science.

Human beings and civilizations necessarily exist as entropic pumps of energy flows, while the history of successful warfare based on backing up deceits with destruction, morphing to become successful finance based on enforcing frauds, has resulted in the political perceptions of that becoming as backwards as possible, with the most abstract way that developed being that the entropy equations of thermodynamics and information theory had an arbitrary minus sign inserted into them, in order to reverse the apparent meaning of entropy, so that reversed meaning would be consistent with presenting the biggest bullies' bullshit world view, that their relative degrees of organized crime had relative positive values, rather than were relative negative values.

The sources of that go back to human beings living by killing and eating other organisms. That was always the manifestation of human beings acting as entropic pumps of energy flows. The source of the misunderstandings were to regard killing and eating other living beings as being absolutely positive events, rather than as relatively negative events. Human beings always lived through systems of organized lies operating robberies. A long time ago, those human beings were not as skillful and successful at lying to themselves about that. (Animism, and other earlier forms of spirituality and mysticism, enabled people living less aliened from nature to have more ecological wisdom, selected by their longer term survival within the ecosystems that surrounded them.) However, the development of Neolithic Civilization was the development of kinds of totalitarian agriculture, with human slavery being the core of that social pyramid system. Those systems have developed at an exponential rate, due to progress in physical science, without any similar progress being allowed in political science, because such progress in political science would require radical transformations in the ways that politics was perceived, which would contradict the ways that the slave masters wanted to be promoted.

Of course, changing the ways that we perceived political problems would not initially change those problems. However, eventually, that could result in us changing the ways that we responded to those problems. I return to my two points of deeper analysis above: FIRST, the real world is controlled by the methods of organized crime, and SECOND, the real world must necessarily be controlled by the methods of organized crime. The established systems of MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS are not "dumb systems," except when one only looks at the people who are being controlled by those systems of organized crime, namely almost all of the political puppets and the masses of muppets.

The paradoxes that arise when one goes through deeper levels of analysis is that it becomes clearer that the only genuine solutions would have to be better organized crime. In particular, better death controls, to back up better debt controls, in order to operate better integrated money/murder systems, which were better integrated human, industrial and natural ecologies. However, at the present time, almost nobody embraces those paradoxes. Rather, we are living inside of a Bizarro Mirror World, or Wonderland Matrix, where everything appears backwards and absurd, because of the ways that governments were always the biggest forms of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals, but thereby get away with almost totally lying about that to everyone, including themselves.

Inside of the mainstream, mass media, perception of our political problems, there is increasingly a struggle to continue to deliberately ignore and misrepresent the ways that the debt slavery systems have generated numbers which are debt insanities. In some of the alternative views, there is some recognition of those social facts, but still only on relatively superficial levels. There is some superficial facing of the FIRST level of deeper analysis, but usually totally without going through the deeper SECOND level of analysis ... and none done of the deeper levels that follow after that!

I REPEAT: the existing systems are based upon organized crime, which have become runaway criminal insanities, due to those becoming excessively successful ENFORCED FRAUDS. The only genuine solutions to those political problems would require better organized crime, because it is not possible for human beings to stop being entropic pumps of energy flows. However, it would be possible to correct the errors that we regard entropy backwards, which follows through to manifest as all of the bogus "solutions" backfiring badly, because those deliberately do not become more realistic, since there is almost nothing but a core of organized crime, surrounded by layers of controlled opposition groups, both of which stay within the same frame of reference by presenting everything backwards, in ways which become increasingly absurd, due to having to more and more deliberately ignore the most important social facts, in ways which also tend to develop attitudes of evil deliberate ignorance towards the basic biological and physical facts.

The comment above, that I am replying to, is currently being twice as much down voted as up voted. I gave it an up-vote because I thought it was superficially correct. However, as one other previous reply stated: "You can't have the benefits and spoils from a forced union unless that union is enforced." The European Union, with the Euro, were a stealthy project carried through by the international banksters, as the pyramidion people in the established pyramid systems, which have been in vicious spirals of feedback in the form of organized lies, operating robberies, concentrating wealth and power at the top of those social pyramid systems, so that, in turn, those systems could continue to control the political puppets, and misinform the masses of muppets, in order to carry through the banksters' agenda, attempting to consolidate globalized systems based upon MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS.

Greece, with relative alacrity, after joining the EU, and adopting the Euro (with the assistance of Goldman Sachs) was able to rapidly go from merely being inside of debt slavery, to developing runaway debt insanities. However, it is still relatively rare for people to think through the deeper levels of analysis regarding how and why that happened, and therefore, very rare for people to propose any genuine solutions to those problems which are consistent with those levels of deeper analysis, because that requires recognizing that not only are the established systems based on triumphant organized crime, but that also the existing systems must be based on organized crime, since the core issues are necessarily the death control systems.

I REPEAT, the established systems are due to excessively successful organized crime, becoming runaway criminal insanities. However, since nothing else exists than the dynamic equilibria between different systems of organized lies operating robberies, the only realistic resolutions of those problems which could actually exist would be by changing those dynamic equilibria. However, since the established systems are almost nothing but organized crime, surrounded by controlled opposition, both of which operate inside of the same frame of reference, based on the maximum possible deceits and frauds being presented as relatively positive things, rather than as relatively negative things, we continue to see bogus "solutions" which are backwards and absurd being promoted, which continue to backfire badly.

The INTENSE PARADOXES with respect to progress in physical science without surpassing progress in political science are due to the intense paradoxes inherent to the current forms of "political science" being subsets of warfare, whose successes continue to be based upon deceits and treacheries. Within that context, all of the publicly significant schools of economics present everything in as backwards, and therefore absurd, ways possible. Since human beings and civilizations operate as entropic pumps of energy flows, but the biggest bullies' bullshit world view has dominated everything, so much, for so long, so that almost everyone continues to take for granted their misunderstanding the concept of entropy in the most backwards and absurd ways possible (which had historical sources that have been flowing through and through history, long before the sciences of thermodynamics and information theory were developed), we are living inside of an oxymoronic scientific dictatorship, that is not scientific about itself, but only more scientific about applying technologies to enable it to become better at backing up lies with violence.

It is currently too politically impossible to reconcile the entrenched MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS with the general energy systems that are used to understand industrial and natural systems, because doing so takes facing the facts that civilization both does and must operate according to the principles and methods of organized crime, which developed due to the most important events being the human murder systems, whose supreme ideology was militarism, inside of which economics developed. The production of destruction always controlled production. However, all of that is as deliberately denied and ignored as much as possible, by all of the publicly significant schools of economics. Instead, a ridiculously false view of "production" and the "growth of production" is promoted, which deliberately ignores how "money" is being made out of nothing as debts, in order to "pay" for strip-mining the planet's natural resources, while simultaneously that fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems is able to discount and disregard, as much as possible, the accompanying increase in garbage and pollution.

The ways that civilization is controlled by MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS are due to civilization operating according to the principles and methods of organized crime, whose excessive successes have resulted in their being almost nothing but controlled opposition groups that surround that core of organized crime, while none of those are able and willing to go through the kinds of paradigm shifts that it would take to better understand what their problems actually are, especially since doing so is in head-on collisions with all the most fortified social taboo topics. Of course, inside that context, the banksters' "Europe" is attempting to crush Greece. However, those who only superficially recognize those facts then can still promote bogus "solutions," which get away with deliberately ignoring how and why civilization actually developed on the basis of larger and larger scale organized crime, which has been amplified to astronomical sizes by progress in physical science ... The human species can not survive those contradictions without going through series of intellectual scientific revolutions, that would apply to political science, and therefore, apply to the combined money/murder systems.

All of the other various dualities, e.g., centralization versus decentralization, or globalism versus localism, and so on and so forth, are useless and misleading if those continue to be presented as dualities, expressed through impossible ideals, rather than expressed as working through unitary mechanisms. There is only one energy, and therefore, there is only one political system, which is organized crime. There are no genuine solutions which could exist otherwise than as better organized crime. That would be possible if enough people understood that, in order to enable there to be better dynamic equilibria between the different systems of organized lies. The only connection between human laws and natural laws is the ability to back up lies with violence. Human beings necessarily live that way. Meanwhile, the biggest bullies have been able to promote their bullshit that somehow legalizing lies, and enforcing those with legalized violence, stops those from still basically being lies and violence. In those ways, the biggest and best organized gangs of criminals, i.e., governments, and the banksters, et alia, were able to promote the false fundamental dichotomies between them versus other organized crime gangs. That was always a profoundly unscientific view, while any "solutions" which would stop that from happening were also always profoundly unscientific views.

The problems that Europe, and the rest of the world, have are the excessive successes of the biggest and best organized gangs of criminals being able to control their opposition so much, for so long, that the vast majority of people do not understand that, and do not want to understand that. Therefore, the political puppets of the best organized gangs of criminals, the banksters, continue to be elected by enough of the muppets, so that the MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS continue. However, at the same time, there is almost no publicly significant real opposition, and even less general public understanding, which faces the deeper levels of the reasons how and why human beings and civilizations actually operate as general energy systems, and must necessarily continue to do so, as long as they continue to be able to survive.

Philosophically speaking, the vast majority of human beings misunderstand entropy in absurdly backwards ways, which is expressed in the ways that they misunderstand economics in absurdly backwards ways, which is due to the history of successful warfare being based upon deceits and treacheries, which has become excessively successful in the from of fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, based upon MADLY ENFORCING FRAUDS, in ways that almost everyone either takes for granted, and/or deliberately ignores. In the context of the comment above, by BrosephStiglitz, it is CORRECT to state that: "humans have worked in technological fields and advanced human society by leaps and bounds while public governance hasn't advanced." HOWEVER, THE DEEPER REASONS FOR THAT ARE THAT "GOVERNANCE" IS NECESSARILY BASED UPON THE PRINCIPLES AND METHODS OF ORGANIZED CRIME, WITH THE HUMAN MURDER SYSTEMS AS THE MOST EXTREME FORM OF THE DEATH CONTROL SYSTEMS.

When one becomes more deeply scientific about human beings and civilizations, one recognizes that it is a FALSE FUNDAMENTAL DICHOTOMY to perceive "government versus organized crime." Rather, "government" must be the biggest form of organized crime, which is controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals, which are currently the biggest banks, and the big corporations that have grown up around those banks controlling the public "money" supply, by being able to make that "money" out of nothing as debts, while governments enforced those frauds. However, any possible alternative monetary systems which could actually exist must still be based upon the ways that money is measurement backed by murder.

Everywhere in the world, the established systems of debt slavery are turning into debt insanity (with the underlying issues being how much natural resources are left to continue to be strip-mined, in order to keep those debt engine treadmills of MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS going, and growing, rather than stop growing, which will cause them to collapse into crazy chaos, because nothing in previous human history has adapted to that happening in any overall and systematic ways.) By definition, what will stop endless exponential growth must be some form of death controls. At the present time, that is set up to happen through debt insanities provoking death insanities. Inside of that context, there are no other better resolutions of the real problems than to develop better death control systems. However, since the existing systems are based on the maximum possible deceits about themselves, and that deceitful frame of reference is shared and also upheld by the controlled opposition groups, that surround the core of the organized crime gangs actually operating the existing systems, there are no good reasons to doubt that we are necessarily headed towards the runway debt insanities provoking runaway death insanities.

One of the many manifestations of that will surely be that the bankster controlled "Europe" will continue to try to crush Greek resistance to their drowning in their debt insanity situations. Greeks are starting to recognize the degree to which the Euro denominated debts are mostly odious debts, due to the degree that those Euros were made ex nihilo, and that subsequent doses of more of that money made out of nothing as debts has mostly been recycled back to the big banks, that originally had the legal privilege of being able to make those Euros, as the public "money" supply, out of nothing as debts. (As numerous articles on Zero Hedge have been explaining.)

At the present time, the banksters' previous systems of paper frauds, backed by the force of gunpowder, have become globalized electronic monkey money frauds, backed by the force of apes with atomic bombs. Meanwhile, that same development of globalized electronic communications is enabling us to collectively discuss the repercussions of the events in Greece, as one of the leading edges where debt slavery has become debt insanity, to such a drastic degree that Greeks are being forced to face those social facts, at least to some extent ...

forexskin's picture

another repetitive purge... musta been saving it up. brevity man, brevity.

F0ster's picture

Vote 'OXI' for humanity

Oh and "Fuck the EU"

Sages wife's picture

Wow, I never considered that Nuland might be Greek. Now I'm getting confused. Speaking of confusion, Greece is the Trojan Horse. They will force the Empire to deal their mightiest blow, show their hand, expose the depth of their dedication to tyranny for all the world to see, and then humanity will come to the rescue. Yes, I mean the BRICS and friends. Third world nations understand austerity; just ask John Perkins.

Luc X. Ifer's picture

Certainly, there must be a crushing example of how dangerous and how much pain comes out from going off-the-grid.

Colonel Klink's picture

Be sure to look for fireworks going off courtesy of the IMF/EU/etc.  You know they'll be doing everything they can to make sure Greece is a royal clusterfuck.  They'll do their best to erect a monetary "hot gate" for Greece.

One way Greece can stop it, is to jail, try, and execute the banksters and politicians (international too, if they can get their hands on them).

Make a Legarde leather skin rug and maybe a few dozen lamp shades.

Outlaw_Rambler's picture

It's not just Europe who can't 'afford' anything positive. Succesfull Greece could mean the beginning of something beautiful for the whole world, and TPTB won't allow it

FlacoGee's picture

Oh look...  Unicorns that fart rainbows

Please show me when Greece was prosperous and successful.

Once of the great things about reading "Atlas Shrugged" is that it is timeless.    Mexico 90 years ago is the same Mexico we have today.

Greece 50 years ago is the Greece we have today.



rwe2late's picture


I believe if you will unbiasedly expand your reading,

you will discover that "Atalas Shrugged" is not the "timeless" bible you think it is,

nor is Greece the same as 50 years ago,

nor Mexico the same as 90 years ago.


Outlaw_Rambler's picture

Did I say it was prosperous?  If they will manage to rebound after telling EU to fuck off, that would be a sucess. You should stop reading old fantasy novels and get back to the real world where none of us is really prosperous and successful unless we actually do someting about that

Right-on Left-off's picture

Well that sure is a possibility !!!!   ... and assuredly something for the 'Elites' to be deathly afraid of.  Who is this Martin Braun guy ?????  He just dropped a big one.

Then ... two Icelandic economic paradigms on the same planet.  Obviously this planet is not big enough for that, let alone 9 Billion people.  ;-)

Dare me ... if you dare, Greece should say.

JohninMK's picture

Not so much who is Martin Braun, more how on earth did the PTB in the NYT allow it to be published?

Watson's picture

The problem is that although
Greece leaves the euro and returns to the drachma
_may_ cure some problems of a purely economic nature,

whether or not Greeks can establish a
...functional government that collects taxes...
has nothing to do using/not using the euro, and everything to do with the attitude of Greeks to their own State.


Cacete de Ouro's picture

All the more reason for Greece to leave now ASAP..

Debugas's picture

the real problem is DEBT

creditors do not want to restructure

so the greeks have to show middle finger, balance their budget and defend their property from creditors

new game's picture

so the majority of greeks need to wake up and think differently. ha, not happening. people generally don't change. still trying to get my wife to understand...

and that is why people drink themselves to an early death. change is a false hope cause it aint happenin.

goode gum drops for all

harrybrown's picture

if greece gives them the middle finger, which i really hope they will, watch false flags & a civil war happen pretty quickly... the zionists become totally ruthless when they are cornered & know no bounds on death destruction or savagery... WW1 & WW2, Palestine, 911 all being good examples of their standard MO. for further reading see the protocols of zion

One way or another greece must stand up & we must all stand up with her

BidnessMan's picture

Pensioners, government bureaucrats, and hair dressers who retired at 50 from their "hazardous" jobs are going to start a civil war? Really?

What might they actually do in this civil war? Write letters and memos? Send nasty emails? Just don't see a lot of potential for violence from these groups.

Realname's picture

If Larry 'Pull It' Silverstein leases any office buildings in Greece Id steer well clear of said buidlings.

darteaus's picture

And a successful Socialist, Communist, or Fascist state would prove the validity of those models also.

Any model though, that takes from the productive and gives to the ruling class soon runs out of productive assets and productive people.

So, like every other concern that consumes more than is produces, it will go bust.

Why.Not.'s picture

What a laugher. Krugman is only raising the possibility of a "recovery" because once divorced from the euro, Greece can pump an ever-increasing number of ever-more-worthless drachmas into its economy - or what passes for one - and prosperity per the Krugman Doctrine of Infinite QE is assured.

BrosephStiglitz's picture

I don't think that's it really.  More a case of Greece escaping creditors who are trying to enforce a perpetuity on public sector debt at a time when Greece cannot devalue their debt.

In short, if Greece escaped the Eurozone, and managed to stay sane politically (which is a big "if" given vested interests, see: probably turned into a failed state by their neighbors/external creditors out of spite) they would see real economic growth in the short-run. They could (and would) declare most debts to be illegal, probably take ownership of local productive assets and so on. They'd see real growth.

What is being done to the Greek people is quite inhumane right now and it's all to maintain external power and wealth. 

cwsuisse's picture

This is an answer to HTZMR that slipped into the wrong place: Let us assume a family in Berlin led an excessive life on transfer payments and consumer credits. Grandma's savings have been exhausted. The family members did not work in the last 10 years and suddenly everything comes to a halt because there are no more consumer credits available and the transfer payments stop (this is unfortunately not realistic in Berlin). Then comes the cruel moment of awakening, the moment that you describe above. But there is not much chance. The family is forced to start from the very beginning. And after adaption and lots of efforts the family's situation is going to improve. Do you you really believe that Greece will ever get out of the pit unless the assume responsibility for their own fate? How should they ever get rid of their debt?  Only by full default! And with an own currency they could determine the price for their products and services on the market. 

HTZMR's picture

I dont think any euro area taxpayers are still living in some illusion about this. The debt that Greece owes will simply be transferred back proportionately to the various states, whose debt ratios will jump, erasing any minimal progress made in stabilizing them. The best thing for both sides is a divorce. But as i said in another comment, Greece is not Iceland, its Argentina. Even when the country stabilizes, its institutions are weak, its morale as debtors is apparently non existent, and it cannot be trusted to ever enact reforms or reduce the size of its bureacracy. Left to itself, it has even less of a chance to modernize itself. Bond markets wont touch it. I see only black for the country, so best that Europe cuts the cords and focuses on improving the lives for the remaining citizens - it already has enough work to do on that front.

Diplodicus Rex's picture

I have news for you. The Greek people were never "lent" anything. The creation of digital currency out of thin air by a bunch of criminals can in no way be described as "lending".  It is fraud, pure and simple.  Counterfeiting by any other name. It is not incumbent on anyone to pay back that which was never "lent". If you promote the propaganda that the Greeks should pay back "what they owe" then you are part of the problem. Expose the fraud that is Fractional Reserve Banking for what it is. 

Crawdaddy's picture

+1 for nailing it. Standing 0 for doing the nailing in one short paragraph.

wildbad's picture

geez..ya think? are all of them hung over from Dom P.?  oh..BTW  (iceland did it already)