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IMF Declares War On Germany: In "Secret" Report Lagarde Says Greece Will Need Massive Debt Relief
Update: Europe now looks to be in damage control mode. Here's Reuters:
- EU SOURCE SAYS EURO ZONE LEADERS KNEW OF LATEST IMF DEBT ANALYSIS FOR GREECE BEOFRE AGREEING ON THIRD BAILOUT TERMS
A divide between the IMF and Europe (read: Germany), regarding writedowns on Greece’s debt to the EU has been brewing for quite some time and recently returned to the international spotlight when, a few months back, the Fund indicated debt relief was a precondition for its participation in any further aid for Athens.
More recently, the IMF released a report on Greece’s debt sustainability just prior to the referendum. The timing appeared to be strategic and may have helped secure the "no" vote for Tsipras.
Unfortunately, the IMF didn’t appear to anticipate the PM’s complete capitulation and now, the subject of debt relief has again been put off, this time until Greece officially passes the new "deal" through parliament and legislates its terms.
Today, another "secret" IMF document on the sustainability of Greece’s debt burden has surfaced and not surprisingly, the Fund is once again pounding the table on a haircut. One is certainly left to wonder if the US (and its veto power) are pulling the strings behind the scenes and orchestrating "leaks" at opportune times. Here’s more from Reuters:
Greece will need debt relief far beyond what euro zone partners have been prepared to consider due to the devastation of its economy and banks in the last two weeks, a confidential study by the International Monetary Fund seen by Reuters shows.
The updated debt sustainability analysis was sent to euro zone governments late on Monday, hours after Athens and its 18 partners agreed in principle to open negotiations on a third bailout programme of up to 86 billion euros in return for tougher austerity measures and structural reforms.
"The dramatic deterioration in debt sustainability points to the need for debt relief on a scale that would need to go well beyond what has been under consideration to date - and what has been proposed by the ESM," the IMF said, referring to the European Stability Mechanism bailout fund.
European countries would have to give Greece a 30-year grace period on servicing all its European debt, including new loans, and a very dramatic maturity extension, or else make explicit annual fiscal transfers to the Greek budget or accept "deep upfront haircuts" on their loans to Athens, the report said.
The updated debt sustainability analysis (DSA) was sent to euro zone governments late on Monday, hours after Athens and its 18 partners agreed in principle to open negotiations on a third bailout program of up to 86 billion euros in return for tougher austerity measures and structural reforms.
"The dramatic deterioration in debt sustainability points to the need for debt relief on a scale that would need to go well beyond what has been under consideration to date - and what has been proposed by the ESM," the IMF said, referring to the European Stability Mechanism bailout fund.
European countries would have to give Greece a 30-year grace period on servicing all its European debt, including new loans, and a very dramatic maturity extension, or else make explicit annual fiscal transfers to the Greek budget or accept "deep upfront haircuts" on their loans to Athens, the report said.
It was leaked as German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble disclosed that some members of the Berlin government thought Greece would have been better off taking "time-out" from the euro zone rather than receiving another giant bailout.
The IMF study said the closure of Greek banks and imposition of capital controls on June 29 was "extracting a heavy toll on the banking system and the economy, leading to a further significant deterioration in debt sustainability relative to what was projected in our recently published DSA".
The latest IMF study said Greek debt would now peak at close to 200 percent of economic output in the next two years, compared to a previously forecast high of 177 percent.
Even by 2022, the debt would stand at 170 percent of gross domestic product, compared to an estimate of 142 percent issued just two weeks ago. Gross financing needs would rise to above the 15 percent of GDP threshold deemed safe and continue rising in the long term, the updated IMF study said.
Moreover, the latest projections "remain subject to considerable downside risk", meaning that euro zone countries might have to provide even more exceptional financing.
The IMF study also appeared to challenge the assumption by some European officials that Greece will be able to meet some of its financing needs from the markets in 2018.
"Borrowing at anything but AAA rates in the near term will bring about an unsustainable debt dynamic for the next several decades," it said.
Greece debt/GDP to reach 170% by 2022 vs 142% expected two weeks ago, and peak near 200% in next two years - updated IMF analysis
— Jamie McGeever (@ReutersJamie) July 14, 2015
As Greek parties agonise over Summit Deal, IMF debt sustainability update spells out: it cannot work without partial debt write-off
— Paul Mason (@paulmasonnews) July 14, 2015
IMF finally says what they think about Greece http://t.co/JWH2Mj9Nrm (via @ForexLive) pic.twitter.com/NnshywvgG8
— Fabrizio Goria (@FGoria) July 14, 2015
In other words, the IMF is now openly at war with Germany (and its sound money compatriots like Finland) over debt forgiveness, which futher underscores the split in Europe between the German bloc and the those who favored leniency for Greece, and, by extension, a relaxation of the doctrine of strict fiscal discipline that has dominated EU politics (in word if certainly not in deed in the periphery) since the onset of the European debt crisis.
Of course any debt haircut for Greece will only serve to embolden other periphery debtor states, especially those where Syriza sympathizers enjoy growing support ahead of elections. In short, if parties like Podemos in Spain perceive that Germany has blinked on debt relief they too will push for writedowns, something we outlined in detail after the last IMF "leak" in "Did IMF Just Open Pandora's Box."
* * *
Summing up the US/IMF message to Germany:
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bb germany, you are usa bitch.
Oh to be a German tax payer.
I am. Fucking sucks. I try to get the biggest refund I can, it all goes into AG and AU, and hopefully I can expedite this thing by a second or two.
Go Greek, dont pay.
What will it take for Germany to tell Obama to fark himself. Germans have been wussified.
Limited hangout.
OK, so let me get this straight.... 4-5 years ago when Greece owed about 100 billion Euros the answer was to give them more money to keep paying their debts. Now that Greece owes 300 billion Euros it's time for debt relief. Down to what? 100 billion Euros?
Europe: beating expectations ALL the way down.
All this shit just to avoid the inevitable. Assholes who knew they could never repay, borrowed from assholes who knew they would never be repaid and now instead of letting the assholes sort the shit out between themselves a whole new group of assholes thinks they have another solution. Anything to keep the status quo alive.
Why Germany Is So Uncompromising Toward Greece
Good cop, bad cop.
LaGarce: "Brioche anyone?"
(From a cartoon by Shanahan in New Yorker.)
Lagaard, the silver dagger comes bearing the NUMBer 7
Her burn is from that orb in heaven
She's as dull as it is bright
so it's all gonna be?
All right ;-)
https://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/sometimes-humor-is-the-only-...
All of this "news" is simply designed to prevent the mundanes from having any idea what is really going on. It is spreading misinformation to make our eyes glaze over and not care.
Do the oligarchs want us to be slaves? YES
Are they willing to do absolutely anything to make it so, and hold onto power and wealth? YES
Do they control the MSM? YES
So spread a few contradicting stories, and stand back and watch their media spread and debate them in front of the public.
Question: Do the slaves want to continue being slaves?
Unfortunate majority answer : YES!
I do not wish to be a slave for the record.
Did anyone else read the whole Reuters story?
Nice hack job ZEROHEDGE!
I would think that you would want your readers to know the EU finance ministers have had this report since Saturday! You quoted part of it why remove it from the story?
It was leaked as German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble disclosed that some members of the Berlin government thought Greece would have been better off taking "time-out" from the euro zone rather than receiving another giant bailout.
IMF managing-director Christine Lagarde attended weekend talks among euro zone finance ministers and government leaders that agreed on a roadmap for a new bailout. An EU source said the new debt sustainability figures were given to euro zone finance ministers on Saturday and were known by the leaders before they concluded Monday's deal with Athens.
The IMF study said the closure of Greek banks and imposition of capital controls on June 29 was "extracting a heavy toll on the banking system and the economy, leading to a further significant deterioration in debt sustainability relative to what was projected in our recently published DSA".
The majority actually said NO but noone noticed
What good if they said NO and continued to act slavishly?
Paralyzation thru analyzation.
Sloppyism through solipsism.
To whom the silver lady reports?
"IMF Declares War On Germany:"
Sounds eerily similar to an older headline from 1933 - "Judea Declares War On Germany".
Same old adversaries in the IMF, I guess.
IMF = US (financial arm of State Department)
Considering the above equation, I would say that Schaulbe is on his way out. If Merkel will insist in defending him, she'll follow as soon as it will be convenient...
That is freaky... because it is eeirily true...
Good Lord. Makes a person wonder where Wolfowitz was intended to fit in all this. Eh?
Just as well he was ousted - for all those other reasons, too...
They aren't (wern't) concered whether or not there was to be any repayment ...... they get their fees up front.
This is the real problem with the whole system, isn't it? Subprime loans, bundled MBS, GS cooking the books. The incentives for the people selling it, is to have product to sell. No incentive at all to be honest and make reasonably sure the deal is sustainable.
Link this stuff to performance and see how quick all this so called "liquidity" dries up. No one would sell shit.
This CDS crap has gotta be the worst. We were joking the other day about IMF pretending there's been no default. It seems like 10,000 unpunished scandals ago but remember fraudclosure?
One of the squares of homeowner litigation was that CDS paid off giant chunks of mortgages. They'd be getting froeclosed often by servicers (opertaing ultra vires as agent for undisclosed principal like MBS tranche xyz) and demand that in discovery. Servicers would motion for protective order and courts would grant ALL the time. Courts would declare homeowners "are not a party" to any of that so buzz off even if they discovered that themselves and presented in court. The fraud is so insidious it's simply too big to believe.
At the end of the day, AIG writing all that CDS paper they could never underwrite got bailed out at par! The problem for AIG's Greenberg was that Goldman's Blankfein tossed one right in his fanny and stole the bailout loot!
IMF is STILL pretending there's been no default LOL!
A comment well worth wading through. Well (if still confusingly) put.
More exact than my favorite "Whattamess!"
SOmetimes I get a little too excited ..lol. Sorry for bad typies.
Decisions are easy to make when you are making them about Other People's Money.
'Sure we'll loan you 100 billion...lets see my cut is.....hold on the calculators overheating..'
"A divide between the IMF and Europe (read: Germany)"
Should actually read "A divide between the IMF (Read Washington) etc...........
Wasington is concerned about Greece falling into the open arms of China and Russia and especially concerned about the impact on NATO and so, eventually, its ability to push Europe into a US-instigated war with Russia. This war would be fought on European soil and before that time would destroy the European economy with sanctions that do not impact The US.
So the fact that Germany is standing up to "The IMF", whilst on the surface perplexing, might result in the positive outcome of Europe developing a Foreign Policy independent of Washington and designed in the best interests of Europe?
The Greek "Solution" makes absolutely no finacial sense and, sooner or later, Greece will fail (May as well do it now, do an "Iceland", completely default and introduce the new Drachma) but my point is that there are much larger Geopolitical issues in play here also.
And behind all of the above: the big and M sided game of "Whose currency do you trust?" All fiat currencies are IOUs, so ultimately the question of trust is answered by who delivers the most value to the most users. Being worked out now.
I see some problems with your theory, philipat.
"Wasington is concerned about Greece falling into the open arms of China and Russia and especially concerned about the impact on NATO and so, eventually, its ability to push Europe into a US-instigated war with Russia. This war would be fought on European soil and before that time would destroy the European economy with sanctions that do not impact The US."
While Whashington is certainly worried about Greece getting too friendly with Russia, there is absolutely no way a Nato-led war against Russia wouldn't spill over to USA ground. We're talking nukes here, and Russia can bomb the USA.
Nato's first member is the USA. Do you think that the Russians don't know that? You think they wouldn't strike back at the USA? Sorry to break the news, but it's the first thing they would do, buddy.
We Europeans DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT want war with Russia. They've done nothing to us. The only ones who hate Russia are the USA. We, Europeans, will NEVER wage war against Russia, and I'm also talking for our so-called EU "elites". They are vassals and lackeys, yes, but they are not mad. Unlike the USA, we have suffered wars on our territory, and never want to see that again.
That's why, BTW, the EU/Nato militaries are a joke and won't get any better any time soon.
So, if the USA wants war with Russia, it will have to go it alone. That much I can guarantee.
In fact, Germany may be rebelling against the USA precisely because of its belllicose rhetorics and the sanctions, which are hurting the German economy to the sole benefit of the USA.
^ makes sense to me
edit - thinnk about how times have changed. My amateur, armchair guess is Germany would be fine with grexit, but it got shoved down their throats. Then they threw a tantrum and made the deal moar inflexible than it was. What caused Merkel to break down in tears while talking to oBama/Sarkozy? Then you've got the NSA spying and the deal with the gold. Germany sends it to USSA for safekeeping against the Russians...then can't get it back lol.
German intel probably knows exactly what happened to MH117.
No one is going to drop Nukes.
<< Greece Will Need Massive Debt Relief >>
... and my neighbor Jamal told me long ago, "size matters."
1+, Lea:
"We Europeans DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT want war with Russia. They've done nothing to us. The only ones who hate Russia are the USA. We, Europeans, will NEVER wage war against Russia, and I'm also talking for our so-called EU "elites". They are vassals and lackeys, yes, but they are not mad. Unlike the USA, we have suffered wars on our territory, and never want to see that again.
That's why, BTW, the EU/Nato militaries are a joke and won't get any better any time soon.
So, if the USA wants war with Russia, it will have to go it alone. That much I can guarantee.
In fact, Germany may be rebelling against the USA precisely because of its belllicose rhetorics and the sanctions, which are hurting the German economy to the sole benefit of the USA."
I would not have written it this way, and there are a few wrinkles in it, but it is this way. the most bellicose european at this moment is possibly our ZH collegue "Haus-Targaryen", but he talks this way because he is possibly from Texas or somewhere around it
we can't stand the bellicose rethorics, and prefer to look the other way whenever someone breaks that silly embargo, as long as it's not too much "in your face"
btw, the eurozone alone spends twice as much as Russia in armaments, the whole EU three times that, and our total of uniformed soldiers is around 1.5 million, for criminy
there is no such thing as a "rebellion against the USA", though. it's done more... quietly. like by dragging feet, letting that talk fly over heads, etc. etc. France, for example, even left NATO for quite a time
that does not mean that we like bellicose rethoric from Russia, or that we aren't concerned with territories changing sovereigntly, mind you. in fact, it pisses us mightily off, too
Lea, there is a huge difference between a vassal and a lackey, btw. Prince Philip of the UK is the first vassal of the Queen, for example, a status perfectly compatible with him being her husband, and the same relation exist between Russia and some other countries, like Belarus
if we were lackeys instead of "vassals", Washington would get more demands through, woulnd't it? Just think military spending, where the US MIC is so often frustrated how few new toys we want to buy. For so many here reading or watching "Game of Thrones", I would expect a better understanding of the words "vassals" and "lackeys". When you say "vassal", you talk about a military alliance and imply quite a lot of... honour, up to the point that it could be considered a... compliment
Ghordius, We ACTUALLY agree at the end of the day. It's actually Common sense?
Splitting hairs on words significance is fun, but the reality is that the entire EU banking system is bankrupt, and it was kept alive so far only through increasing debt and FED money (swap lines). You don't have the money to back-up your nice rhetoric... There is a master above Germany, and that master is starting to get pissed at you !
"Washington would get more demands through, woulnd't it?"
Ghordy, the problem is, this dynamic in your mind is missing a head & shoulders, which is why your analyses always fall well short of the mark.
How funny would it be IMF/DC/Nudelman got a big surprise for example, Germany leaves NATO! They've always wanted oil/gas from Russia and without the west pushing them around, they could pipe it right in. PRESTO!
What's become of Secretariat of State Nuland? Haven't seen her for a while.
SHe's making cookies in case Greece needs to be Ukrained.
I bet she just slams the oven door just to make those in the living room think the cookies were not made by Sara Lee. You can never trust those faux culs.
They better make those cookies from Colorado or Washington.
greece never got any money out of this bullshit. that "bailout" was given to the german banks to keep them solvent and shift the debts from private to public and on the taxpayer tab. that's ALL it did, nothing more, nothing less. they were fucked by banks, and they rightly were about to tell the banks to fuck themselves. if the banks had to eat that loss, they would go under and that would shatter the german economy.
Lagarde said before this was a debt jubilee year.
The money changers (the real ones running stuff - not private smaller banks) know that every so often in order to preserve their usury system, they must forgive all debt in order to restart their usury system from scratch. Otherwise some other far less profitable system and potentially UNCONTROLLABLE SYSTEM comes with violence.
It's mathematically impossible to ever pay back debt with interest. They know that.
You got most of it right, then you fucked up at the end. If the banks went bankrupt then the major wealthy investors should have taken a well deserved haircut. Germany could have recapitilized the banks under more sound and diligent management. The average German depositor could have been OK. The German economy would have managed and ultimatley prospered even more, without the socialism for the cronies. The bailout let Greece continue with their culture of tax evasion, inefficiencies and free money mentality, the bailouts and agreements allowed the wealthy Greeks to expatriate their money and allowed hedge funds to continue feeding the game, knowing they would continue to be given exit opportunities. Unfortunatley the average Greek like the average citizen everywhere had his head up his ass and was unable or unwilling to see what ZH has been reporting for YEARS. "Fuck All You Keynesian Clowns"
Sophie's choice...
Yes they kicked the can. When the collapse hits, it will hardly matter if you cannot repay 100 billion or 100 trillion. You'll still be toast.
OK, so let me get this straight.... 4-5 years ago when Greece owed about 100 billion Euros the answer was to give them more money to keep paying their debts. Now that Greece owes 300 billion Euros it's time for debt relief. Down to what? 100 billion Euros?
The International Money Changers have to keep Greece till September 2015 alive.
33 Things You Need to Know About September 2015 and the Monumental Event They Foretellhttp://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2015/07/33-things-you-need-to-know-abo...
She just marked down the value of ALL Spain, Italy, Portugal debt held by EU banks.
The end IS here.
Vlad, Angela here. We are almost there. I just gottah fuck this French moron Hollande and then I can ditch this shitshow. Yeah, we got support where we need it. You? Good.
hell, she just marked it down for _France_
that one is going to be a doozy...
I agree with Headbanger. This is a plate spinning disaster waiting to happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzkLq2cgXL8
As if Obama has anything to do with this. Wake up!
Germany did what it did for its own reaons.
Lenin, writing in 1916, on the morality of lazy Greeks refusing to repay industrious Germans:
From these facts Lansburgh draws the amusing petty-bourgeois moral of how unstable and irregular export trade is when it is bound up with loans, how bad it is to invest capital abroad instead of “naturally” and “harmoniously” developing home industry, how “costly” are the millions in bakhshish that Krupp has to pay connected with just thesesame loan which the borrower uses to make purchases from Krupp, or to purchase railway material from the Steel Syndicate, etc. But the facts tell us clearly: the increase in export is precisely connected with the swindling tricks of finance capital which is not concerned with bourgeois morality, but with skinning the ox twice -- first, it pockets the profits from the loan; then it pockets other profits from the same loan which the borrower uses to make purchases from Krupp, or to purchase railway material from the Steel Syndicate, etc.
On the sustinability of the Euro Zone:
We ask, is it "conceivable,'' assuming that the capitalist system remains intact -- that such alliances [e.g. the Euro Zone] would be more than temporary, that they would eliminate friction, conflicts and struggle in every possible form?
It is sufficient to state this question clearly to make it impossible for any reply to be given other than in the negative, for any other basis under capitalism for the division of spheres of influence, of interests, of colonies, etc., than a calculatlon of the strength of the participants in the division, their general economic, financial, military strength, etc., is inconceivable. And the strength of these participants in the division does not change to an equal degree, for the even development of different undertakings, trusts, branches of industry, or countries is impossible under capitalism. Half a century ago Germany was a miserable, insignificant country, as far as her capitalist strength was concerned, compared with the strength of England at that time; Japan was the same compared with Russia. Is it "conceivable" that in ten or twenty years' time the relative strength of the imperialist powers will have remained unchanged? Absolutely inconceivable.
And lastly, what to watch our for now (oh-oh):
in the realities of the capitalist system, and not in the banal philistine fantasies of English parsons, or of the German "Marxist," Kautsky, "interimperialist" or "ultraimperialist" alliances, no matter what form they may assume, whether of one imperialist coalition against another, or of a general alliance embracing all the imperialist powers, are inevitably nothing more than a "truce" in periods between wars. Peaceful alliances prepare the ground for wars, and in their turn grow out of wars; the one conditions the other, giving rise to alternating forms of peaceful and non-peaceful struggle out of one and the same basis of imperialist connections and relations within world economics and world politics.
Germans remember being bombed into oblivion at the end of the war while they were suing for peace/surrender. The asphalt in the streets was melted from the heat while humans and animals burned alive like crispy creams. Germany is an occupied country today, the conquerors never left and will remelt the asphalt if they deem it neccessary.
http://www.exulanten.com/bombinghell.html
They won't, for they can't.
Germany should just leave the Euro first. It was a French idea to begin with and did nothing for Germany but cause trouble.
It was neither French nor German. It was from the borderless nomads roaming the corridors of power. The EU was the bright idea of the early 20th century, border-averse socialist Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi. All of these control freaks are misfits with access to power. This is a 1926 magazine article describing the eventual federation of Europe. They were quietly planning the EU whilst being ever so careful that the population would not find out until too late. Clever or stupid? Hard to tell with psychopaths.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/world/97098/can-europe-federate-paneu...
The elites are so detached from reality that they think they can lie forever to get what they want and still expect things to work. BTW, isn't there a psychiatric definition for such thinking? The EU's founder should be a familiar name to everyone in the EU and yet he remains invisible. We are now only dealing with the end stages of distorted thinking that has been forced on millions of people. To truly understand the catastrophe, it's origins must be understood.
Kalergi wrote "Practical Idealism" and "PanEuropa" which became the blueprints for the transformation of the entire continent. The central banker crowd loved it becase it gave them full control of money and commerce without those pesky customs officials and border controls. Of course they put it on hold until after the upcoming catastrophic war. The EU leaders are all psycho.
ALL leaders are psychos!!!!!
Stupid French! I keed, I keed!
Destroy Greece and radicalize a large part of the EU population. At this point I'm for Greece signing their own slave papers since the endgame will be the complete destruction of the EU.......
NIEN! NIEN! NIEN! NIEN!
Yeup.
Germany is a colony. Anyone pissed at Germany due to this is misplacing their anger. Germany does what its told just like Greece did.
Get mad that TBTB instead.
The key is to make us all believe we own our property and our country, while accepting the fact that we have no control over them. We were lead to believe that we pay and empower our leadership to protect us, when in reality we find our primary need is defense from our leaders. They are the ones with a gun to our head, pay your taxes and shut the fuck up. They want us to believe they are listening to our every word and watching every action so as to intimidate us from speaking and acting against them...and it is working.
The fenced pathway narrows. Soon we will find ourselves in the chute for branding, castration or ground meat.
The best slave is a slave that doesn't know he's a slave.
The best slave is a willing and happy slave, being a slave to money without knowing it, can be fatal.
Grab that big cable and pull it from the back of your head.
Now that's amusing, I grabbed but hence, it was gone.
Change habits and change the game. Don't own R.E. Buy only what you need; don't charge. Off-load monthly expenses that drain $$$. Be frugal and teach your kids to be also. Live beneath your means.
DUH!
If this was The Hunger Games, Germany would be District 1 and Greece would be District 12.
And the former East Germany? Around a District 13 still? Or has it changed in the remotest (given Germany's "debt forgiveness" to rebuild the east) from being the shithole ii was at reunification?
Better than District 9. Prawns! Yikes!
Debt based monetary systems are designed for a Keynesian approach. They will fail no matter what, but will fail more quickly if you treat them as if they are sound money systems as the Germans are attempting.
Those dumb fukn central bureaucrat b*sturds.... they're fleecing the poor b*sturd Greeks to feather their personal accounts with more zeros.... it doesn't take a rocket science that after Greece, they move on down the line to fleece the rest of Europe, then Japan and then the good ole USSA.... sheesh.....
FUCK YOU, BANKSTERS!
Goal is clear and simple: make debt relief absolutely necessary by driving econ into the ground and agreeing with absurd demands.
I thought the goal was a one world currency? SDR's anyone?
your the only one commenting here that gets the big picture. all this other shit is the theater set in motion from a long time ago. destroy the old system to bring in the new. order out of chaos. when its time to pull the plug, the Quadrillion in Derivatives, unfathomable debt bubble will burst worldwide. then Depopulation by starvation, then they will show us the new saviour system. one world govt, one world currency. just look around you, its so obvious
sure, why not... the US dollar fraction of XDRs has been increasing since 2005... each XDR is now two-thirds US dollar... I guess that means the one world currency will effectively be US dollars... seems to be the trend anyway...
mark it zero
Yeah pretty much.
Germany has only itself to blame here. Sorry folks but that's just the facts here. Utterly DESTROYING GREECE TOTALLY fucks Gerany.
Nobody wants their shit anyways.
CLOSE SESAME.
When you must loan your customers the cash to buy your production, both are fucked.
This has been toast for years. This is simply an account reconciliation.
Oh, kinda like US foreign aid...3bln to country A who then comes back and buys 3 bln of military equipment?
The ENTIRE WORLD FINANCIAL SYSTEM is set up in that fashion.
Without issued credit THERE IS NO MONEY and NO ECONOMY.
We can point out many specific instances...American consumers and their Credit Cards as an example...
But it seems as if you have not got that fact through your thick skull as you pointed out a specific instead of pointing it out GLOBALLY.
We are fucked and this is the End Game. The Death and Debt Paradigm will end soon. It will kill Hundreds of Millions, if not Billions, GLOBALLY.
Most likely you will be included in that number as well as I will be. It is just the odds.
Game, set and match. Last one to leave the building, turn out the lights, will ya?
On the other hand, death is inevitable and we never know how much time we have, whether we're young or old, well or not. Maintaining perspective helps.
It began at the dawn of the industrial revolution, and salesman came to your door and convinced you purchase a fridge or a vacuum, then finally you said but i don't have the m oney to buy one, they politely said no sweat, we will lend you the money with interest so you enjoy the item now, and pay later. They reluctantly agreed, and just as the item was paid off, it broke down and required constant maintenance, to the point that now the bills started adding up and people went bankrupt over the new American dream of convinence from machines while breaking yourself to pay for the convience. The list of breaking down items never ended, nor did the bankruptcys.
Bankruptcies served as a cartharsis as it eliminated the debt.
The main problem is the ROLLOVER of debt...where the Interest is added to the Principal and thus leads to ever growing Interest Payments due...Financing Charges.
This has been happening for decades upon decades and we are approaching the point of when Institutions cannot function as the Budgets are consumed by Financing Charges.
Sooner or later this will stop as the benefits received from the institutions (Governments and Large Corporations) diminshes as they become more dysfunctional and fail to serve their intended mission.
We have been approaching that point for quite some time. The Ponzi Game is over and when the Social Security system fails there will be a massive revolt by the elderly, who do not receive what they have been promised, and by the youngsters who are footing the bill.
Medicare is insolvent in TWO YEARS and the ACA has failed to bring in the stop gap revenues to keep it alive. The youngsters will revolt as their NOW COMPULSORY Health Care costs continue to increase for services not yet rendered and never to be received.
Total collapse is forecast and assured as there is no way that this can continue.
Sure, but before all that cops, firemen, teachers and such all get slashed by law, then Mr. Bondy takes a big hit, next the Federal Reserve, IRS, probate courts and a host of others are doomed, then we move on to SS for those folks were first to pay in and are therefore the last to take out.
Greek debt has nearly tripled in last 5 years. Greece needs debt relief now. More debt is making situation worse. Greece now needs $25 billion just to make it through August.
The Greek Government currently owes 323 billion euros — almost three times as much as it did in 2010 when debt was 110 billion euros. The debt rose 213 billion euros, during 5 years of IMF-imposed “austerity” — the Greek depression.
But now we can relax as the Greeks have now committed to austerity, to reduced pensions and public employee pay and benefits.
No, really.
They promised.
yeah, of course reducing money circulation and going nuclear on Greece's consumption whilst simultaneously selling off every thing bolted down that can generate ANY bit of an income will surely do wonders to decrease the debt!
Too late. Greece folded. France is holding a 7 high and Hollande thinks he can bluff.
In this upside down world; "someone is saying just more austerity it's bound to work", just as in Japan, "more easing it's bound to work, eventually". It won't work, and no leader, no one is admitting it will NEVER work. It tragic-comedy to watch, like Sid Ceaser in the old movie...."It's a mad mad mad world"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r653bbiEWFo
Austerity, is the most mis-used term in history.... It is not austerity, it is cutting the social safety net. Retire at 57 hardly...... I believe what happened, is the Greek economy went underground, and folks stopped paying taxes, when they saw things for what they were.
Wondering how long it will take the Sheeple in the US who are pulling the wagon to figure out the same. I am way tired of seeing the goodies in the carts of the folks paying with SNAP.....
What ever happened to poor but proud like how I grew up?
Gatorengineer, you hit the nail on the head! I've been thinking the same thing for years and wondering why US taxpayers continue to pay their taxes to the despotic IRS. When will the American taxpayer revolt?
gatorengineer, I quit my job in January to start the arduous task of getting off the grid and because I could no longer allow myself to pay taxes and support this tyranny. My wife's and my combined income before I quit put us in the upper 10% of wage earners in the US. Now that our income has dropped by 60%, we can no longer afford to buy whatever catches our eye and it's a good thing. We've gotten closer as a family and do things like art projects, gardening, going for bike rides, and best of all....always cooking dinner together and eating at home. When we do splurge a little we enjoy it even more than we used to.
And the FSA doesn't piss me off as much as it used to because I'm no longer paying for it.
Not trying to brag because I know how many people are still wage slaves (like my wife, but she likes working, so good on her), just pointing out how much awesomeness there is in life that doesn't cost a dime.
Freedom, bitches.
Sold my business in 2013. I consult from home wearing my underwear and a pair of flip flops. Needless to say....I never make a video calll.
Good for you, Meat. Welcome to the bright side,
If the people of Greece had been reading ZH and stacking for the last 5 years, they could just LOL and walk away.
The fact that the solution is so simple makes this situation that much more depressing.
Francois Holllande pounds his fist in strong support for Ms. Lagarde.
Two recent events stand out as a clue to where France stands in terms of their allegiance:
Hollande obviously has no control over his country and does whatever he is told. Par for the course, historically.
Agreed. Fucking France will be easier than getting tickets to a Bobby Brown concert in Juno, Alaska.
Haha...you've started something now.
Fucking France would be easier than encouraging Hillary to hit the delete button on her emails.
The French have a chequered history. Its hit and miss.
Napoleon, the glorious revolution, Vichy, Charles de Gaulle, US/Israeli lackey
France is a jew run terrorist cesspool, I could't agree more.
Better get Biden in on the act - 'have to spend money to save from going bankrupt' Biden
Better yet, get Obama bin Biden on it
They'll blow everything that they touch
Greece's debt problems can only be resolved by inflation or charity.
Even if all Greek debt was forgiven today the country would still need to go to the markets to borrow more and would not be able to afford the market rate for shakey sovereign credit.
The IMF "acting" as the good guy?? Strange days indeed
Don't they always "act" as the good guy ?
It is only behind the scenes they show their true face.
The IMF is headquartered in DC. Greece is in NATO. Do you really think that NATO wants to lose Greece?
We are not privy to the conversations behind closed doors, but we can see who has what at risk.
I don't know what's so "good" about keeping Greece on the hook, getting the Germans to pay for all of it and keeping the flow of Euro bailouts straight into hands of the IMF banksters (Goldman Sachs) running the show. It's not as if the IMF loses out when it already has the monopoly on the global protection racket known as the SDR.
How real is the faultine between Germany and the IMF?
IMF only said it after the fact regarding Ireland. Namely that Ireland made a bad deal with the Troika for her bailout.
AJ Chopra, of the IMF, kept stchtum during Ireland's negotiation of it's bailout.
It was only after Ireland exitted it's bailout that AJ Chopra and his IMF buddies told what we all knew.
Did Ireland hold meetings with Putin, while openly having a finance minister tell the people to reject the terms of an EU bailout?
I think it has something to do with Greece holding meetings with China and Russia for a solution to its debt. The Greek citizens know this deal bends them over a barrel and will be definitely be sending the message to its legislators.
The US is the main funder of the IMF and I would not be surprised if they want to send the Greeks a message about debt relief so their legislators do not reject the deal then run to China and Russia for their bailout. The IMF seems to think it needs to contain the Greeks to make sure the Anglo (London then New York are the financial capitals of the world) stranglehold of the World's monetary system remains intact. It's like the containment of communism during the Cold War. We can't let a single domino slip and Greece knows it.
One should grant Greece a 100% haircut, to be effecitve immediately after Greece has left the eurozone.
One should grant Greece a 100% haircut, which becomes effective immediately after Greece has left the eurozone.
The punch line is that the "deal" has yet to be finalized.
IMF is no longer relevent in the EU. US inflence is waining fast as the EU turns to Russia and China.
We Just need more debt for debt relief.
"Look what I've got in my handbag!"
I'm breaking out the popcorn for this
Just print. See now, that wasn't so hard.
This is what I think would have been the best solution for Greece:
1. Default on loans from the IMF and debt to entities controlled by the EU.
2. Leave the eurozone (or rather be kicked out from it) but stay in the Union in order to continue to receive subsidies. The EU can seize these subsidies in order to pay for loans that Greece has defaulted on.
3. Ask Russian and Chinese banks to establish branches in Greece that accept deposits from individuals and companies.
4. Try to avoid deposit haircuts. Prioritize that. Cut pensions instead, at least temporarily. Deposit haircuts will have a devastating effect on the confidence in the system. Also keep in mind that pensions that have been granted in the past to people in the public sector have been outrageous.
5. Establish a modern tax collection system. See to that all citizens at least have a social security number. Establish a public real estate register. It´s too easy to evade real estate taxes. Greece should probably consider the option to hand over the tax collection to another country or perhaps The New development Bank (NDB). Let some retired taxation authority executives from Scandinavia run the tax authority. In Scandinavia, the tax authorities are good at sucking out tax from its citizens. Taxes are high in Scandinavia but people still pay their taxes. In Greece, people just don´t pay their taxes although they are lower. And that is a problem.
My impression is that the current solution is more focused on tying down Greece to the EU rather than reduce losses on loans to Greece and see to that the Greek economy starts working again. And that is because the EU is not about improving the economy and make the society work more smoothly and efficient. The EU is about consolidating power for the current mainstream parties and future similar parties and the current power élite and transform Europe into something similar to what Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi once outlined in Practischer Idealismus. Read what this asshole, Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi, wrote in Praktischer Idealismus and you will realize that his dream is gradually coming true in Europe today.
It also seems as if the Greek people are so stupid(?) that they are willing to sacrifice everything in order to get paid in euros. They seem to think that the only way maintain an acceptable living standard is to get paid en euros and suck out more money eternally from Northern Europe, including the poor Baltic countries.
It should be possible to let the Greeks keep bank accounts denominated in euros without a deposit haircut. But in order to accomplish that they would probably need some assistance from the outside. And future paycheques and pensions not denominated in euros would probably lose a significant amount of purchasing power for imported goods. Imported computers, cell phones and cars would become more expensive. But that would only reflect the nature of the Greek economy which is based on tourism. Greece has over the past decades been provided with artificial purchasing power that doesn´t reflect the nature of the Greek economy. The subsidies Greece has received have not been used for increasing the productivity of the Greek economy but for consumption. That´s not a sustainable solution. And in addition to that Greece has borrowed money to create even more artificial purchasing power. Over the past 30 years, that has not been a problem for the EU-leaders. They didn´t care and they don´t care. The only thing that matters is consolidating power and make something similar to Coudenhove-Kalergi´s dream come true.
It´s possible that Greece will get another debt relief, at the expense of Germany, Finland, The Netherlands and even poor Baltic countries, and stay in the Eurozone. I guess that is a way to persuade Greece to stay in the Eurozone. But there is no guarantee that they will get another substantial debt relief.
A far-too-intelligent solution... Good to read though.
The US has defaulted on Germany's demand for its gold. US and its puppet IMF are payin the price.
To be fair to the US, they would be happy to return Germany's gold ... if they had it.
Germany is pwned by US, they have Germany by the balls.
This is probably the only thing Angela can feel powerful about, pushing around some helpless Greeks, until Uncle Sam comes and breathes down her neck and she'll squeal like a good bitch and roll over. Just watch.
Unless her stubborn ways get the better of her, in that case, it means rebellion in the eyes of master and he will have to send in some more forces at Rammstein airbase and tap her blackberry on top of the tapping already going on.
You make a good point Brazen, but I think there has to be alot more to it than that. Merkel could just say "O.K. these sanctions against Russia are devastating our economy so we're lifting them, effective immediately, all other European nations would follow suit (NOT THE UK) ... and how many 'Troops' are there in Germany?
"It only takes 1 man with a gun to control 100 without one" Lenin.
There's 700 million people in Europe, the U.S. would have to have 7 million troops there to take control, I know, I know it's just an old quote from some dead communist, but he had a point, how many people could the occupying U.S. forces kill before they themselves were torn limb from limb?
...It's a mute poimt to begin with really, no matter how many U.S. Marines, Army, Navy or Airforce are positioned in Europe they would NEVER win a battle there against the European peoples, and I don't think even Obuma, McCain, Bush or Billary are THAT stupid (Maybe soome of the AIPAC, Sheldon Adelson ring kissers are!) but it would NEVER materialise...
My point is that it isn't the threat of military that these Euro-fools are scared of....So what is it?
It could be financial, or something that threatens their project's credibility. What else would scare paper pushers? I don't know, alot is happening at once to digest.
Down south they are facing a rebellion, a financial black hole and a refugee crisis. Now they themselves are divided and old tensions are re-surfacing. Then there is the credibility crisis that they are showing the world.
America must be pissed off that its not the Russians or Islamists that are ripping Europe apart, but the Eurocrats themselves. Then there is Congress who want their equity portfolios to keep going up, but events in Europe are not really helping.
The Unknown... Oh Yeah, and ISIS.
The Germans could eliminate ISIS any time they want.
All they have to do is tell the CIA to stop paying ISIS's salaries or they will leave NATO.
I don't know if we should be mad at the bankers. They are the only mechanism that seems to check government growth.. Governments have become crony communities that spounge off their populations like ticks. They grow fatter, deliver less, and enforce themselves on populations like mafiosos. A banker says pay me, or we won't give you more money. People think they are being harsh. However, if these governments are not forced to become smaller, they will grow until the host nation dies from lethal doses of crony fascism. Maybe bankers are just like chemo for government. Nasty medicine, but necessary for the long term existence of the host nation.
Bankers == Government == MIC. Just FYI.
The MIC want to maintain power. All three need eachother, but the dance of debt becomes destabilizes the country. Eventually you almost always end up with revolution or MIC sponsored Coups...
And now you know if "we should be mad":
Aid to the financial sectorBetween 1 October 2008 and 1 October 2014, the European Commission took more than 450 decisions authorising State aid measures to the financial sector. The bulk of this aid represented guarantees on liabilities. However, Member States have not actually used (implemented) all the aid approved. The guarantees and other forms of liquidity support peaked in 2009. The crisis intensity has receded in many EU countries since, and the outstanding amount of liquidity support dropped significantly in 2013.
Guarantees on liabilitiesBetween 1 October 2008 and 1 October 2014, the Commission authorized a
total aid of EUR 3 892.6 billion (29.8 % of EU GDP in 2013) for guarantees on liabilities. This helped to establish confidence on the financial markets while financial institutions have effectively used less than a quarter of the amount approved. The outstanding amount peaked in 2009 at EUR 835.8 billion (6.39 % of EU 2013 GDP), and has decreased since. In 2013, outstanding guarantees amounted to EUR 352.3 billion (2.7 % of EU 2013 GDP). (See more information here).
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/scoreboard/financial_economic_crisis_aid_en.html
Poor people around the world will starve .... because Greece borrowed too much .... of the world loan pie .... for BMWs .... so who are the real victims of Greek greed .... sub-saharan kids .... 45.71 Euros will buy several gunny sacks of oats ? (edit: 320bn Euros/7bn Peeps = 45.71 Euros per Peep)
WTF!
I logged in specifically to let u know u are a retard.
You are a retard.
According to the IMF estimates, crisis-related losses incurred by European banks between 2007 and 2010 are close to €1 trillion or 8% of the EU GDP. Between October 2008 and December 2012, the Commission approved €591.9 billion or 4.6% of EU 2012 GDP in state aid measures in the form of recapitalisation and asset relief measures. If we include guarantees, this figure would amount to €1.6 trillion or 13% of EU GDP (Commission) for the period 2008-2010 only. See IP/13/1301.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-297_en.htm
Yes, I always had a feeling that both Mr Tsipras and Ms Merkel are under attack from the same so called investors. I would really want to know which set of individuals IMF really represent. And, at this moment, seems like no other than zerohedge is resourseful enough to put it together.
The death of Capitalism continues.
http://just-a-thought-from-thinair.blogspot.com/
Amazing when Oligarchy interests fall out! IMF is the financial hit man for Pax Americana, run by the French FOUR times since the Monetary Sin of the West became : our money your problem Friedmanian mantra, aka 1971 BW revoke.
Jacques de la Rosière, Michel Camdessus, DSK and now Lady lagarde are 4 distinguished technocrats that serve that common heritage to which France bowed definitely when Dear Henry put the world before le fait accompli : petrodollar recycling à gogo via "off limits" TBTF banking in London city. The great fiat recycling game began in earnest.
Jacques de la Rosière went one step further : He cut and pasted the US IMF/FED model for Françafrique CFA monetary system when he imposed that ALL surrogate African nations --benefitting from a military guaranty for their regimes in their country, and in return allowing france to scam them of the commodity reserves; notably oil in Gabon/Congo regions and coffee and wood in Ivory Coast and Cameroun; --- a total cut and paste job of what Dear Henry had imposed in post 6 day war ME oil patch-- would be based UPON the condition that every nation held 50% of their monetary collateral in French Banks !!
The CFA regime in Africa obliged the newly independent and militarily dependent crony regimes of Françafrique to suffer the same asset recycling constraints as the IMF/FED tandem imposed on the Arab petromonarchies via the petrodollar recycling mechanism !
So our distinguished French technocrats have a long pedigree of back scratching the US scions and playing the same screwy financially fancy games ad vitam aeternam.
Now Lagarde, who as IMF chief benefits from a privileged lender position of NEVER having to give a hair cut to a borrower since the inception of the IMF (multilateral in name but US controlled by its institutional nuts since day 1)-- at best stretching out the debt to increase the interest slavery status of the borrower nation (the typical hitman strategy) -- is telling the ECB and Mutti running the debt cabal of EZ : You guys have to take a haircut but I won't as you are gonna destroy world finance if Mutti keeps saying Nein, Nein Nein...
In that, she repeats the Obama FED line, those who pay her salary; just like they did for Jacques de la Rosière.
Mutti now has a big problem : Hollande wants EZ solidarity to save the political cum monetary alliance and IMF/FED wants Mutti's hold on EZ to be weakened as geo politically they are acutely aware that Germany can go her own way if the Euro collapses and SOuth Europe is ruined.
When Oligarchy thieves fall out...
Always astute.
The battle between IMF (USA) and Germany is not about Grece economy, they don't care about Greek people, it is about Nato (USA) loosing Grece to the Russian and the 3000 German company losing business because of the USA sanction against Russia
Greedy Greeks didn't care about the really poor of the world .... when they were slopping swill at the world loan trough ! Vain beggars stingier than Algore !
How many hungry people could the worlds military expenditures feed?
Interesting thought. Thanks for that!
More than just losing Greece.
US dominance relies on having economic dominance (petrodollar, SWIFT, etc.).
By the "US", I mean the ruling higher circles of power.
The US doesn't want the EU to fragment. It rightly fears GREXIT could begin to unravel the EU entirely. Some are already contending that a German exit could benefit Germany. The US doesn't want that discussion.
(How can the EU continue to be presented as a wonderful deal for Ukraine?)
But you are correct. US and European interests differ. Individual nations within the EU have differing interests. How can it all be held together to serve US interests first?
The US would like to exercise economic dominance through ObamaTrade (TISA and T-TIP in the EU) and (TISA and TPP in Asia). Those agreements with the EU are in the works.
Can (local) national interests be suppressed long enough to establish greater global organizational controls by the US?
Maybe they need to start paving all roads to head downhill. It's easier to get more distance when you kick the can.