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How Student Loans Create Demand For Useless Degrees
Submitted by Josh Grossman via The Mises Institute,
Last week, former Secretary of Education and US Senator Lamar Alexander wrote in the Wall Street Journal that a college degree is both affordable and an excellent investment. He repeated the usual talking point about how a college degree increases lifetime earnings by a million dollars, “on average.” That part about averages is perhaps the most important part, since all college degrees are certainly not created equal. In fact, once we start to look at the details, we find that a degree may not be the great deal many higher-education boosters seem to think it is.
In my home state of Minnesota, for example, the cost of obtaining a four-year degree at the University of Minnesota for a resident of Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Manitoba, or Wisconsin is $100,720 (including room and board and miscellaneous fees). For private schools in Minnesota such as St. Olaf, however, the situation is even worse. A four-year degree at this institution will cost $210,920.
This cost compares to an average starting salary for 2014 college graduates of $48,707. However, like GDP numbers this number is misleading because it is an average of all individuals who obtained a four-year degree in any academic field. Regarding the average student loan debt of an individual who graduated in 2013, about 70 percent of these graduates left college with an average student loan debt of $28,400. This entails the average student starting to pay back these loans six months after graduation or upon leaving school without a degree. The reality of this situation is that assuming a student loan interest rate of 6.8 percent and a ten-year repayment period, the average student will be paying $326.83 every month for 120 months or a cumulative total re-payment of $39,219.28. Depending upon a student’s job, this amount can be a substantial monthly financial burden for the average graduate.
All Degrees Are Not of Equal Value
Unfortunately, there is no price incentive for students to choose degrees that are most likely to enable them to pay back loans quickly or easily. In other words, these federal student loans are subsidizing a lack of discrimination in students’ major choice. A person majoring in communications can access the same loans as a student majoring in engineering. Both of these students would also pay the same interest rate, which would not occur in a free market.
In an unhampered market, majors that have a higher probability of default should be required to pay a higher interest rate on money borrowed than majors with a lower probability of default. In summary, it is not just the federal government’s subsidization of student loans that is increasing the cost of college, but the fact that demand for low-paying and high-default majors is increasing, because loans for these majors are supplied at the same price as a major providing high salaries to its possessor with a low probability of default.
And which programs are the most likely to pay off for the student? The top five highest paying bachelor’s degrees include: petroleum engineering, actuarial mathematics, nuclear engineering, chemical engineering and electronics and communications engineering, while the top five lowest paying bachelor’s degrees are: animal science, social work, child development and psychology, theological and ministerial studies, and human development, family studies, and related services. Petroleum engineering has an average starting salary of $93,500 while animal science has an average starting salary of $32,700. This breaks down for a monthly salary for the petroleum engineer of $7,761.67 versus a person working in animal science with a monthly salary of $2,725. Based on the average monthly payment mentioned above, this would equate to a burden of 4.2 percent of monthly income (petroleum engineer) versus a burden of 12 percent of monthly income (animal science). This debt burden is exacerbated by the fact that it is now nearly impossible to have student loan debts wiped away even if one declares bankruptcy.
Ignoring Careers That Don’t Require a Degree
Meanwhile, there are few government loan programs geared toward funding an education in the trades. And yet, for many prospective college students, the trades might be a much more lucrative option. Using the example of plumbing, the average plumber earns $53,820 per year with the employer paying the apprentice a wage and training.
Acknowledging the fact that this average salary is for master plumbers, it still equates to a $20,000 salary difference between it and someone with a four-year degree in animal science while having no student loans as a bonus. Outside of earning a four-year degree in science, technology, engineering, math or, accounting with an average starting salary of $53,300, nursing with an average starting salary of $53,624, or as a family practice doctor on the lower end of physician pay of $161,000, society might be better served if parents and educators would stop using the canard that a four-year degree is always worth the cost outside of a few majors mentioned above. Encouraging students to consider the trades and parents to give their children the money they would spend on a four-year college degree to put a down payment on a house might be a better use of finite economic resources. The alternative of forcing the proverbial square peg into a round hole will condemn another generation to student debt slavery forcing them to put off buying a home or getting married.
Loans Drive Overall Demand
The root of the problem is intervention by the federal government in providing student loans. Since 1965 when President Johnson signed the Higher Education Act tuition, room, and board has increased from $1,105 per year to $18,943 in 2014–2015. This is an increase of 1,714 percent in 50 years. In addition, the Higher Education Act of 1965 created loans which are made by private institutions yet guaranteed by the federal government and capped at 6.8 percent. In case of default on the loans, the federal government — that is, the taxpayers — pick up the tab in order for these lenders to recover 95 cents on every dollar lent. Loaning these funds at below market interest rates and with the federal government backing up these risky loans has led to massive malinvestment as the percentage of high-school graduates enrolled in some form of higher education has increased from 10 percent before World War II to 70 percent by the 1990s. Getting a four-year degree in nearly any academic field seemed to be the way in which to enter or remain in the middle class.
But just as with the housing bubble, keeping interest below market levels while increasing the money supply in terms of loans — while having the taxpayer on the hook for a majority of these same loans — leads to an avalanche of defaults and is a recipe for disaster.
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The best part about this whole financialization of the Edjumacation system is the debt slaves it has created. If you can't land a yob within 18 months out of college......... you're double plus phucked and your only "solution" is to get back on the debt hamster wheel and go for a few more years of dumbing down indoctrination.
Taking out a student loan and getting four free years to learn rap music appreciation is easier than facing reality. It is just kicking the can down the road. Isn't that what the President, banking system, Congress, and everyone else is doing?
Gender studies.
I can't believe that anyone could keep a straight face and say, "I am willing to borrow a boat load of money to pursue an education in such a vital subject."
That is almost the definition of arrested development.
BTW, I am a female and can't quit smirking at the very thought of "gender studies".
The whole college graduates make an average of $1 million more than non-college graduates is extremely misleading. It's not the degree that gets college graduates more money in the long run, its their character.
The non-college graduate group includes high school dropouts, convicts, and people who don't assert themselves.
The college graduate crowd has people who are more focused, hardworking, and at least average intellegence. They would have thse characteristics with or without that college degree. They could get a four year head start to their career, without incurring the debt.
I don't have many regrets in life so far, but my biggest regret was going to college. That's where my the money from my Scent Savers sales goes to...paying down my debt.
Can't wait 'til the day I'm no longer the banks slave!
That was subtle.
The degrees may or may not be useless.
That point is debatable.
However, there is one point that is not debatable.
The administrators are not useless.
Without them, the degree would be impossible.
hugs,
Vice Chancellor for Student Success
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Vice Chancellor for Education! Now!
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This article also misses another problem with federal student loans. Federal Student Loans allow anyone to get a loan. That means anyone can 'afford' to go to school. Because of this, schools could raise their rates and the kids could still 'afford' it because they would get appoved for the loan. So the student loan programs that 'were designed to make school affordable for everyone' has made it unaffordable for almost anyone.
High school dropouts & 'Convicts' are the ones who mostly work in the trades. One of the reason they do is because a conviction for a serious misdeamenor let alone anything classified as a felony that shows up on a background check (92% of corporate employers do them) is a show stopper. Those in the trades now make at least $30 an hour.. A dollar is a dollar and but the former is the reason why most parents in white middle class families don't want their kids going the route of going into the trades
The brains of the trades are still smart whites. The labor is Hispanic. Numbnuts, dropouts and ex-cons generally don't have the work ethics or character. They are not wanted on the job. They cannot compete with Hispanics. Slowly, but surely, the brighter Hispanics are starting to get licenced and are running their own shows.
The numbnuts are selling drugs and petty crime, or finding a way on the dole.
I Truly can't believe how fucked up things are.
I am in the "bidness" and spot on NP. Right now what you do is find one person (be it a legal hispanic or any citizen) willing to hire illegals on a cash basis, then you 1099 that individual, and you have a highly motivated workforce that works for below average wages plus you skip the 20-30 % burden that comes with placing people on payroll. Shortly by doing business this way you will also will be able to skip the Obamacare penalty if you would happen to employ 50 or more workers. What will be interesting to see if the shake out that will happen should all the illegal workers be given amnesty. What percentage will go to work for existing businesses, what percentage will work for newly created legal worker startups and what percentage will still choose to work for cash to avoid paying the taxes?
Exactly how it's done.
I think the main reason why most parents want their kids to go to college is because that's they have been told their entire lives that college=success. If you repeat a lie long enough, it will be mistaken as truth.
I do agree that there are some dropouts and convicts that are very good workers. But my point was that all the lazy, f***ups are included in that group.
If I have kids, I will not give push them to geta degree. I will show them how much interest and prinicpal I've paid in my loans.
Four Children, one family. Who do you think earns the most fiat annually? The age spread is no more than 7 years between them, and none are younger than 39 or older than 47 - they are all caucasian.
Child #1 graduated High School - no futher academia completed.
Child #2 dropped out of High School in Grade 10, went on to receive a High School Diploma from the Department of Defense. Later indebted $12,000.00 on a computer technical degree.
Child #3 dropped out of high school in Grade 11, went on to achieve a GED. Later completed a Bachelors Degree in Psychology while incurring $171,000.00 in student debt.
Child #4 graduated High School. Just about to complete a Bachelors Degree in Psychology and pursue a teaching career. No student loan debt due to government assistance.
I guessing ZH will pick Child #1 or #2.
You can't be a teacher or Psychologist with just a Bachelor and you need the Masters in Teaching to make the Good Money unless you have the best personality in the world.
#1 might have his own business, so we have to ask about that. And even mechanics get advanced class room time and the mechanic degrees.
I have to put the money on #2.
Wow, that's pretty darn good, you're correct - how'd you do that? :-)
Whatever. I won't even hire anyone who ever stepped foot in a college.
You get one of three types,
1. The Deadwood- he will spend more time and energy trying to get out of work than he would have if he would have just did it.
2. The We Oughta- he's the little dweb who keeps telling you how you ought to be doing things in a sucessful business you have ran and built up from the dirt for 40 years, and the third type I like to call
3. The Protractor- He's got an angle on the place-the little fucker after about 6 months has to be reminded that this is'nt a freaking partnership.
I left college after 4 years, BA Accounting and never used it other than stock research or looked back. I learned right quick that accounting was just counting other peoples money, I figured I would be happier counting my own damn money. Went on to be self made from the school of hard knocks. I tried and failed at 4 different things before I found a couple that worked. College for me personally was the biggest waste of 4 years I was ever a part of.
I had zero diplomatic or political skills but i did have two things.
I can read a man like a book, and after a few minute conversation I can tell half his life story to him. And, I can take information from all kinds of different sources, some even seemingly irrelavant and see the big picture in ways most can't. I it was'nt for those two I would have starved to death. Well, that and I can out negotiate the tightest skin flint on planet earth,but that was just a necessity as there was a time I did'nt have it to give him, but he did'nt have to know that.lol.
I don't think you should hold it against someone for haing a degree. I also don't think you should require a degree to hold a position. For me the decision to go to college, wasn't really a decision at all. I was just told to I needed to go to school after graduation. I was always a free thinker, I wish I would have questioned that. I realized when I got into my major (second year), but at that point I had already 'invested' too much money to cut in run.
With that said, if someone has a masters degree in the last couple years that they paid for themselves (not themilitayr or an employer), then I would question their decision making.
Oh, I don't hold it against anyone, Ive got one mesef, I hang the Diploma upside down in my office.
Its just the nature of my work, I need someone with streetsmarts thats fast on their feet and can think faster. I don't need a conformist information container that's a follower that has been told he is a leader. I want someone to think for himself OUTSIDE the box.
Some decades ago, I was told to NOT trust anyone who has TWO 'first names'. People like 'Boy George', or perhaps 'Lamar Alexander'.
The 'edumacated' ones probably STILL refer to 'degrees' as 'SHEEPSKINS'. They went out and wrangled a SHEEP, and managed to OVERCOME it, and proudly hang the SHEEP'S SKIN in their 'drawing rooms'.
Of course, only MANLY MEN (and 'MAN'S MEN') get the honor of wearing 'pocket protectors' (and framing certificates of 'achievement' on their walls).
What are you trying to tell us? Are you saying that the paper that the college diploma is printed on is worthless? HELL, it's worth WAY MORE than FEDSCRIP (I can cut it up into FOUR parts; each one EASILY as large as a single fiat currency note). NO, REALLY. I actually tried this experiment...
If an upside-down diploma is your idea of 'decoration', I think you are 'decoratively challenged'. May I reccomend WB7's fine art prints; or Dees illustrations, as an alternate?
Whenever coming across a piece of certification paper on a wall, I think "this guy has to advertise that he got certified... Great..."
I purchased a fine art print from WB7, would recommend others to 'invest' as well. With my current workload, I haven't gotten the chance to frame and hang up the picture and send a picture of that to him. Apologies, WB - you'll get it someday soon. :-)
WB7 - Free Fall
So you wouldn't hire yourself?
Would I hire Me? Absolutely not! What are you insane? Never, Ever hire a guy like me.
And there's no fuckin' way I'd ever pick myself up hitchhiking.
Yes. I graduated in 2009, in the heart of the recession. Many in my class went on to graduate schools because facing the real world was too depressing.
I was all set to join the military to get some benefits to help with loans and get 'free' school. Then they stripped those benefits and my worldview changed. Thanks to Dr. Paul, of course!
Yes. I graduated in 2009, in the heart of the recession. Many in my class went on to graduate schools because facing the real world was too depressing.
I was all set to join the military to get some benefits to help with loans and get 'free' school. Then they stripped those benefits and my worldview changed. Thanks to Dr. Paul, of course!
The goal and the plan.
Those with the bullshit degree in mind is to get laid and party. Woem who shunned the so called geeks are stupid or smart?
Overheard AT THE FRAT PARTY:
'Hi, babe! What're you studying?'
'Well, I'm minoring in Economics and Political Science concurrently, but I havent decided on my Major yet , but I'm looking at a Major in Advanced Drone Piloting.'
'OOOH! That's so, um, SEXY! Do you wanna fuck me?'
The glitter in her eyes is the sparkle of the avarice for gold. Green eyes in a woman are a weakness of mine...
I want to be a Central Banker when I grow up, then I can just print my own money and front run information in the "markets"; I'll buy rumors and sell news, oh it'll be grand! I can funnel fiat to my chosen friends, the
winners of the venture capitalist/private equity world, who can buy real things with strips of cotton with green ink on it! Alchemy, pure alchemy! Now if I can figure out how to get in the Ivy League click. I reckon I could
add a berg or fein or some such to the end of my name, that'll get the ball rolling anyway.
The joke is on the morons who actually trade their labour for increasingly paltry amounts of those FRNs.
'Phuque Imanutjahbstein'!
Let's just take you to The Valley, and do a makeover. We think you need a new avatar name.
How's 'Barry Soetoro' work for you?
Get in touch (you Meshuginah).
Sincerely,
Nancy Pelosi(berg)
The problem is no jobs. It is not people getting degrees.
Enough with the attacks on people trying to train for work. They are going into debt for training that would have been provided by employers in the past.
The article's problematic premise is that the worth of college education should be simply about job training for the most profiteering employers, finance, war merchants, Goldman Sachs, and Monsanto.
The possibility that art, music, forestry, animal science, history, philosophy, anthropology, etc.
can support a more tolerant and humane world, and a better relationship with all its inhabitants is instead declared "useless".
The chief flaws in higher education today result from the increasing subordination of education
to the myopic goals and purse strings of wall street and war street.
I reckon it's all about how important society deems you. I hold sanitation workers in higher esteem than professional athletes (well except for bull riders, and maybe MMA folks, but you get the idea), but society as a
whole does not. So we see teachers, policemen, social workers, etc.. in lower paying jobs even though their contributions are, imo, much more. But hey, whatcha gonna do? LLoyde Blankfein just became a billionaire.
How many teacher's assistants could that kinda money employ?--plowing the money back into the virtuous circle, rather than being ratholed in the Caymans or Switzerland? But teaching kids isn't God's work, that's
,evidently, shitting muppets out of their labor. Damn, I'm sounding like a socialist.
We could learn a lot from the Menonities, Amish, etc. They separate themselves from the diversity of society and all the atrocious behavior that comes along with it. Yet, they still happily conduct commerce and trade with us. I think we should have separate communities; abandon the forced governmental desegregation and diversification and let people go where they wish. My bet is that most (not all, but most) people will lean toward associating with and living amongst their own race, ethnicity or religion. A smart business owner will gladly continue to maintain ties with other communities, however. Arm the people so that they have a last defense against being exploitated by neighboring communities. Only then will we have a humane world. Art, music, forestry, animal science, history, philosophy, anthropology, etc., has lead us to the mess we're in now and it will not fix it.
automaton
so, art, music, forestry etc. has "lead us to the mess we're in now", therefore
to fix it all, we need an population uneducated in those such allegedly 'useless' pursuits,
and whose "commerce and trade" is conducted by "smart business owners" who
will refrain from "exploitation" because their cloistered and "separate communities"
will be homogeneous.
In short, a small world where ignorance will be bliss,
and commerce within and among "communities" will be ungoverned.
The point is you don't need to go into $100,000 debt and sit in a classroom for four years to learn about music, art, history, or cultures. There are public libraries for that. We certainly don't need 1,000,000 new debt slave graduates with those degrees each year.
You are correct
to recognize the value of (no user fee) public libraries,
and the shame of making students become debt slaves,
but fall short in recognizing the value of shared learning and direct exposure to experts
in public schools and colleges.
Our manufacturing, for the most part, is gone. We still crank out a lot of stuff, but it's very mechanized. The Chinese bought whole companies, shut them down here, and moved the equipment to China. No one becomes a machinist anymore. All our "industry" seems to be either writing code for a web based enterprise or working for Uncle Sugar, either spying or building weapons systems.
Is there even a shipyard in the US that does not depend on warships?
And these industrial type jobs require support and infrastructure to function.
It's bizzarro.
Average plumber earns less than $27 per hour? It's over $100 where I live.
Crazy. How much college do you need to be a plumber these days anyway? If you look into getting a "skill", you often find you need to pay the local community college or university to get CEU's and a certificate of completion for apprenticeship now. It's thousands of dollars and you need student loans to do it.
When I bought my house in the California foothills, it needed a little work, including a little plumbing in the kitchen (a line to the icemaker, that sorta thing).
I had a client. A plumber. He did the work in 20 minutes. Charged me 75 dollars.
Seventy-five dollars, Louie!?! For 20 minutes work? I'm a lawyer, Louie, and I don't make $225 an hour!
He says, "Yeah, Chris. I didn't make 225 dollars an hour either when I was a lawyer."
Turns out he worked as a lawyer to put himself through plumbing school.
That's what they charge. Then take out taxes, the truck, fuel, insurances, workers comp, licence fees, accounting, and about twenty other costs I can't drag off the top of my head. $27-35 sounds about right for a plumber charging $100 an hour.
33% is consistent across all professionals for which the owner is the professional (e.g. doctors, lawyers, dentists, plumbers, arborists, etc). I'm not self-employed, but secondary experiences. So, right you are.
I gots a pipe wrench. I gots a truck (it's either a Ford, a Government Motors, or a Cerberus/Dodge. SHIT, I can't remember.). I got pants that show my butt-crack. Still working on the hair on my back-fat, and the 'beer-belly' though, so I guess I's just an 'apprentice'.
HELL YEAH!
Do you have ANY IDEA how hard it is to resist the temptation to SNIFF the GLUE that is used in the modern plastic plumbing joints? I HAD TO GET A DEGREE IN 'WATER DISTRIBUTION MECHANICAL MANAGEMENT', for God's sake!
And this perfectly illustrates why a lot of kids don't go into the trades.
This snarky fucking attitude by the population to people who fix things and work with their hands.
I owned and operated an auto repair for over 15 years. The suits were devastated when their car wouldn't go. It's the one main reason I want to live long enough to see the wheels fall off the cart.
I want to see these snarky suits on the floor, in a fetal position, bawling their eyes out, because " it" doesn't work anymore.
People mistake a college degree for education. Both can open doors but the degree is like a rusty key that fits relatively few locks whereas education is like a good set of lock picks that can open about any door if used properly.
Lots of people with expensive keys that apparently fit nothing at all.
I graduated high school in 1984, valedictorian of my tiny class of fifteen students. My goal was to get a BS in Aerospace Engineering or Computer Science. The guidance counselor told me that if I didn't have the $10,000 it would cost to attend Iowa State University for FOUR YEARS for tuition, room, board, and fees, that I would have to try and get an ROTC scholarship or enlist. I was going to try for a USAF ROTC scholarship, but the requirements said that I needed two years of a foreign language. The ONLY way I could have gotten that would have been to take French I instead of Drivers' Ed my sophomore year. My guidance counselor told me NOTHING about applying for scholarships, getting loans, or any of that.
So, instead, I enlisted in the USAF at the age of 18, and spent a total of almost 11 years in. I crosstrained from my first job to Computer Programming, and started working on classes for that degree in 1990. Through other credits, tech schools, CLEP, DANTES, and specific classes at Park College, I graduated with my BSCS in 1991, and two Community College of the USAF Associates Degrees. The whole degree cost me about $500-$1,000 out of my pocket (and eleven of the best years of my youth). I got out in 1995.
Now, I am a software engineer making decent money. I have a paid off house, and one paid off car (with the other soon getting paid off). So while my compatriots were going to college, getting drunk, getting laid, and flunking out, I was working in USAF intelligence at the ripe old age of 20. When my kids were going to college, my wife (Asian) had a hard time understanding why I didn't want to mortgage the house to send our two (then ungrateful) kids off to private university. I insisted they make their own way. Both have done so, for the most part.
Moral of the story is, if you are motivated, there are plenty of ways to finish college with no debt, or to get yourself into good training. I don't hvae any sympathy for the kids who borrowed to the hilt to go play. And I am told I AM THE ONE WITH "WHITE PRIVILEGE!!!" (UGH)
Read the Lord's recent warning about an incoming asteroid... looks like the Great Tribulation is about to begin..... www.revelation12.ca
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Motivation would infer a willingness to sacrifice in the present for future goals. I don't see a lot of that happening today. There never has been a lot, but more so today, and I believe it is because the future appears so bleak that few see the point.
They can see the dark clouds of debt servitude on the horizon. They're also awakening to the school debt scam, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy. I expect that rule will have to be repealed once the colleges can't pay their communist instructors anymore.
agreed. I made the right decisions and worked my ass off doing it. The guy who got high every day in highschool and dropped out without a HS degree to become a mechanic is making roughly what I am, and he has an extra four years of income. Im one of the ones who was lucky enough to even find a job too!
Why take the risks and spend the extra hours planning and studying when it makes about the same amount of sense to fuck around then arbitrarily pick a trade? Odds are, Ill be vilified for my interests in a few years despite personally acting in an ethical and honest manner anyway.
It is ALWAYS better to be a MAKER than a TAKER! If you are doing your best at what you love, that is what counts. Yeah, having money is good, but if ZH is right, and it's all going to zero anyway, what good does money do, anyway?
The mechanic who does it because he loves it, or that is where his talents lie, or even the one who made mistakes in high school, but is working hard to take care of his family, well, that person has my undying respect. Unlike THE INTERNET, I am willing to forgive someone the follies of their youth, if they grow up to be responsible.
"18 This is what I have observed to be good: that it is appropriate for a person to eat, to drink and to find satisfaction in their toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given them—for this is their lot. 19 Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God. 20 They seldom reflect on the days of their life, because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart."
Solomon, King of Israel, Wisest Man to Ever Live
Ecclesiastes 5:18-20
It's not even close to like that anymore is it? 1984 is a long time ago, and there are no jobs for new people now. 93 million out of the labor force, 100 million out of work.
Nice little read you have there; I enjoyed it! Thanks for sharing!
The military is definitely a viable option, but nowadays you could end up on multiple deployments to Bodybagastan, and a lot of kids don't wanna take that route. I think things are a little tougher for today's kids
than it appears at first blush. But granted, a whole lot of them probably don't have the ambition you showed in your path.
1986, One hit wonder Timbuk 3. They don't make songs like this these days!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY
That's a good one. Not heard that in quite a while. Killer harmonica. Never seen the video. We were so far out in the sticks we had to pipe in sunlight much less MTV.
Good for you, but in middle age, still having to pay off car loans and unable to send your kids to college without taking out a mortgage? All despite being in a profession which they claim there's huge demand for? See the bigger problem? Its not your fault, its just that the elites have used H-1Bs and other scams, such as financialism, to rob very productive people like you of the compensation you deserve by using your skills in the economy.
The messed up thing is that the frat boys you speak of are the ones running the system today. Something needs to be done to change that. The inmates do not deserve to run the asylum!
Well, I spent nine of the next twenty years after the USAF homeschooling my kids. We spent a lot of money on their "enrichment" activities (many of those my wife wanted for them, but I didn't think they needed), to try to help them get the college scholarships. My wife works 70+ hours per week, but she makes minimum wage. I was playing "Mr. Mom" at home while working full time. I was making a decent salary, but yes, we DID fall into the debt trap early on in marriage: two cars and a house, and lots of credit-card debt when I was trying to get started after getting out of the USAF. I got a 50% pay raise, but it was all gobbled up in cost of living increase moving from OKC to St. Louis.
So, yes, we COULD have saved money for college while dumping the darling kids into public school, but I decided to slow down my career so I could homeschool them. I don't regret any of the sacrifices.
The thing that DOES tick me off is that when we FINALLY are at the point where we should be enjoying our lives (late 40's / early 50's, kids out of the house, college done, etc), it looks like I will have to "give back" more of what I earned... oops, I mean... what was "handed to me" as part of my "white privilege".
unable to send your kids to college without taking out a mortgage
Oh, yeah... we COULD have hobbled by for another six years to send them to public university... if I wanted to sacrifice ANOTHER SIX YEARS for them... but I thought the sacrifice of nine of my best career years to homeschool them was enough. Also, I don't think one is a bad parent if he insists that his kids make their own way. My opinion is, "that which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." (My son kind of helped prove this point to my wife, though we hope he finally has his act together.)
dochood,
You were driven, talented, skilled, ambitious, and focussed. You were what used to be known as "college material". The majority of teenagers aren't. It's not their fault, but they simply aren't "college material". Yet in this fucked up world of today they're under intense pressure to go to college.
Picture a typical likable but hapless High School senior wondering what to do after commencement. They're good at hanging out with friends and fucking off in general, but they're not particularly good at anything else: poor math skills, lousy reading comprehension, can't sing, can't dance, not athletic, can't do abstract thinking, no problem solving ability, mediocre SAT score, and acne. They'd make a terrible soldier, and the armed forces don't want them anyway. There are no jobs available except a few really shitty McJobs that will never allow them to be self-supporting. Yet it's time to move on and make their way in life as an adult.
The guidance counselor tells them, "Maybe you're a 'people person'. There's financial aid available to pursue a career in (some goofball field of study that a true college candidate could master in six weeks)."
They sign the papers; soon they're on their own, learning to be an adult and attaining the skills that will enable them to be a balanced, happy, fulfilled self-supporting member of society. After four years they graduate with a big college loan balance and a degree in (some goofball field of study that a true college candidate could master in six weeks).
Try to have some empathy for these poor schleps. They didn't do anything wrong, they didn't try to hurt anyone or let anyone down, but now they're nothing but a useless unemployable loser at the ripe age of 25. That would SUCK!
There used to be living wage jobs for high school grads who chose not to go to college, but now, sadly, the manufactuing base has been gutted--so kids are encouraged to take another, often times less successful, route.
Why should any kid be forced to serve time in the US military just to educate themselves. A very sad story.
That's the way it was then. It is actually easier now to get scholarships, if you are dedicated and determined.
However, I don't regret my decision one bit. I took the opportunities I had, and I worked my butt off to make the best of them, to reap the rewards later... (after I figured out that credit card and consumer debt sucks).
That's why I get so ticked off at all of this "privilege" bull crap. It used to be called "merit."
Good story. I went the AFROTC scholarship route. Funny, but I don't recall a requirement for 2 years of a foreign language; just had to pass the AFOQT (which was easy to do). One difference is that I applied my Fall semester freshman year and was on scholarship by Spring semester. I majored in Electrical Engineering (which they wanted desperately at the time) so maybe they didn't care?
UM, YEAH.
I read that you let 'your' GOVERNMENT pay for all (exept about $1,000) of your 'education'...
NOW, you are a 'software engineer' (making 'decent money').
You were, in fact, 'CROSSTRAINED' (as you state).
Ungrateful mullato brats and an Asian wife are now working on your 'superiority' paradigm. Of COURSE, you haven't learned the qualities of SYMPATHY and FEALTY (you did all you did 'by yourself', and those around you don't 'appreciate you').
It must SUCK knowing that the 'government' that you 'pledged your life for' considers YOU to be a 'domestic enemy terroist threat', now. Those 'FREE' 'student loans' from the USAF that you THINK you got are coming back to bite you, now.
"Moral of the story is, ...I don't hvae (sic) any sympathy"
Um, YEAH.
I would like to respond to this, but your vitriol is flying in so many directions, I can't quite figure out exactly what your point is. I'll try my best.
1) My kids ARE grateful now. They used to be somewhat infected by the American culture of ingratitude. Life has taught them a few lessons.
2) I was grateful for the opportunity to serve America at the time, and I was grateful for the opportunities that God gave me. I AM proud that I tried to make the best of them. I did fail at times.
3) I didn't do it "all by myself". My point was that I did get a degree without debt, and that it is still possible.
4) I don't have sympathy for the party crowd who borrowed money for the easy degrees so they could party. I do have SOME sympathy for the kids did work hard, but who let themselves be deceived into falling into the debt trap. But at least they could have picked up a calculator.
5) I really can't quite figure out what the rest of your point is, so I won't try to debate it.
6) Don't call my kids "mulatto".
I worked hard during college and paid for my college education because my parents did not have the money. I left $15k in debt with a BS in microbiology in 1986. My loans were paid in full 1993. During my year of clinical internship I was paid $300 monthly as a stipend. Today my same degree is close to $60k at the local state university and the year internship costs $24k.
I considered my education critical to getting my job but the hard fact is I got most of my real education working with extremely experienced microbiologists on the job. I thought I knew everything but I found out quickly bacteria don't read text books and the world in the field is very different from a college classroom.
If this is true of my field, what can be truly said of a woman's study degree? You'd have to pay me to sit through that drivel and anyone pursuing one certainly couldn't imagine they'd be employable.
Miffed
I know many people with engineering degrees going without jobs. Let's not assume this problem is about rich kids screwing around in school. You go 40k in debt to get a STEM degree and are just as unemployed.
This is about jobs, the theft of America by the elite, and what can be done about their "malfeasance".
So true. Engineering degrees might seem like the cure-all, but as the petroleum engineer people are finding out (and the computer engineering people found out 15 years ago), once the tide goes out, it can be a long time until the tide ever comes back in again. So that $90k might seem like a lot up-front, but if you're only working half the time and laid off the other half, as is typical in engineering, then is there really anything to be gained?
A big chunk of the problem in the tech sector is the use of H-1B visas to displace much of America's top talent. Even reputable engineering programs like Cornell and UC Berkeley can't substantiate more than 1/3rd of their STEM grads finding employment. A UCB Math grad a couple years back even self-reported only being able to find employment as a Starbucks Barista!
+10 for focus "what can be done about their "malfeasance"."
The problem with internships is that some firms have become so dependant on them that they don't even consider top talent who didn't complete an internship, completed one with a different company, or simply pursued other things on their time off like travel, partying, etc. (useful endeavours in their own right!).
I personally know a few top grads who received so much in scholarships that they didn't feel the need to do an internship -- their resources were adequate for taking a much needed break from school/study/work. Yet when they tried to enter the workforce, wham, HR wouldn't even talk to them. Internships traditionally haven't even been marketed towards the top of the class, rather, they are marketed towards C students who are willing to work cheap, need the extra cash, and need the academic break.
Education is an industry which is fed by government subsidy in the same way that the defense industry is. Whether there is any greater harm to the society by having overeducated, highly indebt individuals, vs. the build up of colossaly expensive weapon systems that are retired to the desert or storage facilities to make way for new weapons (subsidies to defense industries) is an open question in my mind.
Bring the question down to my level.
Does a dog chasing it's tail accomplish anything?
I have a losing hand at this point and am too old to get another degree. JD/MBA, English Major.
Should I just kill myself?
No we love you and your degree.
Now down to business. Sell your degree.
First, why do you compare the AVERAGE salary of plumbers to the STARTING salaries for nurses, accountants and engineers? Isn't that mixing apples and oranges? Also, not everybody has the aptitude for working in the trades. Finally, union plumbing apprenticeships, for example, are very popular. Getting your application to the top of the pile of hundreds is hardly an easy shot. So, this "steer people to the trades" sounds like the same kind of hype that is used to steer people towards STEM careers. Unfortunately, after all the hard work to get their STEM degrees, many graduates can't find STEM jobs. A 2014 National Science Board study found that of 19.5 million holders of STEM degrees, only 5.4 million were working in those fields.
The bigger problem, in an economy that is unable to produce enough living wage jobs, is that a college degree is now required for many entry level jobs that historically did not require a college degree. The alternative is to patch together multiple part time jobs to try to make enough to pay the rent, food, car loan, utilities, etc. So taking on the debt to get a degree gives one the hope that, at least, one can get a full time (with benefits!) position on the bottom rung that has an opportunity for potential advancement.
This analysis ignores reality and repeats the same old fallacies that give our legislaors the excuse not to address the growing problem with the disappearance of living wage jobs in an increasingly automated and outsourced world. As usual, the Mises misers are speaking for economic royalists who have no conception of how things are in the real world.
http://burning-glass.com/research/credentials-gap/
Exactly. Many STEM employers claim to be hiring the best people, but in reality, they simply aren't able to sample enough of the market to even make that determination. The resulting lack of meritocracy is incredibly damaging to the talent that is arbitrarily excluded based on the interview lottery, as well as to the economy that loses the use of their skills as they sit at home and play Xbox waiting for the phone to ring. Labour market economists think that STEM grads can just go work for other companies or 'lesser' jobs like McDonalds, but people who try do to that are usually shunned or found to be overqualified. Some are even viewed as being inferior because they couldn't find a job in the STEM field, despite the horrific numbers as you state. I've seen so much talent destroyed in this fashion!
Right on.
Please stop whining - geez. Get off your ass and work multiple jobs - problem solved.
Be careful about who calls themselves STEM these days. A lot of psychology majors insist that their degree is STEM too.
I'm embarrassed to say that I graduated from Central Connecticut State University in 1982 with a BA degree in economics. THIS IS A WARNING TO ALL KIDS THAT WANT TO MAJOR IN ECONOMICS. Do not do it! It is a wasted degree. Unless you go all the way to an advanced degree (Phd), economics will do you no good.
Connecticut was much different then. Now it is just the rich who live in Fairfield & Hartford Counties (the surrounding areas of Hartford that you go drive thru on I 84 on route to Boston) and the poor who live in Bridgeport, Waterbury the city of Hartford. Seriously, it has to be the snootiest, most uppity state maybe because they realize the state sucks and many will never make enough to afford to live Greenwich or Stamford -- I myself have lived in both cities from 2006-2009..
stay in school, max debt, be happy... most will never have a good job w or w/o college so you might as well enjoy life until you are 25.
then what happens when you are 25?? should one expect parents to pay their rent, car payment (many kids are paying $399 a month or more on a 24 or 36 month BMW or Lexus Lease payment), insurance payment, annual excise tax on this car and student loan payments until they are making in the six figures??
Enjoy life, think "Positive", don't act "negative" because you will spread negativity to others?? That is biggest bunch of bullshit I have ever heard. Only said by sheltered coddled kids whose parents have watched too much CNN and rely on the Huffington Post for their news
Now loans are being pushed on the Parents by banks equivalent of the Federal Parent PLUS loan. Banks like East Boston Savings Banks & Citizens now have these cutsey, flowery commercials on the radio pushing such products that have 'guaranteed rates' lower than that of the federal PLUS (Parent loan) with no origination fee to save WHOLE $620 a year. 'Senior Relationship Bankers' (who are also "Moms" ) are pushing these products. In Massachusetts where student loan money keeps rents in the greater Boston, Brookline areas absurdly high there is now a state agency "MEFA" that is supposed to 'assist parents & students' with paying for college.. well what about saving the money and not expecting others to subsidize you ?
MASSACHUSETTS EDUCATIONAL FINANCING AUTHORITY
MASSACHUSETTS EDUCATIONAL FINANCING AUTHORITYI did my first two years in a community college and then paid for the last few semesters with a credit card because the interest was cheaper, still wish I hadn't have gone to college; or that I had chosen engineering and stopped having fantasies of living some movie college life.
You didn't emphasize the fact that American education has become outrageously expensive.
A kid must pay $100,720 for her degree at the University of Minnesota.
Can't this kid just enter a university somewhere in India or China, pay $2,000 for 4 years there and become a computer programmer or electronics engineer?
Of course, you read everywhere that American education is superior.
But if you study electronics in Shenzhen, you'll be in the Computer Capital of the World. Just compare the wares at you local Radioshack and the enormous electronics bazaar in Shenzhen.
We need to make things here at home, again. A balance needs to be struck between environmental concerns and economic concerns. In my opinion, the EPA is responsible in large part for the mess we are in. Sure, I like clean air and water as much as everyone else, but we are kidding ourselves by just offshoring the dirty stuff, where it is being done even worse. But it's cheaper. It's the same planet.
Maybe, Uncle Sugar needs to ease up on the defense spending, and pony up on some some sustainable steel mills or a new oil refinery or two. He destroys these companies with the EPA, they shut down and move to Timbuktu, we lose our jobs, and the stuff is shipped in, made in away that causes even more harm to the Enviroment. Our air is cleaner, but we don't have a job. A little balance maybe?
It is true that subsidized loans and/or tuition only raises fees. I don't know if it necessarily increases interest in grievance studies. Although, it is probably true that those courses meet the needs of hose in college just for a degree in partying.
The other perspective is that for kids that come from families with no college background, college is seen as something to be strived for regardless of the degree. Lack of college education has held the previous generation back, so there is pressure on the next generation to pursue any degree.
I don't see those that perpetuate the "million dollars over lifetime" claim to be too different from those that perpetuated the "house prices only increase" meme. Guidance counselors (high school or university) are not really different from subprime brokers. I think the government's primary objective here is to keep the university system from crumbling to preserve high paid jobs (mostly admins and football coaches). Profs get a lot of flak on this board and in general, but what do football coaches really add to American society or even the university?
Theres always the die-hard 'we need more engineers' crowd that argue that everyone should pursue a STEM degree. STEM is great, but it is not for everyone. From what I see, things are pretty bad in STEM from the employment perspective (unless one is a software guru or technology evangelist or principal druid of database architecture methodologies..). I would say that in general, a STEM degree is no longer a guaranteed ticket to job security. North America has been producing an excess of engineering degrees for at least 20 years now. I only have data for On/Canada: http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.ospe.on.ca/resource/resmgr/DOC_advocacy/201...
For everything outside of ECE, the jobs tend to go to those with prior coop/summer experience and even then there is no guarantee. A lot of the work is routine, and not technologically stimulating. "Just make sure it doesn't fall apart until we decommission in 2 years" seems to be the mentality. Max points for knowing a companies internal processes. Not as many for knowing what entropy is.
If you had to pick a STEM degree, I would pick ECE or Industrial/Operations Research. CS demand seems to be cyclic, like petroleum engineering. I don't know much about CS, tbh - but ECE gives you exposure to both the CS and industrial/facilities world.
As for trades, in Canada there is a shortage of apprenticeships and an excess of people that have completed 'apprentice-prep' courses. Its awesome if you are a plumber or know one that will take you on as an apprentice. Not so much if you are John Q. Public.
The other thing I want to note is that despite 7 years of essentially 0% federal funds rates, CAPEX does not seem to have increased all that much (outside of O&G). Are the banks/companies just greedy and love to buy their own shares? If they thought they could make more money by buying free turbines/hardware/factories to fund expansion and hire new blood, wouldn't they? While C-suite folk tend to focus too much on quarter-to-quarter performance.. I don't think that is the whole story. Is Ford creating more value by expanding its facilities when car sales seem to grow only due to subprime loans? How much more could GE improve refrigerators or washing machines? Am I wrong in thinking that we've pretty much maxed out what we can do for the first two levels of Mazlov's hierarchy, technologically speaking?
Young people! Do not believe what you hear about education.
The below is a must read for you, a link to the truth about educational system and what purpose it really serves. It is not what you think.
https://contrarianopinion.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/education-blessings-o...
Give you a hint: we need no reforms but big time revolution in the educational system with all administrators/educators OUT, competent teachers, with knowledge, not mafia-like meaningless credentials IN. We need to destroy this village to safe this village.
Let teach people who know something, not only teaching, but something. But that's only first step in overall revolution.
These stories pop up on ZH every 2 or 3 weeks with the same college is not worth it message. The reality has not changed - college IS worthwhile if you go to the right schools or select the right majors. College is NOT worth it if you pick the wrong majors (though I suppose an occasional women's studies major will go on to head some non-profit organization).
Notice how Goldman Sachs is a subprime studnet loans whore that gives blowjobs?
Academia is just another leftist money laundering operation:
1. Borrow and tax to provide cheap student loans and various subsidies. Promote "education" to maximize student borrowing.
2. Universities collect the money, fund silly "studies" courses and ever-growing numbers of meaningless administrative positions.
3. "Academia" expresses its gratitude by contributing a significant percentage of Democrat political contributions (aka kickbacks). All legal. A clever little self-serving scheme, is it not? But only for the institutions involved. Students, not so much.
Here is a simple fact: the unemployment rate for college graduates is 50% less than those without, and they are not all petroleum engineers.
The way to end the debt slavery is simple: make college education free for all, as it is in 7 nations, including some of the most prosperous (Germany, Finland, etc). College loans, today, help those from the most vulnerable levels of society, the poor, minorities, etc.
Money isn't everything. Comparing a master plumber, with 20 years experience (and varioius serious physical impairments0 to someone who has just graduated from college is absu
The effect of this article is to a dog whistle, since ending college loans (as proposed by Rick Perry and Rand Paul),would hurt the poor most, and blacks and Latinios are disproportionately poor.
This is basically a diatribe against the liberal arts and other "non-professional" areas of study.
The AACU refutes these claims with facts:
" At peak earnings ages (56-60 years) workers who majored as undergraduates in the humanities or social sciences earn annually on average about $2000 more than those who majored as undergraduates in professional or pre-professional fields.
More than 9.6 million individuals hold a baccalaureate degree in a humanities or social sciences field, and nearly 4 million of these individuals (about 40 percent) also hold a graduate or professional degree. These graduates with advanced degrees experience, on average, a yearly boost in earnings of nearly $20,000.
The unemployment rate for recent college graduates in Information Systems has spiked to 11.7 percent, while the rates for majors in Computer Science and Mathematics are 7.8 percent and 6.0 percent, respectively.
Unemployment rates are relatively low (5.4 percent) for recent college students who majored in Healthcare and Education because these majors are attached to stable or growing industry sectors. Recent graduates in Psychology and Social Work have relatively low unemployment rates (7.3 percent) nearly half work in Healthcare and Education. The same is true for unemployment among recent college graduates who majored in the Life and Physical Sciences (7.7 percent)
In the medium run almost all these unemployed will find work, incliuding architcts and IT workers.
In the long run, almost all graduate will make more, pay more taxes, and be able to afford education for their children.
There will never be enough jobs requiring a degree for those with college degrees, as shown by the climbing unemployment numbers, as there are too many going to college now all around the world. You fail to mention the large numbers of degreed people employed in jobs that do not require a degree. In recent years the unemployment rate for degreed people has doubled and continues to climb. With the mindset in this country if college were free even more would go to college, for many 4 years of vacation and partying, and the education system would put out an even more inferior product at a higher price because they can fill the seats and keep them filled longer with the taxpayer footing the tab. Technology says that in the future it will be the educated ranks that will devastated and many jobs that remain will be handled by non degreed people. Many of the educated jobs will be shifted overseas where they belong as CEO"s realize trying to control their empires with staff located at home base instead of the country of operations is detrimental. The future growth and opportunities will be outside the US. You say the humanities are doing great but fail to mention most of the jobs are funded by the taxpayers. You paint a rosy picture for attending college but the situation is not. Until such time as college is rationed to those with the talent and smarts and there is jobs for them college will continue to be a boondoggle drawing in ever more unqualified suckers looking for the pot of gold while the education industry is willing to accomodate them to fill ever more seats and increasing their building programs, power, and influence.
Throw out the top 1000 degreed billionaires and the 1000 bottom burger flippers and your million dollars extra per year in income for having a degree shrinks. Lot's of those big salaries are also in areas where the cost of living is outrageous. I can rent a better apartment here for $800 that they are paying $3500 for in San Francisco. My son interviewed for a job in Frisco a few years ago, with a nice raise, but he didn't take it because it would cost double there to maintain the lifestyle he had. It's only gotten worse since then.
"Make it free for all".
Not in my lifetime, Mr. Communist, if I can help it. Get the government OUT of the education business. Shut down the Department of Education entirely.
Free never means free. Someone has to pay for it, and I for one am sick and tired of paying for other people's stuff. Free for everyone just means a guaranteed income for the colleges and Universities. In case you haven't heard, our government is BROKE! We are $18 Trillion plus in debt, with over $100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. You sir, are the epitome of stupidity. And with that "free" education you'd be sure to get a huge dose of INDOCTRINATION along with it.
The reason why costs of "higher education" just keep going up and up, is because they know they have guaranteed $$$$ from the US government.
As far as your % numbers are concerned, anyone can fudge the formulas to get the desired outcome, which is exactly what the US government has been doing for the past 7 years or more.
The main problem I see with College degrees is, people become trapped in College Life Cycle and it becomes a Job. After they get a degree, and have no practical experience and still don't get their dream job, they go back for more ! and do another course. And repeat this 3-4 times. In the end they have all these degrees and no job.
I work with a guy who was/is one of four kids. He also has many cousins.
His mother's sister is stupid wealthy by marriage. Multiple tens of millions.
She, the aunt, offered to pay for college for any and all who wanted to attend. But, you where expected to kiss the ring. My friend opted out.
He went on to become a millionaire. Business and real estate.
His brothers and sisters, one with two masters degrees, are constantly calling him for loans and advice. Without going into detail, Auntie hates him, and he is by far, the most successful of all the family offspring.
I see it time and time again.
EVERY high net worth individual and successful person I have been fortunate enough to meet, have done it without a degree. Some dropped out of high school. I'm not saying this is a career plan, but it says something about success.
It has definitely shaped my view of college.
More People should do a trade, Plumbing, Sparky, Builder, Concreeter.
It's real manual work, not pushing buttons and these people can make a fortune.
Physics uber alles, bitchez!
Mr Grossman,
My compliments to your understanding and analysis of the education loan problem!
Finally, and I do mean, FINALLY! Somebody has added an intelligent and thoughtful article to ZH. Much of what is provided here at ZH is very poor opinionated drivel. But your article, very well laid out and clearly describes the problem
I am quite appalled with a lot of the sentimental drivel and Mickey Mouse sense of understanding of economic matters that people and psuedo-people like Tyler Druden expound. The financial analysis by and large are not too bad, at least it is way better than those bobbing heads on cable, some of which are absolutely horrid, as in, Squawk, Fox, Mad, and Suze are just fantasy shows of finance.
Anyway, I just wanted to say good show, Sir, and I hope ZH learns to give more thoughtful and insightfull articles like yours. The people need them!
Bravo, Mr. Grossman!
Anyone can be trained to work on an assembly line. 99% of all occupations can be compared to an assembly line, even surgeons. Turning a wrench for the rest of your life will fill your belly but not your soul.
Learning an advanced degree is better than not earning one. Colleges also provided an education in all aspects of life. When I was young I was told that high school prepared you for college and college for life. Ironically enough when I finished college I went to work for a major transportation company as a union driver and now make more money than most people holding advanced degrees, but, I in no way regret going to college. I learn more about, economics, politics, art, music, critical thinking, literature, and so many other subjects in the humanities that those who work with me no nothing of.
I see there lives and they are like adult children lurching from one temporal superficial sensation to another endlessly feeding their vanities and tiny egos. Me, I spend my money traveling, donating to charities, volunteering at archaeological sites, visting museums, reading the classics, going to symphonies and plays. I would never had done that had I not been exposed to it in college.
Your an idiot. Just so you know, " turning a wrench" is how us little people describe auto repair.
And if you think for one second, diagnosing and repairing modern automobiles is not challenging and fulfilling, you have got a lot to learn.
Run a shop with 5-7 " wrenches". ( mechanics, techs), take in 15-15 cars a day, in various states of need. Accurately diagnose the problem(s), source the parts, estimate the labor and parts cost, sell the repair, and then get it done by 5:30. Have a clean, fixed car ready for pickup, with an accurate bill, for a customer who can't live without their car.
Yeah, no pressure.
I had doctors for clients. I would jokingly tell them their job was easier. They only have two models to work on, and they don't change every year.
I absolutely agree. In fact, I think a good or great auto mechanic is a very valuable commodity.
Today, it seems (and I'm no expert in automotive, but I do have quite a long history of having to deal with auto problems), dealerships tend to solely rely on "codes". If there's no code for a problem, they're lost. Even if there is a code, especially if its a new vehicle, good luck getting the manufacturer to ALLOW the mechanic to work on the problem!
I'll keep this short:
In 2009, we had just bought a V8 4WD vehicle and went on vacation six months later. During the trip, it kept dying and sputtering. At a stop sign, you'd give it gas to go, and it would die. When doing 75 on an interstate, passing a semi was life-threatening, b/c it could die when you hit the gas. We had it towed over 150 miles to the nearest dealership. We lost our vacation and stayed two nights in town. The dealer said it needed intake cleaning. The code had been two misfiring cylinders, but the dealer just performed the instructed servicing. They weren't allowed to check for anything else. The dealer told me it was the gas I was using, saying that I need to use 85 rather than 91 octane.
The issue kept happening and kept getting worse. In fact, at one point, we crawled into the dealership and they sent me back out on the road with a service tech, hooked up to a laptop to the vehicle. When we got back, the tech said no way would he ever drive it--it was too dangerous to drive. But the service manager ignored this and sent us home. The fact was that the company refused to allow the techs to work on the vehicle. Their favorite slogan is "we're not just going to throw parts at it"!
Even though a vehicle is nothing but a summation of its parts, they refused to try to "think" about what could be at issue. To me it was simple: It was either electrical or fuel related. But some part was not working, and they refused to hunt down what was wrong. Then, I sued the auto manufacturer. All I wanted was to have it fixed!
So after winning the law suit, they finally ordered the service techs to get to work. The issue was a bad fuel pump and a bad pressure regulator. That was six months into owning a brand new vehicle. We've now had it for 6 years and it still runs great, and it has 156,000 miles on it.
Fast forward to today, and the same dealership still has very lousy service. I have now resorted to figuring out any issues myself. Then, I purchase parts from the dealership (there's no 3rd party parts for this vehicle), have them shipped to me, and then a pay a great mechanic to install the parts. Recently, we had an issue with the engine overheating. First, I replaced the Fan Motor, then the Thermostat and Temperature switch (whatever). But it still overheated. It was only overheating when idling, not when driving, so I figured, wait, it must be the condenser or A/C condenser fan. When I inspected the cords leading to/from the condenser fan motor, there was the issue--a badly burnt out connector assembly. So I ordered a new fan motor and resistor/thermostat switch assembly, and voila! No more overheating while idling! BTW, I had taken it into the dealership and they spent a whole day trying to figure out what was wrong and why it was overheating while idling. They charged me $200 and ultimately told me that it must be a bad head gasket! The service manager wanted me to arrange a date to get it fixed! Even though I wasn't burning oil and even though there was no burn smell in the coolant. They wanted to take apart my engine and replace the head gasket, even though I found it was just a bad connection at the resistor switch!
I cannot tell you the manufacturer, but I am glad that I found a great independent mechanic who can replace and work on anything I need to have done. A good mechanic, to me, is worth a million bucks.
A run of the mill B.A. or B.S. ist not worth more than a HS diploma about 40 years ago. One reason is that 'inflation' was forced upon academia in order to appease the left/special interest goups. THe bar was being lowered to accomodate the illegal immigrants and poor blacks because it was deemed undoable to have entire classes fail major tests.
And for those who could not even graduate from a public high school they came up with the GED which is worth about as much as a roll of Charmin.
During the 1990's, Surveying Associations insisted on changing State law so that a degree would be required if one wanted to become a Licensed Professional Land Surveyor.
The thinking was that, since pay was so low in the industry, the fix would be to require a 4 year degree in order to become licensed. Until then, most if not all states required apprenticeship under a licensed land surveyor. In Illinois, for example, the apprenticeship was 12 years--and that was just to sit for the exam. There was no guarantee that you would pass.
But the die was cast, and so most States started to adopt a degree requirement for an RPLS. Some states put in a grandfather clause, so that those who had built up the 12 years and those who had or were going to have an SIT (Surveyor in Training) certificate, could eventually sit for the LS exam. But many states did not put this clause in, and so an entire generation of potentially great surveyors were lost within the system. Imagine being 40 years old and someone passes a law, making it nearly impossible for you to get your License, after years of hard work. At 40 years old, you were supporting a family (or trying to), and had no time nor money to "go back to school".
But here's the rub: Surveying firms perform many types of work, including Construction surveying, topographic surveying, and boundary surveys. And it was once said that the pay of a surveyor would never match that of a Professional Engineer, because the general public sees the surveyor digging in the dirt (to search for property corners, etc). But TPTB wanted their profession to be seen in the same light as a Professional Engineer, which, by the way, without Surveyors, nothing gets designed or built. And many times, Surveyors are required to fix the mistakes made by Civil Engineers and Architects so the job gets done. But I digress.
So, did individual pay increase at such a rate in the past 20 years to warrant the need for a 4 year degree? I think not, but that would be a great research piece to see here on ZeroHedge. In fact, the issues with the 4 year degree requirement was multi-faceted:
1) No Survey company could afford to pay an employee (i.e. a crew chief) who got their 4 year degree, a salary commensurate with their education. In fact, you were lucky to earn $12 to $15 per hour as a Survey Crew Chief in Illinois or Ohio in the 1990's and beyond. In fact, in Wyoming in 2000, the pay rate for a good crew chief was just $14 / hour.
2) Surveying firms had a lot of overhead (high-tech gear like survey-grade GPS, robotic total stations, computer systems for CAD drawing) and low gross income. Realty firms paid little for each lot survey or mortgage survey. And while IMHO, the property survey is the most important document in the transfer of real estate, the Realtor made a % of the sale, whilst the lowly surveyor got 150 bucks.
3) Only a handful of Universities actually were offering a Surveying degree program at the time. More Universities began to join in, but eventually, those programs faded away. Again, no one in their right mind would spend $50K or more on an education and come out making $15 per hour!
So I watched as an entire generation of surveyors lost their ability to become the next generation of licensed Land Surveyors. All because TPTB (and Progressives) insisted that we get 4 year degrees--their reasoning being that somehow, our paychecks would magically increase, and we would become as publicly respected as our Civil Engineering friends.
Funny thing, though--Apprenticeship was good enough for Three of the Four Presidents on Mount Rushmore, who, by the way, were Surveyors (Lincoln, Washington, and Jefferson).
IIRC, the GED was developed so that the young men who went into the military during WWII could test out of high school and not be dogged the rest of their working lives as high school dropouts who didn't have a way to prove that they were intellectually capable of graduating.
I've been told that homeschooling networks use GEDs and college entrance exams to document college readiness and satisfy college entrance and job application requirements.
One major problem is the growing number of occupations (like the Surveying field mentioned by Surveyor4Pres) where unelected "professional associations" have decided that the way to increase pay in their field is to force licensing and educational requirements. People who would otherwise be able to do their jobs and grow with their fields are forced into an endless cycle of education, certifications, testing, and Continuing Education Credits, all with pricetags that purchase nothing but the right to continue working as you were. Those who have not yet entered, find themselves required to pay for two years of college in order to be LICENSED to cut hair.
Personally, I adore education. I spend all my free time trying to learn new things. But give me a good book and get out of my way. The Education Industry in this country is NOT a net producer on the balance sheet. Far too much time and money is wasted on frivolous hierarchical henpecking and the feathering of top administrators' nests. The costs of Higher Education are mainly insider profits for both the "for-profit" side of the game and the well-paid rulers of "non-profit" academe. The actual training conveyed in most four-year degrees could be acquired by a diligent student in two years for about $1000. Young people are well-advised to avoid the entire Higher Education racket, acquire useful skills, and purchase fake credentials if absolutely necessary.
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