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Greeks Get First Look At Their Future: Long Bank Lines And Punishing Taxes
Although the details of Greece’s third bailout program have yet to be finalized, Monday marked the beginning of a new dawn for Greeks. Last week, PM Alexis Tsipras forced a set of draconian "reforms" through parliament and sacked political rivals, effectively legislating away the country’s sovereignty while condemning the Greek people to a fate of even tougher austerity and ensuring that despite rhetoric out of Athens, "normality" will not return to Greece for a very long time.
Greek banks reopened and as expected there were long lines. On the bright side, the queues were described as "orderly." From AP:
In downtown Athens, people lined up in an orderly fashion as the banks unlocked their doors at 8 a.m., taking a number and reading the paper as they waited for their turn at the till.
Many restrictions on transactions, including cash withdrawals, remained, however.
The Greek government kept the daily cash withdrawal limit at 60 euros ($65) but added a weekly limit of 420 euros ($455) that will be available beginning Sunday. This means depositors who don't make it to the bank on Monday to withdraw cash could pull out 120 euros ($130) on Tuesday instead, and so on, so Greeks don't have to feel they need to visit an ATM every day.
Bank customers will still not be able to cash checks, only deposit them into their accounts, and they will not be able to get cash abroad with their credit or cash cards, only make purchases. There are also restrictions on opening new accounts or activating dormant ones.
Meanwhile, the VAT hike - one of the most contentious "red lines" from Greece’s negotiations with creditors - kicked in. The tax rose to 23% from 13% on everything from salt to firewood. Restaurants and taxi fares are also affected. Just call it an EMU member fee.
Additionally, Greece gave the go ahead for Europe to pay itself back for previous loans to Athens. Over the weekend, the country received an EFSM bridge loan for €7 billion - €6.8 billion was used on Monday to repay creditors, including the ECB. As noted on Sunday, "now that a new circular funding scheme has been devised that will allow Greece to make a €3.5 billion (€4.2 billion with interest) payment to Mario Draghi on Monday, the ELA liquidity drip can continue."
Or, as some pointed out, Greece gets to keep a transaction fee of about €300 million for facilitating a €6.8 billion payment from the Creditors to the Creditors.
As for the possibility that Greece could see its debt written down as part of a push by Brussels to appease the IMF (and by extension, the US Treasury), Angela Merkel looks to have driven the final nail in that coffin on Sunday. Here’s Bloomberg:
"A classic haircut -- writing down 30 or 40 percent of the debt -- this cannot happen in a currency union," Merkel says in interview with German broadcaster ARD. "You can have it outside a currency union, but you can’t have it in a currency union."
“Part of the wish for Greece to remain in the euro area is that such a haircut is not possible,” Merkel says
Merkel says euro leaders will discuss extension of Greek debt maturities and easing interest rates “when the first successful assessment of the program being negotiated now is completed.”
“Exactly this question will be discussed then,” Merkel says on debt relief. “Not now, but then.”
In other words, there can be "re-profiling" (as suggested by the EU Commission), but there will be no writedown, and indeed Christine Lagarde seemed resigned to the impossibility of a haircut last week.
So that’s it - a rather depressing and anticlimactic end to the Syriza "revolution" and, by extension, to "hope" in Greece. More austerity is now the law and Athens is once again completely beholden to the German purse string.
But hey, at least there are no tanks in the streets.
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EUR support still north of 75% in Greece.
Which means only 25% of me feels bad for the Greek population.
More brainwashed sheeple then. And this from a country that brought us philosophy, logic, democracy and some of the greatest minds in antiquity . Sad the see how far the mighty have fallen...
And so it ends not with a roar, but a wimper. Can't wait for bailout number four.
yup strike four, they change the rules for eeeeeevvverything.
The Greeks didn't get the gov't they needed, but the gov't they deserved.
The pensioners (high % of population) will not give up their euro pensions for drachma ones. (self preservation principle in play.)
You can't buy cars and electronic gadgets priced in euros or dollars with drachmas
Resistance is futile.
Please let this be a lesson to fools in the USSA who think voting has any meaning whatsoever. I am fully aware that OXI was not a vote out of the Euro, but it most certainly was a vote agaist austerity. What happened? Austerity and effective loss of sovereignty in one fell swoop.
Witness also the sheeple bleating in neat, orderly lines to eat crumbs from the gov trough. The sheeple are weak and desire comfort, even if it is self destructive comfort, and TPTB know it.
An evil, corrupt power/banking structure, and populations desiring perceived "comfort" at any price is a dangerous combination.
Gotta love the banksters...loaning Greece more money to pay themselves back...talk about predators.
Greece may have been known as the cradle of Democracy but right now it's the street sleeping bag of Debtocracy.
The very big risks of the Greek debt crisis
they chose death.
they did not know they would get death by pooga pooga.
Math Problem:
How many Molotov cocktails can be made if your daily allowance of Euros is only 60 AND the VAT on gasoline is raised to 23%?
pods
Maybe they aren't lined up to make with withdrawals. Maybe they are queued to make deposits!!! Did that ever cross your mind???!!! Huh??!!!............. Yeah- me either.
Well, I suppose the good news is that the lines will go away for them as soon as the banks run out of money again.
good math problem: more then if you have devaluing Drachmas and oil is an import, to be paid in dollars?
Right thing to do is to claim VAT back on those Molotovs and throw stones instead, use gasoline for something more productive, just keep receipts. Besides, I don't think rioting would do anything to Greece at this point as its sovereignty was signed away. Further, Hollande is calling for United States of European to be created, so member States will have much less autonomy, Greece is just a humble beginning.
A: As much gas that's in George's car. The gas cap isn't locked and he boinked the Peristophiles girl I had eyes on. F' him.
If I took a wild animal and competed for it's food it would tear me to pieces.
If however I feed it for a long time freely it would loose all instinct to look out for itself and dutifully wait for it's hand out - as I slowly starved it to death. Using Pavlov's conditioning I will have subjugated an entire people, and thereafter their progeny would grow up to learn compliance, creating a multi-generational defeated people - kinda like Britian and their multigenerational mortgages.
How else can you explain this total apathy in the Greek people...?
That's spot-on analysis.
I don't know why you're only getting voted down. Saying the Greeks deserve a shitty, irresponsible, duplicitous government says nothing bad about the Greek people. All it says is they weren't vigilant enough to keep things honest and debt-free.
Before you point fingers at me because I obviously live in an english-speaking developed nation, I'm well aware that most of the West is guilty of this shit. And yes, we will get the governments we deserve. Not necessarily at an individual level, but collectively, yeah.
Fiat... is a helluva drug.
this is the perfect allegory.
"he was a habitual-line stepper."
'what, is he gonna smack me back?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJB0BkJlbbw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z63dJbcl1VU
Greeks get first look at their new reality. We get to look in the fish bowl and see our future. That would make a more accurate headline.
As for the roar and wimper thing, as there seems to be an resigned acceptance from those who are aware and a look of vacant stupor from the rest of the herd, I forsee wimpers all round followed by roars of indignation when the EBT doesn't work.
There will be war because the politicians will support the oligarchs solutions. They're here to help and ready to bail out by offering us some more candy. Gotta love 'em (or hang 'em).
No, it ends with emigration.
My wife keeps saying that, lets get out emigrate... My question, just where in hell do we go to leave behind PC, Socialism, dumbed down schools and progressives in all their sick forms.. Nowhere thats where..
The queen of Germany says, there can be no debt write downs or haircuts in a currency union????
Holy shit these Kenyesian lunatics say something more insane everyday!!!
Talk about uping the ante! You can't leave the Ponzi, you can't write down bad debt in the Ponzi, taxes can go up forever in the Ponzi, assets prices rise forever in the Ponzi, AND everyone is taken care of from craddle to grave in the Ponzi!!
Completely, unsustainable, fantastical, delusional bullshit beyond reason and common sense levels that a 8 year can understand is insane, yet this is the planetary economic structure we live in!!
Major war, collapse, and reshuffle is unavoidable at this point, let's just hope the lunatics want to have something left at the end, and don't unleash the nukes!
The children ARE the colateral for round 4.
I hope it never goes to round 4.
or you could say that 75% of Greeks aren't Neo-Keynesian enough to support the return of a Drachma in the hands of a government that would immediately devalue it, as they themselves stated
"Meanwhile, the VAT hike - one of the most contentious "red lines" from Greece’s negotiations with creditors - kicked in. The tax rose to 23% from 13% on everything from salt to firewood. Restaurants and taxi fares are also affected. Just call it an EMU member fee. "
meanwhile, I don't call it a "EMU member fee". I call it a "EU member fee"
the VAT hike is really the nearly only thing that was dear to the EU "org" based in Brussels, and for a simple reason: VAT goes into Brussel's calculations of how much members contribute into the EU's budget
so the European Parliament MEPs are generally applauding this VAT hike back to the inane levels that are common here in the EU
10% price hike on everything for Euro membership.
Pay up Greeks. You want it -- you got it.
Once upon a time, my father told me the following joke:
"Do you know why divorce is so expensive? Because it's worth it."
I guess the Greeks haven't heard this one before.
+1, excellent point. one, though, that is a bit lost on many eurozoners, though. divorce is less of a sport, here, particularly in the South of Europe
many there would point out to you that divorce is the most expensive and least worth thing evah
you can't have an extended family that supports you in a crisis if you are too cavalier about your familial bonds
lol, truths of life, u get what you pay for except when u r a greater fool, opps mirror tyme, ha...
good day
This divorce will look to have been cheap in retrospect.
10% price hike on all items where people do pay taxes. and if you have a good look at Greece... well, you have to have seen it to believe it
the first modern Greek word I learned was, after all, Fakelaki. they are tax-free
Agreed, but 13% to 23% is not a 10% hike of course, it is a 77% hike.
German company biggest tax evader in Greece. Who knew?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-company-is-top-tax-evader-in-greece/...
Are you totally dumbed down, or are you merely spreading malicious lies?
The pollsters that are telling you the "75% want the euro" lie are the same ones that were telling you the YES side would win the referendum. How did that work out!
Get a clue or STFU for fuck sakes, tired of running into you parroting bullshit on here and trying to pass it off as wisdom.
sure. which pollsters? or, better, who's pollsters?
there is a very simple way to check on those things, in the eurozone. talk with the people, or look which political parties are comfortable with those stances, enough to make them official policy agenda points
which method did you use before you wrote "Are you totally dumbed down, or are you merely spreading malicious lies?"? a third one?
Greece has manifested its destiny. They have chosen the path of least resistance.
Let me leave you with a quote from H.L. Mencken
“Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”
and anti-democratic propaganda is the pathetic effort of a few to make the majority believe that they are stupid, ignorant and ought to stay at home insted of going out to vote
when it comes to this kind of propaganda, the "Old Oligarch" of ancient Athens set the standard, and since then it's all downward. but propaganda does not have to be good, just effective
Democracy is alive and well. Greece, the U.S, all shining examples. When the POTUS has expended its political capital, simply rinse and repeat. Democratic, then Republican. Back and forward. Wow, democracy in action. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Clinton? Wow, democracy. Power to the people.
Because Bernie Sanders will save us! He will slay the evil bankers, and fight for higher wages. With his fiat printing machine he will create full employment. Bernie 'the new hope' Sanders for POTUS 2016. If you believe Bernie will save you, you need wake the fuck up!
in my understanding, in a democracy political parties... die, split, merge and change, forever anxious to lose power and land in the dustbin of history. this happened and happens, in Greece
And it worked fucking well too. Democracy in action! /sarc
democracy is a sick joke. I see how stupid most people in the US are every day. Go to a fucking walmart and just look around, and these are the people who ge to enforce their will on us all. no wonder this country is so fucked.
As for the greeks, they wanted this shit. The euro is so important to them, this is the price you have to pay. Give the fucking worthless government 23% of everything you buy so it can fuck you some more. Serf's up. WHat a bunch of brainless chumps. any kind of sympathy i had for them is gone.as HL mencken said, democracy is the theory that people deserve to get what they want, and get it good and hard.(or something like that). this is the greeks getting exactly what they want, good and hard
Easy there with feeling superior to the Greeks, This is coming everywhere and there is really nothing anybody can do about it. The forces against us are far superior in intelligence than us. So if you fight them it will just take a little longer.
For the Christians out there, our only hope is the Second Coming.
ah, I see. what you are looking for is the "Moses Party", the one that promises you a way out of the Land of Slavery into the Promised Land of Plenty, while separating the waters of the Red Sea for the Chosen People and closing them back on the Oppressors of the People
well, whenever I think about Moses I have to admit that he did lead his people to Israel. I just wonder if he ever mentioned to them that it would take them... forty years
and I wonder if anybody would have followed him if he would ever had mentioned that pesky little detail
"Fuckin' Moses...
We were just here last year."
I'm not shopping for any specific party to save humanity. We are already being saved. We already elected our savior, Barrack Obama. I fully entrust the supposed 'leader' of the 'free' world to make the best decisions for humanity. Please step into the plastic crusher.
We aren't going to make it. Our mental viruses are in control. Cognitive bias, blind spot bias, normalcy bias, group think, cognitive dissonance, corruption, but sure, the 'Moses party' will lead this virus laden pack of retards to the promised land.
Somedays I almost agree with the sentiment shared in publications like the Club of Rome's - The First Global Revolution.
Fuck you. At least they have a plan and the resources to carry out their will in blatent contempt of humanity, with the so called 'democratic theatre' they pacify our simple minds with. Why allow plague like proportions of useless eaters to mutilate the environment when there is no real need for this to occur.
I wouldn't be so quick to believe the polls. Remember how they had the YES/NO vote to the referendum being neck and neck? And then the polling companies had to stay close to the truth because they knew their results would be put to the test with the real results of the referendum. Now they can just make things up... On the other hand, many people probably have bought all the lies that the mainstream media and political parties dish out in Greece about the euro being their only hope.
Hey Greece, how does my ass taste? Bunch of fucking pussies, whatchya gonna do?
-Alex Tsipras
"EUR support still north of 75% in Greece."
Imagine that. Three-quarters of the Greek plebs implicitly understand that the only thing between them and a swift, but permanent, return to pre-WW2 life is the euro: one cannot buy oil with drachma, they will have to produce something valuable to exchange for dollars, euros, or oil. Just like every nation that doesn't use the USD or EUR nor extract and refine their own oil. Everything else is a distraction.
Has Greece run out of fiat?
No, just hope.
Even Max Keiser has given up on Greece.
recycled humanity, like venzuala. life isn't fair and we are not equal no matter what the gov trys to dictate...
Serfdom is the goal and plan, deleveraging never happened, ppl just stopped saying it. Greece just a snack for global debt beast. New World Order here we come.
Bad humor, but I'll take the downvotes just to share something not so apocalyptic:
https://twitter.com/pdacosta/status/622387122855653380
Broke Back Bank !
Prob is THEY won't be cutting back on the legumes.
Take a GOOD look...
This is what "something for nothing" ultimately always looks like.
Eventually this movie will be playing in theatres across most of the world.
and a greater fool falls for the styke almost every tyme. no wonder the oligarch exists.
I'd like to request the disaster with the happy ending, please.
The Underground Economy will get a big boost from this! Free markets!
I bet people will start paying employees in firewood, silver coin, old drachmas, foreign currency or dental work, etc., to get around both the banks AND the taxes.
What will the do when the Eurocrats ban cash then?
smokes, booze, hashish, gold, silver...whatever is most convenient and accepted.
and how do "Eurocrats" ban cash? in the eurozone, only national governments can do such things, including capital controls, bank holidays, etc.
and if you don't understand this point, then you have not understood anything about both the EU and the eurozone
I'm afraid you don't understand the direction the Eurocrats want to take the EU: they want political union, a united states of Europe, or Fourth Reich, depending on your POV.
interesting. and those "Eurocrats", are they behind the EU or are they behind the eurozone?
just recently even ZH reported on France making a proposal: setting up a eurozone parliament and budget, i.e. on full club for the 19 countries that use the EUR
is that more "Eurocratic" or less "Eurocratic", this small hint that if the EU goes further in a certain direction, that the focus of the alliances could shift?
Four Freedoms: freedom of movement of capital, labour, services and goods. not everybody really likes this great compromise, it is nevertheless "all what the EU is"
your "war on cash" is not included. that war is being fought elsewhere in a hotter way
btw, why should we ever want to copy the USA? because Churchill used those words to describe something he saw clearly before his eyes?
and "Fourth Reich" reminds us about the "Third Reich"... attempt. what about the First and Second? they lasted one millennia each, shouldn't they be more relevant then something that did not become more then thirty years old? oh, I forgot: the History Channel
what have you seen in the past couple years that makes you think individual nations have more say than the ECB? if the ECB, and maybe one or two of the strongr nations wants a ban on cash, you think it won't happen because of how some law is written? when has that ever stopped them?
that's my whole point, actually. the EU tries to push the four freedoms, while it's national governments that try, from time to time, to push against them
Denmark is into the "war on cash", for example. Britain is debating how to discriminate against Poles in favour of Commonwealthers and the British
Greece and Cyprus had bank holidays and capital controls, while France recently re-introduced some border controls
Q: how do "Eurocrats" ban cash?
A: require all salaries and wages to be paid via bank account. Then intruduce fees for cashing out from your bank account. Then stop printing cash as noone using it (saving on cashing out)
eh? why? we are not in the US, we are in the eurozone. the "war against cash" is not that far, here
cash. EUR notes. the "Underground Economy", what we call the black markets, here, is fully fuelled by those EUR banknotes
The banking restrictions have eased somewhat, however.
A few strokes on ECB/IMF keyboards should take care of this, with perhaps a titch of physical fiat printing.
When speaking of a haircut, Merkel said "You can have it outside a currency union, but you can’t have it in a currency union."
My question is why not? Is this like a law of nature?
Banker laws. You can't leave, you can't default, you can't work your way out. It's the ultimate "you can't get there from here" situation.
Well, to be honest, they could have. Just that their government decided that actually governing their own country was just too scary and difficult, so now they let banks govern their country for them.
words. it's not the Troika, it's "the institutions". it's not "debt relief", it's "further help"
your "law of nature", btw, does not apply to the phenomenon previously called "dollarization", i.e. when a completely foreign currency is nevertheless the prevalent currency
Because they (German banks) don't want to be paid back currency of less value
If Greece stays in the union, they they use the same currency that Germany dictates or controls through the EU.
But if Greece leaves the EU, then Germany would want haircuts to make up for it. For instance they wouldn't accept a one for one trade for drachma to euro. They would demand that the drachma be devalued so it would take many drachmas for each euro.
Herding sheeple has never been easier.
Banksters Inc. is loving every minute of it!
Pay attention Los Angeles and NYC.
This will lead to the (further) rise of a black economy and barter (already happening in some places). SME will be finished off even further and any successful business will be bought up by foreign companies. Any Greek asset (harbor, gold mines, potential holiday resorts, drinking water, etc.) will be privatized with the promise of 'better service for lower prices' (it will be exactly the opposite as with any privatization. Their coastline will turned into the Costa Brava with selected sites for the 'happy few'. It is a corporate and financial takeover of a country and it will be the blueprint for the rest of the continent.
As in any casino, the house always wins.
WTF @ bridge loan....WTF at tapping emergency IMF reserves to pay back, umm, the IMF...a third bailout to repay the first 2 bailouts. Mate, this thing is so fcked up its not funny. The c*nts are broke. Declare bankruptcy ffs or nark my words, I predict riots and civilian war.
The GM bailout was America’s Greece moment.
Where are all the Volt supporters today??
Thoughts required on gold, gold standard, and gold exchange etc.
So you have gold. Say you have 10,000 tonnes. Now what? Back 20% of the fiat currency supply with gold?
So, if you have a finite amount of gold, say 10,000 tonnes, and you have fixed the price of gold at 2,000 an oz, but you have reached the limit of central bank fiat that can be created. What to do?
Thoughts please on gold standard and gold exchange etc.
Example. Gold backed currency at 20% gold reserve. 100 oz of gold total supply. An oz is fixed at $1. How much fiat can be created? If 100% reserve ratio it would be $100. So for 20% gold reserve ratio, it would be $500.
Now what. How do you expand fiat supply if need be? Easy. Reduce reserve ratio, or increase dollar value of gold. So, at 20% gold reserve ratio, 100 oz total gold supply, and at $10 an oz, how much fiat can exist?
Answer. $5000.
So if you hold $5 in cash when an oz of gold is $1 and gold reserve ratio is 20%, and you wake up the next day and the price of an oz is now $10, then your claim to gold is now?
You cash has lost value. Your claim to an oz of gold is now 1/2 an ounce. If there was a sudden urge to redeem fiat for gold, and the people lost faith in their currency, then the price of gold could be elevated to essentially deflate the value of cash. Happy days
Frankly, I'd rather see these ol' pensioners lining up at the bank every day to get their money out, than seeing them at the coffee shop sipping coffee and complaining about how bad they have got it. For the record, if you can afford your coffee, then things aren't that bad.
At least now they're doing a bit of work for their not so hard earned pensions.
If Greece wants things to get better, than start working. Develop your industry, compete with other nations. You now have ANOTHER chance to do things right.
You'd be surprised how quickly this debt burden disappears once you restructure your economy and get it working right. Remember you have an economy that is only 40% of what it could be (wrt to debt per capita). Focus on developing your GDP, and not by handing out government subsidizes! Liberate your economy! Your business tax rate is only 28%, one of the cheapest in the EU, now get rid of all the stupid rigid laws you have that block and protect competition.
That cannot grow 28% VAT!! who is going to travel there to be taxed to pieces.. If they do travel there it will be a smarting lesson to not return..
That cannot grow 28% VAT!! who is going to travel there to be taxed to pieces.. If they do travel there it will be a smarting lesson to not return..
You are confusing income tax with VAT.
VAT is a SALES tax, not income tax.
And BTW, all of Scandanavia already has a 25% VAT
So each time a manufacturer or reseller touches a product, its price increases by 25%? And European governments can't live off of that? VAT is pure evil as it is an attempt to create and collect massive taxes that instead of showing up as a line item at time of purchase, are secreted into the cost of everything you buy. Does anyone in Europe have the slightest clue how much they are paying in taxes as a percentage of their actual spending?
The only way to have a government that does not become tyrannical is to have transparency and accountability... the things most governments work hardest to prevent.
People understand the need for taxes and our biggest complaint against them is not the amount, but the waste and fraud involved with procuring them and spending them.
Let taxes stand on their own. By making them transparent, we might see how long a government can stand without theft and deceit.
Europe, this is your life under the hob-nailed boots of the Fourth Reich.
Greek National Socialist Government Workers Party .... or GREE-k N-ational S-ocialist .... the Greens !
The price of staying in the Euro on Southern Europe is going to get higher with time.
The Euro is the new Berlin Wall of Europe, only this time its not East-West anymore, but North-South.
Ordinary Greeks have to tighten their belts .... ordinary Germans have to loosen their purse strings .... remind me again what the Greek government employees and pensioners are giving up ?
An economic system built upon fraud and illusions cannot be sustained. All that participate will suffer. Germans think they are in the right, and contractually they mostly are, but to demand to be made whole will burn the economy to the ground.
As I explain to my fellow boomers regarding SS, just because we paid and were promised does not mean we can demand the contract be fulfilled, as to do so would pretty much insure that the yutes would be coming around in the short bus to take all us old farts to the Soylent factory.
Reconciliation to reality is a bitch
This will lead to more and more black economy, so less and less tax income, so more and more austerity and tax-raising, so more and more black economy, so less and less tax income...
Greece will NEVER be able to pay back its debt. For that and many other reasons, making it an UE colony won't work.
Tsipras/Varoufakis (who botched the negociations by antagonizing everyone without even having a plan B in its pocket) are criminal clowns.
Greece is fixed because internet banking has been working.
Welcome to the New World Order of DEBT Enslavement bitches.
The tax rose to 23% from 13% on everything from salt to firewood. Restaurants and taxi fares are also affected. Just call it an EMU member fee.
All governments have exceeded the people's tax tolerance. This has been obvious in the case of Greece. They've had a chronic problem with people avoiding taxes.
Governments first grow through tariffs. Then taxes, fees, tolls, and fines. Then borrowing and perpetually rolling over debt. Then counterfeiting ... i.e. inflation.
Then they go to war and steal or die, and start over ... with the same perps running them.
Do Greek government workers .... pay 23% income tax .... on their generous compensation from a grateful public ?
They already had a 23% VAT rate, but some industries, goods and services were discounted to 6.5% and 13%.
That title is clickbait.
All of Europe and Scandinavia have VAT rates from 19% to 25%. All of Scandinavia is 25%.
Many European countries have lower VAT rates for food and other goods. But some also have plans to increase that VAT. That will kill SME.
VAT increase will hit the poor. Raising VAT on food will mean that households will spend less money on food and will eat less healthy (mind you though, the Greek are pretty obese. They love sugar). This will lead to increased medical costs and sick leave. VAT on tourism might chase the tourists to lower costs destinations. I don't see how this tax hike will help them.
Here some examples of crazy VAT hikes:
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/07/20/value-added-tax-on-fire-craz...
They aren't raising the VAT on food, just food in restaurants.
The Greeks can very easily give the Troika a haircut by telling them to fuck off.
How long it will take for this realisation is anyone's guess but it's the only way to avoid destitution in perpetual slavery.
The ability to tell someone to fuck off is directly proportional to how much you have in your pocket and what your plan is.
The Greeks had neither.
No fuck-offs available.
Simple as that.
Unlike individuals, countries have many different sources of money even when they are bankrupt. But if the Greek leadership has sold out, there is nothing much the ordinary Greek citizen can do.
SO basically, dis is the da deal. Instead of paying 30% interest over three years, we'll only charge you 25% interest and extend the term to sixteen years. INterest of course, is paid first. Oh, an we'll spot you a loan to cover the existing interest and tack that onto the principal. And don't worry about the principal, we know you'll eventually be good for it, or else how's your little girls "cooking" skills?.
(Said the loan shark to victim, er greek)
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell
These bank lines are the reason why I save in coin and bars. Shiney white anf yellow metals.
Mr. Potter is happy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Potter#/media/File:Lionel_Barrymore_as...
Has PM Alexis Tsipras resigned yet? Greeks need to Mussolini him.
Has PM Alexis Tsipras resigned yet? Greeks need to Mussolini him.
Has PM Alexis Tsipras resigned yet? Greeks need to Mussolini him.
The next Ukraine in the line.
VAT tax on healthy food products is a GENOCIDE
Genocide.
When you positively, absolutely need the penultimate of hyperbole.
Don't tell me Russia isn't watching this
The State of Mississippi defaulted on bonds in 1838, with the currency being US dollars used by all the states, but the Greeks can't default in 2015 using the Euro? Why?
Because German (Merkel) said so....
There is no rule of law in the EU...so they can. Coming soon to Amerika.
Wow, how embarrissing to be a greek. I would have shown up to the bank wearing a clown suit, it would have fit the occasion and hid my red face.
Dont worry. You will get your chance.
The misery, the taxes, the austerity, the pension cuts, the limits on ATM withdrawals -- all this will last as long as it takes a majority to rise up and overthrow the government. Actually a revolution would be in order. Then when democracy is re-established, the Greeks can shrug and say, debt? what debt? I think they will be off the euro by then too.
So, after they overthrow the government, how will things be "better"?
Will they all automatically have jobs? Will their economy miraculously increase productivity by 300% and the country have a huge trade surplus? Will they end their reliance on imported goods?
Or, will they find themselves with even less than they do now?
No but it will put them on the path of recovery after a hard reset they "can" if they so choose to make themselves a better county.
how does an addict recover, he hits bottom and then can make choice to better themsleves or end it
If my calculations are right, then raising VAT to 23% from 13% is a 76% tax raise, meaning that some items will cost 8.8% more.
What Merkel said can be interpreted as follows: If you want a debt haircut, get out of the currency union.
The VAT already was 23% on most items/services, but SOME things were discounted to 13% and 6.5% VAT. So it's not as drastic as it sounds.
European VAT rates range from 19% to 25%.
That won't be me. I stopped playing banker games ages ago.
Greek woman says "our creditors have ruined us"
Too bad - you borrowed it, now pay the piper.
The creditors lent it and got a bailout by EU taxpayers. Why should the losses of private institutions be socialized? Do they share their profits with tax payers?
Capitalism? Me think not.
Shareholders are also tax payers - Some ZH readers do not know who owns the banks - for the most part it is by millions of small and large investors. Most 401k's have an interest in banks. Stop trying to pass the blame for your own debt and stupidity.
Keep on drinking the koolaid. Yes, some taxpayers also invest in pensionfunds or in banks. But many more not and these were put on the hook for bailout of these banks and pensionfunds. Why should they bailout banks and pension funds? (because they became 'TBTF').
The probles is that a systems was created that allowed pension funds and commercial banks to act like investment banks and hedge funds. Same thing with the Iceland banking crisis. Even municipalities and provinces in Europe took high risks there and lost millions. The system got out of control. It needs to change.
Mr Tsipiras has done a good job and been a good little puppet for Mrs Merkel, soon be working for Goldman Sachs on a nice little earner, he wont be long before hes gone, totally deceived the greek people, what a idiot
Mr Tsipiras has done a good job and been a good little puppet for Mrs Merkel, soon be working for Goldman Sachs on a nice little earner, he wont be long before hes gone, totally deceived the greek people, what a idiot
Shut up and pay your new taxes, bitches.
Fractional pyramiding of Time deposits = Banking
Fractional pyramiding of Demand deposits = Criminal Fraud (“TBTF” Model)
Continuous bailouts and subsidies for Criminal Fraud = Totalitarian rule by Criminals
As time goes on, I think its going to be hard for the “markets” to get excited about investing in a “future” characterized by continuous crisis, ongoing fraud, market manipulation, outrageous taxation and a persistent fear that the whole thing could blow up any minute.
Hmmmm, Looks like progressives sold their criminal tyranny to european peoples. My advice to the people of Europe would be to start shooting politicians and bankers or be slaves.
Grimaldus
TIME FOR A JOKE (or TWO or THREE )
1)The Greek government has banned the making of Tarama and Tzatziki hoping that it might avoid a double dip recession.
2) What are the first three letters of the Greek alphabet? IOU
3) Greek Pensioner goes home after having spent the day lining up at an ATM. The wife asks him how it all went.
He replies: Bloody terrible.
Wife asks: Why, what happened?
Husband: Well I lined up with 200 other people and I was almost at the front I noticed that one of my shoelaces was undone.
Wife: So?
Husband: Well I bent over to tie my shoe lace up.
Wife: And what happened?
Husband: This visually impaired man tried shoving his credit card up my ass.
4) Zeus flying over the Aegean spots a beautiful woman, swoops upon her and deflowers her. The women is screaming but Zeus says to her: "In nine months you will have a son and his name will be Hercules."
The women looks at him angrily and replies: "In nine days you will have a rash and you will name it Herpes."
Now hold on just a second... just how in the hell does anyone, even great Zues himself, "deflower" a woman with herpes?
The Greeks could have taken all their money out three weeks ago - but they had 'faith' in their government.
No tanks in the street...and no assassination.
Greek Investigator’s Report Finds Evidence of Plot Against Former PM’s Life, ‘Silver Drachma’ Plan.
See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/06/27/greek-investigators-report-fi...
Hotel Euro Phony
On a dark desert highway
Kool-aid helping me bear
With the smell of burning pensions
Rising up in the air
Up ahead in the distance
I saw our fiat-based plight
My head grew heavy and my wallet grew slim
I had to stop for the the night
There he sat in the wheelchair
An emissary from Angela Merkel
This could be Drachma-Drama or this could Euro-Hell
Then he lit up a blowtorch
And he showed me the way
How I can shove it up my ass
So that his friends can say
Welcome to the Hotel Euro Phony
Such a lovely fleece
Such a lovely fleece
Such a lovely Greece
Plenty of room at the Hotel Euro Phony
Any time of debt
Any time of debt
Hope you placed your bet
He's financially twisted
Puts Maastricht on the bend
He's got a lot of officials
That he uses to no end
They QE all they want to
Sweet peasant's sweat
Some QE to remember
Some QE to forget
So I called up Jeroen
Can I please cut your hair?
He said we can't have that spirit here since that would make us bare
Not much to remember but 17 hours passed away
They woke me up in the middle of the night
So I could hear them say
Welcome to the Hotel Euro Phony
Such a lovely fleece
Such a lovely fleece
Such a lovely Greece
They're living it up at the Hotel Euro Phony
What a nice fiat
What a nice fiat
Coach your diplomat
Gimmicks in the financials
And the bailouts were nice
And he said You are all prisoners here
Of our own device
And back at Brussels
They turn up the heat
Stab me with their plastic knives
Just to prove I'm deadbeat
Last thing I remember
I tried to outrun this doom
Donald told me Sorry, but
There is no way you're leaving this room
Relax said Wolfgang
No elections is best,
You can drawdown any time you like
Just hang yourself at our behest!
How long before the anecdotal data about a thermonuclear black market in Greece starts to come to the surface.
Like someone said before: 23% Vat hike on all "official" sales. I'd say almost everything in Greece is about to go under the counter. And I'd make a solid bet that all the tax inspectors are about to slow their working pace significantly as well, given that they are having their cost of living hammered as well. With another election on the horizon, tax receipts will also fall as people wait to see who gets to hold the bomb next time.
Human beings don't stand still, we adapt, we survive. We always have. This is a concept that the Troika seems totally unable to grasp. The Greeks have done suprisingly well so far, they may be in the shit but they are succeeding in their aim of turning their creditors into their partners, and eventually, captives. Why take the pain all by yourself when you can share it around with your "friends"?
VAT: value added tax....... Orwellian much?
This is all getting mighty interesting. Tsipras has just replaced all of his pro-Russian cabinet members.
Gunfire has a very pleasant smell and sound. Soon, the Greeks will come to appreciate it!