This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Gold "Flash-Crashes" Again Amid Continued Commodity Liquidation As China Manufacturing Slumps To 15-Month Lows
As Bridgewater talks back its now widely discussed bearish position on fallout from China's equity market collapse, Chinese stocks rose at the open (before fading after ugly manufacturing data). However, liquidations continue across the commodity complex in copper, gold, and silver. Though not on the scale to Sunday night's collapse, the China open brought another 'flash-crash' in precious metals. All signs point to CCFD unwinds, and forced liquidations as under the surface something smells rotten in China, which has just been confirmed by the lowest Manufacturing PMI print in 15 months.
Gold flash crashed...
As we noted previously, while the actual selling reason was irrelevant, the target was clear: to breach the $1080 gold price which also happens to be the multi-decade channel support level.
As liquidations across the metals complex continue..
Scotiabank's Guy Haselmann noted earlier...the plunging of the commodity complex is telling us that the China economy could be imploding.
Problems stemming from China are spreading further into more sectors and markets (various high yield sectors, emerging markets, EM and commodity currencies).
As I wrote in my note Tuesday (Too Much of Everything), Zero interest rates have contributed to over-production, pressuring consumer prices lower. Certainly, borrowing in the energy sector contributed to the over-supply of oil and look what has happened in that sector. Now, weakening demand from China is accelerating the decent in most commodities. Budgets of EM supplier-countries and commodity exporters are being materially impacted.
As commodities fall, the FOMC says that inflation targets are harder to obtain, leading to a self-perpetuating belief that continued cheap money is needed.
Yet, claims fell to the lowest level since 1973, housing is strong, and auto sales are back to almost 17mm units (etc). Clearly, the Fed has gotten itself into a difficult position. By not lifting-off and taking their medicine in 2014 – market imbalances today are now bigger and the consequences greater.
China is unfolding as the most important story of 2015 for markets. Stay alert. Long-dated US Treasuries remain attractive and good place to hid.
* * *
It seems Guy may be on to something as Manufacturing just collapsed in China...
All that stimulus, all those "measures" and Chinese manufacturing collapses at the fastest rate in 15 months; and it appears bad news is bad news still in China...
Charts: Bloomberg
- 62913 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -







When these herd-following clowns learn that GOLD is not a "commodity", everything will change overnight. I just hope I'm still young enough to enjoy that time, though...
Right. Gold is not a commodity. It is money! If time travel exists and you were going 1000 years into the past or 1000 years into the future, what would you want to bring to buy stuff? Stocks? Bonds? Dollars? Bitcoins?
I'm taking gold!@
$999 an oz here we come.
If we hit $999 an ounce, does Turd Ferguson have to eat his hat?
"Gold is not a commodity. It is money!"
Um, gold is only money if it is used as money.
Now, deception is the medium of exchange.
Tell central banks that gold is just a commodity.
We are in a debt deflation / crash of our centrlally planned debt money system.
Every effort is being made to portray gold and silver as just commodiities with paper trading.
Won't work.
China delivers as much gold bars in two weeks as the COMEX does in a year.
https://smaulgld.com/shanghai-gold-exchange-withdrawals-week-ended-july-10-2015/
The only number I care about is the price of physical gold vs. paper gold. I bet that's not flash-crashing.
Physical gold and silver are showing distress in availability with increasingly negative Basis (forward price - spot price)
https://monetary-metals.com/monetary-metals-supply-and-demand-report-19-july-2015/
The attempt to ''demonetize' gold in 1999 didn't work either.
Gresham lives.
..not like I would want to displace perfectly good fiat..
Oh, wait a minute there…..I do
Paging Mr. Gresham, you are wanted in aisle 1…..
if this were chinese liquidations to deal with leverage, would they stop hunt the 1080?
I think not. So can we dispense with that narrative once and for all.
WE can dispense with that narrative but will Bloomberg? Nope.
Re: "something smells rotten in China..." <- WTH? I thought the USA had the worst economic fundamentals in the world...?
once 1080 breached next stop 1045, and so on til? bear market in paper gold with gold phys dragged down only with increasing premiums, currently 5 percent from 4 percent. silver with wooping 20 percenr phys prem. phys will dry up soon at these prices...
But but the Goldcore article heading the ZH homepage says lower prices (??!!) have lead to record demand for coins and bars.
How can there be demand if there is no supply?
And how could the price be lower as goldcore claims if demand is outstripping supply? The laws of economics don't apply to gold?
What price are these people paying for the coins and bars that are not available?
Enquiring minds want to know.
"How can there be demand if there is no supply?"
Ever been in the desert without water?
Retail demand is a fraction of the gold market.
The shortage is showing up in London:
https://monetary-metals.com/monetary-metals-supply-and-demand-report-19-july-2015/
kitco has plenty, go there and buy some you fucking idiot! quite posting bullshit..
Yes, all this bullshit about "lack of supply" is just that: plain bullshit.
It's designed by gold SELLERS (who cash fiat premiums on every ounce they sell you!) in order to perpetuate the hype. Think the usual suspects, like; Peter Schiff, Mike Maloney Egon von Greyerz, Eric Sprott and commodity bulls like Jim Rogers.
It's becoming very predictable: every time there's a big drop in gold prices, the usual 'screaming heads' come out again on KWN, TFMetals (by whom I'm blocked from posting because they like to censor everybody with a different opinion) and also on this site.
"This time it's different" we hear and gold prices will rebound any day now, China & Russia will start a gold backed currency, blah blah blah blah, the same old stories which we've been fed all the way down from $1900...
When a stock buyer Buys The Fucking Dip then he's stupid, but when goldbugs catch a falling knife all the way down from $1900 then it's "the smart money?" Get real!
Problem is most of ZH readers are Flat Earthers , they actually do beleive there will be a return to a Gold Standard , it's fucking hilarous to read some of the comments.
The future is digital , the future is BITCOIN , BTChezzzz.
The price followers posting here about plenty of availability are following availability of paper gold with a paper price set in London where they trade 200 million oz of gold each day. It's not real.
Meanwhile increasing stress in the market shows iin the negative price basis for both gold and silver.
When the scramble for gold and silver hits the mom and pop buyers at Kitco, its over and Gresham signals that paper money is being rejected.
Kitco the last place you'd look.
I've also noticed more dealers that used to be reputable are having a hard time making deliveries (judging by the reviews on my site).
http://comparegoldandsilverprices.com/
I'm sure Turd would GLADLY eat his hat if silver hit $999. I'll help him. (Pass the gravy)
"Tell central banks that gold is just a commodity"
this is actually the very core of the matter
on one side central banks that wish you to believe that gold is just a commodity (and a pretty but pretty useless one), on the other side central banks that would wish you to believe that it's the monetary base, and a third group of central banks that are neutral on that matter, but nevertheless "hold"
as often, in markets, you can short them to three labels: "Buy", "Hold" and "Sell". three factions
by bundling them all to "the central banks", you make those three groups and their conflict disappear from sight. the end result is, wittingly or unwittingly, a lie. of the populist sort, meaning the kind that preys on the ignorance of the masses
my "general advice" two cents: hold. gold is for holding. not too much of it, just enough to make you sleep better
but don't you ever think that gold is not the central banks' metal and bone of contention, regardless from the faction
Who cares what the banks say, look what they do: hoard gold in giant piles in massive vaults. Seems like a lot of work for a barbaric relic. But hey, it's tradition.
So answer the question. Let me guess you are taking your digital dollars with you to 3015? If you don't hold it, you don't own it. Gold is money. It has the properties needed for money. Not true for alomst every currency out there.
We are obviously going to hit 999/oz cause that is between where we are and where we are heading. Of course in the trip to $200/oz Gold may gap open down from like from 1010 to 980 and not trade through 999 but in principle the goal will have been met by then. We should see next week I'm thinking, maybe as early as Sunday Globex open.
"If we hit $999 an ounce, does Turd Ferguson have to eat his hat?"
Turd Ferguson is absolutely brilliant. Gets his followers to BTFD from $40's all the way to the teens. He then makes his site a pay site......And people actually are paying to be part of his cult!!
I do give Turd lots of credit, it is impossible to be 100% wrong all the time, but Turd comes pretty close. I'd say his calls are about 85% wrong which can make you lots of money doing the opposite of him.
TF is a good guy. In the early days he gave me some 'free' advice and it actually paid off. I enjoyed his antics just as much as the next loud talker but in general I like his comments and ideas. When his site went 'paid' is when I tuned out. Too much 'free' content out there....even if I have to deal with the ads and the videos....
U.S. Mint has sold record
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/index.cfm?action=PreciousMetals&typ...
- 2015 American Eagle Sales by OZ:
January, 81,000
February, 18,500
March, 46,500
April, 29,500
May, 21,500
June, 76,000
July, 126,000
-
edit oops July continues to break record.
says the US GOVERNMENT mint, see China
The US is Exporting Gold at about 600 Tons a year over the last 6 years, while producing only about 231 Tons per year.
US Year: 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014
Gold Production:
Mine: 231 tons, 234 tons, 235 tons, 230 tons, 211 tons,
Exports, 383 tons, 644 tons, 695 tons, 691 tons, 430 tons,
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/gold/mcs-2015-gold.pdf
Memorandum From Secretary of the Treasury Dillon to President Johnson1
Washington, March 17, 1965.
SUBJECT
Gold Transactions
The Treasury gold stock will show a decline of $250 million this week. This decline will be announced tomorrow afternoon at the weekly press conference of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and will be reported in the press Friday morning.2
This decline will provide for sales of $232 million to France. $150 million is being sold this week, which will complete the French program of reducing their dollar balances of $300 million. In addition, there will be a sale next week of $82 million to cover the French balance of payments surplus in February. France has publicly stated that it intends to take enough gold each month to cover the preceding month's surplus. Future French gold purchases will therefore depend on developments in the French balance of payments. Surpluses are not expected to continue at anywhere near the February level.
We have backgrounded the financial press thoroughly so that the drop in the gold stock should be attributed to France. The stories should also indicate that this transaction completes the French program of reducing the dollar balances, as announced by them in January.
Including this week's transaction, the decline in the Treasury gold stock so far this year will amount to $825 million, nearly as large as the total loss in each of the years 1961 and 1962. During the coming quarter, the gold stock is expected to continue to decline but at a reduced rate. Even with full success in our balance of payments program we could easily lose up to $250 million during the second quarter. Thereafter losses, if any, should be much smaller. With success in our balance of payments program, it would not be surprising if the U.S. actually began to gain gold during the second half of the year. These projections are necessarily very tenuous and should not under any circumstances be used in public discussions.
Douglas Dillon3
Treasury gold stock, shit it will take me a week or a month to figure out what your post means.
- Bonds, still a mystery
- FX, LIBOR, Gold Price Setting still a mystery
- Treasury Gold Stock, what the hell is that
But I think all markets are rigged including FX or maybe especially FX.
Sorry I just don't know Finance at all in the end. I look at numbers and trends and enjoy that.
I need a tutorial on Finance and probably should have gotten it like 10 years ago.
all one needs to know is the insiders almost alway win and the rest pay, eventually thats how it plays out... just like vegas. oh, but we had a good tyme, fucken-eh...
says the US GOVERNMENT mint, see China
December 2009 is the last record I see... US MINT 231,500 OZ sold to the Global Market.
There is no local market today. Bankers will not be contained by any laws or powers... and people around the world will seek gold in US Markets.
- Top of my Head we import 230 Tons of Gold, Export 600 Tons of gold and produce through mining 231 Tons of Gold.
But I thought that when prices came down there wasn't supposed to be any phyzz available? Where is all this supply coming from?
Surely these coins and bars can't be selling for a small premium to the paper price!?! Tell me it isn't so!
The mint is selling at the 'coin dealer ripoff ebay dream asking price' and not the paper price used by massive financial institutions right?
Mintcoins. Energy efficient. Fast. 5%APR.
Just another shitty Alt-Coin
Have you heard about lighting networks second white paper ?
It's getting closer: scaling Bitcoin to hundred of millions of people if not billions.
BULLISH !
Be your own bank !
Blocksize still needs increasing , I can see 2GB blocks on the horizon ......
1000 year time travel....
yes... when making financial decisions for my family, THIS is the wisest measure to use
Ask John Titor, his Gravity Distortion Time Displacement Unit can brink back you +- 60 years from now with 2 % divergence (you wouldn't notice many difference between your world of origin and the one that you arrive...)
I backed up the truck on some 10 oz silver bars today, about $1 over spot... phyz market is holding a premium but the strength of the EPSON printers should not be under-estimated...
It's only a commodity if you take delivery... otherwise, as they say, "you ain't got jack"
The "Clowns" are all dead zombies walking. when tey come to you for help be sure they come humble . If not protect your\self.
Deuteronomy 7:25.
thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.
so what? the whole 7:25 goes like this, even in the King James Bible:
"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God"
so, in short, it's the typical monotheistic attack on the "idolatry" of pagans and polytheists, and the silver and gold part is just a warning that this attack has to be pure, not based on base motives like lucre or lust for gold and silver
Deuteronomy 7:25.
thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.
The Fed is in big trouble, Judging by the hot money chasing AMZN, NFLX, GOOG, FB and biotechs, it looks like NASDAQ is going to go parabolic a la April Y2K by the fall into next year, and the Fed has the rate near 0%, they have no way of supporting the markets after another exhaustion top, April Y2K all over again. 16 years later IMO.
Hedge accordingly.
Hopefully it hits $1000 tomorrow. I'll join the line at the LCS.
But it might be $1000/toz with a $100 premium.
Or maybe $100/toz with a $1,000 premium!!!
If. Just if the world is as soft as it seems, and leave the US out of it for the moment, then about the only prescription left will be for CB's to literally all engage in another massive coordinated (as in severe correlated decline) QE.
Probably meaning that as things get worser and worser, at some point the two great shelters of any port in the storm will do thank you very much, are (with a strong dollar) Treasuries and gold. The only bad thing about gold (and I ain't selling mine, so don't assume that's what I mean by bad) is that if the rest of the world is the problem this time around, then the strong dollar will hold gold down in dollar terms.
Whacha gonna do? Lotsa long treasuries and gold. As well as a buncha good old fashioned cash reserves.
Yikes.... lotsa room for troubles.
EDIT: Second thought: So this slam the PM market with Big Assed Volume Sales is going on now for several days in a row. The rest of the world, MSM press are even picking up on it, and it persists. Strange, because it's not commercial selling, ruining the price in the face of sales. It's meant to show force. Serious effort to slam the market lower.
If somebody really wants the price down this bad, the answer, after 5 years of declining prices, is why?
It was already beaten down.
Perhaps, just perhaps, something is a brewing out there that this is a prologue to. A real problem popping to the surface and this is the peremptory prophylactic strike.
Why else?
Just musing.
Not the least bit concerned by it, they have the sheeple convinced that gold priced in fiat is crashing. We know what gold really is, its not "faith & credit" like fiat. It is substance. We know gold holds no encumbrances like corporate or treasury bonds defaulting in the middle of the night or entire national currencies going bye bye.
It stands alone, so if the object is to depress the fiat price exchanged for ones labor, whats the problem?
I'm just not seeing it.
"Gibson's Paradox"
This is the Larry summers blueprint
#!. keep gold under pressure
#2 Keep interest rates close to zero
#3 Print money like it's 1999
#4 So you can be like God
More like Jabba the Hutt's wet dream.
Larry Summers is a big, fat, stinking pile of shit of a human.
all good questions that need answers
Yep
aside from PMs, basic raw material plunging will punch the Kangaroo in the nose:
Bad news galore for Australian economyhttps://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/bad-news-galore-for-australian-economy...
They are getting ready to launch QE4 and need to slam precious metals down first so that they will have further to travel before they can get to new highs.
Brack Schwan .....bitchezzzz
I'm surprised i hardly hear anyone here at ZeroHedge mention to smackdown in Platinum. It's been more brutal and severe than even Gold. Scares the crap out of me just looking at it. I got a bad feeling something REALLY ugly is coming soon. Wish I knew what and when.
I've been saying of late, the collapse is near. Early stages are already happening. This is part of that. Expect this to continue.
Note that we're talking about a massive global economic collapse. Since plantinum and palladium are industrial metals, they are sure to collapse more than gold. The reason gold won't collapse as much is because everyone knows what the world central banks will do once the mainstream media can no longer hide the collapse. Namely...
ENORMOUS MONEY/DEBT CREATION.
Like nothing anyone has seen before.
And that will tend to shoot gold back up.
But not for a while. First it falls.
PS: For holders of physical gold who just can't stomach further albeit temporary price falls, maybe you should spend just a little money on some highly leveraged gold shorts to offset. Just enough so it [largely] cancels reductions in your physical position.
PS: However, the most important point is this. Most likely ALL assets that are not in your own hands will VANISH very soon as the banks and financial corporations steal (bail-in) everyones accounts. I'm not kidding. So if you convert all your paper assets into physical gold right now, and hide it securely, you will likely lose a little "dollar value" in the short term, but you'll be one of the very few who has ANY liquid wealth shortly thereafter.
Options not being my expertise and finance and trading not being my expertise... I guess i have a dumb question for ZH:
Q: How to short gold with a plain Jane discount broker?
My broker doesn't have FX services or Money Markets and the Options... I've never tried or seen anything other than stocks. I'd guess you can short ETFs and there are ETFs that are 2X or 3X times price increases or decreases.
I guess there must be 2X Contrarian PM or Gold Plays.
I'll leave your question for someone else who trades the market to answer with specifics. But to short with a 3x leveraged ETF means you'd have to invest 1/3 as much in the ETF as your physical gold is worth.
If you're willing to leave that much money in the system, and you're willing to do that, then that could work. Just remember, your ENTIRE position is likely to vanish when the predators steal everything... IF you hold it very long.
Likely you won't have to though... so that could work.
Much more effective is probably a fairly short-term futures contract (3~6 months), which I'm guessing is probably leveraged about 30:1 to 50:1. This means you only need to put up 1/30 to 1/50 of the dollar value of your physical gold to fully offset any fall in the price of gold.
But you can't trade such animals in normal stock trading accounts. You can achieve roughly the same results with a put option or GLD or something (or even gold), and sometimes you only need to sign a form to add that capability to your stock trading account.
Note that offsetting your physical gold position this way also means any rise in the gold price will be canceled too. So the idea would be to sell the position once you're convinced the gold price fall is complete (probably shortly after the predators-that-be announce (or hint) they're about to flood the universe with fiat).
PS: I think DGLD is a 3x ETF on gold that rises roughly 3x the drop in gold. But don't take my word for that.
DUST, 3x bear ETF on the miners. If you want to short gold and want a huge surge when gold drops, thats your horse. Its more than doubled in the past month. Careful though. These shenanigans are going to come unglued eventually. And I wouldn't be holding it if/when the fed doesnt raise rates. Personally, Id just keep buying physical gold and sit this out from the sidelines
A problem with 2x or 3x leveraged entities like DUST or DGLD is the increased 'volatility decay' one sees. In other words, if you keep holding these instead of making it a short term trade, you start losing the advantage of the leverage. At some point, it will become a negative. For that reason, I try to avoid leverage with shorting. Right now I bought bigtime into SJB, an inverse ETF for high yield bonds. I can hold it for a few months and not worry about the volatility decay like these other shorts.
call options on SJB are dirt cheap for jan 16, its mark at 37.5 cents for 29 strike, look at the 10 year chart , and tell me the opputunity once people attempt to exit all together from the high yield bonds considering lack of liquidity
Fair advice, I have the options access but just don't see many real opportunities. Gold Depreciation might afford a real opportunity.
Have to admit some mental problems right now.
I have gotten out of the Market in the main.
So any Options Activity would be stepping back in(full of risk).
Thanks for the explanation. At this point I think my main opportunity is some kind of commitment to ethos or learning service to the community. I have real issues to deal with regarding memory, health, lifestyle,... this lead me to face a life of Cheap living, self-learning, nutrition, and maybe wall building.
honestann, you never cease to amaze me
on one side, the hermit, far from most people, civilization centers, convinced that cities have to burn by rain of fire and brimstone for their wickedness of being popolous
on the other side, the (virtual, I presume) visitor of the crowded market places of financial instruments, giving advice on the amount of leverage that bets on gold ought to bear
imho there are huge contradictions in you, but that you even contemplate those paper bets based on virtual promises is probably the biggest one
honestann, leverage is a form of debt
hold. a bit. physical.
all the rest is just... casino bets based on debt, at which point I would say you are better off with... stocks, for criminy
The premiums over the spot price is high on platinum so I don't think many people buy it. It has been taking a beating much worse than gold & silver. My guess is to hurt Russia who is the primary supplier.
Fed raises rates to 20%. . dollar has the fucking all seeing eye... It is the currency of the new world order. . .when rates rise, that is all they need to do. Sad but true. . .makes me sick. The eye is the ultimate symbol of evil. Eye of sauron basically.
blah blah blah, i bet chinks close in the green tonight
You sell, you go to prison. I buy, you buy, okay? Equities rally. We've got that ponzi covered.
Doesn't change the fact that the global 'leveraged debt is good' meme is collapsing in front of their eyes. Unless the USSA and USSR via NASA decide to hire Bruce Willis to lasso that trillion dollar space rock floating around to save us, the World Wide Debt Project is #failing in dramatic fashion.
Okay y'all I've said it many times ... the PRICE per ounce does not matter at all if you hold physical i.e. you have the actual thing in your hot little hands. So, suppose you bought at the top at $1900 (I have a couple of coins I bought there, it's what happens when you cost-average in).
Just sell them here and declare a loss, it will help your overall tax return.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not selling my losers here ... there will be a better time and quite frankly I love having them ... the shiny thing and all :))
The bottom line here is this: Quit whining over the silly reported price per ounce (it is NOT a fair market value) and hold strong and if you cannot, then use the tax code to your advantage.
They are not losers until you are forced to sell them ... hold STRONG !!
Again the system is set up to the advantage of business owners or Wage Slaves in the Federal Government, State Government, or Corporations.
If I don't make tax revenue... then I can't write off Capital Losses, or Short Term Capital Losses.
Maybe I write off my private business expenses and have only $20,000 in Income... where is the write off?
-
The war is on Small Businesses, Self Employment, Fixed Income people, Handicap, Elderly, Retired,... and the people that want to start new businesses.
No, Teeth you as an individual can write off the loss ...
Presuming you are a US citizen and you file a 1040 long ....
How can you say this is due to china meltdown when the seller is obviously trying to push the price of gold down past the stops... BS
Even if it was forced liquidation of assets they wouldn't sell it like this...
Sorry ZHers gold is going a lot lower, you have been dead wrong.
That depends on your time horizon, doesn't it? My metal will be of value long after paper ETFs are a bonfire.
Ah, youth is wasted on the wrong people. ~ Man on Porch <It's a Wonderful life>
I can't speak for alll ZHer's but most were aware of the fiat game years ago and took action at the time (Silver $8\Gold $275) Price average doesn't resonate with traders but it does to people who 'invest' as opposed to those who speculate.
Good luck trading.
i highly doubt we will see those levels again, but even at these levels, those who haven't been buying as long as you can really drop their avg cost per ounce a lot at these levels
I've said the paper price is headed for zero for the last 5 years now.
It has to pass through zero to get to infinite. The great majority of people don't understand this. Those that do, rule the world.
And you are absolutely correct Sir!
"I've said the paper price is headed for zero for the last 5 years now."
The paper price is exactly the physical price and there is zero shortages right now. I am talking about comex deliverable bars.
Some silver coins, bobbles, and doohickeys might be in short supply and high priced, but that is not what the "paper price" represents.
Anyone who pays a premium for silver coins is a fool IMO. Do the coin dealers give you a premium when you sell the coins back to them?
If there is any real shortages then the "paper price" will go up until the demand is met.
The physical price is being dictated by the paper price. This will not always be the case.
And yes, coin dealers do give you a premium when you sell back to them. There is a spread--that is where they make thier money.
Sorry to burst your faith bubble, but there is no set of circumstances possible, outside of a mob raiding central banks around the world and killing central bankers, where the paper price rises again. The central bankers themselves have said as much. "We let the price of metals get away from us". They are determined not to make the same mistake. What they don't realize is that it wasn't a mistake, it was simply reality. If they were to raise interest rates now as they did then, even if it destroyed government debt around the world, it would save their fiat. But they won't. Their ticker will read zero, from now until the end of eternity. It's just people won't pay any more attention to it, any more than we now look to the edicts of Diocletian to determine what the prices of goods should be.
This is nothing but a more sophisticated, obfuscated version of price controls. It will end the way price controls always end.
"Do the coin dealers give you a premium when you sell the coins back to them?"
Yes.
"Anyone who pays a premium for silver coins is a fool IMO. Do the coin dealers give you a premium when you sell the coins back to them?"
Good God, do you not do the slightest bit of research before posting total crap?
Truth hurts. The premium you pay on a coin is a total loss. Unless of course you find someone who will buy the coin off you for a similar premium which is unlikely.
Post some links to show some coin dealers paying a decent premium when buying back coins.
There are too many fake coins going around these days as well.
It is very risky buying pm coins unless you are very experienced.
All over the place drivel. You start form premiums, them go on about fake coins, then it is risky to buy coins.
Are you one of thoose mouth breathers that have got sodomized buying some "special edition" crap from a shady Mexican guy? You sure sound butthurt.
I'm splitting my money investments between gold and high velocity propelled lead projectiles. I think that both will have their place before the reset is over.
Huge dumping of paper gold...serious liquidity panic.... China may be way fucked.....way fucked.
Dollar strength is going to push gold a lot lower as the Fed raises rates. Being right doesn't mean anything if your timing is off, sit on dollars until the crunch then buy low. This isn't the bottom for gold/silver/copper, golds day will come but that day is not here yet.
25 basis points doesn't count as "raising rates". The fed wants no part of a strong dollar.
Dollar strength is an illusion and timing is for insiders and the elite, not for you or the average-Joe investor.
Market technicians are amusing, aren't they?
If "the gold price" has fallen to US$1200, they'll call for $1100, or $1060...or $1054.40 or whatever....
If "the gold price" reaches their level, they'll call for $999 or $900 or $800 or whatever...
When it reaches $100/oz., they'll probably call for zero
Just one question: HOW can these trend-following clowns predict anything? How could they spot an extraneous-event driven turnaround in the "market" if they are forever doing nothing but extrapolating short-term moves???
Yep
We are starting to see that with silver premiums. Paper is cheap but physical requires a higher price.
Most people don't understand that as the paper markets lose credibility, the price those "markets" set will approach zero. All buying pressure originates from retail. When that leaves, price collapses.
They are right, for the wrong reasons, and as a result, they don't stack. They will understand in an instant what they should have done when the market finally resets itself. But by then it will be far too late.
It does not seem to me like any of these clowns are predicting anything at all. It seems to me like they are trying to mislead the public.
"When it reaches $100/oz., they'll probably call for zero"
no, the call for 35 USD per ounce - the set price it had for a very long time, btw - would come first. just saying
the trend followers like to follow the trends, and both calls and "technicals" are the way they interact, that's all. yes, they are amusing
I hope the fools crash this precious metal to the double digits. I will literally purchase a ton if that happens.
And then what will you do with it?
Sit on it until it will buy other hard assets at ridiculous prices like my father did in 1980 after he bought at the $50 low.
Where gold goes so does the AUD
Of course the fundamentals of wealth utility, supply, demand, on going 'production' availability of gold should undoubtedly have gold at record highs.
No two ways about it, gold should be around $2,000 without too much drama about it.
But the days of letting gold have its head, when it reached $1,900/oz and on an upward march caused a rethinking somewhere. And its been a crush gold program since, though mere paper manipulation only.
Paper playing of gold has taken it down $850/oz, to below production cost, ensuring future supply deficits, making it more scarce, but demand unchanged.
It doesn't take Einsteine to get that TPTB have a desperate need to keep Gold down (else they would be suing), just like a record growth in stock prices isn't related to any reality of economies.
Stock market must be high, gold must be low.
What is going to be the catylst that breaks the game?
When all hell breaks lose.
If the system breaks I don't think paper price will go to zero, it will be a demanding of delivery, and a scramble to actually buy real gold on the market to cover, a dramatic spike in gold prices, followed by numerous bankrupticies and bailouts...
wow... who knew?
so.. it was China all along that was holding up the price of gold.
...watch out below.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
China "holding UP" the "price of gold"???
More like holding it DOWN. And this is the PAPER PRICE. EVERYONE wants to sucker holders and producers of real metal into relinquishing it for peanuts.
Hint: how much real metal do you think was disgorged today?
I don't believe China was holding up the price of gold.
I would submit that gold is SCREAMING global deflation.
... watch out below ;)
oh don't worry if gold goes down, just buy more like Russia, China, India, and other central banks... cause when the money system gets reworked gold will be in there as nobody trusts this fiat shit anymore. Nations are not gonna let US have their lofty fiat BS position any longer, they will want real money...
The next gold standard will last 100 years when it comes.
All the central banks are part of the same cult. They all work together. The Vatican controls them all. . . Draghi is Roman Catholic, Lagard is Roman Catholic. Look up the religions of all the prime ministers of Europe. All the ministers of foreign affairs. All Roman Catholic. In some cases such as Yellen, they have put puppet Jews in as pawns so they can blame them, but they are all serving the Pope. Even Cina is controlled by Key Jesuits an knights of Malta and Catholic Orders. The Vatican owns a 90% monopoly on all the gold in the world hidden in secret coffers. If gold is what you exhault, you are passing your power to evil men. I digress.
When it comes to the paper gold price I would not rule out any price, high or low.
But of course, I think the lower they make it the greater the demand they cause.
And as for China etc, well I think the demand for gold will increase as fear quotient rises.
Really, who gives a rats ass about the paper price..... they are not selling gold.. they are selling worthless paper they can't deliver on.. it's worth nothing, and the buyer is a fool.
He talks about gold being liquidated but how does he know? Are long positions being closed or naked short positions being opened?
"Are long positions being closed or naked short positions being opened?"
Exactly, I am not sure if this is some sort of liquidation, capitulation or short attack. If it is shorts then there should be a powerful rally out of the bottom.
Otherwise sensible people who would laugh at someone offering to sell them a mutual fund with a 5-15% front load and a 5-15% back load will happily pay over spot and sell under spot for the privelege of storing and housing their own metals.
Just like in the gold rush, the one's who made the real money weren't the prospectors - they were the guys selling equipment to the prospectors, and today's prospectors are the stackers. I'm sure the gold suppliers making the vig are happy to buy and sell to them.
Very fucking strange shit going on. I fear the world economy, banks , bonds stocks are about to fucking blow up. Mother fuckers need to swing.
Recall the DHS insider story....
http://www.truthandaction.org/dhs-insider-everyone-seems-to-be-waiting-f...
I told you last year, at a time when gold and silver were setting record highs, one specific indicator that time is very short. It is the final ‘smack down’ of the metals, gold and silver, that will presage the orchestrated economic collapse that is being planned by the bankers of Wall Street.
It is coming brother. Peace, Aloha and best wishes to my old pal Shill.
detracted
How long can this nonsense go on?
Longer than many rational speculators can stay solvent, it seems. We have still got an even wilder ride ahead of us.
This is not distribution or selling into strength. This is deliberate shaking of the tree to get weak hands to loose,their grip. Who benefits? How? And Why?
Pricewise this will lead people to believe gold is losing value, especially during Asian trading hours. Yet they are increasing tonnage. Oh but the paper price is not manipulated.
Ha.
Lehman 2.0, I'm positive.
This is so f'd up I am going to buy more physical silver and gold. I am going to ride this bucking bronco of price to its next peak! YAAAAHHOOOO I own Silver!
Better get a side order of lead to go with it.
All the gold bugs here claim phyzz is not available when prices are low, yet all claim to have bought gold at $275.
Sum ting wong with this 'story'
PermaBug - Slight difference between buying gold 8 years ago with now! 8 years ago the AISC was around $300 I think or maybe less?
The point is, the constant refrain from gold perma bulls (not to be confused with perma bulls in other assets, whom are disdained by the gold variety) is that when prices are low, 'phyzz' will not be available for purchase, and they even claim it was not available for purchase in the 2008/2009 crash.
Yet they all bought theirs at historic lows.
And in the same article that claims sales are at records, they claim none is available at any price. So how are sales possible?
Inconsistency is the sign of a weak mind.
The gold pumpers' lies eventually catch up to the, as lies always do.
Having said that, I might buy me some paper gold when it hits $850, for a quick trade.
And I'll take some profit on my oil short today, and might go the other way next week, depending on jusy how low we go.
Most producers now produce at a loss and or survive - for the short term - by high grading. Ore grades have been systematically degrading year for year, used to be over 10 g per mt and are now down to about 1.5 g per mt. On top of this oil even with the recent pull back is more expensive than when gold was 300 last time, and Chindia suck up global mine supply all on their own...
Many Aussie Gold miners are either debt free or have very low levels of debt, have cash in the bank and have AISC of $1100 AUD, current Gold price $1480 AUD, life is not so bad for aussie Gold miners thanks to a weaker aussie dollar.
The annual amount of gold mined only adds 2% to existing stocks of gold. Gold isn't like other commodities, say iron ore, where almost 100% of annual supply is consumed by industry and the stockpiles must be replenished. Only 12% of annual gold production is used commercially, the rest is either stored in vaults or turned into jewelry. Neither one of which are necessary, only desired.
The cost of mining gold is almost irrelevant when setting the price. There are still some lower cost producers.
A good example is iron ore prices this year. At $50/tonne, a LOT of mines arern't making money. But the price is still down, and yet iron ore is actually used, not just stockpiled.
The scarcity in gold supply would not only come from mines winding down, but from physical gold in strong hands.
There is supply, at the right price, and if people suddenly needed to cover their transactions with real gold it will pretty hard to shake volume from strong hands at anywhere near the current price.
Of all the gold that has been mined and still around how much of it is actually available for the market, how much tied up in banks, how much in strong hands (especially in current economic climate) in major investors/institutions, Indians, Chinese, SE Asia, etc.
A reduction in paper gold below mining costs reduces supply of 'available' physical gold. Demand increases with the falling COMEX paper price , whilst strong physical hands get stronger.
It would amazing if ened up with a Paper gold price of $250/oz at which price there would be zero physical gold available I would think.
The problem for paper/physical gold now is that those interested in acquiring and already holding physical gold are well aware of the strong global geopolitical and economic dangers about, thus they are not soft hands.
The conundrum then for those wanting a low gold price is that taking it too low sees physical gold get vaccummed from the market at an increased rate, winding the spring even tighter.
And another problem is that taking the paper gold, too low sees the tide turn to longs to cash in on a far too low a price.
So the lower they go the more delicate and dangerous things come for those wanting to control the gold price. Too llow creates a very tight coil that when it breaks free may see gold shoot through $2,000 in a day.
How is it so hard for people to link the collapse in commodities to the same collapse in global trade?
ZH lauds the collapse in the global economy and the lack of liquidity yet seems surprised that commodities can be more volatile than usual? It's gettting dull.
It's either an replay of 2008s sell off or we heading into a deflationary crash.
Holding and buying hard assets is still the best strategy as far as I'm concerned.
Now is the time for liquididy though, you need buying power down below.
The tricky part is timing, it could turn on a dime.
I posted a gold chart couple years back here, targetting $1080 first test after breaching $1560, next level on the radar $760 .
Market is still short.
Gold is not a commodity.......IT"S MONEY!!!!!! COLD HARD GLOBAL CASH!!!!!!
Not anymore. People forget that money is just a medium of exchange.
If gold was "money", it wouldn't be depreciating the way it is. Or rather, it's not much different than fiat. It's strengh lies in the belief that it's worth something.
I sold my ocean front property up in Maine for gold and silver. The buyer paid me 55 gold coins and 33 silver coins for the purchase. It was exchanged at the closing. Sounds like money to me!
DIE PAPER DIE
The world is obviously in bad shape in terms of monetary insanity, fiscal profligacy, economic decline, social rot, military conflict & tension, spreading proletariat socialism cancer, corruption in government and financial markets, etc, etc
AND
Gold, the Magic Saviour metal
is SELLING OFF SHARPLY.
All of you who have been accumulating gold because you believed in the flood of hype from the apocalypse carnival barkers made a bad investment – especially on the way up to record highs.
If you are going to buy shiny lead, better to but it at $800USD per ounce, seems to be heading there quickly - in spite of immanent apocalypse, according to the shiny lead carnival barkers.
I'm into PMs because they are one of many tanglible hard asset classes.
I couldn't careless about price at this time accept only to say ' lower ' helps me far more than ' higher '.
Yellow nuggets are not an investment. No yield, huge transaction costs to trade, minimal leverage and very minimal utility.
$800 per oz is a gift.
I'm LMFAO because in the 7 years since the financial market meltdown the only investment, literally only investment, that the pointy hat racist shit heads on this pathetic site have promoted and promoted and shilled and pushed and pushed and pushed and pumped and pumped and pumped and pumped AND PUMPED is
Gold?
Pathetic! A 10 yr treasury bond would have made you rich!
The moral of the story? Zero Hedge knows ZERO POINT ZERO about making money. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero.
Don't you forget it.
Why would consider gold to be an investment when, in actuality, it is money?
$6 is a flash crash?
this multi decade trend line is the most amateurish analysis i have ever seen
aghhhhhhhh, the sky is falling