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Is This Why 'Europe' Is Now Trying To Crush Greece?
To the Editor:
If, as Paul Krugman suggests, Greece leaves the euro and returns to the drachma, and if it is then successful at reconfiguring its economy and managing to re-establish a functional government that collects taxes and pays debts, wouldn’t this encourage other economically struggling states like Italy, Ireland, Portugal and even France to abandon the union?
Won’t a successful Greece show others that — much as many young people who cannot afford to pay their rent return home — they, too, can return to the way things used to be?
If Greece does what seems so difficult, won’t it encourage a dissolution of the European Union?
MARTIN BRAUN
New York
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Simply put - Europe can't 'afford' anything positive to come of Greece...
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Wow even Kruggs can see it.
Kruggs isn't that bad. I realize these days that Keynesians like Kruggs are basically advocated monetizing government debt because....
IT'S A BIG PONZI SCHEME...
If you have a state-sanctioned ponzi that is choking the life out of every financial (and eventually through spillover) the real economic transactions, you are faced with two choices:
1. Monetize the debt.
2. Collapse the system entirely (probably causing huge amounts of misery) and install something new.
Kruggs advocates taking the "easy" solution to the problem. Now.. the Rogoff/Buiter camp: don't get me started on them. No appreciation for the independence of your average human.
(And yet, those same humans have worked in technological fields and advanced human society by leaps and bounds while public governance hasn't advanced since the Italian city-states invented public bonds.)
Edit: In short:
KEYNESIANS/MONETARISTS: We are stuck with a dumb system, so we need to deal with it in a pragmatic manner.
AUSTRIANS: We are stuck with a dumb system, so let it unravel and find a new solution.
Celebrate diversity.
Fight Globalism.
We are stuck with a dumb system…
elites want greece property, which the local greeks are cooperating with by not paying their morgages. all by design. plus other purposes.
The ECB and IMF are trying "to make an example" of Greece in order to discourage other countries from doing the sensible thing and getting out of the Euro.
Of course this is what scares the EU-firsters. You can't have the benefits and spoils from a forced union unless that union is enforced. They know that a larger example of Iceland - drop out, take the pain, rapid recovery, move on - is going to kill the EU and Euro.
In the end, it is going to be either Localism or Globalism. And by localism I don't just mean a decentralized government, but a system built on the awareness that government does not stay decentralized unless certain things are done http://www.amazon.com/Localism-Philosophy-Government-Mark-Moore/dp/06922...
This is yet another reason why they cannot let Greece leave. Aside from the financial apocalypse unleashed on the FIIPS -- if Greece gets better with the Drachma than the Euro, the people wanting to leave in the FIIPS will be ever more overwhelming.
Thus, Greece has to stay. If it does leave, TPTB must do everything in their power to crush Greece.
If you are Greek, put this in the back of your mind.
Would you sign an agreement without debt relief? "I prefer to cut my arm off", Varoufakis says
He also said he would resign if people vote Yes next week.
Good for him.
Varoufakis -- send me a PM. Next time you come to Frankfurt, we'll hit up Skygarden and the first round is on me.
Varoufakis asserts he thinks Merkel is attempting to overthrow Greek government.
i like short posts. if the vote comes in no, then there is hope. but yes will confirm that humans' weakness is free shit, tuesdays burger and all that jazz.
still in the camp that greece stays on the dole and withers to 3rd world poverty, because their history and culture say so...
The best predictor of future behaviour, is past behaviour.
If the average Greek citizen is as informed as the average American citizen, it'll be a YES vote. We'd be scehduling a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Russia if it was up to the average American dolt roaming the aisles of Walmart or streets of San Francisco.
Tsipras has "muddled" the waters and confused Greek voters.
For some time Tsipras has (foolishly I think), by word and deed, been telling the Greeks that the
BEST course is to keep the EURO and strike a "deal" with the TROIKA.
He has continued to pay off the "loans" until just recently.
Meanwhile, the TROIKA (include NATO) has been strengthening the "opposition". The MSM has been propagandizing that the only reason a "fair" deal hasn't been reached is because Tsipras is an erratic fool.
And even now, the main argument put forth by Tsipras for a 'NO' vote is that it will allegedly lead to a better deal while still keeping in the EU, NATO, and keeping the euro.
The essential 'radicalism' of Tsipras is questionable.
The weakness is the leaders greater faith in their assumed clever and expedient politicking, than faith in the common sense of an informed public. It is an arrogant weakness shared by many at ZH.
Left wing can never pass their agendas by telling the truth.
They strike while morale is at its lowest, promising that things will not (do not need to) change and that pennies from heaven will always flow... All problems are caused by external influences.
Once in power, they enact their game plan and then the masses realize what a huge mistake they made.
See: Communism, Barrack Obama, etc.
flaco
you are confused
Obama is NOT a "communist".
If you insist on using a left/right paradigm,
Obama was elected on a popular left/liberal platform, (anti-war, anti 1% )
and then once elected switched to a right wing program (pro-war, pro 1%).
It was a right-wing Obama who deceptively campaigned and was elected.
That said, most all politicians, left or right, make excessive and misleading campaign promises (keep us out of war, rectify economic abuses, etc.).
Of course she does. Tsipras' call for a referendum was a bad move, because it was clear right from the start, that a "Yes" vote would lead to a retreat of the government and a "No" vote would lead to financial collapse. Either way Merkel wins.
At least they tried, but it's hard to stand against 18 countries, if you are ín the beggars position.
FIIPS? Calling them PIIGS seemed so much more satisfying, somehow.
Austrians propose letting all collateral default to the few top creditors in a deflationary collapse, creating a concentration of wealth not seen since pre-black death medieval Europe, install a new monetary system and then rely on magic.
Show me who or where that proposal was put forward by any creditable Austrian School advocate.
Good luck.
I agree though, making up harebrained theories on the internet is fun.
My guess is the collapse of the Soviet Union will be the model. Everyone stays in place where they live now, inflation will wipe out debt and savings, pensioners will be left destitute, but in general people will survive. Oligarchs will arise to scoop up assets.
Agree with your point about Krugman. I often agree with him on what's wrong but not so much on what needs to be done to fix things. And I do think he is genuinely motivated to do/recommend what he believes is best for the majority/average guy. Like everybody else, he has a perspective that drives what he thinks should happen.
It is a typically mistaken application of Hanlon's Razor to say "we are stuck with a dumb system."
While the existing MAD Money As Debt system appears to be based upon incompetent stupidity, or be "dumb," from the perspective of the vast majority of the political puppets, and the masses of muppets that vote for them, that MAD system, whereby governments ENFORCE FRAUDS by privately controlled banks, was due to the persistent application of the methods of organized crime through the political processes, in order to make and maintain ENFORCING FRAUD MADNESS.
While I agreed with the superficial points made by BrosephStiglitz that there appear to be those 2 choices, a deeper analysis of the realities that civilization is controlled by organized crime (debunking the mistaken application of Hanlon's Razor), results in recognition that there could be nothing else possible than some kind of continuation of organized crime controlling civilization, as long as civilization could continue to survive its contradictions that it deliberately ignores and misrepresents those facts about itself as much as possible. Meanwhile, the pyramidion people would prefer to destroy any alternatives that would set any bad examples of what could be possible if those pyramidion people did not continue to control social pyramid systems based on backing up lies with violence.
By and large, both Keynesians and Austrians deliberately ignore the ways that political economy exists inside of human ecology. The core of human ecology, the same as with any other ecology, is that, after life exists, then it is the death control systems which direct the development of the evolutionary ecology of that life form. That has always been the case, and must continue to be the case, as long as life exists. However, the essential feature of the human artificial selection systems, which were directed to develop in the ways that those did by the background natural selection pressures, have channeled the history of successful warfare to become based upon the maximum possible deceits and treacheries. Therefore, the manifestations of the human murder systems, through the history of warfare, were how and why civilization became what it is now, and was the foundation of MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS, which currently dominate the political economy.
Those who presume that there is merely a "dumb system" are making the typical mistake of presuming upon Hanlon's Razor, in ways which are NOT consistent with Occam's Razor, because those presumptions are based on deliberately ignoring the evidence which demonstrates that there was malicious planning behind making and maintaining the MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS. Since the vast majority of the people are merely masses of muppets, while almost all of the successful politicians are puppets, it appears, to people who only superficially regard that situation, to be the case that we have a "dumb system" due to their incompetent stupidity.
However, if one moves through from the consideration of the evidence that the international bankers were the biggest gangsters, or the banksters, who created the DEBT SLAVERY BACKED BY WARS BASED ON DECEIT system deliberately, then one should follow through, after that recognition, towards at least two different, deeper levels. First, it is not a "dumb system," rather it is a system based upon the triumphs of organized crime. Those systems, based on the long history of triumphant organized crime, have developed excessive successes (because most of the public and politicians have been selected to become "dumb" inside of the context of adapting to their world being actually controlled by long established systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, as the existing systems of MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS.) Therefore, the first level of deeper analysis is to recognize how and why the DEBT SLAVERY has necessarily driven the creation of numbers which have become DEBT INSANITIES. In order words, since civilization has been controlled by organized crime, in ways which have become excessively successful, the established systems have become runaway criminal insanities.
However, the second, still deeper level, of analysis is to look at the deeper reasons for how and why civilization is actually controlled by the principles and methods of organized crime, which have manifested through private property being claims backed by coercions, or through money being measurement backed by murder, because the debt controls were backed by the death controls. From that perspective, we do NOT have a "dumb system." Rather we have a system based upon organized crime, whose excessive successfulness has resulted in that system become criminally insane MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS, which more and more suffers from its inherent contradictions, that being able to back up frauds with force never stops those frauds from still be false, and therefore, the apparent social successfulness of that degree of a "dumb system" drives society as a whole to become increasingly psychotic, in the sense that the FRAUDS continue to be ENFORCED, but never stop still being basically false, and therefore, the society as a whole becomes terminally sick and insane, due to the degree to which is is controlled by Huge Lies, backed by Lots of Violence, whereby every increment of short-term and medium term ability to continue to double down on ENFORCING FRAUDS means that civilization actually becomes more psychotically out of touch with relatively objective physical realities, due to the dominance of political perceptions based upon believing in bullshit, and wanting to continue to believe in that bullshit.
Of course, it is correct to assert that: "IT'S A BIG PONZI SCHEME..." However, I would expect that the debt will continue to be monetized, as the vicious spirals of the MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS endeavour to go on doubling down, until that is no longer possible, at which point the diminishing returns from being able to continue to make "money" out of nothing to "pay" for strip-mining the planet at an exponential rate must finally result in situations whereby those will collapse the system entirely.
HOWEVER, at that point I challenge the notion that it will be possible to "install something new." The only things which are "new" are due to the progress in physical science. In that context, there is no doubt that "humans have worked in technological fields and advanced human society by leaps and bounds while public governance hasn't advanced." Or, as I express that, progress in physical science has not been surpassed by progress in political science, because progress in political science would have to surpass the paradigm shifts that have already occurred in physical science.
Human beings and civilizations necessarily exist as entropic pumps of energy flows, while the history of successful warfare based on backing up deceits with destruction, morphing to become successful finance based on enforcing frauds, has resulted in the political perceptions of that becoming as backwards as possible, with the most abstract way that developed being that the entropy equations of thermodynamics and information theory had an arbitrary minus sign inserted into them, in order to reverse the apparent meaning of entropy, so that reversed meaning would be consistent with presenting the biggest bullies' bullshit world view, that their relative degrees of organized crime had relative positive values, rather than were relative negative values.
The sources of that go back to human beings living by killing and eating other organisms. That was always the manifestation of human beings acting as entropic pumps of energy flows. The source of the misunderstandings were to regard killing and eating other living beings as being absolutely positive events, rather than as relatively negative events. Human beings always lived through systems of organized lies operating robberies. A long time ago, those human beings were not as skillful and successful at lying to themselves about that. (Animism, and other earlier forms of spirituality and mysticism, enabled people living less aliened from nature to have more ecological wisdom, selected by their longer term survival within the ecosystems that surrounded them.) However, the development of Neolithic Civilization was the development of kinds of totalitarian agriculture, with human slavery being the core of that social pyramid system. Those systems have developed at an exponential rate, due to progress in physical science, without any similar progress being allowed in political science, because such progress in political science would require radical transformations in the ways that politics was perceived, which would contradict the ways that the slave masters wanted to be promoted.
Of course, changing the ways that we perceived political problems would not initially change those problems. However, eventually, that could result in us changing the ways that we responded to those problems. I return to my two points of deeper analysis above: FIRST, the real world is controlled by the methods of organized crime, and SECOND, the real world must necessarily be controlled by the methods of organized crime. The established systems of MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS are not "dumb systems," except when one only looks at the people who are being controlled by those systems of organized crime, namely almost all of the political puppets and the masses of muppets.
The paradoxes that arise when one goes through deeper levels of analysis is that it becomes clearer that the only genuine solutions would have to be better organized crime. In particular, better death controls, to back up better debt controls, in order to operate better integrated money/murder systems, which were better integrated human, industrial and natural ecologies. However, at the present time, almost nobody embraces those paradoxes. Rather, we are living inside of a Bizarro Mirror World, or Wonderland Matrix, where everything appears backwards and absurd, because of the ways that governments were always the biggest forms of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals, but thereby get away with almost totally lying about that to everyone, including themselves.
Inside of the mainstream, mass media, perception of our political problems, there is increasingly a struggle to continue to deliberately ignore and misrepresent the ways that the debt slavery systems have generated numbers which are debt insanities. In some of the alternative views, there is some recognition of those social facts, but still only on relatively superficial levels. There is some superficial facing of the FIRST level of deeper analysis, but usually totally without going through the deeper SECOND level of analysis ... and none done of the deeper levels that follow after that!
I REPEAT: the existing systems are based upon organized crime, which have become runaway criminal insanities, due to those becoming excessively successful ENFORCED FRAUDS. The only genuine solutions to those political problems would require better organized crime, because it is not possible for human beings to stop being entropic pumps of energy flows. However, it would be possible to correct the errors that we regard entropy backwards, which follows through to manifest as all of the bogus "solutions" backfiring badly, because those deliberately do not become more realistic, since there is almost nothing but a core of organized crime, surrounded by layers of controlled opposition groups, both of which stay within the same frame of reference by presenting everything backwards, in ways which become increasingly absurd, due to having to more and more deliberately ignore the most important social facts, in ways which also tend to develop attitudes of evil deliberate ignorance towards the basic biological and physical facts.
The comment above, that I am replying to, is currently being twice as much down voted as up voted. I gave it an up-vote because I thought it was superficially correct. However, as one other previous reply stated: "You can't have the benefits and spoils from a forced union unless that union is enforced." The European Union, with the Euro, were a stealthy project carried through by the international banksters, as the pyramidion people in the established pyramid systems, which have been in vicious spirals of feedback in the form of organized lies, operating robberies, concentrating wealth and power at the top of those social pyramid systems, so that, in turn, those systems could continue to control the political puppets, and misinform the masses of muppets, in order to carry through the banksters' agenda, attempting to consolidate globalized systems based upon MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS.
Greece, with relative alacrity, after joining the EU, and adopting the Euro (with the assistance of Goldman Sachs) was able to rapidly go from merely being inside of debt slavery, to developing runaway debt insanities. However, it is still relatively rare for people to think through the deeper levels of analysis regarding how and why that happened, and therefore, very rare for people to propose any genuine solutions to those problems which are consistent with those levels of deeper analysis, because that requires recognizing that not only are the established systems based on triumphant organized crime, but that also the existing systems must be based on organized crime, since the core issues are necessarily the death control systems.
I REPEAT, the established systems are due to excessively successful organized crime, becoming runaway criminal insanities. However, since nothing else exists than the dynamic equilibria between different systems of organized lies operating robberies, the only realistic resolutions of those problems which could actually exist would be by changing those dynamic equilibria. However, since the established systems are almost nothing but organized crime, surrounded by controlled opposition, both of which operate inside of the same frame of reference, based on the maximum possible deceits and frauds being presented as relatively positive things, rather than as relatively negative things, we continue to see bogus "solutions" which are backwards and absurd being promoted, which continue to backfire badly.
The INTENSE PARADOXES with respect to progress in physical science without surpassing progress in political science are due to the intense paradoxes inherent to the current forms of "political science" being subsets of warfare, whose successes continue to be based upon deceits and treacheries. Within that context, all of the publicly significant schools of economics present everything in as backwards, and therefore absurd, ways possible. Since human beings and civilizations operate as entropic pumps of energy flows, but the biggest bullies' bullshit world view has dominated everything, so much, for so long, so that almost everyone continues to take for granted their misunderstanding the concept of entropy in the most backwards and absurd ways possible (which had historical sources that have been flowing through and through history, long before the sciences of thermodynamics and information theory were developed), we are living inside of an oxymoronic scientific dictatorship, that is not scientific about itself, but only more scientific about applying technologies to enable it to become better at backing up lies with violence.
It is currently too politically impossible to reconcile the entrenched MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS with the general energy systems that are used to understand industrial and natural systems, because doing so takes facing the facts that civilization both does and must operate according to the principles and methods of organized crime, which developed due to the most important events being the human murder systems, whose supreme ideology was militarism, inside of which economics developed. The production of destruction always controlled production. However, all of that is as deliberately denied and ignored as much as possible, by all of the publicly significant schools of economics. Instead, a ridiculously false view of "production" and the "growth of production" is promoted, which deliberately ignores how "money" is being made out of nothing as debts, in order to "pay" for strip-mining the planet's natural resources, while simultaneously that fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems is able to discount and disregard, as much as possible, the accompanying increase in garbage and pollution.
The ways that civilization is controlled by MAD ENFORCED FRAUDS are due to civilization operating according to the principles and methods of organized crime, whose excessive successes have resulted in their being almost nothing but controlled opposition groups that surround that core of organized crime, while none of those are able and willing to go through the kinds of paradigm shifts that it would take to better understand what their problems actually are, especially since doing so is in head-on collisions with all the most fortified social taboo topics. Of course, inside that context, the banksters' "Europe" is attempting to crush Greece. However, those who only superficially recognize those facts then can still promote bogus "solutions," which get away with deliberately ignoring how and why civilization actually developed on the basis of larger and larger scale organized crime, which has been amplified to astronomical sizes by progress in physical science ... The human species can not survive those contradictions without going through series of intellectual scientific revolutions, that would apply to political science, and therefore, apply to the combined money/murder systems.
All of the other various dualities, e.g., centralization versus decentralization, or globalism versus localism, and so on and so forth, are useless and misleading if those continue to be presented as dualities, expressed through impossible ideals, rather than expressed as working through unitary mechanisms. There is only one energy, and therefore, there is only one political system, which is organized crime. There are no genuine solutions which could exist otherwise than as better organized crime. That would be possible if enough people understood that, in order to enable there to be better dynamic equilibria between the different systems of organized lies. The only connection between human laws and natural laws is the ability to back up lies with violence. Human beings necessarily live that way. Meanwhile, the biggest bullies have been able to promote their bullshit that somehow legalizing lies, and enforcing those with legalized violence, stops those from still basically being lies and violence. In those ways, the biggest and best organized gangs of criminals, i.e., governments, and the banksters, et alia, were able to promote the false fundamental dichotomies between them versus other organized crime gangs. That was always a profoundly unscientific view, while any "solutions" which would stop that from happening were also always profoundly unscientific views.
The problems that Europe, and the rest of the world, have are the excessive successes of the biggest and best organized gangs of criminals being able to control their opposition so much, for so long, that the vast majority of people do not understand that, and do not want to understand that. Therefore, the political puppets of the best organized gangs of criminals, the banksters, continue to be elected by enough of the muppets, so that the MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS continue. However, at the same time, there is almost no publicly significant real opposition, and even less general public understanding, which faces the deeper levels of the reasons how and why human beings and civilizations actually operate as general energy systems, and must necessarily continue to do so, as long as they continue to be able to survive.
Philosophically speaking, the vast majority of human beings misunderstand entropy in absurdly backwards ways, which is expressed in the ways that they misunderstand economics in absurdly backwards ways, which is due to the history of successful warfare being based upon deceits and treacheries, which has become excessively successful in the from of fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, based upon MADLY ENFORCING FRAUDS, in ways that almost everyone either takes for granted, and/or deliberately ignores. In the context of the comment above, by BrosephStiglitz, it is CORRECT to state that: "humans have worked in technological fields and advanced human society by leaps and bounds while public governance hasn't advanced." HOWEVER, THE DEEPER REASONS FOR THAT ARE THAT "GOVERNANCE" IS NECESSARILY BASED UPON THE PRINCIPLES AND METHODS OF ORGANIZED CRIME, WITH THE HUMAN MURDER SYSTEMS AS THE MOST EXTREME FORM OF THE DEATH CONTROL SYSTEMS.
When one becomes more deeply scientific about human beings and civilizations, one recognizes that it is a FALSE FUNDAMENTAL DICHOTOMY to perceive "government versus organized crime." Rather, "government" must be the biggest form of organized crime, which is controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals, which are currently the biggest banks, and the big corporations that have grown up around those banks controlling the public "money" supply, by being able to make that "money" out of nothing as debts, while governments enforced those frauds. However, any possible alternative monetary systems which could actually exist must still be based upon the ways that money is measurement backed by murder.
Everywhere in the world, the established systems of debt slavery are turning into debt insanity (with the underlying issues being how much natural resources are left to continue to be strip-mined, in order to keep those debt engine treadmills of MADLY ENFORCED FRAUDS going, and growing, rather than stop growing, which will cause them to collapse into crazy chaos, because nothing in previous human history has adapted to that happening in any overall and systematic ways.) By definition, what will stop endless exponential growth must be some form of death controls. At the present time, that is set up to happen through debt insanities provoking death insanities. Inside of that context, there are no other better resolutions of the real problems than to develop better death control systems. However, since the existing systems are based on the maximum possible deceits about themselves, and that deceitful frame of reference is shared and also upheld by the controlled opposition groups, that surround the core of the organized crime gangs actually operating the existing systems, there are no good reasons to doubt that we are necessarily headed towards the runway debt insanities provoking runaway death insanities.
One of the many manifestations of that will surely be that the bankster controlled "Europe" will continue to try to crush Greek resistance to their drowning in their debt insanity situations. Greeks are starting to recognize the degree to which the Euro denominated debts are mostly odious debts, due to the degree that those Euros were made ex nihilo, and that subsequent doses of more of that money made out of nothing as debts has mostly been recycled back to the big banks, that originally had the legal privilege of being able to make those Euros, as the public "money" supply, out of nothing as debts. (As numerous articles on Zero Hedge have been explaining.)
At the present time, the banksters' previous systems of paper frauds, backed by the force of gunpowder, have become globalized electronic monkey money frauds, backed by the force of apes with atomic bombs. Meanwhile, that same development of globalized electronic communications is enabling us to collectively discuss the repercussions of the events in Greece, as one of the leading edges where debt slavery has become debt insanity, to such a drastic degree that Greeks are being forced to face those social facts, at least to some extent ...
another repetitive purge... musta been saving it up. brevity man, brevity.
Vote 'OXI' for humanity
Oh and "Fuck the EU"
Wow, I never considered that Nuland might be Greek. Now I'm getting confused. Speaking of confusion, Greece is the Trojan Horse. They will force the Empire to deal their mightiest blow, show their hand, expose the depth of their dedication to tyranny for all the world to see, and then humanity will come to the rescue. Yes, I mean the BRICS and friends. Third world nations understand austerity; just ask John Perkins.
Certainly, there must be a crushing example of how dangerous and how much pain comes out from going off-the-grid.
Be sure to look for fireworks going off courtesy of the IMF/EU/etc. You know they'll be doing everything they can to make sure Greece is a royal clusterfuck. They'll do their best to erect a monetary "hot gate" for Greece.
One way Greece can stop it, is to jail, try, and execute the banksters and politicians (international too, if they can get their hands on them).
Make a Legarde leather skin rug and maybe a few dozen lamp shades.
It's not just Europe who can't 'afford' anything positive. Succesfull Greece could mean the beginning of something beautiful for the whole world, and TPTB won't allow it
Oh look... Unicorns that fart rainbows
Please show me when Greece was prosperous and successful.
Once of the great things about reading "Atlas Shrugged" is that it is timeless. Mexico 90 years ago is the same Mexico we have today.
Greece 50 years ago is the Greece we have today.
flaco
I believe if you will unbiasedly expand your reading,
you will discover that "Atalas Shrugged" is not the "timeless" bible you think it is,
nor is Greece the same as 50 years ago,
nor Mexico the same as 90 years ago.
Did I say it was prosperous? If they will manage to rebound after telling EU to fuck off, that would be a sucess. You should stop reading old fantasy novels and get back to the real world where none of us is really prosperous and successful unless we actually do someting about that
Well that sure is a possibility !!!! ... and assuredly something for the 'Elites' to be deathly afraid of. Who is this Martin Braun guy ????? He just dropped a big one.
Then ... two Icelandic economic paradigms on the same planet. Obviously this planet is not big enough for that, let alone 9 Billion people. ;-)
Dare me ... if you dare, Greece should say.
Not so much who is Martin Braun, more how on earth did the PTB in the NYT allow it to be published?
The problem is that although
>>>
Greece leaves the euro and returns to the drachma
<<<
_may_ cure some problems of a purely economic nature,
whether or not Greeks can establish a
>>>
...functional government that collects taxes...
<<<
has nothing to do using/not using the euro, and everything to do with the attitude of Greeks to their own State.
Watson
All the more reason for Greece to leave now ASAP..
the real problem is DEBT
creditors do not want to restructure
so the greeks have to show middle finger, balance their budget and defend their property from creditors
so the majority of greeks need to wake up and think differently. ha, not happening. people generally don't change. still trying to get my wife to understand...
and that is why people drink themselves to an early death. change is a false hope cause it aint happenin.
goode gum drops for all
if greece gives them the middle finger, which i really hope they will, watch false flags & a civil war happen pretty quickly... the zionists become totally ruthless when they are cornered & know no bounds on death destruction or savagery... WW1 & WW2, Palestine, 911 all being good examples of their standard MO. for further reading see the protocols of zion
One way or another greece must stand up & we must all stand up with her
Pensioners, government bureaucrats, and hair dressers who retired at 50 from their "hazardous" jobs are going to start a civil war? Really?
What might they actually do in this civil war? Write letters and memos? Send nasty emails? Just don't see a lot of potential for violence from these groups.
If Larry 'Pull It' Silverstein leases any office buildings in Greece Id steer well clear of said buidlings.
And a successful Socialist, Communist, or Fascist state would prove the validity of those models also.
Any model though, that takes from the productive and gives to the ruling class soon runs out of productive assets and productive people.
So, like every other concern that consumes more than is produces, it will go bust.
What a laugher. Krugman is only raising the possibility of a "recovery" because once divorced from the euro, Greece can pump an ever-increasing number of ever-more-worthless drachmas into its economy - or what passes for one - and prosperity per the Krugman Doctrine of Infinite QE is assured.
I don't think that's it really. More a case of Greece escaping creditors who are trying to enforce a perpetuity on public sector debt at a time when Greece cannot devalue their debt.
In short, if Greece escaped the Eurozone, and managed to stay sane politically (which is a big "if" given vested interests, see: probably turned into a failed state by their neighbors/external creditors out of spite) they would see real economic growth in the short-run. They could (and would) declare most debts to be illegal, probably take ownership of local productive assets and so on. They'd see real growth.
What is being done to the Greek people is quite inhumane right now and it's all to maintain external power and wealth.
This is an answer to HTZMR that slipped into the wrong place: Let us assume a family in Berlin led an excessive life on transfer payments and consumer credits. Grandma's savings have been exhausted. The family members did not work in the last 10 years and suddenly everything comes to a halt because there are no more consumer credits available and the transfer payments stop (this is unfortunately not realistic in Berlin). Then comes the cruel moment of awakening, the moment that you describe above. But there is not much chance. The family is forced to start from the very beginning. And after adaption and lots of efforts the family's situation is going to improve. Do you you really believe that Greece will ever get out of the pit unless the assume responsibility for their own fate? How should they ever get rid of their debt? Only by full default! And with an own currency they could determine the price for their products and services on the market.
I dont think any euro area taxpayers are still living in some illusion about this. The debt that Greece owes will simply be transferred back proportionately to the various states, whose debt ratios will jump, erasing any minimal progress made in stabilizing them. The best thing for both sides is a divorce. But as i said in another comment, Greece is not Iceland, its Argentina. Even when the country stabilizes, its institutions are weak, its morale as debtors is apparently non existent, and it cannot be trusted to ever enact reforms or reduce the size of its bureacracy. Left to itself, it has even less of a chance to modernize itself. Bond markets wont touch it. I see only black for the country, so best that Europe cuts the cords and focuses on improving the lives for the remaining citizens - it already has enough work to do on that front.
I have news for you. The Greek people were never "lent" anything. The creation of digital currency out of thin air by a bunch of criminals can in no way be described as "lending". It is fraud, pure and simple. Counterfeiting by any other name. It is not incumbent on anyone to pay back that which was never "lent". If you promote the propaganda that the Greeks should pay back "what they owe" then you are part of the problem. Expose the fraud that is Fractional Reserve Banking for what it is.
+1 for nailing it. Standing 0 for doing the nailing in one short paragraph.
geez..ya think? are all of them hung over from Dom P.? oh..BTW (iceland did it already)
THere is absolutely no problem with debt....on condition
1. that the 'money was not created from fvck all.
2. that the borrower consents to it.
Refusing to pay is not a default if the 'money' was created from nothing ...... just a book entry.
...and even if it was good money, under contract, there has to be consent. Greek people did not consent.
Simply put, those running the EU are evil. They do not care what is good for people and countries. They do not care who they hurt. All they care about is power and making others subservient to it. That is a definition of evil.
The EU is a corporate takeover of an continent. Look here how much the EU is in the pockets of big businesses and banks: http://corporateeurope.org/
The EU is designed to collapse Europe into the global bankster system (run by the same evil douchebags) .
The FedRes is in charge of doing it to the US.
The BRICS will lead their respective countries into the evil bankster led cabal system.
They are all working together toward the same end. Central banks are used to control every country. Who controls the central banks?
It falls to the media, culture and education system to make us think the Big Show is an organic "us vs them" evolution and instead of what it is - multi-generational, central planning by evil pig men.
Someone must has forgotten to tell the corporations.
Nah, all they care about is keeping the system running.
They (the ECB/EU) don't give a toss about Greece or any other over-spending government. That's the beauty of the EURO, its the first currency to break it's link to a nation state (and to gold) so it can't be hyperinflated out of existance by a country's government/printer.
A lot of things dropped into place for me when I read FOFOA's subliminal piece back in 2011 called "EURO GOLD"
Cheers!
Greece is a failed state. It cannot implement reforms, chang institutions, collect taxes, ithose structures have collapsed. Once out of the euro zone, the real misery ensues when they find out that they are far poorer than they ever realized. Before they had it very tough and their pride was damaged, soon they will be wishing for those days to return. Once out, there will be no one to help them and entirely reliant on temselves. Their worst excesses will finally know no boundaries. Good luck at getting anyone to pay taxes at this point. A Golden Dawn led government is a real possibility at this point.
Greece can't expect the rest of the EU to continue to subsidize a hugely bloated government payroll and retirement at 50 for "hazardous" jobs like hair dressing. Was a great party, but as Maggie Thatcher said "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Greece has run out of other people's money.
Exactly. Greece is downright INCENSED that somebody actually expects them to pay back the money that they borrowed.
the Hog, thinks the ave greek had anything to do with this, very superficial insight..the banksters told the pols how to lie and get EU money, which for the most part went into bankster pockets in the form of interest. of course kickbacks and bribes greeced (lol) the way..much like any western citizen has 0 input into the debt taken on by the .gov bank complex. idiots like you are a danger to us all, as you support the lies of banksters and corrupt pols.
I am not defending the Greeks, but the Thatcher quote is just con-bot silly talk from another era. If the money is simply "created as debt" what "other person" does it belong to?
Almost all EU countries and the US have either hit the wall or are very close to it in terms of their ability to repay or even pay down debt.
The question is why did they pick Greece to make an example of? Why are the IMF willing to break all their own rules and lend to Ukraine, which has even less ability to repay?
The TROIKA wants to wipe out Greece so it can buy it up pennies on the dollar. It does not want to help Greece. It wants to help itself to Greece. Greece needs to get out fast, get help from countries that actually want to help it and get a new beginning. This is why the BRICS and 120 associates are working so hard to have an alternative to the IMF, world Bank, Dollar and why Syria, Iran, and the BRICS are fighting to keep them and Wests predater banks out of their countries. I really hope some reasonable country can help the Gerrks get past this great difficulty, get free and get a new beginning
You gonna loan Greece some money?
Really?
Interesting. Tell us more.
Pro Tip: No one wants Greece. Zero natural resources, a population composed of "The Free Shit Army", no recent history of prosperity, an entitled/obstinate workforce etc. etc.
Just like in the USA, no one wants Detroit... which is literally on sale for "pennies on the dollar"
if by september nothing new is out, i will go back in my sheep life.
otherwise if the grexit is official, i give world 5 years to make a bug out bag and run in the green.
edit.
Will France even want a too strong Euro in the near future?
Basically the euro is a gold mine for Germany only. The euro is anti-competitive, it handicaps the weak, and gives a choke hold to the wealthy. They get their transfer bribes whilst Germany and the like benefit twice as much.
How many economies in the euro are now struggling, and wish they had their own currencies?
Greece will never recover unless and until it returns to a drachmae, defaults or heavily hair cuts its creditors.
Yup.
The Euro does not "handicap the weak". It rewards the thrifty and crucifies the profligate spenders.
Germany, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Slovakia, Austria, etc. are countries that exemplify the Euro.
Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece = Profligate spenders who have a 100 year+ history of racking up debt, devaluing, and starting it all over.
Fuck the EU! And the US govt for that matter.
Notice how the US govt is awfully quiet as its "ally" across the Atlantic fights an existential threat from within.
US govt is more concerned with driving wedges between Russia and Europe, "isolating" China and Russia, and weakening Europe. And of course, supporting terrorism in the Middle East.
Washington and Brussels are the greatest traitors and threats to most Europeans and Americans.
People seem to confuse Greece with Iceland. The former is really not some subjugated group of John Galts that want to be in control of their freedom and destiny, and would thrive in a Greece ourside the euro area. They are anything but - ridiculous to consider them a developed economy, they are nothing of the sort. Up until 2010 they lived off the benefits of the euro area borrowing like drunken sailors to prop up an unproductive workforce that got benefits if they showed up on time to work (!) a military that was the second biggest in Europe per capita, and a bureacracy that was an order of magnitude larger than it should have been. Would have fit perfectly as a communist country in the Warsaw Pact. Iceland is however a civilised state with a functioning government and a population of a half million that was willing to do what it takes to get through a dark time. Greece is not. Fortunately it seems markets no longer put the rest of the PIGS in the same boat.
I agree 100% with your comment... except for your characterization of Iceland as a bastian of Libertarians.
Iceland is not a country to put on a mantle. Iceland survived because it "Cyprus'd" everyone's money before it fled the country.
Iceland was a profligate spender, massive socialist cesspool, etc. that is the furthest thing from a Capitalists dreamland.
Say what you want about the USA... The USA never enacted capital controls during the financial crisis.
Varoufakis is a buzz cut clone of Leonard Nimoy/Spock.
He is doing amazingly, IMO, on Bloomberg right now.
More like Europe needs something positive to come from Greece so that others may follow and get out of the current EU quagmire.
Anything's possible I guess. Perhaps this is just a clever ploy by the commie-Syriza to take the country out of the EZ&EU while milking every last bit of free munny and then establish a communist utopia.
Unlike the EU commies and the Russian Commies and every other friggin commie except for where?
I find these article comical.
Greece has been broken for centuries. This is not a new thing.
How many defaults and devaluations before the Euro?
Let's be realisitic, Greece is Greece. Just like Mexico is Mexico. Argentina? The cycle continues to repeat because the PEOPLE never change... The only way to "change" Greece is to dillute the Greek population with a more productive people (Germans? Dutch?)
Help! I'm not exactly getting it here....everyone is feeling all bad for Greece....but didn't these fuckers bring this upon themselves by demanding little work for huge pensions and social benefits? Why in the fuck should anyone be bailing their asses out.....no different than where we're heading....we're nothing but a bunch of paper printing broke ass motherfuckers. I'm going to do my part in solidarity with Greece today by ordering a Gyro and a Greek Salad for lunch....other than that....didin't these nimrods bring this on themselves.....with a little nudging from a few banksters....their "crack" dealers.?
I don't understand it either.
You have a dead beat nation that is/was one of the largest socialist cesspools. Anti-Capitalism. Anti-Reform. Anti-Business. Anti-Everything.
I agree that this situation is a little tainted because of EU (Big Govt) and Banksters.
In the end, I put dead beats on the level of the lowest form of scum. Especially dead beats who then want concessions.
CUNTS like YOU pushing your BOSS's AGENDA DO UNDERSTAND PERFECTLY WELL. When YOUR BOSS's are HANGING BY THE NECK you'll jump ship with the other SLIME.
Boss's Agenda?
Nigga please.
You confuse me for someone who works... Wealthy and semi-retired is more accurate.
Who shoulders the most blame?
The Dealer or The Junkie?
A Dealer will give you product, on the house, knowing you'll get hooked. The Junkie will gladly take it for an escape. Once hooked, it's down the tubes, with the Junkie spending most of his time doing and stealing who and what he can to feed the habit.
I think it's Human to take the easy road. Free shit is free shit. I would love to take some time off, and not have to deal with the nimrods daily to put a roof over my head and bread on the table. And that goes for the dingbat with great tits I married 32 years ago today. Riding my ass, daily, for not having what everyone else has. And I'm sitting here looking at 3 1/2 acres of green grass and a sparkling pool. Oops, off topic......
I've been thinking.... There must be an asteroid heading for the planet that only 4 or 5 world leaders know about....or some such shit. It's the only thing that logically explains the insanely dumb ass dumbassery that I witness day to day. And am told it is normal.
I vote for a global debt jubilee. Just hit the reset button.
But if I where King of the world, the ONE thing I would implement.....
Some sort of permitting procedure to breed. Religion and social construct as worked to keep our species somewhat in check...up to now. The single biggest problem I see with the world today, is unchecked breeding by the least able to sustain. Mike Judge is Nostrodamis. Idiocracy is a documentary.
Here's a hint, you're ALWAYS responsible for what YOU do.
bushhog, you ever been in a riot? the you , you think you know..can be controlled to act in ways that are counter to your moral basis.
They were under somebodies influence when they took the money, agreed to the terms, and spent it on doubling wages for public employees? Now they've 'come to their senses' just in time to not pay the money back? LOL
I wonder what they'll be saying about the US, when it's the US turn to go down? Citizens of who stood idly by while their government racked up over 100T of unfunded liabilities and wasted billions a year on useless programs that gained the people nothing. Greece is just a portent of what is to come in the US.
And they'd be right.
In a debt based "money" system there is no choice. The debt MUST grow or the system will collapse.
db51, you are actually getting it perfectly. Its some of the people here who are just blinded by their hatred of the banksters. Greece was broke BEFORE they entered the EU, and they lied about it to get in. When they got in they used the cheap credit rate to double the wages of public employees. They are lazy socialist scum who think money and wealth come from 'rich guys' and government printing presses.
huge pensions?
Most people in Greece are near the povert line.
bring it on themselves? Ask Goldman Sachs/Troika why they had to get Greece into the system on the back of fabiraction, and then training journalists how to lie to the Greek public, so they willingly cut their necks.
Oh please. They got to the reduced pension levels because of the troika.
Before the troika, government employees (a privileged class) retired at 56 with full pension (1200 Euros per month).
You can live real good in Greece on 1200 Euros.
Troika came in and knocked this down to 600 to 800 BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WAS UNSUSTAINABLE (see: Debt to GDP of 175%)
Who knows how much of this is games, charades or the real deal.
Some stories have it that the Troika want Greece to default, and have been playing the game that way. I don't buy it myself, the variables are too many and too dangerous and uncontrolable.
How many defaults Germany?
Is an interesting question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default
As you see it's a hobby for greeks to borrow from others and default on the debt.
What on earth is a: "rent return home"?
people who... can't pay rent return home. It makes sense. Unless Mom and Dad charge the same price. Ouch.
So the author is returning to improve his English. Thank you
The entire EU can dissolve back into sovereign nation-states, but it won't have the long term impact on the currency eveyone fears. The politics of the EU is a sideshow. The depth and backing of the currency is the real story.
.
.
Krugman is the biggest idiot
(after the ZH-posting Occupoopers)
comparing loser-college-kids moving back in their parents' homes
with
(not that I suspect it will happen in our lifetine)
an economically and politically successful Greece.
Actions have consequence, especially for the victims. After finding one's self in the same fucked up place time after time, it might be worthwhile to investigate if it is one's own actions that are precipitating it. Or maybe its just everyone else.
There clearly are benefits to remaining single, especially if you are a COUNTRY - Fuck the EU...
We Don't have any Money, but we can pay you in....
Memo to Greece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5NBja6NLTg
True evil is embodied in those who will deliberately work to "get ahead". I mean really, is anything more evil than someone willing to actually work, or worse still, SAVE, to just have more? It is obvious to me that the just and enlightened are those who do nothing or a close to nothing to get by, and those who would actually live off of the labor of others are truly blessed.
Austerity is at the heart of evil. To suggest that others should live on less simply because less is all they can afford is just wrong. Modern progressive people are entitled to happiness and to tell them they should live within their means is just mean.
To seek prosperity while demanding others to live within their means is evil. Blessed are the bankers and politicians who who enable us to live without consequence to ourselves and only to others.
Europe's history in cases of rebellion is clear: Rome's answer will rhyme with todays EU policy..
how many thousands will be crucified on the cross of the euro? lining the way from athens to brussels??
"Six thousand survivors of the revolt captured by the legions of Crassus were crucified, lining the Appian Way from Rome to Capua.[45]"
I seen this a few days ago and wrote: Everyone is talking about how small Greece is and how little their GDP is on the overall global market however what they are overlooking in my opinion is, if Greece pulls this off, it will serve as incentive for others to follow. This means, the IMF will have to make an example of Greece using strong-arm tactics that will add fuel to the fire. Either way, I see a no win situation especially for us little people.
Great post, ZH.
In response to your query “Is This Why ‘Europe’ Is Now Trying to Crush Greece?”, I would simply respond “Why should Greece be any different?” The cultural-Marxists at the EU are trying to destroy all the independent nations of Europe.
To my European brothers, please pardon an American of European descent that is admittedly oversimplifying the situation to illustrate a point.
The problem with the EU is that there are cultural differences between the nations that compose it which I will broadly lump into two categories: Northern (Germanic Europe), and Southern (Latin and Romantic Europe) Europe. Sorry, not trying to ignore the Slavic and other peoples, as they too have important cultural differences that need to be considered as well. However, the differences between all of these European groups pale in comparison to the differences between European's and non-Europeans - which is why immigration must be controlled to protect Europe.
As an aside, I think this is a point that it is important for all Europeans to remember - our very existence as a people is at stake – wherever we reside on the planet earth. We have a lot to lose that we often take for granted in the midst of our petty squabbles with each other. Compared to the genocide that we face at the hands of the cabal, whether or not Greece stays in the EU is a petty squabble.
These two broad groups of European cultures (Northern and Southern) operate at different "speeds" - which is why the term "two-speed Europe" was batted around quite a bit during the discussions that preceded the formation of the EU – Europeans were aware of this issue long ago. Again, over-simplistically, Northern Europeans know how to work, and Southern Europeans know how to live. Northern Europe values productivity and discipline (and has the money and stress to go with it) Southern Europe values free living and beauty (and has the poverty and joy to go with it). I am sorry if I offended any of my European brothers by this observation and stereotyping, but I think that there is some truth to it. In even more simplistic terms, “there is no free lunch”. Each group brings important qualities to the beauty of Europe. Europe would be diminished if either philosophy of life were to disappear.
As an American of European descent, that admittedly has the luxury of evaluating the situation from afar, I think all of the nations of Europe need to maintain their independence to protect their cultures. Europe is a beautiful tapestry that is on its way to being destroyed by a cultural-Marxist EU, lead by the cabal. I witness the cabal's destructive influence on America every day, and I don't want that for Europe. Members of the cabal are not Europeans. Their 2000+ year history with us demonstrates that they only claim to be Europeans when it suits their purposes.
Europeans need to rekindle their national pride and roots, identify their true enemies, and treat Europe as a family of distinct national identities and cultures that must collectively band together (on SOME levels, not ALL levels) to protect themselves from destruction by non-Europeans.
Greece is an example of the futility of the cultural-Marxist approach being imposed by a dysfunctional EU that is hell bent on destroying the European peoples and their distinct beautiful cultures. Unfortunately, Greece also illustrates the destructive effects of the unbridled non-European immigration promoted by the EU – which has compounded the problems that it faces.
I just had a vision of the future where all of Europe eventually adopts the drachma.
Come on everybody, time to wake up. Either way Greece is faced with a perilous and difficult future regardless of which way it votes.
The rest of the world had better attend to fire walling their own economies lest the contagion spreads to them and reveals their own internal rot.
It is FAR too late for that, the agreement putting the BIS in Basel and the ECC in charge puts all of our economies together. Why do you think all of the QE and money printing all around the world hasn't caused hyperinflation as has been predicted? You see, all of the eggs are in the same basket now--the countries must support each other, or everything comes tumbling to the ground. What they haven't planned for is an outside entity changning the rules of the game....
Fuck NATO & IMF.
Don't blame me, I went to a Yanni concert a while back. What other exports do they have?
France, Italy and Spain have the "too big to fail" status the bankers covet.
Unconditional bailouts all round with bonuses.
While I most certainly concur with your conclusions, I have to respectfully take issue with your (new nixy) statement that the money is created out of nothing. The actual funds/credit originates as a direct conversion of the nominal debtor's otherwise gratuitous undertaking of indebtedness, and normally secured by the assets being acquired with the funds so created.
It starts with an analysis of language. The other day I responded to a comment on a different site where a commentator's stated views on the subject were, to my mind, hopelessly frustrated with the interchangeable use and cross-use of the terms "lender and creditor" and "loan and advance". Copied below is my response, which I think addresses several of the same issues as the general erroneous assumption that bank credit is created out of thin air as opposed to a conversion of someone else's equity.
______________
With much respect, while I very much agree with your general position, I find it cognitively difficult to follow due to the technically inaccurate use of the terms "Loan" and "Lender" throughout.
The IMF is not an equity-investment-lender. The IMF is legal-debt/credit-liability-kiter or creditor. The IMF advances credit. The IMF does not make loans.
Lender versus creditor; loan versus advance
"Lenders" make "loans", which are paid for by:
1. pre-existing money already earned and possessed by the lender,
2. assumption of risk of default, and
3. administrative overhead.
"Creditors" advance "credit", which is paid for by:
1. assumption of risk of default, and
2. administrative overhead.
It costs at least a billion dollars to loan a billion dollars, and the lender walks away from the transaction a billion dollars poorer in terms of immediate purchasing power because now the borrower has it, and the lender does not.
It costs at least nothing to advance a billion dollars of credit, and the creditor walks away from the transaction a billion dollars richer than the instant before because now they own the debtor’s security, and the debtor owes them a billion dollars that the creditor did not even possess the instant before.
A billion dollar loan instantly costs a lender a billion dollars.
A billion dollar advance instantly gains a creditor a billion dollars.
Yet not one man or woman in 10,000 even knows that there is a difference. Legal documents, securities, mortgages, credit-card contracts, newspapers, tv and radio media, court judgements, all of it - all use the words lender and creditor; loan and advance, interchangeably for what is arguably the single greatest distinction to be made on Earth. I had done so myself for years without realising it (and inadvertently still do – it takes persistent mental discipline to avoid it).
“Mr. Banker, that $1 billion transaction you just completed – did it cost you $1 billion? Or did it gain you $1 billion?”
Mr. Banker: “Cost, gain; what’s the difference? You just need to get back to work and leave the complicated philosophical questions to us."
When Greece issues a billion euros of new sovereign debt to the IMF (or to the ECB), the IMF is not a "Lender" who has to go out and obtain the billion euros from some third party who already possesses it. The credit itself is supplied by the Greek government and people who otherwise gratuitously underwrite the credit itself.
Assume Greece were to be a rich and powerful nation that wanted to help out a much more impoverished nation of the same EU, by agreeing to assume one billion euros of debt on behalf of the weaker nation. The Greek government assumes the one billion of new liabilities, the European Central Bank credits Greece's one billion euro assumption of debt to the poor nation and the total supply of euros increases by one billion euros.
Clearly Greece is the creditor and the ECB is merely a credit re-insurance middleman that does not contribute any equity to the transaction. The equity is supplied by Greece's underwriting of the debt itself.
Now, how does that situation change merely because the same credit is in fact delivered back to Greece itself instead of our theoretical impoverished nation?
How does the same assumption/underwriting of euro-denominated debt have a billion euros of objective financial value in the first case but not in the second? In the latter case who gets the credit, per se, from the Greek government's assumption of liability for the one billion euros (i.e., the one billion euro credit that goes to the poorer nation in the first case)? Answer: The ECB (or IMF as the case may be).
The ECB experiences an instantaneous net increase or gain of one billion euros in its cash-equivalent-money-assets as and when it receives Greece's unconditional undertaking of the indebtedness under the nominal sovereign bonds that it issues and delivers as nominal "security". And that "somebody else's equity" is the only financial capacity/equity that it (the ECB or IMF) brings to the transaction.
But all of that is cognitively "washed out" in your otherwise admirable analysis by referring to the IMF (or ECB or private bank for that matter) as a "lender" instead of as a "creditor". It doesn't just make a difference, it makes all the difference in the world.
Hope it helps. Tim.