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Why Do So Many Working Age Americans Choose Not To Enter The Workforce?
Via ConvergEx's Nick Colas,
Today we look at a unique dataset – Gallup’s annual poll of job satisfaction – to see what it can tell us about secular trends in employment, consumer confidence and spending. This annual survey of +1,000 people active in the U.S. workforce goes back to the late 1980s, so it is a useful lens with which to consider issues like labor force participation rates that have shifted unexpectedly over the period.
Most surprising news first: Americans express a broad satisfaction with their jobs, regardless of economic conditions. The very worst reading since 1989 was in 2011 when “Only” 83% of respondents said they were either “Somewhat” or “completely” satisfied with their jobs. The peak was in 2007 at 94%, and last year (August 2014) it was 89%.
The key takeaway is that declining labor force participation rates since the year 2000 (67% then, 62.6% now) aren’t because of any systemic disaffection with the American workplace.
The other notable takeaway: workers are (strangely, we must say) satisfied with what they earn. Those expressing “Complete” satisfaction with their paystub hit a high last year (31%) not seen since 2010 and 2006… Wage inflation? What for?
You could call it the “Mystery of the Missing Worker” – why do so many people of working age chose not to enter the workforce? Here are the numbers, as of the most recent Employment Situation report:
- 250 million: the total number of people of working age in the United States.
- 149 million: the total number of people in that population that have a job.
- 8 million: the number of people who want a job but do not have one.
- 93 million: the number of people who don’t work, and don’t want work.
To put some context around that last number, it is 30% of the entire U.S. population. This is the same as the current population of the entire West Coast (CA, OR, and WA) AND New York State AND Florida. Plus another 10 million people. Economists measure this with the Labor Force Participation rate, and it has been in decline since February 2000, when it peaked at 67.3%. It is now 62.6% and last month was a new low back to the 1970s. People of working age increasingly do not consider themselves part of the labor force. Most economists chalk this up to the demographics of an aging workforce even though virtually all the literature on the topic in the early 2000 predicted participation would continue to increase.
We recently took a long look at a dataset that doesn’t often see the light of day but does provide some useful takes on how workers view their jobs. It comes from the Gallup organization and is an annual survey of +1,000 employees since 1989 on their perceptions of job satisfaction in all its forms, from health and safety concerns to compensation to job security. The complete data set can be found here, and the charts below highight the trends...
But here are the important takeaways.
#1: Americans are consistently satisfied with their jobs, although the readings vary slightly through a given economic cycle. The highest ever combined responses of “Completely Satisfied” and “Satisfied” was in 2007 at 94%. The worst since the start of the survey in the late 1980s was 2011, at 82%. Last year – the results come out every August – the combined reading was 58% “Completely” and 31% “Somewhat” Satisfied, for a total of 89%.
#2: They also feel relatively secure in their positions. Last year some 88% reported being “Completely” (58%) or “Somewhat” (31%) satisfied by the security offered by their jobs and, implicitly, their employers. The worst readings were in 2009 at 80% total and in the early 1990s at 79%.
#3: Workers also report high levels of satisfaction with what they receive in terms of compensation. Back in 1991 – the worst year in terms of general reported satisfaction for this question – “only” 66% of respondents were completely or somewhat satisfied with their pay stubs. Even during the Financial Crisis and its aftermath that number troughed at 70% in 2011. Last year a total of 75% of respondents were satisfied with what they received for compensation.
#4: Workers who respond to the Gallup survey last year have the biggest gripes about health insurance benefits (only 61% satisfied), retirement planning (only 63% satisfied) and chances for promotion (68%).
#5: Conversely, workers reported exceptionally high levels of satisfaction in their relations with co-workers (95% completely or somewhat satisfied), physical safety (93%) and the flexibility of their hours (90%).
Frankly, when we started to look at these numbers we expected to see a mirror of the volatility common in consumer confidence surveys. A few points here:
- Consumer confidence as measured by the Conference Board peaked in 1966/67 and again in the late 1990s at readings of +140.
- Troughs occurred in the early 1970s, late 1970s/early 1980s and post September 11 at readings of 50 or so.
- The Financial Crisis took us down to below 30 in 2008 and readings struggled to get past 70 until 2013.
We therefore thought that Americans would feel broadly the same about their work situations as they did the economy as a whole - that things are still pretty bad and the past was much better than the present. This turned out not to be the case. Yes, they express some marginal disaffection when times are hard, but the trough reading during and after the Financial Crisis was 83% satisfied with their jobs. Hardly a pitchforks and barricades kind of number.
In short, we can’t blame lower participation rates on the nature of work – broadly speaking – offered in the American economy. In Internet parlance, the American workplace gets 4 ½ stars and a lot of recommendations. Perhaps, in the words of Yogi Berra: “No one goes to that restaurant any more. It’s too crowded”.
* * *
Of course, when work is punished in the Entitlement State Americans live in... what else should we expect but 30% of the employable to sit at home? As we previously explained,
This isthe painful reality in America: for increasingly more it is now more lucrative - in the form of actual disposable income - to sit, do nothing, and collect various welfare entitlements, than to work.
This is graphically, and very painfully confirmed, in the below chart from Gary Alexander, Secretary of Public Welfare, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (a state best known for its broke capital Harrisburg). As quantitied, and explained by Alexander, "the single mom is better off earnings gross income of $29,000 with $57,327 in net income & benefits than to earn gross income of $69,000 with net income and benefits of $57,045."
We realize that this is a painful topic in a country in which the issue of welfare benefits, and cutting (or not) the spending side of the fiscal cliff, have become the two most sensitive social topics. Alas, none of that changes the matrix of incentives for most Americans who find themselves in a comparable situation: either being on the left side of minimum US wage, and relying on benefits, or move to the right side at far greater personal investment of work, and energy, and... have the same disposable income at the end of the day.
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capitol gains tax 10% income tax 25% plus. It is better to just buy and sell twitter stocks than work.
I can only speak for myself on this matter: Gone Galt.
Slowly giving up stuff, slowly, slowly.
Downsizing has its upside! Less is more. N. N. Taleb discusses this in his masterpiece Antifragile.
Because they have bought a house and are living off of the appreciation.
Now if they had bought gold instead, they'd be homeless and living off of hand outs.
With the advent of Bitcoin trading and computer information technology people do not need to "work" anymore.
Jesus fuck, Fonestar! Get a fucking life!
Fat, lazy housewives who never intended to work..., ever.
This poll is full of shit.
Most people I hear talk about their jobs FUCKING HATE THEM!
And every Boomer I know is bolting for retirement as fast as they can now.
The only guys I know who like their job are older plumbing & heating guys who own their business and charge a fortune
Oh yeah.. A 79 year old man who does custom sheet metal work makes a fortune making "sugaring pans"
And a 42 year old gun smith who makes custom flint lock rifles & pistols for big money.
i help maintain a 152 unit townhouse rental complex and i see what this article says, one fuck of a lot of lawn chair sitters. and this is a lower income(no sect 8) type place in the burbs. getting their money somewhere and certainly NOT from past planning and saving. so that leaves only one sugar daddy left, hmmm, pays to be a slacker these days. i certainly am NOT envious cause their lives are fucking boring and limited to porch money status, but they aint working some shitty job...
Quite frankly, with the broad sweeping reforms to the definition of Disability, many American qualify without even getting out of bed.
Why bother? Only Amish have the pure work ethic.
Amish are very cool people, all over around Milaca, MN and friends indeed...
Split two cords last weekend and that was of interest. they know hard work, cause they, like the original mericans, worked sun up to sun set and feel/felt good to be tired and accomplish something made by hand, grown from dirt ect...
ZeroHedge simply doesn't get it...Here is a guy who gets what's going on in America
MIDDLE CLASS INCOMES AREN'T REALLY STAGNATING by MARTIN FELDSTEIN
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/are-middle-class-incomes-really-stagnating-2015-07-30
btw - Mr. Feldstein is a professor of economics at Harvard University and president emeritus of the National Bureau of Economic Research...so he must be right
Or perhaps they no longer work because of the safety and security of America's Social Security system???
http://econimica.blogspot.com/2015/07/all-things-social-security.html
Potential indicators that might shed some light onto the poll:
1. How many of those polled are civil servants ... cops, firemen, teachers, park rangers, inspectors, bureaucrats, etc?
2. How many have the most difficult job of all, stay at home full time mom or dad?
FYI: Most of the full time moms I have met are terriffic, focused and very busy raising their families and have very close relationships with their kids. The idea that there is something demeaning about a woman staying home and taking care of the family is something I find stupid, idiotic and repulsive. It is a form of freedom of choice that was common 50 years ago but rare these days since debt slavery has become so fashionable.
What? get a job and lose my Obozophone?
Fuck that!
Yeah it's so much better to work in a fish cannery, or grow vegetables or making dumb cars in Detroit. Yeah that will make you real proud! What a bunch of retards you people are. There's a reason smart people have become virtualized.
SSID to shit the bed shortly.
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/chartbooks/disability_trends/sect06.html
The article misses the obvious...
The E-Con-omy is going underground. There is a very large and popular restaurant near where I work that gives a 10 percent discount for cash. A pizza place with a cash special as well. Kids daycare, discount for Cash..... etc, etc...
Also seeing this relative to uncovered (I have shitty insurance), medical visits, pay in cash, well there is a discount....
These places probably have alot of folks happy to work for a few bucks an hour cash, no taxes etc.
It comes in off the books, it goes out off the books.
The article also misses the disabled, and the disgusted.
The underground economies socialist countries is very large. Now American underground is growing as well.
Everything you make under the table is not visible and you can collect welfare and food stamps. The only thing is you can not own house, luxury car and such but human ingenuity is at work here.
Two busineesmen hire its other's wife and they actually do not work. Every 6 months they get layed off and collect unemployment for a year or two. Then they get rehired and rince and repeat.
They both drive MB's. No need for Obama phones
That's great until you get audited. For restaurants, it's much more difficult for the tax authorities to nail you hiding cash on a small number of transactions. However, for professional services, especially daycares and medical facilities, it is much more difficult to hide income. There are a million ways to catch you... whether it's measuring the electricity used by a coin operated laundry mat... matching your invoices to deposits... surveying all of your customers as to how much they paid you over the prior tax periods... estimating your sales based upon other similarly situated businesses in the area... Everything is great until you get audited and either have a good auditor or disclose too much information. [pro tip: disclosing too little information and being a brick wall will incentivize the auditor to try harder to nail you; it's best to at least appear compliant].
I've seen more than a few recent incidents of audits that found all or a significant portion of the cash income of a business and then the business was impotent to turn around and deduct the employee/contractor expenses that were paid in cash. In those instances, the tax bill is often six figures and the business ends. Moreover, due to the large discrepancy in what was reported and what was found, you have fraud penalties to boot. The businesses end up shutting down and the owners become saddled with debt that is sometimes not dischargeable... rarely are they ever criminally prosecuted, but it's not unheard of.
In short, I strongly suggest against paying routine/regular employees with cash off the books... in most instances, it's not worth it and you're only saving a small percentage of employer taxes anyway. Unemployment insurance is ~$500 per employee per year, presuming they max out at a $12k salary cap at ~3.5-4%. They can opt out of workman's comp in most cases... and the employer only pays half of FICA (7.65%). The risk isn't worth the reward.
---only way the current tax authorities can go to work on you is if you need to succeed. If you just barely get by... there isn't much they can do to ya. It's possible to live on about $4500/yr and take the EITC... there are more people (potential high achievers) than you can imagine who do just this rather than deal with the loathesome IRS.
It's a real thing of beauty the crop of shitheads elected by your neighbors have created in the last 50-60 years. /s
I am so glad you don't eat fish or vegetables and you can get all you need from the virtualized world.
Silly.
I don't do it for a living, but growing fruit and veg is very satisfying. I'd like to do talapia one day.
I am so retarded to want to grow it myself, know what is (not) in it and to watch it grow, from vine to flowers to tomatoes for instance. Yes, a real retard. I like my retardation very well.
Seems to me if you have a brat or two living in your basement and they have part time jobs, then your household income would have risen...
Unless you got the pay cut, the spouse got canned, and there are no good prospects for the future.
nailed it, childern, wards of the parents and state with poor life skills, shacked up da basement smoking pot, hanging out and "looking for a job". the go getters are off doing real work in construction ect. and plenty of middle incomers for the lucky bs degreed lottery winners that actually found a job doing what they studied for.
This article is complete MSM bullshit. Almost no one is happy with their jobs and no one is happy that the best job they can get is barrista at Starbucks while the MSM pretends there is a recovery. You shouldn't swallow this dogshit hook, line, and sinker.
Totally agree. Is there a measure for the 0-17 year olds still in school? College?Wtf? Regardless, I wouldn't trust a 1000 point measure if that measure wasn't measured.
Either this is pretty good sarcasm or you are a hopeless Troll in need of a life. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and upvote you. But I'm keeping my eye on you...
... "Why Do So Many Working Age Americans Choose Not To Enter The Workforce?"
... IMO ...
... quick answer: lack of proper training ...
... probable answer: didn't know anyone in that company to vouch for applicant ...
... dismissive answers: under-qualified; over-qualified; not a fit; wrong skin-colour; poor hygiene; poor interview presentation; filtered-out-due-to-some-unknown-reason; etc., ...
... lazy answers: make more on welfare than hourly rate offered; mom and dad always pay the bills ...
... cool answer: would rather hang out with sex, drugs and rock and roll ...
If things go tits up for the English Zero Hedge readers. Rebirth yourself in a local Amish community. Arrive humble and with an open mind.
Why Do So Many Working Age Americans Choose Not To Enter The Work Force?.........
Why Do So Many Service Age American Dogs Choose Not To Avoid Licking Their Balls?
Same reason. Because they can, man.
Excuse me! I don't appreciate that characterization. Try being white, male and sub 60 years old with no job, probably worse for minorities. You can get food stamps IF you get them to qualify you and the finger! Try getting a section 8 housing subsidy, welfare, anything ... they will look at you and in their mind give you the finger mentally saying ..."get to work lazy!". When your money runs out you either move into the woods in live in the camps full of unemployed males or you f_cking find a way to make scratch.
Thats your fault you were born with a penis...No free lunch unless your parents will subsidize you..
Actually I think the penis is the issue, but not how you may think. The majority of men have been chained down by this servitude called child support. For a number of reasons. The job market, at least in my area, caps out at around $15 an hour. So let's do the math:
(If you can find a 40 hr a week job)
15 * 40 = $600 * 4 (weeks) = $2400.00
(After taxes)
$2400 @ .30% = $1680
(In Florida they garnish up to 50% AFTER TAXES)
$1680 / 2 (or half) = $840.00
Now imagine expenses for general living. But when you break it down from there you are making BELOW minimum wage.
Any Questions?
Guess your stats would change if you had worn a condom?
Less gangsta garbage about "bitchez" and maybe a little bit of condom use.
FU
reality is after taxes 1700 to pay rent, food, maintain car if possible, and healthcare co pays and deductibles, assuming the job has full tyme benifits. not good w/o second income.
So, pardonnez moi, but what is your point? Are you saying that the penis gets to spurt and take no responsibility for that spurt?
Your premise is "Wow" look at child support payments? Well what about the "spurtee?" and the resulting life? Frig your stats.
Maybe $$$ would be saved by handing out condoms on every street. (but we do not wish to impede male enjoyment now, do we? NO we do not wish to impede male enjoyment by condoms/birth control. We just wish to impede the responsibility of the outocme of the act. So inconvenient it is. To have to work to pay for your actions. Kinda impedes your ability to buy another drink and strut your stuff and do it again.)
I have two orifices on my body that can be penetrated readily. I guard them very closely and there is NO way I can be impregnated. Women have three. In my experience a woman who guards her orifices well has no need to worry about any of the above. And smart women make damn sure ther is a condom involved if not married. And today c meth and HIV you have to be an idiot not to use a condom.
I know this is definitely politically incorrect but you womb, my child, your child, and what you or I do with them is none of their business. If you think it is then you are definitely on the wrong website.
That fuck you got was nothing compared to the fucking you'll be getting for 18 or more years.
Hey dipshit... a) keep your dick in your pants. B)improve your marketable skills so you arent stuck in a less than $15/hr job. Stop fucking whinning, grow some balls.
Hey dipshit...
a) Have you ever told that to an irresponsible teenager whose surge of hormones and RERODUCTIVE INSTINCTS override any rational thought of long term consequences?
b) Do you have any teenagers. or children at that, BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO LACK BALLS?
c) Education and training in order to obtain a Technical Degree is fine and dandy...except for the fact that THERE ARE NO JOBS. Contrary to the popular opinion expressed on these pages ONE THIRD OF ALL BACHELOR'S DEGREES AWARDED SINCE 2000 have been awarded for STEM studies. (Science, Technlogy, Engineering, and Mathematics)
It is too bad that Foreign Exchange Students have earned a large percentage of the degrees in that 33%. BUT THERE ARE NO JOBS to support the remainder issued to US Nationals as the FUCKING JOBS HAVE BEEN OFFSHORED.
d) Men's dicks stiffen and womens twats wetten. It takes TWO to tango, there, idiot. And the women also have that BIOLOGICAL URGE TO REPRODUCE.
So go and give yourself a hand.
If sex between 3 people is a threesome,
And sex between 4 people is a foursome,
I know why I'm handsome.
Agreed.... You articulated the issue much better. I was lazy and using sarc to make your point
The Amish are smelly hypocrites. They all have nice pickup trucks and they fucking live off WaWa convenience shit food. I always wanted to know how they decided what the optimum time in history was. They seem to have stopped the clock at 1880. Why? Why don't they live and dress like 1650, 1725 or 1980? Fuck them and their dumb hair!
also plenty scrapping by and missing payments w/ elec shut off and locked at meter. tons of beaters for cars, fatties galore, the new merica, a fucking disgrace imo, slobs that throw shit everywhere, dogs barking, and kids running around w/no parent. very mixed if ya know what i mean. scketchy, if ya know what i mean. shit ripped off weekly. cops raided a unit this morning. yup it is happening; boots on the ground reporting first hand. i laugh, cause they got where they are by choices they made...don't help that merica was ripped and stripped clean by the club/mob.
fsa is a force to be reckoned with some day, lots of pent up anger brewing...
And a lot working off the books, grey or black-market. I've seen quite a bit of this, especially in areas where legitimate labor has little leverage: $10-15 per-hour under-the-table is a lot more than $11.00 an hour before taxes.
I'm fine with people working off the books as long as they don't collect any government benefits. I wouldn't exactly vountarily hand over 20% of my paycheck to the US scumbag politicians to enrich themselves if I had the choice.
Which is another reason there is a war-on-cash.
My Paki friend tells me this is why Pakis, Indians, etc prefer those cash businesses like convenience stores and hotels. Also expalins why some of these lawn mowing business people and electricians, plumbers are sometimes very very wealthy. Lots of unreported cashola.
Don't call it under-the-table. It's the Cash Economy which is why politicians are always dreaming of ways to outlaw cash.
Absolutely. I've been in the web development business for a couple years and the majority of potential subcontractors I've interviewed ask me for under-the-table pay. With the Indian students I tried hiring once, they took it a step further asking for extra hours under the table, which breaks immigration law (I'm glad I got rid of them immediately, anyone asking you to risk jail so they can get money is not someone you want to do business with). Ironically, I talked with an Indian friend about it afterwards, and he tells me he's been burned every time he tried hiring people from India and as such only hires Americans.
$10-15 an hour off the books really isn't a lot of money, so I could see a lot of people going this route and skipping the $25+/hour businesses.
I figure this is another reason they're going after cash; there has to be a good bit of untaxed money in the gray/black market.
Milaca sucks but St. Paul is much worse...
lots of people don't like it up there, but that is exactly what attracted me to buy some acreage and build that one last home in the woods. quiet, quiet and moar quiet. driveway in 660 feet back in(168 tons 3 " crush delivered and spread Monday-$2850 total coast) the woods, next elec serv, and slab on grade infloor heat via outside woodburner, next spring, gen. contractor tyme, kickoff of the dream finally coming to reality...
sitting duckie you are.
naw, lots of friends, family and escapes avail. but i'm not worried about something that will not be affecting me. it is called insignifcance, nobody give a fuck about me cept my son next door. we can handle our own shit just fine. no specifics needed, cept nite tyme is the right tyme...
And you're right next to Heggies Pizza. Yum
And you're right next to Heggies Pizza. Yum
Heggies, walleye fish much??
Who's the bitch and who's the Alpha? In the jungle the Lion that leads a pride lounges around all day while his bitches go out and hunt him food. Then he fucks them raw and goes back to sleep.
Who is the bitch and who is the Alpha? You work? You're the bitch. The fat lazy Lion with the harem is the Alpha living off you bitches.
End of story.
that is the newest Yankee fuck dream being brainwashed into many minority and emulating "cool" Caucasian male minds these decades. This Hip Hop, Rap crap has ingrained exactly what you speak of into many formative male brains.
I live in a small community with limited and seasonal employment. A few permanent well paid jobs that mostly involve teaching, utilities, health care, forestry,
So how come there are all these new 4X4 $50,000 PLUS trucks everywhere? Everyone here is driving some sleek new vehicle but me.
ME? I am saving every dime I can after paying every dime I can on debt. And my thrill is in finding a 1997 Diesel Cummins RAM with low miles and one owner. Paid cash....
So where are all these other "folks" getting the credit to drive these over-priced monster machines? Average lease or debt payment on one of these if you run it out over 5 years is still over $500/month. Are people insane?
nice choice-the cummings
It's shocking to see the number of boomers coming out of retirement. I work at a reference lab for 5 hospitals so we have couriers coming every hour with specimens. 20 years ago it what mostly college boys lugging the heavy coolers. Now it's almost all 60+ men. It is so tragic to see them trying to pull the dolly up the stairs, hold the door open and drag their load inside. Not one happy face, just resignation. I help them when I can but they rarely make eye contact or say anything more than " thanks for helping me". I know each probably has a sad story.
The truth is there is no retirement for regular people. We are to row the oars until we die.
Miffed
Nailed it Miffed. I'm in construction. Going to a job the other day I observed two roofing guys getting ready in the AM for work. I know I'm no spring chicken, but the one guy HAD to be pushing 70, grunting with the carry on the ground. Perhaps he was pushing 60 and had medical problems, who knows? It's hot as hell over here in SE VA, near 100F humidity index, I have to take my shirt off to work and display my hot mercades for the world to see. Don't care, so others probably think the same of me. Kind of funny the way life works.
Whoa! I remember years ago watching the roofers work on a house in the 100+ degree summer sun. Strong tanned white guys lugging 75lb pallets of tile on their shoulder as they walked up a ladder. Jaw dropping. Like watching a living Adonis. Now Adonis is pudgy, fanning himself in the shade drinking a big Gulp, while overseeing a bunch of scrawny Mexicans doing the job.
Be damn proud of yourself if you can still work an outside job. I helped Mr build our new porch in the hot sun and it was damn hard work pushing 15 foot Trex boards up to the second story of our house. A 75X50 foot deck is a lot of boards. He had a guy to help install them but I was helper demo/ set up girl. I guess I was cheaper. We all worked topless but I did keep on my yoga sport top. Didn't want any nail gun mishaps! ;-)
Miffed;-)
If boomers are coming out of retirement in masses, after enjoying a few years of it, and riding the housing bubble and stock bubble from the post 71 Nixon-dollar fiat, imagine what is going to be the future for Millenials and Generation X and YÑ we have over 200 trillion in unfunded liabilities, to pay for benefits we will never enjoy, skyrocketing student debt, jobs with wages adjusted to inflation lower than anywhere over the last 30 years.... and a million other problems that can´t be mathematically solved. We will just simply work until the day we drop dead
Agreed. I don't believe it for a minute.
I wonder how they collected theser statistics.
Fonestar will never get a life! Never!
Can I buy some water?
Yes, $100 per gallon.
Ok, here is my bitcoin information. Can I please have your Bitcoin address so that I know where to send it when the Internet comes back?
Wait... so I technically have nothing but writing until this thing comes back online?
Well, you can trade that writing.
Eat a dick! I need something physical.
u
C@n
eat muh D
I
C
K
Eating dicks is exactly what bitcoin buyers will be doing when they can't do a damned thing with their virtual currency. At least sucking a dick is a real service that benefits the suckee.
Hey public, you don't pay property tax on you Gold, and he who owns Gold is not a pay check to paycheck Neanderthal to be influenced by the Matrix.
Gold owners have the wisdom of 6000 years history .
Yep. Get out of debt, downsize, don't fall for the scams for new cars, etc. and move somewhere with less taxes and it's amazing how little work you HAVE to do to stay alive.
+1
I've come to define financial success in terms of how much of your income you need to make ends meet. The traditional wisdom is to increase income, but decreasing expenses also works. Loan-to-value is another great metric.
The other side of this that I've learned about is how critical TIME is. A relative was telling me about how a guy was 'successful' because he earned $200k/year. With a little probing I found he was working 100 hours a week, so net he was pulling about $40 an hour. Meanwhile, you can screw around on codecademy.com for a few months building cute website tools, and get a higher hourly rate doing dev contracting in about a year. Who are they kidding? Why waste your time and health?
I've been downsizing for quite a while now.
I'm in a small apartment, on the edge of town, so I'm close to countryside - great for hiking and biking and just being alone with my thoughts. I gave up TV last century, credit card about 8 years ago. Not had a car now for 5 years. I cycle a LOT - transport and enjoyment. I got back into archery after about 40 years break and I've recently taken up making my bows, arrows etc. No debt.
I do a job I mostly enjoy and I try not to buy anything I don't need (tools are different!)
The less I'm involved with what passes for society these days, the better I feel.
(Takes in looooooong breath.....)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......
(That just sounds so freakin' awesome.)
We are with you brother. Living with less, not by choice, but not "contributing" to government theft any more either. It's all give and take. We stopped giving to the takers. We'll make it and if not we never would have anyway.
Honestly.....I can not find ANYONE. I need 3 or 4 good people right now. I have been looking for 9 months. I even have friends & Family looking with a finders fee of $1000 if they can find somebody. If YOU know anybody in the Car Audio industry that is looking to move out here to Oregon....send me an email. We need 2 salesman and 2 remote start installers. Full TIME. Electronic Sales....and Car Audio installation. Starts around $55K to $70K a year...and we pay upwards of $115,000 a year if you are top notch. I see NOW HIRING everywhere I go. Was just at the beach yesterday...every shop "NOW HIRING". I don't get it. I could open another store or 2 if I had the people. I can't find people...sad.
The applications that I see come accross my desk are WORTHLESS. Where are the good motivated young people...like I was?
Are you willing to train people? There is a great disconnect in skills in the younger generation. If you don't take them in and train them, they will never get a chance and grow older and older without any significant work experience. The small biz owner boomers who make/do real things need to take in and train hard working millennials who come their way.
No one worth two shits coming your way?
Good point. Many parents are lax about training their kids - to cook, sew, iron, change a flat, do their laundry...
I've tried that.Keep on having to fire them.If they can't ring and text freely on my dime
they just aren't interested.Take their blankey away, and they walk.
I know addiction when I see it, without their smartphone they start jonesing worse than
a mainlining heroin addict..
the youngin's just don't seem to have an ounce of inspiration to work, or work ethic or to to try and learn. Be early-forget it, sweep the floors, I'm not doing that. simple stuff.
'work" makes my head hurt.
Years ago asked a suitor of my younger teenage sister, "So, do you have any job plans this summer?"
His response: "I'm not much of a worker."
Glad she dumped that heroin addict!
@BandGap: Parents today cripple their children by (a) living and teaching a life where food mostly comes out of packages, (b) living and teaching a life where things get replaced, not because they are broken, but because there is some hot new shit out that you just gotta get, and (c) by giving tech toys to kids at very young ages. In discussion of (c), this didn't really make as much of an impact in the 80s and 90s because video games were hooked to the teevee, computers were desktop machines, people didn't have cellphones at large, and kids still went out to play. The modern portable screen changed everything.
As for basic tasks like cooking, sewing, ironing, fixing your bike, etc., it's a matter of monkey see doodoo, money doo doodoo. The kids will watch and do what their parents do, most of the time. That's how I learned to cook, by watching my mother since I was very young.
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@Winston Churchill: Everyone has been conditioned to expect and provide immediate electronic response, not just the millennials. Youngsters tend to have many a social platform to keep up with, including the online dating and fuckbuddy apps and what-have-you. It's a big time and emotional investment. The Internet world does not stop for you, and you need to keep up with it if you want to be in the know-how of the latest and greatest information: information addiction. Surely you have run into millennials who don't need to be on the phone everyday. I hope?
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@ali-ali-al-qomfri: You are generalizing, but the generalization may not be false.,There are plenty of people who do work hard and have been sent to skool and then kollege, walking out with fuckall for knowledge and no skills whatsoever. They expect that they are "engineers" or "biologists" or whatever because the piece of paper says so, but they have no skills to show for it. Someone needs to whip their asses in shape and give them real skills. Where are they going to come from? Yet no one is stepping up to the plate, and even if they are like Winston Churchill, the results are seemingly disastrous?
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Without training the next generation, many of the current jobs will die with the current generation workers who can't retire and will work them till their deaths. Getting the younger generation into the door means letting the requirements loose on # of years of experience / degree / whatever, and giving people a chance to blossom. If an individual doesn't blossom because of an inability to give a shit, that's a different story.
Not enough as a %.
Its narcissism pure and simple. Just as each succesive Prez gets worse,so each succesive generation
gets more infatuated with themselves.
Its a slippery degenerate slope, and we are near the bottom of the barrel.
I think I did a few things right.
My son just got back from tree planting near the Manitoba border - worked his arse off for 2 months.
Back just long enough to sort out his passport then off to see the world.
21 and a qualified chef, on his own dime.
Daughter in college - working to do it - I'm still recovering from the financial consequences of her mother, so I'm little help.
She's a great cook (nearly as good as the chef son!) and extremely independent.
They both realize that life is for living - on their own terms.
Good people, both, and I'm not the only one to say it.
As an engineer who graduated in '02 I knew once I got the degree the real work was going to start. Took 6 months for me to find a job. Never chased money so I just wanted a job, it was a lot less than my classmates were getting. Got raises fast because I worked hard to build relations with the owners and tried to learn every single thing I could, didn't matter what. After floating through a few companies I ended up starting my own at the age of 29. I knew I was getting ready to really get satrted on the journey. Here I am about 8 years later making more, running the business from home, and have a much better lifestyle.
None of this was glamorous. I was working 80+ hours per week at one job, but also doubled my experience in a short time.
Most of my friends have the same mindset, just took this in different directions with similar outcomes. We all grew up relatively poor. My fiance says I am the cheapest person she has ever met. And I just laugh and say see that's how we can have nice things and not have to completely struggle like other people with nice things. I also must look funny to the neighbors as I sit outside pulling weeds, mowing the lawn and taking care of the house.
As to training? What a complete PITA to hire a person.
Training is not necessarily teaching all the little things that take to get a job done, though it could be. There lies the fundamental difference in the two types of worker: there is the kind that is given a problem and says "I'm going to find the solution" and uses the scientific method to come to a conclusion. The other kind of worker looks for instruction on how to solve the problem. A small business usually wants to hire the go-getters, but it needs to give the other kind a shot too. For the go-getters learning or using technical skill is just a matter of hours available, and training is usually guidance in best practices, process, dos and don'ts of the field, tricks of the trade... shit you don't pick up unless doing something for years and years on end. For the instruction-seekers who are fresh out of school, where do they go? Who will give them a shot at becoming skilled at something? It's gotta be businesses, especially small ones, which are under attack.
More like no businesses want to train anyone at all. Unless of course that trainee also fits one of their must have minority slots.
I've heard it's because the moment you train someone with real skills, they are more valuable, and thus in a position to negotiate more salary or walk. Also, if you can do actual quality work these days there are companies that will pay top dollar and poach you.
Therefore, for the employer the ideal employee either 1) knows everything but will gladly undersell himself (H1B) or 2) knows *just enough* to do the job, but not enough to be truly in demand. I used to wonder why my company spends as much as they do on contractors, but now I know; they'd rather pay $150 an hour for someone to copy and paste bits of code a couple hours a week so that the employee they pay $20 an hour doesn't have a justification to demand $40.
I have never seen or heard of so much turnaround on employees as one job I had where they mostly had contractors. A large chunk of these people were the bottom of the barrel, so they were traded out like baseball cards. People just sitting in their chair snoring. Others who came in saying they knew how to do this or that, so my project manager would give them something simple, and they didn't know how to do it. Gone. In with the next one. I would eventually try to train these people who knew everything, and they wouldn't take any advice. Gone. Pretty crazy few years at that company. Turned out just myself and the project manager did more work than having a team of 20 surrounding us. And his saying was, if they let half the building go, the owners wouldn't notice except they would have bigger paychecks.
I have been asking around for someone who knows how to do what my company needs, and talked to another business owner who said its nearly impossible to find that position. He said even if you sketch out a design, most people can't design that into the plans. Again, like the above, I have, as well as others, tried training people and they still don't get it. We are at plaid level.
Civil Engineering field.
I'm in Des Moines Iowa, 25, i could prolly sell a stereo.
You start tomorrow $10/hr. No commission. /sarcasm.
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the guy hiring above. I just do not believe he has jobs that pay 50-60K and no one is willing to work for that amount with experience.
Actually, smells like b.s. to me. See, in this day of the Internet, one can quickly google things like Car Audio Installer's salary in just about every part of the country.
>Starts around $55K to $70K a year...and we pay upwards of $115,000 a year if you are top notch.
The average yearly salary for Car Audio Installer in Molalla, Oregon is $25,860. If you are just beginning to work a new job as a Car Audio Installer in Molalla, Oregon, you could earn a starting pay rate of $21,296annually. As is true for most jobs and careers, you can expect your hourly pay rate or salary to increase as you gain experience and the longer you are employed with the same employer. In Molalla you could potentially make an average income of around $30,423 after several years on the job with increased wages. When pursuing your career of choice, you should compare salaries of similar professions and factor in variables such as health benefits and potential for raises and promotions over time.
Another site put the median salary at around $31K...
Sorry, you simply aren't passing the sniff test.
Right on. This guy is full of shit. In the construction industry I hear guys begging for people to come and work for them all over the news. The reality is that they want 20 year experienced people (like me) who start @ $12/hr then gradually move up to to... Yea right fuck them.
Last guy we hired was 8 months ago from Hertz Rent a car...He was installing GPS tracker systems in all of the rental cars. He was making $14 an hour...now he is averaging $37 an hour. My friends it is real.
I was just at a construction site and the foreman was complaining how the sweepers got paid $42/hr which was more than the skilled carpenters, I think $37/hr. I told him I can shut down my engineering business right now if he needs another sweeper.
Mollala??? Huh?? $21K to $31K......That is funny. Full of shit...really? Bring it on. I need them now.
Send your resume any time.... I put ads everywhere...I even have my Reps looking all over the west coast. Put your nut sack forward then. I am
This is the Internet...Craigslist..FAIL Job sites..>FAIL I have tried and tried and you say I am full of shit. Sad.
www.OutrageousAudio.com
How about a CAREERS link on your website?
Every car audio shop I've ever been to in America was full of Mexicans. Just hire a bunch of sleezy ass Mexicans and be done with it. Yes, they'll smoke weed on the job out back but you should be cool with that out in Oregon you Leftist slime.
Better weed than drinking.
I own a staffing compnay in Seattle and our biggest problem is worker shortage. Not just qualified workers, any workers. 50% of our scheduled interviews are a NSNC.
People just do not want to work which means they are getting by from a variety of other sources, disability, cash jobs, welfare or whatever.
Flame away, but if you are not working in Seattle it is because you do not want to.
sschu
Jobs available with a $15/hr minimum wage. It seems to be limited to Oregon. There is virtually no work on the east coast.
Seattle min wage is just $11 now, will be $15 in a couple years.
Oh, I kept hearing everyone scream bloody murder over $15 an hour.
I hear you clearly. I needed a couple of admin gals and put a notice on Craig's List. Shit ton of resumes (for shits and giggles time when most of them come in - hiint - it's when the bars close on Friday and Saturday nights around 10 to 11).
I hire women - east WA white ones (they know how to work and behave) or Asian women (work like Trojans and don't bitch) - particularly Japanese and Korean Americans.
Most of the guys I have interviewed are either too high maintenence, incapable of being in an office enviroment, metros or homos (too much drama and shoving plastic and metal scrap up your ass jumps up the health care premiums).
The security firm down the way had a hiring day - you would have thought it was a methadone clinic give away day. I swear most of the applicants were right out of jail or Somalis.
The minimum wage deal is complete bullshit. I pay the babysitter 20 bucks an hour. If you can fog a mirror and show up for work you are already way past min wage scale.
>Can't find ANYONE
>The applications coming accross my desk are WORTHLESS
DOES NOT COMPUTE DOES NOT COMPUTE DOES NOT COMPUTE
$115K to install car stereos?
You, dear sir, are full of shit.
Damn, that's a lot more than I make. Hell, I could do that. If I can help dismantle and repair a DNA/RNA robot extractor, a car stereo couldn't be much more difficult.
I agree. This has to be bullshit.
Miffed
Well.......That is what can be made. Sorry that you doubt that. 30 years in business...we treat or people great. We have the best of the best...and we do train.
Not sure if you mentioned but what exactly are these installers doing? Custom work for athletes or typical simple alarm installs? I live very close to where the new West Coast Customs just went in, so I can imagine there are some places that could pull this off. Nice building in a decent area, not too expensive, but not too cheap. Not a typical Best Buy headunit install place.
I am getting a new sub and box for my car, and reading how slim the margins are for the good audio car gear makes me think you do something more than slap stuff into a trunk or put in a simple alarm that any theif can cut without opening the hood.
Do you dare post your company name on here?
My .02 - I use to work a home security, automation and camera surveillance job, and would get to see a lot of unemployed young adults at homes. I would get a lot of them asking if we're hiring (at the bequest of their mothers a lot). I was always amazed when I ask what kind of experience they have, with the invariable reply of, "I know how to work on computers". They think that because they sit around and play computer games all day, that it qualify's them for a technical position. I would always think to myself, how many millions of people who know, and I mean really know, the in and outs of computers, coding, & networking, who these kids couldn't hold a candle to (especially foreign born workers). They have no reality into what it takes to work a regular 10 to 12 hour shift per day on any job, let alone what they think their computer experience might get them in an industry that would comprise of the likes of, sitting in a cubicle all day writing code, or tracing network issues, etc. Boring, mind numbing positions, of which most foreigners would do for peanuts. It's really amazing the disconnect out there.
Uh-huh. 115k for a car audio installer, eh?
You probably think your avatar was an intelligent choice, as well.
dup
I just read a comment over at nakedcapitalism.com which is most appropriate to this stooopid discussion (not your comment, but most of them here today).
Before I repeat it, one more time for the fucktards here today: NAFTA, GATT, China into the WTO, how many millions and millions of jobs offshored?
How many foreign visa scab workers have been brought over to replace existing American workers.
And oh, yes, how many American workers have been Lebowitzed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/gaius-publius-the-rorschach-candidacy-of-hillary-clinton.html
Ishmael
So Hillary wants to be a populist and create jobs for the middle class. What most people seem to miss that specifically when the Clinton Administration negotiated the trade agreement for China US manufacturing (can you say middle class high paying jobs) were specifically thrown under the bus and in return US financial institutions were given access to China (Robert Rubin ie Mr. Goldman Sachs and Citicorp). I looked at that when it was happening and thought that is idiotic – financial institutions in China will hire Chinese workers while we lose hundreds of thousands of middle class jobs. Tell me do you think this caused the spread between rich and poor to grow much larger. Not only were middle-middle class jobs were lost but tens of thousands of upper middle class jobs were lost through this.
The author seems to wonder if Hillary will be friends to the upper class to help the vast majority but I think it is far more likely that she will throw a few crumbs to the middle class (maybe increase the SNAP benefits) while lining her contributors pockets and her, Bill and Chelsea will suck down the Veuve, eat caviar and fly around in a 747. That is the way of the top leaders in socialist countries – the masses get a few crumbs while the aristocrat live the high life.
Told ya so just the other night....
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-29/affirmatively-destroying-americas-neighborhoods-war-suburbia#comment-6369943
"Those who get the government checks can afford to bid their labor lower. The price of labor is driven down and the middle class tax payers pay what should be business costs of large corporations."
WTF?! Econo-babble from some Junior College Economics 'professor' who has never faced real-world work in his life.
Apparently you have never actually attempted to hire a current day welfare recipient. We pay $23 per hour for local, non-union, untrained drivers (that we train), ony to have them walk off after the first day because they realize they get MUCH more in benefits and don't acutally "have to get up early to go to work" (to quote quite a few of them).
There is no need, desire, or ethic, to work when it's so much easier to accept the hand-outs and sit in front of a TV all day instead of getting up early, get sweaty during the day and actually DO things.
And this is welfare recipients of all races, colors, ethnicities...if they're on a hand-out, that's where they want to stay in today's world. Any other thought is complete bullshit.
I know a guy, same age as me, who refused to go to work for a well paid job BECAUSE he had to be there at 7 am.
Said he would not have time to do the crossword puzzle in the morning. So turned away from a union starting wage of $24/hr. (plus benefits and increases) because of crossword puzzle issues. ( my partner in crime works in the union industry to this day and makes well over $100K/year on a 10 month cycle...but works hard for that. 10-12 hour days. Works very hard for this middle class existence.)
NOW this same guy, 15 years later, is still living in an apartment in a building owned by the guy who used to employ him to do construction (on his own crossword puzzle terms)...problem is this owner is winding down his business,
My friend now expects his landlord/boss to look after him in his elder years. Missed rent? Place is a pig sty. This guy is now unemployed, on welfare, in poor health, and alcoholic to the max. But still has his crossword puzzles.
I look to the day the building sells and he is in the gutter....cursing the system and his old boss.
He walked away from a good living due to the NYT crossword puzzle and an alarm clock that got him up to go to work, /sarc
Gotta admit though. Them crossword puzzles are addicting as hell!
True, but it's even better if you go Systeme D.
If this is the magic number:
What percentage of that are stay at home parent, or even a spouse? It's pretty effin presumptious to assume all 93 million people don't work and don't want to work. Implying that something esoteric is keeping them from doing so?
I'll answer the question:
Because a significant number of them are economically empowered not to.
They just don't need to work. It's free, swipe yo EBT!
Also, many are completely incapable or unprepared to make a contribution to society, thru lacking education, intellegence, or work ethic.
There's even a song about that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzspsovNvII
Decline and Fall of Mankind
Ah, she updated her video, increased the video and editing quality since I last watched it a few years ago.
This is nothing more than the Democratic party creating a new slave class to pick votes
So, same thing as the 1600s-to-Civil War then?
Yep. All done now under the guise of Love. Here, shoot that heroin in the name of Love, or abort that kid in the nmae of Love
You wouldn't think they'd encourage abortion, that could be a potential voter.
nah, they got that covered. everyone that has died since 1950 votes democrap
Fuck. I am taxed to death with six kids and a mortgage. If I had only known. And I push my kids through college to support this shit.
This was fostered for a purpose. The next stage of the plan (a few years down the road) is to turn the spigot off. Already they are talking about cutting SS benefits, that should go over well. When the money dries up (and the time is of the govenrment's choosing) the shit will really be flying.
The big picture involving a military style police force and FEMA camps starts to make sense, doesn't it?
I pity your children if they are white. It's no country for white men.
How I look back with love, growing up in Region X.
For the uninitiated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzspsovNvII
Really?
How many American subconsciously KNOW that they are giving ALL of their caloric energy to their fucking jool masters?
Lots right?
You work a full day for a half handful of jool confetti. Of that half handful the fucking federal government is there to take half. The the state steps in, then the fucking municipal steps in, the property, sales, ec-fucking-cetra.
The Amish way is the only way America.
Planned Parenthood is hiring baby-part sorters.
Lion meat ‘trophy’ was served at Zimbabwe dictator’s recent birthday
http://tinyurl.com/paqpmxl
Not everyone is qualified in the competitive and highly technical barista track, so that leaves drooling and living in the basement, eating semi-identifiable fast food and whining about how unfair life is plus organizing for Bernie.....
One of the more retarded examples of cherry-picked, goal-sought pieces of gibberish I've read at ZH recently.
The people who aren't "labor force participants" by BLS definition also, by this dumbass' definition, "don't want work?"
Then he goes on to prove, by irrelevant data gained from the wondrously happy people with jobs, that jobs are great, so the problem is the people who don't have them.
Couldn't be a lack of jobs, noooo.
Nick Colas has declared himself a moron with a job on this one: beating off to his own bleatings in the echo chamber of ign'unt social discord. Blame da goddamn welfare.
Bing-fucking-O Bob!
What I said above this poll is full of shit cause mostly everybody hates their fucking job and the lousy pay.
Except the older dudes I know who own their business, charge a fortune and work when they want or seasonally.
These highly paid private equity clowns need everyone to believe there is a sub-culture of lazy, entitled people and everyone else is making a liveable wage to keep the asset bubbles going. If everyone realized how shitty the economy is, Mr. Colas' investments may be in the toilet.
"whining about how unfair life is plus organizing for Bernie"....Yep. Moved into a new place in a hipster part of town, Bernie 2016 stickers all over the fucking place. No intelligent life anywhere.
+100 for misspelling "intelligence" while decrying the lack of intelligence in society at large.
And how many are just spouses or a parent with the other spouse being the bread winner?
Because there's so much money to be made selling fetuses, duh. Why slave your ass off when you can get laid, pump out biological material, and sell it for Lamborghinis?
Life paid vacation. Why work? Plenty of time for the arts, literature, classical educational endeavors at local colleges, joining church and NGOs helping out fellow less fortunate fellow beings, writing, acting, painting, transcending the temporal to spiritual freedom and enduring self satisfaction.
I particularly enjoying transcending the temporal. That, and postmodernism. And cubism.
Please do not forget Abstract Expressionism. It's just so, um, um...
It's a SNAP an EBT.... And fucking lazy!
My wife is in the category of eligible to work but doesn't . We are happy for her to be a full time mom and spend time raising our kids. I don't see how this is a bad thing. She is neither fat, nor lazy. Why do we all expect all mothers to be in the workforce rather that raising our kids?
Good for you, but most people can no longer afford that, due to the ruinous costs of housing, taxes, and medical care.
Welfare, housewives, and low grade drug dealing are the answers to this painfully silly question.
Why should I pull my weight when you can pull it for me?
Why pay 100 grand to get a piece of paper that allows you to apply for a boring as fuck, shite desk job in the middle of a city at which you need another loan to pay for a ridiculous wardrobe that only stupid work collegues will ever look at before getting in another 'bank loaned' vehicle in a park that costs a fortune because there aint no public transport to get you to your shit box excuse for a pad, at which you have to pay 500$ a week for, which is why you have to work the boring as fuck, shite job in the first place, which you could only obtain by spending 100 grand on a piece of paper....... when you can mow the lawn down the street for cash before making something in your shed in the spare time that you have, that is actually worth while quality, instead of buying the utterly crap Chinese plastic 'sell out for profit' variety at a fucking mall.
Screw the rat race, its a farcical shit show..
Not to nitpick, but who the fuck would pay $2000 a month in rent to work in a city with no public transportation?