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Court To Bakery Owners: You Have No Property Rights
Submitted by Ryan McMaken via The Mises Institute,
The Colorado Appeals Court ruled that the owners of a bakery do not have any right to control their property, and that they shall be forced to provide bakery services to a couple that the owner would rather not do business with. In other words, they have no property rights. The court writes:
Masterpiece remains free to continue espousing its religious beliefs, including its opposition to same-sex marriage. However, if it wishes to operate as a public accommodation and conduct business within the State of Colorado, CADA prohibits it from picking and choosing customers based on their sexual orientation.
These sorts of rulings essentially rewrite the very nature of commerce and our whole concept of contracts. A business agreement (i.e., a contract) is based on two parties agreeing to a voluntary relationship. This is the foundation not only of business relationships, but of the relationship between citizens and states themselves. This is why "social contract" theory is so popular among theorists. Everyone recognizes that coerced relationships are inherently unjust, which is why defenders of the modern state system claim that states derive their legitimacy from a "social contract" in which both parties agree to the relationship.
Without this contract into which both parties have presumably entered voluntarily, the relationship is unjust and a violation of basic human rights. But that all just goes out the window, apparently, when we're talking about discrimination. With court decisions like these, the court is saying that we can have contracts in which one only side agrees to it. But let's just call this what it is: seizure of one of the party's private property.
Moreover, in an attempt to muddy the waters further, we're being told that this case is about religion. Ultimately, though, cases like these are really about nothing more than the simple right to control one's private property:
In practice, the decision to exclude is always based on some type of discrimination. The type of discrimination can run the gamut from “you’re banned from my store because you groped customers” to “I don’t serve your (racial) kind.” In everyday life, the merchant, salesman, clerk, or owner of any kind must — because time is scarce — make constant discriminatory decisions as to whether or not he will do business with client A or client B. Indeed, every single economic act requires this sort of discrimination. A person may prefer to do business with more attractive people, or people who are friendlier. Or he may wish to work only with his co-religionists or citizens of his own nation-state. On a fundamental level, everyone knows this is the case, but many accept that it is the legitimate role of the state to decide which types of discrimination are acceptable and which are not. Hence, discrimination against unattractive people remains acceptable. Discrimination against certain racial groups is not.
Regardless of what groups end up being favored, the effect of any anti-discrimination law is to curtail the freedom of the owner and to increase the size and scope of government’s coercive power over the lives and livelihoods of property owners. Moreover, since anti-discrimination law is heavily dependent on proving intent and motivation, such regulation also puts the government in the position of investigating the thoughts and opinions of owners. Sometimes, owners make this easy for regulators by stating their motivations outright, but in other cases, private owners are investigated and inferences are made as to the feelings and views of owners. This is necessary because, since every business transaction requires some sort of discrimination, the mere act of not entering into a business transaction is not sufficient to prove not-government-approved discrimination.
And even from a consequentialist angle, there is no real "cost" on the party being refused service. In this case, the refused party merely needs to drive down the road to one of dozens of similar bakeries in the Denver metropolitan area. But even if there were no other bakery in town (which is untrue of any community but the tiniest) the answer to this is to encourage more commercial freedom. Restricting commercial freedom merely produced the opposite effect of producing fewer bakeries:
Thus, those who wish to lessen the negative effects of discrimination on consumers ought to concentrate on expanding the economic options for those who face discrimination. This is done through deregulation of industry and the elimination of corporate welfare and other anti-market programs and regulations that favor incumbent and semi-monopolist firms. Unfortunately, however, those who favor regulation of discrimination also tend to favor government regulation in general, including wage rates, employment practices, lending practices, food “purity,” and nearly everything else, in spite of the fact that the sum effect of such regulations is to prevent the entry of new firms into the market place while protecting the standing of large politically-powerful firms. The result is fewer merchants, fewer firms, fewer jobs, and more monopoly power which leads precisely to the negative discrimination-imposed burdens that the pro-regulation lobby claims to be fighting against.
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Under this ruling, a gay man who likes anal sex and, not finding an available anally inclined man, could force a prostitute who does (anal for straight guys but not gay guys), to do anal. FIFY
That is much more comparable.
When you're in the business of selling baked goods, refusing to sell baked goods sounds like a poor business model. But, I think they should be able to run their shitty business however they want.
I'm going to be screamingly politically incorrect but technically correct here in stating that property rights in the USA went out the window with Lincoln.
Please explain how that statement is technically correct.
Slaves were property by law.
The lawful way to free the slaves under the Constitution would have been to compensate the owners of those slaves for the monetary value of the government's takings as in eminent domain, rather than forcing them to relinquish their property at gunpoint.
The precedent was thus set that the law be damned if the government wanted to take your property, they would take it without compensation and kill you if you objected.
"Possession is 9/10 of the law" for this reason: "Adverse possession arises where a person in physical occupation of property (‘the squatter’) occupies that property in a manner inconsistent with the title of the legal owner. In order to claim “squatters rights” the person must have occupied the property for 12 years or more."
https://richardkennedysolicitors.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/nine-tenths-of...
Especially considering the hidden agenda, hidden due to one fact - It is so absurd that if the people knew, those who devised this plan would be a mere memory. The murder, manipulation, lies, tax dollars financing it all. the people would be ripping arms and legs off the politicians and the bankers and it would not stop until everyone one of them is hunted down and held accountable for not allowing a nation of citizens to realize the truth in time to protect themselves from the consequences of statelessness. (No voice).
Would a bakery owed by a gay couple make a cake for an anti gay marriage rally. Guessing they would balk at that. And I woukd have no problem with it. It's amazing how people continue to piss away their rights in the name of "fairness".
Someone made a video of a gay man going into several Muslim bakeries and asking for a gay wedding cake to be made - all of them refused. No one was fined or otherwise harassed by the government.
I think we all know why those bakeries were not messed with.
It says they have to bake a cake..it does not say how good it has to be...so man I would use some disgusting ingredients...
Yeah, like try an injection of that new "Mr. Happy Secret Sauce"
If somebody refused to serve me because of my overgrown beard and uncut hair, I wouldn't think to run to a laywer or the courts, I'd say "fuck you faggot" and just leave.
Classy. And so mature.
Is that you Dutchy?
Nope. Never been to the Netherlands.
Signs, Signs, Everywhere there's signs!
No property rights? Slaves don't own property.....read #14 here:
http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-irs-is-not-a-us-government-agency-they-are-slave-handlers/
That's why you are listed as a TENANT on all property deeds in your name and why you pay rent (they call it "property taxes) or they kick you off their property.
Did John Roberts write this brief?
Would you just admit your gay, for once & for all John?... So the country can move on?
It's Okay if you like men. Just don't become a Thirteenth-Fifteenth Century English Pedofile.
You're better than that John. You have O' Bungler care as your legacy.
These religious nut jobs like to claim that homosexuality is a choice. To which I ask in return, "So you were born into the religion you follow?"
The only people that can honestly reply in the affirmative are Jews, but even they can renounce their religion.
These things called freedom and liberty can prove to be messy. Just like a raucous threesome.
Fuck you. You know nothing. I can prove it.
1. ALL behavior is a choice. No exceptions.
2. I was born gay. I CHOSE to be straight. No one made me, no one pressured me, heck only a few people knew I was gay. I decided I'd be happier if I were straight and I am. My choice. The choice of everyone, regardless of their orientation.
You're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about.
40% of gay men say they were molested by older homosexuals when they were little boys, and a high percentage of this subset goes on to be future molesters when they grow up. That's why they are usually permanently damaged. They're former Jerry Sandusky kids.
Only 4% of heterosexual men say they were molested but that's still 6 million little boys molested. Developmental brain and abnormal sexual orientation occurs but just because someone finds themselves attracted to the same sex when they hit puberty doesn't mean it is any more 'normal" than a baby born with frog arms (lack of upper limb bud development).
And by the way, Jew is short for 'Judaism' (duh) which is a voluntary religion, by choice, which Sammy Davis Jr. (a black guy) and Madonna (to name a few) chose to voluntarily adopt as their religion, as can anybody else. 'Semite' is the term that refers to the race of indigenous Old Testament people from historic geography known today as Israel.
Wow !
what a bunch of racists posting at ZH.
Stores should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, or sex.
Not where they sit at the counter,
not what food they can buy,
not what price they have to pay.
This place has been overrun by fascists and anarchists - who, I've learned, have much in common - for quite some time now.
Yet customers can discriminate by choosing which store to shop at. Kinda one sided, doncha think?
Well, urine idiot and a fascist bigot. And 'racist' doesn't even mean what you seem to think it means.
You really want diversity? Then go to a Christian bakery and soak it up, enjoy and respect all the people different than you, and then leave them the fuck alone to live their lives as they see fit. Christians aren't marching into gay bars for prayer meetings -- they'd be thrown out! Queer bigots are purposely targeting Christians for discrimination and harrassment and they also need to be thrown if they go against the house rules.
One of the funniest,weirdest things I ever saw;
I'm in a barber shop. One man show, in a town of 2000. We're talking Mayberry type place here. Like Floyd's. The proprietor, about 47 or so at the time ( he's gone now) could give an awesome haircut and neck scrape. And he wasn't gentle. Bang that chair, yank you head into position. It was great. Talk man to man crap ( unless a Mom was in with there kid, in which case he would eye fuck her until she left. My wife was a favorite) but he was polite, until they left.
So I'm waiting my turn, and a gal named Butch walks in, sits down.
He says " can I help ya?" I want a haircut. I don't do women. But I want a cut just like his. Lady, I don't do women, so leave. But. But . LADY!!! Get the fuck out!
She left. My eyes where like pie plates.
And he just mumbled something about hardheaded and dyke.
Did. Not. Want. Her. Money. Or . Business. Period.
A simple solution for the cake maker is to outsource the actual cake making to another bakery that has no problem with gays. They then sell this cake with a appropriate mark up to be delivered to the party or picked up at the other store. Solved.
Good point. These things usually do not boil over until both the bakery and the wedding couple decide to make an issue out of it. One or both open their mouths and start shouting about principles and laws and religion. Keep quiet, keep your bakery, keep their money, and give the job to another bakery.
Exactly.
And those Germans that didn't want to kill Jews should have just hired someone else to kill them. Problem solved!
I mean, just because you think supporting something is immoral and/or bad for society and/or a sin and/or bad for whatever reason you might have, as you long as you "keep your hands clean" by paying someone else to do it, it's all cool!
And I'm sure all the religious types would agree that God will be fooled by such deception - I mean, that dude's a total know-nothing see-nothing sucker who couldn't possibly understand even such a simple transaction, so there's no risk of them being judged a sinner for their participation in other people's depravity as long as they use a middleman.
Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville
(slave / herd mentality)
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell, Animal Farm
(master mentality)
A few jalapeno peppers baked in the mix would make sure that future fags would think twice about asking for their wedding cake from this baker. Just saying that sometimes you can accidentally get a bad batch of ingredients.
If you're gonna go to such lengths, maybe you should find another line of work...just sayin'. Maybe WalMart greeter, then you can tell them you refuse to greet gay people, because Jesus and all...I'm sure they will understand, and go out of their way to preserve your religious rights...
I just KNEW there were going to be idiotic comments as soon as I saw the headline.
Seriously, get the fuck OVER yourselves! You little "Christian" hothouse flowers are just too SENSITIVE for this world, aren't you?
As if there weren't enough REAL issues to be concerned about than who someone might be sleeping with. I'm certain some of your own bedroom practices would make a lot of us sick, but we have the sense, and decency, to leave it alone.
Do the same, and stop crying about your butt-hurt over having to deal with people you don't like...WAAAAHHH! Welcome to the real world, you self-righteous whining crybaby sacks of shit!
But I thought it was the little queers who were upset at not getting their cake hand made by breeders. I understand they are not used to hearing the word NO, but really.
Yeah, what the hell, let's just let everyone discriminate. Let's start with any minority we don't like, and stick it to 'em!
Bigots are bigots, whether they run bakeries or wear pointy white hats.
Or bags on their heads...
Yeah. What the hell. Let's have a low level government functionary with an axe to grind fine small businesses without due process because someone makes a claim that can't be proven or challenged. Let's pretend like this isn't going to be a terrible idea and isn't using the government to extort money from small businesses.
Or perhaps bigots will be bigots whether they let you know it or not.
I agree, let's play the race and political correctness card, and cower all those with different perspectives into behaving the way WE think they should. Eventually they, if not their impressionable children, will come around to the way WE think. After al, we are righteous in all we think and do.
Hmmm, it obviously never occured to you that the ability to discriminate is a central element of freedom, and that applies whether some other self-absorbed nutter considers you a bigot or not.
There is a clear difference between requiring the state, which has a legal monopoly on force, to treat everyone equally and requiring individuals who have control over only their own assets and person to do so.
The founders insightfully recognized the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as not being in the power of the state to either give or refuse. They did not mention the right to have the state force someone to bake a cake for you.
Many only seem to respect freedom when it is expressed in consensus with their own views.
Do not feel FREE to disagree.
Spit cake.
Just make the cake with a special "frosty" "icing" on top. It will be appreciated (at least if it's 2 gay dudes).
If you're forced to compromise your values and convictions, just charge accordingly.
These kinds of absurd rulings will cause more small businesses to re-invent themselves as private "clubs". And as private clubs, by definition, they are not places of "public accommodation". Also, the balancing of the equities is out of whack here. The purpose of barring "public accommodation" discrimination, was originally so racists could not refuse to rent hotel rooms or serve meals to Blacks. But a wedding cake - for an off-in-the-future event, does not rise to the same level of urgency that eating a meal today does. So forcing cooperation on that, at the expense of religious freedom, is absurd.
If I were the baker, I would take the money and then, never bake the cake. When the customer complains, I would refund the money. When they ask why the cake did not get made, I would point them to the fine print which would say this:
"By ordering a cake, the buyer assumes the risk that the cake might not get completed on time (or ever). The reason for this is that the baker is a devout Christian who, from time to time, gets sad about the SIN in the world and, upon seeing additional SIN, sometimes gets too sad to bake a cake for the persons(s) causing his sadness by displaying SIN. Please be advised that if, as a customer, you bring any evidence of SIN (as typically understood by Conservative, Bible-believing Christians) into this bakery; more likely than not, you will make this baker sad and that sadness will delay your cake, perhaps indefinitely. Only Jesus had to die on the cross, not this baker. That being so, I prefer to avoid sadness and I turn it over to God in prayer. When He gives me joy and/or, at minimum, lifts any various sadness from me, I proceed to bake - but not until. That being so, if you do not want to bear the risk of your cake not being ready for your event, you agree to not order any cake from me."
Why is this even a news article. The issue was raised and disposed of in the 1960s. It is no more or less deplorable now than it was then.
Yes, I know the feeling. In California if you own property and your tenant decides that he doesn't have to move it's pretty much true.
When I was younger and hiking a lot I read a biography of John Muir and he had a similar view as native Americans about property and land ownership. I think he once said, (more or less), "Man doesn't own the land the land owns the man". He said that after the family of his better half encouraged him to settle down on a farm and go to "work" in Northern California.
The older I get the more sense it makes.
Yeah well the last gay that I actually noticed was this asshole playing with his dick in plain sight in a truck stop restroom and looking at everyone who walked in the door. Do all gays have the brain of a house fly?
Was this article posted just to show what kind of retarded comments they could get out of ZH readers?
"Hey look, would you believe some of the shit their writing "
While I see that major crimes are going up in this country it seems to me that most of it is misdirected. Come on people - focus on the ones that really fucked up your life - not some low life scum bag. Go after the big boys - you know - bankers politicians, judges - the usual bastards that are the ruination of everything we hold dear.
You're right.
Personal freedoms are irrelevant.
How do you propose to stop these "big boys" when we can't even refuse service to others? It should be obvious that we are powerless.
WE DO WHAT WE ARE TOLD or else...
nothing new here....english or ulster british common law discovered this several months ago here:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2015/05/ireland-religion-and-gay-...
the rule is...if you trade with the public...you are a servant and anyone that comesthrough your door has the same rights as anyone else....plus there are sick fucks who want to prove that point..welcome to democratic politics and ..get a dog
if you had open a business as some sort of club (like for centrla bankers and such) you have memberhsip, rather than the public at large that you serve
i am offended that anyone can tell me who i couldnt sell my stuff to...its my stuff..but the law says, if you put your stuff in the public domain...it is public and accessible to all without prejudice...
nothing on price if a price results in shortage..ad the next guy is a gay one legged lesbian whale who demands the same price as a straight two legged squid..but the law has always been an ass ..and justice blind...yadde yadda ya da...
dont be precious..if you are an ugly tart ..dont be fussy about the coq sportif..you lay yousrelf open to be umm..whats the word?
oh..and by the way...all advertising is BEGGING and also offensive :)
TIME FOR A JOKE:
Gay fellow goes to the doctor complaining of a pain in his rectum.
Doctor puts on a glove, inserts the middle finger up his back passage and asks if he is in pain.
They gay fellow looking quite calm replies "No."
He then inserts his whole hand and asks the question again.
The gay fellow with a gentle grin answers "No" once again.
The doctor then pushes his arm up this fellow's passage all the way to his arm pit.
The doctor asks, "how do you feel now?"
Gay fellow starts crying and complaining of real pain.
The doctor pulls out his gloved hand and says: "Nothing to worry about. It's just your tonsils."
"A business agreement (i.e., a contract) is based on two parties agreeing to a voluntary relationship. This is the foundation not only of business relationships, but of the relationship between citizens and states themselves."
If good Christians really believe that, then how come they won't let me buy a prostitute? It's just business between two consenting adults.
Proverbs 7:
Warning Against the Strange Woman
7 My child, guard my sayings;
store my commandments with you.
2 Keep my commands and live,
and my teaching like the apple of your eye.[a]
3 Bind them on your fingers;
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Say to wisdom,[b] “you are my sister,”
and you shall call insight,[c] “intimate friend.”[d]
5 In order to guard yourself from an adulteress,[e]
from the foreigner who makes her words smooth.[f]
6 For at the window of my house,
through my lattice, I looked down.
7 And I saw among the simple,
I observed among the youth,
a young man lacking sense,[g]
8 passing on the street at[h] her corner,
and he takes the road to her house,
9 at twilight, at the day’s evening,
in the midst of night and the darkness.
10 Then behold! A woman comes to meet him
with the garment of a prostitute[i] and a secret heart.[j]
11 She is loud and stubborn;
her feet do not stay at her house.
12 Now in the street, now in the square,
at[k] every corner she lies in wait.
13 She took hold of [l] him and kissed him.
Her face was impudent, and she said to him,
14 “Sacrifices of peace offerings are upon me;
today[m] I completed my vows.
15 So[n] I have come out to meet you,
to seek your face, and I have found you.
16 With coverings I have adorned my couch,
spreads of the linen of Egypt;
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh,
aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love making,
until the morning let us delight in love.
19 For there is no man[o] in his home;
he has gone on a long journey.[p]
20 The bag of money he took in his hand,
for on the day of the full moon he will come home.”
21 She persuades him with the greatness of her teachings;
with her smooth lips she compels him.
22 He goes after her suddenly;
like an ox to the slaughter he goes,
and like a stag to the instruction of a fool,
23 until an arrow pierces his entrails,[q]
like a bird rushing into a snare,
but he does not know that it will cost him his life.[r]
Reiteration of the Warning Against a Strange Woman
24 And now, my children, listen to me,
and be attentive to the sayings of my mouth.
25 May your heart not turn aside to her ways;
do not stray into her path.
26 For many slain she has laid low,
and countless[s] are all of her killings.
27 The ways of Sheol[t] are her house,
descending to chambers of death.
lmao... FINE... then I guess I'll just make you a cake that taste like shit..
That's the best sort of resistance--passive. A sh*t cake.
It is what it is. But it's not liberty in any sense of the word. Stop fighting. Resist quiety, secretly, and passively. Secede mentally. You want a cake . .. whoops. I really meant to get it right on time to the wedding. Sorry I'm an hour late.
I can see a muncipality treating every business like they do taxis. You are open to the public and have to give the same serevice to everyone who walks through the door. Any person who takes a job that deals with general has to give the same service to every customer.
The baker didn't refuse to let gay people come into his store and buy cupcakes, bread, pies. They had been in his shop multiple times. He knew they were gay. He did not discriminate against them. When they told him they wanted a custom cake for the wedding, he said no thank you, here are others who will make you one.
As an artist I should get to decide what art I want to create. The Government needs to get bent if it thinks it can tell me I MUST create custom art for someone just because they want it. any transaction is voluntary not coerced.
You are exactly right. From pg. 20
"We reject Masterpiece’s related argument that its willingness to sell birthday cakes, cookies, and other non-wedding cake products to gay and lesbian customers establishes that it did not violate CADA. Masterpiece’s
potential compliance with CADA in this respect does not permit it to refuse services to Craig and Mullins that it otherwise offers to the general public."
The court held fast to the idea that anti-gay marriage is necessarily the same as discrimination against gays, even though the shop owner would sell them anything except a wedding cake. I'm not a lawyer... maybe the court made the right decision and Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act made them do it.
As an artist, I will not let the government tell me I MUST create art for any person who wants it.
What has out country come to?
Appalling.
property rights??? author is a moron
gubmint interference with private businesses is bs.
we cant tell dc what to do evidently so why should they have a right to tell a private owner what to do
This is basically like rape - forcing a person to do something with you or for you that you don't want to do.
You can donate to his crowdfunding campaing to fight these sodomites - it appears they like screwing all people in the poop chute.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/16/masterpiece-cakeshop-get...
When a baker is forced to do business with someone he does not want to do business or RISK LOSING HIS BUSINESS, then the simple solution is to create SUPER BAD PRODUCT for those they do not want to do business with.
TIPS ON HOW TO HANDLE Gay people at your bakery:
If you don't want to make cakes for Gay weddings, simply make a terrible cake. The Gay couple will not recommend you to other gay couples they know. Don't make it obvious or the Gay couple might sue you for "making a bad cake".
The government can't tell you how "nice" to be while waiting on them either. So, Just be a fucking asshole to them while you are providing "customer service" and they will likely not want you to make their cake.
I'm sure there are other things a person can do so unwelcome customers will leave.
If you are relgious, start preaching to them. With a smile on your face, of course. Government cannot intervene on that.
Baking a bad cake is a problem, because not only are many gay friends at the wedding, but many non-gay friends are too. Chances are your previous 'wonderful' cake for another wedding is what caused the gay couple to seek you out. In today's online review world, you do not need any bad reviews. I like the idea of over-pricing it better, so that they go somewhere else.
a bigot is
anyone who disagrees with a faggot
a faggot is
anyone who disagrees with their packaging
prep H frosting for the post wedding butt sores
White Christians have no rights in Bolshevik run USSA.
The homosexuals are not trying this with Muslim bakeries. The homosexuals smell the blood in the air of White Christians, and then all Whites. They know who it is safe to attack and who it is not.
Everything that happens is shown to the White people through the lens of the Televitz. The Tribe's media bosses put their angle on every thing, and since the attitudes of people change in order to stay in with the crowd, well that is how they do it.
"Matthew Shepard case, where we now find out that Shepard was a meth addict who was murdered as part of a drug heist; one of his murderers had a homosexual and drug-dealing relationship with Shepard. But that has made no difference to the narrative put out by the Matthew Shepard Foundation or the mainstream media, and the author of book with these revelations now finds himself besieged by hostility despite being gay, Latino, and politically liberal."
The Indoctrination Game, Part 2: Jewish media influence as decisive in creating a positive public culture of homosexuality
See also:
Jenji Kohan and the Jewish Hyper-Sexualization of Western Culture
It is unnatural to believe that 2 + 2 = 5. Equating homosexual unions as totally equal to heterosexual unions is unnatural. Homosexuality exists and is in a certain sense “normal,” but it isn’t the same as the ideal heterosexual union, and it’s evil to equate the two as “equally ideal.” Racial equality and race-mixing is unnatural (because if given the chance White men would not allow their females to be systematically and widespread poached by other races) But getting people to believe unnatural things, has preternatural powers. Getting people to go along with things they choke on—that’s power. Getting people to eat shit, and be afraid to complain about it—that’s POWER. That’s REAL POWER!
If you run a business like this and want to deny doing gay weddings or anything else against your beliefs - then you need to NOT have a price list or posted prices AND you need to have the applicants fill out an 'information' form with a little bitty clause on the bottom. If you meet the bride and groom, you offer a fair price. If you only meet the bride, you hand them the form where they have to fill in the full names of the bride and groom, provide a wedding date, and check a couple of boxes. If you see a bride-bride or groom-groom wedding that you don't want to do, then you offer a price several magnitudes higher than usual. And the clause basically states 'that if for any reason your bakery cannot do the cake, you reserve the right to contract it out to another bakery'. Then let them come - they pay four times your normal price and you give the work to someone else.
You would lose in court with that tactic. Having one price for straights and another for queers is defacto discrimination in the eyes of most courts, and you would not only lose, you would be liable for damages {big$}.
Well you can't choose not to do business with blacks, why should you be able to chose not to do business with homosexuals? Neither are a choice so stop being an asshole or close down - idiot.
So....the courts finally admit the government operates on unilateral foisted agreements.
I need only serve a contract upon a party and if there is no response from the aforementioned party then it is agreed we have a deal.
GREAT!!....I LOVE IT!!
So....the courts finally admit the government operates on unilateral foisted agreements.
I need only serve a contract upon a party and if there is no response from the aforementioned party then it is agreed we have a deal.
GREAT!!....I LOVE IT!!
Oh shut up asswipe! If you want to run a church, then run a church. No one will stop you...have whatever requirements and beliefs you want...
You want to operate your business in 'the commons', where you might encounter customers your church wouldn't approve of? Then follow the laws of the commons, which says you cannot discriminate. Because those folks are ALSO paying taxes for the roads and services you use to run your stupid bakery.
Don't want to do that? Fine, sell your shit on Ebay, where you don't even have to LOOK at a customer.
But please shut the fuck UP about your personal beliefs. No one coming in to your shop to order a cake gives a shit.
Can you discriminate against somebody who's just an asshole? Can you refuse to serve some Spicoli who's not wearing a shirt and refuses to put one on because his new tattoo and nipple ring won't be visible then?
Your argument for equality is not without merit, it's just that it's better left to the market and private enterprise to sort it out. Businesses who don't treat customers well usually don't last long, and there's actually third party platforms like Yelp to help spread the word better than before. One could even argue that if the market had that much demand for gay wedding cakes, a new company could do well with that segment alone as a marketing niche.
A true free market is almost always the answer, while the government is usually never the answer.
Submit to the collective, even if we don't know who that is.
Did we vote to force people to serve others without the ability to discriminate, and I missed it? Or are we just ruled by our betters?
Everyone disparages their loss of rights until their rights take precedence over others. Then its about doing what's right.
I have created a business plan for a small business that is truly revolutionary to the industry which I have operated for the past 23 years. But there's no incentive for me to take the risk in a world that is completely manipulated while using a fraudulent currency as a measure of accounting. On top of all of that as evidenced by this ruling, there is absolutely ZERO protection within the law.
So instead of excitedly working my ass off creating a new business, I spend my free time waiting for collapse because I DO NOT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT. I just wonder how many others out there are just like me?
Not many.
I have owned a small business for thirty years, and yes, this shit is hanging over every responsible person's head. while I have continued on with my work, more up then down, I look at everything through the lens of economic collapse, avoiding unnecessary risks, deferring any hiring until it is absolutely needed. It is a weight, a substantial one from what I hear from others, and I think has a lot to do with where we are now. The economy is a direct reflection of our confidence, and it is more than obvious that this confidence is what our government has invested everything.Unfortunately confidence is not just based on a mood, but is also based on reality. We cannot simply create confidence without substance for any length of time. Until this"substance" is provided,everything will remain spastic, almost bipolar.
Bitcoin take a huge shit today (over 15%) and ZH is silent on thie event...
I can't stand Bitcoin stories but this one is the first one to matter in a while.
If The Homos want to get married I don't care. Just more business for scumbag divorce lawyers.
They want me to bake them a wedding cake? I never baked a fucking cake in my whole entire life. I don't do cakes.
I have the right to not bake cakes. Period.
No problems, only solutions. Stay positive and focused. So you don't want to do biz with queers, but don't want to run into trouble with big brother either, so here is how you solve this quandary: First, keep a big painted on grin on your face while dealing with queer couple. Speak to them like you would a family member. Take their order and deposit. Then COMPLETELY fuck up their cake. Present the cake to them like it is your masterpiece. When they freak out and threaten you, break out into tears and tell them how sorry you are they are dissatisfied. But becareful at this point; NEVER admit the cake is fucked, tell them it is your baby, but they owe you nothing for the cake. I can guarantee you this: Word will spread like wildfire through the queer community NOT TO USE YOUR BAKERY. You'll never have to worry about queer business ever again. See, this way you have not denied them service, you just provided them with shit service, and the last time I checked, that is not against the law {yet}.
This is the least problem with the property rights.
Read this!!!
https://contrarianopinion.wordpress.com/2015/01/19/property-of-none/
The following experiment should be conducted: someone go into the Rainbow Unicorn gay bookstore and try order a book....
Effeminate clerk: - Can I help you?
Customer: - Uh..yeah..Hi...I'm looking for this book..you might have heard of it..The Coming Gay Plague...not sure who wrote it..do you think you could order it for me?
Let's see how that goes...
Having said that;
The gay marriage ruling was all about corporate, SV gay elites having their ways with their enslaved employees nothing else.
People do not realize that lesbians now can marry girls 16 or even under 12 years old in some states. I see another SCOTUS equality case to allow marriage with less than 12 years old boys as long as they are in "love" determined by the court.
If love conquers all using billions of SV dollars soon polygamy will be hailed as struggle for equality, right to be loved by many people or animals or FB avatars.
http://rt.com/usa/271387-montana-polygamist-marriage-license/
All that typical liberalism meaning they are all for freedoms that could be bought with money stolen from somebody else, fuck the rest literally. And what self-proclaimed conservatives do, willingly bend over to corporate sodomy while saluting the US flag and clutching to Christian cross.
S-LGBT Wall Street oligarchs, Silicon Valley moguls they all want us exploited, subdued, submissive to their illustrious, enlightened rule, on our knees and you know what for, metaphorically and actually.
The sexuality is never the issue, power is the issue.
To hold power is to abuse power and that’s what we are witnessing.
"But, your honor, I love my goldfish...we want to be married an' shit."
"But your honor, you let the last guy marry his goldfish. Why can't I marry my X-Box?"
Does this mean that i can now go to a gay owned bakery and have them make a God Hates Fags cake for my barbeque party?
I believe that it does. They should bake that cake for you and be pleased with having your business. You should try that at a few bakeries in San Fransisco and take the first guy that refuses you to court.
FYI - I don't agree with the god hates fags thing just the equality thing.
Its a good idea and I am sure the gays would be very happy to bake a 'special' cake for you and present it to you with big smiles.
i hope the lgbt's are lining up at muslim bakeries as we speak
ha ha...would ANY bakery make a cake like that, nimrod? i rest my case
it was illegal to drink alcohol, then it was not,many drugs still are..homosexual lust was classified as a mental disorder by physicians , in america and most of the western world, then it was not. the .gov had no business in making either legal or illegal - nor does it have any reason telling a business who it must serve..using .gov to further your moral views violates human rights. for the homo lobby, violation is not a problem.
Double post
Sorry, this train left decades ago. You cannot refuse to serve someone because of their color either.
I'm disgusted, its almost like an anti Bigotry law!!....oh wait...
Yup, pretty draconian. Next thing you know, inter-racial marriages will be LEGAL. (Oops, they already are, my bad).
Yup, pretty draconian. Next thing you know, it will inter-racial marriages will be LEGAL. (Oops, they already are, my bad).
"What's that sir? You'd like a wedding cake for your big day? Ordinarily, not a problem. However, we've been snowed under with orders of late. The only way I can meet your timeframe is to 'sub' the order to another bakery we have an arrangement with. But there's a downside - there will most probably be an additional cost if we act as their 'agent'. But, you know what? You seem like a decent fellow, so here's the number/address of the other bakery, if you go direct it'll save you some money. Sorry we couldn't help you on this occassion."
...how hard is that?
If you can refuse to serve gays, you can refuse to serve blacks or Christians or Jews or Irish.
All based on the Bobble, of course.
21. You can not use the Constitution to defend yourself because you are not a party to it. (Padelford Fay & Co. v. The Mayor and Alderman of The City of Savannah 14 Georgia 438, 520)
22. America is a British Colony. (THE UNITED STATES IS A CORPORATION, NOT A LAND MASS AND IT EXISTED BEFORE THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR AND THE BRITISH TROOPS DID NOT LEAVE UNTIL 1796.) Respublica v. Sweers 1 Dallas 43, Treaty of Commerce 8 Stat 116, The Britain is owned by the Vatican.Society for Propagating the Gospel, &c. V. New Haven 8 Wheat 464, Treaty of Peace 8 Stat 80, IRS Publication 6209, Articles of Association October 20, 1774.)
23. Britain is owned by the Vatican. (Treaty of 1213)
https://dublinsmickdotcom.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/the-us-constitution-g...
*sigh*
Sigh all you want dickhead. Do you know of some case law we missed?
Is that a new hasbara phrase?
Does it mean you are incapable of a literate response?
Wow! This article brings out the Bobble Thumpers en masse. It's like a scene from a zombie movie.
I am not baptised and I don't go to church, but if someone does not want to make business with me, I am ok with it, I will not go to mammy and cry about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)
meanwhile, local, state and federal governments continue to provide preferences (discriminations, quotas) in employment, promotions and education based on race, color, etc.....
taxpayers fund muslim reflection room
http://www.ibtimes.com/muslim-prayer-room-orlando-airport-welcomes-all-f...
No problem, just piss in the cake.
1000 up votes
For that they should ask extra money
That would be stupid. They would be sued into oblivion. But I know what you mean. Maybe accidentally leave a few eggshell pieces in the cake.
The special 'fudge' frosting would be a nice touch.
http://www.politheo.com/thomasjefferson.html
So let me see if I have this correct - a buisiness is being forced to do buisiness with a customer it does not wish to do buisiness with and must treat all of its customers the same - even if the buisiness owners - do not like the customer in question?
So one will assume the US is going to start treating the Palistinians persicuted in GAZA as favourably as it does the ZIO Fascists illegally occupying Palistine?
Will now the USA start to treat Russia with the respect we all deserve?
Sausage Jockies or no Sausage Jockies - if a company does not want to enter into a contract with a customer for whatever reason - what has that to do with any court?
Would the court side with the company if it sued the customer for NOT buying its products because they were non gay?
Does the customer not have the right to discriminate between which company it chooses to hold a contract when purchasing its gay paraphinalia?
And if the customer has the that right to discriminate where it gets its gay paraphinalia - does the company not have the equal right to choose NOT to be forced to do gay paraphanalia - if it so chooses?
Clearly this court is barking mad!
How is this freedome to choose of you can not choose to say no!
Does a rape victim now have to take it up the bumb all because some filthy sausage jocky says so - or does the would be rape victim have a say?
The right to operate a business is not a property right
When you convert labor into money, it becomes property. This was settled when the income tax went to the supreme court.
It's a taking
I would like to see this lesbian couple go to a muslim bakery and ask for the same service and see if they have the nerve to sue them, these are sociopaths christian haters
Judge Roberts must have a young boy in a closet someplace
NO Property rights is a stupid way to charaterise this. A store open to the public is an "invitation to treat" with the public which is how a business functions.
As a property "right" they have the right not to open, or to live there or to turn it into any other facility deemed by the state appropriate to that zone
Having said that I dont see similar cases popping up where muslim bakeries are being asked to bake products with alcohol in them or a cake that constitutes an image of mohommad so I do think this is a rather selective approach by some groups to vilify christians( who Im generally not a fan of anyway).
The comparison is idiocy.
The bakery offers cakes, this was not a 'gay' cake, but a cake, just a cake like all the others.
A muslim bakery does not make products with alcohol in it - are you suggesting they shoul dbe forced to offer a product which they don't? Would you make a vegetarian food joint serve meat too?
Your poor example shows you have a lack of understanding of reason and logic - which has been applied in this case.
please answer me this - if i have a restaurant and make a rule to only serve the white men.
Is it ok ? Should the government let it be or should it intervene ? Close the restaurant ? Nationalize it ?
Am i rasist ? Yes.
Does it mean i can not be an owner of the restaurant ?
I worked in an auto repair shop years ago. ONe day we had a customer who was a real asshole and the boss just kept tacking 100 dollars to the labor costs everytime he swore at us.
No he didn't. He gave a quote, as required by law, and you are a liar.
I know a lady in Germany who wants to change jobs, but can't. Because of Merkel socialism.
Consider what this would mean if it happens to you.
"We're queer and we have more rights than you, straighty."
If American bakeries started discriminating against ignorance, their client base would drop to about ten thousand.
Getting sick of the LGBT Nazis. I never had anything against gays but thats changing FAST.
It's not the 99% of faggots, dykes, and homosexuals that are the problem.
It's the 1% radicals and profiteers that are the problem.
Then why won't the 99% say something?
Hum, what about our fav food joints that say "No shoes, no shirt, no service"? Are they too, liable to be sued?
Correct, they are discrminating against hillbillies.
The bakery could put up sign
Cakes for special occasions 100 dollars and upwards*
*Management reserves the right to define special occasion.
i.e. So you want a cake for a ''gay'' wedding? Thats quite a special occasion, Sir That cake will cost you 500 dollars plus tax.
You say ,''thats outrageous''? Yes, but there are other bakeries you could go to. So, its your choice, sir.
BTW, sir, would you like real semen for the frosting? We can do that also for 300 dollars extra.
Once again the free market evangelist demands the override the rights of humans with the forces of the market.
So where does this end? I don't like anyone who I don't consider white - should I be allowed to refuse to serve based on ethnicity? What if I don't like men, or Christians, is it ok to refuse to serve to them too?
Chances are at the end of this we will all starve - wel done to those who believe the word of god before the the word of man - except only one of those exists you dumbasses.
Are you white? Go get a scholarship for the Black College Fund.
What is "free market" about denying products and services to "certain people?" If you are open for business TO THE PUBLIC, you have no right to refuse service to any person based on race, creed or sexual orientation. It really is that effing simple. You don't like certain people? Open as a private (members only) club.
I remember years ago many businesses had sign ''WE reserve the right to ......'''
Remember that?
The definition of "free" would have to exclude gov't coercion. As a business owner, I happily serve good paying customers regardless of how they use their genital in private settings. However, I do not support the idea that certain groups should get protection from the real world. Everyone discriminates, for me it's face tattoos, lucky me, the gov't hasn't been lobbied by the face tattoo coalition.
I like to see sign
'Those wearing pants hanging off their ass with the rear pockets at knee level will not be served''
Those wearing a baseball cap sideways or backwards will not be served.
Those who pronounce ASK as AXE. will not be served. (because AXEING something is a terrorist act)
These homosexuals are going to reap what they have sown.
Society is not going to tolerate being dictated to by litigious bunch of queers. If the courts decide to side with the queers, society will decide otherwise.
Homosexuals will only have themselves to blame when this happens.
Everything I needed to know, I learned from "The Rocky Horror Picture Show."
It's freaky to watch it now. It's a real OMG moment.
The USA govt is also using the LGBT Nazis to foment hatred against Russia. Saying that Russia hates gays etc.
They tried it before the Sochi Olympics when the gays tried to get people to boycott the Olympics.
But here is the TRUTH about Russia's laws as per homosexuals.
It is NOT illegal to be GAY in Russia.
It IS illegal to teach gay lifestyle to children in Russia.
The VERY SAME LAW the UK had on the books for years.
One of the bug mistakes made in baking is that salt and sugar look the same.
Not to mention that Visine squirted in someones coffee gives a massive case of the 'shits''
This is why "social contract" theory is so popular among theorists.
Fine, place the signed contracts into evidence that creates the fiduciary relationship that invokes equity jurisdiction (compelled proformance).
5th Amendment
nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of LAW;
The officers of government are in fact the trustees of the public trust and are the only ones owing any fiduciary duty!
Replace gay with black. Now do you understand why this discrimination is wrong? It's not about the right to contract because you are a public accommodation offering services to the public at large.
NO!
The services are offered to the public, but do not belong by any right to the "public at large" except taxpayer provided services like roads, etc. Privately held services belong to the owner, and he has a right to freedom of association, among others.
You seem to think that replacing "Black" in the matter above clarifies the moral implications. It does no such thing. One doesn't have to dislike blacks to understand that a white guy doesn't have to serve them from his establishment if he doesn't want to. The reverse is just as true for a black property owner.
Don't offer your services to the public, but work by private contract only. Put a sign in your window. Now what?
When I hire, I discriminate against stupid people. When I rent a house out, I discriminate against people with face tattoos. Obviously the court is discriminating against the bakers religious beliefs. Discrimination happens all around you every day, but you've been programmed to think that gov't defined categories are more important than other forms. I'm not sure that sexual preference is more important than religious beliefs. I'm not anti-gay in any manner, but I don't support the use of gov't force for religious discrimination.
sucking another mans dickmis a choice, being black, not so much.
Nonsense. You are offering services to one entity that is expected to pay the bill. Who's going to pay for your time, when the invoice addresses the "public at large"
Our Zionist masters will do whatever it takes to destroy white Christian America......Stupid white Christians are not paying attention.