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Troika Says Greek Proposal Not Enough To Meet Targets, Serves As "Basis For Negotiations"
Early on Saturday morning, the Tsipras government passed the Greek bailout proposal which it told the Greek people to reject - which they did - less than a week earlier. The grotesque farce continued until the very end when 15 Syriza lawmakers who voted yes said they nonetheless are against the reform package and expressed their opposition to the government’s proposal in a joint statement issued immediately after the vote in parliament.
Seemingly unclear how this "democracy" thing works in the country that supposedly invented it only to spawn its biggest mutant yet, the "dissenters" added that they voted for the proposal in order not to give an excuse for the undermining of Alexis Tsipras government. What they really meant is what the angry people finally crack down on yet another government, they hope to have a get out of jail card. Literally.
Other were far more vocal in their condemnation of the capitulation: Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis, Deputy Labour Minister Dimitris Stratoulis as well as the speaker of parliament, Zoe Constantopoulou, all called "Present", in effect abstaining from the vote and withholding their support from the government. "The government is being totally blackmailed to acquiesce to something which does not reflect what it represents," Constantopoulou said.
At the end of the vote, the Tsipras government narrowly escaped the loss of a parliamentary majority, as 17 Syriza lawmakers, which holds 149 seats in parliament, abstained, were absent or voted no. Among legislators who were absent were former Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis (who went on holiday earlier to his wife's island vacation house), Speaker of Parliament Zoe Konstantopoulou (who penned the famous Greek "Odius Debt" declaration) and two cabinet ministers.
The ruling coalition's parliamentary majority was saved by the deputies of the right-wing Independent Greeks, who hold 13 seats in parliament. Additionally the three opposition parties handed Tsipras the mandate to negotiate and bring back a debt deal.
In any event, despite winning backing from lawmakers Tsipras now faces rebellion in his own party that could threaten his majority in parliament because while 10 Syriza deputies either abstained or voted against the measures another 7 were not present, leaving Tsipras short of the 151 seats needed for a majority of his own which means the next crisis in Athens will be a parliamentarian.
But while we will cross that bridge eventually, for now the ball is in the Troika's court (and yes, with Greece fully capitulation to the Troika we can now call the creditors by their rightful name: The Troika, which as a reminder, was the only "concession" won by the Tsipras team).
Here reports are conflicting, even if split according to Europe's (and the US) conventional pro and anti-debt reduction axes.
According to Reuters, the Troika told Eurozone governments that proposals from Greece for a bailout loan are a basis for negotiation, an EU official said on Saturday. "The three institutions have made a first joint assessment of the Greek reform proposals submitted Thursday night. Under certain conditions, they jointly see the proposals as a basis for negotiating an ESM program. This assessment was sent to the Eurogroup president last night," the official said.
That recommendation is an important step before the Eurogroup of euro zone finance ministers meets at 1300 GMT in Brussels to decide on Athens' request for help from their European Stability Mechanism bailout fund. Ministers' advisers are due to meet in the Euro Working Group at 0800 GMT.
Of course, nobody doubted that the proposal which falls back to what the Troika itself submitted two weeks ago, would be the "basis" for talks. The question is what the final draft will look like.
And it is here that the Troika will surely make Greek life a living hell as it returns with demands that force the government to shortly vote on a "deal" that has far greater austerity embedded in it.
First, Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung reported that Greece’s international creditors view the country’s reform proposals as insufficient to meet agreed budget surplus targets, citing assessment paper provided to euro-area finance ministers by the Troika. FAS adds that the "new plan insufficient in light of "significant deterioration of macro economic and financial conditions" in Greece. As a reminder, Greece hopes to achieve a 2015 surplus target of 1% in 2015 rising to 3.5% by 2018. This is not going to happen and everyone in Europe knows this.
In fact, Greece will be lucky to be able to ever reopen its banks again.
Europe's hard-line stance was confirmed on several more occasions. First, the Deputy Finance Minister of the Netherlands Eric Wiebes said that "the Greeks have made a step but at the same time we notice that the institutions are critical about the proposal" adding that "we have serious concerns on the power of the Greek government to implement but also the commitment because we're discussing a proposal that looks very much like a proposal that less than a week ago was largely rejected."
The logic continued: "the Greek govt said then it was in Greek interest to reject it. There are large concerns about that and that’s what we will discuss."
This position was echoed by Estonian Finance Minister Sven Sester who said that "Greece faces the hardest work at home because there is still lack of trust that even agreed reforms can be fulfilled eventually."
Considering that as part of its Third bailout proposal, Greece promised the implement reforms pledged in 2010, one can see why Europe is skeptical this isn't just another ploy by the Greeks to have the banks reopened so the depositors can withdraw the remaining money and then pull the plug on Europe once more.
And then, moments ago Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan said the Greece’s bailout request probably needs extra measures and proof that it can be implemented, adding
most importantly that "the Greek paper was silent on banking" which as we noted yesterday will require another €10-20 billion bailout.
But the most interesting narrative is developing within Germany itself where Bild repeated what we said about the view split between Merkel and Schauble, reporting that "a power struggle is brewing between German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble" over how to proceed with Greece. Bild said that it was Merkel who out of consideration for EU partners, especially France, backs new talks with Greece, while Schaeuble regards Greek reform proposals as "inadequate" and opposes further negotiations. Then again this seems to be an exact rehash of what we said yesterday in our commentary to the Varoufakis op-ed so take it with a grain of salt.
But one thing that is certain: according to Dow Jones, as part of its Bailout Number 3, Greece will need €74 billion in fresh funding (i.e. debt), citing the Troika, of which €16 billion would come from the IMF.
Which means that Greek debt, already at 175% of GDP...
... is about to rise above 200%. Which brings to mind a statement by Latvia's outgoing president which we posted last week:
"this [Greek] debt is so big that everyone understands that it won’t be repaid. Loans to Greece have just bought time so that those in power don’t have to take decisions. This is like a game: who can hold out longer by not showing that this money has been lost? This burden has become bigger and there obviously is no possibility to repay. The debt writedown of Greek debt will come after bankruptcy of state."
In other words, all that may happen this weekend, assuming Tsipras can again can pass the revised draft of its debt proposal which will have far more austerity and pension cutting measures in it, is push the date of the Greek default back by a few months, while Greek debt goes from merely unsustainable to utterly ridiculous.
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Now Bend over
The Greek collapse. The (market volatility) gift that keeps on giving.
The Greeks had a chance to wipe the slate clean, reclaim their sovereignty, and start re-building their country the way they want to. Instead, they keep choosing to go even deeper into the rabbit’s asshole.
Oh well… At least, they’ve avoided the no-fly zones, coalitions of the willing against them, bunker-busters, color revolutions, etc. ;-)
Looney
When you run out of money, fail to repay lenders, do not earn enough to support yourself you can expect life to treat you accordingy.
Lending to a debtor that is insolvent is more the fault of the creditor (be it a central bank, individual, commercial bank, or pension fund) not as much the borrower, not to say they don't have any responsibility. This unpayable debt is no asset, blowing a hole in Krugman’s theory that debt doesn’t matter because it is one entities liability and another entities asset, thus net, a zero sum game. Once debts are unpayable yet still made available the borrower is done a disservice because they can maintain the illusion that their lifestyle is sustainable, and the lender is left thinking they will be paid back when the asset is actually worthless. What’s worse is the lenders and borrowers actually don’t have a say in the decision-making process. The lenders are often political or banking representatives for pension funds or citizenry, and the borrowers are almost always political representatives for a bankrupt government putting the nation’s tax base on the hook.
Tsipras has made a fatal mistake. Personally he has pushed all in AND he has showed the Germans his hand and they now know his position. They are going to send him out of the game. DUMB FUCK. When No one has a winning hand SO the last thin you do is go all in and show your cards. He is politcally a dead man walking.
I am trying to understand Tsip, because to this point. I have failed.
However, if you think of him as a Union Boss in negotiations. Union bosses typically care less about the company in which the unionites work. (the company in this case is the country of Greece) The Union Boss really only cares about the union members...which apparently, in this case are the pensioners. He has to try to appear as if he cares about the country/company when he really doesn't.
It's just a hypothesis at this point...but it currently fits.
21
I really have to reiterate what a DUMB FUCK Tsipras is. He had the backing of HIS NATION,the majority of the people. He needed to do two things to bring hope and prosperity back to his nation and people.
1) elimimate most of the debt
2) intitute structural reforms to susstain the groth of his nation, yes pention reform going forward, tax reform, hell, make Greece a tax haven like many small countries have done
The Euro had to make a deal because;
1) although Greece debt is relatively small, the collateral damage via derivatives was something the Euro COULD NOT expose because the repurcussions were a 100X to 1000X times greater.
Tsipras you had them by the balls and now you have no leverage. You are Stupid Fuck and I hope the people who voted you in chop your head off because you deserve it.
Well, this is a hopeful sign..
just as long as they don’t prolong the agony.
agony (n.)
directly from Late Latin agonia, from Greek agonia "a (mental) struggle for victory," originally "a struggle for victory in the games," from agon "assembly for a contest," from agein "to lead"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=agony
The Germans have gone full Zionist - repayment is not enough, full abject surrender and voluntary slavery is needed.
can someone tweet to tzipras to tell him to wear back his nuts and finally ask roubles to vladimir and then say fuck you to eu and go full east.... it kinda hurry...
I really have to reiterate what a DUMB FUCK Tsipras is. He had the backing of HIS NATION,the majority of the people. He needed to do two things to bring hope and prosperity back to his nation and people.
1) elimimate most of the debt
2) intitute structural reforms to susstain the groth of his nation, yes pention reform going forward, tax reform, hell, make Greece a tax haven like many small countries have done
The Euro had to make a deal because;
1) although Greece debt is relatively small, the collateral damage via derivatives was something the Euro COULD NOT expose because the repurcussions were a 100X to 1000X times greater.
Tsipras you had them by the balls and now you have no leverage. You are Stupid Fuck and I hope the people who voted you in chop your head off because you deserve it.
This is incredibly naive. First, I'm not sure how you could claim that he has the backing of his nation, when they all voted to reduce their debt, but stay in the euro. Yeah, I want to eat my cake and have it too, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to work. You have governmental dependents versus any working class private sector person... their positions are mutually exclusive and they're vying for the same slice of pie. The more the pensioners demand, the longer the hangover for their successors.
Second, do you really believe that europeans would take pitchforks and torches in hand if the banks receive bailouts directly, rather than indirectly through greece? While americans may be more docile and ignorant (I doubt it), I simply don't see europeans caring enough to make any meaningful prohibition of this scenario. While it may take an ounce of prevention, or a pound of cure, these guys are making up the rules as they go along... and while we may surmise that the derivative fallout cure is too great, we also don't know what rules will be changed. Haven't there already been more than a few defaults that were declared non-defaults to curb derivative losses?
Third, when western countries haven't implemented any meaningful reform for decades, why do you think greece is up to the task? If countries could initiate their own reforms, then wouldn't we be living in a utopia? It's no different for individual people... only when we're faced with a crisis do we even consider the possibility of changing... and virtually always decide to let the chips fall where they may, as putting forth work and making meaningful change at such a perilous intersection may not succeed. This is the gambit of substance abusers. The only reforms will be dictated externally, and the greeks apparently aren't taking too kindly to that notion any more. Fortunately or unfortunately, the rest of the world gets to make a call about whether to give any more to people who refuse to change.
I can tell you one thing for sure, If the Federal government in America told the banks to close their ATMs there would be riots in the streets. Riots like you have never seen before. There is no way the US government would get away with that. Why don't the Greek people rise up and take over their insane government? Greece has gone submissive!
It's easy to figure out.
TSIPRAS IS LEAVING THE BALL IN THE TROIKA'S COURT SO THEY'LL BE TO BLAME FOR GREECE LEAVING THE EU!
Not true. If that was true, the terms to the Germans would be much more onerous. Tsipras would say take it or leave come Sunday if you don't accept our terms we are printing Drachmas and preparing for an exit. The Germans would accept everything as written eventually.
But the terms are 1) Bad for the Greek people and better for the Germans. 2) Tsipras has made it abudantly clear that Greece is not leaving the Euro, so his leverage is gone. He is a DUMB FUCK
Puppets do not posses leverage. They only operate via the strings of the puppeteer.
If anyone failed, it was likely Soros. (Which I doubt, as we are still mid-game.)
Greece is not leaving the EURO PERIOD
They already have.
Look a the merchants posting prices in Drachma now.
It's all over for Greece in the EU.
Only political butt covering left to play for now on both sides.
I think I'll make more ice...
no they won't.
sorry you wrong.
the game is now who leave or who is kicked.
and it will also take YEARS before status is clear.... greek have serious pb since 2011... we are in 2015... they play tennis to make a net fault to accuse other to have failed.
it will take years.
It's a mexican standoff. No one wins here. They are both posturing and shifting... hoping for some sort of external issue to put them out of their misery (something to blame). Too much history to overcome otherwise. And the people are beginning to polarize (e.g. time is running out). Unfortunately, nothing else is giving way and both parties are beginning to sweat balls.
What the people think does not matter... until they grab pitchforks and rope.
That's exactly what his target is. Protect the pensioners AND the public workers. It's them who voted him and they contribute around 40% of our populition.
They all know that the government debt is unsustainable and a large portion of that debt is pensions, public sector pay, benefits, etc. They also know that if this is impaired, the people will go apeshit.
Good thing here in the USA we don't have such problems with the pensions being fully funded and in safe investments, etc. (wait... oh shit).
This all evolves from TBTF finance. Once accepted, a soveriegn will onboard all debt and enforce the contract through geopolitical means. If the banks were simply let to book losses, the world would be a much better place.
Here's the deal, it happens all the time. The yield on fraud is the best game in town.
How do you steal money from people/countries who don't have any? Simple, you just give it to them via debt. (see: student loans, housing bubble/fraudclosre, GM autos, Greece, etc. etc.)
Then when the problem gets big, just blame them.
Sounds like a flippant remark but it's true. Were there bad actors in the above? Sure. But at the end of the day which side of this deal has all the money? Coincidence how this works out the same way all the time?
Sorry. Can I remind you we live in Krugmanland?
"When _you_ run out of money..." Well that "you" was almost certainly not the Greeks. It was almost certainly "their" bankers who skimmed 90% of the loan money. BUT -- It's the Greek people who must bear the "repayment" burden.
The international bankers do this all the time. Plus they now get "quantitative easing" (welfare for the ultra-rich). Which the lowly tax payers must provide.
"Democracy" is supported by rich people's political scientologists. Dump single selection two-party -- Get strategic score voting with no machines. Or starve.
When lenders fail to understand and accept reality and inject more money, then again and then again for the third tine and then start asking themselves question on why on earth we cannot have our beautiful hard earned pressed money I do expect life will eventually turn back to them..very violently indeed..
The people voted "No". It is the Greek politicians who are always surrendering.
But the people failed to realize that "NO" included "NO" money, "NO" loans, thus "NO" pensions. Just where did they think income was going to come from with a "NO" vote?
Europeans fear that the Greek plan is "to have the banks reopened so the depositors can withdraw the remaining money and then pull the plug."
It's amazing to me that all the deposits weren't taken out months ago. It's not like this crisis should have sneaked up on anyone.
This statement may be the missing "key"
Once the local people's money is withdrawn from the banks - set the match and burn the system -
Then go to the Drachma - nationalize the banks - and reverse the asset sales / pensions changes / and get a further bridge elsewhere - and renounce all the debt as a Fraud
Otherwise nothing makes sense for the next twenty years
It's amazing to me that all the deposits weren't taken out months ago. It's not like this crisis should have sneaked up on anyone.
I believe the few people still working in Greece (gubmint employees) get paid via direct deposit, so have no choice in the matter.
Yes, and the pensions are held hostage, too, but all those Greeks lined up at the ATMs were withdrawing something, but only when it was too little, too late.
This lesson is not lost on the Portuguese, Spanish, Italians, etc. and their turn will come.
People voted NO to a new MoU and did not care about the risk of a total collapse. They didn't care about their pensions for a few months until we returned to drachmas. Tsipras betrayed his people.
He is fucked and they are fucked. There are no good answers that don't involve pain. And lots of it. The math here suggests that the people's will does not matter until they grap pointy objects and aim them in the right direction. So, Greece clearly needs to work much, much harder on getting old people and young people to hate each other, same for different regions, dialects, races, public versus private sector, etc. Geeze, you would think people would pay attention to the US about it is supposed to be done! Damn.
Tsipras has to be bluffing, he must know it will not be accepted, he couldn't poosibly be such a piece of scum.....could he?
In the end, these so called leaders have all proved to be scum!
If Troika accepts the deal,Greece will be happy to take their donation, since Greece can surely figure out a way to bypass the intent of the deal.
i can only hope he is bluffing....
Yes, watch his face during Farage's speech at the EU - the face of a traitor caught in a spotlight.
Looney, you simply dont understand. If Germany is going to leave the bar tab open, why not have another bottle of ouzo on the house? The Greeks and the bar owner both know it will never be paid for. This is just palliative care
How many who has spent decades burying themselves in debt suddenly obtained a conscience and acted responsibly? Probably about as many as have decided to abstain from drinking after similar decades of alcoholism.
I was wrong.
To me it appeared that Tsipis had achieved a political triumph His coalition was elected mostly on platforms of negotiating a better deal, without a strong mandate from the electorate or the polls for decisive action. By taking the negotiations to their agonizing limit, by exposing the impossibility of reaching a deal with the banksters that the Greek people could live with, by defying the banksters and taking it to a referendum, Tsipis won a solid mandate to say No to them, a commitment of the people to stand together behind the government if it came to a fight.
Many of you warned that he was caving. That he would cave. That he didn't have the balls to see this through. The drama isn't over yet but it's clear now that you were right and Tsipis is no Judo master; because if this is Judo he's taken it too far and his coalition is fracturing. It appears now that the only thing that can save his government, Syriza and Greece - and perhaps Europe - from a full disaster is a failure of the Troika to digest their prey - by the Troika throwing Greece out of the Euro anyway.
Can the friend I made a bet with collect now? Or can I still say "hold on now, this isn't over yet - it's not done til the ink is dry?"
+1 Pay up now. Tsipis punked out, game over.
-1 "hold on, this isn't over yet - it's not done til the ink is dry."
I just voted -1. If Tsipis wheels decisively now, declares a state of emergency, nationalizes the banks, announces a new currency and calls on all Greeks to rally behind him, he wins.
Give him a few days to call on all of Greece's friends ans supporters throughout Europe to demand the Troika accept his proposal, but he can't wait long.
If he whines or flinches he loses..
The Greeks had a chance to wipe the slate clean, reclaim their sovereignty, and start re-building their country the way they want to. Instead, they keep choosing to go even deeper into the rabbit’s asshole.
Every country has this chance at all times... we aren't just supposed to create governments and then forget about them til the world is burning.
The problem for the greeks is that the entire country is at odds with one another. You have pensioners who demand to be paid, but yet there is no money in the treasury. You have young people who demand jobs, but yet are not interested in having their paychecks go to the pensions of others. So long as the young people are content not working, but having their rudimentary needs met, then delaying restructuring only helps greece... other countries foot the bill for the pension/retirement payments and business goes on as usual. The beaches and ocean aren't going anywhere, but I figure the gold will before its all over.
you are correct.
just so happens that my friend is living with his parent and taken care of. His mother gets a pension (his dad died a couple years ago)
He bitches a lot about what is happening to his country,but is content in that he has food on the table and a place to live
I try to make him face reality and ask him what he is going to do when his mom dies...
He avoids thinking about it.
We all need to stop pretending Greek people possess self-determination, clearly they don't.
Or maybe, *shudder*shock*horror*, they do, just as much as any other people, and this is the natural result of their collective choices over three and a half decades, no evil conspiracies required. Of course, the Greeks will never admit that, preferring to blame any and every conceivable fabricated imagined perceived enemy except their own determination to live beyond their means at all costs.
Not the only, merely the first.
If Tsipras had 100K to put into options on the major markets back in the beginning of the year he could have doubled his money every time he flipped or flopped. He could easily be a billionaire by now. A bit longer and he could pay off the Greek debt by himself. Of course it's a bit harder to fly under the radar when placing positions worth billions.
Estonian Finance Minister Sven Sester "Greeks can't be trusted".
Unlike the Estonians who last time this fascist shit was happening in Europe made nice trustworthy little concentration camp guards while the Greeks resisted to the last.
Issue a new currency backed by kalamata olives. It'd still be more valuable than any fiat. Figure it out!!!
Your entertainment for a slow warm weekend.
*grabs popcorn*
Can't wait til the Sunday night (USA) cinema show begins in Asia.
THE ATHENS STOCK MUST RE-OPEN.
UNTIL THEN THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING IS ZERO.
NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS IN THE GOD DAMN FUCKING GREEK BANKS.
IN ORDER TO EVEN EXIST THIS MUST BE KNOWN IN THE FORM OF A RECAPITLAIZATION INTO A NATIONAL "BANK OF GREECE" YOU STUPID IGNORANT RETARDED FUCKS.
I SAY A AGAIN....THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING IN GREECE IS ZERO.
YOU WILL HAVE A RUSH TO COINAGE AS NO MONEY WILL CIRCULATE BECAUSE THERE WILL NOT BE ANY CASH.
ALREADY THE CASH PREMIUMS HAVE SURGED....BUT THERE WILL BE ZERO SILVER AND GOLD IN CIRCULATION.
THAT LEAVES A SINGLE FUCKING COPPER PENNY AS YOUR MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE.
Move along....
Tsipras the turncoat and traitor:
With extraordinary speed, the Syriza-led government in Greece has repudiated the landslide “no” vote in Sunday’s referendum on European Union (EU) austerity demands.
Only four days after Greek workers and youth voted overwhelmingly to reject the dictates of the EU, the government has presented a proposal for €13 billion in austerity measures for the consideration of European finance ministers and government heads meeting this weekend. The Greek government is hoping the brutal measures will secure it a €53 billion EU bailout.
The proposal, which was approved overwhelmingly by the Greek parliament Friday morning, is even more savage than the €9 billion austerity package Greek voters rejected in the referendum. It includes:
*A gradual increase in the retirement age from 62 to 67, completed by 2022, along with “disincentives” to early retirement.
*The elimination of a solidarity grant for poor pensioners and a 50 percent increase in health costs for pensioners.
*A socially regressive increase in the VAT (sales tax) on most goods to 23 percent, applied also to Greece’s numerous, often remote and impoverished islands.
*Cuts to public-sector salaries imposed by “unifying” the wage grid for government workers, together with further attacks on labor laws.
*The completion of all currently planned privatizations, including regional airports and the ports of Piraeus, Thessaloniki and Hellinikon.
*Cuts to fuel subsidies for farmers, along with stricter enforcement of tax laws to increase the tax burden on small businesses, property owners and the self-employed.
With consummate cynicism, Syriza leader and Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has sought to present this direct repudiation of the will of the Greek people as a triumph of democracy
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/07/11/pers-j11.html
I must concur. Like Arnold Benedict, Tsiparis has committed treachery against his countrymen. Perhaps, he has less than honorable intentions to gain temporary monies for short term stability; however, the Devil will always extend credit to those of desperate need. What they are currently experiencing may be minor in comparison to the future day of reckoning. The International Mafia Fund, and the likes, will tenaciously pursue monies owed, ...by any means.
Let me make things simpler for people in the coming months before the next Pres. election- the Clintons and the Bushes are ABOVE THE LAW with their tight and strong ties to the military/industrial complex and any power that foments wars. You are absolutely wasting your time trying to hold these people accountable! Sadly enough, the only way this nation can ever self-correct itself is by letting the clueless see(hopefully!) just how destructive and non-representative people like the Bushes and Clintons actually are towards Americans. It may take a bit longer as many Americans are steeped in denial about the "sanctity" of America and its "leaders"!
Holy shit shoot this dead horse!
Just default and get it over with
Oh, they haven't?
Good point. I guess I should have added "once and for all."
That's a phrase we've been hearing again and again for years now.
If Greece had defaulted way back in 2010 they would be well on the road to recovery by now. But after 5 years of 'bailout' their social structures and financial vitality had degraded to such a point that to default now would be much more painful than in 2010. So like the heroin junkie, the path of least (immediate) pain is back into the drug of choice.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
This is exactly right and people like Carl Weinberg were calling for it - via a managed write-down. WAY BACK THEN he said their debt was unsustainable.
What happened in the intervening years? The EU took the opportunity to move the debt from private banks (the worst off were those in France) to the public sector via the ECB and IMF.
The banks DIVESTED over the intervening years. So NOW if they default it's on the backs of the public.
But it's STILL unmanageable. So just DO IT.
It's high time people of the world declare war on a common enemy.
Goldman Sachs strides the earth with impunity, plundering everything in it's path.
"A rich man's war and a poor man's fight..."
Head Of Greek Debt Office Replaced By Former Goldman Investment Bankerhttp://www.zerohedge.com/article/head-greek-debt-office-replaced-former-...
This.
If Greece had defaulted way back in 2010 they would be well on the road to recovery by now. But after 5 years of 'bailout' their social structures and financial vitality had degraded to such a point that to default now would be much more painful than in 2010.
I disagree with the level of certainty presented in your statement. In a vacuum, all else equal, this might be true. However, due to the interconnected nature of world financial markets, among other things, I do not believe that we can single out the likelihood of recovery for particular nations who are forced to suffer for their prolifigate spending. At "normal" times, the system accepts the default of a nation and goes about its business, but what happens when multiple entire continents default (either privately or publicly)?
have you heard of ....Iceland?
Yes, as well as the scores of other countries who have defaulted... do you want to actually address the point I made? Is it your contention that the derivative losses and contagion from a greek default is the same as iceland? Also, I'm not sure iceland is the bastion of recovery and I would be careful citing it as the shining example of triumph.
I keep repeating this (sorry if you've read it before) but Iceland didn't bail out their banks even though they were being strong-armed to by the EU. It wasn't a public sector failure. It was a private sector failure.
Greece will be a public sector failure. No one will lend to them again for the foreseeable future AND the vast majority of their government spending is now public sector transfer payments (I'm including public sector employment in that - not technically correct, but... ) currently to the pensioners and public sector employees.
When those payments stop when they default things will be MUCH MUCH MUCH worse for the Greeks. They will be FORCED to live within their means.
Eventually they will recover.
Cog Diss - Agreed. same as the US in 2007/08. Which of course, would hve been a world wide recession/ depression with violence toward zio-bankers. But you are correct, we would be on our way toward recovery by now. World wide recovery, but no Goldman Sachs.
Translation:
All your Greece belong to us.
C/P: { BRUSSELS (AP) -- Greek government negotiators headed into bailout talks Saturday after both parliament and Athens' international creditors gave the proposals enough backing to set up a weekend of crucial negotiations to stave off financial collapse.
The Greek parliament early Saturday passed the bailout proposals package with 251 votes in favor and 32 against.}..
Derek Gatopoulos @dgatopoulos 55m55 minutes ago
Syriza dissent worsens, 15 more MPs say they won't back austerity (despite supporting Tsipras last night) #Greecehttp://goo.gl/VZDw0x
That's it!..
They voted for it before they voted against it....or do I have it backwards?
bass ackwards
Greece in the European Financial Economic Dictionary translate to SLAVERY
I predict Greece will be cut free. Merkel won't cough up anymore Euros to the feckless Greeks, everyong knows they won't keep to any agreement and we will be all back for more.
Nobody is "cut free" unless they are dead. They can write down, haircut, dismissed, can kick or whatever, but debt will remain and will be used for purpose. It's why it was created in the first place.
I sure hope so, Greece is cut free. It's their only hope.
And it seems quite likely, because, up to now, as Greece moves towards Germany so Germany moves still furtther away; making ever more demands so that there can never be an agreement.
Seems as if an explanation on how the Greek mind works is necessary. It's very shrewd.
Only difference between a Greek and a Jew(no offense to either) is that the Greek is not part of the collective when push comes to shove. Meaning the Jews stand together until the end. The Greek does not. They will F another Greek in the end (no pun intended)
If errr When Greece is to default, they will not do it until they can no longer get any more money. This process will rinse and repeat until the other side, in this case Germany, realizes that they are being played.
Varoufakis stepping down does not indicate anything other than a trick to let the Germans think this time it's different.
Greece WILL default when they can no longer get any money...Greece has nothing to lose... after all. they did operate at a surplus with some austerity for a year and they are hanging their hopes on that. Worst case.
Makes no difference... The entire globe is waiting for a recovery to get them out of the mess they are in... War or complete collapse is imminent... either way, we're all screwed... You're a prepper? Good for you... You get to live about 6 months longer than the average bear... That is, if your preps aren't taken away from you.
None of this can end well. You will clap and cheer when it all collapses and you will say I told you so.....BFD.
Many of you understand that everything we do is for one of two reasons..
1-avoidance of pain
2-attainment of pleasure
In finance that translates to
1-fear
2-greed
Many are here (zero hedge) for one of the two
Live your life while you still can.
Truth Hurts.
Enjoy.
The latest; five Euro countries want Greece thrown out of the Euro for five years, in reality they will never be back.
The caring hands of socialism,
Getting to have the baklava, but not yet being able to eat it too?
Looks like they are going to let greece swing in the wind for a while until they get the measures passed. The pain of it will likely get them passed.
.
.
"Full capitulation" MY A§$!!!
Greek government is simultaneously
making a less than serious offer externally,
all while shouting (as if only Greeks would hear it) to the Greek population that they don't want or mean it.
Agree, very smart move Mr. Tsipros.
Basically, he pushed EU proposal back into the throat of EU when EU has already agreed to let Greece go bankrupt.
EU cannot simply accept their own proposal now because the lif? moved on .. but they cannot simply reject it too as this was their own proposal!
And this is now for EU to decide, not up to Greece, well played, greeks!
To the government of Greece, your people said OXI, now you are bending and licking the boots of the ECBanksters and betraying your people. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves, you are completing the destruction of your country and should hang your heads in shame at what you are doing.
Your people wanted to be proud even though they knew it would be painful, but you have taken that away. You should resign as you are not fit to be in government.
The only real hope for Greece is that the EU and IMF will reject that proposal anyway.
There is a good chance that this is what will happen.
In other words:
Greeks, get on your knees and beg the Troika if you want assistance. The Troika will then consider the plea.
Trying to fix Greece using the Troika methods is akin to trying to stir concrete with a disposal plastic spoon. The problems of the Euro are not just bad architecture and a cobbling together of incompatible parts, it is also due to a lack of real, gutsy, intellectual and disciplined leadership which might otherwise have at least had the gumption to make the hard decisions going forward.
The longer tey refuse to accept the fact that they have made some real blunders, the longer they will swirl around the drain which leads to hell.
Greece will continue to be in the news going forward as we start to possibly see humanitarian aid flowing to it to stave off hunger and a complete breakdown of society.
Even with Greece in hell, their leaders will continue to do just fine. Some will be empowered by the EU, while others will receive their power from their populace constituency.
Many of you are bewildered why the Greek govt is accepting a proposal it strongly rejected earlier.
The realisation that a real rational deal cannot be done has prompted the govt to agree on any bullshit Germany wants, the measures agreed will never actually be seriously put into practice .
A seniot Greek govt official encapsulated the whole senario/attitude like this : We should fight in a battle ground we can win, not where we cannot win.
In other words agree to everything to give time to get ready and switch the battlefield for the battle that greece will win.
This is Sparta!
Simplez Bitchez
Politicians do this every day all over the planet. They say what they must to endear enough voters to be elevted, and then do what they want. Its much like we see businesses today. Most do not give one shit about their customer's satisfaction as long as they think they can buy new customers.
Strategic retreat....are they that smart or disciplined? Or is it dismantling the ship for firewood? Others should be inching toward the lifeboats.
Hopefully China might be hitting some brick walls with its stock market next week in which case Greece dhould ride those coat tails and make the whole system tip over by formally defaulting.
Black monday anyone.
I've never experienced drug addiction, but I think that I have a fairly good understanding of why many addicts must hit rock-bottom – often flirting with death – before making the decision to stop (and live). That decision is not only profoundly important for obvious reasons, but because it also serves as a deep and powerful reminder that every human being has the ability to change his or her life in a radical manner. I suspect that this dynamic is, in terms of the economy, very similar to what we are seeing unfold in piecemeal fahion around the world.
The ECB, Sovereigns, big banks, and all bondholders that hold the (unsutainable) debt are doing everything in their power to prevent various populations from hitting rock-bottom (much like a drug dealer 'looking after' his clients), as they know that the sordid, though profitable game will be over then.
What we are seeing in Greece is an increasing understanding by the broader population of what is necessary, as the initial, euphoric effects of the debt inexorably give way to temporary pain relief at best, and from increasingly frequent 'injections'. But what truly frightens TPTB out of their socks is the possibility that the populations of other European countries and/or China may also arrive at the same conclusion, that excessive debt can only lead to pain and misery, and that a refusal to continue with the awful charade is the only solution.
They want us to be content with debt addiction. The antidote is to reject the intrinsically corrupt system, focus on what is truly important, and become as self-sufficient as possible.
Don't make excuses – it can be done. Don't let them control your destiny.
We have returned to: "LET THEM EAT CAKE". Time to bring back the guillotines, and make sure that the Troika is facing upwards as the blade comes down!
Without hoodies on either. I want to see it.
There's rumors floating around that assheads from the US are in negotiations behind closed doors and doing such things as guaranteeing Greek debt. Hard telling what threats are being made. You like your wife and kids, right?
Greece will bow down like good little bitches and accept reality. They are no longer a sovereign nation. Adjust to life as a German colony and move on. It will be painful and demoralizing, but there is nothing they can do about it.
well they had a chance to do something about it and still could
but won't.
it is their own fault and might as well stop bitching as i tell my friend over in Greece
this whole thing just makes me sick.
That socialism thing is a bitch, once you run out of other people's money.
The problem with that mantra is that it has not been the
'socialists',
but instead Wall Street and War Street that have been
in control of government
and taking 'other people's money'.
The fact is, that the wealth transfer has been upward to enrich the very top,
while impoverishing ALL below.
"Troika Says Greek Proposal Not Enough To Meet Targets"
Troika: the target number of Greek people now homeless, living on the streets and scrounging food from trash bins has not been reached.
Schaeuble: "MUST DO MORE"
Well, Germany does excell at making starving people work to death.
What is impossible nobody can be obliged to conform to.
Tsipras knows that and so do the Troika.
Unless there is debt writeoff the deal is not doable.
Period.
I don't think anyone knows what the f*ck is going on anymore. Every side is playing multiple angles, from pandering to the citizens to satisfying the banksters to keeping the Euro together to exiting the Euro, straight negotiations and ultimatums to subtle game theory. I'm not sure anyone is in control.
Greeks want it all ways. Troika wants to own greece. Tsipras is a jagoff who will eventually let them and he'll move to another country with a large swiss bank account. Book it
I'm not sure anyone is in control.
If someone was in control it would be being settled, one way or another. What is happening is a straight game of consequences.
1 - the EU bureaucracy want Greece to repay everything, to be taught a lesson, and stay in the Euro. Different countries have different priorities. Germany wants the lesson most, France wants the 'stay in the Euro' most. So that's why there are different signals.
2 - the Greek People want to stay in the Euro and not to be taught a lesson. They don't mind repaying, so long as it happens over several lifetimes.
3 - the current Greek government has been very successful in extracting the best deal it can by playing each of the Euro members off against the other. Unfortunately, the best deal that can be achieved is probably not good enough. So now the weakest partner to the negotiations will have to lose their red line.
I do not know if the weakest partner is the Greek people, or France. But it's one of those...
I'm not sure anyone is in control.
If someone was in control it would be being settled, one way or another. What is happening is a straight game of consequences.
1 - the EU bureaucracy want Greece to repay everything, to be taught a lesson, and stay in the Euro. Different countries have different priorities. Germany wants the lesson most, France wants the 'stay in the Euro' most. So that's why there are different signals.
2 - the Greek People want to stay in the Euro and not to be taught a lesson. They don't mind repaying, so long as it happens over several lifetimes.
3 - the current Greek government has been very successful in extracting the best deal it can by playing each of the Euro members off against the other. Unfortunately, the best deal that can be achieved is probably not good enough. So now the weakest partner to the negotiations will have to lose their red line.
I do not know if the weakest partner is the Greek people, or France. But it's one of those...
Even if no one has absolute control, there definitely exists networks of people who hold massive influence over all of the parties involved. As always, this represents the idea of not letting a good crisis go to waste.
The old "I voted for it before I was against it" gambit.
Face it Greece. The Euros voted you off the island.
Find your own cocoanuts.
You wanted some Hope and Change? You got it.
BTW...the landlord says you still owe some back rent.
What are the CIA officers up to in Athens? Clandestine meetings with their agents in the military? Their agents in the bank holding the physical Au?
Look. I know it's sad and doesn't represent the PEEPULZ derived democratic wish that tells the Troika to fuck off for Christmas bc this turkey is already stuffed, but look at it for what it is (apart from a fuckup)
In the supposed birthplace of democracy - where democracy is a failed concept - just like 'democracy' in the USSA - NO means yes.
How much more will it take before some sentient biped "takes out" the true culprit behind this cime of crimes - GOLDMAN SUCKZ?
Even offing a minor board meeting might be a constructive step. Are we all this captured +- and incapable of dealing with the monster?
Soon signs at all ports of entry displaying "ARBEIT MACHT FREI" will emphasize Greece's status as a gigantic German work camp.
Well it seems like the Troika are trying everything to piss off Greece and create a Grexit.
Come on 175% debt/GDP to 200% - That means Greece can never ever recover, no matter what they do. More Austerity will do nothing at all. And if they truly created a budget Surplus it would mean total devestation of the population.
Greece is fully beyond econmic repair.
Jump you bastards, jump.
Greece will follow another former great nation which is now in abject ruin - Egypt
Only the geographical position saved greece until now
Troika must know this only creates more angst in Greece, more suffering, more frustration, and that Greece is totally fucked economically.
So they either want a Grexit, or cause such chaos that there is total breakdown in the country.... to stop the govt from surviving and moving over to Russia/China?
Seems the former Finance Minister left because Tsipras lost his nerve maybe??
huh.. backhanded plea for russian influence against US imperialism?
All Tsipras had to do was demand debt write down or default, two options. I think they have no idea how to implement their own currency and they are just tilting at windmills. Obuttfuck will probably offer US taxpayers guarantee in exchange for some more military bases and arms sales for his bros. We all know Obie loves greek
Greece is a very hot country for 6 months of the year. Making people work until they are 67 - they are basically signing their death warrants.
The TROIKA are basically agents of the Zionist Banksters and are trying to inflict on the Greek people what they have already inflicted on the North European people's.
I hope to god this is a bluff by Greece otherwise their fate is sealed.
Here you can complement your thougths, with this. It help...
{ http://bit.ly/1FNMLUS }
it's nice reading!...
Saludos...
But these Socialists/Communists/Marxists/Trotskyites are different!
They are not like all the other Socialists/Communists/Marxists/Trotskyites that came before them over the last 150 or so years.
E72 billion is on the table.
All one can say is "Take the money and run!"
If the greek people don't see what Tsipras has done as an act of dictatorship, then they are dumb and deserve what comes next.
Same can be said for Obama and American sheeple
Who thinks this debt will ever be paid back? Eventually the grownups will have to step in and tell the children that Greece is just the tip off the iceberg. Portugal, Spain, Italy are looming below the surface.
This is just like Abbott & Costello....two tens for a five...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7pMYHn-1yA
I don't get it. Greece is just asking Europe to do exactly what they and the rest of the world have been doing: cure debt with more debt. Is anybody believing for one second that Japan, China, USA, England and most of European countries are going to pay their debts? Ever? So stop picking up on a country of 11 millions and look where the real problems are. Greece is just the entree of the big meal coming.
Greece was set up precisely for this moment to occur. The symbolic "cradle of democracy" is about to get a very, very black mark to tarnish it.
Tsipras: "hey guys, wanna see all of my cards!!!!"
Wonder if we will see Varoufakis called back. That would mean the nuclear option being seriously considered for once.
It will be in the best interest of Greece to tell the ECB to go to hell, default on its loans, exit the Euro and follow Iceland to the path of economic recovery having borne the short term pain of its currency being devaulated. The other option for Greece is to kneel to ECBs terms and follow the path of Financial Slavery for the foreseeable future. ECB is representing the banks who have lent money to Greece without due diligence and now want their loans with interest back by imposing financial hardships on the working class in Greece.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article40231.html
What they really need is some kind of new Greek national Party. A national-socialist Party, preferably. For the Greek "workers".
A Greek National-Socialist Workers Party.
We'll call them the "GRAZIs"!!!
It would be interesting to know what the average government pension is for government workers who retire at 50 and the average pension for private sector workers who retire at 50.
All .gov pensions are scams designed to buy votes. In US, lets say a .gov employee earning $60K yr retires at 55 with $45K pension. Lives to 85 and ends up drawing $1.3 million in pension payments. Private sector worker saves 10% of his income or $6K per year for 35 years and ends up with $300-$400K in savings. The .gov employee never made a single sacrifice saving money and enjoyed almost free healthcare and many holidays and vacations that private sector doesn't get.
The people are always fucked by the government
Let's change the name to deferred compensation. It works for the executive class. Dick Grasso extracted $100 million in deferred compensation. Why does it bother you that a loyal employee who worked 30 years gets a modest living upon retirement? The reality is that most people get a meager pension for many years hard work. The "retire at 55 with 80% pay" crowd is very small. Most retire at 60-65 and draw $1 to 2,000 per month in the U.S. Not exactly living on easy street.
Why not leave everyone to save for their own? I have 3 school teachers relatives and I know what the pensions are. 80%- 2 retired at 58 and 1 at 60. Nice comfy retirement for 30 years or so after working 9 months a year. Try and get that in private sector. Also know a retired administrator that gets six figure pension and he's working for the school district as a "consultant" after retirement for another six figures. I don't give a fuck what Grasso gets because I ain't paying it but I do pay the school teachers and other .gov employees and my well is running dry.
.
The structure of Greek tragedy is characterized by a set of conventions. The tragedy usually begins with a prologue, (from pro and logos, "preliminary speech") in which one or more characters introduce the drama and explain the background of the ensuing story. The prologue is followed by the parodos (???????), after which the story unfolds through three or more episodes (?????????, epeisodia). The episodes are interspersed by stasima (??????o?, stasimon), choral interludes explaining or commenting on the situation developing in the play. The tragedy ends with the exodus (??????), concluding the story. Some plays do not adhere to this conventional structure.
In Europe apparently Greeks put in more working hours a year than other countries, Germany among the least.
They want to now rape the Greeks who as a nation voted against this proposal a week ago. Germany's debts were written off yet they want to stick it to the Greeks.
I hope for the Greeks Putin or Xi moves in, helps the Greeks out and tell the Germans and Lagarde and Co to fuck themselves.
I think I am going to donate some coin to Greece so they can open their banks. I don't believe people should go hungry while politicians play their games. Tsiris and crew better start looking for a place to hide.
I hope you realize that the average Grecian is fucked hard either way. The deal will make life a little more bearable. If they leave, Europe and the U.S. will take great pleasure in making life exceedingly hard on the Greek people for exposing the cracks in the world financial system. And if even 1 derivative contract is paid, the Greek people will be forced to pay in blood.
As far as the derivate is concerned, it is all based on risk isn't it? So is lending to people whithout the wherewithall to repay. They know they stand to lose it.
My wife and I have had family members request loans over the years with promises to pay back. That rarely happened, payback and it frustrated my wife and caused rifts. Me, I told my wife, consider the 'loan' as a gift from now on and do not expect to be repaid, it will be much easier on everyone. However we will only give money for important things like food, shelter, stuff like that. Not for business ideas and so on.
The vast majority of debt in the world, especially government debt, can never be repaid. Paradoically, it only continues to exist by accepting that premise. It’s just as phony as the Chinese stock market, where prices can only be sustained as long as nobody sells.
Some have argued that it’s more about flows than levels. Fine, but, once that stops you’ve got nothing. The piper will not be paid. He will be eaten by the rats.
Unfortunately any Austerity deal fixes nothing and the end result is still more debt, and a future of debt upon debt. Which hardly goes to the Greek people or even govt, just recycled back to banks.
Austerity cannot work, it does a whole lot more damage and reduces revenue faster than expenses because of an immediate shrinking economy. Its like a dog chasing its tail, and Troika wants to cut more off that tail.
This is the consequence of the the damned CB and Fed policies. Lower interest rates so everybody can increase their debt until they cannot pay their interests, with a bigger debt. The CB's and Fed are criminals and are destroying the world economy.
hooray, new weekly "round tables".
this is sparta, in extreme slow motion
leonidas foot just one inch away from touching the negotiator
actual hit incoming before september 1st
when some books have to be closed
nice that ucraine simply disappeard in the weekend msm roundups
someone else to bully always in need
This coward, Tsipras, really needs to be hung by his people. How dare he do this to his country that stood behind HIS NO proposal.
Tsipras is a moron if he continues to stay in the Euro.
Greece needs to abandon ship while there are still life-boats.
The Euro is the Titanic, you dont want to be on it when it goes down because it will suck your country down with it when she finally sinks.
Print drachmas and stop negotiating with terrorist "creditor" organizations.
Greece's current tab is 1.7 billion. They get 22.5 million visitors a year. The due debt comes to $164 per visitor. So charge $200 entry fee per touriist and refund it on a sliding scale with 100% refunded if the tourist spends at least a month in the country. The trick would be getting the tax back from the Greek companies that cater to the tourists. Any tourist who spends a month there would pay over $200 in taxes on lodging, food, and entertainment.