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French President Calls For The Creation Of United States Of Europe

Tyler Durden's picture




 

On Friday, SocGen's Albert Edwards was confused: when describing the events of last weekend, when Greece seemed on the verge of being "temporarily" exiled from Europe thus confirming once and for all that the Euro is in fact quite reversible, it was not Germany against France, a France whose total government liabilities assure that its countdown to sovereign insolvency is just a few years behind that of Greece...

... but France alongside Germany, playing the good cop to Schauble's now traditional "Dr Evil" routine. To wit:

[what] surprised me over the weekend was France’s position. I was not in any way surprised that Germany was able to gather a huge number of allies to its camp, with its traditional fiscally conservatively minded allies such as Finland, Holland and Austria, as well as many central European governments. I was not even surprised that other countries previously crushed by austerity, Spain, Ireland etc., were firmly in the Germany camp too. But I was really surprised that French authorities did not stand up to say what was happening was unacceptable, unsustainable, and indeed unfair, and that they would have no part of it.

 

The reason why I am surprised that France went along with this extreme and humiliating austerity programme – and the effective removal of sovereignty forced on Greece – is simply its own self-interest, for France could itself end up in the firing  line. The problem France will surely find further down the road is that its own debt dynamics and sustainability is also highlyquestionable. Estimates we have used before with calculations for the present value of unfunded liabilities (as a % of GDP) show that actually it is not Spain or Italy that have the worst long-term debt sustainability issues; it is the US and France, and then next in line, surprisingly, Germany.

We said that we found France's capitulation "far less surprising: ultimately Hollande's sole focus was to preserve near-term stability (and his job) at any cost, if only until the 2017 French elections, which he is guaranteed to lose. Even if the French fiscal and solvency situation deteriorates dramatically over the next two years (and it will because as we showed in June, France has now had 80 consecutive months of record unemployment as a result of yet another socialist economic failure), by the time the world wakes up it will be someone else's problem, most likely that of Marine Le Pen, at which point the only way to resolve the French "problem" will by through the printing of French Francs."

Today Bloomberg confirmed just that, when it reported that instead of seeking a mathematical resolution to France's unsustainable government liability brick wall, Hollande is now likewise prepared to follow in Tsipras' footsteps and hand over French sovereignty to a German-led European "government" if it means extending the unsustainable French status quo as long as possible. To wit:

French President Francois Hollande said that the 19 countries using the euro need their own government complete with a budget and parliament to cooperate better and overcome the Greek crisis.

 

“Circumstances are leading us to accelerate,” Hollande said in an opinion piece published by the Journal du Dimanche on Sunday. “What threatens us is not too much Europe, but a lack of it.”

In other words, France just called for the creation of the United States Of Europe, where the dominant power (Germany) is in charge, and where the people of all the smaller, weaker countries, pardon pro forma European states, are merely slaves. See Greece.

And speaking of Greece, somehow we doubt the insolvent nation, which justt last week just handed over its sovereignty to Germany and Brussels, feels there is a "lack of Europe."

While the euro zone has a common currency, fiscal and economic policies remain mostly in the hands of each member state. European Central Bank President Mario Draghi made a plea this week for deeper cooperation between the euro members after political squabbles over Greece almost led to a rupture in the single currency.

 

Countries in favor of more integration should move ahead, forming an “avant-garde,” Hollande said.

 

“Europe has let its institutions weaken and the 28 European Union member countries are struggling to agree to move ahead,” Hollande said on Sunday in a text which was also a homage to his mentor Jacques Delors, a former European Commission President who proposed similar ideas. Draghi called for the creation of a shared treasury within 10 years in a joint proposal with politicians.

Well, of course Draghi would call for that: after all, the more "globalized" end markets are, and the greater the stock of monetizable debt collateralized by a supergovernment, the greater the profits for Goldman (followed shortly thereafter by a global government controlled by the Inner Party; call it "Oceania" for lack of a better made up word).

Not to mention that what would happen in Hollande's "avant-garde" world is that Germany will have achieved its World War II goal of taking over Europe without firing a single shot, with every other country, first Greece now France, and everyone inbetween, handing over its sovereignty to the Bundestag (not to mention to German exporters) to run the show.

As for Hollande, and his all time low approval rating, his immediate concern is not how to hand over Paris to Berlin, but how to prevent Marine Le Pen aka "Madame Frexit" from taking his seat in two years because as we wrote before the Greek referendum was even announced, "Forget Grexit, "Madame Frexit" Says France Is Next: French Presidential Frontrunner Wants Out Of "Failed" Euro."

Greece is now a sideshow even as its economy implodes completely and the country ultimately exits the Euro - the real question is can Germany build on the Hollande momentum to finally implement a Berlin-controlled, Frankfurt-funded "government" before Le Pen crushes the European dream, or nightmare as it is better known in Greece and for the half of Europe's peripheral youth who are permanently unemployed, once and for all.

 

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Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:39 | 6330583 ted41776
ted41776's picture

release the hounds

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:41 | 6330592 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

While you're at it don't forget the kraken...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:48 | 6330607 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

The mark of a true Socialist...we just haven't gone far enough yet.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:56 | 6330621 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

What Europe really needs is to rid itself of the Brussels parasitic super government. Without Brussels, each european would receive the equivalent of a 10-20% tax cut, plus far more freedom for entrepreneurs to innovate and create, instead of stifled by the dead hand of oppressive regulation. EU and the world needs more freedom, not less.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:00 | 6330636 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Using any derivative of the word "parasite" in the same sentence as the word "government" is redundant.  it's like saying "parasitic parasite".

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:20 | 6330665 philipat
philipat's picture

France doesn't want to become like Greece so wants to lock in German funding within a new "United" Europe, just like the poorer US States receive subsidies from wealthier States of the Union?

@LatinaLover +1000 You are so right. Farage is the only Politician who sees the complete picture and wants to restore National Sovereignty within a DEMOCRATIC structure. The peoples of Europe DONT WANT a United States of Europe with a Flag and Anthem but a Free Trade area of individual Sovereign States each with its own language, culture, Sovereignty and Legal system. But of course the "Euroelites" are disgusted by the concept of elections and the people deciding for themselves because the Elites know what is best for everyone. This was amply demonstarted by the contempt shown for the referendum in Greece.

Enter Ghordius in 3..2..1........

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:22 | 6330693 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Well, it's that or build another Maginot Line.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:25 | 6330697 knukles
knukles's picture

Moar Cow Shit

From Chaos, Order

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:05 | 6330793 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

They would do well borrowing our Constitution while we aren't using it.  Maybe we will start to miss it and want to get it back.  

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:19 | 6330817 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

  " They would do well borrowing our Constitution while we aren't using it.  Maybe we will start to miss it and want to get it back. " 

 

For God's sake not the SECOND Constitution.  That one enshrined Federalism and our doom here in Amerca.

Better the FIRST Constitution....the Articles of Confederation.  But of course....with its emphasis on states' rights, that would mean the breakup of the United States of Europe.  All the more reason to adopt that one.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:54 | 6330906 greenskeeper carl
greenskeeper carl's picture

truth. America died that day they abandoned the articles of confederation. THis guy does sound like a true socialist/statist/keynesian. "The only reason our policies havent worked i because we havent tried them enough". Its one of those statements that is almost impossible to disprove because in order to try thier theory and then disprove it would pretty much require time travel... Kinda like "the stimulus would have worked if it was bigger"  "the reason why we weren't able to spend our way out of the recession with big deficits is because the deficits weren't big enough". Makes sense if you don't think about it...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:02 | 6331135 Four chan
Four chan's picture

multiculturalism equates to turning many different and glorious people and cultures

into pointless mud people with no culture or national identity past a soccer team.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:29 | 6331222 Luc X. Ifer
Luc X. Ifer's picture

Yes, he sounds like a national-socialist, but how many hear the trumpets of the 4th Reich?!

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 03:39 | 6331609 BarkingCat
BarkingCat's picture

Actually it has been tried in a land not so far away (from France) and a time not so long ago. The French Tickler needs to read up on the Soviet Union, or any of its former satelite nations.

How it turns out can be found in the journals of history around 25 years ago.

I especially favor the ending in Romania.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:14 | 6330809 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

" Moar Cow Shit

From Chaos, Order "

 

Right knuks.....and to add to that......"Novus Ordo Seclorum"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_ordo_seclorum

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:25 | 6330702 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

France has nuclear weapons.

Germany does not yet have any nuclear weapons.

Germany is gettin rid of their nuke power stations.

Maybe Germany wants French nuclear weapons?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:28 | 6330707 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

I think they might.

It just depends on the manner in which the french intend to deliver them...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:40 | 6330740 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

The Nazis stole a lot of weapons from the Czechs when Germany invaded, was it 1939?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:53 | 6330757 philipat
philipat's picture

Incidentally, I forgot to note above that NONE of the Heads of the Institutions deciding the fate of Greece (The IMF, The ECB and The European Parliament) was actually elected by the peoples of Europe. So, regarding the absence of democracy within a totalitarian EU aparatus, I rest my case.

Enter Ghordius (About the "Narrow Anglo-Saxon perspective which never really understood the greater glory that is the "Grand European experiment") in.....a while, it's still only 3AM CET and one thing that Eurocrats do well is sleep....

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 05:20 | 6331684 Ofelas
Ofelas's picture

even tossing nukes the french would lose

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:55 | 6330705 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

The Germans will never lend them the euros to do that.

They'll have to settle for an iMaginot Line.

 

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 05:18 | 6331680 Ofelas
Ofelas's picture

Maginot Line...that worked well

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:58 | 6331113 Lux Fiat
Lux Fiat's picture

By and large agree with you on Farage.  He speaks his truth and unlike many people in politics, seems to be guided by an inner compass of common sense.  Watched a video of a great presentation given in the US by Farage (posted by a commenter on another site), and the Q&A 2nd was as good, if not better than the presentation. 

Presentation:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTsNqZxNIo

Q & A:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaaGMrsOzGY

Don't always agree with Paul Craig Roberts, but check out his site on occassion.  He was once again talking about US imperialism, depredations, etc., from his perspective, as he is wont to do, but the way he arranged the pieces of his argument made me wonder if perhaps a driving factor behind the growing EU integration push is an attempt to get into a better position to resist US "imperialism"/unilateralism in Europe.  Corporations such as BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank and others that have been fined billions of $ may be more than happy to support such an efforts for reasons completely unrelated to the NWO or Brussels bureaucrats hunger for power memes.  Via the Ukraine, the EU is taking the brunt of the ongoing proxy war between the US and Russia.  The "West" has been viewed as a US/European amalgam.  Perhaps some in Europe want a divorce, or at least a trial separation, and think it might be better accomplished through the strength in numbers approach, even if it is at the cost of democracy.  Just an idea. 

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/07/17/greeces-lesson-russia-paul-craig-roberts/

 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:40 | 6331255 Luc X. Ifer
Luc X. Ifer's picture

I see it exactly the same. What it takes I think to see these deep lines is to have lived actively actually for years in Western & Eastern Europe and North America to build a nose and recognize social & economical patterns and the differences. Once you accumulate this know-how foreseeing the future developments is pretty easy and I think this is why also PCS is mostly hitting the nail with his analysis due to the track of his life. All societies evolve accordingly to the local aspects and nuances of the same archetypes as Jung described them so for people with proper training and tools understanding the big picture is not an unachievable task.

http://psychology.about.com/od/personalitydevelopment/tp/archetypes.htm

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 16:50 | 6334000 Lux Fiat
Lux Fiat's picture

Not very familiar with Jung.  Perhaps that should change.  Imo, as the ego (or I least what I consider "ego") weakens, and along with it the need to be "right", the self-reinforcing perceptual filters that flow from our beliefs similarly weaken.  More is visible when you approach the world with a desire to see, versus validate.  Experience and a broader vantage point certainly give a leg up and PCR has both to a far greater extent than most.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:18 | 6330682 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The situation of the governmental failures inside the EU is spinning out of control, so naturally, Hollande (the good socialist-banking prick that he is) calls for a super-governace!

I can hardly wait to hear the opinions of some Spaniard (wup, excuse me, Euo-Peon) who has never heard of Tsipras and what effect he might have on his lifestyle.

I'm long popcorn ;-)

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:52 | 6330898 Pinche Caballero
Pinche Caballero's picture

Eurapeon

Sounds like a pretty apt description.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:26 | 6330704 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

FORWARD!!

The United States of Europe is going to happen. I think everyone can now see this in the tea leaves.

The Eurozone crisis will merely determine where the USE borders will eventually lie.

They will continue to amass biblical debts before the ECB inflates it all away with a currency crisis, followed by a revaluation and a new semi-fiat currency backed by luxury cars and perfume.

I expect the UK would fall on the outside, because the UK always follows the U.S. business cycle rather than the European one. Even tho Washington wants the UK in Europe I think the Brits are still far to suspicious of the whole Europe thing.

The British just aren't European. They are culturally too individualistic to ever recognise some large collective with whom they cannot converse.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:35 | 6330727 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Should be great fun to watch.

Imagine the debate to be had at the very First Euro-Peon Congress as to taxation without representation or in the Euro-Peon case...vice versa ;-)

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:43 | 6330746 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

I presume that would be fiat gold plated luxury cars and gold bottles of perfume.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:10 | 6330660 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Of course France wants a central gov.  For years they've been trying to get Germany to pay for their extreme form of socialism.  Germany, of course, doesn't want to give up all their hard work and success to a bunch of lazy bums.

Austerity will be coming to France, Italy and Spain unless they can find someone else's money to spend.  Protect yours or suffer like the poor Greeks are now.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:18 | 6330684 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

bingo.   Let's see,

the US Government does not discourage financial irresponsibility at the state level.  

The states do not discourage financial irresponsibility at the county and city level.

The school districts are out of control...

So....I'm not sure about the rationale.   Here's what you can do Mr. President.  Let the free markets dictate interest rates...prudent debt investors will take care of the rest.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:29 | 6330711 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Are their not some states that require balanced budgets?

 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:10 | 6330664 The_Dude
The_Dude's picture

Yep... Imagine 400 million socialists feverishly trying to steal from each other.  It will be a glorious explosion in the end!!!

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:45 | 6330750 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

It is ALREADY happening in the EU.

From day one of the European parliament.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:41 | 6330873 Wannabe_Oracle
Wannabe_Oracle's picture

Yep!

"we just haven't gone far enough yet".

Alternatively -- ""we just haven't gone 'fair' enough yet"".

;-)

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:49 | 6330612 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Hmm, would this be an elected EU government -or- yet more appointed numpties on the payroll of the banks? 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:56 | 6330627 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

All numpties are banker numpties...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:02 | 6330643 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Who owns the German Central Bank?

Roth-schilds and their privately owned partners?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:30 | 6330698 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Is it located in Frankfurt?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:32 | 6330717 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

I have seen reports saying the Roth-schilds are Trillionaires.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:18 | 6330683 Salah
Salah's picture

Better as a starter for this USE....we'll give you all our blacks.  That'll get you into the spirit of things!

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:19 | 6331817 Arnold
Arnold's picture

They already have the towel heads and gracefully say  "No Thank You".

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:59 | 6330622 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Yup. They broke it so now they get to "fix" it.

There were numerous discussions about the need for complete economic and POLITICAL integration as being a prerequisite to the implementation of a common currency union before the EU was even brought into existance.

But they were afraid the muttonheads wouldn't want to give up their quaint and outdated national sovereignties...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:04 | 6330648 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Mutton is popular in Britain.

And New Zealand.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:14 | 6330672 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Muttonheads are what's on the menu...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:53 | 6330771 Badsamm
Badsamm's picture

They surrendered before the teams were even decided.
I guess when you are French, why wait.

What is his approval rating any how?

Tue, 07/21/2015 - 17:25 | 6338798 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

@Badsamm

So stupid, the 'ol French surrender jokes !

All this ugly disdain and nasty jokes come from the firm refusal of the French to join America in Irak, in 2003.

Since France refused to go to Iraq, American warmongers and neo-cons made French army look like cowards – as a punishment.

But History has proved the French were right, and that the WMD were only a dirty trick to serve as a pretext.

Nevertheless, the hate of American warmongers against France remains still there, well alive, even in ZH.

This stale hate still shows through "innocent good jokes" about the “surrender monkeys” and their white flags

As for the rest, the French can be proud of their Military History:

According to the British historian Niall Ferguson, since 387 BC, France has fought 168 major wars against such badasses as the Roman Empire, the British Army and the Turkish forces. Their track record isn't too shabby, either: They've won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10 times.

This makes France the most successful military power in European history - in terms of number of fought and won …

The French have succeeded to conquer and guard the largest country in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_France

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:10 | 6330802 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

**AHEM**   Tylers.....you missed this part.

Draghi called for...... the creation of a shared treasury within 10 years...... in a joint proposal with politicians including European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and Eurogroup President Jeroen Dijsselbloem last month.

In the words of the Joker......" And here....we....GO ! "

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:56 | 6331107 3Wishes
3Wishes's picture

Ready the Guillotines.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:22 | 6331824 Arnold
Arnold's picture

Arkansas stone or bastard file, Boss?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:45 | 6330588 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

So the real problem behind today's financial crisis was that theGlobalists who designed it and the unelected EU bureaucrats who ran it didn't have enough power.

 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:50 | 6330611 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

The people causing the crisis,usually use the excuse that they dont have enough power to prevent it.

lol

Its idiotic.

 

A United States of europe would not work as the United States.

 

The US was created over a blank land-scape free from geopolitical alignments for the most part.... a few indians to kick into the ocean a few trade deals etc.. and the country was formed and manifested as a living union.

To undo 1000s of years of war, strife, racial tension , oppression and poverty in Europe between states.... not likely to happen.

 

The only way to make a "United States of Europe" is if WWIII happened and there was only one nation left standing in Europe.... such a nation would have to be forged out of the kiln of war, not politics.

Greece is Greece, France is France..... Germany is... nazi land... nothing is going to change anytime soon.

 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:33 | 6330646 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

"The only way to make a "United States of Europe" is if WWIII happened..."


You are catching on to the Globalist plan fast. They don't like it when you do that. But if complete integration at the EU still doesn't work then they will have to make it even larger somehow.

And yes it is idiotic unless you are a Globalist psychopath who wants to control the world. I say "world" because this preplanned amalgamation, for better or worse (u-pik) doesn't end in Europe.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:10 | 6330663 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

USA in the past spoke only English, or the immigrants soon learned English.

But today the NWO seeks to destroy USA by diversity.

US of Europe will not work until they all speak one language,

but massive immigration of foreigners is again contrary to that goal.

Maybe TPTB do not want a unified Europe or USA?

Divide and Conquer.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:25 | 6331829 Arnold
Arnold's picture

And we bought alot of it.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:40 | 6330589 Ladioss
Ladioss's picture

Fifteen years ago I thought the insults the yankees were throwing at us were outrageous; now I realize they were merely ahead of their time.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:43 | 6330593 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

It's pretty amazing how this is all going according to plan.  One world government, a few big steps at a time.  I'm sure the Asian Pacific Trade Cluster Fuck (APTCF) has some provision somewhere about how significant elements of U.S. trade policy must be approved by bankers as well.  

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:53 | 6330608 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Trudat, LTER. The plan for M&A of sovereign nations has been long in the works, and Greece is being used as the excuse for the implementation. First Europe, then North and South Americas, then Asia.

People always say you can't just M&A away thousands of years of generational European hatred amongst the tribes. After a couple more generations of pussification, we will get to see how true that is...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:10 | 6330662 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

While i agree with what you are saying, no fucking way this happens to the USSA.  The "folks" simply will not stand for it my friend.  It will be worse than the Civil War...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:36 | 6330731 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

There are many forces at play, amigo. Media and gub forces are minor compared to the damage done to us by environmental means. In twenty years, there will be a shitload of autistic people everywhere and whatever local-gubberning units (NWO-centralized or not) world-over will want to move further into the concretization of cradle-to-grave "care" systems.

You're thinking of 20th centry grandpas who won't stand for such things. Give it two more generations...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:46 | 6330741 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/01/15/gm-bt-corn-causes-infertility-rat...

 

Let's thank the god's we're not rats. In the meantime someone should really check out the effects on humans. 

You know... unless that's a propriety trade secret or something important.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:51 | 6330764 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Lab rats are used for testing Human biology.

Then there is the story about vaccines containing secret ingredients that cause the immune system to destroy fertility in women.

Probably something similar for men.

Not to mention all the estrogen-like chemicals in plastics and the environment causing sperm count declines and male feminization.

The NWO loves Gays who don't reproduce biologically.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:52 | 6330767 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

That's why they want everyones guns.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:12 | 6330667 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Or hatred against the Tribe?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:40 | 6330739 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Pussification through fear of imprisonment from the denial of questionable/false accounts that are held to be universal truths.

We can expect similar treatment of nine-elevs questioners here.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:36 | 6331034 greenskeeper carl
greenskeeper carl's picture

it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. portugal, spain, then italy are up next. The same thing is going to happen there. None of those countries are remotely sustainable. I always have beer and popcorn ready. SHould be entertaining to watch.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:37 | 6330730 ZerOhead
Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:27 | 6330840 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

" It's pretty amazing how this is all going according to plan.  One world government, a few big steps at a time.  I'm sure the Asian Pacific Trade Cluster Fuck (APTCF) has some provision somewhere about how significant elements of U.S. trade policy must be approved by bankers as well.  "

 

The world is a business Mr. Beale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9XeyBd_IuA

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:45 | 6330598 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Those are going to be some pretty big states !!!!

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:46 | 6330600 Took Red Pill
Took Red Pill's picture

It would never work.  Too many different cultures, languages and diversity. Some of these countries have hated each other for ever. The USA has a hard enough time getting along with north & south, red vs. blue.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:59 | 6330635 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Perfect!

Signed,
TPTB

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:16 | 6330679 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Yes, TPTB who wishes for diversity and chaos and destruction of White and nominally Christian nations?

Jewish Freemasonry and all their Satanic spawn.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:47 | 6330602 Ya-way
Ya-way's picture

George Orwell really was an oracle of the highest caliber.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:56 | 6330625 GRDguy
GRDguy's picture

You might even say a Cassandra, considering how few really think about what Orwell wrote.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:47 | 6330605 the_narrator
the_narrator's picture

Problem. Reaction. Solution. 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:21 | 6330827 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Problem. Reaction. Bigger problem.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:51 | 6330615 GRDguy
GRDguy's picture

A quick look at Wikipedia on Greek shipping shows why this is The Great Red Dragon's Snakes In Suits latest attempts to control all of Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_shipping

"Today, shipping is one of the country's most important industries. It accounts for 4.5% of GDP, employs about 160,000 people (4% of the workforce), and represents 1/3 of the country's trade deficit.[2] The Greek Merchant Navy controls 16.2% of the world's total merchant fleet, making it the largest in the world."

The old 1889 book stated that their goal is "to own the earth in fee-simple." They're certainly on their way.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:53 | 6330618 homiegot
homiegot's picture

Be wary for what you wish for.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:57 | 6330631 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

I'm sure he just thought of this and nobody else had this idea in their back pockets.

ne laissez jamais une crise se perdre

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:02 | 6330642 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Shocker I tell ya

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:06 | 6330650 yepyep
yepyep's picture

sounding a lot like a new world order.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:13 | 6330670 permarig
permarig's picture

Nice false flag crisis, huh?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:08 | 6330654 nomofiat
nomofiat's picture

so we can reach that cliff even faster

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:08 | 6330656 red1chief
red1chief's picture

Marine Le Pen will not be allowed by the Empire to run France. Surprising how many people have yet to figure out the degree of power that the Empire holds over its vassals.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:08 | 6330658 Budd Fox
Budd Fox's picture

The feckless idiot will never dare to submit it to a democratic vote that crap. He will be buried.

He will also soon be a footnote of history. The next election Marine Le Pen wil sweep him away, and initiate a Frenchxit....

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:19 | 6330685 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

The EU ignores election results until they get what they want.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:43 | 6331558 Victor999
Victor999's picture

You still believe there exists democracy, don't you!  Poor soul.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:10 | 6330661 TheAntiProgressive
TheAntiProgressive's picture

Ha ha ha ha ha ha, too much.....  Ha ha ha.  The hits keep coming.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:12 | 6330666 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

that way they can call it a "civil" war

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:12 | 6330668 Charles Wilson
Charles Wilson's picture

Herbert W. Arstrong...Paging...Herbert W Armstrong...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:22 | 6330691 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

For a while I received their free magazine in the mail ...

but much of it is now on the internet ...

PTL

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:15 | 6330669 reader2010
reader2010's picture

What they want is The United States of Euro Slaves. 

"Before the abolition of slavery worker was enslaved by law; now by debt and also the absence of anywhere else to go."

- John Kenneth Galbraith,  The Age of Uncertainty: Ep 10 Land and People

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:14 | 6330671 freddymercury
freddymercury's picture

I bet this was on the agenda at Bilderberg 2015. NWO in front of our eyes...nuff said...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:31 | 6330715 lost money
lost money's picture

it was on the Bilderberger agenda more than 50 years ago

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:22 | 6330694 hotrod
hotrod's picture

Sure   let's all pool our money and bail out the PIIGS/investors

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:26 | 6330706 knukles
knukles's picture

FUCK THE NWO

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:29 | 6330713 lost money
lost money's picture

What Germay couldn't win with Panzers, she will win with Euros

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:38 | 6330734 CHC
CHC's picture

And no other than Mr. Hollandaise Sauce will be it's first dictator president.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:41 | 6330744 Richard Whitney
Richard Whitney's picture

If Euros think this is a good idea, by all means, form a United States of Europe.

But first, each member state has to surrender their national sovereignty. This begins by surrendering their seat at the U.N. Then, surrendering seats on any international institution. 

It is either that, or North Carolina, Arkansas and the rest get a seat in the U.N.

In fact, the Euros will dance around this inconvenient requirement of their fantasy that it will be fun to watch the verbal and political contortions of them trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:54 | 6331096 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

wait until they see the bill for having to pay for their own defense after USE deprecates NATO... lol, so much for the socialism budget...

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:40 | 6331554 Victor999
Victor999's picture

We don't nedd your defense.  NATO is not Europe's friend.  The sooner it is gone, the better.  Come to think of it, the sooner the USA is gone the better for all.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:58 | 6331892 Hyjinx
Hyjinx's picture

Here's hoping you never actually have to fight a war anywhere then!

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 20:51 | 6330765 adr
adr's picture

Remember the Rent is Too Damn High party?

I think we need the Heads Gonna Roll Party.

The party platform will be:

If elected all current government officials will have their heads removed from their bodies and the people can play the sport of their choice with the skulls.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:00 | 6330783 Herodotus
Herodotus's picture

The French are always the first to run up the white flag.

Tue, 07/21/2015 - 17:30 | 6338813 Analyse2
Analyse2's picture

@Herodotus

So stupid …

Happily for the US they didn’t surrender at Chesapeake and Yorktown ! The USA wouldn’t exist then …

In fact the French - surrounded by the Germans, English, Dutch, Italians and Spaniards (among others) - succeeded to win and guard the largest country in the very heart of Europe.

They did it by fighting 168 major wars even against such badasses as the Roman Empire, the British Army and the Turkish forces. They've won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10 times.

This makes France the most successful military power in European history - in terms of number of fought and won …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_France

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armed_Forces

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:02 | 6330788 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

One Giant Concentration Camp All Under One Roof.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:15 | 6330813 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

One Nation United Under Zion.

Liberty is demand. Tyranny is submission..

 

Imagine the division fodder and amusement the Zionists will have with this:

"You are being fined for not having the correct mix of Greeks, French, and Finish in your work force."

"Today it was announced that hate-speech against the Danish is on the rise. Minister of Speech Stein said that a new permit for the use of the words "Denmark," "Danish," and "Dane" will now be required. Only 100 euro."

"We're not taking your home, but only giving half of it to a disadvantaged Polish family."

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:37 | 6331549 Victor999
Victor999's picture

Will be Zion.  These 'globalist families' your article refers to are all controllers of the international central banking cartel, a nest of hardcore Zionist believers who intend to force a Zionist led one world government on all.  They will fail - but not before they succeed.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:28 | 6330843 Paracelsus
Paracelsus's picture

One hears about Beppe Grillo and Nigel Farage in the media as often as one sees Fukushima headlines.

It is a strange world.....

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:41 | 6330867 MEFOBILLS
MEFOBILLS's picture

 I’m seeing cognitive dissonance among the commenters here.  

Anybody that derogates the term “socialism” needs to explain how the socialism of Scandinavia seems to work.

True, socialism can be perverted into a rent seeking scheme, where the haves are milked to give to the have nots.

But, the unseen reality of private credit money system is that it has buried rents, which are welfare for the rich.  The middle class tends to fund both the rich and the poor, only this theft is in the form of prices.  Since it is not overt taxation, then the sheeple just think it is normal cost of business.

The modern history of Europe was to NATIONALIZE natural monopolies.   For example, absentee landlords are a rent scheme.  Railroads, roads, sewers, ports, the electromagnetic spectrum; essentially all those things that are inelastic markets, can be monopolized to take rents.

Simply put, rents are unearned income resulting from privilege: absentee land rent where landowner milks their tenant; mineral and natural resource rent where business encloses the land; monopoly rent, and financial interest.   Banker financial interest, or usury is a huge cost to any economy, and it is not productive.

Any economy should aim should be to prevent rent-extracting activities, which are purely predatory transfer payments, an economically unproductive zero-sum or negative sum activity.

The European solution was to take the major public utilities – transportation, communications, the post office, and also education, public health and pensions, and put them in the public domain…that is socialize them

The United States privatized these sectors, but created regulatory commissions to keep prices in line with cost-value.  In the U.S. the railroads did capture the government, which is one problem with revolving door regulation.

Free markets are defined as FREE FROM RENTS, so they have the LOWEST COST VALUE.  Predatory private banking schemers redefined Free Markets as to be Free from Government interference, so they could take invisible rents.

  You are not free if you are an economic slave, and your output is stolen from you via hidden prices.

 

In the U.S., medical costs are 3X that of Japan, and 2X that of Germany.  Who is getting the best cost value for their money?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:05 | 6331144 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

that's easy... it's because Scandanavia, upon inspection, isn't socialist...

sure, they have "progressive" tax schemes and much in the way of welfare programs, but their markets are basically capitalist in nature... their businesses are also mostly free from heavy regulation, protectionism, and ultimately nationalism...

it's also worth pointing out that, if they're to be a measure of "socialist success", you wouldn't know it from looking at their GDP levels... hell, most of them would rank among the poorest states in the USA based on that measure... which leads us to productivity in general, which is an area where the USA far outshines them...

given this, we further surmise that Scandanavians in general not only make less money after taxes but also gross less than many world counterparts...

sure, you have Norway with their oil revenues and in general at face value the poor and downtrodden appear to be taken better care of in Scandanavian countries, but at the end of the day it's still a drag... if they had less socialistic tendencies it could be readily argued that they would be better off for it in many respects...

 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:32 | 6331232 MEFOBILLS
MEFOBILLS's picture

that's easy... it's because Scandanavia, upon inspection, isn't socialist...

 

Fair enough....  Too much socialism can turn into rents as well, as the government sector intrudes into elastic markets, or sticks its nose where it doesn't belong. My point is that the analysis always has to be from a rental cost value standpoint.  Skandinavia seems to be in alignment "sort of" of with reducing cost value, and maybe going a little overboard.

Socialism does lower costs if it is properly applied to inelastic markets.

Personally, I prefer regulation and fixing the pricing mechanism; I'm not too enamoured of giving political power to governments, despite the fact that they do belong in their place.

 

 

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:19 | 6331531 Victor999
Victor999's picture

I prefer regulation and fixing the pricing mechanism

And how do you do that?  Though government offices - unless you propose to privatise the regulators as well. Big, complex industrial economies require big, complex government - that is a fact of nature - no civilisation has ever existed that once matured did not have a big government. 

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 04:10 | 6331633 sagitarius
sagitarius's picture

Exclude from the US productivity the financial industry and US will become a third world country.

The financial industry has a backing of 2mill us soldiers. Nothing else.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 09:49 | 6332174 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

what you don't know about US productivity could fill volumes...

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:23 | 6331536 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

First of all, Scandinavian socialism doesn't work.  As I've said many times before, the average mortgage term in Sweden is over 200 years. When you're taxed so much that you can't afford to pay off a home in one generation, the system is broken.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 21:58 | 6330921 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Pretty sure they should read ZH before making any decisions in that regard.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:08 | 6330951 exartizo
exartizo's picture

Dear Mr. Hollande:

You are a fucking idiot.

Best of Luck,

 

A ZeroHedge Reader

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:18 | 6330981 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Germany already controls Europe.  Hollande is now asking the Germans to let all power be in the hands of a body where Germany will be in a minority and, unlike now, be forced to abide by the dictates of the majority as they decide to hand out German wealth.

I'm sure Merkel, Schauble, and the German electorate will be lining up for that deal.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:37 | 6331249 Lux Fiat
Lux Fiat's picture

Very interesting perspectve.  If this is indeed Hollande's play, it could put a rationale for Dexit back in play.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:08 | 6331520 Victor999
Victor999's picture

Germany does not rule - the international bankers rule.  When will people realise that?  There is no democracy - never has been - it is a farce, a facade placed over oligarchy and always will be until the oligarchy is strong enough to come out into the open - which I think they are close to doing now as they have pretty much elimiated the threat of widespread dissent.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:25 | 6331542 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

Also, since when does an occupied country rule anything?

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:37 | 6331037 Guard1an
Guard1an's picture

Wait, doesn't everyone was to be Amerika? 

Amerika - Rammstein (English Subtitles)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxroiTRg7Tg

 

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:06 | 6331152 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

yes, everyone does, it's just that some would be dipped in boiling oil before they'd admit it...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:30 | 6331227 DutchBoy2015
DutchBoy2015's picture

As someone who lived in the USA for 35 years before escaping I can honestly say you are a deluded brainwashed retard like most Americans.  

I wouldn't move back to the USA for a million bucks. EVER.  I don't even want to visit.

Its a shithole but most people like you aren't even aware of it.  You have become de sensitized .

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:47 | 6331867 gregga777
gregga777's picture

Good riddance. You can have Obama the Indonesian and his transgender thing, too.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 08:10 | 6331917 Hyjinx
Hyjinx's picture

I lived in Holland for 8 years and couldn't stand the suffocating socialism, hyper rule-making/enforcing (if you have Dutch women who needs police?), really awful food (Albert Heijn can kiss my ass), poorly trained MDs (I worked in a hospital, don't get me started), boring-ass landscape and generally shit attitude towards anything involving actual work (must be 5 o'clock - Doei!)  Good luck with the Moroccans as I'm sure things will only get better with them around.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 09:18 | 6332093 Joe A
Joe A's picture

I don't think you are completely right but as a Dutchman (left 10 years ago) I can say there is some merit to it. Mostly I was annoyed with the self censoring, self adjusting social control: do as others do. Don't do something out of the ordinary. And they are self indulgent about it too. It is a suffocating environment. All new neighborhoods are boring and all houses look the same. You often have the impression that nobody lives there cause there are hardly any children out of the street, even in summer.

I still find it a pretty country. IT has a rich culture, history and art. But we have become complacent self indulgent people (like most Western countries) and we wouldn't know what to do if TSHF. Once we were a people that fought a brutal war with the Spanish while at the same time fighting the English, French and Prussians (often all at once), creating a maritime mercantile empire and creating a country out of the sea. That was some time ago. Food was better then too :-)

Mostly I think the weather sucks.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 09:54 | 6332192 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

I bet you hard money I travel more internationally in a year than you've traveled your whole life... buddy, I've seen shithole countries and the USA stands faaaaaaaar above that... hell, I'd take a Detroit suburb before the favelas in Sao Paulo, just to provide one example since anecdotes around here tend to be taken as trends (fucking idiots)...

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:30 | 6331228 DutchBoy2015
DutchBoy2015's picture

As someone who lived in the USA for 35 years before escaping I can honestly say you are a deluded brainwashed retard like most Americans.  

I wouldn't move back to the USA for a million bucks. EVER.  I don't even want to visit.

Its a shithole but most people like you aren't even aware of it.  You have become de sensitized .

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:06 | 6331798 Joe A
Joe A's picture

I read some of your postings. You served in the USAF right?

What made you ultimately decide to leave the US (and move back to Holland?)?

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:05 | 6331515 Victor999
Victor999's picture

Most people of the world just want Americans to disappear somewhere.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:49 | 6331280 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

California Uber Alles.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:17 | 6331186 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Classic and absurdly transparent Hegelian dialectic...

Problem

Crisis

Solution...

 

These people are ridiculous.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:29 | 6331225 Prober
Prober's picture

I do not see any difference between Hollande's mouth and ass because shit pours out of both orifices.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:35 | 6331242 litemine
litemine's picture

Moar Government................

NIGHT WATCHMAN

Once upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert.

Congress said, "Someone may steal from it at Night."

So they created a night watchman position and hired a person for the job.

Then Congress said, "How does the watchman do his job without instruction?"

So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions, and one person to do time studies.

Then Congress said, "How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?"

So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people. One was to do the studies and one was to write the reports.

Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?"

So they created two positions: a time keeper and a payroll officer then hired two people.

Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?"

So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an Administrative Officer, Assistant Administrative Officer, and a Legal Secretary.

Then Congress said, "We have had this command in operation for one year and we are $918,000 over budget, we must cut back."

So they Laid-Off the Night Watchman.

Sun, 07/19/2015 - 23:43 | 6331265 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

As long as their official language is english, they'll be fine.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 00:08 | 6331333 JoJoJo
JoJoJo's picture

President 0 is using a massive federal housing database to determine how he can push minorities (brotesters) into better (whiter) living areas. Sort of like of  bussing peeps - to permanent homes instead of schools. Why cannot a  United States of Europe force posher parts of Europe to make permanent living arrangements for Greeks? Why should Monaco and the Rieviera only house non Greeks?

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:02 | 6331512 Victor999
Victor999's picture

the real question is can Germany build on the Hollande momentum

Who the fuck wrote this, a German?  "Hollande's momentum"?  Who is he kidding?  Do they seriously believe the European people are ready for Oceania governmed by Frankfurt? If this happens, it will not be because of the people of Europe - it wil be a coup by the bankers and their EU technocrats and forced upon the people.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 03:39 | 6331608 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

wait a moment. in Gerge Orwell's "1984" there are three superpowers: Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia

since Oceania is roughly the old British Commonwealth plus the US, i.e. roughly the English-speaking world, and Eastasia is the Chinese led bloc...

then you would have to correct your phrase into: "Do you seriously believe the European Peoples are ready for Eurasia governed by Frankfurt?"

to which I ask: and how is it that it's Paris that is making such a proposal? which leads again to the question: what is about Paris that it's so difficult to keep the eyes on it?

Paris makes a proposal, eyes shift to Berlin and Frankfurt. Paris refuses to follow the banners to Iraq, the result is "Cheese Eating Surrendering Monkeys with Freedom Fries"

Paris shift the whole discussion about Greece.... eyes back to Berlin, Athens and back to Frankfurt

did the French invent a kind of political discussion stealth device? something that makes English speakers immediately talk about something else, whenever they do something?

or are we simply at peak propaganda, the point where eventually all those false memes accumulate to a breaking point?

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:28 | 6331544 onmail
onmail's picture

Is that what the American poodle saying?

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:30 | 6331546 GoldenDonuts
GoldenDonuts's picture

The people running the EU couldn't undersand what the founding fathers of the states shit out after a big meal.  Forget about understanding the logic, principles, morals, ethics and good will of the people who fought for and won the USA.  Unfortunately today's leadership in the US doesn't get it either.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 04:03 | 6331627 sagitarius
sagitarius's picture

Founding father of the EU are outspoken NAZIS.

German Belgian and Dutch nazis.

TO the hell with the whole EU!

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 07:42 | 6331855 gregga777
gregga777's picture

They understand a bullet.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 02:48 | 6331564 mog
mog's picture
French President Calls For The Creation Of United States Of Europe

Pray God that sanity will return to France and all of Europe.

Marine le Pen.

French President 2017.

The new Jeanne d'Arc.

Mon, 07/20/2015 - 03:27 | 6331599 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

LOL. "In other words, France just called for the creation of the United States Of Europe, where the dominant power (Germany) is in charge, and where the people of all the smaller, weaker countries, pardon pro forma European states, are merely slaves. See Greece."

simply amazing, eh? Hollande, putting himself at the head of the combined eurozone socialists just intervened in the German-Greek spat, then proposes a eurozone parliament and budget...

... and ZH's editors use this proposal, reminiscent of "Juncker's Phantom EU Army" to harp off on the "simplified populist" meme of Germany being "the dominant power in charge" with of course "all the others mere slaves"

in short, France can lead and shift all kinds of intra-european discussions, together with it's key allies... but the "Freedom Fries" propaganda is stronger, and dominates the English-speaking discussion

then, of course, the "United States of Europe" meme kicks in, leading to all the anti-American discussions of how this is madness, and then the comments about the UN, so dear to a subset of Americans

take a big breath and look again, slowly, and just the facts:

France's Hollande proposed that 19 countries using the EUR ought to set up a common budget, and elect a common parliament to manage it

first, where is the freedom of contract and the sovereignty discussion, here? according to the critics, those 19 ought not to be allowed to do such a thing? and who decides that, pray?

second, if you look it more closely, isn't that a huge middle or warning finger raised to the UK? in the sense of: we can make the EU completely irrelevant, by shifting to a different alliance?

third, isn't France a nuclear power that once even said goodbye to NATO?

the problem here is that the ZH discussion is already so mired in patently false propagandistic memes that a proper view of reality has become too difficult

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