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US Army May Use Hollow Points In New Pistols In Violation Of International Protocol
A few months back, when "boots on the ground" trial balloons were floating around Washington, one argument made for sending so-called "forward spotters" to Iraq and possibly to Syria was that US airstrikes against ISIS needed to be made more efficient and more precise in order to minimize collateral damage.
As a reminder here’s an excerpt from a Bloomberg piece published on May 22:
Conducting precision airstrikes that avoid civilian casualties is more difficult without spotters using laser designators and other tools to guide them, particularly in and around cities, said a State Department official who spoke under ground rules requiring anonymity.
A U.S. airstrike in November against a different extremist group in Syria killed two children and wounded two adults, the Defense Department reported Thursday.
On Capitol Hill Thursday, retired General Jack Keane, a former vice chief of staff of the Army, said deploying JTACs, also called forward air controllers, could quickly shift the balance against Islamic State by making its fighters more vulnerable to U.S. and coalition air attacks.
"Seventy-five percent of the sorties we are currently running with our attack aircraft come back without dropping bombs, mostly because they cannot acquire the target or cannot properly identify the target," he said. "Forward air controllers fix that problem."
As we noted at the time, carefully worded trial balloons don’t get much better than that. You see, the problem is that we are accidentally killing innocent children on our bombing runs and that’s if we’re lucky enough to be able to drop any bombs at all which apparently we only do a quarter of the time, and the whole "problem" could be "fixed" by deploying a couple of "spotters" with laser pointers.
Interestingly, officials seem to pay quite a bit more attention to collateral damage when citing civilian casualties can serve as a means to an end - an end like invading Syria, a state which is ripe for 'regime change.'
Conversely, when a drone strike vaporizes a 'high value' target from the stratosphere and a few innocents turn up in the smoldering wreckage, well, that’s just the cost of doing business if you’re the CIA.
In that context, we thought it was interesting that the US Army is considering using hollow point ammunition in their new standard issue handguns on the premise that doing so will reduce civilian casualties. Fragmenting ammunition does a lot more damage and thus has more "stopping power" than full metal jacket ammo, so one might reasonably suspect that the Army’s goal in giving every soldier a magazine full of hollow points is simply to increase the kill rate. Not so, says the Army - it’s all about preventing collateral damage. Here’s Army Times with more:
The Army is considering the use of expanding and fragmenting ammunition, such as hollow point bullets, to increase its next-generation handgun's ability to stop an enemy.
After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of asymmetric warfare.
Most of the Army uses full metal jacket, or ball ammunition, in both handguns and rifles. These rounds are designed to hold together, increasing penetration and narrowing the tunnel of damaged tissue.
Expanding and fragmenting bullets can flatten or break apart, and are more likely to remain in the body of a target and transfer all of their energy to it. A wider swath of tissue is typically destroyed.
On the battlefield, the U.S. has generally observed the 1899 Hague Convention rule barring expanding and fragmenting rounds, despite the fact that it never has been signatory to that particular agreement, Russell said.
The U.S. reserved the right to use different ammunition where it saw a need. For example, Criminal Investigations Command and military police use hollow points — as do law enforcement agencies around the country — in part to minimize collateral damage of bullets passing through the target. Special Forces also uses expanding/fragmenting rounds in counter-terrorism missions.
"The use of this ammunition supports the international law principles of preventing excessive collateral effects and safeguarding civilian lives," an Army statement said.
So the US never signed up for this ban on special purpose ammo and always reserved the right to use it "where it saw the need", which apparently is now everywhere.
Note that the Hague Convention rule wasn't something that was adopted for no reason. The ban on non standard rounds was put in place because, again quoting the Army Times, "the bullets caused unnecessary and therefore inhumane injury unrelated to stopping a combatant from continuing to fight."
After reading the above, you might be tempted to think that this is yet another example of the US simply ignoring international protocol - and you'd be right. But don't worry (and here's the punchline), the Pentagon thought about it and as it turns out, the fragmenting ammunition rule doesn't "make much sense", so much like territorial sovereignty in the Middle East, the US Army is free to ignore it:
"There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now" - Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War
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It's not a clip, it's a magazine.
Criminey. I expect ignorant shit like that in Time magazine, not ZH.
Thanks, Buckaroo; that drives me crazy!
[The other one is people who don't know the difference between a 'bullet' and a 'cartridge.']
As for hollow points; law enforcement has been using them around here since forever (and so have I).
Of course 'gun-control' idiots don't realize the advantage to expanding bullets: they generally stop in the body of the bad guy rather than going through and killing the mother pushing the stroller behind the bad guy.
They also tend to be better at actually dropping the bad guy; which is, after all, probably the reason you're shooting at him in the first place.
[I wish people would think before they spout stupid, uninformed crap...]
Liberals are fond of saying that conservatives are afraid of things that are different and that they don't understand.
Well, what about liberals and firearms?...
If a conservative doesn't like meat, he doesn't eat it. If a liberal doesn't like meat, he outlaws it. Get it?
"Vegetarian" is an old Native American word meaning: "Bad Hunter."
If its not worth using hollow points, or for that matter killing women and children, then it's not worth fighting over at all.
The Marine Corp has used shotguns since WWI in violation of some treaty somewhere nobody cares about.
I’m good with ditching the FMJ’s.
I would much rather my personal defense rounds expand within the aggressor than penetrate him/her and even so much as nick an innocent wall or bystander.
Expanding rounds are very much in keeping with our esteemed former Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders admonition: “What we need is safer guns and safer bullets”.
Of course, one needs the larger FMJ’s for his or her personal suppressive fire and anti-materiel hardware.
edit.. well, so much for effective personal protection and stopping power in this thread.
BTW.. to me, gun control is safe practice and point of aim.
edit 2:
And for those of you who do not have a clue, the hand gun is a defensive weapon in the military… you do not see the Marines breach a door with their hand guns at the fore.. that is what their assault weapons are for.
Even if you are a trans gender Marine Lieutenant, I would rather you have a +P defense hollow point in your handgun if you were unfortunate enough to need it in a face to face with an ISIS schmuck.
If you are worried about hollow points, worry about the billion of them that the DHS already has and the ones that are in the hand guns of every cop you lay your eyes upon.
Load up with some Winchester Ranger T 147gr and the debate over 9mm stopping power will end.
I'll take my 230 grain PMC Starfires all day, every day.
Especially, since I got 400 of them for $160 shipped.
Since when did the US military give a flying fuck about collateral damage?
This change is brought to you ccourtesy of lobbying to increase the market for these types of bullets. It should also reduce the number of US wounded military, making wars cheaper. Dead is much less costly than wounded.
The Beretta FS-92 (M-9) is a wonderful piece of work. I own a half dozen of them, several variants; ultra-reliability is why they have been the military go-to side arm all these years and the workmanship is impeccable.. the two blue standard 9 mm ones I have are my plinking handguns. One of them has the LaserMax internal spring guide laser.
If I went into the way-back machine and came out as a grunt in theater, my issue M9 would get stowed and my personal M960 (.40) would fit perfectly in my issue holster and my pack would have a couple hundred 165 gr Gold Dots (OMG..big-hollow points!) available. The 1911 would be my back-up.
hollow points rule is all i got from this.
Hollow points are fine, being able to aim accurately under pressure trumps it though. Always has, always will.
Want moar stopping power from a hand gun!!?
Here ya go!!
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_75...
YEAH BABY!!
Plus no MAGAZINES to lose, easier to clean, doesn't jam, don't need to "rack it", no spend cases flying all over,..
And this is the kind of weapon where all you CLIP-TARDS can say "clip clip clip clip." as much as you like
Cause it really does have them.. MOON CLIPS!
You might as well carry a rifle if your up to packing that thing.
BTW .... Hollow points are generally totally ineffective against very low threat level body armor. In other words ....only effective against civilians.
No shit.
But it's so fucking cool...
Until you are the civilian, then, not so much.
"Hollow points are generally totally ineffective against very low threat level body armor."
True.. but if you have composure and good point of aim, you forget about that center mass theory and go for the melon.
Federal HST are the finest on the market, bar none. Tests prove it.
I'm SO tired of the "civilian casualties" meme.
If your country allows military action, YOU are in the line of fire.
(see 9-11)
War never means ONLY SOLDIERS die !!
I think what they're saying is that it's okay to shoot them as long as you don't hurt them.
In a mixed field of bankers, politicians and terrorists (anyone other than a banker or politician) it's important that the bullets stay confined to the intended targets.
Are they issued to the troops taking part in Jade Helm?
Ask the US military command what they consider the people who died on 9/11 (aside from the gift that keeps on giving).
isn't killing the point of shooting someone ?
No. In a war, wounding the enemy is much more expensive for them. It costs a lot more to care for the wounded, often ongoing for the life of the victim, than bury the dead.
However, if the military is going to war against its own people, then it does make sense to kill rather than wound.
Of course the primary damage mechanism of our current-issue rifle bullet is fragmentation at the cannelure as the bullet tumbles. AR owners hand-wring over fragmentation velocity/barrel length because without fragmentation, the 5.56mm is only a .22. With fragmentation it can be a nightmare.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?31666-M193-in-the-leg <-- FYI - NOT for the squeemish.
When we're talking about "inhumane" weapons, we shouldn't forget to include drone striks, cluster bombs, depleted uranium projectiles, air/fuel bombs, white phosphorus, etc. etc.
please read this book:
"The Globalization of War"https://store.globalresearch.ca/store/the-globalization-of-war-americas-...
As a shooter, one is responsible for the projectile from the moment the firing pin hits the primer until it lay dormant. One of the holy trinity of gun safety is to know thy target and what lays behind it. The use of hollow points is to transfer as much energy in to the target as possible, and spare whatever is on the other side of it. The enhanced wound channel on the target- which aids in the incapacitation of the target is secondary- may be referred to as lagniappe.
Correct. If I in self defense fire a bullet at an assailant and it hits an innocent behind the target, I am responsible for that. That's a responsibility you accept when you fire a gun regardless of circumstance.
I can't wait for the study performed by UC Berkeley to examine the effects of this more humane round (that penetrates more efficiently) on civilian collateral... holding my breath
...unless you're the police then its spray and pray and no fucks given. http://blog.sfgate.com/crime/2014/07/16/stockton-bank-robbery-car-chase-... all over some worthless paper rectangles.
I lived in Stockton for 7 years. I was very disappointed to see their response to this event. They seemed to have been aware of the civilian in the car, so this is to me, bottom line, indefensible. Hold fire, and follow.
That said, I know a few members of the SPD. They are grossly underfunded (I know, we need to scale back police, yada yada...). Parts of Stockton look like a third world country. The crimes that happen here would boil your brain in your skull. That doesn't excuse what happened, at all. But it's a very fucked up situation all around.
Actually, if you are justified in shooting someone, the instigator is responsible for any collateral damage. That's the rational behind felony murder. Of course you do have a duty to act reasonably as well, so hollow points for self-defense and well-aimed shots are a good idea all around.
Were you not paying attention that day in your crimimal law class, oh humble downvoter?
"felony murder doctrine
n. a rule of criminal statutes that any death which occurs during the commission of a felony is first degree murder, and all participants in that felony or attempted felony can be charged with and found guilty of murder. A typical example is a robbery involving more than one criminal, in which one of them shoots, beats to death or runs over a store clerk, killing the clerk. Even if the death were accidental, all of the participants can be found guilty of felony murder, including those who did no harm, had no gun, and/or did not intend to hurt anyone. In a bizarre situation, if one of the holdup men or women is killed, his/her fellow robbers can be charged with murder."
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=741
Hi, I'm Mr Downvote.
I didn't have criminal law in my curriculum, but I did have business law. You have completely missed the scope. Your example of a bad guy killing someone during the commission of a crime has no bearing on a good samaritan accidentally killing an innocent bystander.
It is called negligent homicide, and it is in the tort family. Person X has a duty to reasonable care. If X's actions demonstrate lack of reasonable care, and proximately caused Y to suffer injury/damage, then X is liable to Y. Torts work with guns, cars, mailboxes, and even trees growing in your yard. Ask John Cornyn.
If I witness a shooter walk down the aisle in church, I still have a duty of reasonable care to every person around the shooter. If I shoot at shooter and kill a man/woman/child, that is my failure to exercise reasonable care, and I caused that man/woman/child's injury/death. I am criminally and civilly liable for my actions*. That is my ass. In fact, I can be held liable by the family of the shooter for depriving them of their livelihood by killing their breadwinner. Case law from our finest judges.
It is very important for the public to realize this, because the left will kneejerk when some dumbfuck rambo kills innocent bystantders while trying to be a good samaritan. All legal gun owners will be antagonized for the action of the random Wikipedia educated legal dumbfuck, and then we all lose.
I'd like a coherent rebuttal if you disagree, but I expect only to see a red stalactite as your reply.
Because you were so nice, I will reply with no downvote. =]
This is the operative portion for our case: "a rule of criminal statutes that any death which occurs during the commission of a felony is first degree murder, and all participants in that felony or attempted felony can be charged with and found guilty of murder."
This includes any robbers killed by a Good Samaratin - but It also applies to the felons when if an innocnet bystander is killed by a Good Samaratin.
I did note above however that you have to be reasonable in your actions. You can just spray-n-pray into a crowd hoping to hit the bad guy any more than you can drive your car over 5 people to get at a single robber.
Thank you for the reply sir. I would hate to see the law destroy either of us for trying to do what we think is right when in a high adrenaline, do or die moment. I hope you and I never have to deal with it frankly.... and since you're here and I'm here, I can assume neither of us are in any of the endangered species or protected class lists....so if we fuck up, we don't get to blame the gun, childhood, society, psychosis, Bush, etc etc etc.
and to prove that I am a sympathetic anx reasonable downvoter asshole, I'm changing them to the greenz....but seriously the reds are worth more points on the scorecard
nah if a conservative doesnt like meat he pretends some bullshit "savior" of his comes to him in a dream and told him not to eat it and that some brown people over "there" are making us eat it, so he'll start a war over it that plunges an entire nation into debt. man wake the fuck up. it isnt liberal vs. conservatives, it is idiots like you vs. people who fucking read
You're a fucking tool.
For a "this isn't liberal vs conservative" comment, your comment was very anti-conservative, and beyond that, very fucking retarded.
Off your meds....
I saw this shit last week...whatever...
Game on motherfuckers.
I popped many a deer with a hard cast 240 wadcutter or 300 grn 44mag, never lost one, big hole in, big hole out. Popped one with factory hollow points out of a trapper rifle no less, heard the impact and my dog trailed blood for two miles before I quit. Shot placement is everything, I fucked up and hit the front shoulder. I wouldn't have needed my dog had I used plain old hardcast. Oh the distance was only 60 yards. Uhh my point is body armor or decent cover negates an immediate kill, just hurts like a mutherfucker for awhile
Kill'em all
Teflon coated FMJ penetrates vests and armor better. Just sayin'...
Oh, and a head shot always works, 99.9% of the time.
Jade Helm? Hollow points on citizens? Hum...
These fuckers don't realize what's coming.
Poor sods.
I have six, ten round, magazines of .45 frangibles ready for who every comes through the door. When I shoot, I don't want my bullets going to an innocent neighbor's house. I want the ball to blast a wall, door, cop, fbi agent, dhs asshole with NO particles exiting my home space. I want it contained, deadly, and ultra vicious.
For backup, I have multiple 12 guage, double ought, fully loaded, pump shotguns...just in case.
It was a dangerous situation when six cop cars parked in my yard, came to the door, realized they had the wrong house, and went two doors down. To my left is two shotguns, to my right is two .45's, all fully loaded, cocked, and ready to go. (My kids are all grown and out of here (well, except for my 27 year old who can shoot like Wyatt Earp [fucker is amazing, doesn't like guns but is a natural, he's awesome on the range!!]).
Cops left their cars blocking us in. I got to go tell the Scout riding with one of the cops to move this piece of shit out of my driveway before I set it on fire. (I was District Commissioner) Kid jumped, pulled the car about six feet and parked half-assed off the driveway. He said he couldn't move it any further or he'd get in trouble. It was good enough to get by if we had to. [Got fired from Boy Scout District Commissioner after I called some Mormon son of bitch an "asshole", whoda thunk?]
And now only the bad guys possess the crazy amuNition.
International Law (Iraq, The Geneva Conventions etc.)??
If they used .45 ACP ball ammo they would not have to worry about "stopping power" instead of the pussy 9 mm.
To the best of my knowledge the U.S. government has never been a signatory to the Hague Convention, which bans soft nose ammunition for military use. (Here, I must peremptorily state that it is NOT “The Geneva Convention”, as is popularly and incorrectly cited.) For MANY years, the U.S. military has issued riot shotguns with size 00 soft lead pellet buckshot, which is technically banned by the Convention. And as I recall, the U.S. Army has issued some match ammunition fro sniping that is not truly “full metal jacket.” And for that matter the 55 grain bullet used in our long-issued M193 ball ammunition was never completely Kosher under the Hague Convention, since it has a tendency to yaw, tumble, and occasionally disintegrate into nasty bits after hitting a human body. FWIW the U.S. has largely abided by the Hague Convention, but we are not bound by it, since we were never a signatory.
This is correct. We are not a signatory nation to the Hague Convention that does not allow hollow points. (There was more than one Hague Convention, and I don't recall if we signed the other one.) The Geneva Convention only bans the use of weapons intended to cause superfluous injury. Since we're talking about warfare, that's pretty fucking vague, and we use shit that causes more superfluous injury than any pistol that would be carried by our troops, hollow points or not. The primary purpose for FMJ with most us firearms is feeding reliability, which with a well designed pistol is moot with hollow points.
The U.S. Military is apprently not aware of their obligation to the United States Constiution, either.
So...fuck 'em.
I don't know about today's military.
I was a 1978 marine. And Boot Camp drilled the Constitution into our heads. Really, it was hammered, along with honor, duty and self-respect. We were also told to disobey an unlawful order. But be prepared to pay the price.
I suspect Marines are still trained similarly. My brother (well, step-brother), also a Marine was a 1990's Marine. He got the same sort of training. I'd back him in anything.
When it goes down, I'm hoping a Marine General takes the helm. Because we'd be back to a Constitutional System within weeks, And ALL the vermin that we've endured will have been eradicated within those weeks. And I'd assist as needed, as my brother would.
I'm 56 or so, going blind, but can still shoot a golfball from a hundred yards. Did it Saturday, again.
Don't underestimate us, don't fuck with us. We will kill you without any remorse. When the shit goes down, stay out of the way. We really don't want to hurt you, we're just moving through. Stay low and we'll ignore you. We're after the big game. And you're not it.
'77 - '91 in the Suck. School circle with the SDI in Boot. Told to disobey all unlawful orders. That is our duty. But there will be consequences.
The Hague Conventions had very little to do with the US military (and most others, for that matter) shying away from hollow point ammunition in general. The actual reason it hasn't been widely used previously is that most self-loading (i.e. magazine fed semi-automatic) firearm designs from prior to about 1990 or so would only reliably and consistantly chamber the fairly-pointed FMJ ammunition in potentially dirty, in-the-field conditions in a dependable manner (i.e. <1 failure to feed in >1000 rounds). Only in recent years has hollow point ammunition design improved to the point that the round will reliably expand on impact, and only in recent years has weapon design begun to change enough to work with truncated conic or invert conic round geometry. The Cold M1911 (designed 100 years ago) and Beretta M9 (designed 35 years ago) do not work well with hollowpoints.
You don't have a fucking clue about firearms. The whole stopping power of 45 over 9 changed with the advent of modern bullet design. ASK any cop if they would rather have twice as many rounds OR 45 cal. You need multiple rounds to ensure a good COM shot (see , you don't have a fucking clue what COM is).
Do you know the difference between a .45 straight through the heart as opposed to .9? Not a fucking thing. You know the difference between a lung shot with .45 as opposed to .9? Not a fucking thing. Lastly I am taking about .45 HOLLOW POINT and you suggested ball. Pft....dumbass
Stupid fucking idiot.
Nothing against 45 if that's someone's prefered cartridge of choice; but this 9mm bashing is pathetic and well articulated by your points.
Exactly, shot placement.
.45.. shot placement...about two feet over there over here, or there...each is going to kill the mutherfucker. And THAT's what it's all about.
Another shot? Fuck, I missed.
.45 does cause more damage all else equal, but it also doesn't shoot as flat. A 9mm with hollow points will git 'er dun. I'd rather have a 9mm with a good hollow point than .45 FMJ, but that's based on my research and cost. I've never actually shot a .45.
I've never actually shot a .45.
I found a new 1911 affecionado!
There is only a very small percentage of even the overweight American population that won't be scared off, if not outright stopped, by a well placed 9mm bullet. And for those that aren't stopped/scared off, that's the reason you typically have at least twice as many bullets in the same size gun..
In a panic situation you prolly won't 'well place' that single round. A .45 doesn't care. The military for suspect reasons handed the service pistol contract to Beretta in 9mm. We could argue 9mm vs .45 all day. I have owned both and give the nod to the .45. ymmv Then there is the .40.
...and then there are those of us who pull out the Thompson with the 50 round drum magazine. Surprisingly, no kick whatsoever.
Standard Disclaimer: Men and boys and the price of their toys...
S&W .50 pistol, the Hammer of Thor, first time son shot it, a bit of backblast caught me in the throat. I was standing twenty feet behind him. shrapnel hit me in the neck and damned near knocked me down. Son comes back, concerned, asking WTF, I'm holding neck, trying to find the pound of lead in it...he reaches up and pulls out sliver of shit from my skin. It was about two inches long.
I want one of those mother fuckers.
Colt .45 ACP in 1911....
HAMMER OF THE GODS!
1911 .45 ACP with Frangible Rounds...nirvana!
1970's Marine had to qualify with 1911 .45.
No lie, first time firing, I had no expectation of the kick...second round landed on Mars or the Moon.
Third through ninth landed within a quarter.
I have a 9 mm semi pistol and just got a 45 cal, and the 45 is actually easier shooting than the 9 mm. Kick is about the same, but has smoother trigger action so stays on target with multiple rounds.
For home defense use exclusively 45 cal Hollow points rolled on the thighs of Southern women for good luck which are then dipped in flesh-eating bacteria infested bayou water. Thereafter a shot in the pinkly toe is lethal and requires isolation precautions and a hazmat team.
EVERY round I have has been dipped in pigs blood. I anticipate using a thousand or so to relieve Islamists of their restrictions in life.
I have 2 Springfield Armory 1911 Range Officers. One 9mm and one .45 I am more accurate with the 45 at all distances that I shoot. But becase of cost, I shoot the 9mm more often.
I plan to buy a .45 acp rifle. I want something that I don't have to use multiple ammo. However I will try it out at 1,000 yards to see how it drops. Even if it goes to shit at a 1,000 yards, I'm still thinking that most of my use would be at less than 500 yards. More specifically, less than 100 yards as the porchmonkeys decide to infiltrate the area. From the roof, the line of sight is three hundred to one hundred yards.,.a .45 is a cannon compared to my .30 M-1. Like the M-1, but want something heavy and deadly. M-1 is what I shot the golfball with.
It's all about shot placement rather than the bullet anyway. That's why people still use their model 1911's they have a short sweet trigger pull and quik reset that no other gun comes close to.
Back in the '60's my official issue sidearm as an Infantry CO, was the dear old 1911A1, and I got pretty comfortable with it. A few years back, when I decided to supplement my rifle with a handgun for homestead protection, I wound up, after due diligence, with a Berretta 9FS and hollowpoints. The trigger pull could be better, but I probably just have to put more rounds through it, and it shoots straight enough for the first 100 feet, which is all I personally ask of any handgun (yeah, I know, long-barrel revolvers can be reasonably accurate out further than that); and I do like the Berretta magazine capacity and slightly lighter weight. I may go smaller, still with the 9mm hollow point - a SigSauer 290 or Kel-Tec P119 so-called 'pocket pistols', want to wrap my hand around one to see how it feels.
Probably the best handgun is the one you have in you hand, loaded and are familiar with, round and caliber secondary to familiarity and accuracy through practice.
Foreigners need not worry - I'm sure these are labeled for domestic use only.
Maybe they were quoting another source?
Don't know of any pistols that use clips...
Some of the Mauser 'Broomhandles' used clips:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Mauser_C96_M1916_Red_4.JPG
Clip is an older english term sometimes used for magazine , not meaning clip as in stripper clip , I said stripper.
http://www.minutemanreview.com/2008/09/clip-vs-magazine-lesson-in-firear...
I'm glad if the military starts using hollow points. If you're going to shoot someone, you want to put them down quickly. Civilian law enforcement already uses hollow points on US citizens.
THe meaning of words no longer matter.
See the Supreme Court's recent decisions for confirmation.
Time IS a magazine. Sometimes ZH is a clip. But if you complain too much I'm going to aim this metal tube with the bullet in it right at you.
Just kidding. Thanks for educating the uneducated. Where did the term "clip" enter the small arms vocabulary? Was it from the fast-reload cartridge holders for revolvers?
@Buckaroo Banzai
Same here. And I do get the same feeling whenever I hear America described as a DEMOCRACY, no it is not, it is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, or was...
Hollow points are more humane.
A single hollowpoint injury can often stop a threat (although far from "always"), thus leaving a single wound to be addressed and better odds of controlling bleeding and hence preventing hypovolemic shock, which is often the primary cause of death from a gunshot wound.
Ball ammo, particularly the 9mm variety shot from the standard issue US Army M-9, is like stabbing an opponent with a .355 diameter icepick.
First, it's going to take a lot of stabbing to bring a threat down in a short time.
Second, overpenetration will almost certainly occur as the FMJ has not expended all of its energy in the target.
Third, you now have to treat 4-5-6-7 or more icepick-like stab wounds, which reduces the odds of survival as controlling bleeding becomes impossible.
The author should learn about guns before posting such dribble.
they might use hollow heads too
One Nasty Fucking Bullet Head.
fortunately only the government will be allowed to buy them have to protect the police ya Know.
Long body armor....oh wait.
Collateral Damage - Definition: when the person we are shooting at survives and sues our ass. Solution: hollow points.
Collateral Damage - Definition: when the full metal jacket rounds we are using penetrate our target and kill an innocent civilian and the family sues our ass. Solution: hollow points, which are far less likely to kill behind the target.
Who cares? Issue flechettes for their scatterguns while your at it.
Come for the death. Stay for the destruction.
Amazing coincidence that the government tries to put in a ban on civilians having body armor, at the same time that they switch to hollow points. Body armor can stop some hollow points but is less effective stopping FMJs.
Pistol hollow points will not pass through almost, if not all, level II and III soft armor. As a rule though, anything, even a cube, travelling over 2100 fps will penetrate soft armor.
They don't obey the Bible or Constitution, so why expect them to obey the Geneva Convention protocols? And, as expected, now we all know the reasoning behind that huge order for hollow point bullets last year. I suspected this all along.
What are their "standard issue handguns" anyway?
Think the new contract comes from Smith and Wesson.
The old 9mm were pieces of junk.
Plus handguns are for Officers so I'm sure they're well aware of the law.
Don't really see the problem with using these rounds in a pistol though.
Range only out to 40 yards...hollow point can come in handy that close.
Tank Commanders use them too. "Last line of Defense."
Effective firing range 50 meters. Just was at the NRA / CMP Pistol Nationals at Camp Perry, Ohio. Targets were at 25 and 50 yards. Plenty of 10-Xs at 50 yards with the Beretta.
I'd rather have depleted uranium rounds over hollow points any day of the week.
Cool. Very penetrating. Where do you get those... Valerie Plume's house?
She shoots them outta her ass like so many wooden nickels.
Eric Holder's house. He knows the right people.
The pentagon missed a trick by omitting, "It's for the children" at the end of their statements.
I remember reading somewhere that during WWII, the German medics thought the Americans were using explosive bullets when they treated the wounds inflicted by the .45 calibre bullets, so destructive they were to human tissue and bone. There just doesn't seem to be any end to the hypocrisies and cruelties inflicted on the world by the MIC.
I just got a 45 cal. semi-auto pistal for the knock down power. It stands and delivers.
Potentially true back in the day, but modern day ammo doesn't see much of a difference. If you're using hollow points in particular, even 9mm wound cavities are very similar to 45. If you don't believe me, check out the recent studies done by the FBI on weapon recommendations for law enforcement.
The answer can be found in . . . The Box O' Truth.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-10-the-water-box-o-truth/
That was a good article, thanks for the link.
The Powers that be know their "ass is now on the line". I think this is to portect the elites and have NOTHING to do with military use, but for use on citizens. Like one commenter said, police already use hollow points. Flechettes aould be gnarly.
I think they are arming up. Hollow points can be "made" in a pinch. Takes a drill or drimmel tool.
Isn't .50 caliber heavy machine guns suppose to be illegal too? US never obeyed that rule.
Pretty sure a .50 cal doesnt actually have to hit you, just has to be close to do a lot of damage......so there's that excuse, you know wasn't actually aiming at you.
Or that's just a urban legend I heard
I've seen some sweet .50 caliber weapons at some gun shows. Also seen lots of military grade tritium scopes for long range night sniping. And seen lots of suppressors, too. All legal.
Can get most any of the above if can pass the background checks and get the permits for them where required. Of course, nowadays that also gives you a complimentary reservation in a FEMA camp. Turn your little rebel loose.
By suppressors I'm assuming you mean silencers? Not illegal. Haven't seen tritium scopes before, but tritium is an isotope of hydrogen that glows in the dark (which make excellent standard night sights).. not sure what good tritium scopes would do for night sniping as it doesn't light up what you're shooting at..
The US cares not for our own laws nor constitution - go ask the supreme pizza court. If they ever pretend to go along with someone elses law it is only because someone connected is making money from it.
The joke in the Army during my time was you aimed at the equipment the enemy was wearing, not him.
A .50 cal isn't illegal, it's how you use it.
For example, firing your .50 cal at a Japanese aviator flying his airplane directly at you is perfectly legal.
Using your .50 cal to gun down thousands of Japanese sailors floating around helplessly in the Pacific is sort of illegal, but I guess that only matters if nobody is looking.
IMA already stocked up on hollow points, green points, red tips, 12 guage rifled slugs, crossbow arrows, and sling shots coz every time the disbarred Kenyan lawyer in the WH calls for disarming white folk I run down and buy everything what's left in the armory after the hardcore rednecks have beat me to it. My legs are getting tired.
Had to build a new room for the house. Sum bitch took an oath and lied about it. Kenya believe it?
How's the US military going to protect London Pedophiles if they can't use illegal hollowpoints.
Be careful keyboard warriors!
There is a recall on some of the ammo out there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8XcVc_0ykU
Bankers cannot overthrow a heavily US armed country. Politicians are scrambling for cover.
Hollow point .223 ammo already being used in US combat theaters for years now (a minimum of 10 years).
I think you mean 5.56X45 NATO. Slightly different at the ball, and is loaded to much highr pressure, but I have seen it in an overseas armory.
You gotta check the rifle to make sure it's capable of military loads. If it is, then it will also shoot .223 Rem.
When every law is open to interpretation based on expedience of the moment there is no law.....
Dude.... as long as it isn't more likely to kill nearby civilians, fucking go for it. I hate these bullshit complaints of "Inhumane warfare." Are you literally fucking kidding me? What about warfare is supposed to be humane? Or symmetrical? War is war, and pretending it's something else is mental masturbation - makes you feel good but doesn't actually do fucking anything.
Pretending that war isn't about killing makes war more likely; please do whatever it takes to stop existing.
You can argue all you want about the US military and policy being too imposing. If you're arguing that our bullets are too good at killing, you belong in a hospital with a tray strapped to your mouth to collect your drool.
Edit:
Expanding bullets are far less likely to actually go through the intended target and injure someone behind them. That is a big reason so many CHL holders prefer to use them in self defense situations. Yes they are more deadly to anyone hit by them, but they slow down significantly if you hit what you're aiming at.
Also, I think it's really lame of ZH to post a picture of G2 RIP ammo in this post. That stuff is designed to look "cool." It's supposed to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd, marketed as a bloodthirsty uber round that simply isn't validated yet. Hollow point in this case will probably look far more like the innocuous Speer Gold Dot that simply does what it's designed to do.
I like this website, but this article is very subpar.
The image being posted is a new type of civilian fragmentation round, not a hollowpoint.
Hollow point ammunition doesn't have a higher "kill" rate than regular FMJ, but it does have a better rate of stopping power by mushrooming out and providing a full energy dump into a target.
Civilians and Law Enforcement use it. Military hasn't been due to hague, but it just doesn't make sense that the military can't use a defensive round that is completely common to the civilian defense sector.
Well, everywhere but San Francisco. SF just banned the sale of Hollowpoints within their city, which makes no sense. I guess they want people to only shoot through their targets?
If only that were the least ridiculous thing SF has tried to do. Appreciate the sensible post.
They are missing out on a lot of choices:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/hornady-critical-defense-9m...
Where does Geneva Convention stand on unmanned predator drones?
You see! No violation there!
The drones can now be armed with hollow-point missiles. Fewer wedding disruptions.
Also, one fucked up thing is that most countries got around that whole Hague convention by using Spitzer rounds in their rifles. Sure, the ammo is FMJ, but they look them with light tips so the rounds just tumble in a target: Much worse than hollowpoint, because your bullet turns into a meat grinder.
Use whatever works, not that it matters, the US isnt fighting a war to win its fighting the war to make war despite what the 'officials' say. Actions speak louder than words and though they feign incopitence the case is rare for anyone to make it to a high level and still be an actual moron.
Fancy hollowpoints? Sounds expensive.
Somebody is trying to squeeze another greasy, pork-laden spending bill thru the chain of command's shitter.
The TEA PARTY will protest and then quietly sign on the dotted line and say it was to "support the troops".
I don't see the issue. Who are we fighting that abides by 'International Protocol'? ISIS shoots prisoners by the hundreds in mass executions. They sweep towns for gay men and throw them off towers. They decapitate civilian captives to make promo videos. Are we only allowed to kill them with jacketed rounds?
A hollow point stays in the body it hits. It doesn't go through the body (or sheet rock) and kill the kid next to the target.
Now if you're saying our foreign policy is insane, and we've done much to arm ISIS - I agree. We have no idea what the fuck we're doing over there - but the problem is not the ammo in the rifles.
In breaking news there's been a huge spike in returning service men with massive debilitating internal injuries. And in unrelated news the US is unable to say were large amounts of missing ammunitions has gone
The US may violate a treaty it did not sign and is not bound to follow? This is news? What a waste of bandwidth.
If you ever find yourself fighting other people and there are 'rules' involved it is nothing but a racket.
if they are in combat and have to pull the pistol prob won't matter much anyway, they are toast.
That is not alwys true, though if you're down to only a pistol you are not in a happy place.
Got pariah?
Commenting on an article about what is essentially US intention to commit war crimes AKA crimes against humanity, upwards of 90% of the commenters can find nothing better to comment on than the feasibility of the plan.
You don't have to love Big Brother, but...
Lets test if first on John McCain, Dempsey, Ashton Carter and other fucking lunatics.
At least let them have a IIA vest...
You people act like your ennemies won't start using hollow point against you now that you use it against them.
My guess is that we have better body armor...
Was reading today's paper (AZ Republic) 7/13/2015 Page 9A with a copy of this:
http://www.startribune.com/hoover-dam-lake-mead-officers-getting-52-000-rounds-of-ammo/314418901/
The Bureau of Reclamation put out a bid in June for 41,600 rounds of hollow-point ammunition . . .
That's a one day supply of ammo at the practice range where I come from.
It's all just another $$$ pork project that TEA PARTY bowel-movement members will protest in public and sign off on in private.
The Hague Convention mentioned was from 1899 - well before the advent of modern surgical techniques and trauma care. So, despite their claim that the object of banning fragmenting ammunition was to minimize "inhumane injury", I believe the real reason was just the opposite and far more sinister. The purpose of using FMJ bullets is to injure, not kill your enemy. This necessitates far more effort on the part of your enemy to treat the wounded, effectively slowing them down and demoralizing them. If you killed them the enemy would have more resources to divert towards continued combat...
not quite.. back in the day.. a long time ago I made a few mercury filled bullets.. "Day of the Jackle" and they virtually explode at 200 yards and 1400'/s into very little bits, including the jacket (drilled out soft points in Brit. 303). The convention was to make sure that this wasn't done.. But Norway doesn't care and went ahead and developed the Roufous rounds (explosive cored) that can be had for sniper applications. It is all about the enforcement.. that doesn't exist for the armies that deploy these.
What a loaf of crap. War is an I inherently nasty and unpleasant undertaking. Pretending that the use of more "humane" bullets is somehow morally superior is just pure fantasy. As Sum Tzu recommends, avoid war if possible, and if not, use overwhelming force and every strategic and tactical advantage to make victory swift and decisive.
The DC US military is getting ready to battle their real enemy, the enemy of their tyranny and treason, the American people, and we are armed with hollow-points.
Liberty is a demand. Tyranny is submission.
As if any fighting force, foreign or domestic has a snowballs chance in hell against millions of millions of heavily-armed, highly-motivated, and very pissed off Americans.
My thoughts exactly.
If a few million motivated Vietnam peasants can bleed tyranny dry, then several million pissed off
Americans can sweep the house clean of tyranny.
Liberty is a demand. Tyranny is submission..
It is not what you can do, it it what you are willing to try.
'US simply ignoring international protocol...'
We live you die
or
In order that we live , you must die
or
We have the right to kill anyone becuz we are the champions - the homos
---- Freddie Mercury ---
"We Are The Champions"
We are the champions, my friends,
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end.
We are the champions.
We are the champions.
No time for losers
'Cause we are the champions of the world.
I've taken my bows
And my curtain calls
You brought me fame and fortune and everything that goes with it
I thank you all
But it's been no bed of roses,
No pleasure cruise.
I consider it a challenge before the whole human race
And I ain't gonna lose.
(And I need just go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the champions, my friends,
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end.
We are the champions.
We are the champions.
No time for losers
'Cause we are the champions of the world.
We are the champions, my friends,
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end.
We are the champions.
We are the champions.
No time for losers
'Cause we are the champions.
Wow, way to completely fuck with the intent of the laws. War is not supposed to be personal, you are removing soldiers from the battlefield and that's all that really matters. Killing them isn't required, just injuring or incapacitating.
Yeah I agree. Maybe they overbought too much stock and now they need a reason to get rid of it. On us.