This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Court To Bakery Owners: You Have No Property Rights
Submitted by Ryan McMaken via The Mises Institute,
The Colorado Appeals Court ruled that the owners of a bakery do not have any right to control their property, and that they shall be forced to provide bakery services to a couple that the owner would rather not do business with. In other words, they have no property rights. The court writes:
Masterpiece remains free to continue espousing its religious beliefs, including its opposition to same-sex marriage. However, if it wishes to operate as a public accommodation and conduct business within the State of Colorado, CADA prohibits it from picking and choosing customers based on their sexual orientation.
These sorts of rulings essentially rewrite the very nature of commerce and our whole concept of contracts. A business agreement (i.e., a contract) is based on two parties agreeing to a voluntary relationship. This is the foundation not only of business relationships, but of the relationship between citizens and states themselves. This is why "social contract" theory is so popular among theorists. Everyone recognizes that coerced relationships are inherently unjust, which is why defenders of the modern state system claim that states derive their legitimacy from a "social contract" in which both parties agree to the relationship.
Without this contract into which both parties have presumably entered voluntarily, the relationship is unjust and a violation of basic human rights. But that all just goes out the window, apparently, when we're talking about discrimination. With court decisions like these, the court is saying that we can have contracts in which one only side agrees to it. But let's just call this what it is: seizure of one of the party's private property.
Moreover, in an attempt to muddy the waters further, we're being told that this case is about religion. Ultimately, though, cases like these are really about nothing more than the simple right to control one's private property:
In practice, the decision to exclude is always based on some type of discrimination. The type of discrimination can run the gamut from “you’re banned from my store because you groped customers” to “I don’t serve your (racial) kind.” In everyday life, the merchant, salesman, clerk, or owner of any kind must — because time is scarce — make constant discriminatory decisions as to whether or not he will do business with client A or client B. Indeed, every single economic act requires this sort of discrimination. A person may prefer to do business with more attractive people, or people who are friendlier. Or he may wish to work only with his co-religionists or citizens of his own nation-state. On a fundamental level, everyone knows this is the case, but many accept that it is the legitimate role of the state to decide which types of discrimination are acceptable and which are not. Hence, discrimination against unattractive people remains acceptable. Discrimination against certain racial groups is not.
Regardless of what groups end up being favored, the effect of any anti-discrimination law is to curtail the freedom of the owner and to increase the size and scope of government’s coercive power over the lives and livelihoods of property owners. Moreover, since anti-discrimination law is heavily dependent on proving intent and motivation, such regulation also puts the government in the position of investigating the thoughts and opinions of owners. Sometimes, owners make this easy for regulators by stating their motivations outright, but in other cases, private owners are investigated and inferences are made as to the feelings and views of owners. This is necessary because, since every business transaction requires some sort of discrimination, the mere act of not entering into a business transaction is not sufficient to prove not-government-approved discrimination.
And even from a consequentialist angle, there is no real "cost" on the party being refused service. In this case, the refused party merely needs to drive down the road to one of dozens of similar bakeries in the Denver metropolitan area. But even if there were no other bakery in town (which is untrue of any community but the tiniest) the answer to this is to encourage more commercial freedom. Restricting commercial freedom merely produced the opposite effect of producing fewer bakeries:
Thus, those who wish to lessen the negative effects of discrimination on consumers ought to concentrate on expanding the economic options for those who face discrimination. This is done through deregulation of industry and the elimination of corporate welfare and other anti-market programs and regulations that favor incumbent and semi-monopolist firms. Unfortunately, however, those who favor regulation of discrimination also tend to favor government regulation in general, including wage rates, employment practices, lending practices, food “purity,” and nearly everything else, in spite of the fact that the sum effect of such regulations is to prevent the entry of new firms into the market place while protecting the standing of large politically-powerful firms. The result is fewer merchants, fewer firms, fewer jobs, and more monopoly power which leads precisely to the negative discrimination-imposed burdens that the pro-regulation lobby claims to be fighting against.
»
- 79957 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Molon Coissant!
The social 'con'tract: replacing the "divine right of kings" with the "divine right of gangs" since John Locke and Thomas Hobbes.
How about just beating them at their own game?
"A gay wedding? We've been waiting so long for the oppotunity to explain to a bunch of gays, all at one place, about how homosexuality is a sin. We'll provide extra freebies for you by handing out pamplets at your wedding about how what you're doing is so wrong in the eyes of God. We'll even have a member of the Westboro Baptist Church there to explain it all to you to make it easy to understand. And we'll throw all this in for FREE, whether you like it or not!"
Do you have a quote from Jesus about this sin? Jesus was about love everyone unconditionally. THE MAIN MESSAGE!
Whoa... So you lived with Jesus and recorded all of His statements. Impressive...
What did He say about selling short in 2016?
Well no, I didn't. Nor did anyone else here. Or for that matter anyone who printed the new testament. But if these plebs need to back Jesus, I'm saying give me a 2000 yr. old quote!
Wedding Cake Prices
Hetero Couple $25
Homo Couple $50
Trannies $100
Illegal Aliens $500 on SNAP Card w/$250 kickback
You must be a bachelor, or in your 70's, quoting those prices
How come the local grocery store can give seniors a discount on Tuesdays, and not give it to me? Isn't that AGE discrimination???
no different than the treasonous un-Constitional, corrupt Supreme Court...just on a lower level.
No different than the Department of Injustice and the massive corruption there.
No different than the corruption in the White House.
No different than the corruption in the CON-gress and the Sentate-scum.
No different than all of them....
oh...and by the way...
Who Is John Gault???
Those people should shut down their business and walk away.
All business owners should shut down and walk away.
Fuck 'em all!!!!!!!!!!
Ayn Rand was right all along....
Never refuse to do busines with anybody due to religion, faggotry or whatever. Just ask them to describe the type of cake they want and when the want it. Then explain that you can't have it ready that soon, or you can't get the ingredients or food coloring or whatever. Put the burden of proof on them.
They can't prove discrimination unless you are stupid enough to tell them directly.
yeah you can play that game...fine.
But that's not the answer. For one, first and foremost, the owner has the right to refuse business to anyone he/she wants to no matter what. Plain and simple.
And secondly...these fucking people, along with the fucking scumbag judges who side with these fucking scumbag people, don't have a legitimate complaint. And everyone needs to understand that the "issue" is never really the "issue" with fuck-tards like these people.
They're brain damaged, mentally ill, demented, scumbags who think that fucking with people and using a corrupt court system becomes "justice".
The issue is never really the issue with these types of scumbags. They don't really care about this bakery making them a fucking wedding cake. They're sick-headed Marxist scum who believe that the ends justify the means by all ways of tyranny in order to destroy the freedom and rights of all other people.
These are seriously mentally disturbed, fucked up people who think they can just "cry wolf"...scream bigotry, racism, sexism, and whatever else their dimented, twisted, fucked up, worthless, useless, and sickenly devious minds can come up with in order to get their shallow, pathetic way.
And they do not care what it takes to destroy everyone elses right and freedoms. They don't care what it costs their targets and they do not care what it costs the rest of the community.
They do not care about so-called "tolercance"....these fucking scumbags have ZERO tolerance for you, friends, or family if you aren't "tolerant" of what they DEMAND...yet they will never admit how absolutely intollerant they are of everybody else on the fucking planet who doesn't agree with their bullshit.
The only way to cure the planet of these people is to kill them. But then that puts us in the same category, doesn't it?
That's the fucking conundrem we as a human society find ourselves in at this time. There is no peace because the powers that be are creating massive division between every type of group on the entire planet in order to foment massive chaos so that they can get to their One World Order or New World Order.
It's all demonic, satanic, and just sickening...because that's what those people have become.
The way to cure humanity of this plague is to wipe these people out and start over again. Fight fire with fire.
Hey....
They say they don't belive in weapons...well...fuck 'em.
We believe in weapons.
So let's fight it out and see who wins.
Game over for them. Fuck 'em.
Did the court rule on what ingredients they use to bake their cake? :) Shit cakewich
The faggots are crawling everywhere right now looking for anyone to sue.
One thing is for sure, Trump isn't going to save your sorry asses. That is for yourselves to do, or maybe Jesus. But feel free to continue bitching as the faggots take action and prance around with more courage than anyone else.
Word-dings...
https://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2014/01/26/the-homo-sexual-oxymoron-dis...
We have a right to do what we want. That includes flying drones on your property, spying on your daughter and wife, hacking their computers, stealing their personal information. And baking bread too.
a sad, frightened, little big man.
Shame on you.
what is teh we "frightened" of?
not sure but the larger picture is that the analysis upthread was fresh and young when barry goldwater ran for president (i wore an auh2o pin). however the civil rights laws and their routine upholding by all courts make said analysis obsolete. one is left arguing what a public accomodation is and looks like it includes a wedding cake since: (from wiki) In Colorado, it has been illegal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity or expression in employment, housing, public accommodations, education, and credit since the category "sexual orientation" was added to the state's Public Accommodations Law in 2008. The bill was controversial and following its passage by the legislature opponents waged a media campaign that failed to persuade Governor Bill Ritter to withhold his signature.
imo homosexuals will be considered like blacks and women shortly, say what you may.
p.s. beam/scotty asks an interesting question. lawyers?
MISES:
A business agreement (i.e., a contract) is based on two parties agreeing to a voluntary relationship.
MISES QUOTES:
if it wishes to operate as a public accommodation and conduct business within the State of Colorado, CADA prohibits it from picking and choosing customers based on their sexual orientation.
The end.
By the asshat court’s twisted logic, all retail is a public accommodation..
Employees are a part of the public at large and therefore should be immune from discriminatory firing regardless of their aberrant behavior.
Yes, and because the business was licensed. It sought to exercise a right or privilege that otherwise would have been illegal, immoral, or unethical. So apparently making cakes is illegal, immoral or unethical without the sanction of the state. They sought the license, they have to now abide by the rules & regulations that attach to that license, specifically in this case Colorado Revised Statutes Title 24, Article 34, Part 6.
If he had kept his business private, employing a simple members only scheme, he could have avoided having to serve these entitled fags.
Let this be a lesson to all would-be entrepreneurs: If you want to play in the state sandbox you have to play by their rules. It's best to stay out of the public and operate in the private. Then they can't so readily claim jurisdiction (if you read the appeals ruling you'll see that the proprietor did in fact challenge jurisdiction but in both cases the administrative court ruled it had it, and it's right: he's licensed).
I am Chumbawamba.
If somebody started dictating to me who my customers should be, I'd simply pull up stakes and relocate. They want to destroy a free market? To hell with them. No wonder Trump is getting so much grassroots support. When he made that comment about political correctness the other night, I just about jumped out of my chair. He really hit the nail on the head.
I. Just. Don't. Understand. People. Like. You.
Why do you and your Bible-thumping ilk care whether a subset of society gains benefits from laws that apply to everyone else?
Really... it's a serious question. Why do you care? Why do you impose your 2,000 year old text on others? And of all the religions that ever existed, why are you so certain yours is correct in its teachings? Especially when the oldest gospel in the New Testament (Mark) is estimated to have been authored 20 - 40 years after J.C. walked around? Especially when the gospels that eventually made it into the version you grew up with were selected by the early church in a political process that was very much a man-made (and therefore flawed) construct?
Drives me nuts to hear / read dogmatic, semi-literate Bible-thumping idiots who regretably are entitled to a vote in this country.
Nobody cares what somebody does behind closed doors. But the deliberate, nonstop mainstreaming of abnormal, deviant lifestyles in society is harmful. Homosexuals have the same right to marry as everyone else, but they want to CHANGE the definition of marriage itself in order to accomodate their perversion. Males and females are obviously made for each other. Sex is for reproduction. Heterosexual marriage is the best social structure for raising children. Anybody with eyes and half a brain should be able to see that human beings are not biologically designed for homosexuality. It is not good for kids to be taught in school and on in the media that homosexuality is normal and healthy, because it's not. And it's not good for a child to be intentionally deprived of a mother and a father by gays who want to adopt.
To answer your question --THIS is why it matters.
Not sure why I bother, but here goes... Every one of the Fox News bullet points you so carefully parroted has a very straightforward rebuttal:
1. "Abnormal", "Deviant", etc. is your hang up. Not necessarily others'.
2. The changing of a definition has exactly zero impact on you.
3. Come to my house one night when my wife is chewing my ass out because I didn't accurately enough read her mind about some rinky dink shit, and then tell me whether males and females are obviously made for each other.
4. Sex is NOT SOLELY for reproduction. Absolute horseshit. Assuming you're not Catholic, ask your preacher (or whatever) whether he / she pumps out a kid every time they have sex.
5. Based on what evidence are you asserting that heterosexual marriage is the best social structure for raising children?
6. Humans aren't biologically designed for flight either, yet we have airplanes to get it done.
7. Everything else.. again.. those are, like, your hang ups man.
In short: go in peace. Or whatever. But try to live and let live without imposing your dogma on others. I happen to piss on your views, but I'll absolutely defend your right to hold such views.
nice work
i think jesus is a red herring here. it's old old testament, leviticus (#3), that condemns homosexuality.
better not be eating pork or shrimp either if everything in leviticus is to be followed.
Good point Jeff. Let's start a crusade to force all kosher delis in JYC to serve ham and cheese sammies or be forced to admit that they're discriminating against non-Chosenites. Wonder what the decision of the 3 judge appellate court, Levinthal, Rosenstein and Shapiro, would be?
Next they'll be telling me I can't support the BDS.
Apples and oranges arguments everywhere here. I'm pretty sure the Jewish deli is obliged to serve all customers, just like the bakery isn't being forced to do an oil change on their car. This ruling is not actually news, I'm pretty sure these precedents were set in the 60s or 70s for other minority groups.
I hate homo's and lesbians who hang around our innocent children just so they can breed.
whose breeding here?
anyone whose sexual orientation can be determined by proximity and persuasion is of indeterminate sexual orientation.
best reply ever those religious tards thinking they are right and everybody else is wrong,
main reason why i stopped beleiving in it
I think given only a tiny percent of humans practice homosexuality, that it could be considered abnormal, unless you want to change what the definition of normal is. And Deviant follows closely behind (no pun intended) by being an activity with no biological purpose, that most definitely deviates from what society would recognize as typical. All of this is not to say it should be illegal, but to suggest it is wrong to point out exactly what it is, because political correctness tells us we can't express a negative opinion of it, is everything I reject.
Humans are programed to procreate, but obviously some are also programmed to self destruct. I'm not for restricting either, but it is not wrong to point out that both exist. Self destructive activities are actually quiet rampant and almost ALL seek to pleasure or empower us. Embrace the horror.
As always there are exceptions to every rule, and many here will grasp for that deviation from the norm to bolster their case, but facts are a difficult thing and history and evolution pretty much prove what works and what doesn't.
So feel free to suck or fuck what you will. Develop a sheep fetish if you wish. Just don't tell me its normal or in some way "equal" to all other perspectives. If homosexual behavior was normal and typical to any significant degree, I doubt we would still be the dominant life form on this planet, which is probably desirable for many here.
Homosexuality does have a purpose. Whether it's their elevated rates of sexually transmitted diseases, suicide and psychological disturbance, or simple lack of reproduction due to Behavioral Sink, the Darwinian function of homosexuality is clear. It's called population control for highly dysfunctional and overcrowded societies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink
"In short: go in peace. Or whatever. But try to live and let live without imposing your dogma on others. I happen to piss on your views, but I'll absolutely defend your right to hold such views."
So he is not allowed to "impose his dogma on others" but gays are?
The progressive criminal obamatron assclown is strong with you, state worshiper.
Grimaldus
<Excursionist>
1. "Abnormal, "Deviant", etc. should be hangups. It is abnormal and deviant to not care about gravity when seeking the fastest way down from the 10th floor. Excrement cannot be fertilized. Selah!
2. Changing definitions potentially changes the focus from the Real World to a Fake World. Since we live in the Real World, definitions of the perceptions and conceptions within it are all important to success in this Real World. Homo relationships shouldn't be called marriage (the union between a man and a woman). Maybe they should be called: Smarriage (simulated marriage), because they simulate or to some degree copycat the union between a man and a woman. Similar characteristics? YES. Equivalent? NO!
3. Your wife is chewing you out, because you have chosen to have a different "hang up" (Your Point 1) than she does. You have chosen not to care about her point. Homo or Hetero, values come from within each individual breast; therefore, Your Point 3 applys to all human relations, so it has nothing to add or subtract to the idea that males and females are obviously made for each other in terms of sexual connections (the original point). Try this on her next tirade: "Honey, you know what - You're right!" - makes for great sex - No?
4. True - Sex is NOT SOLELY for reproduction, but it is one of at least 4 main appetites: Food, Water, Sex, Meaning; each of which is designed to further your life, which is interesting since these are fundamental drivers and since Jesus Christ evidently said: "I have come that they might have Life and that more abundantly.". What makes a food the best food? The best food looks good, tastes good, and in fact is good for you. Surely this is a pointer to the best life. What is the best sex? A person may have many preferences, but to call them all normal and good is a careless mistake (by careless, I mean careing less than a person ought to care in a given context). It's just as serious a mistake as not caring about the sanitation of the water I drink - It can kill me and if I want the best life - what I choose to value intensely matters.
5. The best social structure implies politics and force - I'll skip this one to save time.
6. Good point and I add that airplaines involve massive amounts of human toil, experiments, failures and still entail palpable risk. If you want to fly go ahead - just don't force me to fly with you if I don't like your approach. You clearly indicated that you will never deal with me by force: Thank You! I'll do the same for you - respect your soverign right to make your own choices and live with those consequences. If people voluntarily choose to live certain ways, then politically that's fine. Morally it's my right and yours to play with them or not. Don't force me to pay for their health insurance; though, because initiated force sets up a spirit of war between us.
7. People with the same "Hang Ups" tend to hang out together. If someone doesn't want to hang out with somebody else due to different "hangup values", then great. Initiating force against another (imposing your will upon them) is the entire political issue. We all discriminate every time we act on even the smallest decision and we should. Forcing me to discriminate "your way" is slavery and unfit for just human thriving.
The entire purpose of government is sanely simple: To protect the rights of the world's smallest minority to their life, their values, and their stuff. The world's smallest minority is the individual - the actual source of of the value of everything; therefore, one person's trash is often anothers treasure - again, Just don't force me to value anothers trash as though it is my treasure.
Are you seriously going to try and say that butt fucking another man is not deviant behavior? Yeah right bro,OK. The whole, "if it feels good, do it" attitude is what is fucking up this country. We are morally bankrupt because there are no boundaries anymore. Everybody fucks everybody. Literally and figuratively. Have you perhaps read of a place called Rome and what happened there?
"Why do you impose your 2,000 year old text on others? "
I just love it you half-witted, ignorant fuckbags spout this shit.
So marriage has had a definition longer than this country has existed.
So you imbeciles are forcing a change of that definition via govt, forcing everybody else to bow to your disease ridden, perversion infested lifestyle, and then you walk into someone else's store and force them serve you under penalty of govt force. Never mind you fucking cretins are violating your constant screeching about separation of church and state and the reality of the 1st and 13th amendments.
And then you have the gall to tell someone they're forcing something on you. You're a fucking moron.
Oh right - old is good. OK. Let's harken back to Roman tradition (retained informally through the Rennaisance in Italy) in which a gentleman was expected to 'play the field' with the boys until sometime in his early thirties, then settle in to breed with a wife, and retain a couple of pretty young boys for entertainment. In the Roman legions, every skirt-chasing frat boy would've been considered deeply perverted.
Homoeroticism and non-binary orientation have much older and deeper roots than Ozzy and Harriet. Our current assumption of nuclear family structure is a modern experiment. Based on divorce rates and single parenting rates - an experiment that has to be considered less than fully successful.
Dont be an idiot please. Why do you shit-suckers (mirroring your use of bible-thumper) want laws to be inappropriately applied to benefit an extreme minority at the cost of defying the most core principles that our government was founded upon?
Im not gay and not religious so I will say - as an independent bystander - that you are the extremist nutjob here. Where do you draw the line when stepping on the majority to benefit (in this case, not benefit) an extreme minority? They have the right not to serve you. You have the right to vote with your business and fucking go next door. Stop being a whiny bitch ass faggot and do something productive instead of running crying to mom and getting her to punish your sibling for a rule he didnt break.
Bravo! We MUST NOT challenge or question the GAYSTAPO.
They have ways of making you talk.
Greened ya because I just love a good rant!
Thank you. Rant off.
For now. ;-)
But every letter of it is 100% ab-so-fucking-lutley serious.
I do mean it.
We just have to have the courage to not comply.
save america first you are the typical retard poster on zh.
you don't think the 'answer' is staying in business because you don't think.
you don't think because you've never had the challenge of trying to hold onto a business that is your lifeblood and your skill and your saved capital and your inertia, and your reputation and quite possibly a business which is the last thing feeding your kids.
yes, your advice is to just close down is it?
this lawsuit was teh result of calculated activism funded by reality. the effective result is the bakery would not likely shutdown unless the owners are extremely rich or extremely principled and willing to become impoverished over the effective mandate for them to pretend to serve gay people while giving them terrible service if they would like.
the fact is, there is a wya to get around the 'rules' when those rules are messy and stupid. and GETTING AROUND THEM is in 98% of cases the right , the practical and the sensible move that would be flouted and ignore by only a FOOL or someone otherwise unconstrained by general conditions that most people face.
your an inexperienced dolt.
possibly true but experience also teaches that when there is sufficient money involved the techniques you endorse fail at trial because a jury or judge will see through them to the deeper pattern and find for the plaintiff(s).
"your an inexperienced dolt."
Hey imbecile, if you wanna tell someone they're a dolt, you might wanna get your grammar right while you do it.
Try "YOU'RE" on for size next time, dumbass.
I'm with you bro. It's beyond "The farce", sarcasm or even a rhy smile with this PC lunacy.
War plain and simple. Not too long and the culture war or whatever they will call it will actually A shooting war and after the dust is settled we will see who is still standing.
See y'all in FEMA/Reeducation camp 101.
"I ran out of ammo and they flanked me the fuckers, then I forgot that I had not taken that extra clip, who could've foreseen that, but now I have learn't to love Big Brother"
>>>For one, first and foremost, the owner has the right to refuse business to anyone he/she wants to no matter what.
Natural law, I believe, tells us that. But the US Code tells us otherwise.
Rand Paul, to his credit, actually made a public statement that the "public accomodation" component of the Civil Right Act should be overturned. Being Rand, he also retracted this statement.
No shirt, no shoes, no service, NO MORE!!!
I'll be looking for topless girls in stores now but won't hold my breath.
For one, first and foremost, the owner has the right to refuse business to anyone he/she wants to no matter what. Plain and simple.
What is plain and simple is the real definition of a right: A right is a "defended" "claim".
First, there must be a claim.
Second, that claim must be defended.
The owner failed to defend his claim. The customer succeeded in defending their claim. Their claims were diametrically opposed. The decision lies in the defense.
If I were in the position of deciding, I would say this is not a government issue ... the government would defend neither claim. If we believe the government is overreaching (and I so believe), then it is incumbent on we who believe that to (1) claim it; (2) defend our claim ... probably by removing the defense for the counter claim ... i.e. ridiculous overreaching laws. Our constitution has proven to be no defense.
We didn't get to this point of decay quickly and we're not going to get away from it quickly (sans a reset and anarchy).
It's just that plain and simple.
Don't know. But I know who John Galt is. He died.
Alternatively, put two cups of salt into the cake and tell the Buyer(s) it's 'sperm-flavored!'
Yes, I hope these assholes just board up the business and walk away. They can go somewhere where there are no LGBT to offend them by trying to buy a fucking cake. Screw these so-called religious people. They're just selfish pricks who bask in their self-righteousness.
These people should kep their business open and Bundy ranch the statist pigs that want to come shut them down.
No different than the illusion that people think they are "free" in this country, or that you "own" land...
Every business I know discriminates on the ability to pay. Is that going to be ruled unjust by the courts?
Eventually it will.
That's already the case in the housing market -- the banks were pretty much forced to make bad loans to high default risk customers. I'm no friend of the banks but when you do things counter to the free market, don't be surprised when you get bizarre unintended consequences, which is exactly what happened.
Yeah. They were forced. Who do you think made the institutions that forced the banks to lend the money (they created out of nowhere) that people had to pay interest on?
Actually 'Seek' is correct - the banks were forced. I'm no fan of big banks by any means, but that housing fiasco was legislated, and that's a fact!
But who runs the legislators? I don't have direct knowledge, but evidence points toward a "circle jerk".
BINGO. +1000 The housing bubble had nothing to do with 'forcing' the banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford housing. It had everything to do with 'legislating' a mechanism through which those very same banks could blow another fucking bubble, rake in billions in the process, and then use those billions to play in the wall-street casino and convert them into trillions via all sorts of 'financial instruments'. The fucking BANKS were the ones whose lips were on the housing bubble balloon. Like so many other things, they use their puppets in con-gress to give 'legislative' cover to their shenanigans....all in the name of societal benefit, of course.
Discrimination means"to ascertain a difference". It is legal to discriminate, unless it is for reasons of race, religion, national origin, etc, all of which are spelled in the laws of the country.
Do what Muslim bakers do. Whenever you bake something for a Christian, they just sprinkle a little dried shit on it.
I AM NOT making this up.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/02/uk-shop-owners-sold-chocolate-cake-spr...
https://youtu.be/RgWIhYAtan4
"How come the local grocery store can give seniors a discount on Tuesdays, and not give it to me?"
How about "ladies night?" Sex discrimination. (Soon to be changed to "ladies with or without a penis night.")
Women generally don't buy their own drinks. They declare it ladies night to get the simpletons to come in and buy drinks for the women. Not that there are any actual ladies in there, seeing as how ladies don't drink.
pussy pass.
Don't flatter yourself, Coloradons or Americans!
This is the race to the bottom!
South Africa is about to pass a law to expropriate properties already!
expropriation south africa
If the KKK goes into a black bakery and asks for a "Happy KKK anniversary'' cake, does he have to bake it?
If an Arab goes into a Jewish bakery and asks for a "Down With Isreal" cake?
If a Jew goes into an Arab bakery and asks for a "I hate Sharia" cake?
Wow, this is starting to sound like a joke... A jew, an Arab, and a black walk into a bakery...
Will a gay San Fran bakery be forced to bake a cake for Westboro Baptist? They should.
That could be the WB nutjobs next antifaggot campaign... go around demanding gay bakeries make cakes that say "SODOMITES GO TO HELL" or something.
FUCK YEAH!
I wouldn't want to screw around with someone who provided food to me.
Food is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get from a pissed off provider.
That is the reason none of this makes sense to me. Don't those gay people who want a cake know what happens when you are an ass to the chef? I mean as soon as there was a court involved my whole stance would have changed. "You want a cake? I will make you a cake alright".
My fiancé and I are hetero but we are also illegals and I am basically here to get obamacare to cover my tranny surgery, BUT I don't have a vag yet... So how much will that wedding cake be?
GOLD! Post of the day.....
$19.99 (cash only) can we tape the event?
Mohammad's Hahal Cakes 'n Biscuits... Seattle
I wonder how popular this bullshit will be when a White person or a Christian or a Male can't buy food to survive on. If you want to go down this road, fine, but understand that discrimination works both ways and just because you're in the majority today doesn't mean you will be tomorrow.
@juangrande
I'm not religious, so I have no clue what Jesus said. I just hate all this PC Consitution-burning.
I'm with you ACP. But refusing service to someone ( other than they have no money) is bigotry. Now if "someone" is actually doing harm to another ( not a misguided and historically abused idealogy), then perhaps one has a right to refuse. But prove it first! Otherwise, free your mnd and profit in various ways!
If everything else is bigotry, how is not having any money not bigotry? There is a whole class of people in the US without any money.
Money, in its unadulterated form, is free of bigotry. It is only an exchange medium for value created thru effort of some form. It cares not about the possessors past times or proclivities, if you will. Commonly agreed upon laws have something to say about where or how money is derived. But who a person is sexually/morally/spiritually attracted to should not be in that equation. If it is, it is bigotry.
By your logic, a person should be able to force the bakery to draw a little boy with his butt exposed on a cake for a pedophile. We wouldn't want to offend the little perverted fag now would we. Wake up man and use your brain. Homosexuality and all the other freaks out there are still offensive to a great many Americans, and offending someone's conscience is hurting them and so it should be perfectly legal to discriminate according to sexual preference.
OK. Since you lack logic. Abusing children ( sexually, religiously, and other various ways) can be reasonally proved to be detrimental behaviour causing harm to the child. Homosexuality cannot be proved to be anything except offensive to (likely closet homosexuals) others. The difference is that being abused is the child's problem inflicted by another. Being offended is your problem, inflicted by yourself.
Pedophilia is not legal. Don't be a retard. Being gay is legal.
Legal? Now that is a weak argument!
My concealed carry is legal in 14 states, but not in the two states north and south of me and I live just a few minutes’ drive to the border, So suddenly something perfectly legal in my state is a felon if cross a line drawn on a map.
Gay conduct was also illegal in several states many years age. Segregation was legal, slavery, many other behaviors we now have illegal. Legal or illegal takes an arbitrary winding path it seems.
On our current trajectory as a society, how long before pedophile behavior is Legal?
Whether or not something is presently legal, used as a judgment such action's validity is not a sound basis for argument.
If we are to judge the pedophile as wrong there must be a basis for that claim.
Because it harms the child who is still physically, emotionally and psychologically developing.
Why is this wrong,? because we as a society value those attributes of childhood.
What if our society throws off those views on protecting children?
Then all manner of behavior against children would cease to be morally objectionable, and COULD become legal in time. (like selling aborted fetus body parts or partial borth abortion, oh wait we already do both of those)
This concept is abhorrent to consider (for most of us still I hope!)
But WHY?
Why is the concept of the pedophile conduct abhorrent to most of us?
Because we still have a the shattered remains of a moral filter or lens through which we view life from a concept of
"There are things which are right and things which are wrong."
Why ?
Where does this moral compass, filter, or lens come from?
In the Heart of Mankind?
Why?
Maybe John Adams can shed some light unto this dilemma
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
What does he mean by this?
Why does this matter?
We have thrown off the fetters of being a moral and religious people, in the most part. and now we coincidentally have many Constitutional issues arising before the courts, property rights vs. nondiscrimination in a realm of public accommodation, use of the body parts of aborted fetus, redefinition of the legal description of "marriage" etc.
The concept here is one of
MORAL ABSOLUTES
if we as a people, as a society, as a governing body, throw off the fetters of Moral Absolutes, then by all means we will have NO morals Whatsoever in time.
The current problem is we are straddling a fence; some vestiges remain of a former sense of moral absolutes exists within some of the society some of the time for some topics.
This creates all sorts of hypocrisy, dichotomy and results in the existence of all sorts of logical proof failures in the society.
For those who claim sodomy is only considered immoral in Leviticus have forgotten Paul’s letter to the Romans
From Chapter one we find
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”
And dear reader, this is what WE have become,
Fools who deny and despise God, and have entered into and approve of all sorts of abhorrent behavior.
As a nation, as a society, and as individual people.
People who will one day have to give account to their maker for their actions.
My heart struggles for the loss of our country.
We have forsaken God. He has every right to forsake us.
We read here on ZH and other sources that ISIS is a creation of the CIA or other ABC agencies of the US government, that we enabled, funded, directed the worst of the nastiest of Al-Qaida to become ISIS to go after the Syrian Asaad Regime, and instead the "blowback" includes ISIS storming into villages and Beheading Christian Children.
If you hate Christianity, you may applaud ISIS for this. And you can count yourself among those whom Paul writes about above.
Following is an old quote and I don’t know the source, but I have heard it said too many times recently:
"If God Does not judge America, he needs to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."
If there is no God, none whatsoever, then What determines right from wrong?
Is it Legal or illegal, at a certain location drawn on a map, at a certain time?
No.
If there is a God, and if God is True, if HE is Pure, Holy, Just, Righteous, (and all Powerful),
Then these attributes indicate, or even dictate that HE has a set of Moral Absolutes by which men should establish order, rule, and society.
If God is real, and we cast off the fetters of these Guidelines of Moral Absolutes,
We defy him.
If God is real and we defy him we invite his wrath upon us.
This is the lesson of Jonah. The People of Nineveh were a nasty evil immoral Society.
Jonah fled God because he did not want to preach repentance to the Ninevites.
But when Jonah was eventually convinced by God to return to complete the task, the Ninevites received the rebuke of God and repented of all their sin, and evil ways.
God spared this nation his wrath because they turned back to him.
You don’t have to believe any of this about God. You don’t. Some of you will rant against it and down vote me. So be it.
But even a casual student of history can see the trajectory we are on parallels the decline and fall of many great empires, Rome, who Paul wrote this letter to around 70 AD, is just one example. The Roman society, nation and people fell into great immorality, they lost their place of greatness, in a very violent end, just a few generations after.
It is my prayer we, as a people, a nation as a society are reached by God in a similar way and turn back to him before it’s too late for us.
Speaking which It is late, sorry for many typos.
I miss America
Bigotry is not an a ppropriate word to describe the bakers - unless you are a simple minded twit.
Your point is what? I have the right to refuse service. Get bent if you don't like that. Turn it around and you don't have the right to refuse me when I demand you do something.
tallest skil, exactly. Also as baker what you are doing is really the work of an artist type profession and you shouldn't have to make something for someone that is against you beliefs. Is no different then Christian sculpture being asked to make a statue of pagen god for someone and them refusing on religious beliefs. What the clueless one juangrande above is asking it biogtry by forcing the baker into service against his beliefs.
You don't have the right to refuse service based on race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, etc. There are laws against this behavior. When did you stop being accountable to the law?
I have the right. The statue is unlawful. The state may have the power to enforce it but they do not have the right. See if you can grok the doifference.
Whether this baker is a bigot or not, it's his bakery. And he shouldn't have the government demanding that he do business with someone. It's just more government intervention we don't need.
Set the markets free! If enough customers get pissed off at the bigot baker, he'll go out of business. Why must government mettle in every area of our lives? Damn government...
Sorry, got carried away there imagining that this trend could actually be reversed and we could regain some liberties and a few market freedoms. Silly me.
Social justice warriors are not welcome here, as you should be able to discern from your vote tally. I added a red, for the record.
juangrande Well no, I didn't. Nor did anyone else here. Or for that matter anyone who printed the new testament. But if these plebs need to back Jesus, I'm saying give me a 2000 yr. old quote!
-----
That is a false argument. Jesus also didn't mention or talk directly about many things considered sins today. Does that make those things okay just because there is no quote from Jesus?
If you're a proclaimed Christian, then yes! What else is the basis?
Literally learn anyhting whatosever about what Christianity is.
In your case,I could speak to literacy, but doesn't it make sense that Christians should follow the word ( quotes) of Jesus?
The entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, not only Jesus' quotations. And the Gospels are not an exhausive record of every word that Jesus uttered, or deed that he performed.
"Jesus performed many other signs as well--signs not recorded here--in the presence of his disciples. But these have been recorded to help you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, so that through this faith you may have life in his name."
John 20:30-31
So it's OK to "put words in Jesus' mouth"? I've had more meaningful arguments with my dog!
Since when did ZeroHedge started to attract Jesus Freaks?
And what happened to all the economic news and bloomberg screenshots?
Things have changed greatly while you were away writing!
Yep,did anyone actually read the article.... I'm going away again - five and half years later and this place as not changed for the better. Then again I do not get Twatter so I guess I'm just 'past my use by date'.
Bye...
" Jesus hates fags." said the sticker on the pickup's rear end.
Every time I think I read ZH because of the educated and intelligent people who comment here, along comes an article like this. A veritable tidal wave of hatred and ignorance, like a scene from World War Z.
Where do you see hatred in the article?
Oh no, Jesus freaks would be against progressive assclown government worship rules. Heaven forbid!
Pun intended.
Grimaldus
This seems a simple matter to me, if you open your doors to the public, in America, you have to serve the public, if someone orders a Wedding Cake with two male figures on it, or two female figures on it, make it for them, you are a 'Bakery' for Christ's sake, save your sermonizing for another venue, if you can't run your bakery in compliance with the law, close the bakery and do something else!
Did you read the article you state worshipping cunt?
It seems simple because you are an idiot. What right do you have to tell me who I must serve? Noodle that one you bootlicker.
If you live in China, go straight to jail, do not collect 200.
There's plenty of things that Jesus didn't talk to directly. But Jesus did say:
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."
God told us a lot about his character and what he hates and what he loves. Justice, mercy, peace, thankfulness, these things God loves. Homosexuality, like other sins, are a curse for on man for our own shame, as the prophets taught. We no longer live under the rituals and rites of the Old testament, because Jesus is our permanent santification, but Jesus' coming or his teachings changed nothing about the character of God or what he hates and loves.
Ahhhh - Ha, Ha Ha,
I couldn't even finish reading this little missive before I just burst out laughing.
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
OK. Let's go thru the Old Testament and see where we are. Do you eat pork? If your son or daughter commits adultry, will you kill them? Likewise, for the non obedient wife? Yeah, 3000 yr. old and dubious rules should supercede common decency.
Jesus came not to condemn, but to save us. He died for our sins, so that we might have eternal life in Him. He preached repentance and forgiveness. A repentant adulterer was to be forgiven, not stoned. Jesus taught us that we are ALL sinners before God, and to "judge not, lest ye be judged". However, he did not say adultery was not a SIN! He said "Go and sin no more."
Alright. Let's start with " judge not lest ye be judged". I like that one. Soooo?
And adultery, is to my understanding, involves breaking a covenant with someone.
What's your point? In Jesus time, "judging" meant punishing someone. We can still recognize what is a sin, and point that out to someone in order to help them. Jesus was against hypocrisy and cruelty. Jesus was saying that we should be quick to show mercy and kindness --and forgive our debtors, so that we may be forgiven by God.
Interpretation? So you knew and spoke with him personally? I was questioned earlier in the thread for the same reasons.
Jesus, supposedly, embraced Mary Magdalena, the prostitute. Back in the day, that was the equivalent of a gay person ( actually worse), pariah. What did he have to say ( quotes only) about her.
Mary was repentful, as in very upset and remorseful for her sins. The point was that God forgives even very serious sins, not that he condones them.
Jesus did the best he could as a bastard out of wedlock child.
Zerohedge means it doesn't matter whether God exist or not because afterlife doesn't matter.
It's not clear Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. In Luke 8:2, she is call the woman "from whom seven devils had gone out". Whatever her sins, she was clearly REPENTANT and was FORGIVEN by Jesus. She did not persist in her old sinful ways while following Jesus. ANY sin can be forgiven, but the sinner's HEART must be changed so they love God and truly desire (with the grace of God) to stop sinning.
Did Jesus condemn her and call her a human aberration?
Again, I want quotes!
I'm with you bro. Good to hear the Christian perspective.
Keep your mental illness to yourself, you braindead sack of garbage. Homosexuality is not accepted in ANY society–Christian, Muslim, secular Roman, European pagan, etc.–because anyone intelligent recognizes it as the MENTAL ILLNESS and THREAT TO HEALTH that it is.
Bingo!!!!
The world of psychiatry had it right until they changed their official stance.
The biological function of sex is procreation. That can only happen when a male and female engage in sexual activity (for human species).
It is a simple logical conclusion that anyone homosexual is defective. A mental flaw. Does not mean that they
cannot function in society but stop trying to convince everyone that it is normal.
It is not.
So any sexual activity that occurs not for purpose of procreation is therefore the symptom of a mental flaw. Thank you for clarifying. Hope you dont ever pull out, or we will have to drug your ass up. With my cock of course.
Religions (and governments) wants everyone to procreate to create a massive population at the base of the ponzi pyramid. So they limit sex to procreation.
Gays do have a medical condition of malfunctioning hypothalamus. As a fetus, their gender for the brain was defined differently than gender for sexual organs which develop later in development.
Laws can forbid marriage since it is a man made concept, but no law can forbid love.
Gays will be used for political pawnship. For example, gay marriage will be passed in cities and states least conducive for raising families in order to attract more populations to pay rent to landowners: ie. San francisco and New York City. A Pyrrhic victory
Gays also deserve some blame. People don't hate gay marriage, but damn gays can be catty and obnoxious with their extreme status & attention seeking behavior. ie. parades.
Ironically, old gays need redneck hetero's kids to pay into social security/medicare ponzi.
Ah yes "redneck", the never questioned racial epithet hurled towards a group of whites who are quite possibly a great deal more polite than you are. It is acceptable to say "redneck" but not "nigger". Why?
At one time, a women who had an orgasm or enjoyed sex was considered deviant by the "psych profession". But I can see where mysogyny and homophobia could go hand in hand. Not literally, that would be so GAY!
At one time, humans clubbed each other for food, so everything we can discredit everything humans have achieved.
Do you have a quote from Jesus about this sin? Jesus was about love everyone unconditionally. THE MAIN MESSAGE!
Jesus is the Creator GOD and author of all Scripture. So, yes, there are...
Are you dain bramaged? Quotes, my man, extremely dubious quotes is what I ask for! Jesus did not PRINT the new testament. Best guesses are the first print was around 100 yrs after Jesus was killed. And it is pure speculation that he ever existed, at least in the Biblical sense. But, the message put forth by the tale is consistent with all other supposed prophets, which to me, gives it some validity. But condemning gay people is not a part of the tale. Pure fabrication!
Your post is incorrect. The New Testament letters from Paul were written just a few years later. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were the Apostles of Jesus, living eyewitnesses.
Proof? And how many editors, do you suppose, there were before King James?
The thing about the Bible, in order to be accepted as absolute by a sane person, is that it's veracity and authenticity need to be absolute, as well. Proof?
Nothing I say will convince you, so go about your business. I'm not here to save unbelievers.
"And if anyone will not welcome you or refuses to listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet..." (Matthew 10:14 NIV)
I'm pretty sure Jim Jones said something similar.
Hmmm. And the democrat party has advocated slavery it's entire existence and most certainly has been utterly racist it's entire existence. You're CLEARLY a low info demcorat. Good to know you're a racist slaver.
You are not saved yourself if you are Protestant.
You have to take this on faith, which is always what you ask of others, but I am aware of and have had the experience of Christ consciousness. In my mind, thru my awareness, I know hatred and bigotry exist only in a dark, fearful heart.
I bet you could find a quote from Jesus that echos that sentiment.
If you do not mind, I want to give my impression of this new trend toward preferring the company of same sex individuals that includes sexual activity. You are defending this so fiercely, it touches my heart. Though you may consider it normal and certainly not a sin if both parties agree, there are psychosocial issues which may contribute more than physiological (hormones). Think of a newborn baby, juangrande, in the arms of a not-so-perfect mother or a father who may not known without an example the boundaries. Raising a baby requires skills or the experience of grandma, who moves in to help the couple and their a newborn baby, whatever the sex.
Modern civilization has seen us move away from family and we are on our own. Once, there was no class, no TV show, no book.
Imagine the intimate contact of a parent in the privacy of their homes with this new person in the house, their baby. Diaper changes, feedings, baths, sleepy bye time, cuddles. Imagine mother and dad have issues and if you think that is impossible, Jerry Springer, Oprah and the rest of the "Let me cash in on your misfortune" gave us an idea of the type of people out there, alone in the house with young babies and children. When an infant is born to damaged psyche parennts, or jaded/scarred/previously exploited parent, the effort to do what the movies show is made, but more than likely, when stress arrives, knee jerk reactions result, we go on Auto Pilot when the circuits are overloads, repeating the past, Monkey-see and Monkey-do.
Boundaries could be crossed in easily imaginable ways. As a baby/infant/toddler, how would you respond to ensure that this invasion of Temple ceases? You do not know it is wrong but you see that the adult you are faced with has the wild eyes, pace has picked up, heart beating a bit faster...no one else is in the room. As a baby, you would feel unsafe. Feeling unsafe as a baby is the equivalent to our life being threatened, they are our food supply. The adults drawn to where the children are, boy scout leaders, day care providers, the sexual deviants/social rejects who hide under a religious robe would be devastating but the safety of running back home and telling would be at least a possible solution to our dilemma, even if just a fantasy we cling to in order to withstand the exploitation of our extremely vulnerable state, mentally, physically and intellectually.
What would you do is you would acquire the traits that would be a deterrent to this happening. If mommy becomes repulsed or fascinated by our diaper changes, if daddy gives us horsey rides that he enjoys more than we do, or uncle Bruce's tickles don't make us laugh, and all the other more gritty and indecent interactions that can occur between a child and an adult who considered young ones "game." Here is what I would do - Eat myself until I was a side show and nothing more. Or
Acquire the traits of the opposite sex. Being a tom boy rough and tough, allowed to be mean and say no, or a gentle little boy-girl who hangs out with the girls where softer side of life can be found. The adult who is focused on us beyond our protection and well being (to engage us in adult interaction through play activity) would respond accordingly. Their response would be a pulling back. Oh, you may say, "impossible." I was born this way! Stats are there. Ten out of one hundred children engage in sexual act with an adult before the age of 10. 6 of these 10 are boys. There is a high price society pays for not protecting the children from sexual predators.
Today, sexual predators of children are on every block and the chance of having one in the family may even have risen. But it would not even need to require the actual act. It can be "lingering" too long in a look, with the lust visible in the eyes, proximity and caresses that stimulate, verbal signals of positive or negative.
There are other outcomes besides going to the same sex for companionship and sexual gratification. Promiscuity, drugs, alcoholism (activity to bury the anger) but this is one aspect which I believe is worthy of consideration. Dysfunctional only begins to describe our society today. The kids have been raised by daycare and schools as well, left without the safety of the "unconditional love." Children who are living under stress of a haywire family unit have no choice but to do whatever is required so that they are "in charge." And decisions are made with very little information and in secrecy. Easiest solution is to become a man like daddy. we won't make him mad at us, and we will not be faced with his scorn. A stimulating mother (nudity, baths together, exploring baby's body a little too thoroughly, taking an unusual interest in their appearance, giving no privacy, insisting on open doors, sexualy activity between adults in same room as baby or toddler. Sexual exploitation does not require a bed. A couple of minutes, you may think what harm can it do? The fascination beyond normal of a child by their parent is 24/7. It's in the eyes. In their questions. Being alone with them is are biggest fear. When we are not with them, we know where they are, what time they will be home, and stalking for the moment of privacy alone with us is what they are waiting. What a fucking nightmare.
Destroying the family and turning us all into Coping and Continuously Search adults with these thoughts governing most of our free time. An infant/toddler/child that has been sent into Protection Mode results in the neglected milestone called Identity Crisis which is 16-21 or there abouts, which should propel us to activities which soothe us of this state of anxiety, and this is how we find our strengths. A hobby that we practice and becomes a skill, or activity which we master excels us to be identified by it. The state of mind of the young person who has been introduced to the adult world of sexuality, however, defines themselves by the sexuality in my observation.
Sex industry is thriving. Sale of sexual performance drugs is also off the charts. It has become the #1 pass time. Maybe you have not noticed, but Our society is sick and it was not by accident. But at this point in time, considering everything we have around us, for the gay people to sign their name on the dotted line and agree to be labeled "A homosexual" may be your ticket for a train ride. Golden 1920s in Germany had the same theme, "come out of the closet and indulge." It did not end well. Of teh 100,000 gay men, 3,000 were said to have survived the camps. There were brutally raped and I do not mean Sub-Dom, where being mean seems to be part of the act.
Take a minute and think about what the motives to see a small fraction of the world's population stand center stage and define ourselves by what we do in the bedroom, a couple minutes a day. Wearing it as a badge. Demanding to be respected for it and accepted by everyone without argument. Dangerous endeavor. In my observations, deviant sexual behavior is always the result of an event that resulted for childhood sexual exploitation and most of my friends who are gay are alone or dead. Alcoholics and drug addicts, reckless promiscuity, physical alterations, lost jobs, lost homes, alienated family members. The wealthier class and more educated may have created their dream world of Man + Man or Woman + Woman is our destiny but after a few hours of deep discussion, you find they are as confused by their preference as a heterosexual and attempting to justify it becomes their Full Time Job.
An healthy intact family is the foundation of a solid sound-minded individual. We learn from example during our most influential years, and if we are left unsafe before the Age of Reason, and a child sexual predator interferes without our growth and development, a wrench is thrown into the works.
Epic post. I enjoyed reading it.
***********************************
Take a minute and think about what the motives to see a small fraction of the world's population stand center stage and define ourselves by what we do in the bedroom, a couple minutes a day. Wearing it as a badge. Demanding to be respected for it and accepted by everyone without argument. Dangerous endeavor. In my observations, deviant sexual behavior is always the result of an event that resulted for childhood sexual exploitation and most of my friends who are gay are alone or dead. Alcoholics and drug addicts, reckless promiscuity, physical alterations, lost jobs, lost homes, alienated family members. The wealthier class and more educated may have created their dream world of Man + Man or Woman + Woman is our destiny but after a few hours of deep discussion, you find they are as confused by their preference as a heterosexual and attempting to justify it becomes their Full Time Job.
An healthy intact family is the foundation of a solid sound-minded individual. We learn from example during our most influential years, and if we are left unsafe before the Age of Reason, and a child sexual predator interferes without our growth and development, a wrench is thrown into the works.
*************************************
Your conclusion should be distributed everywhere because it's balls on accuate.
Yes; "Thou shall not lay pipe in my front yard, complete with the occasional reach-around"
Ah. That would be the Biggus Dickussss 4:20. I'm familiar....
Well...Jesus did not say it...it comes from the old testiment. Here... Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. First, Thou shalt not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination. Second, If a man lie with a man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
And some say that since Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we no longer live by the curse of the old law. The words are pretty clear to me...you can spin it any way you want...just saying. I am not here to argue religion...just to point out what the Bible says.
The old testament says many other ( really ridiculous) things as well. Which one's apply? By whose decree?
Some clergymen argue in favor of homosexuality, claiming that Jesus never spoke against it. But is that really so? Jesus Christ declared that God’s Word is truth. (John 17:17) That means that he endorsed God’s view of homosexuality as described at Leviticus 18:22, which reads: “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.” Moreover, Jesus listed fornication and adultery among the “wicked things [that] issue forth from within and defile a man.” (Mark 7:21-23) The Greek word for fornication is a broader term than that for adultery. It describes all forms of sexual relations outside lawful marriage, including homosexuality. (Jude 7) Jesus Christ also warned his followers not to tolerate any professed Christian teacher who minimizes the seriousness of fornication.—Revelation 1:1; 2:14, 20.
When religious leaders campaign for the ordination of homosexuals and Lesbians, what effect does this have on members of their churches, especially the young people? Is it not an inducement to experiment with sex outside marriage? In contrast, God’s Word urges Christians to “flee from fornication.” (1 Corinthians 6:18) If a fellow believer falls into such sin, loving help is given with a view to restoring the person to God’s favor. (James 5:16, 19, 20) What if this help is rejected? The Bible states that unless such ones repent, they ‘will not inherit God’s kingdom.’—1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.
Just saying . . .
The apsotle Paul had even sharper words . .
I dont lay the same way with men. I put it in their ass. with women it just goes in their ear. So, I guess I haven't sinned.
Oh wait - interpretation is everything. Retard.
I have a direct Bible quote for you on this.
Jesus Christ never condemned anyone.
BUT he also never justified sin for anyone either.
Actually Jesus Christ said he came to bring a sword NOT love to everyone unconditionally.
the sin of adultery is similar to homosexuality because both are sexual sin...
read here:
John 8:11
She said no man Lord. And Jesus said to her neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.
scripture is clear. no condemnation to a homosexual. but no justification of homosexuality. Go and sin no more.
Thank you for the effort, truly. But that short quote doesn't seem to apply to two men.
Admittedly, I'm no biblical scholar. But I've listened to some who can quote up and down. They purport there is nothing in the New Testament addressing homosexuality.
In my own practice, the greatest hindrance to knowing Christ consciousness is judging. Judging any and all experience. I am quite convinced that fear and hatred are a symptom of lack of love. Love ( not the romantic, stereotyped, dysfunctional relationship kind) that which many great people have spoken, is a light, both luminant and weightless, which melts away the "sins" of fear and insecurity.
That's my testament, which I KNOW yet have no belief about.