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Dropping "The Bomb" On Hiroshima And Nagasaki Was Never Justified
Submitted by Naji Dahi via TheAntiMedia.org,
August 6th and 9th of 2015 mark the 70th anniversary of the U.S. dropping two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This was the first and only time a state used a nuclear device on cities (or civilians) of another state. Some conservative estimates put the immediate death toll of the two bombs at 200,000 people. This is more than the total number of American soldiers killed in the Pacific front of World War II.
Since the bombs were dropped, the U.S. government, U.S. high school history texts, and the American public have asserted that dropping the bombs was necessary. According to one review of American textbooks by Satoshi Fujita, an assistant professor of U.S. modern history at Meiji University,
“…most of the textbooks published by the early 1980s carried the U.S. government’s official view that the nuclear attacks allowed the U.S. troops to avert the invasion of Japan’s mainland and minimize American casualties, thus contributing to an early conclusion of the war.”
American politicians have continued to espouse this view. Primary among them was Harry S. Truman, the one-term president responsible for making the decision to drop the bombs in August of 1945. In his 1955 memoirs, Truman claimed the bombs saved half a million American lives. Truman insisted he felt no remorse and bragged that “he never lost any sleep over that decision,” while simultaneously referring to the Japanese as “savages, ruthless, merciless, and fanatic.” By 1991, George H.W. Bush claimed dropping the bombs saved millions of American lives. Historian Peter Kuznick sums up the ever-increasing number of American lives saved due to these actions:
“…from the War Department’s 1945 prediction of 46,000 dead to Truman’s 1955 insistence that General George Marshall feared losing a half million American lives to Stimson’s 1947 claim of over 1,000,000 casualties to George H.W. Bush’s 1991 defense of Truman’s ‘tough calculating decision, [which] spared millions of American lives,’[11] to the 1995 estimate of a crew member on Bock’s Car, the plane that bombed Nagasaki, who asserted that the bombing saved six million lives—one million Americans and five million Japanese.”
Twenty years ago (the 50th anniversary of the bombings) when the Smithsonian Museum tried to create a thought-provoking display about Enola Gay (the plane that dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima), the Senate threw a temper tantrum and passed a resolution condemning the move. The resolution stated that
“…the Enola Gay during World War II was momentous in helping to bring World War II to a merciful end, which resulted in saving the lives of Americans and Japanese.”
Of course, none of these figures about saved American lives are true. When President Truman was contemplating dropping the bomb, he consulted a panel of experts on the number of American soldiers that would be killed if the U.S. launched an invasion of the two main Japanese islands. According to historian Christian Appy,
“[Truman] did…ask a panel of military experts to offer an estimate of how many Americans might be killed if the United States launched the two major invasions of the Japanese home islands…Their figure: 40,000 – far below the half-million he would cite after the war. ”[emphasis added]
Americans are socialized to believe that dropping the bombs was necessary to end the war. As recently as January 2015, a Pew poll found that 56% of Americans believed dropping the two atomic devices was justified. Only 34% said it was not justified. This American attitude is understandable given the downplaying of Japanese deaths and the exaggeration of American lives saved in high school history books.
In spite of this public perception, dropping the nuclear bombs was totally unnecessary from a military standpoint. America’s leading generals voiced their concerns before and after the bombs were dropped. General Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Western Europe, reacted to the news in a way that contradicts politicians’ narratives:
“During his [Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson] recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives ,” he said. [emphasis added]
General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in the Pacific, was not even consulted about the use of the bomb. He was only notified two days before the first bomb was dropped. When he was informed he thought “‘…it was completely unnecessary from a military point of view.’ MacArthur said that the war might ‘end sooner than some think.’ The Japanese were ‘already beaten.’”
Tough, cigar-smoking “hawk,” General Curtis LeMay—who was responsible for the firebombing of Japanese cities—was also disappointed with the decision to drop the bomb. In an exchange with reporters he said,
“The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb. [emphasis added]”
“You mean that, sir? Without the Russians and the atomic bomb?” one journalist asked.
“The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all,” LeMay replied.
Admiral Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, sent out the following public statement: “The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan [emphasis added].”
While Eisenhower, MacArthur, LeMay, and Nimitz believed the dropping of the bombs to be unnecessary, Chief of Staff Admiral William D. Leahy went even further, insisting that even the contemplated invasion of Japan was unnecessary to end the war. He said,
“I was unable to see any justification…for an invasion of an already thoroughly defeated Japan. My conclusion, with which the naval representatives agreed, was that America’s least expensive course of action was to continue to intensify the air and sea blockade…I believe that a completely blockaded Japan would then fall by its own weight. [emphasis added]”
At the conclusion of the war in the Pacific, President Truman appointed a panel of 1000 experts to study the conflict. One third of the experts were civilians and two-thirds were military. The panel issued its report, entitled “United States Strategic Bombing Survey”—a 108 volume publication on the Pacific front. The survey makes the following damning conclusion about the necessity of dropping the the atomic bombs and invading Japan:
“Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945,…Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. [emphasis added]”
Even the Japanese leaders knew they were defeated. They were even secretly willing to negotiate an unconditional surrender. According to the survey, there was
“…a plan to send Prince Konoye to Moscow as a special emissary with instructions from the cabinet to negotiate for peace on terms less than unconditional surrender, but with private instructions from the Emperor to secure peace at any price.”
If dropping the bombs was not necessary, and if Japan was even willing to contemplate an unconditional surrender, then why were the bombs dropped at all? One reason referenced by several historians was to project American power against the future enemy in the Cold War, the U.S.S.R. As the Christian Science Monitor noted in 1992,
“Gregg Herken…observes…that ‘responsible traditional as well as revisionist accounts of the decision to drop the bomb now recognize that the act had behind…’a possible diplomatic advantage concerning Russia.’ Yale Prof. Gaddis Smith writes: ‘It has been demonstrated that the decision to bomb Japan was centrally connected to Truman’s confrontational approach to the Soviet Union.’”[emphasis added]
Secondly, there was a rather large incentive to use the bomb—to test its effectiveness. On that subject, the most succinct quote comes from Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet. He said, “[The scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before.”
According to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, the Manhattan Project (the project to build the bomb) cost the U.S. an estimated $1,889,604,000 (in 1945 dollars) through December 31, 1945. That comes out to $25,051,739,964.00 in today’s dollars. The Center goes on to add:
“Weapons were created to be used. By 1945, the bombing of civilians was already an established practice. In fact, the earlier U.S. firebombing campaign of Japan, which began in 1944, killed an estimated 315,922 Japanese, a greater number than the estimated deaths attributed to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”
From a purely numbers perspective, the detonation of the atomic bombs killed fewer people than the firebombing of the 67 Japanese cities with napalm. The sick logic of war is this: having killed close to 316,000 Japanese people by firebombing cities, killing 100,000-200,000 more is just as justifiable.
It is clear from the recitation of some of the evidence that the dropping of the atomic bombs was not necessary to end the war. It was not necessary to obviate the U.S. invasion of Japan (which in and of itself was not necessary) and it was not necessary for an unconditional surrender.
It is time for the United States to stop believing that the infamous nuclear attacks were justified. On that front, there is some hope. Back in 1991, 63% of Americans believed dropping the bombs was justified, compared to 56% today. Clearly, the numbers are heading in the right direction.
The U.S. government could easily nudge public opinion in the appropriate direction by issuing a public apology for the dropping of these weapons of mass destruction on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The U.S. is capable of doing this. In 1988, the U.S. Senate voted to compensate Japanese Americans for interning them during WWII. In 1993, President Bill Clinton signed a formal letter of apology. The U.S. did the right thing by apologizing to Japanese Americans. It is time to extend this apology to the entire Japanese nation.
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I don't have all the answers, but a sharp mind learns with time that almost all big things don't happen by accident.
The follow-up questions to Pearl Harbor you will then need to pose and answer yourself.
If there are no innocents, they why exactly are you struggling so hard to deflect most if not all blame from the US?
You should read (and contemplate) The Milgram Experiment, then reconsider your ridiculous hanging on to a perceived moral high ground.
The moral high ground is MY HIGH GROUND. America is my home, my country, my heritage, my high ground. Why would I deliberately disparage my own. What I want to know is WHY you seem to believe...to want to believe, that Japan has any higher ground than America? Why are you so intent on seeing America degraded, thought less of? To what end? Do you really think it constructive? Do you remind your spouse of her burgeoning waistline? Sorry but America is my home and I will defend it up until such time as I am convinced there is nothing left worth defending...which I'm sure is the cause at hand. America is not faultless and we all know that. We have been witnessing it for years. We should fix what we can, but turning lemonade into rotten punch doesn't seem productive to any positive ends for America, or the rest of the word for that matter. Just more divisive bullshit spread about. The world is financially unwinding so it only makes sense that we stoke up old fires of seventy years ago. Long enough that we can believe what we like with little direct rebuttal. Its on the net so its got to be true.
Muslims
Joos
civil war battle flag
Hitler and now,
Japan
What else can we dig up????
How about we go back to Korea and Vietnam. there's got to be lots of good shit there we can dig up, make up, and build a fire with.
So in short:
You're only willing to learn from other countries' mistakes, not our own.
Or:
Because a huge set of lies is unravelling right now, we have to maintain at least the other lies as some kind of "foundation."
Good luck with those attitudes.
Well said, Oldwood, bravo.
https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/pearl-harbor-a-successf...
Just shut the fuck up asshole oldwood . Yes US is a vile cunt and others.must unitw to destroy your empire od chaos once for all. Suck it up douchebag.
What really reveals the depth of their evil is, if they knew the attack was coming, they could have put the fighters in the air, put the Pear harbor ships safely to sea, and perhaps caught the Japanese Carrier task force and anhiliated it. The surprise attack would STILL HAVE INSPIRED THE US POPULATION TO RALLY FOR WAR WITH JAPAN and the loss of the carriers would have been crippling to the Japanese offensives in the Pacific, blunting their gains and shortening the war in the Pacific, thusly saving even more lives.
But, no, the EVIL FUCKS wanted the most American dead they could get at Pearl Harbor - if you think of nothing else, think of that.
RafterManFMJ ^^^^^^^^
Revisionist bullshit nonsense from an obvious idiot.
You've got to love revisionist history. I bet the 40,00o men and their families are glad that they dropped the bomb instead of sending them to their death. How about we look into who was working to profit from these wars financially and take them out.
What would have been absolutely CRAZY would have been for a US leader to decide to have 100,000+ US military die instead of sevral hundred thousand Japanese. Of couse the prompt surrender (only after the second bomb) saved the lives of the many Japanese who would have died from conventioal wrfare to invade the home islands.
It was absolutly necessary.
It gave the US the undisputed upper hand in world affairs (till Korea) and ended the war in the pacific.
It demonstrated that eggheads were not to be taken lightly.
It justified all that money spent on development.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
To sheltered leftists war is NEVER the answer - until they want something that you earned then use of violent force is completely justified.
Please continue and declare that is was a big mistake that the US didn't use a nuke in Korea when McArthur demanded it!
Yep, revisionist history again.
The bomb was dropped for one reason and one reason only. To end the war with Japan before the Soviets could invade the the northern island of Japan and to intimidate them into a more submissive stance in Europe.
Exactly right.
take a step back and look at the invasion of Saipan ----this was the persuader for Truman--
1945 was a very different time period. Lots of geopolitical moves.
actually - not really much different from today time -
Exactly wrong. See what I posted above. Better yet, download a free PDF copy of Gary Allen's book, "None dare call it Conspiracy." That book is a true history of WWII. As they always say, if you want the truth, follow the money. That book does it in spades.
Not justified? Why would anyone think it needs to be justified?
USA corporation country are COWARDS!!!!
BASTARDS but they will be fucked soonnnn
Fire bombing of Tokyo was just as bad.
Wars are inhumane activities. The 1945 fire bombing of Tokyo in WWII caused 100,000 mostly civilian deaths. The Japanese Army killed 40,000 civilians during 1937's "Rape of Nanking," killing people in the most blood thiry ways possible. The Japanese citizens A-bombed in 1945 reaped the whirlwind of their leaders' military campaigns.
citizens reaped the whirlwind of their leaders' military campaigns
Wow we're so lucky!
With that kind of rationale it is justified to kill any civilian anywhere in the world, including Americans!
Not rationale but retaliation. No one is saying it is right but when the Japanese soldiers literally butchered the Chinese residents of Nanking, those soldiers became monsters in the eyes of many people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znr4yylgGH0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmo72ITWRaM
The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan (It Was Not To End the War Or Save Lives)
Seriously? anybody here ever traveled in Japan? 40,000 US casualties on Okinawa alone. And you think they would have rolled over for a conventional invasion of Japan? ...a highly mountainous country that would have supported decades of resistance.
This is a bullshit premise that's really NOT WORTHY OF ZERO HEDGE. Most of us would not be here today IF WE HAD NOT USED THE ATOMIC BOMBS.
GO FUCK YOURSELF NAJI DAHI
Notice how the Japs got real nice and peaceful after the fat man blew his load all over them.
A0nd now its your turn cunt
I call bullshit on you assertation that most of us would not be here today if it weren't for the atomic bombs. By '45 Japan posed zero threat to the continental us. Maybe they never did.
Just like Iran, right?
Yes. Just like Iran. And yes, just like Iraq.
Get a clue.
Those are the views that I also agree with. However, when it comes to "political decisions" the basic facts are that those are due to civilizations necessarily operating according to the principles and methods of organized crime, inside of which context the pyramidion people at the top of the political pyramid systems were selected to become the most psychopathic people possible, in order to become the kinds of people who can make those kinds of "political decisions."
In my view, there tends to be relatively superficial analysis of the questions regarding whether warfare is justified or necessary. Deeper analysis demonstrates that natural selection pressures were internalized as human intelligence, which was applied to the most important selection pressures between people. Therefore, warfare necessarily developed as the most obvious of the human death control systems, which must necessary exist, due to chronic political problems inherent in the nature of life, driving conflicts, which got resolved through the history of warfare, as being organized crime on larger and larger scales.
The essential problems are that there MUST necessarily be some death control systems, which include the human murder systems as the most extreme forms. Generally speaking, there tends to be a wide-spread deliberate refusal to face those facts. Rather, the death control systems are surrounded by the maximum possible deceitful frames of reference. In part, that is due to the history of successful warfare being based on backing up deceits with destruction, in which context treacherous spies were the most important soldiers. Therefore, the most socially successful murder systems were done through the maximum possible deceits and treacheries. That then enabled those core systems of organized crime to become surrounded by controlled opposition groups, which also stayed within the same basically bullshit frame of reference regarding the death control systems. HENCE, THE GROWING PARADOXES OF THE MOST SOCIALLY SUCCESSFUL MURDER SYSTEMS!
The USA made "political decisions" based on it being a social pyramid system covertly controlled by the most psychopathic groups of people. Of course, the development of weapons of mass destruction has driven all that to become increasingly severe forms of psychotic, criminal insanities since the end of World War II. What exists now is so many orders of magnitude WORSE than what existed before, that it is quite impossible to compare them in any rational ways, other than through extremely abstract numbers, that only make intellectual sense, while not being able to fully be comprehended by human emotions, because progress in physical science has been occurring at an exponential rate, in ways which have left "political decisions" behind, to the degree that every "political decision" being made is more and more the manifestation of runaway psychotic criminal insanities.
The tragic trajectories we are on is for it continue to be politically impossible to develop better death control systems, since the established systems are operated as triumphant organized crime, whose successes include controlling its apparent opposition. Theoretically speaking, it is becoming more and more imperative for a technological civilization to go through profound paradigm shifts regarding its "political decisions." However, the established systems are stuck in their deepening ruts, due to the actual "political decisions" being based upon the history of the most successful of those decisions being expressions of the best organized crime, which includes that the controlled opposition groups also stay within the same deceitful frame of reference regarding death control issues.
Militarism, as the ideology of the murder system, is the supreme ideology, and deserves to be. Progress in physical science continued to make it become more imperative that militarism go through profound paradigm shifts. However, it continues to be politically impossible to do that, so far ... Generally speaking, those who pretend to promote "peace" do so through promoting the same old-fashioned false fundamental dichotomies and related impossible ideals, which was the bullshit that the biggest bullies developed in order to appear to justify what they were doing. Of course, generally speaking, the only publicly significant opposition groups are being controlled by the pyramidion people. Therefore, the bogus "solutions" tend to be promoting that there should not be any death control systems, or none that human beings are aware of operating.
"Political decisions" should be perceived in the context that politics is applied human ecology, inside of which is political economy. Doing that demonstrates how and why the death control systems must necessarily exist, and be the central controls. It is NOT possible for there to be no human murder systems. Instead, those who operated the biggest and best organized murder systems became those who controlled governments. At the same time, they also controlled their apparent opposition, so that all of the publicly significant religions and ideologies are based upon impossible ideals, which do not provide better death control systems, but rather, promote the impossible ideals that there should not be any death controls, which then actually causes the opposite to happen in the real world, which is the continued triumphs of the most psychotic, criminally insane death controls systems, being operated by the most psychopathic people taking the related "political decisions."
GW rocks! Keep on doing what you do, and thanks.
the nips coulda been easily starved into submision. the bombs were meant to intimidate joe stalin. plain and simple.
I would wager that the Dear leaders would have allowed far more civilian casualties through starvation then what were sustained with the dropping of the two bombs.
Had they been staved into submission millions more would have died and it would be but a foot note in history. How many people talk about the Holodmor?
FFS Holodmor is one of the only words over 6 letters I spelt right and it still cums up as a misspelling.
So killing several million nips from a few years of starvation is plain and simple a better strategy? And while waitimg for the starvaion solution to work, the war continues thoughout other parts of Asia. Wonder what those potential starvation victims would have to say about being denied starvation for the Emperor?
I wasn't alive at the time. I do doubt that hitting cities was necessary for a surrender. A demonstration over a Japanese held Air Base or Naval base, hitting mostly their military would do. Hitting cities twice seems to my mind a bit much. But, at the time, feelings were running high, and killing Japs was serious business, very serious. The idea that this was a demonstration to the USSR may hold a grain of truth, perhaps more than a grain. Whatever, doing it twice was just murder. Once I might understand.
Wars are not won through the destruction of military targets alone. They are won by destroying their society's willingness to support their troops. How were we defeated in Vietnam? Afghanistan, Iraq?
OUR PEOPLE REFUSED TO SUPPORT THE MILITARY
Japan worshiped their emperor and would fight to the death in his honor. These were not people who would accept a simple defeat. They were NOT Code Pink.
We Bombed lots and lots of non military targets in WWII, and even still it was no easy win. Americans have a utopian view of war as we have not been victims of its destruction like most other parts of the world have been in living history. Maybe if some of our cities had been leveled by the Japanese rather than an Island a thousand miles from our continent, maybe if we still had ruins of war scattered about our countryside, maybe then it would be a little harder for our domestic traitors to pursue their revisionist agendas.
The bomb was intended as a warning to humanity-
"Don't fuck with the people who choose to operate in secret, and have no remorse over killing you"
The Americans were doing just fine dropping incendenary bombs on every major city in Japan. They were literally exterminating them like diseased rats. You are right they didn't need to use the nukes as they would have all been annihilated anyways in a few more months. But they had to try out their new toy! Assholes!!
This is why war must be averted at all costs. People go mad and kill everything that moves. It's an illness that progresses to an obvious and predictable end.
The war memorial at Hiroshima says nothing about nukes but rightly stresses the horrors of war and why they must be eliminated, before something even worse happens.
How many millions would have died if we spent another three months firebombing Japanese cities, before a land invasion?
The trauma of the bomb made it clear to the Japanese that there would be no negotiations and that they had no hope of a stalemate.
The estimates are that the invasion would have cost 1,000,000 US dead to invade Japan, this based on the casuality rates from Iwo Jima and Siapan. That's more than died in both bombings.
As for war being a sickness that's bull. War is the physical manfestation of political, social and sovriegn will. Every society fights them, indeed every higher primate that lives in a group fights them. That means it is not a sickness, it is something that had clear survival value up until the last century.
#41
Japan miscalculated how racist America is. Which is pretty funny considering how racist THEY are.
USA was happy to pussyfoot with the Nazis; that's why FDR needed Pearl Harbor or something just like it to keep the US isolationist camp from making peace with Hitler.
As for The Bomb, popping the top off of Mt. Fuji would have done just fine. Incinerating moms and kids, well hey, they are still waiting in the next life....
Americans racist compared to the Japanese?
Really??
A two front war waged against two nations, self perceived RACES who each saw themselves as the super race.
And Americans are racists.
The most diverse nation on earth.
I look for intelligence and see NONE
How about you respond to his key point:
popping the top off of Mt. Fuji would have done just fine
WWW III will be won by the side that can produce the best hologram of a skittels shiting, rainbow jumping unicorn.
How about this. Go knock about a hornets nest you find hanging in your attic and then go blow up a wasp nest next to it and see if you scare the hornets away.
People have been lead to believe that they can simply rationalize their opponents issues and come to some agreement. Look at China. Ask them how they feel about Japan. Go to Korea and ask them about how much love they have for Japan. The shit japan did to their neighbors goes well beyond ANYTHING these progressive pukes could hang around our necks.
You're still sidestepping the point.
If the demonstration of a new bomb of previously unknown power was to scare the Japanese into unconditional surrender, why didn't they drop the first one on a sparsely populated area?
Everything I'm hearing of you is a poor "yeah, but they were much worse than we were" justification attempt.
The Japanese were considered intractable foes. We did not have a large arsenal of nukes to be making demonstrations with, but there was no belief that anything short of actual demonstration on a population center would create the PUBLIC outcry for surrender. Look at the battles they fought and the losses they endured, only to fight on. Look at the suicide plane missions that they were basically putting children in to fly to their deaths, and you think we could have scared them into surrender?
What do they tell you about personal weapons...self defense in general? They say DO NOT PULL A GUN UNLESS YOU INTEND TO USE IT. To demonstrate such a bomb passively might well demonstrate its power but in no way demonstrate our will to use it. For the Japanese, they always understood that they were in a battle for their lives. Most had NO intention of EVER surrendering...again...suicide missions...Their perception of honor was wrapped in never surrendering and survival through shear will. It is wishful thinking to believe we could have simply threatened and they would have capitulated. Its not wrong to believe it, as there is no way to prove it. My question remains, what is the point of the argument other than an effort to disparage America...to Americans, but also to the rest of the world at a time we can least afford it....all through supposition.
We got shit tons of stuff to dig through, currently, right now. Lots of dirt, lots of shit. But instead, we want to go back a revive old hatreds and conspiracies that will never be proven or disproven....just rabid believers like Joos, Muslims and Christians. Another set of fires we can keep burning for an eternity.
Oh, and that's also why we needed 2 demonstrations on population centers in 3 days?
Your whitewashing attempts are pathetic.
And afternote to all the "revisionist history" outcriers: So you're seriously saying the publicly sold history version is not completely revisionist already??
Remember: reality is what stays the same when you stop believing in it.
40K KIA is a laughable low number for the invasion of mainland Japan. Naji, do your self a favor and stop listening to the history lessons taught at your daily Berkeley drum circle.
correct. the first division to invade was expected to be decimated.
This is crap.
My family was here at the time and being of Italian heritage they were sent to fight the Japs and not sent to Europe. All the men went!
I heard the stories first hand and know what really happened.
So F U for posting this drivel.
I will never forget the first history course I took out of high school. My professor taught the course as the curriculum dictated but he also added his take on things. After receiving 13 years of sanitized history, it was an eye opener. He believed the bomb was dropped as a warning to Russia. He too, felt it was unnecessary. He laid out a strong case. I never felt the same about America again.
And I am starting to feel the same way now after viewing the idiocy being spewed here, especially when considering why.now.
Destroy from within
Destroy from within
Destroy from within
Yes, I think that was part of the decision making process. And? War w/ the USSR wasn't beyond the scope of possibility the day after V-E Day. The USSR didn't just defeat the invading Germans, it conquered all of eastern europe in the process and created its massive empire of subjugated peoples.
Gotta love the just-barely-implied argument:
40,000 Americanlives was "better" than 200,000 Japanese lives, so why didn't we make that "humane" decision?
Don't understand the fundamentals of war, do you Sparky?
Exactly. Its not about winning. Its about "fairness".
How many Americans died on Japanese soil or sea, and how many died trying to push them off of invaded territory. The Japanese were the aggressors, as were the Germans. We fought these people all over the world, not just in their home countries. They invaded, they attacked, they deserved NO mercy. They could have surrendered at any time, years before they did, and we were supposed to be concerned about what if, maybe they wanted to but were afraid or some other bullshit.
But if you are ever confronted with violence, please do take the pacifist stance and kneel before your assailant. We wouldn't want you to risk hurting anyone in your own defense. Especially if more than one attacks you. It would be so inhumane if you were required to kill three to save your own life. Maybe best if you just shoot yourself now, just to eliminate the chance.
If the Japs were supposedly on the verge of surrendering prior to the first bomb, why didn't they surrender IMMEDIATELY after the first one?
they were fucking fools. some in their military did not want to surrender. they EARNED the right to have a 2nd bomb dropped on the jap bastard heads
they were fucking fools. some in their military did not want to surrender. they EARNED the right to have a 2nd bomb dropped on the jap bastard heads
Because the two bombs were very different and they wanted to test both types.
When you look at what the Japanese did to China, I have no problem with throwing a few fast neutrons at them. Who won the woar you fucking nips!
Who the f*** really knows what happened in WW2, or any bankster war for that matter. Just look at all the shite pinned on Germany that is pure Hollyweird fiction whilst the deliberate starvation of a million German soldiers after the war was over is never mentioned.
For the Japs, there must have been some internal conflict between their royals and the rothschilds.
Yup, musta been some internal conflict between the Emperor and the the Jooos, mystery solved.
Yep. Now you're waking up. Whenever there's an epic problem, a fj is not far away.
A little known fact about that time was that there were plans to actually attack Japan by land. One of the activities completed as part of the build-up to the invasion was to pre-order 500,000 Purple Heart medals. We are still giving out those medals today after 70 years of new wars. I cannot imagine anyone listening to this armchair quarterback about a time and culture so differnt from today's. Dumb article.
FU Tyler for this trash.
http://theantimedia.org/team/Naji/
THIS SYRIAN SHIT-HEAD NEEDS TO BE BEATEN TO A PULP WITH A BROOM HANDLE SOAKED IN AXLE-GREASE FOR 2 MONTHS.
40,000 is a ridiculously low number for a sustained assualt on millions of people. Nevermind the numbered of injured! Nevermind the numbers on BOTH sides. This is really a crappy piece.
Iraq had as many people and there were plenty of weapons for the taking. Lost a lot fewer than 40k people. Not saying you're wrong, but get son perspective.
back then, they were called japs. the japanese attrocities towards prisoners and civilians are legendary.
THEY EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE NUKED
THEY COULD HAVE SURRENDERED AFTER THE FIRST BOMB BUT CHOSE NOT TO
READ ABOUT THE RAPE OF NANKING
THE BATAAN DEATH MARCH
THEY WERE FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT AND GOT WHAT THEY SO RICHLY DESERVED.
This article is total PC bullshit.
The author is a pussy.
This article is total PC bullshit.
The author is a pussy.
Truman was a pussy.
We should have nuked Russia, China, and anybody else that wouldn't surrender to the New American Order.
And it would be a last day for muritards like you. Peoole like you should not breed though.yiu are an idiot scum like oldwood sook.
I don't buy the premise. And Japanese should have thought about that before they bombed Pearl harbor and raped Nanking anyway.
Nuking them probably saved millions of lives because they already declared they'd fight to the last man, woman, and child on the mainland. Women and children were throwing themselves off the cliffs in Okinawa rather than surrender when cornered so there was no reason whatsoever to doubt their resolve.
I started coming to ZH to get away from the progressive claptrap, newspeak, and history revision of the main stream media. My grandfather spent 2 years in the pacific fighting the Japanese with the 3rd Marines. This kind of "post anti war" sentiment is garbage. We need to Stop the fabians from trying to rewrite the history of our once great nation, when men were men and stayed that way.
u don't have the understanding yet.
My gosh you're stupid.
Webster Tarpley presents: Pearl Harbor revisited
The US War Machine demonized the Japanese as barbaric nonhuman aka the Japs. When you drop nuclear bombs on a different species, of course it's no brainer, just like you can kill a cow in whatever way you fancy without any moral and legal consequences.
The Japanese version of the WW2 indicated that the Japanese government contacted Washington for unconditional surrender to the Allied forces as early as November, 1944. The US archives that became available to public a few years ago also confirm that Washington refused to accept their unconventional surrender request again and again until Washington got its two bombs ready.
Dropping those two nuclear bombs were completely unnecessary to end the war in retrospect, and it had everything to do with getting tbe Cold War started si that vassals could be kept in line for benefit of the American Empire.
Supplying the Soviets with A bomb design details was essential for starting the Cold War. That was blamed on the Soviet spies, of course.
History is a unforgiving bitch. Truth is singular. All its versions are fake.
We should have prosecuted WWII in a much more humane way, with sensitivity sessions before every battle. There was no reason to demonize the enemy prior to sending young boys into machine gun nests requiring them to crawl over the dismembered bodies of their buddies just to reach some minimal safety. Absolutely, we were wrong to call these people derogatory names simply to incite bravery in our soon to be dead soldiers.
Look at our returning soldiers today. Listen to what they had to deal with. And then resign yourself to the fact that if we are ever attacked by another nation, there will be NO ONE there to save you. Just scream "hands up, don't shoot". I hope it works for you.
War has been the history of humanity. Pacifism is surrender and death, as it always has been. What is important is to know what it is you are fighting for, which is exactly what this article is designed to dissuade you from doing. War is evil, war is wrong, surrender now before you do anything else wrong.
"You see the paradox: the West which claims to be free and open and democratic had hardly any access to, and it was not influenced by, the propaganda that was created in the old Soviet Union or now in China. And not only propaganda: most Western European and U.S. citizens are not influenced by the way Soviets or Chinese see the world. They don’t know much about it. Their world is mono-polar. They don’t compare different ideas, ideals, and ideologies. They only have one ideology; which can be called “market-fundamentalism,” and is served by multi-party Parliamentary systems or by the constitutional monarchies. But the former Soviets and the Chinese were, and are, well informed about capitalism, about Western views on Communism. So who is more open and who is better informed? Look at Chinese bookstores: plenty of capitalist literature. Look at U.S. or European bookstores: hardly any Communist Chinese literature."
— Noam Chomsky, On Western Terrorism from Hiroshima to Drone Warfare, 2013
And after decades of socialization of America, the welfare state, the "progressive"income tax, the massive liberalization of our educational system, you really think they are trying to suppress socialism in America? If there is any artificial shortage of Marxist literature, my assumption is that it is for the express purpose of keeping Americans in the dark about how they are being manipulated into becoming Marxists. It is well embraced in schools, but in the general public there is a resistance to the idea. So lets just keep slipping it into every agency and program and institution of America while continuing to call it free market capitalism. It works perfectly for effect for as the economy weakens and gets sicker and sicker, we are told it is capitalism that fails us, while completely ignoring the Marxist virus that has been injected into our veins. Russia and China know all about Marxism. They have been choking on it for decades, only recently seeing any real hope or opportunity...of course all due to the injection of capitalism in their veins. They know the devil when they see it.
Chomsky is a zionist
Maybe after you hear him say 100 times that the Palestinian genocide conducted by Netenyahu was the fault of the American president at the time, you'll understand. Otherwise fuck off. Just another denizen of the zionist master race base camp in the Poconos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQclvwOepw8
Basically propaganda.
There may have been people in the Japanese government trying to reach a peace agreement with the US but those people did not control the military which was actually in power.
The Japanese military was certainly not willing to surrender.
Go read your WWII history. Iwo Jima. Okinawa (read about the battle of Sugar Loaf Hill). Battles like Tarawa, Peleliu, etc. and the absolute barbarity and ferocity of the zealot Japanese soldiers. And then think twice before posting this drivel.
First time a state used a nuke against ANOTHER state - but not THE SAME STATE as in 9/11 where a low level nuke was used by a state against its OWN population!
Putin's reference to Satanism was a pointed rebuke to the New World Order elites, who – though they push militant secularism on the societies they are trying to undermine – are closet Satanists.
the soviets had amassed a million plus troops on the manchurian border waiting for the opportune tyme invading japan. Truman was well aware that the jap's would never surrender. the emperor was 'GOD' incarnate and refused to capitulate. japanese's armies were still one million strong throughout the adjoining islands even after their navy was defeated. they would go down fighting.
stalin was salivating at the chance to take revenge for russia's humilliating defeat in 1904-05 -- russo-jap war, which started the nascent Bolshevikr evolution?!?
the japs were about two weeks away from becoming a territory of the communist russians. and yet the emperor still twaddled! Truman tried his best to warn the jap's of the new bomb's devastation but fell upon deaf ears.
america had no choice but to drop the a-bombs on a less populated area[s] that were mostly munition factories. no one realized that the destruction from usa bombing with five hundred - thousand pound incendiary exposives had previously raised berlin as it had all of japan to the ground!
it was either moar usa lives or drop the a-bombs and keep the commi's out of japan, knowing they would surrender shortly after the reality of seeing what theywere up againsta nd not knowingjustho w many moar a-bombs were set aside for the palace. this was a no brainer... the decision came two days later to surrender unconditionally.
not true, 1 million soviets ran the japs out of china, but did not stay there... japan was by sea and was not accessable by soviets in large numbers
geography's a bitch? manchuria and lower/upper mongolia via kuril Island landbridge! littoral[ly]? speaking,...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kuril_Islands_dispute
and this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_Neutrality_Pact
please note that japan is a very large country as an oversized island/ archipelago.
note:2 japanese people were ordered/ mandated to fight to the death or commit mass suicide. most if not all were even aware of the a-bombs being dropped in the country. naga/hiro were off the beaten track making ammunitions and armaments in large manufaturing plants. this too was why they were chosen with less than a civilian pop.
It actually saved many Japanese lives although that was not the intent. Read about the firebombing of Tokyo; close to 100,000 died and they didn't flinch. A lot more of that would have happened. As well as many deaths in any ground invasions. Anywhere for 30,000 to 100,000 civilians died in the Okinawa invasion. Added to that was another 70,000 military casaulties. That is Okinawa alone. How many would have died in the "Battle of Tokyo"?
The truth everyone ignores is that those bombs saved tens of thousands of American lives and perhaps more than a million Japanese lives.
Perhaps we should have asked the Japanese or their offspring to have sent a nice "thank you" note to Truman.
The Japanese would not have stopped without those bombs.
I didn't bother to read the article, but the anniversary of the bombing has context to today... as the evil want to reduce populations through war... Also soviets sent 1 million to free China, but you didn't hear about that...
in today's context....
Zionists....
Putin's reference to Satanism was a pointed rebuke to the New World Order elites, who – though they push militant secularism on the societies they are trying to undermine – are closet Satanists.
It actually saved many Japanese lives although that was not the intent. Read about the firebombing of Tokyo; close to 100,000 died and they didn't flinch. A lot more of that would have happened. As well as many deaths in any ground invasions. Anywhere for 30,000 to 100,000 civilians died in the Okinawa invasion. Added to that was another 70,000 military casaulties. That is Okinawa alone. How many would have died in the "Battle of Tokyo"?
The truth everyone ignores is that those bombs saved tens of thousands of American lives and perhaps more than a million Japanese lives.
Perhaps we should have asked the Japanese or their offspring to have sent a nice "thank you" note to Truman.
The Japanese would not have stopped without those bombs.
bullshit
Great argument. Really well sourced.
Learn what Operation Downfall was, kiddo.
How many Russian/German casualties just to take Berlin? More than 1 million.
Battle of Okinawa - Aftermath:
One of the longest and costliest battles of the Pacific Theater, Okinawa saw American forces sustain 49,151 casualties (12,520 killed), while the Japanese incurred 117,472 (110,071 killed). In addition, 142,058 civilians became casualties. Though effectively reduced to a wasteland, Okinawa quickly became a key military asset for the Allies as it provided a key fleet anchorage and troop staging areas. In addition, it gave the Allies airfields that were only 350 miles from Japan.
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/p/battle-of-okinawa.htm
That's a lie. The Japanese were simply on a three day cruise and had stopped for a barbeque picnic and were sneak attacked while cooking.
They was framed!
No, it's just Zionist lies and GeoWash has undercovered another JooooPlot.
BS
Japs lost china... there was no need to roast women and children there...
Yeah, let's leave it to the PRC to roast those Nips 70 years later. And the Chinese are a nation of racial superiority war mongers themselves. The public displays of hatred for the Japanese is turned on and off like a light switch. We'll learn just how much too soon enough.
What is this mentally defective bullshit doing here?
It was either nukes or Operation Downfall. The latter would have meant the starvation of 20 million Japanese, death of 10 million Japanese troops, and death of 1-2 million US troops. Two nukes is NOTHING in comparison to that.
I come here for economics, not some leftist retard's delusions about the past.
Welcome:
Obviously no one can truly qualify as an idiot unless they have been posting here for at least six months!
I got three gold stars!
What's your point supposed to be?
Howard Zinn revisionism. These socialists must be made to pay. Just review the causilties suffering in the island hopping campaign and magnify the costs for conquering the main islands. Causalities suffering taking Okinawa:
Summary: The battle of Okinawa, also known as Operation Iceberg, took place in April-June 1945. It was the largest amphibious landing in the Pacific theater of World War II. It also resulted in the largest casualties with over 100,000 Japanese casualties and 50,000 casualties for the Allies. This article gives an account of the 80 day plus battle for the Island of Okinawa which some have described as the "typhoon of steel".
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-okinawa-operation-iceberg.htm
It's easy to tell if someone has been drinking to Kool Aid on this subject.
If he or she has bought into the big lie about Fat Man and Little Boy "saving" a million American and Japanese lives that would have been lost in an invasion of mainland Japan, they've definitely been drinking the Kool Aid because an invasion of mainland Japan was quite unnecessary.
Japan was already utterly destroyed, disabled, and surrounded before the bombs were dropped. Truman wanted unconditional surrender (regardless of the cost) in order to acquire permanent military bases and he wanted the mushroom clouds to sabre rattle the Soviets.
I'll take another frosty mug please.
Obviously you have no family or friends associated with the above referenced campaign.
But please do continue educating yourself. I just might suggest you check some other sources. A liberal education is a diverse one, not reliant upon a single perspective.
Morning after quarterbacking is an excellent past time however.
What if???
The U.S. declared economic war on Japan (which was an uppity U.S. colony and still is) long before it became a hot war.
I don't have any family or friends associated the the WAR ON TERROR and I didn't have any family or friends die in 9/11, but if I did I'd still call the WAR ON TERROR what it is... complete bullshit.
Japan's navy was at the bottom of the ocean, their petroleum supply was cut off, and Japan posed no threat to any nation at the time the bombs were dropped, unless you count women and children armed with sticks and stones.
And exactly why were we sanctioning them? Could it be their invasion of China and Indochina, and all the rest? Could it be because they were not only invading but murdering by the thousands? None of our business, right?
But I bet you have a real hardon for the injustices the Palestinians endure, right???
Surrender plans had been in the works for months... US wanted to test the bomb,,, used it on the the two main CHRISTIAN cities in Japan... killing women and children...
Someday US will reap what it sows with nukes while they are run by zionists.
Even today.. the President and Sec of State of the US of A cannot even do a deal without being trumped by Israeli spies in the house and senate... now these Israhell shills will do a play to get US into a war with Iran that will draw in Russia...
US is up the creek without a paddle.
Hitler was right.
http://bwcentral.org/2015/08/russia-and-china-lobby-democrats-to-support...
Russians/Chinese/EU drooling over the money they can make w/ sanctions removed. I always been told by shithooks like you that Merkians and da Jooos only care about money. Rank agiprop you stinking KremlinHasbratrina.
so are Iran sanctions about nukes, or so that Iran can't do business? which is it?
Thank you sir!
May I have another?
To the author of this article. You jerk. You weren't there. Not even going to read this crap. Tyler, this type of article has no place on this website.
Welcome!
George, maybe you should petition Tyler to close membership access. We don't want all these newbie naysayers in the mix. Just when we were about to reach CONSENSUS.
Humans are destroying the planetary atmosphere...science by consensus is so, well, Orwellian.
George, the conscience of the collective
Except when they astroturf they're just there for practice.
Surprising that commentors here don't realize that zionists ran the US during WW2... and started war in Europe.... Hitler never attacked Poland until Poland killed 60,000 germans living there... and what about that deal and Britan had with Poland???? France and Britan declared war on Germany... not the other way around... And where were the fucking french and british to free Poland from the Soviets...
And who financed Hitler, Grampa Bush and the Warburgs, who financed Papa Lenin... NY zionists..
you need a lesson in history... US has been a puppent of zionists even before 1913
Putin is the only one who has it right. Talmud is Satanism... US has removed Christ.
Putin's reference to Satanism was a pointed rebuke to the New World Order elites, who – though they push militant secularism on the societies they are trying to undermine – are closet Satanists.
And there it is....
fucking joos dropped the bombs on Japan. Fucking knew it!
Never spoil a good story with the facts!
It just feels like those people who believe everything is being controlled by Aliens living amongst us. Our technology, everything provided by them...for control...because they actually eat us, we are their cattle. We know we are too dumb to invent this shit. Too stupid to care for ourselves. Why we are just dumb sheep, so there's got to be a conspiracy of The Big Brain somewhere guiding all this shit. There is just no way the Japs could have pulled off Pearl by themselves. There just no way we are smart enough to put a man on the moon. There is just no way we could be smart enough to borrow trillions of dollars we could never pay back...we were tricked! It's just too much. Its just got to be those damned Zio Space Aliens...it has to be!
I would ask if you ever listen to yourselves but I know better because I see you all stroking each other here every day.
Mental circle jerk?
'We have become a destroyer of worlds' Robert Oppenheimer
This is what happens when psychopaths lead dimwits down the primrose path.
I suppose a lot of people here want to kill the Iran deal... believing that you should 'nuke' Iran... or go to war with Iran.... all duped by the zionists... hell, even your government can't even make a deal on Iran without your zionist spies to overturn it...
Get your goy kids ready for another war for Israel... all while they sit back and drink beer, laugh at dumb Americans dying for their strategic goals. What fking fools Americans are to allow this..
Don't speak for me buster, I love and eagerly await the 'Hidden Imam's" return to fulfill prophesy (Shiite) and the end of the world in this life. Former Iranian President Immadinnerjacket told me so, and he served only at the pleasure of the Supreme Ayatollah. Just like the current one who serves the Ayatollah Kumfrommany. ;0
Ah, I see you have mastered the Obama strawman style of "argument".
Nuking Iran or otherwise going to war with Iran were not the only options. Simply continuing the existing sanctions and not freeing previously confiscated Iran funds was certainly an option and surely the easiest of all.
But that option would not have met the multiple conditions of allowing Obama to claim a "historic deal" while also strengthening an enemy of the US and weakening the US.
Spoken like a true circle jerk right wing extremist nutjob.
I call BS. They didn't surrender until 9 days after the second bomb and floated armed balloons over the US to kill innocents! Damn right the bomb was necessary to save American lives. "The pilot of Enola Gay flying out of the shockwave on an August day."
shhhh!
we are just working up another good foaming at the mouth joo hate festival here!
Joooooooos, are baaaddd, okaaay?
I have read several low quality things on zerohedge of late...generally it has some interesting stuff. I logged in specifically to say this is the dumbest article I have read on the Internet in a long time.
An exhausted country fighting a suicidal and fanatical enemy? This is a question for the over fed children of this pampered and embarrassing age to navel gaze about. Zerohedge should get some standards back.
I have read several low quality things on zerohedge of late...generally it has some interesting stuff. I logged in specifically to say this is the dumbest article I have read on the Internet in a long time.
An exhausted country fighting a suicidal and fanatical enemy? This is a question for the over fed children of this pampered and embarrassing age to navel gaze about. Zerohedge should get some standards back.
Hard to believe that people will say the bombings of civilian cities in Japan were 'justified'
Do you think they could have targeted military sites???
How about the bombing of civilians in Germany? Wiping cities right off the map... I suppose that was good too. Shake your heads...
I have to admit, it is a discussion worth having, but as you know war has become ever more death producing with technology. and you also know that civilians were the targets all along by the Germans in both 20th Century world wars, the Soviets murdered millions, as did the Maoist Chinese and several other instances. Those were also claimed to be 'wars of liberation' by Lenin and Mao...except it was on their own peoples.
What we should have done was droned military leaders and then slipped in and built some nice schools and shit so they would love us again.
FDR High
Instead we bombed them into submission and then gave them Demming and rebuilt their infrastructure, making them an economic superpower in another thirty years.
I think Hillary said it best when she recently asserted that the 'Islamists are an underserved population and education and jobs would be the tonix for a restless youthful population.' Fucking insane social welfare theory, a failure here and insanity beyond belief abroad.
Aren't you making an (purposeful) assumption that war making facilities were built and located away from civilian populations? Nothing could be further from the situation at the time. Besides, civilian populations are legitimate targets, i.e. Germany and Japan, as their populations supported their gov'ts actions wholeheartedly in spirit and employment within activities supporting the State. Lincoln and the US Gov't apparently understood how critical civilian support is for war making and resistance.
I heard this topic being debated on the radio the other day and thought to myself, "Why debate this now"? Is some level of culpability trying to be placed on my children or me for that matter? i.e. Am I going to be asked to pay reparations? It is interesting to note that my Japanese friends who live in Merica have never brought up the subject with me. That does not mean they don't care but it sure does not seem to be at the top of list of things to discuss.
When I was young(80's) I used to hang around with a lot of older men who served in WWII and many of them served in the Pacific theater. I can tell you this, there was a lot of animosity toward the Japanese. The discussions, or rants if you will, usually started with imported products that were made in Japan which were becoming common at the time. Even though it had been several decades the animosity was still fervent in them towards the Japanese. If I repeated some of the things they said I would be banned from ZeroHedge. Here is one though, "We were stacking their bodies like cordwood because the little nip fuckers wouldn't give up." I found it interesting that the guys who served in Europe never talked about the war very often.
I pondered the radio debate and came to the conclusion that I can not judge the bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki to be right or wrong because I was not yet alive or there in the Pacific theater. We don't know what it was actually like because we were not there but it sounded pretty shitty. I think war is a racket no doubt. The use of atomic weapons does seem to be excessive on the surface but after slogging through island jungles and watching your buddies get shot and blown to pieces you might find yourself thinking from a different perspective.
What is done is done and there is no undoing the decisions of that time. It can be debated but the debate is null and void because most of us were not there because we didn't exist yet.
For what it is worth, WWII is not over. Russia and Japan never signed a treaty. Funny how at Mrs. M's birthday a Japanese brought my Russian woman a present. They don't give a fuck about some fucking treaty.
Sowing discord and hate is what fucking pricks do and we are not buying that shit anymore. If the pricks can't do that on immediate economic terms then dredge up the past and try to stir nationalist emotions.
And if anyone wants to dredge up the past then I question Sherman's March.
There is no room for balance or rationality here.
America is an evil puppet of Zio-nazis and that is all there is to it. Just ask any of the regular joo haters here!
If we ain't blaming, demonizing and planning to kill each other...THEY aren't doing their job properly.
Oldwood, I caught your sarc so +1. I call it as I see it. That was then but this is now. I love observing the people around me to see how they act. I see a lot of people acting like assholes towards each other out of frustration and the human need to assign blame so that they can feel a little better about themselves for a few minutes.