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Tesla Loses More Than $4,000 On Every Car Sold
Last week, following the latest abysmal (if only in GAAP terms) quarter for Tesla, we showed what we thought was without a doubt the most important chart for the company that has taken "story" to the next level: its cash flow, or lack thereof, and the stunning observation that in just the first six months of 2015, Tesla burned $1.1 billion in cash. Its current cash levels? Just $1.2 billion more.
The problem, judging by the collapse in its stock price after its Q2 earnings, others are starting to notice too, such as Reuters. And now that the growth "story" has taken a back seat following the latest guidance cut in deliveries, fears that the company will have to dilute shareholders to keep the "story" afloat, are rapidly emerging. Case in point, Reuters calculation of a fact that was known to most observers but certainly not to retail enthusiasts who "bought the stock just because others bought the stock", i.e., that Tesla loses about $4000 on ever car it makes.
The Silicon Valley automaker is losing more than $4,000 on every Model S electric sedan it sells, using its reckoning of operating losses, and it burned $359 million in cash last quarter in a bull market for luxury vehicles. The company on Wednesday cut its production targets for this year and next. Chief Executive Elon Musk said he's considering options to raise more capital, and didn't rule out selling more stock.
Musk has taken investors on a thrill ride since taking Tesla public in 2010. Now he's given himself a deadline, promising that by the first quarter of 2016 Tesla will be making enough money to fund a jump from making one expensive, low volume car to mass producing multiple models, and expanding a venture to manufacture electric power storage systems.
Now that might be tricky, because unless like AMZN, Tesla has a seriously underestimated source of profitability (we have yet to hear of the Tesla Cloud), the company has just pigeonholed itself and is willing to trade off its growth "story" for cash burn. Which with nearly virtual certainty, results in about a 30-50% cut to forward multiples.
Another glass of cold water for TSLA fanboys are comparisons to GM, whose market cap of $50 billion was recently seen as within reach of Tesla. There are, however, some notable differences:
GM sells more than 9 million vehicles a year, while Tesla plans to build between 50,000 and 55,000 cars this year. Tesla, most of whose cars are built to order directly, delivered 11,532 cars in the second period and said it had an operating loss of about $47 million, for an operating loss per car of about $4,000. Tesla's narrower margin for error is just one more way in which it is different from its century old rivals.
So if the car, pardon, battery, pardon hyperloop market can't "grow" into every possible direction its visionary founder wants it to, on the back of unprecednted cash burn, just how will TSLA grow, or rather shrink, into its balance sheet?
The company said it plans $1.5 billion in capital spending this year, mainly to launch its Model X, battery powered sport utility vehicle with eye-catching, vertical-opening "falcon wing" doors. Tesla reported $831 million in capital spending during the first half of the year, indicating it will spend roughly another $700 million.
During the second quarter, Tesla said operating costs and research and development spending rose, while average selling prices for the Model S lineup, which starts at $70,000 before federal and state electric vehicle tax breaks, fell 1 percent as the mix of sales shifted to less expensive models and a strong dollar hit revenue generated overseas. The Model S comes in several different versions, ranging in price up to $106,000 or more, depending on options.
Elon Musk's - and TSLA shareholders' - hope is that Tesla capital spending will plunge next year because the company won't be spending on a major vehicle launch. In 2017, Tesla plans to launch its Model 3 line, which the company says will start at about $35,000 and push total sales toward the goal of 500,000 vehicles a year by 2020.
However, Barclays analyst Brian Johnson disagreed with the company's estimates, and said he expects Tesla's capital spending will go up in 2016 and 2017 as the company ramps up its battery factory and Model 3 development. "Their small scale means the cash generation is not as great as they might have hoped for," he said.
Worse, as noted top, at the current cash burn rate, TSLA can only fund just two more quarters of cash burn at which point, and most likley well before it, the company will have to aggressively raise new capital.
Sure enough, Musk said this week Tesla expects to have $1 billion in cash over the next year, and told analysts "there may be some value" in raising capital "as a risk reduction measure."
Some more troubling comparisons: Tesla's stock is still about 70 percent higher than it was two years ago, and 8 percent ahead of its level on Jan 1. With a market capitalization of $31 billion, Tesla is worth more than Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV, the much larger maker of Ram pickups and Jeep Grand Cherokees.
"A capital raise, given the way they're burning cash today, given the fact that they have future investment needs, seems very likely at some point," said UBS Securities analyst Colin Langan, who has a sell rating on the stock.
Reuters reminds us that Musk has steered Tesla out of tight corners before. In September 2012, the company faced a cash crunch, but raised money by selling shares and renegotiating the terms of a federal loan. The Model S started production in mid-2012. One
Oh and let's not forget the infamous February 2014 "incident", when Morgan Stanley underwrote a massive $1.6 billion convertible for TSLA the day after it more than doubled its TSLA stock price target: a move which would be grounds for a criminal probe in any country not controlled by Wall Street.
Which brings us back to our favorite topic about TSLA: GAAP vs non-GAAP, and a divergence that should inspire at least one FASB probe into the farce that Tesla's financials have become. Presenting exhibits A and B:
EPS:
... and Revenue (yes, non-GAAP revenue, which is now flat since December 31, 2014):
Finally the mainstream media has finally figured this out too:
Tesla reports its finances in a different way from the Detroit automakers. Using the generally accepted accounting principles, or GAAP, used by GM or Ford, Tesla's operating losses per vehicle have steadily widened to $14,758 from $3,794 in the second quarter of 2014.
But Tesla points out in its statements to investors that its GAAP accounting excludes certain revenue and profits from Model S sedans that customers lease. In the second quarter, the deferred gross profits from Model S leases amounted to $61.9 million, Tesla said. Analysts say they add back the deferred revenue to make Tesla's figures more comparable to the reporting used by other automakers.
If more start pointing out that the car-making emperor's clothes are made out of non-GAAP thread, as we have since 2012, things Musk will go sour very quickly. In fact, we will conclude with Reuters' own assessment of the situation in gratitude that at least one media outlet finally admitted what we have been saying since 2013: "It's crunch time for Tesla Motors."
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They make it up on volume. Why lose a little when you can lose a lot? Any punter can lose $4,000, but $40,000,000 is another level entirely of absurd.
I'd bet its much moar.The warranty provisions are totally inadequate for that type of product.
Easy to hide that kind of problem for quite a while.Did it myself once, the only person fooled long
term, was myself.
As soon as I heard that Musk was betting the company on battery technology, I knew he was fucked. Battery tech has hardly budged in 100 years, and Musk has exactly one year to pull some kind of revolutionary advance out of his ass, where countless others have failed over and over again. It's a thousand to one shot. TSLA is the short of the millenium.
Hasn't been for lack on manpower or money thrown at it either.
I still have top level personal contacts in the battery industry, from my own failed
attempt,Nothing has changed, more tweaks that slightly improve performance,but no
brekthroughs om battery deaths from deep discharge cycling.Musk has been lucky sofar,
with a trophy product,not being used in a mainstream way.Even in that niche he is losing money.
But ... "Beat analysts' expectations of a loss of $10,000 per vehicle."
Bullish!
They should come free with every EBT.
Tesla should name some of their vehicles "The Flame" or "The Inferno" or "The Blaze".
The only reason Tesla got funding was so wealthy Hollywood and Santa Barbarian types could brag about having shares in a high tech electric car company.
Yep, and apparently there isn't as many hipster progressive greenie's as they thought, but not to worry, Obutthole is standing behind them... with a jar of Vaseline......
Child's play. GM was losing over $40k on each Volt
Not everybody can be Government Motors.....
4000 bucks can't be the "insane mode" right?
Wake me up when they start to use the "INSANE mode" I guess that will help them crash and burn @200mph.
The car manufacture will start to compete who can go from 100 Billion dollar market cap to negative 100 billion in 6 months.
Still a self-igniting barbeque grill. For an increasing number of buyers (vehicle AND stock).
Headline is not accurate. Tesla's 2Q operating loss stems from readying the production line for the Model X, not to mention building the largest battery factory in the world. If they only cared about preserving EPS and remaining a boutique EV manufacturer, they could be cash flow positive on the Model S. But that's not the plan. The plan is rapid expansion and leveraging all resources to get to the Model 3. This has been broadcast for years, so you can pretend it's some shock that they are losing money if you want, I just don't k ow why anyone thinks that's news.
I'm sure he capitalized those costs(and probably more) to the balance sheet,
so those had no affect on his p&l, while it would show on his cashflow..
Musk is a financial engineer first.
stealth bailouts have been verbally approved by both parties prior to building the battery factory
Gross profit on the Model S was about $60 million in 2Q. Point being that doesn't hold a candle to the type of capital expenditures occurring on a $5 billion battery factory, so it's pretty silly to argue the nuance without acknowledging the long term plan.
You can't compare the economics of a luxury product to the economics of a mass-market product--especially when you are talking about high-capital-cost consumer goods. GM's troubles began when they started building economy cars in the early 70s and found to their horror that the profit margins were razor-thin. It undermined their cost structure which was built on a foundation of higher-margin products.
Tesla is fucked eight ways to Sunday.
Thought TSLA was a short when OIL broke below $100. But lack of competition in the gasoline business, both refining and retail, has kept the price at the pump much higher than it should be at the current price per barrel. Still, the trend is clear. (and I actually have an electric car in my driveway.)
I wish I lived on a golf course ....
ENRON
It is not capitalism to claim a profit when a business would not exist without subsidies. Tesla's raising the commons cost of living by getting free money for the global warming ponzi.
The sun sun's recent solar minimum phase, not CO2, caused the last decade's heat spell, and Al Gore, whose daughter married in to the Schiff family, founders of the FED and eager to be paid a tax by the commons for so 'carbon foot' prints, was handed her hat, and divorced out of the racketeering Schiff empire, when Pa Pa couldn't close called the deal for his attempted extortion with his lambasted claim, "it's science", scare tactic pitch.
Honestly hate to pop anyone's Tesla bubble and the happy happy joy joys about Tesla's profitability print, but the operation would have shut down if it weren't for the ass kicking taxpayers are getting by the flesh hammer being stuck to `em where the sun don't shine. And the scam isn't limited to Tesla's auto's, the scam is fattening Tesla's subsidized books at all of all of Tesla's manufacturing units. Some of those cars get a 20K per unit (and it used to be more) subsidy from the commons. IRS outflow's to Tesla have breached 4.9 Billion.
Tesla is even getting fat abatements for a battery plant in Nevada (like does anyone really believe driving a Tesla will cool down Las Vegas in the summer. I know .. i know .. 'it's a dry heat'.
In 2014, Nevada lavished the company with one of the biggest corporate-welfare packages in history: In exchange for building a battery-manufacturing facility near Reno, Tesla will pay no payroll or property taxes for ten years and no sales taxes for 20 years, and will receive $195 million in cash via “transferable tax credits,” which can be sold to other companies to satisfy their Nevada tax bills. All of this amounts to a $1.3 billion giveaway.
If one is playing Tesla equities, one should consider an exit strategy. The way shit is going, there ain't gonna be enough disposable IRS or state tax revenues to pay the Obama's favorite sissy's charity scam anymore.
Tesla exists because of gov subsidies...thats the entire business model...its based on "free" charging stations, which arent free to the taxpayer. Sooo, the next plan needs to be PAYING tesla owners to charge their cars!!! That will boost sales and also boost Uber as their drivers all switch to teslas
The tweaks have made Tesla's batteries the best in the business, not a quantum jump but still the best. The company will live or die on whether they can take a dominant position in buffering the grid. There won't be many new power plants and more importantly no more new transmission lines so buffering peak energy use with battaries charged during off-peak production has a huge market value. Can they do it and is it enough to justify their hyped up prices? Beyond my pay grade to tell.
You're assuming.
TESLA's batteries have'nt been put to the test yet.Pootling around in twenty mile trophy trips,
isn't putting any stress on them.Heavy, consistent use is a whole other ball game when you talk
batteries.Apples vs. oranges.
There's a guy in the DC area with ~140k miles on his 2012, still holds a 95% charge. Anecdotal, but is what it is.
Its not the total, its how you get to it.
Every time you go into deep discharge, you lose a % of available charge on a battery that never returns.
Its called battery 'memory', nobody even knows the cause, buts its very observable.
Never go into deep discharge and a battery can go on for many decades before requiring
replacement.Deep discharge it on a daily or weekly basis, and you're battery will die in 1 to 2 years.
You can't go into deep discharge on a Model S, it has a built in buffer.
Next silly argument?
Thats a kill switch. Hope you enjoy your ride with no unplanned side trips.
You may get away with that in a trophy product, but your market is self limiting.
Musk is planning on using those batteries where he can't employ that trick.
Which means he doesn't understand his own product, a sure path to ruin.
"Built in buffer?".
Does it have lots of ram and a big hdd as well.
The only thing that can protect s battery from over discharge is a LVD....but once the load is disconnected it ain't gonna move much.
Squid
Anecdotal indeed. "Your mileage may vary" is the understatement of the year when it comes to batteries. Sure hope you don't get the one that gets bricked because of one too many deep discharges.
Calling Tesla's batteries "the best in the business" is like going to a third-rate cathouse and calling the least clap-ridden whore the "best in the building".
When it comes to energy storage, nothing beats a 20-gallon gas tank. Fifteen dollars worth of stamped steel and lasts forever.
Making a battery that can compete with that is an almost completely hopeless challenge.
But but but...
GIANT RUBBER BANDS DAMN IT!!
Sure the tank lasts forever, but the engine it's attached to doesn't. And it takes a lot more maintenance to keep it running that a brushless AC motor, by orders of magnitude.
Oh, and it still needs a battery to start!
Thats it. I am never cutting grass again!
Uh, ever heard of crank, or push starts?
Yeah, but when it comes to a ride, nothing beats an Electric....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaLgF1uLB8
Hi Fred,
Actually, a quantum jump is the smallest available movement, so I think that the increments are as close to a quantum jump as we can get.
And don't get me started on "steep learning curve." ;-)
- Ned
My understanding is that Musk is still using a huge string of 18650's (roughly equivaent to a AA alkaline), maybe 10,000 of them, as his power pack. Jesus. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Although rumor has it he has added several thousand re-twistable natural latex rubber bands, re-used from the post office, as an eco-friendly backup power source.
Does anyone know if they broke ground on the factory? Is Nevada largely paying for it?
TSLA is a fan boy product bought by the same smug types who are Apple fanboys. If they get the SUV or 3 series launched then the current owners might by one of those too.
Anyone know if their car factory is UAW? Maybe they can move it to SC or AL to slow the cash burn.
Yes, the Tesla Battery pack is an enormous matrix of 186550's. It has worked better then i ever thought.
Thanks for that.
Trouble is, each cell must have its own circuitry attached to avoid over-discharge or -charge. If the circuitry on just one cell of the thousands in the pack fails, you get an inferno. Right under your ass.
The odds do not look favorable to this poor bastard. The QC costs must be enormous.
In my case I was a grad student under a world-class professor in renewables for 6 years; he was one of the fathers of biodegradable plastics. However, he very often made the point from his experience in biodegradables that unless the new invention has superior economic viability, it will not significantly displace anything.
For example, while I was in grad school I knew a guy who invented a catalyst that would split water to hydrogen and oxygen on exposure to sunlight. You could potentially get all your fuel from lake farms this way. However, the one tiny issue was that the stuff cost $50,000 an ounce to make (materials, not labor), and would burn out after a few months.
I see Tesla, and solar panels for that matter, the same way. Yeah, it's cheap *enough* that a subset of people can buy a trophy and get some benefit out of it. But not enough to realistically impact anything long term. I am optimistic that some some new amazing battery or supercapacitor will turn up one day, but it hasn't happened yet, and no government subsidy will be able to legislate it into existance.
well the cost of Solar PV generated Electricity is way below the cost of anything except coal and
it's chasing coal down
Whatever the outcome, Musk will still be hailed as a "visionary" and "corporate leader" which means he'll still get to keep most of his chips and find funding for some new hair-brained scheme to IPO.
Here's a change in the battery:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2015/06/22/24m-a-lithium-ion-b...
Li technology will consistently improve. The primary problems are stability and efficiency of the electrolyte, as it were.
I think he has the opposite problem. Battery technology is fast moving, and with the Gigafactory he's now married to a tech that may be obsolete in 5 years.
What a load of crap. The US taxpayer loses $4,000 on every Tesla because of the subsidies it receives. Tesla would be out of business if it had to stand on its own two feet.
Yep. Musk gets sweetheart deals from the government/tribe. His connections can keep him going indefinitely.
Oh please. The GM bailout cost taxpayers $11 BILLION. And that's not just tax credits to consumers either, that's right off the treasury balance sheet. So, you were saying?
Should we talk about oil/gas subsidies next? Banks, perhaps?
Tesla is hardly the poster child for government largesse.
You must not have seen the poster I saw.
So he gets a pass because everybody else is corrupt too?
Like all government handouts, the amounts publicly made available are just the tip of the iceberg. For example, he obviously got a lot of rocket technology for free.
A lot of NASA research is available for free...
"What a load of crap. The US taxpayer loses $4,000 on every Tesla because of the subsidies it receives.Tesla would be out of business if it had to stand on its own two feet. "
It's actually way more than that. ...& don't forget that this is effectively money borrowed in your children's name!
According to it's own website the Federal subsidies Tesla ( purchasers ) recieves per car are $7,500.
State subsidies and rebates, and sales tax abatements/exemptions can amount to thousands more.
Louisiana provides up to $9,500 in subsidization 'depending on the battery choice'.
http://www.teslamotors.com/support/incentives
Louisiana also happens to have some the highest poverty rates in the United States.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/02/15/cheat-sheet-states-povert...
"3. Louisiana
• Number of people living below poverty during 2013: 888,019
• Percentage of people living below poverty during 2013: 19.8%
• Number of people living below poverty in 2012: 891,981
• Food stamp use ranking: Louisiana has the seventh- highest food stamp use-percentage in the U.S."
But you have not figured in the Magic of our Central Planning overlords, Comrade.
Everyone knows battery powered cars are SHIT!
Tesla Motors is the ultimate "vapor company" -a synaptic illusion of TV and computer drenched brains that can't recognize nature/reality slapping them in the face.
Its founder may be the ultimate crony capitalist of the 21st century, somehow harnessing the entire federal apparatus to his fantasies.
It doesn't matter how much the dude loses. Once the elite choose you you have free reign (in certain areas). Banksters got hold of the presses.
Correct, Comrade.
Comrade Lenin said it best: "To rule we must have a Central Bank."
See Bezos and Amazon.
Dot.com 2.0
Five years in business, inflated salaries and bonuses with no profit on the horizon.
Solyndra, anyone? That Musk is a fucking genius.
Band posts: "Solyndra, anyone? That Musk is a fucking genius."
.gov picking winners..at least tesla makes a car people do use, solyndra produced a product that no one wanted.. 2 bad apple's produced by central planners - musk, he's getting rich why complain?
basis of our economy : crime. this message appoved by mafia don's everywhere.
I'll enjoy watching Musk driving his data collecting car and end up mysteriously driving off a cliff.
Segway tycoon Jimi Heselden dies in cliff plunge on one of his own ...
Tesla would be profitable tomorrow with a minor tweak to the fine print.
*Batteries not included
Ha ha! Anyone know how the Prius batteries hold up? Toyota really was the first and the Prius seem to hold up pretty well. I think turbo diesel hybrids are a better solution like some of the stuff VW and BMW can do.
Ener1 was also making electric car batteries and became another Solyndra.
"The parent company of an electric car battery maker that received more than $100 million in government funding from the Obama administration has filed for bankruptcy protection, the company announced Thursday.
Alex Sorokin, the CEO for lithium-ion battery manufacturer Ener1, said the company suffered when demand for the batteries dropped as fewer Americans than expected opted for electric cars."
"EnerDel, a subsidiary of Ener1 dedicated to making batteries for electric cars, was awarded a $118 million grant from the Energy Department in 2009 as part of President Obama's economic stimulus package and green energy push."
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ener1-parent-obama-backed-green-company-fi...
Looks like Ener1 and its officers and directors are being sued for fraud.
"This is a federal securities class action against Ener1 and certain of its officers and/or directors for violations of the federal securities laws."
"The Exchange Act claims allege that Defendants engaged in a fraudulent scheme to artificially inflate the Company’s stock price. As a result of the fraud described below, the Company has lost a substantial portion of its value."
http://www.saxenawhite.com/pdfs/Ener1.pdf
Fraud? FRAUD?
Have to slap their wrists. Naughty Naughty Boys!! Don't do it again!!
And a Russian oligarch bought Ener1 out of bankruptcy.
"A little more than a year after Biden's visit to Ener1's Indiana manufacturing plant, the company's technology is owned outright by Boris Zingarevich, a Russian businessman with ties to Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, a fact that concerns some technology experts in the U.S"
"The company tapped the country's top scientists at Argonne National Lab in Illinois, and U.S. taxpayers pledged up to $118 million in federal stimulus funds and $80 million in state and local incentives to help Ener1 produce cutting-edge battery technology for electric cars and the U.S. military.
Looks like the SEC is getting involved also.
"Separately, the enforcement division of the SEC is investigating Ener1 for securities fraud after it failed to report its financial condition and business dealings. "
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-08/business/ct-biz-0408-batte...
Somewhat unfair, in that the operating loss includes all expenses - not just the expense per car. If you are truly spending $4000 more in parts and labor per car you sell then you are dead, or need to raise prices. If parts and labor give you a $4000 profit per car, but you are losing $8000 per car in overhead and development (and lavish parties, etc) then there is still hope if you increase your volume or cut those costs. Unfortunately, the books are too 'cooked' to tell!
Good point.
If that $8000 lose (against a $4000 gain) has a significant portion going into the right pockets (obviously a good portion is going into the owners pockets) and is properly sanitized in this process then you can also count on getting more and larger govt "subsidies" for your operation as a good portion of those govt subsidies are going into the right pockets.
They may even let you go into other related money losing businesses using govt subsidies that help line those pockets, such as making fancy batteries.
Ok, OK, we lose money on every single car, but we make it up in volume!
(had to throw that in).
Imagine how much they would lose if they had car dealers and salesmen.
But they could make it up by channel stuffing.
Pity thay can't harness the rotational energy of Nicola Tesla spinning in his grave. Would make the cars go faster, methinks.
My guess is this technology is still at least 5 years away from being perfected for this use, too. Just the safety factors alone should have slowed the implementation.
Unless that have foolproofed how to keep the anode and cathode (particularly the cathode) environments completely homogeneous durng production then I wouldn't drive one of these if you gave it to me. I would love to see long term safety studies.
I thought they ran on 2400 AA Duracells? Maybe that was Fiskars?, I dont know, perhaps they shoulda went with Enerloops? I'm not a scientist obviously, thats why I drive a used 2001 Prizm...(toyota Corolla) it starts and goes and just keeps starting and going....
Do you know if they use Kapton wiring?
Everytime somebody starts talking about electric cars, somebody pulls Kapton wiring out they ass!
Thank you for your contribution to the thread.
Well......somebody had to say it.
Guessin' that's a "NO"
Ahhhhhllllll-righty then.
I have seen a picture of a Tesla battery cut open, and, yes, it appears they use Kapton to encase each and every cell.
In aircraft Kapton has been banned due to causing explosive fires, which, have dropped aircraft out ot the skies.
Albeit, the problem was never corrected by re-wiring as the aircraft industry stated it would cost 100 billion.
Just goggle/youtube Kapton fires in aircraft wiring, and, you will see what you are riding in.
Of course Tesla batteries are liquid cooled, that, should help with environmental degradation (drying)
of the Kapton, which, causes it to become brittle and explode when shorted electrically.
Time will tell.
Jethro, I don't have to google it. I flew helicopters for the Navy - the MH-53E to be precise. I know first-hand how badly Kapton wears when subjected to vibration and extreme climates. And yes, it has led to the deaths of a number of pilots and aircrew - in the military and the commercial aviation sector.
Kapton is good at some things; but as an electrical wiring insulator in aircraft (and anything else that vibrates), it doesn't age well. At all.
Volume...it's about volume in this new 'normal'. Profits? That's so 20th Century.
2015 Tesla Model S costs $105,000 (decked out, base model $69,000).
The problem with Tesla is that there's not enough 1%ers around to buy the product. Just give .Gov some time, and in the meanwhile, get the 99%ers to subsidize the venture. A folks wagon for the Nationalist Oligarchy party. (NAZOs)
there a number of 1% wannabees buying these. just like SUV's back in the day when it was cool to own one. the CEO and SVP got around the luxury car tax by buying the SUV and then 10 years later everyone was driving an SUV even the walmart/trailer park crowd. unintended consequences of government policy.
Oh and Tesla (Elon Musk) isn't losing shit on each car - his gullible investors and our fucking stupid government is losing the (our) money. Jackasses - all of them.
Jackasses? Musk and his federal enablers are laughing all the way to the bank. When this turd finishes circling the bowl, their money will be out and safe in the bank, as they move on to the next thing. You want to find the jackass? Look in the mirror. It's all of us.
@Buckaroo If there's any justice in this world, the money that was supposedly "safe in the bank" will be confiscated along with everyone else's somewhere down the line.
Depends on whether you are Too Big to Jail or not. ... If you are a club member, Janet will just print up another trillion or two for a bespoke debt jubilee for you.
Is Elon in the club?
Elan will just get another handout and everything will be fine. I'm going long TSLA!
Yes...But it "feels" good.
The complacent taxpayer just sucks it up, and will gladly pay more.
Musk keeps right on fucking us. Why? Because he is "saving" the planet!
Gotta love big gubmint!
That's what she said, guys now? Not so much.
Sounds like the gold/silver/platinum mining business model.
Crony capitalism under Obama's watch. TPP that no one can see. New climate change measures to steal more wealth by jacking up national debt to declare 2% increase underemployment factors of part-time working force.
He's one smart nigger.
You are one racist douche-fuck asshole.
Tell us about the BUSH bank bailout.
Fuck off cunt, read below.
There is no such thing as "racism" or "racists." This is a made-up word, coined by Trotsky himself. Stop using it.
If I was a nigger and you called me a nigger, I wouldn't have any problem w1ith that especially if I was a nigger.
Call me a douche fuck asshole and I would come and blow your fucking brains out.
But one thing you are right about, Fucking obummer is not a nigger.
That is a fucking insult to niggers everywhere,
I will correct him on that point, the fucking obummer is a fucking monkey, a faggot shit stabbing, bath house trolling crony corrupt Kenyan monkey. Not a nigger
And faggot fucking monkeys should be kept in zoos so the kids can have fun watching these faggot monkeys ass fucking each other.
Now I'm not racist, but i am fucking specist as hell, and that fucking cunt you put in the Whitehouse , is not the same fucking species as me.
yeah! Call me a 'Jacked up unemployed factor' and there will be some real trouble!
Everybodies a racist, not only niggers...
Oblowme is Indonesian, not African. If you have spent a lot of time in those areas like I have, you would see the difference.
This is 2015, not 2008 you dumb cunt.
Without the artificial subsidy of Affirmative Action, "Affirmative Action" Barry Soetoro would never have received so much as a worthless high school "Certificate of Completion". He has set himself up as an example that will be reviled for decades if not centuries. No, he's one dumb POSED*.
*POSED—Pile Of Stinkin' Excerememt Democrat (as opposed to the POSERs—Pile Of Stinkin' Excerememt Republicans).
Wish I had been able to lose $4500-14000 per unit sale and still be worth as much as Elon...
Warranty, baby
Even if Tesla fails as an electric car manufacturer, we should all support its business model of selling cars directly to the public without the useless independent dealer middlemen.
They can make it up with volume ... I know this is an absurd statement, but the whole idea of .gov keeping a company afloat so they can produce more cars that use electricity that is derived from coal and at the same time drive coal out of business. It's like paying to crow corn so we can make ethanol to mix into gasoline fouling our engines so it will burn cleaner only to find out that it produces more pollutants.
in crony capitalism, all that's important is that your buddies make their fortunes
they don't dwell on the mess created in the aftermath
And he is about to release the Model X ($5000? $6000? per car) and then his incarnation of the infamous Chevy Volt. Success all around.
Tesla = Tucker
How bad are the Big Boys busting on him?
Tucker got torpedoed!
Raise the price $4000 and offer 15 year loans
Another company hemorrhaging money ... sounds like a good investment.
Eventually, you will connect the dots on who takes ownership of technology.
Just put a petrol engine in..... problem solved. No more charging or time wasting.
Hell, even a steam engine at this juncture makes more sense, especially with the global warming and all...just park the damn thing in the sun!...Backup Propane power for cloudy days ala Hank Hill!...not that bastard gas 'butane'! That shits for lighting smokes, not running a car..you are on to something here Geo!
or diminishing power/range year after year (lose 5% to 10% per year compounded)
and after 6 years, if you want the original performance, you've got to spend $10-15K for a new battery.
is that before or after the government subsidies and tax breaks?
Pissin it all away...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05qswXlEruA
Too bad my Lincoln Mark LT/Navigator would survive a crash into this new GM truck. I found this Focus Group interesting. Wanted to share. I loathe GM.
Focus Groups: You Know You Want A Truck – 2015 Colorado ...
I don't understand why it makes a difference if you have been talking about this since 2013. Nobody seemed to care until 2015!
It seems to me that electric cars that were being operated in the USA 100 years ago were much more cost effective and profitable. Had it not been for oil companies setting up fuel stations in the countryside, we would probably all have electric cars by now. Makes you wonder whether Tesla is lreally worried about making profit.
Only a $4K loss per car? They can make that up in volume.
It's called profit margins. 10-20-35-50%. Grab Obama's hand and start a lemonade stand. Don't forget your permit. See how much Obama makes in the real world. Stupid liberals will figure it out. One day!
I have a new technology ZH readers might want to invest in, I can't tell you all about it but just that it lets a car get 50mpg downhill. Investors welcome but all payments must be in gold or lithium. Thanx.
Our American landscapers own lawnmowers. Thanks for the tip. If I wanted to drive a golf cart, would be living on Longboat Island, Fl. Too young to engage in a 2/mpg fatality. Bingo is boring.
All kidding aside. I love the Island. Great people.
Their having a hard time competing with shopping carts pushed around by homeless people..
Tesla really missed the boat by not building a modern replica of the VW Camper of the hippie dayz.
Considering people can't afford a home AND a car, it seems the market is ready for nomadic millennials whose parents are in worse financial straits.
A bed, stove, mini-frig on four wheels with a patina of the dead American Dream rolling on trickle-charge solar electricity seems like the only model to salvage this meta-internets EBITDA bubble.
How to fill Walmart parking lots with new Teslas?
Let them live in their cars.
A weekend of Tesla ingenuity and double wide finance models will turn Tesla around in no time.
"Tesla loses about $4000 on ever [sic] car it makes."
The purchasers lose $70k and up on every car Tesla makes.
Really? I hear dummies say that about gold too.
It was a joke about an overpriced fire hazard. But, since you mention it, you don't know better than anyone else what gold is going to do. Adjusted for inflation, gold is priced at 220% of what it was 100 years ago. Silver is about 100%. People say silver will go up based on the historical gold/silver ratio, which some claim is 16:1, which is nonsense. 100 years ago, the ratio was about 33:1 and it has varied greatly over the years. No matter, silver does not have to go up to return to the historical ratio; gold can come down, having the same effect on the ratio. Is gold in a bubble? No one really knows. If a person bought gold when it was $1,800 and needed to liquidate some of that for an emergency today, they lose $700 per ozt. I'm not a gold basher or bug, and I don't pretend to know what PM prices are going to do. 100 years ago, the dollar was pegged to gold. Now, gold is priced in dollars. PMs have been and will continue to be manipulated. We may not discover who the real "dummies" are in our lifetime.
They will get you on the come-back.
Replacement parts, factory trained mechanics, OEM lubricants...
Tesla is going the way of the Delorean.
BMW as well
http://en.yibada.com/articles/9165/20150107/bmw-agrees-to-cover-5-1-bill...
Don't worry, they'll make up for it with volume.
You mean the SpaceX division? LOL
Don't worry, the KGB, err, 'Russian Scientists' will get to the bottom of the rocket failures.
Rocket Surgery is out of my I.Q. range. I was just trying to make a funny with Volume = Space. Both can be measured in unit called the Mole which is 6.022 x 10^23 molecues of clean (non-radioactive) carbon
... err wait. I see what you did there ... touche sir.
yes, but when barry shows up with another "picking the winners" check, tesla will be profitable again.
nothing but growth here.
The thing to watch for over the next 2 year with Tesla is when they announce their first gasoline powered product. It is coming. It won't save them, most likely, but desperation will force it.
Coming out soon - the new bleeding edge Tesla model with an internal combustion engine.
It works like this:
1) He comes up with a big idea.
2) You pay for it.
3) He takes a huge cut.
4) It never becomes economically sustainable.
But that’s not the point. The point is putting extremely large amounts of money in Elon Musk’s pockets.
Elon Musk
I have been interested in some of the ideas that Elon Musk has, so I have l been looking into his companies. I have come to the conclusion that many of them are nothing more than scams. SpaceX isn’t a real independent company considering it survives almost exclusively on government contracts. Not really that big of a deal but it not a real market company. Tesla, again it doesn’t make any money based on the sales of it cars however it makes money by selling carbon credits, again a tie to government bullshit.
Elon Musk
So, he's a smart businessman.
Vlad: Bath House, I am giving away these rocket rides for your astronuts since you blew up the US Space Program in order to make muslims think they invented spaceflight. Why, these rockets and rides are a steal at 5 million each, before options."
BH: "Uh, what options?"
Vlad: "Why just the motors, telemetry, escape modules, parachutes. Small stuff. Let's not quibble. Look, I'm giving you free rocket fuel!"
BH: "OK, it's not like it was my money or anything."
***
BH: Hmmm, space flight. I heard a guy's balls just float there like ripe grapes...perhaps I should be the first gaymarxistnazimuslim into Space! And Elon has all those smart Russian scientists working for him. They have access to everything! I bet his rocket problems get solved and I can tell Vlad to bug off...
Who wants to buy such expensive cars...
The Original Choomwagon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rgDyEO_8cI
Canada vs. US and what they subsidize. Make up your own mind as to who uses R&D tax dollars more effectively.
http://www.thoughtpursuits.com/eco-friendly-car-composed-entirely-hemp/#
All from a weed that is happy to grow where not much else will.
Musk is NOT the new Steve Jobs. Not even close.
Steve Jobs is not the Steve jobs you think he might have been. Neither is planned parenthood "billy gates" Jr.